With Defeat in Connecticut, Will Virginia Drop TCI?

By Steve Haner

First published this morning by the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy.

Why do Virginia’s leaders run away from the Transportation and Climate Initiative? Could it be because the first state legislature to consider it, in reliably Democratic Connecticut, just adjourned without even taking a vote on the proposed carbon tax compact, despite strong support from Democratic Governor Ned Lamont?

The Virginia Department of Environmental Quality has called a June 24 public meeting to discuss efforts to ramp down carbon dioxide emissions from transportation sources, but it made no mention of the pending TCI interstate compact. Instead it focused on the General Assembly’s approved 2045 goal of “net zero” emissions in all sectors of the economy, including transportation.

Reaching this target will help Virginia do its part to address the climate crisis, improve air quality and public health, and tackle inequities in our transportation network. The first step to these efforts will be public outreach and engagement by DEQ with support from our project facilitator AECOM. This project will inform an upcoming DEQ report that will investigate strategies to accelerate low-carbon transportation solutions and ultimately eliminate greenhouse gas pollution from the transportation sector,” DEQ wrote.

Is the stated goal of TCI, a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions by 2033 achieved by taxing and rationing gasoline and diesel, no longer considered sufficient by Virginia leaders seeking to avert to claimed catastrophe of climate change? Will some different “strategy” be proposed? Or are they just pretending to back away from the TCI approach for the time being? June 24 may finally bring the issue to light.

More information on TCI and its impact on Virginia can be found in this short video produced by the Thomas Jefferson Institute.

The DEQ meeting call came out the same day as the Georgetown University Climate Center was hosting another webinar on the TCI program, rolling out a new Model Rule version and a long summary of the recent round of public input, which elicited a detailed comment from the Virginia Manufacturing Association among hundreds of others.

Industry groups with an interest, pro or con, would be well served to review the new documents, which also include more details on how the state-based panels that will advise on spending the money must be controlled by environmental justice advocates, communities considered overburdened by transportation-relate pollution, and advocates for low-income residents.

Organizers resisted the push in the comment process to expand the target that 35% of the fuel carbon tax funds – which could be billions of dollars – be spent on those priorities. But the new documents make that 35% figure a floor and explicitly allow a larger percentage.

Also resisted were efforts to increase the targeted reductions beyond the stated 30% over ten years, although it is now mandated that will be reviewed three years in. Efforts to expand the use of carbon offsets were also not adopted, but what carbon offsets might be allowed will be left to the member states.

The new documents are now open for another round of public comment through August 13 on the TCI-P Public Input Portal.

During the 90-minute virtual meeting June 10, the June 24 DEQ meeting was referenced as a sign of Virginia’s “great conversation” over TCI, which made the DEQ announcement language harder to fathom. As the only hard proposal on the table, the discussion should continue to focus on TCI and voters should be informed about it during the coming election season.

Any proposal that seeks to wean Virginians more quickly off internal combustion engines, in cars, buses or work vehicles, is likely to produce even higher consumer cost than the considerable hit TCI would create. An analysis sponsored by Thomas Jefferson Institute put the figure at more than $700 per year for a family.

Only three states and the District of Columbia have indicated they will join the interstate compact so far. In the District and Massachusetts, legislative approval is not being sought. In Rhode Island, the issue is still in play.

Where Connecticut stands now is unclear, but its representative on the call said the Lamont administration remains committed and is exploring how it can move forward. The bill on the subject never came to an actual vote outside of the adoption of a substitute, and the analysis on the legislative website doesn’t even hint at a likely consumer cost.

The online CT Mirror account linked above is strongly pro-TCI, but gives credit for the defeat to a strong response based on the likely consumer cost:

But TCI’s legislative meltdown is clear, and it began when Connecticut Republicans, local oil industry leaders and other business groups labeled the potential gas price increase a “gas tax” that would trickle down as price hikes in everything from gas to groceries. Even though the “tax” label is inaccurate, it stuck, and TCI supporters were unable to deploy an equally effective counter-punch.

 

In the coming months, Virginians will decide for themselves if the “tax label is inaccurate,” unless in this state TCI continues to simmer without any news coverage or political debate.


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99 responses to “With Defeat in Connecticut, Will Virginia Drop TCI?”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Here’s another:

    ” In 2018, 28% of global electricity was generated from renewable energy sources, most (96%) of which was produced from hydropower, wind, and solar technologies. In its International Energy Outlook 2019 (IEO2019), the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects that renewables will collectively increase to 49% of global electricity generation by 2050. Of the top three renewable sources”

    https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41533

    and one more:

    ” Japan built the world’s third-largest economy on an industrial base powered by imported oil, gas and coal.

