Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Xmas Present for Metro

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

by Bill Tracy

Season greetings to Bacon’s Rebellion readers, and the Happiest of Holidays to the D.C. Metro system.

In a major coup for Virginia and its Metro partners, Senator Mark Warner and friends have secured $830 million for Metro in the to-be-approved-someday COVID stimulus package, thus avoiding the Doomsday scenario of severe schedule cutbacks, reports WJLA.

Was the Doomsday scenario announced as a scare tactic to get the funding package? Food for thought.

Whatever the case, Warner told ABC7 Tuesday afternoon that approximately $830 million in the COVID bill will go to help Washington-area transit systems, adding that not all but the vast majority of that will go to Metro. “I think it’s an early Christmas present for Metro and its riders,” said Metro Board of Directors member Matt Letourneau of Loudoun County.

Meanwhile, the long-term implication is that the federal government could be the new long-term funding partner for Metro, which makes some sense given the the federal jobs it supports. What about the nation’s other struggling mass transit systems? What about our formerly beautiful and growing car pool HOV3 “slugging” system in NoVA?

Only time will tell.

Bill Tracy, a retired engineer, lives in Northern Virginia.

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91 responses to “Xmas Present for Metro”

  1. CrazyJD Avatar
    CrazyJD

    Awful lot of speculation, false premises, and argument by assertion in your post, Larry. Maybe you should take the Holidays off and regroup.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Sorry Crazy. It’s abundantly clear that Consevatives and the GOP totally hate METRO and transit in general but they lack the backbone to say so when running for office especially in places where there is transit and Metro.

      It’s one of those problems that Conservatives have between what theybelieve and what they’re actually willing ot say when looking for votes.

      Let’s also say that in every major city in the world , subway and transit is vitally important and provided as a necessary service – normal “governance”. Only in the US , do Conservatives argue against rail and transit.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Only in the US , do Conservatives argue against rail and transit.”

        That is false and you don’t know the first thing about transit or railroads.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    You know……… the thing with METRO is that Conservatives SAY it is a failure and not worth the money – and they play this game of refusing to “bail it out”.

    But if they were in charge, would they really shut it down?

    The worst of all worlds is to keep it running but not fund it adquately.

    In other words, just lets it twist in the wind and if it fails so be it.

    That’s not really “governance” per se.

    And if Kirk Cox showed up in NoVa and promised to shut down METRO because it was a massive fiscal failure – what would happen? So he would not do that and if asked by the media if he would do that, no doubt, he’d tap dance.

    So the GOP has to posture for it’s base (some call that virtue signaling) but when push comes to shove, they’ll agree to fund METRO but prefer it to not be on the front page.

    This is why the GOP cannot win election in urban areas.

  3. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    You know……… the thing with METRO is that Conservatives SAY it is a failure and not worth the money – and they play this game of refusing to “bail it out”.

    But if they were in charge, would they really shut it down?

    The worst of all worlds is to keep it running but not fund it adquately.

    In other words, just lets it twist in the wind and if it fails so be it.

    That’s not really “governance” per se.

    And if Kirk Cox showed up in NoVa and promised to shut down METRO because it was a massive fiscal failure – what would happen? So he would not do that and if asked by the media if he would do that, no doubt, he’d tap dance.

    So the GOP has to posture for it’s base (some call that virtue signaling) but when push comes to shove, they’ll agree to fund METRO but prefer it to not be on the front page.

    This is why the GOP cannot win election in urban areas.

  4. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    It ain’t signed yet. Warner’s victory dance might prove premature.

  5. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    It ain’t signed yet. Warner’s victory dance might prove premature.

  6. CrazyJD Avatar
    CrazyJD

    Awful lot of speculation, false premises, and argument by assertion in your post, Larry. Maybe you should take the Holidays off and regroup.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Sorry Crazy. It’s abundantly clear that Consevatives and the GOP totally hate METRO and transit in general but they lack the backbone to say so when running for office especially in places where there is transit and Metro.

      It’s one of those problems that Conservatives have between what theybelieve and what they’re actually willing ot say when looking for votes.

      Let’s also say that in every major city in the world , subway and transit is vitally important and provided as a necessary service – normal “governance”. Only in the US , do Conservatives argue against rail and transit.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Only in the US , do Conservatives argue against rail and transit.”

        That is false and you don’t know the first thing about transit or railroads.

      2. sherlockj Avatar
        sherlockj

        You live in your own world, Larry.

        Conservatives just want mass transit well run and driven by market-based decisions. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so.

