Bacon's Rebellion

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Wow, Huge Majority of Virginians Supports Public-Sector Bargaining

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by

James A. Bacon
in

Chicago teachers strike, 2019. Credit: Orinoco Tribune

by James A. Bacon

The Wason Center at Christopher Newport University issued a new poll today which finds, among other things, that Virginians favor collective bargaining rights for public employees by a whopping 68% to 25% margin.

If that’s not scary enough, the poll likely understates the support for public-sector collective bargaining. Thirty-six percent of poll respondents identified themselves as Republicans compared to 34% Democrats — clearly under-sampling Democrats in a state which voted for Joe Biden over Donald Trump for president by a 54% to 45% margin. Equally disturbing, 44% of the respondents identified themselves as various shades of “conservative” compared to 4o% who described themselves as various shades of “liberal.”

How is it possible that a strong majority from this particular pool of people supports allowing public employees to join unions and negotiate for higher wages and pensions — a practice that is laying waste to state and local finances in states from California to Illinois, New Jersey to Connecticut? 

Something has gone very, very awry.

Could the results be tainted by the way the question was asked?

Here’s the question:

“Currently, Virginia public employees do not have collective bargaining rights, which is the right to join a union and negotiate a contract. Do you support allowing public employees to the right to collective bargaining?”

That strikes me as pretty straightforward.  I expect that we’d get very different answers if the question reminded respondents of the potential negative impact on fiscal integrity and taxes. But, then, Wason likely would have elicited even stronger support had it couched the question in terms of “fairness” for government employees. I can’t think of any less biased way of asking the question.

Speaking as a small-government conservative, I find this polling result terrifying.  Virginia Republicans and conservatives have failed miserably in winning the war of ideas.

This year the Democrat-controlled General Assembly passed a law ending the statewide prohibition on public-sector collective bargaining. Beginning May 20201, cities, counties, towns, and school boards will be allowed (but not required) to authorize collective bargaining for their employees

Conferring collective-bargaining rights upon public employees, as I have written previously, will feed the symbiosis between Democratic elected officials (who will happily grant more lucrative pension benefits to their constituents) and public-employee unions (which will donate generously to Democratic officials). Virginia’s public-employee pension system is already under-funded by billions of dollars. The inevitable juicing of benefits will only make matters worse.

Higher taxes. Higher housing costs. Higher energy costs. Bigger pension liabilities. Failing schools. Young people leaving the state. Virginia is becoming New Jersey — without the vast accumulation of industrial-era wealth that allows the Garden State to survive its maladministration.

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55 responses to “Wow, Huge Majority of Virginians Supports Public-Sector Bargaining”

  1. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Ummmm because so much of the state is occupied by carpetbaggers?
    Flee the NE but bring the politics with you.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Nope, I think the basic argument that workers have a right to collectively bargain, if they can get the numbers to form a union, is widely accepted. Most other states do allow it for public employees in some form. The devil is in the details. Can individuals choose not to join, and if they do, are they forced to fork over dues anyway? Can their involuntary contributions be spent on politics? Strikes? Does the union contract overly protect bad actors (as we’ve seen with the police in some recent cases?) Virginia held out in the public sector a long time, and has not gone all in, but I suspect it will (state employees next).

      I see the downsides Jim sees, as well, but with this New Blue GA it was coming. Right now within the schools you see the AFT and VEA posturing for dominance, to the detriment of the students.

      The defensive line that needs to hold is the Right to Work Law and it would be wise for the Assembly to impose some limits on how far contracts can go interfering with employee discipline and dismissal.

    2. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      I believed that right up to the day that Henrico County flipped from Republican stronghold to reliable Democratic county. Something deeper that northern migration to NoVa going on.

  2. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    We do need some way to define if the survey results are true or flawed. The analogy in my mind, currently certain universities are recently coming up with studies suggesting high toxicity of natural gas stoves in the home. We need some kind of referee, some point/counter-point, before we publish these Univ studies as gospel truth. Presumably heating up “bacon bits” in the microwave is pretty bad too on paper calcs, so we have to be realistic (wishful thinking, I know).