    Now, it is planning to shift a big chunk of that power to hydrogen, in one of the world’s biggest bets on an energy source long dismissed as too costly and inefficient to be realistic.

    The change is a vital piece of the country’s plan to eliminate carbon emissions in 30 years. If it succeeds, it could also lay the groundwork for a global supply chain that would finally let hydrogen come into its own as an energy source and further sideline oil and coal—similar to the way the country pioneered liquefied natural gas in the 1970s, some experts say.”

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/japans-big-bet-on-hydrogen-could-revolutionize-the-energy-market-11623607695?page=1

    Rather than the govt mandating restrictions, it appears that the private sector is way ahead of the game.

  2. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    The climate change discussion has an interesting parallel in the search for the origin of the COVID-19 virus. Vanity Fair has an exhaustive article documenting how the debate has shifted from an accidental episode cause by biological transfer to an accidental release from a lab in Wuhan, China.

    The comparison to Climate Change comes from the Lancet article early in tbe pandemic that effectively waived a magic wand and claimed that the leak did not come from a lab. In retrospect, many of the signatories on the Lancet article stood to lose funding if the leak was traced back to a Chinese lab and “gain of function” experiments.

    The Vanity Fair article describes over and over again how scientists funded to do virological research tried to stamp out any serious inquiries as to whether the virus leaked from the Chinese lab.

    Is there any chance that some of the dire consequences forecast for the environment are being driven more by personal reward than by scientific inquiry?

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      on a worldwide conspiratorial basis ? You bet!

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        “On February 19, 2020, The Lancet, among the most respected and influential medical journals in the world, published a statement that roundly rejected the lab-leak hypothesis, effectively casting it as a xenophobic cousin to climate change denialism and anti-vaxxism. Signed by 27 scientists, the statement expressed “solidarity with all scientists and health professionals in China” and asserted: “We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin.

        The Lancet statement effectively ended the debate over COVID-19’s origins before it began.”

        Nobody knew their ass from page 8 on February 19, 2020. But that didn’t stop the 27 scientists from moving to protect their lab funding by insisting that the virus wasn’t from a lab leak. Because, if it were from a lab leak … maybe their funding would dry up.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Suppose it was a lab leak. What difference does it really make? Why does it really matter that much in the first place?

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      “Is there any chance that some of the dire consequences forecast for the environment are being driven more by personal reward than by scientific inquiry?”

      Definitely! Even 100% assuredly if you consider the continued breathing of our descendants a “personal reward”.

    3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      I *never* thought the US climate change debate was actually about climate change, and that is exactly the point of Michael Moore’s 2020 Planet of the Humans. However, Moore was dis-owned by the US liberals after that.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I always thought MOORE was more of a self-serving idiot than anything legit.

        But yes, most climate skeptics apparently think it’s a worldwide conspiracy type thing among the climate scientists, right?

        This was in WSJ just the other day:

        ” Exxon XOM +2.71% Mobil Corp. and Royal Dutch Shell RDS.A +2.08% PLC suffered significant defeats Wednesday as environmental groups and activist investors step up pressure on the oil industry to address concerns about climate change.

        In a first-of-its-kind ruling, a Dutch court found that Shell is partially responsible for climate change, and ordered the company to sharply reduce its carbon emissions. Hours later in the U.S., an activist investor won at least two seats on Exxon’s board, a historic defeat for the oil giant that will likely require it to alter its fossil-fuel focused strategy.

        The back-to-back, watershed decisions demonstrated how dramatically the landscape is shifting for oil-and-gas companies as they face increasing pressure from environmentalists, investors, lenders, politicians and regulators to transition to cleaner forms of energy.”

        WSJ – May 26, 2021
        https://www.wsj.com/articles/oil-giants-are-dealt-devastating-blows-on-climate-change-as-pressures-intensify-11622065455

        so lots of confusion, eh?

        1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
          energyNOW_Fan

          Shell has been ordered to phase out out of the fossil fuel business by the Dutch courts. That is wild and crazy.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes, I’m quite sure later on the execs had a good guffaw or two. …

            but then again:

            ” One Oil Company’s Rocky Path to Renewable Energy
            Ørsted spent years transitioning away from oil and gas. Now, it is the world’s largest developer of offshore wind energy. The pivot holds lessons for major oil producers targeting solar and wind power.”

            https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-oil-companys-rocky-path-to-renewable-energy-orsted-11623170953

            https://www.power-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2019/05/nicholas-doherty-1320345-unsplash3.jpg

  3. tmtfairfax Avatar
    tmtfairfax

    Equity. What about the huge number of low-income people who regularly drive their cars or trucks to work and/or use them as part of their job? How about people on fixed incomes who drive for shopping, services and medical needs? How does increasing the cost of living for these people become “equity”?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Perhaps the same way we do for other – means-tested credits?

      why not?

