Three_stooges_doctor_smallBy Peter Galuszka

You can almost hear the telexes chattering in the predawn hours sending out coded instructions to eager conservative bloggers. It’s a “red state” alert! Plan “R” for “Roger!” Just like Major General Jack D. Ripper. It’s the go code for attacking Obamacare!

So, you have them excitedly dusting off their purple prose. “The worst law since 1789,” or somesuch. They all come from the point that everything was fine until liberal Obama ruined it. He’s a liar. Nobody is signing up.  He promised you could keep your plan.

Well, I found it interesting when I was reading Matthew Yglesias over at Slate.com when he pointed out some interesting points about “keeping” your old plans. Of course, the point may be moot since Obama has bended. But here’s Yglesias’s argument and it’s a good one.

He takes us to the golden years of 2008 “long before Kathleen Sebelius and her jack-booted thugs were stomping on the American health insurance market.” Back then most people had insurance plans and many were happy with them. What seems to be forgotten is that “most of them had no guarantee whatsoever that they would be able to keep their plans next year.”

Every year, co-pays might go up. Companies would pay more. Individuals would have to pay higher deductibles. It was like the constant shifting of sand on a beach.

Yglesias says the ACA does not prevent insurance companies from dropping plans they offer. If they had to keep offering the same plans, they’d lose leverage in dealing with health care providers. Hospitals might demand outrageous fees and the insurer couldn’t say no.

What’s been happening is that Obamacare encourages the termination of a certain type of insurance plan involving a legal term called “rescission.” This applies specifically to “pre-existing conditions.” Let’s say Joe Blow is happy with his plan. He doesn’t pay much because he’s healthy. Then he finds out he has cancer or some other serious illness. In many cases, insurers either would claim they were deceived about the “pre-existing condition” and not pay his claims or they would use it as an excuse to cancel the policy the first chance they got.

Why? “An insurance company has no desire to actually foot the bill for a seriously ill person’s medical treatment,” Yglesias writes.

When I had a problem when I was rejected a few years ago from getting an individual plan because of a “pre-existing” condition (now well under control),  I consulted a doctor friend of mine. He said: “Are you nuts? Why the hell would they want you for a client? You’re almost 60. Within a few years you might actually cost them some money.”

So, what we’re seeing is a lot of whining and miscommunication over a certain type of plan that is a sort of extended scam. It should be ended anyway. You pay little because you are healthy. The companies might nice profits. You live comforted knowing that if you suddenly have to go to the hospital for something like a bike wreck you’ll be OK financially.

Just don’t dare get sick with something serious.


Share this article



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)


Comments

43 responses to “Why Some Health Care Plans Aren’t Worth Keeping”

  1. well.. it’s like I said. health care is a mess. It has been a mess for decades and has just gotten worse and there are those who want to do something and there are those who go hide in caves except when they come out to curse the darkness.

    saying the wheels have come off on it is like saying the Titanic has a course correction “issue”.

    and I will not defend Obama… for taking a stupid pill – but at least give credit – he did step into the breach – and the critics are about as feckless as can be.

    we live this lie that “Americans LOVE their health care” like we do not have 30 million without insurance and millions more living in fear that if they lose their job, they lose their health insurance. Like one of the reasons why we pay twice what other countries pay is that we force our uninsured to go the ER – where prices are 4 times as high – and we pick up the tab.

    It’s okay to call ObamaCare the worst idea since the Edsel – as long as you have a better idea.

    the pretenders say that ObamaCare has made things worse.

    really?

  2. Now let’s see. The Republicans are poked (and rightly so in my opinion) about government interference in health care decisions. But if the choice is between government interference and Obamacare tanking, the Democrats say “we need to interfere.” He needs a big subsidy to cover those with preexisting conditions. He backed off a major raid of the Treasury to prove those who said Health Insurance Reform would break the bank. So he needs to get the same revenues from young, healthy people, by forcing them to purchase coverage they don’t want or need. So Uncle Sam decides certain policies are not adequate (i.e., don’t cover enough non-existent risk to subsidize the very existent risk for older people).

    The anti-abortionists are at least honest enough to say that they want to prohibit women from making a certain health care decision. Why won’t Obama be honest enough to say he wants to prohibit decisions that prohibit his massive expansion of health insurance?