    Being from trade-union-central (NJ), I had some run-ins (with union coal plant advocates) and probably preferred Virginia approach until now. Let me just stick my neck out and suggest NJ’s state tax policy probably spreads the extra tax burden more evenly over income ranges than Virginia, so if you are in the middle class in Virginia, good luck!

  3. wpeabody.fcta Avatar
    wpeabody.fcta

    Even FDR warned us about gov unions. Nothing scarier. See France for results.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    This is funny. When does one realize they are in the minority on some issues? Or do they ever really accept it?

    This might explain why the GOP has trouble with it’s “messaging”?

    😉

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Hell, counting!

  5. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    Ask someone if they want whipped creme on their hot chocolate and they’ll probably say Yes. Tell them it will cost $5 and you’ll get a different answer.

    Part of the issue is that generations of Virginians have no experience with monopoly union contracts. Ex-NYers like me (and ex-NJers, ex-Illinoians, and ex-Californians — among others) understand the costs of government worker unions … in fiscal costs (bloated pension systems), work rule costs (teachers forced to “work to the rule” to the detriment of kids) and public safety (more Derek Chauvins protected by the union and the contract provisions).

    So, for many, the notion of collective bargaining is just free whipped creme on your hot chocolate. The costs come only after its too late.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      But on the basics – they do believe that employees have rights and if your answer is that they cannot have them because bad stuff happens – it won’t fly.

      That’s the problem with Conservative thinking. You need to find a way to give workers a fair shake AND to not let corruption happen downstream.

      If you do not do that – then you lose – and then we all lose.

      Ya’ll have to re-think this.

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        “That’s the problem with Conservative thinking. You need to find a way to give workers a fair shake AND to not let corruption happen downstream.”

        So tell me, oh wise one, what method have Liberal/Progressive thinkers come up with to “give workers a fair shake AND to not let corruption happen downstream.”?

        And exactly when and where did they accomplish this feat?

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          That’s easy. They just define deviancy down, or redefine what behavior is considered corrupt.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Not all unions are corrupt and not in all states…. to start with.

      2. Doug1943 Avatar
        Doug1943

        You are not wrong in general. Unions have had very good effects — from a conservative point of view — in some, perhaps many, situations.

        Case in point: the International Longshoreman’s and Warehouseman’s Union on the West Coast, created by Communists in a general strike in San Francisco in 1934, and then led for decades by a CP dues-cheater from Australia. It turned casual laborers — who would show up at 6am and maybe get chosen to work that day — into regular paid workers with a steady job, able to start a family and take out a mortgage.

        Just what conservatives want to see.

        But … unions mean power — ‘countervailing power’ to the employer, to use JK Galbraith’s term — and as we know, power (can) corrupt … so you get unions that have used their power to bargain unrealistically higher wages, and thereby bargained their workers out of a job. Or have used their power in other ways that eventually led to their own destruction. Great Britain can provide many case studies of this, from the dockers union, to the unions representing the newspaper trade, to, most spectacularly of all, the miners.

        Interestingly, the CP dues-cheater leading the ILWU was a smart guy: when containerization began, and it became clear that the number of longshoremen needed to load or unload a given ship was going to decrease drastically, instead of holding out for no decrease in union numbers, he accepted that they would have to decrease, but by ‘natural wastage’. So no existing union member suffered, but the union shrank in size by nearly an order of magnitude.

        Conservatives, of which I am one, need to learn to address the needs of the working class, which has now been abandoned by snotty Lefty college grads. This is the supreme lesson of Trump.

        We need a political party — hopefully a transformed Republican Party — which is socially conservative, sensible on national defense (a long discussion could be had here on what that concretely means), and middle-of-the-road economically.

        The day when conservatism meant whatever the Chamber of Commerce wanted is over.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Your primary point: ” Conservatives, of which I am one, need to learn to address the needs of the working class, which has now been abandoned by snotty Lefty college grads. This is the supreme lesson of Trump.”

