“Young Gun” in Hiding

“Young Gun” Congressman Eric Cantor could see his blossoming political career grow even bigger next Tuesday if Republicans win control of the House of Representatives where Cantor serves House Minority Whip.

Some 116 seats are in play and pundits are betting on a GOP victory with Democrats keeping the Senate. If that happens, Cantor, 7th District Congressman and darling of the Richmond business elite, could become the next House majority leader. In that position, reports The Wall Street Journal, he would be in “the second most powerful post in that chamber behind the speaker. And he could be Barack Obama’s worst nightmare.”

Should that happen, Cantor has vowed to become a truth squad and ethics disciplinarian against President Barack Obama and the Democratic Party. Cantor has the endorsement of the Richmond Times-Dispatch owned by Media General where Cantor’s wife, Diana, serves as a director (just coincidental, the TD reminds us).

Yet Cantor has been taking a few lumps. The increasingly powerful Tea Party is clearly anti-Cantor, claiming that he’s just another big-spending Main Street Republican. His refusal to debate his opponents raises questions about his newly-found populism.

Plus, Cantor, 47, may be one of the few Congressmen ever to get drubbing in a New York Times Book Review article. In an assessment of his book “Young Guns” that he co-wrote with two fellow Republican Congressmen, Cantor notes that both Democrats and Republicans agree that health care is in need of fixing.

“Well great,” reviewer Christopher Caldwell wrote Sunday, “But for years now Republicans discussing the availability and cost of health care have been like a kid who, when asked why he hasn’t cleaned up his room, replies, “I was just about to!”

Not wanting to risk debates, Cantor risks come ugly campaign scenes. One happened Monday in Louisa where he appeared in a small coffee shop, supposedly to meet voters.

One man attending was John Taylor, a member of the Louisa County Democratic Committee and backer of Rick Waugh, Cantor’s Democratic opponent. Taylor and two others were asked to leave the coffee shop, told that it was sudenly “private property.” County police then subdued Taylor, as can be scene in this video shot by his son with his cell phone.

Events like these raise questions about the decorum of the man who would be in such a powerful position on Capitol Hill. If Cantor says he wants to debate voters, as he did emphatically during his “Young Guns” book tour, he should do so and not hide behind GOP gatekeepers, a newspaper where his wife has influence and a rural police department.

Peter Galuszka


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45 responses to ““Young Gun” in Hiding”

  1. I've not heard one word of support of Cantor from the self-proclaimed conservatives on this blog.

    Let's hear some support of Cantor from the conservatives.

    My view?

    Cantor is the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    and I'm betting that Conservatives think the same.

  2. "…vowed to become a truth squad and ethics disciplinarian against President Barack Obama and the Democratic Party…."

    ================================

    If this is tue then he has prejudiced the issue, which is hardly an ethical or truthful position to take.

    Truth is a state of being, not a weapon to be used "against" someone. Both sides need to accept real evidence (as opposed to someones opinion) with equanimity, and adjust their position in reality accordingly.

    For example, Montgomery County has long had inclusionary zoning laws which equire developers to provide a certain number of less expensive units in their developments.

    A recent study of factors that improved school performance showed that the leading indicator was what neighbor hood a child lived in. Teachers unions might not like that truth, but apparently having excellent facilities and outstanding teachers is not as important as where the child sleeps.

    Cantor might dislike such inclusionary zoning regulations, but he should accept the reality of their results.

    Otherwise, he is everybody's worst nightmare.

  3. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Cantor is a conventional establishment Republican. He's less dangerous than Democrats, in that he at least purports to believe in small government and fiscal discipline, beliefs that may act as a modest brake on the natural spending and regulating proclivities of every congressman. But I have yet to see him propose any creative policy ideas. And I do not see him as a forceful advocate of fiscally conservative principles.

    Cantor was one of the Republicans who attached their name to the "Pledge to America" document outlining the principles by which a House Republican majority will rule in 2011. I found it to be a modest but inadequate move in the right direction: rolling back spending by $100 billion a year and repealing Obamacare.

    Trouble is, we need to close the budget gap by $1 trillion, and if we repeal Obamacare, we have to replace it with something.

    Putting a lightweight like Cantor in a position of power might slow America's descent to Boomergeddon by a year or two, but I do not see Cantor transforming the political culture of Washington, D.C. Cantor does not have the "right stuff" to avert the final reckoning.

  4. CEO_Nick Avatar

    I am all for him if he really is going to be someone to help keep Obama and his wreckless spending in check. Some of our best presidents run the country like it's a business while others do not. Everyone knows that conflict and playing devils advocate can force creativity and new ideas which is something our nation sorely needs. If we want things to get better it is going to have to start with unemployment, small business and then the economy will fall into place.

    About a year ago I was thinking about laying off several employees from my business. I knew that by laying people off to cut costs I might be hurting my business in the long run. I decided to call Action Coach a professional business coaching firm and they really helped me restructure my business. I ended up hiring several new employees and I havent looked back since. If you want more info on them go to http://www.coachmybusiness.net

    Basically what I am saying above is that every business owner needs to think about the future of their company before making these short term decisions. Hopefully our government will assist businesses in giving tax cuts for new hires or something along these lines, but the way things are going, our future sure looks glim.

  5. re: "rolling back spending by $100 billion a year"

    verses a trillion – yes.

    I'm not even sure what the 100 billion cuts were….

    Obama_Care is scored as saving a billion dollars.

    You can doubt the CBO if you want but I do ask that you consistently do so and not use CBO when it suites you and disavow it when it does not.