  3. Not totally following TMT’s thinking.

    we already have a massive govt presence in healthcare – called EMTALA and it basically says that if you are young and don’t want to buy insurance, we’ll take care of you.

    That old socialist Ronald Reagan is who signed that law that allows insurance scofflaws to take money out of other taxpayers pockets.

    I’ve not heard a single GOP advocate getting rid of “free” care for those who choose to not have insurance.

    I still ask – do people know how ObamaCare is being funded?

    part of it is from the young but most of it comes from other sources including using the subsidy that used to go to Medicare Advantage.

    If we charged the retirees who have 85K in income – a proper premium for health care – we could use that money to pay for others who can’t afford health care… and not need the young to pay.. anything…

    I do not believe Obama is any more of a socialist than Ronald Reagan was – who not only signed into law the EMTALA law (that gives free medical care to free riders) , but he also supported and signed into law – the earned income credit – a significant direct wealth transfer to the working poor.

  4. reed fawell III Avatar
    reed fawell III

    I expected the base elements of Obama care to fail and said why. See: https://www.baconsrebellion.com/2013/10/will-they-or-wont-they.html#comments

    But never in my wildest dreams did I expect what the Obama Care’s “roll out” is leaving in its wake, the daily destruction that is going on.

    At the rate it’s going this thing could conflate into a tragedy of immense proportions. Are we rapidly reaching the point (or have we already reached that place) where it is impossible to put this thing back together again before it explodes into the functional collapse of our federal government?

    Blowing up vital parts of peoples health care system along with 20% of our economy might now be only part the on coming train wreck. I’d sense now we’re headed into a Constitutional Crisis. Mix all of that in with the looming debt, deficit and budget fight, and our fragile economy, and the rising chance of a major war in the Middle East, plus the abysmal track record of our current ruling elite in Washington in solving our problems…

    THEN ADD IT ALL TOGETHER,

    And I wonder if our “leaders” are capable of pulling us out of the black hole they’re dropped us into before enormous collateral damage takes its horrible toll. The center might not hold. Events may spiral out of control.

    We desperately need some adults to step into the void of leadership.

    1. re: “adults”. If we had leaders who actually had a real alternative to ObamaCAre, we would not be where we are, now would we?

      The GOP has played the role of street vandal with ObamaCare .. they never wanted it to succeed.. and .. .they had no alternative of their own.

      Normally – governance is a context of ideas. One side proposes legislation, the other side counter-proposes.

      People make compromises – and we move forward on what we can agree on.

      but you can’t do that with one side opposes what you propose and they have no proposal of their own – AND they are not willing to compromise anyhow!

      leadership? I think if you’re expecting leadership from the GOP, you’re in trouble.

      I’m actually curious to see what they are going to run on at the next election?

      by then – ObamaCare will likely have millions of newly insured.

      what will the GOP do?

  5. how come every other OECD country in the world – a total of more than a billion people – can provide Universal Health Care for 1/2 what we do and we cannot?

  6. DJRippert Avatar

    Peter makes several do-gooder mistakes in this column.

    First, he gets confused between strategy and ability to execute. While some of the strategic aspects of Obamacare may be valid the execution of those strategies is far, far beyond the competence level of our federal government. The vast amount of money from special interests flowing into the federal government corrupts that government to the point that it can’t acceptably implement even the best strategy – let alone a flawed strategy like Obamacare. In other words, it might be emotionally gratifying to root for the Chicago Cubs but don’t go to Vegas and bet on the Cubs to win the 2014 World Series. Betting on our federal government is like betting on the Cubs. You wouldn’t have won either bet in over 100 years.

    Second, Peter doesn’t recognize the elements of fraud. Let’s say I am a new car dealer. I go on television over and over again saying that I’ll credit you whatever you paid for your current car toward the purchase of a new car. My accountant tells me that this is an impossible promise to make. It will bankrupt the dealership. I hear the accountant but repeatedly make the claim anyway. People come in. They give me their old cars. I promise to send them a shiny new car along with a check for whatever they paid for their current car. Instead, I send them a letter saying they were stupid to pay so much for their old car so I will send them a new car and a much smaller check than I promised.