      I can see a new program – “CASH for guzzlers” 😉

      1. tmtfairfax Avatar
        tmtfairfax

        What none of the buffoons running Virginia understand is that a means-tested program like this that relies on transfers from other users will absolutely crush people who are a bit higher-income than the subsidy cut-off. And there just aren’t enough super-income people to pay for these programs. Moreover, anytime anti-climate change-related credits can be traded, the Wall Street types get the money.

        I think I’d vote for the candidate who said “I’m very concerned about climate change but even more concerned that I may screwup things even more when I try to fix it. Let’s push the crazies on the left and the crazies on the right out of the discussions and try to figure out what’s going on.”

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Sounds like a pitch for Youngkin, no?

          1. tmtfairfax Avatar
            tmtfairfax

            Maybe it’s just getting older. But grandiose plans from the government to fix global issues when it cannot do the basics just don’t cut it.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Well.. we’ve had grandiose plans before to defend ourselves against evil that would destroy us. We apparently lack the courage or brains to do it again for a threat just as dire.

    2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      Democrat solution to the tax inequity is to ban gasoline, since carbon taxing is not fair to lower incomes, to make electric cars double-super-subsidized for lower incomes. Some form of this is already happening in Ca, for a few years now electric subsidies are doubled for low incomes.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I was reading this in the WSJ this morning: [ ] = my comments

    “GM Looking to Build Second Battery Factory in U.S.
    General Motors, in a joint venture with LG Chem, aims to expand its effort to power electric vehicles;

    Already, the two companies are building a $2.3 billion [yes, that’s billions] battery plant in northeast Ohio that is expected to open next year and eventually supply enough batteries to power hundreds of thousands of vehicles annually. The new plant is likely to be a similar-size investment, some of the people said.

    GM, the nation’s largest auto maker by sales, has set ambitious targets for converting its global lineup to electric vehicles, revealing its aim earlier this year to phase out gas-engine models from its showrooms by 2035. [14 years from now]

    The rush by GM and other global car companies to sell more plug-in models has stoked concerns among auto executives and analysts over future battery shortages and has led some auto manufacturers to get in the business of making their own battery cells, often in joint ventures with big battery makers.” [no cited concerns about supply of lithium]

    So I’m wondering if we are tilting at boogeyman windmills on this.

    I don’t see GM and other auto-makers as deluded by ideology and destined to go bankrupt over their assessment. … they apparently think change is not only coming, but underway… and if they are right, the TCI thing likely will be OBE in short order and perhaps politicians are also aware of this and deciding that TCI has bad karma on something that is going to happen anyhow without TCI.

    Disagree?

    1. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
      Baconator with extra cheese

      Just as long as the required metals for those batteries are mined in Countries with Brown and Black populations sans environmental regulations.
      The NIMBYs here won’t allow a new mine but want to virtue signal with green cars while turning a blind eye to devastation in BIPOC countries.
      One of my best memories was the pipeline protestors yelling because there weren’t enough outlets to charge iPhones at a Public meeting. True story.
      And besides how the hell do we build enough charging stations across the country?

      1. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
        Baconator with extra cheese

        I will add I do have a plug-in hybrid. Mostly because I knew huge inflation was on the way.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Which huge inflation is that? The Clinton inflation or the Obama one?

        2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          It would have been cheaper to purchase a siphon for buck fifty.

          1. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            $70 for a cordless reciprocating saw at Harbor Freight and he can steal catalytic converters, too.

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            6 inch hacksaw the kind used for cutting glass. Way cheaper and cleaner cut.

          3. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            That takes longer. You want to make it a quick in and out procedure. And they really don’t care about the neatness of the cut, you get the same money for the converter.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Lithium isn’t perfect, but adding the tailings to the Red State water supplies is a serendipitous psychological benefit.

        1. John Harvie Avatar
          John Harvie

          Both of my lithium mining company stocks operations are outside the USA. I think most are.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, reminds me of the old adage on linearization. A man came out of a bar one night to find a drunk guy looking around on the ground on the corner. “What ya doing, fella?”
            “Looking for my car keys”
            “I’ll help ya.”
            After about 10 minutes of fruitless searching, the man asked of the drunk, “Are you sure you lost them here?”
            “Oh Hell no. I lost them in the field o’er there, but the light’s better here.”