    So which is it?

    If you don't believe CBO then who are you getting your numbers from on Obama_Care?

    we continue to have confusion here over what the here and now is with respect ot non-entitlement govt deficits …and entitlements and PROJECTED entitlement deficits.

    I consider it dishonest to not be explicit about the deficits – the here and now deficits and how we deal with them.

    We will deal with entitlements as a separate issue as FICS taxes have absolutely nothing to do with General Govt budgets.

    None of the Republicans to date are honest about this with the possible exception of Paul Ryan and Ron Paul.

    The rest of them including Cantor are dishonest as the day is long and they are lying right now about how they would fix the deficit.

    and folks like Jim Bacon know this.

  6. @CEO_Nick –

    tell me what the Republicans did in the prior 8 years to curb reckless spending and to generate jobs?

    what do you expect them to do come November than they did not do in the prior 8 years?

    ya'll are living in a dream world.

    The Republicans are frauds!

    and you know it.

    You can't cut taxes any lower – they're lower than in the past 50 years and most economists say that fundamentally this is the root of the govt deficit.

    The Republicans have done absolutely nothing to trim govt to match the revenues now lowered due to the tax cuts.

    Ya'll have an idealogical view of the world but you don't bring it to the table when we deal with deficits….

    it becomes a belief … a myth… because the truth is the Republicans had plenty of time to deal with the issues and they did not and it's the same crowd now telling you about the "pledge".

    How many ways can I spell RUBE?

  7. Anonymous Avatar

    From the perspective of this life-long independent, Larry G. continues to make a fool of those who say there is any reason to vote for Reps rather than Demos based on past experience.

    For me Dr. Risse’s AntiPartisan Voters Guide # 2 make sense for Young Gun Cantor.

    In fact it seems like any other choice would be uncivilized.

    The only other choice would be to write in either Mr. Bacon or Mr. Gooze.

    Observer

  8. Repeal Obamacare and replace it with what?

  9. reckless

    Do you have any idea how big what we consider small businees can be?

    We are not talking about opening up a bunch of new nail salons to get this country back on track.

    Funny how much you hear about development now and how little you hear about conservation. This is when you figure out that the best conservation projects make money and represent real development.

  10. replace Obama_Care with what?

    with what the Republicans did not getting around to doing in the prior 16 years that they opposed Hillary-Care and promised to deliver their version.

    In other words – NOTHING.

    The Republicans have had "ideas" from day one of their opposition to Hillary_care and here we are 16 years later and they still have "ideas" for HC when they repeal Obama_Care.

    I said it before.

    The Republicans are FRAUDS!

    They are OPPOSED to the govt being involved in health care in the first place.

    And if they stood on that position – they'd not get elected.

    That's the truth.

    The only way the Republicans can get elected is by promising a "Replace" to their "Repeal" promise..

    The fundamental question that the Republicans refuse to honestly deal with is this:

    Do the American people want the govt out of health care altogether and let each person use their income to make their own arrangements?

    I'm talking about the elderly, the folks who use ERs, even the families of soldiers and of course all of those who get tax-free employer-provided health care.

    Should we get the govt out of health care?

    yes or no.

    I think the American people – would say HELL NO to any candidate that came right out and said this was their position.

    So the Republicans basically lie to the American people.

    They say they want to "fix" health care but their idea of a "fix" is to get the govt out of it.

    right?

    come on you Obama_Care haters – fess up and tell the truth here.

  11. Roob
    Rhub
    Rhewb

    You know why Republican starts with R?

    That's the sound a con man makes while he is feeding you to the sharks.

  12. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry, you are wrong to say the Republicans did nothing on health care before Obama. For better or worse, the Bush administration enacted Medicare Part D drug coverage as well as SCHIP coverage for children. Bush also tried to expand health savings accounts, and enact tort reform, which the Dems shot shot down.

    Here's a Heritage Foundation discussion of Bush initiatives: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2004/10/An-Examination-of-the-Bush-Health-Care-Agenda.

    So, please take a deep breath, calm down, try to stop hyperventilating, and drop the "Republicans-did-nothing" meme.

    You can discuss whether the ideas were good or bad, but they were not nothing. If you had any objectivity about you, you'd praise Bush for his vigorous expansion of the welfare state. As for me, that's one of the reasons why I look back on his domestic record as a failure.

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    Write in James A Bacon for Congress.

    Pass it on.

    A Friend

  14. Groveton Avatar

    I feel the same way about Eric Cantor as I feel about Jim Webb – not a big part of the problem but not a big part of the solution, either. Ditto for Frank Wolf.

    What do these guys actually do in the time between elections?

    Recently, I have begun to receive some e-mail from Mark Warner. The e-mail went to hundreds of thousands of people. I decided to read what Sen. Warner has been doing. Not bad. I might slowly start forgiving him for his tenure as governor if he keeps up the good work. At least he can claim that he tried to make a difference while he was in office.

    Does Eric Cantor represent his district well? I don't know. I guess so since he gets elected. Is he a national caliber leader? Not in my book.

    As for writing in Jim Bacon…

    Given my choice between Frank "don't look for me until October in an election year" Wolf and Jeff "Who?" Barnett – maybe Bacon will get a vote in Northern Virginia.

  15. Jim – Medicare part D was not paid for – it takes it's subsidy from Medicare – pushing it even deeper into longer term sustainability problems.

    In other words instead of helping to secure Medicare – they further undermined it.

    And I cannot believe you are claiming that the Republicans supported SCHIPS.

    Jim – you must know that the Republicans opposed it – in force.