    What should happen?

    First, the fraudulent scheme should be immediately halted. Second, I should get my old car back with no responsibility for buying a new car. Third, the car dealer should be prosecuted for fraud.

    Please note – in no way should the question of what I paid for my car be brought into question. I may have paid too much. However, that is irrelevant to the fraud. The fraudster does not get to claim innocence by claiming to have “been right all along”.

    Obama committed willful fraud against the American people in order to get his controversial health care bill passed. Had he told the truth it is very likely that the extremely closely contested health care bill would have failed. Frauds cannot be allowed to stand. Obamacare should be rolled back and we start again – this time, hopefully without fraud.

    1. reed fawell III Avatar
      reed fawell III

      Terrifically enlightening?

      One of the horrible consequences of the Presidents deceptive behavior, and the deceptive behavior of his senior underlings, is that their misconduct legitimizes similar misconduct by everyone else in government service and private enterprise, particularly private enterprise that seeks work on the public dole and/or under public contract, or by favor of special interest laws.

      This pernicious influence is spreading throughout all levels of our society. The Presidents grossly misleading “shovel ready project” rationale for the near billion dollar stimulus package put this toxic misbehavior on steroids.

      Since there were “no shovel ready projects”, the President despite his promise gave away hundred of $billions that build nothing and created almost no jobs. Remarkable, the President got away with this gross falsehood. Why? Because his handing out money for little public work served only to undermine the ethics of those who received it.

      So no wonder, given his success with the false “shovel ready promise,” he thought he could do same when selling his Obama care plan on the basis of an unequivocal promise built knowingly on a complete falsehood.

      Thus the billion dollar shovel ready project deception later morphed into the Mother of “You can keep your healthcare, Period” deception.

      And that is plainly what it was, an intentional deception of the American People. Why did he do it. Because he’d done it before with great success.

      In both cases the need was just the same. Earlier, the only way to justify and “sell” the billion dollar stimulus was to tell the American people he was going to spend a billion dollars to put America to work, building JOB CREATING shovel ready jobs the build things for future generations. But when nothing got built and the money largely evaporated the President claimed a grand success that we’re still waiting for. And no one remembers the false rationale he gave for his actions.

      Next up, the only way to sell Obama care was to promise the American people that they could keep their existing policies if they liked them PERIOD. But here the Presidents actions would do exactly the reverse. Instead of giving people free money, it would directly take away their money, their own choice, their own rights, and their own investments.

      Thus the President’s falsehood amounted to a fraud on the American People. For it was those very same people who earlier had been given the Presidents promise and who had relied on it, who now are having their policies forcible taken away from them because the forcible taking is the ONLY WAY THAT Obamacare can have any chance of working at all.

      EVERYONE INVOLVED with Obamacare knew this, including the President. So they and he surely knowingly and repeatedly lied about it. Just like he earlier lied about with shovel ready jobs. But with the first lie he was handing out money, so got away with it, even joked about it later.

      But, with this latest Presidential lie, the President is taking money out of the pockets of those very people that could “keep their plans, Period.”

      Thus, this whole sordid matter cannot stand. It must be completely reversed by any and all means necessary. Otherwise a gross injustice, indeed by any standards, a criminal act will be allowed to stand.

      1. re: ” EVERYONE INVOLVED with Obamacare knew this, including the President. So they and he surely knowingly and repeatedly lied about it. Just like he earlier lied about with shovel ready jobs. But with the first lie he was handing out money, so got away with it, even joked about it later.”

        hahahahahha

        how come FAUX News and the GOP did not know?

        re: it must be reversed…

        more delusional thinking… 40 votes to repeal… and not a single Replace.

        you cannot win with nothing.

      2. Reed – you’re off the deep end here boy.

        just one:

        ” Since there were “no shovel ready projects””

        are you aware of how many VDOT projects that had been killed for lack of funding were re-started with the stimulus?

        we had 3 alone in our county guy. they were dead and got revived with stimulus money.

        why do you go back to the stimulus in the first place?

        are you not just piling on in a very partisan way here?

        1. reed fawell III Avatar
          reed fawell III

          Larry, I have seem our President joke several times about the fact there were no “shovel ready jobs” so as to get a laugh out of his audience.