            There’s a reason there’s so little gold and silver mining in Virginia, and no oil derricks off of our coast.

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Because it’s OBE? It’s likely that the automakers will surpass this on demand from the customers.

    Now, let’s outlaw all 2-stroke engines… especially those under 100cc and make suburbia a wondeful place to live again.

    1. Buzzerooni Avatar
      Buzzerooni

      Suburbia has never been a wonderful place to live.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        but people commute hours a day to live there!

        1. Brian Leeper Avatar
          Brian Leeper

          My dad’s commute to work was much shorter before we moved to Manasshole.

          The Washington City Paper did a nice article about Manasshole about 30 years ago:

          https://issuu.com/washcp/docs/greetings_from_manasshole_copy_b0daf16dbc98ea

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Quiet then.

    2. WayneS Avatar

      But two-strokes are fun!

      I am all for improving fuel mileage in internal combustion vehicles and moving towards hybrid and electric vehicles in order to reduce carbon emissions, but I have a strong rebellious streak that periodically urges me to find and purchase on old 1980s vintage Yamaha RZ500 and ride it once a year on my birthday.

      The RZ 500 is a [sort of] street legal replica of the four cylinder 500 cc grand prix race bikes of its era. It has a very peaky but powerful 500 cc v4 two-stroke engine which, when running, emits faint but continuous streams of smoke from its four tail pipes. It leaves a smell like a dozen full throttle chain saws in its wake, and I am sure it releases an almost immeasurable amount of carbon into the atmosphere.

      It is also insanely fast and handles… …well, it handles decently. It is a hoot to ride, though, and it will leave you either terrified, grinning from ear to ear, or maybe even both.

      Fortunately for the environment they are a bit rare and even a bit more pricy. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f24e1191e43e76af9ef41995deface2d734088d864c871ab2ca1ba4ef13c261a.jpg But a guy can dream, right?

  6. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Under the radar (another new Tax), Virginia last year started penalizing Hybrids and other fuel efficient cars over 25 MPG.

    This year I paid a $40 penalty for owning a RAV4 Hybrid. If the Va. Dems keep ramping up fuel taxes, the penalty on fuel efficient vehicles is indexed to the fuel tax. So that penalty will go up and up.

    Of course, if you own a fully electric car, the Dems plan t0 make sure you get 10’s of thousand$ of tax rebates, so you probably won’t have to worry about it.

    Baconator is in limbo land with a PHEV, most politicians do not understand the differences.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I wouldn’t call it penalizing but rather making sure you pay your fair share of the transportation network.

      somehow, some of us started thinking that if we drove cleaner cars, we should get a reward of paying less road taxes even as we continued to use the roads.

      Perhaps we should go to a toll system where you pay direct for what you use no matter what you drive unless you’re carpooling and then get a 2 for 1 deal?

      1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        Are we trying to reduce carbon? No we are not. Liberals have hatred for fossil fuels and want to penalize all use of them, even fuel efficient cars. Only 100% total ban works for the Dems.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          jesus…. it costs money to build, maintain and operate roads – fossil fuels or not.

          How do you want to pay your share of what you use?

          That’s actually a Conservative concept – you know – user pays….

          Now, sure enough, liberals are going to buy electric cars, no question. Silly fools. And some of them even more evil will probably buy solar panels to recharge their cars… oh my!

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            He’s a Republican. His government benefits are good and should be free.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          If we have 1/3 of our electricity coming from renewables and projected to be half 2050 and we are gearing up to build hundreds of thousands of electric cars – isn’t that going to reduce carbon?

      2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        Can we do that with the military as well? User fees only.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          nope and not a lot of other things but we do it for water/sewer, electricity, cable, and other services. Airport fees from passengers pay for airports. Cruise ships charge port fees.. rivers charge lock fees…etc.

          But I get your point. But Congress does not -they’re talking transportation infrastructure and they’re talking increased gas tax…..

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Hell, it added $28 in tax when I upped the registration on a 2016 Camry! Called the “highway user fee.” Hits any regular car with a EPA published mileage over 25 mpg…which is most of them now.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        gonna happen to us also with a new hybrid but we can’t just stop funding transportation…right?

        So what?

        You anti-tax guys…. sometimes it seems you can’t see beyond the word “tax”! 😉

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        My 2000 Mercury Marquis and 2001 Ford F-140 save me from that fee!

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          F-140? Isn’t that pretty rare?

          1. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            It’s a Virginian version of the F-150–not quite all there.

