The Rappahannock River. Photo credit: Va. Dept. of Conservation and Recreation

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

There are some issues that seem to be baked into public policy and, because they affect sensitive and important areas, tend to lead to controversies periodically.

Many years ago, one of the hottest controversies was the “inter-basin transfer of water.” Because Virginia is a “riparian rights” state, folks who live next to rivers can withdraw water from the river, but are not supposed to divert it to use by other people who do not live on the river. To do so would diminish the water available for those other riparian landowners. The Virginia Supreme Court in the 1942 case of Town of Purcellville v. Potts declared a per se prohibition against inter-basin transfer:

While a riparian owner is entitled to a reasonable use of the water, he has no right to divert it for use beyond his riparian land, and any such diversion and use is an infringement on the rights of the lower riparian proprietors who are thereby deprived of the flow. Such a diversion is an extraordinary and not a reasonable use.

The field of water law is a very complex one and that is as far as I am willing to dip my toe into it. Suffice it to say that inter-basin transfer of water is an important concept. For a more in-depth discussion, see here.

In the 1980’s, the City of Virginia Beach, projecting a future need for water that would exceed its access to groundwater, proposed running a pipeline about 100 miles west and dipping into Lake Gaston in rural Brunswick County. The political fight raged for years. Because most of Lake Gaston was located in North Carolina, it became an interstate issue as well. The city finally succeeded and is now pumping up to 60 million gallons of water daily from Lake Gaston. (The city of Chesapeake gets about 10 million gallons from that flow.)

Another epic political battle in Virginia was over the proposal of VEPCO (precursor of Dominion Energy) and coal companies to construct a pipeline to transport coal mixed in water from the coalfields in Southwest Virginia to eastern Virginia. The railroads furiously fought this “coal slurry pipeline.” Although the inter-basin transfer of water was not the major issue in this fight, it played a role. (For a detailed description of this political battle, see Jim Bacon’s article in Bacon’s Rebellion.)

The issue of the inter-basin transfer of water has arisen again, albeit on a smaller scale. As reported by the Fredericksburg Free-Lance Star, Caroline County wants to pump water from the Rappahannock River in a “45-mile pipeline [that] would carry it to the other side of the county for some residential and business growth, but mainly for three large industrial projects proposed in Carmel Church and Ladysmith.” (The large industrial projects are reputedly data centers. For readers unfamiliar with Caroline County, Carmel Church and Ladysmith are unincorporated communities on Rt. 1, but there are exits off I-95 for each one.)

The proposed pipeline would move water from the Rappahannock River basin to the Mattaponi River basin, clearly an “inter-basin transfer” although it would remain in the same jurisdiction. Not only is the owner of land on which the county wants to build its pump station upset, the proposal has raised concerns from folks downstream. A conservation group in Essex County has expressed its concerns. Chief Ann Richardson of the Rappahannock Tribe is upset that the county has not contacted the tribe about its plans. (To be fair, the county seems to have avoided, to the extent possible, letting anyone know of its plans.)

This situation could involve another political hot button: eminent domain. The owner of the 10-acre parcel which the county wants for its pump station says that the larger property that includes the 10 acres has been in his family for generations, and he does not want to sell. “If the county takes possession, it will have to be by eminent domain,” he said. So far, the county has been low-key on the issue, trying to persuade him by pointing out the benefits of the pipeline to the county as a whole.

Eminent domain may not be a tool the county has available. In 2012, in the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London in which the court ruled that states could use eminent domain to seize private property for private development, Virginia voters approved an amendment to the Virginia Constitution designed to prevent the government from doing just that. Section 11 of Article 1 (the Virginia Bill of Rights) allows the taking of private land for public use, but goes on to say that, except for public service companies and railroads, the taking “is not for public use if the primary use is for private gain, private benefit, private enterprise, increasing jobs, increasing tax revenue, or economic development, except for the elimination of a public nuisance existing on the property. The condemnor bears the burden of proving that the use is public, without a presumption that it is.”

That provision would seem to prohibit Caroline County from exercising its power of eminent domain to condemn land for the purpose of constructing a pump station that would benefit economic development. Of course, the county could make an offer the landowner would feel he could not refuse. Such a circumstance, however, would not prevent the riparian landowners downstream from opposing this proposed inter-basin transfer of water.

This case could be interesting and fun to watch.


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101 responses to “Whose Water Is It?”

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      thanks for the link. I meant to include it, but forgot. I have included it for future readers.