          1. because it’s a common theme but the truth is that quite a few projects in Va were done with stimulus.

            they were literally “shovel ready”.

  7. DJRippert Avatar

    Exhibit A in the “Federal government is too incompetent to execute change” –

    http://wapo.st/1awMJEb

    By the way, would anyone care to wager whether the ObamaFraud web site will be “working” by Dec 1?

    1. the GPS and NOAA weather satellites that you may be using – were designed and built by contractors.

      re: “working by Dec 1”

      who cares? what the realistic alternative plan if it does not?

      the GOP has no plan – and no opportunity to stop this, right?

      what are you boys smoking?

  8. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Do gooder mistaks. Hmm! Funny.

    According to this morning’s Post, the “government” was really a bunch of NOVA-land IT contract firms that screw up, melt away and reform, sort of like the Robocop in the Arnold movie “Terminator II.”

    So, should be be blaming “government” or the concept of outsourcing everything to some NOVA-land private contractor.

    DJR, this is YOUR world! Fire away!

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      The company that was hired (without competition) is a Canadian firm with a long history of failure on government contracts.

      If I buy a plastic fireman’s helmet in the toy store at Wal-Mart and then wear it while I ride my motorcycle I shouldn’t be surprised when I get hurt in a fall.

      Of course “the government” couldn’t actually develop the web site. Are you kidding me? Nobody who knows their ass from page eight would think that something like that could be done by government employees. The question is whether government employees are sufficiently competent to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to hire others to write the web site. Apparently not.

      Meanwhile, the head of the federal division of that Canadian firm with the sole-source contract was a college chum of Michelle Obama.

      You do the math.

      1. reed fawell III Avatar
        reed fawell III

        Of course American Management Systems (ABM) has been around forever by IT standards, plop down in the center of northern Virginia.
        Everyone in the its business knew AMS. It’s record was a thousand miles long. Based on Don’s referenced Washington Post article, this thing could reasonable be expected to be a train wreck from the very start.

        Yet, it seems plain that no one in a position of responsibility and power did a damn thing about it for three and one half years. This lack of even the most cursory oversight boggles the mind.

        This website debacle = Million Dollar Bus Stop X one Billion Dollars.

        This proves my point that “This pernicious influence is spreading throughout all levels of our society.”

        Arlington County, long been a paragon of fiscal virtue, decided that if the Federal Government could waste vast amounts of the taxpayer’s money, then so could Arlington County. And Arlington is only the beginning. For example, those building the Silver Line in Fairfax County and expanding Dulles Airport in Loudoun County caught the same disease.

        One thing for sure; when history is written, the waste and fraud of our public’s money will become the grand hallmark and legacy of our age.

        1. reed fawell III Avatar
          reed fawell III

          Corrected initials should be “AMS” for American Management Systems, the long time American Company founded and headquartered in northern Virginia that was acquired by the Canadian Firm referred to in the WaPo article.

  9. Keep in mind that Al Gore’s commission on reinventing government found the Social Security Administration could reduce its operating costs substantially by staggering the mailing dates for SS checks. But when the union found out about those cost savings, it contacted the VP’s office and the proposal was dropped. The federal government cannot be trusted when it comes to federal jobs. Probably not federal contracts either.

    If Obama had been selling securities and lied about whether a person could keep his/her existing health insurance, the SEC would be all over Obama’s backside. The president of the United States lied about a material fact about his signature program. Do you think there would have been sufficient support for the ACA had the president been truthful and said “The ACA works to provide coverage for those with an existing condition if and only if we can force enough young and healthy Americans into the pool. If they don’t subsidize sicker people, the ACA fails”? What if the president had said, “If your existing policy doesn’t provide sufficient subsidies, you cannot continue to purchase your policy, but must convert to a more expensive policy”? Obama never said this. He purposely mislead the American public. He’s in a class with Bernie Madoff. Obama should resign.

    1. reed fawell III Avatar
      reed fawell III

      Here some very basic rules apply. A few among the many include:

      Force driven by immense centralized power bent on gaining control of people by force feeding them goodies for the purpose of gaining their addiction and dependence surely undermines all cultures and the societies that manifests it.