    Again – are we being honest here about what the Republicans actually did in SUPPORT of health care.

  16. health savings accounts won't help people who have pre-existing conditions and they won't help people who cannot afford even minimal insurance.

    If we did away with Medicare and replaced it with health savings accounts for the elderly what would happen?

    what would we do with the people who did not create health savings accounts or did but did not put sufficient money in them to sustain their retirement years and how would those savings accounts deal with insurance companies who refused to cover the elderly or required a thousand or five thousand dollars a month for coverage?

    That's the problem with the Republican approach.

    They have no solutions to the real problems and if we followed their approach – we'd have elderly people simply dying at the steps of ERs – because they could not afford insurance at all.

    How many people would actually vote for a plan like this?

    be truthful.

    how many people – right now – if they knew the replacement plan for Medicare would be health savings accounts would vote for candidates that promised to do this?

    My view is that if candidates – like Mr. Cantor honestly came out and said this is what he supported – he'd be gone on the next election cycle.

  17. As bad as it is for health care and the Republicans – it's worse for non-entitlement govt deficits.

    Because most Republicans say that the reason the govt is in deficit is entitlement programs.

    which is simply not the truth.

    but as they say – if you repeat something often enough – with the help of media like FAUX News, people will believe it.

    But it's downright comical when you ask these folks for the facts.

    All they can manage is to repeat the Blather than comes from the right wing media – and that is that Govt Deficits are driven by the "broke" entitlement programs – Medicare and SS.

    How can we – as a country – even begin to deal with the actual problems if a majority of people who lean right don't even understand the basic facts and basically believe things that are simply not true?

    These folks believe that if we cut SS and Medicare it will take care of our trillion dollar annual deficit.

    These same folks think that taxes are higher now than any point in the past – when the reality is that taxes are lower now than in the past 50 years.

    These people believe that govt has grown tremendously when the facts are that govt is no bigger now than a decade ago.

    These folks – if you press them really hard – cannot come up with more than 100 billion in cuts in general government and yet they believe that the Republicans are going to find one trillion in govt spending to cut when even the Republicans themselves cannot identify more than 100 billion in cuts.

    Name ONE Republican that has actually identified one trillion in cuts for general govt besides Paul Ryan and Ron Paul.

    Has Eric Cantor ?

    Nope.

    The man is fraud.

    Has John Boehner?

    Nope.

    Mitch McConnell?

    nope

    how many who signed the "Pledge" have identified one trillion in cuts?

    and people are going to vote for these guys so they will fix the deficit?

    ha ha ha…

    This is truly Alice in Wonderland.

  18. I can accept, even agree with part of a conservative philosophy with respect governance – and even budget but what I cannot accept is the fundamental dishonesty in the Republican positions where they promote themselves as fiscal conservatives but when they run for office or even get elected will not deliver the fiscal conservative goods.

    If Republicans truly disclosed their actual philosophical beliefs in government – and translated that into promised actions – they'd be honest – and out of office.

    Instead they play games.

    Why not stand on the philosophy that the government should be involved in health care – per their real beliefs?

    Tell the American people that it's wrong for the govt to be doing health care and that if elected – they will take the path that will stop further involvement and roll back previous involvement.

    Where has Eric Cantor said that?

    Where has the Republican leadership said that?

    Instead what do we get?

    We get "ideas" like tort reform an health savings accounts.

    Only a few tea party folks like Rand Paul and Sharon whats-her-face have actually come out and promised to get rid of Medicare – and what do the "party" Republicans like Eric Cantor and John Boehner and Mitch McConnell do when they say this?

    Well.. their hair catches on fire and they run and hide.

    Tell me – pray tell – what Eric Cantors position on health care is and what he would do besides repeal Obama Care?

    Has anyone got his position available to post here?

  19. Groveton Avatar

    "Name ONE Republican that has actually identified one trillion in cuts for general govt besides Paul Ryan and Ron Paul.".

    "Only a few tea party folks like Rand Paul and Sharon whats-her-face have actually come out and promised to get rid of Medicare – …".

    Ron Paul, Paul Ryan, Rand Paul and Sharon Angle …

    That's four Republicans who have put forth various plans to cut the size of government.

    Does each and every Republican need to send you a hand written note?

    LarryG – either disagree with the plans or stop claiming there are no plans while you list Republicans who have put forth plans.

    If this blog were a computer your posts would be full of compiler errors. I can't even get to the flawed logic in the face of the contradictory rhetoric.

  20. " either disagree with the plans or stop claiming there are no plans while you list Republicans who have put forth plans"

    I already named 3 of the 4 Groveton.

    I'm asking what the Republican Party plan is – not these individual ones.

    do you think the Republican Party plan is to get rid of Medicare?

    If that is their intent – how many voters do you think know it?

    this is my point.

    What is the Republican Plan for Medicare and what will they propose to replace Obama_Care and how many voters who are going to vote for them – KNOW?

    For instance…

    Mr. Cantor –

    what is his position on Medicare?

    Do you think Mr. Cantor will vote to dissolve Medicare?

    how many people who will vote for him know his position on Medicare?

    do you?

  21. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    Why did we/do we need healthcare reform? Was it one of those 'rights' that I keep hearing the liberals scream about? If so then we are back to the 'where do you draw the line' problem.

    You can live a LOT longer without healthcare than you can live without water, food or adequate shelter. Yet the liberals scream that we HAVE to give EVERYONE healthcare but fail to scream (at least fail to scream yet) about the other three elements of living that I just listed.