          2. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            You know you live in a bad neighborhood when someone steals the bed off your truck…

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            or that’s all you could afford ! 😉

    3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      I agree. Roads should be paid through general taxation as even those who don’t drive benefit from a well maintained road system. People who use less gas per mile driven, should not be penalized.

      1. Brian Leeper Avatar
        Brian Leeper

        To some degree they are. For example, when Prince William County took out a road bond to fund the construction of the Prince William County Parkway, property taxes, not gas taxes, paid the bond.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Yes, but the other way around – counties collect significant amount of taxes from the “car tax” and the question is – what do they spend it on? general expenses or roads?

          1. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Very little of that car tax money goes to roads, at least in counties. Maybe more of it goes to roads in cities and towns that maintain there own roads.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            but perhaps can be considered to help pay for road bonds…

          3. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            More of the $6000 a year I pay in property taxes goes towards road bonds than the $250 a year I pay in personal property taxes…..

          4. WayneS Avatar

            Where I live, our real estate taxes and person property taxes are about the same every year.

          5. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            That would have been possible with my rental property (now sold) in Fredericksburg. Park a nice new truck in front of a rather old townhouse.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            2017 TOYOTA Tacoma 344.87 1/2 year

          7. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            50 year old townhouse in Olde Greenwich, $600 a year. (It only recently went up, for most of the 20 years I owned it, the taxes remained around $500/year).

          8. WayneS Avatar

            Around $2,000 per year for 10 assorted cars and motorcycles, the newest of which is a 2017.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and how much for say 100K of real estate?

            I can provide you with more detail of real and property if you want.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        and we ALREADY DO – 1/3 of revenues come from the general sales tax! Another 1/3 comes from sales tax on new vehicles and the final 1/3 comes from fuel.

        Paying for roads with sales taxes only would basically destroy the user-pays concept for roads.

        Yes, everyone benefits from roads but people who drive not only get that same benefit but in addition, the directly use the roads.

        Might be interesting if the issue were put to a referenda….

        go here for numbers:

        https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/pdf/tracking_apr21.pdf page 3

        Motor Fuel Taxes $1,020,400
        Motor Vehicle Sales and Use Tax $967,100
        State Sales and Use Tax $1,180,000

      3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        NoVA does pay higher *sales* tax for roads right?

        Not only does NoVA pay higher gasoline taxes (2%) we also pay more point-of-sale sales tax for the roads per former Gov McDonnell’s “great” transport compromise. It shifts the road costs to moneybags NoVA, and kept low gaso taxes, and low sales taxes, on rural Va.

        Furthermore NoVA pays 20-30 cents more per gal due to the old EPA Reformulated Gasoline mandates (RBOB), and we are in a poor pipeline access position, meaning higher pump overhead costs.

        Not to mention Virginia’s new Hybrid fee, which for me is handing Virginia free money for fuel I actually buy in Maryland (due to trips to Pittsburgh).

        I am planning an article to calc how much tax per gallon I already pay as a “Novan” and it is enormous, all things considered.

        Having said that, moving the tax burden to general taxes has some merit, if all states did that.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          NoVa has a regional tax in addition to the state taxes and it’s more than just sales tax.

          see:
          http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/media/2119/wsp-drpt-revenue-advisory-board-draft-presentation-5-16-17.pdf page 4

          All these revenues go directly to NoVa.

          1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            …NoVA gets to use that money because the base fuel taxes paid by NoVan’s goes elsewhere. What other states are bifurcated like that? Mostly everyone pays the same.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I think that’s a claim that I’ve never actually seen proven. Hampton Roads and Fredericksburg make the same claim, i.e. “their” money goes elsewhere.

            Let’s see some proof.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Fredericksburg leaders swear just about every transportation meeting that NoVa is stealing their money….

            I bet most people have no idea what-so-ever how much transportation money is spent in their jurisdiction and whether on a per capita basis it is more or less than other jurisdictions on a per capita basis.

            So we just end up with wild claims.

  7. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    All of or most of these comments buy into the climate crisis narrative. I suggest that instead of blindly accepting it, all of you should look at the actual data. There has been no increase in extreme climate events, increases in temperature, as measured by satellites are less than those predicted by climate models which are demonstrably flawed. Carbon intensity is declining as a result of technology and will continue to do so.
    Government mandates and subsidies just create distortions in economic decisions and penalize the least well off. We have been hearing about this “crisis” for over 20 years and like the horizon, it keeps receding as we approach it.
    A good book that is worth reading is Unsettled by Steven Koonin who is a well respected scientist.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Bill, I don’t listen to one guy. I listen to many.