        The Metro Board is a classic example of a horribly run bureaucracy too big to fail. The decade-long billion dollar argument with the Washington Airport Authority, another preposterously inefficient bureaucracy, over an above ground vs. below ground Metro terminal at Dulles is but one example.

        If the job is to move people from A to B, do that as efficiently as possible. Just make sure that there are enough people at A that want to go to B.

        The business case never, ever seems to be the driving philosophy with Metro or indeed most mass transit decisions.

        To that conservatives object. The rest is your own fantasy world.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Can you name the top 3 systems in the US and world that you think ARE well run, financially solven from farebox alone and a model for Metro?

          When Conservatives argue against transit and rail – and they do all the time, do we ever hear them talk about the systems they do admire in the US and/or World?

          Nope. Best run in the US? crickets. Best run in the world : crickets!

          right? now THAT’s what I call “living in one’s all world”!

  7. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Metro will endure. Forever propped up.

  8. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Metro will endure. Forever propped up.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    So , the question not answered is are all operations like METRO in the US and other countries – “forever propped up”?

    Conservatives in BR pretty much hate not only METRO but passenger rail and tansit. All they do is talk about how they “fail” – operationally and fiscally.

    But if you ask them to name examples of rail and transit that do not “fail” – work well operationally AND financially, what do they say?

    If METRO is bad – tell me which ones are good or at least better than METRO AND confirm that as a Conservative you DO believe in and support rail and transit as a concept but just want it done “right” operationally and fiscally.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Here’s one they like…
      https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ylarkVSK06W-BVgivQh1EBoruwg=/0x0:720×453/1520×0/filters:focal(0x0:720×453):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9195959/PE_graveyard.jpg

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “We just want them to function more efficiently and at less expense to taxpayers.”

        QED. Can’t get more efficient than pictured.

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      “Conservatives in BR pretty much hate not only METRO but passenger rail and transit.”

      Totally wrong again, Larry. We don’t hate Metro and transit. We just want them to function more efficiently and at less expense to taxpayers.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Can you give examples of ones that do that you like?

  10. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    WMATA has an unsustainable cost structure. Proof – Fairfax County, with a 9-1 Democratic majority among our supervisors, is proposing to replace two Metro Bus routes with County-run Fairfax Connector bus lines. The unstated reason: It’s much cheaper to operate bus routes locally than fund them through WMATA.

    Do we need Metrorail? Of course. But it’s ridership is so low (much less than Metro Bus) that it must retrench its operations. Why is it that progressives want to ignore economics?

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      I wonder if there should be some move towards entities using Metro (US Gov, private cos.. etc) helping more with the funding.

      In the past our society policy was, since we have high Fed taxes on business, then the public tax payers would take the burden of paying for mass transit, and also business/gov gets enormous discounts on electricity, with residents paying lion’s share of those costs too.

      Now many big US businesses (Apple/Amazon etc) are paying no Fed tax at all, and Trump reduced business taxes on the rest. Meanwhile they still get mass transit paid for by others, and big electricity discounts.

      This new scenario suggests to me a new strategy should be trying make users of the Metro and electrical power pay more of that burden. Should not be a “free ride” to run Amazon, for example.

      Then business says we demand renewables (and we do not pay for that higher cost either).

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      What do Conservatives want ? Seriously. Do you think that METRO should pay for itself? Is that your goal?

  11. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    So , the question not answered is are all operations like METRO in the US and other countries – “forever propped up”?

    Conservatives in BR pretty much hate not only METRO but passenger rail and tansit. All they do is talk about how they “fail” – operationally and fiscally.

    But if you ask them to name examples of rail and transit that do not “fail” – work well operationally AND financially, what do they say?

    If METRO is bad – tell me which ones are good or at least better than METRO AND confirm that as a Conservative you DO believe in and support rail and transit as a concept but just want it done “right” operationally and fiscally.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Here’s one they like…
      https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ylarkVSK06W-BVgivQh1EBoruwg=/0x0:720×453/1520×0/filters:focal(0x0:720×453):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9195959/PE_graveyard.jpg

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “We just want them to function more efficiently and at less expense to taxpayers.”

        QED. Can’t get more efficient than pictured.

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      “Conservatives in BR pretty much hate not only METRO but passenger rail and transit.”

      Totally wrong again, Larry. We don’t hate Metro and transit. We just want them to function more efficiently and at less expense to taxpayers.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Can you give examples of ones that do that you like?

  12. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    How about building owners/business tenants in the immediate area surrounding a Metrorail station signing contracts to guarantee a minimum number of riders or trips (using some form of specialized fare cards) per annum or, failing that, paying the cash equivalent? Clearly, commercial property owners surrounding rail stations get higher density and higher rents for their location. And tenants get an attractive “perk” for employees and access to more customers. Why not pay something for it?