    Another posting talks about college education. Obama stumped on this during his election, again he talked about it as some sort of right. No, it's not a right, nor is driving a right, nor is marriage a right, nor is healthcare a right. They are things that you earn. You earn the privledge to obtain these things, you don't have a RIGHT to them just because you were born here (or became a citizen here).

    You have a RIGHT to pratice or not practice a religion. You have a RIGHT to speak your mind. We have many RIGHTS in this country but water, food, shelter, healthcare, marriage, driving and a higher education are not among them.

  22. Accurate – I'm not sure you ought to try to keep a straight face when asking why do we need health care reform.

    Even the most severe critics of Obama_Care admit there are problems.

    Just because you have your health care taken care of does not mean millions of others have their needs taken care of.

    And you pay for them.

    not just the cost of their health care – but twice to four times as much because we have another law called EMTALA that requires you to pay.

    Even if you don't care about those who don't have health care – you ought to care about your own and the doubling of the costs… of it..caused by cost-shifting to pay for those who don't have any.

    Now if you want to elect people to repeal not only ObamaCare but EMTALA – have at it.

    As good as it would be to hear Republicans come out promising to get rid of Medicare – it would be doubly fun watching them add EMTALA to the list.

  23. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    I never claimed that our healthcare worked for everyone, although NO ONE in the USA has been turned away when they showed up at the emergency ward and needed medical care. However, like most everything else in the WORLD it could use some work.

    By the same token, we have had the most innovations in the country BECAUSE of the way healthcare was run. We have dignitaries from other countries come here (rather than stay in thier own socialist healthcare systems) to have certain operations BECAUSE we ARE the best – bar none.

    As for the costs of my heathcare, gee, from what I'm hearing it's the additional costs of Obamacare that is making insurance premiums jump 15%, 20%, 35% – I'll argue this one with you all day.

    BTW – you didn't tell me why we need to be funding healthcare for EVERYONE when any of those other 3 items will kill you faster than your lack of healthcare. Don't change the subject, answer why we aren't presently guaranteeing that every man, woman and child has adequate water, food and shelter.

  24. Accurate – you and anyone else with health care are ALWAYS FREE to spend your own money on "better" care.

    the idea of health care is to serve those who have no alternatives at all other than the ER – at 4 times the cost – and you pay for it.

    You're living in a dream world on the innovations.

    we only have the Best care for the folks that can afford it.

    Others die from not being able to get MINIMAL health care.

    Much of the advances in Medicine these days is occurring in other countries.

    On the costs… BEFORE there was such a thing as ObamaCare the costs had already doubled in a decade and were projected to double again in another decade.

    this was BEFORE the phrase Obamacare saw the light of day.

    look it up guy.

    just do a simple google… or I'll supply you with a dozen links that verify this.

    you can argue all day but you'd be wrong…you're just reading too many right-wing blogs guy.

    Accurate – we rank 29th in the world in life expectancy – next to Cuba.

    EVERY SINGLE industrialized country in the world – all of them with universal health care beat us in life expectancy and pay 1/2 the costs.

    that's a fact.

    You get your own healthcare from taxpayers – right?

    or do you buy your own?

  25. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    Your starting to tick me off. Time to take you down a knotch or two.

    "other than the ER – at 4 times the cost – and you pay for it." Yes, I know that, but it's still cheaper than what Obamacare is doing and going to do to us; not to mention that Obamacare will reduce the quality of the care, there is no way around it. Yes, again, there did need to be some adjustments but Obamacare is a disaster and Obama and the democrats should have been ashamed.

    "You're living in a dream world on the innovations." True and they will disappear under Obama, again there is no other choice.

    "we only have the Best care for the folks that can afford it." Really? I know of bums who were picked up off the street and needed by-pass surgery and it was given. In fact, one of the problems has been that after high quality treatment has been administered the bum has to go back and live on the street which isn't condusive to recovery after surgery – so I'm back to why don't you (liberals) insist on MANDATORY adequate shelter?

    "Others die from not being able to get MINIMAL health care." Why? Most of them have no problem getting an ambulance to take them to ER.

    "Much of the advances in Medicine these days is occurring in other countries." Care to offer some proof of that??

    (end part one)

  26. Accurate Avatar

    (start part two)

    "On the costs… BEFORE there was such a thing as ObamaCare the costs had already doubled in a decade and were projected to double again in another decade." Agreed, just as EVERYTHING has gone up, but rarely (if ever) has it skyrocketed like it has since the insurance companies have had to start gearing up for Obamacare.

    "you can argue all day but you'd be wrong…you're just reading too many right-wing blogs guy." And you obviously spend too much time on the Huffington Post.

    "Accurate – we rank 29th in the world in life expectancy – next to Cuba." Care to explain why? We have more traffic mortalities than any other country. We have more drug deaths, more obesity deaths, more gun shot deaths, etc. because we have more freedoms – for all the good and bad that that entails. Would I rather live in a socialist country that controls more of those factors or have them be a possible factor in my mortality? My freedom is worth much more than a longer life under a socialist government.

    "EVERY SINGLE industrialized country in the world – all of them with universal health care beat us in life expectancy and pay 1/2 the costs." And the care is inferior, and the opportunity to better yourself in those countries less.

    "You get your own healthcare from taxpayers – right?" I get my healthcare from my employer. My present employer is a city but my previous employer wasn't and my heathcare was through them. In both cases I had to pay monthly premiums and co-pays as most of us do. If my department/division is privatized and I'm held over, my new healthcare would be whatever THAT employer offered (I don't really have a choice here – in the past I've worked for company's that did offer choices).