          Except that Trump does not give a rats behind for them either, he’s used them to his political advantage more than anything substantiative to help them.

          If one believes in the fundamental concept of collective bargaining but opposes unions because SOME of them have become corrupt then change some of the rules that would allow more frequent re-votes to change unions or leadership.

          And if you REALLY want to SHOW that you really do care for workers then go after employers that prey on workers – like those who hire undocumented rather than us E-Verify. Make E-Verify a no-exception, mandatory program that will, at the same time, make the employer responsible for hiring illegals AND those jobs then become available to legal workers WITH protections.

  6. Emilio Jaksetic Avatar
    Emilio Jaksetic

    The Wason Center indicates the poll involved interviews with 906 registered voters. According to the Virginia Department of Elections, there were 5,975,696 registered voters in Virginia as of November 1, 2020.

    I am curious: What is the basis to conclude that the opinions of 906 registered voters reflect views that are representative of the 5,974,790 other registered voters?

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The basic idea behind polling (as you undoubtedly know) is to select a random sample of a population. The statistics behind a poll indicated the “level of confidence” that this sample is representative of the whole. All polls have “margins of error” to account for the possibility that the sample is not representative. Finally, look at the reputation of the poll. This polling operation has been around for awhile and has established its credibility.

      1. Doug1943 Avatar
        Doug1943

        Someone — you? — needs to write a simple guide to statistics for conservatives, who, like almost everyone else, generally don’t understand the subject.

        There’s a good book, Statistics Without Tears, which explains all of the critical issues, including the question of what an adequate sample size is.

        It ought to be emphasized in school far more than it is — very few people are going to need to know how to solve a quadratic equation by completing the square, but everyone should know what a standard deviation is.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Not understanding data, beyond just polling, underlies opposition to science in general, the pandemic and climate change also.

          1. Doug1943 Avatar
            Doug1943

            The problem is, ‘understanding data’ is not always a neutral exercise.

            Give me the data about the behavior of red ants, and I will read it with a neutral attitude. I won’t just naively assume the total mathematical competence of the people who did the study — you are no doubt familiar with the work of John Ionaddis, and with the ‘replication crisis’ in general — but I won’t assume various sorts of political bias on their part either. (Not with ants … with chimpanzees, possibly.)

            If the published work has not been refuted by other entomologists after a few months, I will not be afraid to cite the conclusions of their work if the occasion arises.

            Now … I promise you that I do NOT have the same casual attitude towards politically-charged questions, like the pandemic and climate change. Here, until I have done a ton of reading of all sides, I just remain agnostic — assuming there are scientifically-competent people who dispute the consensus, as there are on both of these questions. And I have not done such reading.

            (Although being a conservative, I err on the side of caution, and also apply cost/benefit analysis to proposed actions, personal or social. So I will get vaccinated as soon as possible [I don’t believe Bill Gates — as much as I curse him sometimes trying to use his software — is going to steal my DNA and kill me off as part of an Illuminati plot to reduce the world’s population by 90%] and I wear a mask in public places. I don’t oppose on principle state subsidies to renewable energy research, and I wouldn’t buy any beachfront propety.)

            But on the undeniable statistical results of race and IQ studies, I know enough to keep my mouth shut. And if I were working for a ‘woke’ corporation, I would of course stay silent as well on all poltiical issues.

            It’s not as if we are living in a free society any more, after all.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Appreciating your viewpoint.

  7. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    I don’t disagree. Employees should have rights. Without corruption.
    The problem is that union leadership doesn’t see high costs, imposing workplace restrictions and returning bad cops to the street as “corruption.” They see it as “doing their job as union leaders.”

    The question was in the blog was: Why did Virginians support this? The answer is: Because they do not yet know the consequences.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      But if you demonize the consequences and show no support for the concept……….. how does that advance the issue?

      If you say you support workers but you won’t support legislation that supports them and instead only talk about bad consequences… ….