      Currently, best I can tell, we’re headed down the road of 19th century China.

    2. DJRippert Avatar

      He should be sharing a cell with another fraudster – Bernie Ebbers.

      Also, have you noticed that Bush prosecuted the executives at the companies in the Clinton-inspired dot com / telecom meltdown? Have you noticed that OFraudma has done nothing to the banksters that caused the “Great Recession”? He hasn’t even foredoomed the banks. We’ve gone from too big to fail to too big to survive.

    3. reed fawell III Avatar
      reed fawell III

      Here are two other base rules that are becoming ever more apparent:

      1/ Any Public/Private partnership is by definition driven by government power and monopoly fueled by cronyism and incompetence leading to fraud.

      2/ A government let contract to a private company is a variant on a Public/Private Partnership as same is defined above.

    4. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      “The ACA works to provide coverage for those with an existing condition if and only if we can force enough young and healthy Americans into the pool. If they don’t subsidize sicker people, the ACA fails”?

      Well, except those things are not really true – they are slanted in such a way to lead to a false conclusion.

      Pooled care works when you have an entire pool, throughout your life. Everyone gets old if they live long enough, and everyone gets sick at some point. The system is set up so that it works if you participate throughout your life.

      You are less likely to need it when you are young, more likely to need it when you are old, and no one can afford to pay for it out of pocket unless they are very rich – which is why we pool insurance in the first place.

      Calling that subsidizing is a distortion. It’s math, and it’s how insurance works.

      Further, this second point is also not factually correct. ” What if the president had said, “If your existing policy doesn’t provide sufficient subsidies, you cannot continue to purchase your policy, but must convert to a more expensive policy”?”

      There is nothing in the benefits for policies that provide subsidies. The goal is to get to a standard policy such as all employers use. You cannot price a policy well picking out little bits of coverage that are applicable to this subgroup and little bits applicable to that subgroup – the fudge factor alone in the math will make the prices astronomical. What you get with those “lean” policies is generally essentially nothing, that most people don’t have the math or insurance knowledge to understand is nothing.

      I get extremely frustrated to see people talking about HOW INSURANCE WORKS and acting as if it’s some falsehood thought up by politicians. The norm in health insurance is an employer policy that takes all comers, pre-existing condition or not, old or young, and provides the same benefits to all, regardless of gender. By that pooling, you are able to get reasonable rates – and that’s with the adverse selection that does occur because people seek out jobs to get insurance.

      The goal of the individual marketplace appears to be simply to do individual coverage the same way you do group coverage.

      1. re:

        ” Everyone gets old if they live long enough, and everyone gets sick at some point. The system is set up so that it works if you participate throughout your life.”

        like Social Security. the idea that you don’t need to get insurance until you need it – is dumb but it’s prevalent among the young AND among those who have few assets and are fine with others taking the hit.

        what do young people think when they get hurt, go to the ER and they have no insurance? what are they thinking?

        what are the rest of us thinking when that happens?

        this whole issue is about individual financial responsibility for costs that you will incur at some point in your life and what exactly are the critics of ObamaCare thinking with respect to the financial responsibility aspect?

  10. DJRippert Avatar

    foredoomed? reformed. Maybe even spell checkers make Freudian slips!

  11. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/363994/prosecute-healthcaregov-andrew-stiles

    Why isn’t Obama held to compliance with Section 5 of the Federal Trade Act? What did Ed Asner say? Oh, I get it.

  12. Let’s assume that ObamaCare fails.. no way in heck it will given almost no ability of the GOP to do it but let’s assume for the sake of argument that the next “REPEAL” vote (yes there will be more) – convinces enough Dems in the Senate to roll over and vote for REPEAL and let’s suppose for whatever reason the POTUS agrees to give it up.

    what happens next?

    this is how bankrupt the opponents really are. this is no “next”.

    they hate ObamaCare but what would they do instead?

    What they would do instead – is what they are doing now with issues like immigration. There are no answers on the hard issues from the GOP these days.

    so the convenient excuse is to blame others who actually try to do something.