  27. "yes, again, there did need to be some adjustments but Obamacare is a disaster and Obama and the democrats should have been"

    given than people took knives to it in an attempt to kill it not surprising and even Medicare and SCHIPs and Tricare needed time to get the kinks out.

    Were you opposed to Medicare from the get go also?

    re: "care to offer proof":

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/118423/americans-consider-crossing-borders-medical-care.aspx

    many other examples. just google

    the rise in health care was documented long before ObamaCare.

    ObamaCare has not even kicked in yet. How do you know that these companies would not be doing this anyhow?

    I don't read the Huffington Post or hardly any left-leaning blogs but I do read the right-winger blogs and I know the arguments that are promoted.

    The "socialism" word is blather especially when used in the face of clear statistics that others live longer than us and pay less for health care.

    That's not "freedom". You're confused. that's DUMB.

    their care is not inferior compared to the folks in this country who don't get care until they are forced to go to ERs for palliative treatment after the disease has ravaged them.

    Accurate what would you do if your employer stopped offering health care?

    what would you do for health care?

    what would happen if you got a pre-existing condition and had to change jobs?

    You are one bad luck away from no health care and on your own and you are basically focusing your jobs prospects on companies that offer health care.

    What happens if that changes?

    what are your options if you end up having to get your own health care?

    Why don't the employers give you money and let you go buy your own health care?

    That's what a lot of people have to do Accurate.

    do you support Medicare?

  28. whose health care plan is this?

    • Lowering health care premiums. The XXX plan will lower health care premiums for American families and small businesses, addressing Americans’ number-one priority for health care reform.

    • Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The XXX plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.

    • Ending junk lawsuits. The XXX plan would help end costly junk lawsuits and curb defensive medicine by enacting medical liability reforms modeled after the successful state laws of California and Texas.

    • Prevents insurers from unjustly cancelling a policy. The XXX plan prohibits an insurer from cancelling a policy unless a person commits fraud or conceals material facts about a health condition.

    • Encouraging Small Business Health Plans. The XXX plan gives small businesses the power to pool together and offer health care at lower prices, just as corporations and labor unions do.

    • Encouraging innovative state programs. The XXX plan rewards innovation by providing incentive payments to states that reduce premiums and the number of uninsured.

    • Allowing Americans to buy insurance across state lines. The XXX plan allows Americans to shop for coverage from coast to coast by allowing Americans living in one state to purchase insurance in another.

    • Promoting healthier lifestyles. The XXX plan promotes prevention & wellness by giving employers greater flexibility to financially reward employees who adopt healthier lifestyles.

    • Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). The XXX plan creates new incentives to save for current and future health care needs by allowing qualified participants to use HSA funds to pay premiums for high deductible health insurance.

    • Allowing dependents to remain on their parents’ policies. The XXX plan encourages coverage of young adults on their parents’ insurance through age 25.

    so who proposed the above Health Care Plan?

  29. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    Sometimes you just don't know where to stop.

    I DO have two pre-existing conditions, one of which has the real possibility of putting me in the hospital (it never has but health insurance and life insurance always makes an issue out of it – the other one has the possibility of killing me with little or no warning). I have also been without health insurance twice during the last decade. Once for almost two years and once for about 6 months. During the two year hiatus I did have occasion to NEED medical care as did my daughter. We ended up going to a county sponsered health clinc that pretty much operates after-hours and is pretty much free operating on some tax dollars and donations. We were the only two white faces in a sea of Hispanic faces. We got seen and got medication for our ailments free of charge. Oh, and our wait was about 4 hours. It wasn't pleasant, it wasn't fun, it was necessary at the time and I was grateful that they were there. Later, when I was employed I sent them a donation. So yeah Larry, I've been there, have you???

    As for Medicare, don't really know much about it aside from a brother-in-law who is a doctor (oh, and my wife was a bookkeeper for another doctor). The word back from these two in the medical field is that Medicare doesn't cover the expenses that it costs to see Medicare patients. Give me a few years and I've heard that at age … 65? I have to go on it, basically because I'll be that age. I'm not looking forward to it but like most healthcare plans that I've been on all my life, the choices are typically this is what we offer, take it or leave it.

    As for the Americans crossing borders for healthcare read the articles. Most of the time its being done because the cost (what it will cost the patient out of pocket) ends up being cheaper, NOT that the medical treatment is better. When I had to have my gallbladder out (it had not ruptured but I was in pain on a fairly regular basis), I was in the hospital the next day and it was out. In Canada the same situation has those people waiting 3 to 6 months for the operation. The Canadian prime minister (of Newfoundland) comes here for heart surgery because why?? Let's quote him, "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics." "I would’ve been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. … I accept that. That’s public life," he said.

    Yeah, Larry, that's what I want a system so crowded that the wait even scares those in power. You want me to believe in Obamacare? Then get EVERY SINGLE Federal employee including the president and his family on it. Then and ONLY then will I believe that it might have some merit.

    BTW Larry, you STILL haven't addressed that we are going to pay for a bums treatment but without adequate food and shelter his recovery will be harder if not impossible. Are we going to provide that too?

  30. Accurate – I've been there with you on health care earlier in my life.

    Medicare was never designed to pay all expenses and should not and should require co-pays but it covers everyone and does not exclude anyone.

    Without Medicare, many seniors could not buy insurance because most companies would not cover them.

    Most employers, including your employer – and the taxpayers who fund it would be put in serious financial trouble if there was no Medicare and they had to attempt to provide insurance for their retirees.