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      Mr. Braunlich what troubles me the most about teachers and collective bargaining is this: an endless war is unleashed between school boards and teacher unions. Each side seeks to punish the other with strikes and lockouts. When both sides bargain they will only bargain for the all mighty dollar. The interests of students and the public good become window dressings for gaining the upper hand. Virginia school boards are at a decided disadvantage. They have no power to raise money on their own, they must go to county board of supervisors or city councils for money. Teachers think they are going to get a big raise? Look at what happened in California. They stole from the salaries of veteran teachers to give the young professionals a big pay bump without having earned any spurs for it.
      https://californiapolicycenter.org/collective-bargaining-hurts-teachers-and-students/

  8. John Harvie Avatar
    John Harvie

    How about damn few polls are EVER correct?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      The polls were certainly wrong about the POTUS contest – AGAIN!

      A good state to look at polls is California because in California, citizens actually have the right to put legislation on the ballot and it usually ends up with information campaigns from all points of views and it’s no guarantee that one sid will win.

      One of the ballot initiatives in California was about Uber and similar workers being treated as employees or independent contractors. California and most other states and EU was arguing that they should be employees. California voters voted that they be independent contractors.

      Not over yet but ballot initiatives basically result in education campaigns so that voters will learn more.

      And actually in Virginia that’s exactly what will happen. The public sector issue will be a local issue.

  9. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    Here’s a thought: Limit collective bargaining to wages only. Agreed?

    While you mull that over, some reading on teachers: https://fredericksburg.com/opinion/commentary-a-bad-lesson-about-collective-bargaining-in-schools/article_89d11d1f-9112-5101-bd88-9511e6a0e8a9.html

    And police: https://dailyprogress.com/opinion/opinion-commentary-on-police-unions-virginia-is-heading-in-wrong-direction/article_79114e19-56fa-524d-b20f-313c8faff199.html

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Well no, don’t necessarily agree. Unions, done right, help workers get fair and equal treatment from employers. All employees are treated fairly and equally and cannot be targeted by a bad principal or administrator.

      That’s EXACTLY what VEA does right now by the way – and I don’t think that should be gotten rid of.

      FLS Editorial page in Fredericksburg has been taken over by the right-wing, in case you have not noticed! 😉

      And no, you won’t win by pointing out the worse examples!

      There are unions that work just fine and there are ones that do not. What is the difference? Why view all of them as the worst of them?

  10. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    Thank you. If that is EXACTLY what the VEA does now, then why the need for collective bargaining? So we agree!

    I think there’s a need for a VEA. In Fairfax County, where I served on the school board, their effectiveness was helped by a nimble American Federation of Teachers union unit — everybody was kept on their toes.

    But I also think there’s a need for alternative, independent, non-union affiliated, non-political educator associations offering twice the liability insurance (VEA’s major selling point) for half the cost. Unfortunately, those alternative associations are often not given the same access to make their case to employees, thanks to rules imposed by administrators who were … (wait for it) … members of the VEA at one time. With exclusive representation under collective bargaining, those teachers will have even less access, much to the detriment of their’ pocketbooks.

  11. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    With the exception of striking, I just don’t see it as much different than many other unions like UPS and the Airlines Pilots , the shipyards at Norfolk, etc…

    I actually think unions could improve public education if it ends up making more principals accountable for their schools instead of scapegoating teachers for failures.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Yeah, and all of those folks get screwed over too.

    2. warrenhollowbooks Avatar
      warrenhollowbooks

      “I actually think unions could improve public education if it ends up making more principals accountable for their schools instead of scapegoating teachers for failures.

      As if THAT hasn’t been tried in countless places already?
      “Scapegoating, ” since when are unions known for scapegoating their own members?

    3. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      The difference is that public schools are a monopoly in Virginia. Unless you are wealthy enough to pay for private school there is effectively no school choice. UPS, airlines, etc all have to deal with active competitors. If the employees push too hard there will be no jobs at the company to push for.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Isn’t that true of all public sector unions?

        It’s not just the wages. It’s fairness and equity in work rules so that all employees are subject to the same rules.