    Clearly, this cannot be the only source of revenue beyond fares. But how does taxing competitors not located near rail stations and not receiving the economic benefits of such location seem fair?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Can you cite other METRO systems in other states/cities or countries that do it “right” and that’s the model you want METRO to follow?

  13. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    WMATA has an unsustainable cost structure. Proof – Fairfax County, with a 9-1 Democratic majority among our supervisors, is proposing to replace two Metro Bus routes with County-run Fairfax Connector bus lines. The unstated reason: It’s much cheaper to operate bus routes locally than fund them through WMATA.

    Do we need Metrorail? Of course. But it’s ridership is so low (much less than Metro Bus) that it must retrench its operations. Why is it that progressives want to ignore economics?

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      I wonder if there should be some move towards entities using Metro (US Gov, private cos.. etc) helping more with the funding.

      In the past our society policy was, since we have high Fed taxes on business, then the public tax payers would take the burden of paying for mass transit, and also business/gov gets enormous discounts on electricity, with residents paying lion’s share of those costs too.

      Now many big US businesses (Apple/Amazon etc) are paying no Fed tax at all, and Trump reduced business taxes on the rest. Meanwhile they still get mass transit paid for by others, and big electricity discounts.

      This new scenario suggests to me a new strategy should be trying make users of the Metro and electrical power pay more of that burden. Should not be a “free ride” to run Amazon, for example.

      Then business says we demand renewables (and we do not pay for that higher cost either).

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      What do Conservatives want ? Seriously. Do you think that METRO should pay for itself? Is that your goal?

  14. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    How about building owners/business tenants in the immediate area surrounding a Metrorail station signing contracts to guarantee a minimum number of riders or trips (using some form of specialized fare cards) per annum or, failing that, paying the cash equivalent? Clearly, commercial property owners surrounding rail stations get higher density and higher rents for their location. And tenants get an attractive “perk” for employees and access to more customers. Why not pay something for it?

    Clearly, this cannot be the only source of revenue beyond fares. But how does taxing competitors not located near rail stations and not receiving the economic benefits of such location seem fair?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Can you cite other METRO systems in other states/cities or countries that do it “right” and that’s the model you want METRO to follow?

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        Public transit in the United States doesn’t do it right -PERIOD No one expects transit to post large profits. But let’s keep in mind that most large public transit systems in the United States were converted from regulated carriers that did operate in a reasonably cost-controlled basis, as they often made profits.

        Management needs to bargain hard with unions, just like unions bargain hard with management. The pension plans need to be converted to a combination defined benefit/defined contribution plan. WMATA’s pension plan that includes overtime needs to be changed. A much harder line needs to be taken against “bus accident” claims. Incentives should be given to all employees when the system hits cost control-service-safety targets.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          So… US rail/transit should look and operate more like European/Asian rail/transit or what?

          Do we have a “model” that does exist that we are comparing to or or we just demanding a design and operation that does not exist anywhere on earth?

          That’s one of the problems with the critics – they keep demanding something that is theoretical and does not exist while Europe and Asia have developed extensive networks that actually do operate right now – but would they meet the expectations of the critics of rail/transit in the US?

          Or even if you told me what you thought the financial metrics SHOULD BE – based on some logical rationale other than arbitrary – that, again, no existing operation does.

          Finally, can you tell me of all the existing operations in the US/Europe/Asia , the ones that come closest to what you think should be?

          All we get in BR is pretty much strident criticism , every metric cited is “terrible” but we never say what it SHOULD BE except silly stuff like “pay for itself”.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Perhaps Washington Metro should emulate Moscow Metro. They are highly regarded.

            There are plenty of transits that pay for themselves. HandiRide. They don’t get taxpayer money. They just put in claims against Medicare and Medicaid like other “free capitalist” service providers.

  15. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    Metro is essentially the last hope for the DC area. Just like mass transit has been the last hope for all successful cities that have grown in population. See what happens when the subway shuts down in NYC for example. Or the El / trains in Chicago. If you want density you need mass transit.

    I’ve ridden on mass transit from Tokyo to London to Paris. What alternative do you anti-Metro people suggest? Hovercraft? Submarines?

    DC’s Metro isn’t exactly unique.

    1. Nathan Avatar
      Nathan

      “What alternative do you anti-Metro people suggest? Hovercraft? Submarines?”

      How about jetpacks? I wonder if this guy was wearing a mask.