    And that would, in turn, affect you and your existing insurance because of the costs.

    Obama_Care is also not intended to cover all costs nor is it intended to cover electives or other "frills" but just your basic care – primary care, preventative care and catastrophic care – but it would not exclude anyone AND

    just LIKE WITH MEDICARE – right now – YOU PAY for it …

    ObamaCare would require people to pay into a fund for the care that they will eventually need.

    Hardly anyone ends up making it to old age and dying without incurring costs for Medical Care yet most of us would avoid paying for it ahead of time if we could – except the govt won't let you and right now your paycheck has a block in it called FICA and you pay for your old age care right there.

    With Obama_Care and Medicare – you are FREE to buy supplemental insurance – and you are guaranteed the right to buy it – and with it you can get more/better care if that is your wish and beyond that if you want something they won't pay for you are free to go buy it.

    What you are NOT entitled to – is any level of care that you want for one low price – even with your current insurance.

    The way they deal with that is by denying treatments, higher co-pays and finally they dump people who get too expensive.

    continues….

  31. ….continued

    Any govt plan will also do all of those things except the last one – they will give minimal coverage even to those with costly problems.

    this is why it is called 'insurance' guy.

    you don't get your premiums back if you don't utilize them.

    just like with your auto insurance – you pay – to keep coverage in force and you don't get most of it back either – unless you have a loss.

    This is how every other industrialized country in the world does health care.

    you pay into it no matter what.

    you are guaranteed coverage.

    you don't get unlimited care but you do get a floor level of care.

    you are free to buy supplemental insurance and/or to use your own money anytime you wish to get more/better.

    People in those other countries that do this – they all live longer than us and they all pay 1/2 what we do for health care.

    When the insurance pool includes everyone – it is much more fiscally sustainable.

    It still has to manage costs.

    there will always be demographic and inflation pressures on it – worldwide.

    the same pressures, by the way that private insurance has.

    the difference is that private insurance sheds people as a way to contain costs.

    That's not only immoral but it's fiscally stupid because those people will then go to taxpayer-provided ERs and clinics – like you did which are costly financially and as you discovered time wise – which discourages people from seeking care until their situation is much worse – requiring much more expensive, even heroic treatment.

    and the bottom line here is that unless you are lucky enough to die before you need health care – most of us will – and how much that health care costs us – AND TAXPAYERS has a lot to do with your ability to access care regularly instead of only when you are in bad straights.

    You should support a universal system – for basic care that is more cost-effective than our current system. It's in your best interest long term.

    Unless you want to get rid of ER and Clinic care which are the big cost drivers for people who don't have insurance that gets passed on to people who do have insurance.

    My own health care for many, many years was the FEHB which has two universal features.

    The first is that there are about a dozen providers and they each offer low and high option plans.

    The second is that none of them, as a condition of participating, cannot deny coverage to anyone.

    These are the two essential elements that we should provide to every American in my view and it should be deducted in your FICA.

  32. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    Gee, thanks for the lesson, don't think I needed it, but thanks. The part you don't get about Obamacare is that NOT everyone will pay into it. The part I do get about auto insurance is that if I don't pay into it, I'm not insured. I also get that my insurance is higher than just my basic coverage due to the fact that I have to carry uninsured motorist coverage, even though by law we are all suppose to carry auto insurance (if we own and drive a car). I know that if I drive without insurance I have all sorts of consequences but it's a CHOICE. I EVEN have the choice of NOT DRIVING and not having to buy insurance.

    I also know that my healthcare insurance has an added, builtin extra cost because hospitals and doctors charge more to cover the cost of people who don't have insurance but use the system. I know all of that and I accept it, it's one of those 'acceptable conditions' that we learn to live with and deal with in life. What I don't need is the government telling me what my bottom coverage is. I don't need or want to HAVE to contribute funds so someone can buy a plan that includes abortion. I don't need or want to have to contribute funds so someone can get Viagra or birth control meds. I don't need to add more and more and more layers of government workers and paperwork (yeah I know they are going to the electronic records and we see how well government does most things) to a system that already works.

    The system needed some re-work. The bill that Obama came up with is HORRIBLE. No, I don't want to use that as a starting point, it's akin to saying "Well, at least Mussolini made the trains run on time, we'll take that as a starting point." I don't think so!

    Yes there were some good things in the bill, but they were put in without regard to fiscal sense. Yes, there are 'death panels' but they don't carry that name. Take my bum that I keep bringing into the ER who needs by-pass surgery. As it stands today, the vast majority of the time he will get the surgury; and you still haven't addressed what WE owe him to help him after the surgery. When the 'death panels' take over, they are going to judge him as too old, or too far gone, or no real use to society and will deny the surgery.

    No Larry, Obamacare sucks. Universal healthcare means poor quality, long lines and rationing and that is EXACTLY how it's working out in all those other countries that you seem to like so well. Oh there are other ways and no, I doubt that the government will ever come to a good agreement about it, but what they have given us is NASTY and the foreseen consequences as well as the unforeseen consequences to come are in a word – HORRIBLE.

    Single payer and universal aka 'one size fits all' – never has worked and basically never will work.

  33. " The system needed some re-work"

    your buddies had 16 years to do it and did not. They killed the attempts by Clinton and did not "re-work" anything and they tried to kill this attempt and what they succeeded in doing was making it truly ugly and if they "repeal" it you can bet they won't be "replacing" or "re-working" it this go around either because folks like you really don't care if they do nothing about it anyhow since you already have yours.