  1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    The Loudoun County water case is still talked about in Purcellville. I know a guy, Ned, he has a farm that has been in the family for generations. Refused to hook up to town water and sewer. Still uses a hand pump and an outhouse.

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Apparently, in the early 1900s the cities of Norfolk and Newport News went to the surrounding areas buying lakes and water in their local areas. The small localities from whom they bought the water, i.e., Suffolk, Warwick, and Williamsburg laughed all the way to the bank.

    It didn’t take long for Norfolk and Newport News to get their money back. They virtually controlled development in Virginia Beach and York County. “Oh, you want to build 1000 new houses? Where you gonna get water?”

  3. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Apparently, in the early 1900s the cities of Norfolk and Newport News went to the surrounding areas buying lakes and water in their local areas. The small localities from whom they bought the water, i.e., Suffolk, Warwick, and Williamsburg laughed all the way to the bank.

    It didn’t take long for Norfolk and Newport News to get their money back. They virtually controlled development in Virginia Beach and York County. “Oh, you want to build 1000 new houses? Where you gonna get water?”

  4. LarrytheG Avatar

    The amount of actual water is small compared to the overall flow of the river except during drought – which is the issue. The other watershed, Mattaponi and Pamunkey have much less flow and that’s what’s motivating the focus on the Rappahannock.

    A 45 mile pipeline is not cheap…. so someone is willing to pay some money and I doubt the taxpayers in Caroline are going to be easily convinced.

    Here’s what I don’t understand about the data centers and the water they need. They not destroying the water. When they’re done with it, it will flow back to a river.

    So basically, it seems to be used as coolant… to remove heat from the data center that apparently a modern HVAC can’t do?

    I don’t know. I’m truly ignorant on it..

    But I do know that some industrial facilities recycle their cooling water. They need a large holding pond and something that looks like this: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6b861d277a6d7759de9e365bcc938d9c6bfc6edee87fe3a9f1557a90588926f0.jpg

    They’re often associated with nuclear plants but they’re also found in other facilities that need cooling water.

    North Anna and Surry actually look like this:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8152dd327eb1f7204a142c6055bf18a2a977c7101bb8e57574484869223939f.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/528606fe58a2acedd421964f772f9f812ba20706d693cfa47d06904924214134.jpg

    because North Anna has a big lake and Surry uses the James River.

    So the long and short of it might be that the cheapest, least expensive way to cool a data center is to use a water source to remove the heat then let the heated water flow away and get the next cooling water from the river and use it, then discard, etc, rinse repeat.
    That water will also be much warmer going into the receiving stream during summer raising the ambient temp of the receiving stream which is a small stream not larger like the Rappahannock is.

    Is it basically a matter of economics where the data centers costs are tied to the availability of continuous cooling water without having to recycle and reuse it after going through a cooling tower?

    So access to cooling water might be an advantage that some localities have that others do not , not unlike the need for a nearby major transmission line for a solar farm to be economically viable.

    Or for that matter, access and proximity to a major river to be able to treat sewage and thus offer a lot of sewer capacity whereas a smaller river can’t offer much sewage capacity.

    Perhaps I’m on a wrong track… someone must know….

    there has to be a dang good reason someone is willing to pay
    for a 45 mile pipeline and jump through all these water rights issues…

    by the way……… if you get a map of Caroline and draw a line across it thus:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f492554f94ffe1b1d9dd4bedbaf9d1fb5cd394f571444dbae2775ef086bdb6c7.jpg

    it looks like about 25 miles…

    1. Raising the temp with released water can destroy the local ecosystems. Plants and fish can have narrow habitable ranges.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        And vice versa too. Some of the cooling ponds foster the growth of wildlife all up and down the food chain.

    2. For once, I will agree with you, you are truly ignorant on the issue but I don’t mean that as an insult, most are ignorant as to the water impact of hyperscale data centers on water use. It is a very complicated topic dependant upon the type of cooling system used. It is not as simple as using it as a coolant and returning it to the basin. You have to factor in a number of variables such as evaporation, chemical/salt absorption, temperature, etc. In Virginia the main fight is over the power they consume, not so much elsewhere where water use is the principal concern.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        we are all ignorant, just on different topics and it’s not at all incurable if you work at it.

        All these factors you speak of are probably also true for other industrial including grid power generation but the public reaction is not exactly the same and I almost never see in the opposition
        the truly relevant factors… I know for a fact that there are laws and regulations on a lot of these factors not the least of which is the temperatures of the discharged water going into receiving streams.