      “Los Angeles pilot finally captures elusive ‘jetpack man’ on video”

      https://www.foxnews.com/us/los-angeles-pilot-finally-captures-elusive-jetpack-man-on-video

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Not only transit but passenger rail.

      How does Europe/Asia manage to do transit AND passenger rail , country-wide and we say it’s too costly and not feasible?

      If we knew the cost of European and Asian transit and rail – and it was similar to METRO what would we say?

      Conservatives , as opposed to those snowflake liberals would STILL argue against it , right?

      But even in the US, which systems would Conservatives point out as “good” and want METRO to be like?

      I don’t think Conservatives do that myself. They’re fine with talking about how bad METRO is but they really don’t have a system they like anyhow because they consider all variants to be losing propositions, but even then they won’t pick the least-bad as ones METRO should emulate.

      Wrong?

      And to DJ’s point. If most METRO cities have some form of transit and Conservatives think it is a loser, does that explain why most METRO areas do not have Conservatives in charge? Are Conservatives “fit” to govern cities if they refuse to acknowledge the need for transit that does not pay for itself?

      🙂 😉

      1. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        “Are Conservatives ‘fit’ to govern cities if they refuse to acknowledge the need for transit that does not pay for itself?”

        New York City as definitely better off with Giuliani.

        I think conservatives would do well to appreciate the need for mass transit in urban areas, but voters in major cities also need to consider conservatives, or they will continue to have an exodus of citizens.

        “Violent crime in cities present new-year challenge for Democratic mayors”

        “Across virtually every large urban area, a wave of violent crime has plagued residents as they struggle to adjust to new pandemic-related restrictions and a general decline in their quality of life. From bustling metropolises such as New York to sleepier cities like Salt Lake, violent crime has reached levels not seen for years or, in some cases, decades.”

        https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/crime-rising-democratic-cities

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          transit and crime.

          Violent crime has trended down , no?

          https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/atdKoerth.CRIME-PERCEPTIONS.0804.png

          but we’re changing the subject.

          The question is can traditional American style Conservatives govern citiies effectively?

          1. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            Crime was trending down. You need more updated information, and it should be focused on cities, not the entire country.

            Also, it’s not changing the subject to make the point that violent crime must also be considered. If the people with means leave a city, who will pay for mass transit projects?

            If a city is crime ridden, people don’t even want to visit.

            So answer my question. Was Mayor Giuliani a good mayor for NYC or not?

          2. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            The murder rate increased sharply this year, especially in major cities.

      2. James A. Bacon Avatar
        James A. Bacon

        Conservatives love the Hong Kong metro system. Back in 2015, CNN reported that the HK metro made $2 billion a year profit. https://money.cnn.com/2015/03/30/news/hong-kong-mtr-subway-property/index.html#:~:text=The%20city%27s%20subway%20is%20the%20face%20of%20the,subway%20is%20an%20anomaly%20among%20major%20rail%20networks.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yup – but here’s the part Jim does not talk about:

          ” But the company’s real profits are derived from a lesser-known side of the business: property development. Some 50 major properties across Hong Kong are owned, developed or managed by MTR, including two of the city’s tallest skyscrapers.

          “Sometimes critics say it’s a property development firm doing a side business of rail,” said Tim Hau, a professor at University of Hong Kong’s School of Economics and Finance.

          Here’s how it works: MTR enjoys a special relationship with the Hong Kong government, which is also its majority shareholder. The government provides land — at no cost — for use by the train operator, and MTR is then allowed to develop the areas above and around its stations.”

          Are you advocating this for METRO?

    3. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Metro is indispensable to the Washington metro. The regional economy cannot function without it. It cannot be allowed to fail. But that’s no excuse for continually bailing out a dysfunctional organization. Metro’s constituencies cannot be allowed to hold up the taxpayer for ransom. There are no simply answers. But someone needs to represent the taxpayers, and they need to push back and demand more accountability.

  16. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    Metro is essentially the last hope for the DC area. Just like mass transit has been the last hope for all successful cities that have grown in population. See what happens when the subway shuts down in NYC for example. Or the El / trains in Chicago. If you want density you need mass transit.

    I’ve ridden on mass transit from Tokyo to London to Paris. What alternative do you anti-Metro people suggest? Hovercraft? Submarines?

    DC’s Metro isn’t exactly unique.

    1. Nathan Avatar
      Nathan

      “What alternative do you anti-Metro people suggest? Hovercraft? Submarines?”

      How about jetpacks? I wonder if this guy was wearing a mask.

      “Los Angeles pilot finally captures elusive ‘jetpack man’ on video”

      https://www.foxnews.com/us/los-angeles-pilot-finally-captures-elusive-jetpack-man-on-video

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Not only transit but passenger rail.