    It’s NOT OKAY to attack the POTUS unless you have an alternative.

    it’s hypocritical.

    are you going to tell me that no GOP, no FAUX news, no opponents of ObamaCare KNEW that people would lose their insurance until now?

    this is totally bogus ….and disingenuous coming from people who support no alternatives… just attacking someone – they were opposed to from day one anyhow…

  13. Hypocritical! The President of the United States knowingly lied to the American people about their ability to keep their existing health insurance as a means to get the bill passed Congress. And he’s been lying continuously ever since. I honestly believed Obama. I had problems with the law, but truly believed people who were satisfied with what they had could keep it.

    Even neo-lib David Gergen blasted Obama’s lie on CNN today. Why would anyone believe the President on health care now? Knowing that his law would force people off policies that satisfied their needs in order to obtain the subsidies needed to expand coverage to those with preexisting conditions, Obama and his minions repeatedly told people that they could keep their policies. Why is this acceptable? What is the standard? A President can lie to the American public repeatedly in order to get his signature policy passed!

    1. He did … I agree and he made the situation worse. But the truth is that the people who oppose him and ObamaCare have no alternatives -and never did and you cannot have clean hands playing “gotcha”.

      this is worse than Cheney causing thousand of young people to actually lose their lives over a lie?

      I do not defend the POTUS in his lie. but was he the only person who knew?

      None of the 4-years worth of opponents knew?

      what is the “standard”? Okay you tell me. Did Nixon lie about Watergate? Did Reagan lie about Iran-Contra? Did Bush I lie about read by lips? Did Clinton lie about Lewinsky? Did Bush II like about WMD?

      did the above POTUS lie “repeatedly” ?????

      what does this prove?

      does it negate all the rest of the accomplishments of each of those POTUS?

      DO I condemn Reagan – his entire 8 years because he lied about Iran-Contra or got 200+ Marines killed in Beirut?

      Do I condemn Clinton for having the Cole blown up on his watch or screwing up Black Hawk down?

      I can go on but each POTUS has lied… you asked the standard…

      what is it?

      when you oppose health care and you have no alternatives… there is a lack of virtue and a taint of hypocrisy – in my view.

      hammer the POTUS for his mistakes -yes – but what about the issue itself?

      the opponents had nothing before and they have nothing now.. other than more of the same continuing hate and vitriol that has gone on for 4 years.

      you cannot be opposed without alternatives and still have virtue ( in my view of course).

  14. the idea that the govt is incompetent is just plain bogus.

    it has it’s failures, yes, just as Corporations do – anyone want to talk about the “competence” of Blackberry or Blockbuster video?

    but let’s talk about GSP and NOAA satellites, F-16 fighters, the George washington carrier now in the Philippines or the fact that millions of people each month receive their Social Security checks on time and millions more get their medical bills paid by Medicare and TRICARE or the highways you use have reasonable safety designs (not perfect) or the traffic signal you go through is green for you while red for others.

    this whole anti-govt concept is coming from wacko birds who will cherry-pick the govt failures to claim that any/all govt is incompetent.

    The NTSB is not incompetent. The FAA is not incompetent. The FBI/CIA/NSA, Seal team 6 , Guantanamo Bay is not incompetent.

    The US Coast Guard or the TSA is not incompetent. The US Customs service that does your passports is not incompetent. The FDA, CDC and VA are not incompetent.

    the point here is that no organization, no corporation, and no govt is without it’s problems.

    but to use such problems as an excuse to tag the entire enterprise as incompetent ..is.. well.. it’s just ignorant… we have way too many wacko birds these days but the bottom line is – the govt is no more or less incompetent than any other human endeavor and to promote that idea is just foolish and ignorant.

    1. reed fawell III Avatar
      reed fawell III

      Larry, I strongly believe in good government. Recall the explanation found at: https://www.baconsrebellion.com/2013/11/why-conservatives-hate-smart-growth.html#comments

      Since good government is critical to our health, wealth, and security, highly improper actions by government should be called out loud and clear, especially when those acts rise into habits that violate the rights of citizens. Calling this conduct out is a duty, irrespective of ones political party.