        On the pensions – as far as I can tell, the contributions to the pensions by the employees is set by VRS/the state. The localities cannot give them “more” as a result of “negotiation”.

        The State / General Assembly can decide to make pensions “sweeter” but as pointed out earlier, many states that have unionized teachers also tend to be among the better public school systems.

        I really don’t have a problem with teachers getting good pensions to be honest. No more than I also do with regard to police.

        But the bottom line is that if they don’t stick up for themselves, the politics will screw them over every time.

  12. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jimbo. The times, they are a-changing. And you are a dinosaur.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Wow! What a terrible thing to say about dinosaurs. After all, small children love them.

      Just kiddin’ James. No, really.

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=tightropetb&p=you+tube+i%27m+a+little+dinosaur#id=5&vid=5fd77f240db94c9f6a10b7da9be0584d&action=view

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Really? You use Yahoo! search?

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Only where I have to.

  13. warrenhollowbooks Avatar
    warrenhollowbooks

    The results are not very surprising considering how the question is phrased(cleverly loaded in my book) –
    -A) it refers to collective bargaining three times as a “right” AND then says a certain group doesn’t posses that right,
    B) it doesn’t use the word “strike” anywhere,
    C) it uses the vague term “public employees”- how would people feel if it specifically mentioned teacher or even more so, police?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/27152425/FT_17.01.27_unionsCorporations_favorable.png

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        Is that supposed to illustrate some point you are trying to make?

    2. VDOTyranny Avatar
      VDOTyranny

      Always quick with the survey results, Larry. You’re the man!

      Also, survey says 98.53% of respondents feel they’re being screwed by the man

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      A. Collective bargaining is a legal “right” under the law for some groups of employees and not for others. How else would you phrase it?
      B. The legislation allowing collective bargaining for public employees explicitly retained the prohibition against public employees going on a strike. If they do, the law provides for them to be fired.
      C. I think the general public is smart enough to realize that police and teachers are public employees.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Collective Bargaining WITHOUT the right to strike is very much Union LITE. I’d be curious to understand what additional capabilities teachers would have under collective bargaining than they now have under VEA.

        Employers really don’t have to even negotiate if they do not want to , right?

        Even during the pandemic – all teachers could actually do with a strike-less union is vote; if they walked out and the school boards and Administrators disagreed, they could be fired so what additonal “rights” will they have?

  14. novalad Avatar
    novalad

    In a past life, I paid tuition doing oppo research into labor organizers. The energy differential between local Democratic groups working with public union officials vs. private sector organizers is insane; particularly in RTW juristictions where Dems of the McAuliffe variety predominate. But if you model modern American state governments as essentially corporatist, it makes sense. Their effective constituents are major employers’ Government Affairs teams and the state-capital mandarins, not voters or “private sector employees” if you want to take that as a coherent class. “Voters” don’t often affect policy outcomes, and nor do they horse-trade or rent-seek. They just vote, often irregularly.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Voters don’t affect policy outcomes? Then, why have elections? I think it is very apparent that Virginia voters in 2019 affected policy outcomes in the 2020 General Assembly. Otherwise, there would not be so much wailing and gnashing of teeth on this blog.

  15. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Even though (or maybe because) I spent my whole career in state or local government (with just a smattering of the private sector thrown in), I am not in favor of public employee bargaining.

    That said, I think it would be useful to help comfort some of the fears expressed in the comments to this post. One major fear has been that of runaway pension costs. Ordinarily, that might be a legitimate fear. In Virginia, not so much. All state employees, including the State Police and other public safety employees are automatically members of pension plans administered by the Virginia Retirement System. Many teachers and local government employees also have membership in these plans. The level of benefits available to members of VRS are set out in state law and are quite generous. Unless changed by the GA, those benefits could not be negotiated by any union.

    Many major local governments have their own employee pension plans. I have a feeling that the terms of those plans would be more susceptible to bargaining and negotiation.