      And it’s totally true, all models are flawed.

      There is no one model we rely on for Hurricanes.

      There is no one scientist we rely on for hurricanes.

      We look at many.

      And the point is we are not looking for absolute precision.

      We’re looking for ballpark.

      It looks like this:

      https://www.tampabay.com/resizer/C2Rx54sfx7QwElNYChZEFqrYgxk=/620×0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tbt/KPJLR3JS5VCJFMWTPPGSMEA434.PNG

      We don’t need to pick one model or one scientist – only look at the preponderance.

      Do we think when we look at these multiple models that there will be no hurricane at all because none of the model are correct?

      We’d dismiss all these models because they’re wrong?

      So then we have one guy who says there will be no hurricane at all, that it’s “overblown”.

      DO you think because no model predicted the exact path that it “proves” the models are wrong?

      1. William O'Keefe Avatar
        William O’Keefe

        So, have you read Koonin’s book? If so, what do you think he gets wrong?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I have not and I’ll tell you why. Anyone can weave a narrative that sounds plausible, and more so if you are reading it because you have heard he/she writes what you believe.

          When a name is provided like you provide – I will read the Wiki AND the references about him. The opinion of a lot of people across the spectrum. I feel like I DO know his argument.

          here’s one: https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/05/a-critical-review-of-steven-koonins-unsettled/

          here’s another:

          https://climatefeedback.org/evaluation/wall-street-journal-article-repeats-multiple-incorrect-and-misleading-claims-made-in-steven-koonins-new-book-unsettled-steven-koonin/

          How can anyone read both the pro and con reviews and still come away with absolute certainty of one view or the other in terms of what MIGHT happen with the climate? How can you just rule it all out based on one guys idea?

          Attacking models as wrong is silly and really a straw man to boot.

          Like with hurricanes – not a single model is right about track and time of arrival and beyond that they are even less good at things like intensity and flood tides.

          We’ve evacuated entire cities and regions on erroneous model info so why still depend on them?

          Using the bad models argument, we should not rely on hurricane models, and we know that’s a false analogy – and it is the same way with climate science.

          It’s NOT that the models are wrong in specifics.

          But when all models tell you a hurricane is headed towards you – disbelieving them is folly.

          It could turn out the 9 out of 10 scientists got stuff wrong but not likely any more than when all the models tell you something like a hurricane is headed your way.

          Finally, from a Conservative, safe but sorry point of view, you’d not hedge your bets at all, you’d bet the farm you are right?

          What kind of Conservative philosophy is that?

          We’re playing Russian roulette with the climate issue. We simply don’t know with certitude the specifics, but we have ample warnings that are foolish to totally reject and dismiss.

          1. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            That is one of the lamest explanations that I have ever heard. I’d be embarrassed to make it. For your information Steven Koonin is a well respected physicist, held a senior at the University of California, was chief scientist of BP. and then was an Undersecretary of Energy for Science. He is eminently qualified to write about climate change.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            He’s a physicist not a climate expert. And he makes statements thar are demonstrably false about ice sheets and sea level rise.

            The mistake is those who think any degree in science is the same for ALL science. It’s not.

            Read the reviews of his book Bill.

            You guys are like the hurrican party folks – you just refuse to accept the possibility that there could be a real problem, so you just live in denial. If 9 ot of 10 doctors told you, you have a problem that needed to be addressed, you’d go cite the one doc as the expert.

            wrong. wrong. wrong.

            Conservatives usually don’t bet the farm. They are “conservative”. They allow that nothing is 100% but in ya’ll case, it’s 100% denial.

          3. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            How can you say he is wrong about anything since you have not read his book? He draws on literature that I suspect you consider the gold standard. Claiming that he is not a climate scientist is the last refuge of weak arguments. Climate science is a relatively new field that is an amalgamation of several others. Much about the climate systems involves physics.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Much about the climate systems involves physics.”

            Nope. No more than plate tecktonics does or hurricane models, etc.

            The reasons I don’t read him is that it’s boring as hell to read someone like him basically spouting misinformation and outright lies while wearing the mantle of a “scientists”. That’s what the reviews are saying.

            No one knows with any certitude about how the specifics will play out in the future but when you start by saying sea level has not risen and ice sheets not declined – then not much else of your “argument” is worth listening to IMHO.

            For someone to claim to be a scientist to then dispute what is clear evidence to the contrary just totally undermines your credibility.

            Beyond that Bill – 9 out of 10.

            What other things in life do you take the 1 out of 10? Do you do that with your own health? Do yo do that with your finances? How about taking chances on the highway?