      How does Europe/Asia manage to do transit AND passenger rail , country-wide and we say it’s too costly and not feasible?

      If we knew the cost of European and Asian transit and rail – and it was similar to METRO what would we say?

      Conservatives , as opposed to those snowflake liberals would STILL argue against it , right?

      But even in the US, which systems would Conservatives point out as “good” and want METRO to be like?

      I don’t think Conservatives do that myself. They’re fine with talking about how bad METRO is but they really don’t have a system they like anyhow because they consider all variants to be losing propositions, but even then they won’t pick the least-bad as ones METRO should emulate.

      Wrong?

      And to DJ’s point. If most METRO cities have some form of transit and Conservatives think it is a loser, does that explain why most METRO areas do not have Conservatives in charge? Are Conservatives “fit” to govern cities if they refuse to acknowledge the need for transit that does not pay for itself?

      🙂 😉

      1. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        “Are Conservatives ‘fit’ to govern cities if they refuse to acknowledge the need for transit that does not pay for itself?”

        New York City as definitely better off with Giuliani.

        I think conservatives would do well to appreciate the need for mass transit in urban areas, but voters in major cities also need to consider conservatives, or they will continue to have an exodus of citizens.

        “Violent crime in cities present new-year challenge for Democratic mayors”

        “Across virtually every large urban area, a wave of violent crime has plagued residents as they struggle to adjust to new pandemic-related restrictions and a general decline in their quality of life. From bustling metropolises such as New York to sleepier cities like Salt Lake, violent crime has reached levels not seen for years or, in some cases, decades.”

        https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/crime-rising-democratic-cities

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          transit and crime.

          Violent crime has trended down , no?

          https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/atdKoerth.CRIME-PERCEPTIONS.0804.png

          but we’re changing the subject.

          The question is can traditional American style Conservatives govern citiies effectively?

          1. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            Crime was trending down. You need more updated information, and it should be focused on cities, not the entire country.

            Also, it’s not changing the subject to make the point that violent crime must also be considered. If the people with means leave a city, who will pay for mass transit projects?

            If a city is crime ridden, people don’t even want to visit.

            So answer my question. Was Mayor Giuliani a good mayor for NYC or not?

          2. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            The murder rate increased sharply this year, especially in major cities.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            How about a cite?

      2. James A. Bacon Avatar
        James A. Bacon

        Conservatives love the Hong Kong metro system. Back in 2015, CNN reported that the HK metro made $2 billion a year profit. https://money.cnn.com/2015/03/30/news/hong-kong-mtr-subway-property/index.html#:~:text=The%20city%27s%20subway%20is%20the%20face%20of%20the,subway%20is%20an%20anomaly%20among%20major%20rail%20networks.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yup – but here’s the part Jim does not talk about:

          ” But the company’s real profits are derived from a lesser-known side of the business: property development. Some 50 major properties across Hong Kong are owned, developed or managed by MTR, including two of the city’s tallest skyscrapers.

          “Sometimes critics say it’s a property development firm doing a side business of rail,” said Tim Hau, a professor at University of Hong Kong’s School of Economics and Finance.

          Here’s how it works: MTR enjoys a special relationship with the Hong Kong government, which is also its majority shareholder. The government provides land — at no cost — for use by the train operator, and MTR is then allowed to develop the areas above and around its stations.”

          Are you advocating this for METRO?

    3. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Metro is indispensable to the Washington metro. The regional economy cannot function without it. It cannot be allowed to fail. But that’s no excuse for continually bailing out a dysfunctional organization. Metro’s constituencies cannot be allowed to hold up the taxpayer for ransom. There are no simply answers. But someone needs to represent the taxpayers, and they need to push back and demand more accountability.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Like I said. Point me to a METRO system you like and operates financially the way you think it should.

        Just criticizing METRO is isolation without compare and constrasting is just more Conservative critcism of things they do not support in concept to start with.

        If METRO is horrible – show me one that you like that is not.

        1. James A. Bacon Avatar
          James A. Bacon

          As a matter of fact, Larry, I have written about the Hong Kong metro system and how it uses real estate development around its stations as a profit maker. In the U.S., by contrast, mass transit systems create enormous economic value — which is captured primarily by real estate developers and secondarily by transit unions. The Silver Line is a case in point. Landowners near Metro stations are paying a fraction of the cost of building the rail line but are reaping most of the benefits, while taxpayers and Dulles Toll Road users are getting hosed. Mass transit as financed in America is a wealth-transfer mechanism from taxpayers to real estate developers and transit unions. No laws were broken, but the system is corrupt nonetheless.