    I do NOT think that Obama_Care is a perfect health care plan but it is likely the only start that we'll get because your buddies are essentially fundamentally opposed to govt health care to start with.

    They opposed Medicare (which I suspect your parents are on) and they opposed SCHIPs and MEDICAID.

    If they wanted to do something..they had plenty of opportunity before and passed on it.

  34. Accurate – you say you went to a govt clinic once?

    you mean you took that nasty "minimal" govt health care instead of going out getting your own?

    why?

    did you consider yourself lazy and expecting entitlements when you did that?

    do you think it is possible that there are other people in this world just like you – trying to do the right thing but sometimes ending up in a bad situation?

  35. Anonymous Avatar

    He's a TARP bailout pussy. Exactly what is wrong with the Republican party. And a total chickenhawk. I hope he gets his ass reamed in the 2012 primary.

  36. Accurate Avatar

    Larry –
    Both my parents have passed long ago, thank you. As for my going to the government clinic, you proved my point. No, I didn't pay for private insurance because I could barely make ends meet (try $10 an hour before taxes with no benefits). The case was the same for all those Hispanics in the room – BUT – we all had healthcare there; at virtually no cost to us. The healthcare was what you would expect when you can't afford to pay for it, but it was there. You had to wait for it, but it was there. It was there because of tax dollars and because of the 'extra money' that is charged to people who do have health insurance.

    As I stated earlier, I realize that my healthcare policy does have this extra cost builtin – okay I accept that. What I don't accept is that you want us all to spend even more money to try to get all of us (unless you want to spend more and more money) to that same degree of care that I experienced there. So the bottom line is that as the system sits BEFORE Obamacare, people could get the healthcare that they needed. Taxpayers and those with healthcare paid a little more so those without could get help. With Obamacare, we will pay even MORE than what we are now, the quality will go down for those who use to have private healthcare insurance and the wait will go up. Yeah, I see the picture now, thanks Obama. Thanks for making the picture clearer for me Larry.

  37. Thanks Accurate. I'd not be opposed to a network of taxpayer-funded clinics that offered alternative non-ER care to those who do not have insurance.

    The folks would still end up in hospitals with the cost-shifting going on.

    You think ObamaCare will INCREASE costs.

    If I believed that I'd be opposed to it.

    In the absence of any other credible data other than CBO data – I do not believe the right wing misinformation on this.

    I'm not going to be surprised if costs exceed original projections but I'm also not going to be surprised at some point that costs of ER care and cost-shifting start leveling off.

    I'd also not support Obama_Care if it did not require everyone to pay into it just like they do with SS and Medicare right now.

    and I'd just point out to you once again – any/all alternatives to Obama_Care could have been done in the 16 years prior and nothing was done – and no intention to do anything.

    I do not recall a single Republican initiative much less one along the Indigent Clinic idea you favor.

    Where were you folks ?

    why did you not doing anything until ObamaCare happened?

    My view is that you would not do anything as long as you had your own and that is true of most Republicans.

    They simply do not see this as a program that the govt should deal with.

    continued….

  38. continue….

    You seem to think that clinic "just happened" and that it gets funding from "somewhere".

    if that idea actually "worked", why don't we have a nationwide network of such clinics so Obama_Care would never had seen the light of day?

    I don't think you can have it both ways.

    I don't think you can ignore the program and make small talk about "some re-work" needed, not take action or even attempt to take action and then cry that something you don't like happened.

    lead, follow or get out of the way.

    "REPEAL" might happen, we'll see but what a lot of people are going to be looking for is what the Republicans – are going to support for Replace.

    sorry about the loss of your parents, mine are gone also but my wife's father still is doing well.

    He's a retired Chemical company executive that has amassed a substantial sum for his retirement – and he deserves it.

    But the man takes Medicare!

    Yes.. he takes that nasty old govt health care that limits who he can see..what kinds of treatments he can get and all those death panels that decide what they won't pay for.

    I know others – even Tea Party folks – who take Medicare – and won't pay extra for more/better treatment – even as they complain about it.

    I take Medicare.. because my insurance forced me to make it primary when I retired.

    This is pro-forma by the way.

    I also kept my other insurance – because the govt forces them to continue to carry me – at the same rate that they charge to others.

    so I actually pay MORE now for health insurance than I used to and my private insurance picks up the costs of what Medicare does not cover – which is more than you'd think.

    Medicare by the way costs money and is voluntary.

    You are not forced to take it.

    You have to apply for it.

    You can go to any doctor you want and NOT give them your Medicare Card and if you make the required arrangements to pay – it' purely between you and the doctor/hospital and you are free to not have anyone else decide for you what level of treatment you will receive or not other than yourself.

    If we did health care like the Republicans want – you'd not get tax-free employer-provided care Accurate.

    You'd get the $$$ …taxable …instead…

    and you'd go out onto the open market and find the best deal for you and your family.

    the reason you have employer-provided health care is because the government has make it a tax-free compensation that thet the companies can still write off.

    in other words, it receives special government treatment that other forms of compensation do not receive.

    How about we go to a system where there is no more employer-provided, govt-incentivized health care – you get the money instead and you go out into the open market and make your own arrangements?

    That would a TRUE non-govt approach to health care.

    and everyone would be on an equal footing.

    each person become responsible for themselves and their family.