            Conservatives are usually known for their careful assessments that are risk-adverse. They don’t typically bet the farm on issues. But when it comes to climate, Conservatives have gone off the rails…

            What is wrong with hedging your bets on Climate instead of just outright denying it? Most “un-Conservative”!

          5. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            I never said what you claim. You repeatedly make stuff up and your comments show that you are just making noise.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            like what – this is a quote no?

            ” Much about the climate systems involves physics.”

            something else?

          7. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            No credibility; tell your made up story walking.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            The thing that puzzles me about Conservatives on this issue is that normally they are “conservative”. They’re not going to go whole-hog for something but they’ll not rule it out completely either.

            And we see this with hurricane modelling a lot. Yes. Not a single one is correct and all kinds of errors are endemic in the models indeed in the field – but at the end of the day – there key thing is that there is a hurricane, it does hit land, and it causes significant damage.

            If you look longer term – how can you possibly say it will never happen, and just dismiss it out of hand 100% ?

            Forecasting – all manner of forecasting from finances, to economic trends, to all manner of things is fundamentally a Conservative idea – the idea that you look ahead and prepare accordingly by NOT ruling out possibilities… you account for them, you assess them for risk and cost-effective look-aheads.

            What Conservatives do with Climate Change is antithetical to the very concept of conservatism but worse than that, in this case it’s premised on a global conspiracy theory – that scientists around the world are “lying” about it.

            Indeed, conservatism these days is pretty much defined by suspicions of people colluding together to foist policies and false facts on hapless conservatives.

            The climate thing actually has morphed into doubt and skepticism about science in general and the pandemic.

            The whole thing has a loony tune aspect to it.

            Is it denial or skepticism? Do you buy some of it a little bit or just deny it all?

          9. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            You are way over the tips of your skis. This is more then the ranting of the uninformed. Why do you equate the reaction to your nonsense to conservatism? Planning for the future
            Should be be based on the best available information,not models that have been shown to be very flawed?

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Planning for the future involves tamping down your own biases and dealing with things you may not know everything about and allowing for that in your thinking.

            “best available information” includes models which ARE flawed – yes – but they are what you have and as time goes by the models get better calibrated.

            Much of your life involves models, but few folks actually realize it.

            If you use a cell phone or navigate with a GPS, you are using a model. If you have investments, decisions on based on models. And YES, they are ALL flawed. The GPS lacks complete certitude.. it has “errors”.

            NOAA weather satellites are chock-full of errors, but you won’t believe ANY NOAA forecasts? Really?

            Farmers. Seaman. Aviators. Wastewater plants, etc, ALL RELY on FLAWED models to make decisions.

            I’m amused on the weather models sometimes, as they will compare and contrast the US models with the “European” models.

            BOTH has errors! BOTH are exceptionally important, even with those errors.

            To reject information produced by models is to be willfully ignorant IMHO.

            You can be a “skeptic” but to deny it all as false without the slightest twinge of doubt?

            No way. That’s the most UN-Conservative thing I’ve ever heard!

          11. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            You keep making irrelevant and erroneous comments. In this case making claims about something that you have not read. That is about as nonsensical as it comes. As I said before tell your story walking.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Nothing at all “irrelevant” about where the word Conservative came from in terms of careful and reasonable approaches to issues rather than just totally dismiss 90% of the science because one guy make a reasonable-sounding argument. Who do you believe? Science as a field or one guy?

            I’m curious Bill. How did you feel about the Ozone Hole issue? Did you believe the science? How about the Chesapeake Bay pollution issue? Do you believe the scientists when they say humans have overloaded the bay with pollutants?

            Same with Ozone. Do you think human activities caused the Ozone holes? Do you believe the science even though you (and I) have no direct knowledge of the historic data or models.

            In both cases, neither you nor I could “see” what caused the ozone or the nitrogen and phosphorous that scientists were implicating. Do we believe them?

          13. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Read the book and then make an intelligent comment. As far as I can tell you are one of those who has their mind made up and doesn’t want to be confused by the facts. How else can you object to a book that you haven’t read?

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I don’t read books from folks who are KNOWN to be promoting a one-sided view AND disavowing known facts such as sea level rise and ice sheets receding.

            I don’t have my mind made up AT ALL about what the future might hold in specifics, no more than I would for things like hurricane tracks or ozone or the Chesapeake Bay.

            I can only go by the data currently collected and listen to science talk about what their various models are showing.