          1. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            Powerful politicians also profit mightily.

            “The top Democrat in the House of Representatives steered more than a billion dollars in subsidies to a light rail project that benefitted a company run by a high-dollar Democratic donor and in which her husband is a major investor.”

            https://freebeacon.com/politics/pelosi-subsidies-benefit-husbands-investment-in-dem-mega-donors-company/

          2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            “In the U.S., by contrast, mass transit systems create enormous economic value — which is captured primarily by real estate developers and secondarily by transit unions.”

            That is all true in many cases, including likely the Silver Line but it is equally true in many places that the Metro undergrounds and above ground rails fail for a reverse problem, under building around Metro stops because of the Not In My Backyard culture in America. This has been a major cause of income shortfalls afflicting the DC region Metro. The Ballston Rosslyn Corridor was a great exception to the under building rule too often found elsewhere.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Not sure I’ve heard you ADVOCATE that way for METRO to fund itself. You support that?

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Your main roll here is to blather on continually devoid of fact, intelligence or reason. You will argue with people till your blue in the face how they are wrong, when they are the SME’s and you’re just a pensioner with too much time on your hands.”

            “roll” geeze guy

            Name 3 systems better than METRO and why –

            time on my hands as retired and you are gainfully employed and commenting on a regular basis and throwing in personal attacks to boot?

            Maybe you need more “work” ? Oh no.. you’re a EE … so you can work, blog, and do personal attacks – all at the same time.

            Versatile fellow you are!

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “LarrytheG | December 28, 2020 at 12:21 pm |
            re: ” Your main roll here is to blather on continually devoid of fact, intelligence or reason. You will argue with people till your blue in the face how they are wrong, when they are the SME’s and you’re just a pensioner with too much time on your hands.”

            “roll” geeze guy

            Name 3 systems better than METRO and why –

            time on my hands as retired and you are gainfully employed and commenting on a regular basis and throwing in personal attacks to boot?

            Maybe you need more “work” ? Oh no.. you’re a EE … so you can work, blog, and do personal attacks – all at the same time.

            Versatile fellow you are!”

            Larry you posted this in the wrong location. Oh don’t even get me started on your typos, we’d be here all day.

            I gave you a link, it has pictures. I figured that’d suffice for you.

            Says the guy who just personally attacked someone, Holy f”n Crap dude. Learn what a personal attack is then comment.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Matt.. Mr. EE – what can I say guy… you suck at this.

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “LarrytheG | December 28, 2020 at 12:43 pm |
            Matt.. Mr. EE – what can I say guy… you suck at this.”

            Larry,

            Again, you didn’t use the proper reply. Also, another “ad hom” attack.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            since you ARE so versatile and “productive” AND careful and prccise – you should check with Jim about becoming a BR moderator or some such! Gawd Forbid!

        2. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          The real question is for you to name another system outside of WMATA. If you can manage to do that I’ll indulge you and why you’re wrong and provide you with explicit details regarding it.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh I think there ARE systems around the US and the Word and am asking which ones Conservatives LIKE and think METRO should model itself after – as opposed to finding 50 things wrong with METRO and reason to call it a failure and presumably shut it down.

            I just don’t hear Conservatives advocating FOR transit and rail near as much as I hear them saying they are failed and deserve to be closed.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Larry,

            So as I predicted you don’t know any other system outside of WMATA and aren’t in fact interested in where the issues are. You’d rather just make BS blanket statements derived from your uneducated opinion on the matter.

            “I just don’t hear Conservatives advocating FOR transit and rail near as much as I hear them saying they are failed and deserve to be closed.”

            You don’t know the first thing about rail and I can prove that in a single question outside of the previous one just didn’t answer.

            Is Washington Metro Area Transit Authority a light or heavy rail system.

            Until you are bothered to answer what I asked, I find no need to address the utter bullshit you’re peddling.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Matt – do you know anything?

            What makes you the arbiter of what is true or fact or not?

            I’m not asserting ANYTHING here about Washington Metro Area Transit Authority, I’m asking how one should judge it compared to other systems that exist.

            Conservatives make their case against it by citing it’s problems but all such systems have problems. What makes this one worse or the worst and if so, what are the better ones?

            My suspects is that many Conservatives are fundamentally opposed to the CONCEPT of government-supported/subisized transit and rail from the get go.

            But most major cities and countries in the world have some version of transit and rail – heavy or light or hybrid.

            Most major cities in the US and the world consider transit/rail an ESSENTIAL service like other government-provided services – rather than a service that must “pay for itself”.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Larry,

            You owe everyone on this blog lots of things to include answers to question that you just obfuscate when you ramble on without thought, intelligence or end.