  15. I agree.

    what I question is the apparent double standard.

    but more than that – the narrative that government is corrupt and incompetent and especially so when folks you did not vote for are in power.

    the narrative that govt is corrupt and incompetent is questionable.

    it’s even more questionable when it is applied with more vigor against those you do not agree with politically.

    there is no socialism in Barrack Obama’s proposals if you honestly go back and look at prior POTUS actions on similar issues.

    to accuse this particular POTUS of socialism is scurrilous when folks like Reagan supported the earned income credit, and Bush signed the Medicare Part D legislation.

    to accuse this POTUS of lying – compared to Bush and Cheney and WMD is a joke or Reagan with Iran-Contra or Clinton with Somalia…

    what exactly is the standard? Is it partisan or not?

    Here’s the mistake.

    The dems believed they could reform health care.

    it was a heavy lift.

    It had been tried by Clinton and the Conservatives killed it and they killed it
    by advocating individual mandates.

    Bush – who knows what happened? this is the same guy that wanted to privatize Social Security then turned around and approved TWO new programs – Medicare Part D which most people know but the other was Medicare Part C which was a government subsidy of the 20% Medicare individual responsibility. It made no sense .. it basically subsidized the 20% that Medicare recipients were supposed to pay – their skin in the game.

    but the point here is – that not a single person called Bush a socialist for doing that.

    Our politics are toxic.

    we have become so partisan that outright lies are fine …. both sides..

    Obama screwed the pooch, yes.. but he did not kill thousands of young Americans.. he was actually trying to achieve the opposite.

    he promised to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan and what did the opponents do ?

    they attacked him as being a coward… a squish.

    this is the level of dialogue now in this country…

  16. reed fawell III Avatar
    reed fawell III

    I think my record on this website is quite clear. Party makes no difference.

  17. Reed. Have you been as critical of McDonnell and Cucinelli as you have Kaine and Warner and other Dems?

    Have you been as critical of Bush as you have Obama? What would you give Obama credit for – seriously?

    maybe I’ve not been paying attention, eh?

    1. reed fawell III Avatar
      reed fawell III

      Larry says “maybe I’ve not been paying attention, eh?”

      Obviously Larry, you have not been paying attention.

      I have never criticized Kaine and Warner? I don’t check peoples party before I express an opinion. I check their policy or action.

      Thus I have criticized McDonnell administration and their related republican allies and business interests (als0 primarily Republican) constantly and harshly for the pass nine months on the basis of litany of specified policies and actions. I have criticized both of the recent Republican and Democratic candidates for Governor, and endorsed neither. Last time I looked Bush is not a public official nor making any current news on this website. If he was I’d treat him like anyone else.

      I don’t criticize people simple because of the party they belong too. I’ll criticize anyone’s policy or actions should I disagree with either, irrespective of their party, and the fact that I am a registered Democrat. Only the substance of actions and policies should count here. To act otherwise is to be an ideologue or someone who does not think and act for themselves.

      1. reed fawell III Avatar
        reed fawell III

        For one of very many examples that prove my point see comments found at:

        https://www.baconsrebellion.com/2013/08/let-the-sun-shine-in.html#comments

        1. I’m not seeing where you criticize specific people on a non-partisan basis guy.

          you said this: ” One of the horrible consequences of the Presidents deceptive behavior, and the deceptive behavior of his senior underlings, is that their misconduct legitimizes similar misconduct by everyone else in government service …”

          but I look at all POTUS in terms of “lying” but also in terms of “actions”.

          It’s one thing to lie about something that was intended to help people even as there is disagreement about how – and “lying” when it results in people sent to their deaths over words like WMD or “lying” when people are kidnapped and sent to GITMO and held incognito without charges… or tortured.

          It’s hard for me to see the severity of what Obama did – compared to some previous POTUS whose lies resulted in deaths of people, thousands of deaths and thousands of mutilated young people – all over a lie.

          Obama lied – yes he did – and it’s not an admirable quality in anyone including politicians but if you judge him in the context of other POTUS, as to the impacts of the lie, I’m not sure why he deserves to be highlighted as worse.

          the current narrative casts this POTUS as his “Katrina” as if that was the worst thing that Bush did … it was not.

          1. reed fawell III Avatar
            reed fawell III

            The president lied to gain control of one fifth of the America economy. Doing it, he he lied repeatedly over a long period of time to the American people. Doing it, he knew that if he told them the truth he would almost certainly not be able to drastically change their healthcare the way he wanted to it. So he lied repeatedly to the American People in order to drastically change their personal health care against their will and without their knowledge.