        Finally, there is a difference between requiring ANY company to meet the defined standards and NIMBY type opposition that does not want it for all the wrong reasons.

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I don’t know either. However, Microsoft has had a data center near Boydton in Mecklenburg County for decade or so, which it has expanded a couple of times. There is no major body of water nearby. It primarily uses outside air for its cooling needs. https://local.microsoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Microsoft-datacenters-in-Virginia.pdf

    4. VaPragamtist Avatar
      VaPragamtist

      Data centers use on average between 1 – 5 MGD for cooling. Basically the same as a town of 10,000 to 50,000 people.

      You’re spot on with the issue of the cost of the line. Data centers are starting to recognize both the accounting cost as well as the environmental cost of their water usage. Many of Amazon’s new data centers are looking at water reclamation. . .basically recycling water rather than buying 1-5 million gallons of new water everyday. The question becomes, if a data center switches to recycled water rather than buying new water after a few years, then who’s paying the debt service on a 30 year bond on the water line?

      Some additional reading on the issue:
      https://www.pcmag.com/news/big-tech-had-a-water-problem-long-before-chatgpt

      https://news.vt.edu/articles/2022/01/Datacenters.html%20.html

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Right… but recycled water won’t help them if it is still hot… they need cool(er) water for cooling…

        They could have a big pond on site for the water to cool off before reuse… but it would have to be huge…

        The cost of the cooling … is apparently enough to justify a pipeline OR they want the county taxpayers to pay for it?

        1. VaPragamtist Avatar
          VaPragamtist

          The cost of cooling is currently enough. . .but county officials aren’t looking at long term trends in the industry. Will the demand for water be the same over the course of 30 years, or will the water line have to be paid for through some other means in 10, 15, 20 years?

          I don’t know the details about reusing water, just that some companies (Amazon, Google, etc.), are trending that way given the environmental arguments. Currently 20 of Amazon’s data centers use recycled water (including Loudoun County). Google plans to return 120% of water in the next decade.

          More information on how data centers are cooled:
          https://www.datacenterfrontier.com/sustainability/article/21438279/aws-targets-water-use-in-its-cloud-data-centers

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            I’m all in for recycling the water. I’d even like to see their use treated sewage as coolant but it’s
            how to get rid of the heat before re-use or discharge. You need a very large body of water or
            river to be able to moderate the heat and absorb it. Small ponds won’t do it effectively so
            they can reuse…and discharging into small, slow flowing creeks and waterways won’t work
            either. When Birchwood Partners in King George got their discharge permit for the coal plant
            many years ago… it was a big effing deal at DEQ. Since then, I get the impression that DEQ has
            more or less gone into some kind of hibernation… on such issues…

            DEQ ought to be front and center on the Caroline pipeline thing IMO as well as other data
            centers. We have one proposed near the Po River… the Po is not a big river at that location, more like a creek… but unless that plant is 100% recycle, they almost surely are going to discharge.

    5. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I don’t know either. However, Microsoft has had a data center near Boydton in Mecklenburg County for decade or so, which it has expanded a couple of times. There is no major body of water nearby. It primarily uses outside air for its cooling needs. https://local.microsoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Microsoft-datacenters-in-Virginia.pdf

  5. Fairfax County and Maryland fought over riparian water rights to the Potomac River until the Supreme Court ruled in 2003. Really interesting history.

    http://nsglc.olemiss.edu/SandBar/SandBar2/2.4supreme.htm

    On December 9, 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Fairfax County, Virginia, Water Authority legally may build a structure to divert water from the Potomac River for use in Virginia without being subject to regulation by the State of Maryland, despite the fact that the river lies entirely within Maryland’s borders. The 7-2 majority based its decision on its interpretation of key provisions of two historical documents. Chief Justice Rehnquist delivered the Court’s opinion; Justices Kennedy and Stevens filed dissents.

    Background –
    Centuries of Dispute

    Maryland and Virginia have bickered over control of the Potomac River
    since the 1700s. The roots of the dispute reach even farther back in
    time: Virginia’s claims go back to a 1609 charter from King James
    I and a 1688 patent from King James II, both of which included the Potomac.
    Maryland’s claim dates to a 1632 charter from King Charles I, which
    also included the Potomac. In its 1776 constitution Virginia recognized
    the validity of the 1632 charter, but reserved the rights of “navigation
    and use” of the Potomac. Maryland’s constitutional convention
    shortly afterward passed a resolution rejecting Virginia’s reservation.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      That was such a wild ride. Who owned the water, who owned the bottom? And just whose crabs were they?