            I worked for the railroad and am currently employed as an engineering consultant in that same field your trying to sound educated on (news flash, you’re not).

            I asked you the name another system that would be similar to WMATA, you didn’t. You obfuscated in your normal fashion and continued your broad brush generalization because you’re in a word, clueless.

            “But most major cities and countries in the world have some version of transit and rail – heavy or light or hybrid.

            Most major cities in the US and the world consider transit/rail an ESSENTIAL service like other government-provided services – rather than a service that must “pay for itself”.”

            No, no they don’t again further proving you can’t even employ Google to not sound like a fool. Seeing as you don’t know what “light and or heavy rail” is you need to learn to render yourself not a fool and shut up.

            WMATA is subsidized by 3 different localities, DC, Maryland and Virginia. It’s also subsided by the FTA to the tune of several millions of dollars on wasted projects and pipe dreams.

            Do you know what WMATA employee’s say that stands for? “We meet and talk a lot”, are you also aware that those very employees won’t ride the METRO even though it’s free.

            You have zero understanding, knowledge or concept of rail, light heavy or in between.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Matt go sit down and shut up fool.

            Who put you in charge of anything including this blog?

            Who made you the arbiter of facts?

            Good Lord guy… I bet you’re a real pill at work!

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “LarrytheG | December 27, 2020 at 5:36 pm |
            Matt go sit down and shut up fool.

            Who put you in charge of anything including this blog?

            Who made you the arbiter of facts?

            Good Lord guy… I bet you’re a real pill at work!”

            So instead of addressing anything I stated or even attempting to refute it you personally attack me.

            That alone tells me that you again have no idea what you’re talking about (shocked faced).

            Here’s some handy information for you:

            1) Light Rail is tram based systems (street running)
            2) Heavy Rail is WMATA style (third rail or overhead)
            3) There is no hybrid of the two, they are two separate systems while an authority may operate both they are not the same.
            4) The Unions that Govern Rail vs Transit are different, transit is an off shoot of the AFL-CIO. As such they aren’t vested in the RRR (VRE, AMTRAK and Class I’s are)
            5) WMATA Employee’s do not work under HOS
            6) GCRTA, CTA, SANDAG, PAAC, METTRO North are all other examples of similar style systems. They are not now nor have they ever been operated like rail (VRE or AMTRAK).

            So if you have anything else to add on the subject matter that I make a living doing, you should perhaps do it in the mirror less you want to be embarrassed, again.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Matt – where did you get his information from?

            Are you an expert in this field and this is your DIRECT profession?

            Can you provide cites from these statements so I know it to be true and not just some BS from you?

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “LarrytheG | December 28, 2020 at 8:27 am |
            Matt – where did you get his information from?

            Are you an expert in this field and this is your DIRECT profession?

            Can you provide cites from these statements so I know it to be true and not just some BS from you?:”

            I’ve already identified myself as a degreed EE who works in rail transportation, currently as an Engineering Consultant.

            So further proving that you have zero understanding of rail and couldn’t name a single other authority. I’ll indulge your lack of knowledge yet again.

            GCRTA = Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority
            CTA = Chicago Transit Authority
            SANDAG = San Diego Association of Governments
            PAAC = Port Authority of Alleghany County
            METTRO North = MTA New York

            I could provide you with my title and the Company I work for and you’d still refute my statements, you’re just a prime example of Dunning Kruger.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Matt – a degree in any field does NOT make you an expert in any field you claim guy.

            Unless you are a REAL professional who actually has a background and experience in urban rail and transit – you’re just spouting BS.

            CITE your claims guy. If they are true then there is information that should be available.

            And to remind you, I never claimed any particular expertise in METRO at all – what I did was basically ask how does anyone, and especially critics, know how good or bad METRO really is – COMPARED to other similar systems?

            The conservaitive critics almost never make the critcism and then follow it by saving what systems do better and those would be models for METRO.

            And I suspect most Conservatives are fundamentally opposed to transit and rail that don’t “pay for themselves” and are essentially a govt-subsidized service – just about everywhere.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Larry,

            Again, I hold a EE. I worked for the rail road and currently make a living as a train control Engineering Consultant. I’m rather certain that makes me knowledgeable in the field that I earn a paycheck in.

            My title at work is Engineer Rail Systems, pretty sure that makes me a professional in the field.

            What claims am I to “cite”? That light rail is street running (Purple Line Maryland). That WMATA is heavy rail (exclusive right of way).

            I know what statements you made, and you failed to reply with any other agencies when asked. Hence why your initial statements are in a word, pointless.