  39. Andrea Epps Avatar
    Andrea Epps

    I couldn't resist the temptation to inject a thought or two into this discussion.
    I haven't had insurance since I was laid off. I started a company to, among other things transfer and lease development rights because this is something I believe will be better managed by the private sector in cooperation with local government. Although I'll admit I can't launch the program until it's funded,but I have spent two years putting every aspect of it together.
    Now, it doesn't change the fact that my kids and I aren't insured (I'm not one to ask for government aid for these things)but I'm hoping to launch the programs soon, and thus be able to obtain the insurance my ex is required to provide but doesn't.
    Accurate, (in several attempts)tries to show a much larger, at least equally important issue. Personally, I ABSOLUTELY believe it should be the RIGHT of every American citizen to have adequate food, water and shelter.This point has not received the attention it deserves…here or on any governmental level.

  40. Thanks for sharing Andrea.

    I note that Accurate said he was "ok" with EMTALA – i.e. people without insurance getting treated in ERs.

    Folks ought to read up on this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

    It's very definitely NOT ok.

    " EMTALA was passed to combat the practice of "patient dumping","

    ask yourself what would happen if EMTALA went away. We'd be back to patient dumping.

    but what is going on right now is even worse…..

    " According to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, 55% of U.S. emergency care now goes uncompensated.[11] When medical bills go unpaid, health care providers must either shift the costs onto those who can pay or go uncompensated. In the first decade of EMTALA, such cost-shifting amounted to a hidden tax levied by providers.[12] For example, it has been estimated that this cost shifting amounted to $455 per individual or $1,186 per family in California each year.[12]"

    In other words each INSURED Family was paying over a thousand dollars in additional premiums for indigents.

    " Financial pressures on hospitals in the 20 years since EMTALA's passage have caused them to consolidate and close facilities, contributing to emergency room overcrowding. According to the Institute of Medicine, between 1993 and 2003, emergency room visits in the U.S. grew by 26 percent, while in the same period, the number of emergency departments declined by 425.[7] Ambulances are frequently diverted from overcrowded emergency departments to other hospitals that may be farther away. In 2003, ambulances were diverted over a half a million times.[7]"

    In other words – if you are an INSURED person – in an ambulance on it's way to the ER – you may be DIVERTED or have to wait for treatment.

    Inevitably – the higher costs o ER care.. and the delays in treatment lead to higher costs for everyone – and worse outcomes.

    The state back this up. We ALL pay twice as much for health care as other industrialized countries and we die at higher rates than all of them … in fact.. we rank next to Cuba.

    Finally – those who oppose Obama-Care basically have this argument.

    That we can't have socialized medical care – like Europe and Japan.

    Apparently even in their minds there is not other way for us to improve our system other than convert it to "socialized medical care".

    That must be way the folks who don't like ObamaCare never attempted to do anything else prior to Obama_care, eh?

    I still say that if the Obama_Care Exchanges are allowed to stay – that they will be a boon to small businesses who will gladly let their employees get their insurance from these exchanges and free them up to compete on even footing with other businesses and it will tremendously empower folks like Andrea to follow her dreams and innovate and have success.

  41. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Andrea said, "I ABSOLUTELY believe it should be the RIGHT of every American citizen to have adequate food, water and shelter."

    I'm just curious. How do you define "adequate"? What standard of living do people have a right to?

    And do you believe that people have any responsibility to contribute to their own support? Or are they entitled no matter how slack their attitude?

    By the way, good luck with your business. It sounds like a great idea.

  42. Hey Jim Bacon..

    do you think EMTALA defines what is "adequate" for Health Care?

    How about Medicare, Tricare, SCHIPS, Medicaid and the VA hospitals?

    Do they "define" what is "adequate"?

    and just FYI – we do "define"
    standards for food and water and housing.

    We do this with defined poverty standards which, in turn, entitle people to "entitlements".

    How many kids in America are determined to not have adequate food – and their families given food stamps and the kids get reduced/free meals at lunch – and breakfast at schools?

    I'm not advocating these.

    I'm pointing out that we have defacto standards for "adequate".

    You may not agree.

    For that matter, I may not agree.

    EMTALA is a disaster.

    EMTALA is a major driver that is undermining health care in this country in my view.

    It defines double dumb.

    2-4 times a much for health care as it should cost.

    people dying from lack of care or care delivered too late – which puts us on part with Cuba on Life Expectancy.

  43. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Sorry, I must have missed something in this thread. What is EMTALA?

  44. Lord. Lordy. Jim Bacon. EMTALA Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act is the GRAND DADDY of entitlement programs ( and I thought you were an informed Conservative).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

    signed into law by your Patron Saint – Mr. Reagan in 1986.

    I do not understand how any principled conservative who opposes Obama_Care – is unaware of EMTALA and it's implication in US health care.

  45. Andrea Epps Avatar
    Andrea Epps

    Well Hi Jim 🙂
    1. Life, 2. Liberty and the
    3. Pursuit of happiness. (I'm going to make a very elementary attempt to break this down, backwards)
    3. As Americans, we have the right to follow our dreams, start a business, jump out of a perfectly good airplane, etc.
    2. Our liberty is expressed by our responsibility to vote.
    1. Life. We can't live without food,water and some form of shelter.
    Now, I am not even going to attempt to define "adequate" in Virginia. I have my own opinion of what I consider adequate, like food and water that doesn't make you sick.
    But to answer your question: Yes, I think we have a responsibility to support ourselves.I can not stand the thought of people who abuse the welfare system, and I also think welfare reform should be at the forefront of a national discussion, now.
    However, when someone has worked and contributed all of their life, I believe we have a responsibility to that person if he/she falls on hard times.I know that is the intent of the current system, but in many ways it doesn't encourage people to help themselves and it lacks creativity, hence why I support reform.
    I think as a society we can do so much better but that's just my humble opinion.

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