      Riparian law in the US makes Admiralty Law look like child’s play.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Thanks. I am going to try to remember to look this up.

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      There are states in the West in which water litigation is the most profitable legal career.

      1. Here is just one example of that type of litigation, from two years ago:

        https://time.com/6122947/supreme-court-water-mississippi-tennessee/

        And imagine how many court hearings were held and billable hours for attorneys generated before this issue reached SCOTUS.

      2. In some areas they have built whole cities for millions in the desert because the land was cheap. Problem is, there’s no water.

        Wow, who would have guessed?

      3. Here is just one example of that type of litigation, from two years ago:

        https://time.com/6122947/supreme-court-water-mississippi-tennessee/

        And imagine how many court hearings were held and billable hours for attorneys generated before this issue reached SCOTUS.

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      That was such a wild ride. Who owned the water, who owned the bottom? And just whose crabs were they?

      Riparian law in the US makes Admiralty Law look like child’s play.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        King’s grant and all that also……….

  6. LarrytheG Avatar

    The interbasin transfer issue seems to have receded so to speak but pretty sure the State now requires a permit to withdraw water AND used to be that DEQ enforced regulations about the temperature of the discharged water relative to the ambient temperature of the receiving stream.

    A recently retired coal power plant – Birchwood in King George got a permit to release used cooling water into the Rappahannock. There was a thorough study including what would happen in drought conditions. They did get their permit after a “diffuser” was used vice a discharge pipe.

    Now that the plant was retired and actually demolished.. the owners.. Birchwood Power Partners have asked for and probably will receive zoning for a – you guessed it – a data center that will used that same discharge permit – if DEQ will allow it and I have heard not a whole lot from DEQ on this particular issue nor on other data centers which sometimes happen when new administrations take over and DEQ goes into remission on such issues.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The state requires a permit for the withdrawal of groundwater above a certain amount. I don’t know about surface water.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        “Projects involving surface water withdrawals from state waters and related permanent structures require permits under the Virginia Water Protection (VWP) Permit Program Regulations as directed by Article 2.2 of the State Water Control Law.”

      2. Surface water withdrawal permits have been required since at least the late 1980s, and I think even before that.

  7. Expect more fights over resources in the years to come. With 7,000 migrants pouring over the border per day, the strain on available resources will be felt everywhere.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar

    To gain some perspective on water flow.

    It’s often measured in cubic feet per second. A cubic foot holds 7.5 gallons.

    The average annual flow of the Rappahannock is 1639 cfs. That’s 12,259 gallons per second! That’s 735,000 gallons per minute… and multipleyby 60 to get in an hour then 24 for a day’s worth to get 1,059,177,600 gallons per day.

    Caroline wants 14 million per day out of this many gallons in
    the river: . that’s about .01% of the flow.

    At LOW flow… say 500 cfs… 324,000,000 gallons per day,
    it’s .04% of the flow.

    The Roanoke where the 60 million is taken out has twice the
    flow of the Rappahannock.

    So even in a drought… it’s not a huge percentage.

    An impact that is probably bigger is the temperature of the water when it is returned and if it is sent to another basic with a much smaller river, with a very low summertime flow… the impact could be pretty significant.

    I see little discussion about this in most of the data center proposals and controversies.

    Clearly there are ways to reduce the temperature before releasing into a receiving stream but they all cost money and
    so it boils down to (no pun) how much it will cost to operate
    the data center and if they don’t have to build cooling facilities,
    a lot lower cost.

    But we don’t know how much that is of the total cost of running a data center …say to how much the electricity costs. Is the cooling cost a major percent of the operating cost or is it a nit and they just would rather not have that cost if they don’t have to have it.

    That’s at least part of the discussion that ought to take place with the data center proposals, in my view.

    1. FYI – 14 million gpd is 1.3% of 1.059 billion gpd (normal flow) and 4.3% of 340 million gpd (low flow).

      You must multiply the actual ratio by 100 to get percent.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        you’re correct. The relevant thing is to understand when talking about something
        that is using gallons per day is what percent of the total gallons per day.

        USGA does not measure gallons per day but CFS -cubic foot per second.

        so to compare gallons a day used to gallons of day that actually flows.. you have to
        convert the CFS to gallons… then do the divide and then x100 as you pointed out and I tangled up.