            “The (sic) conservaitive critics almost never make the (sic) critcism and then follow it by saving what systems do better and those would be models for METRO.”

            That’s a broad brush statement made by a hyper-partisan individual who doesn’t even comprehend the short comings with WMATA to begin with. I could describe in detail some of the issues, but you would fail to understand it or even take it as valid (ie Dunning Kruger).

            If you cannot operate in the black without sustainable Government assistance you need to address your faults. Their inability to break even starts with the fact that they cannot provide timely service to their customers, who choose other modes of transportation because of that. That timely service can be partially attributed to poor maintenance practices, poor quality of employee’s and an overall attitude of I’m getting a paycheck that is protected no matter what.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            If you were actually knowledeable , you could cite the other systems that are similar and talk about how they compare.

            ”
            f you cannot operate in the black without sustainable Government assistance you need to address your faults. Their inability to break even starts with the fact that they cannot provide timely service to their customers, who choose other modes of transportation because of that. That timely service can be partially attributed to poor maintenance practices, poor quality of employee’s and an overall attitude of I’m getting a paycheck that is protected no matter what.”

            Can you show systems that don’t have these issues?

            Can you name the top 3 systems that don’t have these issues and don’t need subsidies?

            or do you still want to posture and claim credentials as if a EE degree makes one an expert on anything?

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I did cite the other systems that compare, the very question I asked and you baulked at.

            What’s the point, you’d just refuse to accept it anyways, again much like what you’ve been doing this entire time.

            “Posturing”? I work in the field and have stated such, I am an ATC (Automatic Train Control) Engineer. Relatively certain that makes me a hair more knowledge than you the retired federal janitor.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            People who REALLY know – don’t posture and strut and engage in personal attacks.

            You don’t know guy.

            You did not cite any actual system comparisons, you waved your hands and tried to claim you knew more about transit and rail and therefore “better”.

            I asked a simple question. List the systems that are similar to METRO and how they rank/rate.

            That’s the original question. I don’t care if you are a EE or anything else you claim. If you are REALLY a qualified person, you should be able to easily provide cites.

            Otherwise, your main role here seems to be to go attack othersand strut your “credentials”.

          14. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “People who REALLY know – don’t posture and strut and engage in personal attacks.”

            That is the most outlandish thing I’ve ever heard. I didn’t “personally attack” you, however you’ve questioned my credentials without a shred of evidence to back up your statements.

            I did, I named the authorities who operate a system just like WMATA.

            No, you went on your usual rant about “conservatives”.

            You don’t even know what type of system WMATA is, if you really wanted that question answered could ask Google.

            https://wallethub.com/edu/cities-with-the-best-worst-public-transportation/65028

            “That’s the original question. I don’t care if you are a EE or anything else you claim. If you are REALLY a qualified person, you should be able to easily provide cites.”

            That is the most asinine statement I’ve ever seen, you do realize that the above mentioned authorities have NDA’s the preclude people from discussing their internals right? That’s pretty much standard practice in business.

            Your main roll here is to blather on continually devoid of fact, intelligence or reason. You will argue with people till your blue in the face how they are wrong, when they are the SME’s and you’re just a pensioner with too much time on your hands.

  17. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    President Trump has spoken!
    and finally signed the COVID relief Bill (after much complaining).

    The $830 Million Xmas present has thus been delivered to Metro. With a big red bow from Sen Warner.

    That’s a good thing, since I was hoping this post was not premature. But my stocking was empty…and I have a big 6-foot tall stocking, and nobody ever puts anything in there.

  18. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    President Trump has spoken!
    and finally signed the COVID relief Bill (after much complaining).

    The $830 Million Xmas present has thus been delivered to Metro. With a big red bow from Sen Warner.

    That’s a good thing, since I was hoping this post was not premature. But my stocking was empty…and I have a big 6-foot tall stocking, and nobody ever puts anything in there.

  19. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Matt and Larry, if you continue engaging in personal attacks against one another, I will delete your posts. Please find something else to talk about.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Mr. Bacon,

      Go for it, unclutter the board.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Jim – I don’t know who this guy is but he has gone after multiple people on this blog over time and you have called him on it before.

        I just return the favor when he keeps on doing attacks and you do not rein him in.

  20. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Matt and Larry, if you continue engaging in personal attacks against one another, I will delete your posts. Please find something else to talk about.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Mr. Bacon,

      Go for it, unclutter the board.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Jim – I don’t know who this guy is but he has gone after multiple people on this blog over time and you have called him on it before.

        I just return the favor when he keeps on doing attacks and you do not rein him in.

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