            In addition he lied directly to the very American citizens who would be harmed the most by their relying on his lie, and he did that because he knew that they would likely believe his lie because he was their President and they would think he was telling them the truth. So he intentionally lied to them to get them to rely on him so that he could get his law passed and then do to them the very thing he promised on his word that he would NOT do.

            So after the the bill passed that otherwise would not have passed but for his fraud, and after 2 elections, he did exactly what he had said he would NOT do to the very people he’d promised to protect.

            So in telling this monstrous lie the president passed a life changing law based on a huge fraud that he personal committed.

            Among its many horrible results our President has reeked great harm to the office of the Presidency, and to his own political party. At the same time he has shattered the bond of trust between our government and the American people that he is obligated to serve.

            This harm done is immeasurable and will last a very long time.

            And that harm will spread near and far. It will include, for example, the many public servants forced to lie along with their president, or willingly bought into his lie and kept it secret. Many others who actively supported this law based on the presidents fraud are now tarred as being grossly negligent. They either knew or should have known what they were telling their constituents when passing the law, and failed to alert their constituents as to what was going to happen to them and their nation.

            This will not go away. It is going to only get far bigger.

      2. reed fawell III Avatar
        reed fawell III

        For another example proving the same point see:

        https://www.baconsrebellion.com/2013/11/gop-road-kill.html#comments

  18. Reed – I want you to watch this:

    http://youtu.be/vd7dxmBLg48

    and I want you to tell me did this event convince you that the govt
    is incompetent and corrupt with “bad” contractors… and a POTUS
    who lied about NASA’s ability to function competently?

    When we have disasters like this – does it confirm that Government is fundamentally incompetent and unable to do something right?

  19. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Reed
    One fifth? The auto industry?

  20. re: ” The president lied to gain control of one fifth of the America economy. Doing it, he he lied repeatedly over a long period of time to the American people. Doing it, he knew that if he told them the truth he would almost certainly not be able to drastically change their healthcare the way he wanted to it. So he lied repeatedly to the American People in order to drastically change their personal health care against their will and without their knowledge.”

    No he didn’t. Congress passed the bill. Are you saying that the POTUS lied to Congress and they believed the lie and passed the bill?

    this is pure partisan blather Reed.

    “In addition he lied directly to the very American citizens who would be harmed the most by their relying on his lie, and he did that because he knew that they would likely believe his lie because he was their President and they would think he was telling them the truth. So he intentionally lied to them to get them to rely on him so that he could get his law passed and then do to them the very thing he promised on his word that he would NOT do.”

    you had how many opponents who did not know the truth until the POTUS lied? this is nutty…. The POTUS is the only one who knew the truth from the beginning? good lord Reed.

    “So after the the bill passed that otherwise would not have passed but for his fraud, and after 2 elections, he did exactly what he had said he would NOT do to the very people he’d promised to protect.”

    you’re saying that no one in Congress knew the truth when they passed it?

    “So in telling this monstrous lie the president passed a life changing law based on a huge fraud that he personal committed.”

    did he cause thousands of our young people to die as the result of his lie?

    “Among its many horrible results our President has reeked great harm to the office of the Presidency, and to his own political party. At the same time he has shattered the bond of trust between our government and the American people that he is obligated to serve.”

    more insufferable partisan blather… how many prior POTUS “lied”. Did you attack them all equally for the same sins?

    This harm done is immeasurable and will last a very long time.

    because we will join the other OECD countries in doing health care?

    “And that harm will spread near and far. It will include, for example, the many public servants forced to lie along with their president, or willingly bought into his lie and kept it secret. Many others who actively supported this law based on the presidents fraud are now tarred as being grossly negligent. They either knew or should have known what they were telling their constituents when passing the law, and failed to alert their constituents as to what was going to happen to them and their nation.

    This will not go away. It is going to only get far bigger.”

    you’re saying that every Congressman and his staff – both proponents and opponents were stupid?

    this is worse than partisan Reed… it’s conspiratorial….

    sorry guy- you’re hard over on this… no people died because the POTUS lied and you cannot say that about other POTUS.

Leave a Reply