    The major objection to public employee bargaining (for me, anyway) would be the possibility of strikes. The legislation passed last year authorizing collective bargaining on the local made it clear that the state’s prohibition of public employee strikes was not affected. The current and future law provides that any employees participating in a strike “shall be terminated”.

    I agree with Steve that the GA should put some restrictions on the degree to which collective bargaining agreements can affect employee discipline. The Republicans tried such legislation in the special session, but their bills were ignored. Maybe they will gather more traction in a regular session when emotions are not quite as high. Or maybe it will take a tragic incident (bad cop or teacher not getting fired) to get the opponents to listen to the arguments.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      A well thought-out position and argument, as per usual.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      You really hit the nail on the head with the pension issue. A lot of states run into issues with their pensions because of contribution levels.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        It’s an easy chip in the bargaining process. Many states and businesses find it easy to give a pension promise to counter an immediate demand and then raid it later. Airline pilots for instance. Of course there are dozens of books covering the pension issue from both sides, nevertheless, it’s still tilted in favor of the employer.

        “RETIREMENT HEIST: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Eggs of American Workers” by Ellen E. Schultz.

        A good read.

    3. Chris Braunlich Avatar
      Chris Braunlich

      A couple of random comments in response:
      — the collective bargaining law does not apply to state employees, only local employees. Also exempt are Sheriff Depts., Circuit Court Clerks, Commonwealth’s Attorneys offices.
      — You’re quite right that a number of local jurisdictions have their own pension plans, and this is where the real potential increased costs would come in.
      — Having served on the Fairfax School Board years ago, I know that when times get tight Boards want to give their employees things that don’t require direct $$$, which is where the issues surrounding discipline and workplace rules will come in (which frequently cost hidden dollars, but its not in the budget immediately). As Nancy (or whatever his/her name is — why can’t people be upfront?) suggests later these are “easy chips in the bargaining process.”
      — Sadly, Dick, you may be right: It will take a “tragedy” for people to understand what is at stake here. Folks in IL, NY (“rubber rooms”, anyone?) and elsewhere already understand the ramifications.

  16. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I think it can go both ways on the “bad employee you can’t fire” issue when the employee is a supervisor who has instituted a working environment that is based on favoritism and loyalty rather than doing the job as laid out in their contract.

    Teachers are under tremendous stress from both their employer and parents, and they basically end up doing exactly what the principal and higher ups dictate no matter what is in their position description.

    And they cannot really escape. The principal can put the kiss of death on you if you try to transfer. “No one else will want you unless I say so”.

    I also want to point out that some of the best K-12 school systems in the country – in Massachusettes and New Jersey are both unionized.

    A unionized workforce holds ALL employees accountable including supervisors.

    Right now, we have individual schools in places like Fairfax and Henrico that are truly terrible academically but who do we blame ? The teachers of course, not the principals and administrators.

    Principals of poorly performing schools should be held accountable – and if multiple principals don’t fix the problem then the administration should be held accountable – not scapegoating teachers.

    Unions tend to also hold the supervisors accountable.

  17. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    Public schools in Virginia are monopolies. Worse, they are monopolies where you are forced to pay for the product whether you use it or not. Pretending that this is similar to the hyper-competitive airline business is just silly.

    If teachers want the right to collectively bargain then parents should get the right of school choice. Vouchers and liberalizing the charter school laws would be a good step forward.

  18. Top-GUN Avatar
    Top-GUN

    Unions,,, invented by White Yankees to the north of us who didn’t want competition from inexpensive black labor coming up from the south…
    Yes unions stiffle labor competition.. You would think the 1st amendment freedom of association clause would allow me to deal directly with a potential employer for a job,,, but no, when their is a union involved you can’t do that. So even if you’re the best most productive guy out their you get the same pay as the worst employee… Unions are just a part of socialism, dumbing everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Corporations stifle labor also, And look at how corporations use and prey on undocumented workers.

      What unions do is protect workers rights. They do not prevent firing a bad worker but they do prevent mistreating individuals – like women and others like they have done for decades.

      Both unions and corps have good and bad.

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