            I do the same with ANY science, whether it’s about cancer or genetics or volcanoes or Alzheimer disease. It’s all the same process. I don’t see scientists as lying or colluding in large numbers to promote lies – like your author seems to think.

            That’s why I asked you about the Ozone Holes. Do you believe the science with respect to Ozone Holes or are you also a skeptic of them also? Are you familiar with Fred Singers view on the Ozone holes? What’s your view?

            Do you believe scientists when they talk about the Chesapeake Bay and the levels of nitrogen and phosphorus and what their models are predicting – which is what we used to determine wastewater plant limits?

          15. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            The fact that you demonize and mischaracterize Steve Koonin’s stature says everything that needs to be said. You dismiss a book you have never read and mischaracterize its contents. You don’t listen to scientists and are not informed by science. Yours is the rhetoric of ignorance and it is on display for everyone who reads Bacons Rebellion.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I don’t BIll. I’m relating to you what reviewers of his book, most of them fellow scientists have said.

            I don’t typically read books that are PRO or CON on issues because I KNOW they are not objective and that’s where his book falls. He’s really not an expert in Climate and he’s writing with a political perspective. He also appears to misrepresent what many consider verifiable facts like sea level change and ice sheet loss.

            And actually I AM informed by science. I asked you about Ozone and Chesapeake Bay , BOTH of which I DO follow the science – as I do for other science like contagious diseases, vaccines, etc.

            I do accept what science says about the Ozone Holes AND what they say about the Chesapeake Bay and I asked if you did and your answer says reams to me as you launch into a personal attack.

            That seems to be the common thread with you guys. Why? Should I call you ignorant and misinformed in return, or a known shill for the fossil fuel industry?

            Unlike you, I do not disbelief science or base my views on certain individuals who write books or hold contrary or skeptical views of science.

          17. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Like I said, without looking at the book you just repeat what others have said and in the process unfairly characterize him and what his book says. I am not a shill for any industry since my association with the petroleum industry ended over 2 decades ago. Who do you shill for?

          18. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I DON’T read books that are obviously one-sided. They are pretty much worthless and most anyone can make a “plausible” argument. The test is who else who has credentials and has read it – agree or not and why.

            I do not latch on to one or two folks whom I happen to agree with when so many others disagree especially on something as profound as this type of issue.

            I rely on the wider community of credentialed scientists in that field to inform me, not the few who disagree and often lack the primary credentials of the field.

            If your guy is right, others will join him and then I will give him more credence, but at this point he seems to making more of a political statement than a scientific one and confirmation bias is involved from the folks who already were skeptics, now liking him because he is.

            I don’t think you shill for the fossil fuel industry, I was pointing out just how easy it seems to be sometimes to hurl Ad Homs at folks and especially so in BR and ask that you refrain from it.

            We can agree to disagree without doing that.

          19. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            That’s a good way to end a conversation that is going nowhere. But you really should read his book. His sources are ones that you accept.

          20. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Bill – I lean to mainstream science for all science, I don’t subscribe to an entire field of science as being corrupt or engaging in a worldwide conspiracy to tells lies about it.

            There are LOTS of critics of science, all fields, and some of them are scientists themselves. but at the end of the day, I’m going to lean to the 9 out of 10, not the 1 and especially so if that one appeals to my own biases… i.e. confirmation bias.

          21. “The reasons I don’t read him is that it’s boring as hell to read someone like him basically spouting misinformation and outright lies.”

            Koonin “spouts lies,” therefore you will not read him. But if you do not read him, how do you know he spouts lies?

            Koonin is not a “denier.” He acknowledges the reality of climate change. He doesn’t criticize the science, or even the scientists, but the ideologically driven people who interpret the science and put it before the public.

          22. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Koonin spouts misinformation and lies about things like sea level and ice sheet loss.

            If you’re gonna talk about science as a scientists – why do you focus on ideology?

            When you do that , you left the realm of science and become part of the ideological realm.

            Koonin – attacks consensus – which is how science – ALL SCIENCE actually works – whether it’s about Climate or genetics or plate tecktonics – but Koonin choose to impugn consensus on Climate by asserting ideology. Do we do this with other science?

            Consensus is NOT flip opinions – it’s assessment of the body of knowledge, of research inthe whole, many studies by many different scientists – and Koonin dismisses it all as ideological motivations of all of those who agree on consensus.

            That’s not science. That’s politics and ideology that HE is projecting on others.

          23. Indeed, Koonin relies upon the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as his main source — you know, Larry, the environmentalists’ gold standard.

          24. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            be specific. His critics say that he is misrepresenting facts.

            so what exactly is he actually quoting from the IPC that is agreed to as facts?

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