        IF you REALLY want to get confused.. out west they use acre-feet !

        1. Thank you, but I do not need a primer on converting amongst the various methods of describing flow.

          I have been converting cfs to gpm for more than 40 years. The number 7.48 is as firm in my memory banks as my wife’s name. As is 2.31 (the ratio of feet of head to psi).

          And just so you know, acre-feet is not in the same units as gpd and cfs. Those describe the rate of flow of a fluid (volume per unit of time). Acre-feet is strictly a volume measurement (gallons, cubic feet, barrels, butts, etc).

          Acre-feet is used to describe large volumes of water (such as the amount stored in a reservoir) and it is in common use throughout the country. There are 43,560 cubic feet in an acre-foot. And it is a good deal easier to write(or say) 52 acre-feet than it is to write (or say) 2,265,12o cubic feet or 16,943,098 gallons.

          A unit of measure such as scre-feet per year is comparable to gpm and cfs. With that said, I have never personally described water flow in acre-feet/year (would that be abbreviated AFY?)

          1. Of course. I am a civil engineer specializing in water and wastewater.

          2. Of course. I am a civil engineer specializing in water and wastewater.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            so you’re likely familiar with the USGS gauging stations and how they operate and how they calibrate at those sites?

          4. Yes.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            Do you have other ways to determine flow in a stream if there is no USGS gage?

          6. You can get a ballpark estimate it, but it will be more accurate if you have some idea of the cross-section (width and depth profiles) of the river at the point of analysis.

            Your point of analysis needs to be in as calm a portion of the river as possible with as close to laminar flow (flat with no waves or undulations at the surface) as you can find.

            A raw estimate of the cross-sectional area of the river at the point of analysis can be made assuming a triangular cross-section, or, if the river has a well defined flat bottom, a trapezoidal cross-section. You’ll need to take measurements (or make good estimates) of the width and the maximum depth of the river at the point of analysis. Use these measurements to compute the estimated cross sectional area using the appropriate formula for the shape chosen (triangle or trapezoid).

            After computing the approximate cross-sectional area of the river, choose two points approximately equidistant upstream and downstream of the point of analysis (preferably some even number like 20 feet).

            After marking your upstream and down stream points on the bank of the river, drop a very light object, such as a dead leaf in the river a short distance upstream of the upstream point and as far from the bank as possible (ideally in the middle of the river). Start you timing when the object passes the upstream point, and measure the time (in seconds) it takes the object to travel to the downstream point.

            Multiply the approximate cross-sectional area of the river at the point of analysis by the distance between the two point on either side of the point of analysis and divide that number by the travel time in seconds.

            This will provide a rough estimate of the river’s flow in CFS. There are obviously many factors not taken into account in this simplified exercise, and the estimate is by no means suitable for use in any design, but you’ll have some idea of whether the flow is 100 cfs or 1000 cfs.

            Again, this is a very rough approximation but setting it up and computing it it can be a fun exercise when you’re enjoying yourself at the river – just remember to have a stopwatch and a long tape measure with you. And it helps to have a canoe and a friend to assist you.

            Sorry for the long post.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            interesting. So the USGS sometimes has a cable and a car… and they go to different spots
            on the cable and drop a rope thingy to get actual depth… right?

            so if you needed accurate data of flow and no USGS… is there a physical approach or is it
            like you say above… a bit of seat of the pants?

            If you look at a USGS graph of the realtime… a red marker will be place which indicates I think that they actually went out and did a physical measurement to “recalibrate”.

            A place far downstream on the Rappahannock which is far from the nearest upstream gugage how do you think they are measuring CFS or however much flow they think is in the river so they can then do an analysis for a permit?

          8. You are pretty much correct regarding USGS procedures.

            Unless you have survey equipment and a crew experienced in obtaining stream cross-sections a rough estimate is about as good as you’ll be able to get.

            Obviously, the smaller the stream the easier it is to get cross sections. For shallow stream you might be able to obtain decent cross sections with a level and a stick.

            For accurate flow measurements, and more precise calibrations, many cross sections are needed along the entire length of the steam/river.

            Gotta run. I’ll be happy to continue discussion another time.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar

            In the east, when you talk about gallons of water of use relative to a river flow… USGS reports only CFS so gotta do that conversion if you want to know how many gallons the river is running by a given point at any given time. (It’s interesting how they determine CFS.. maybe you know that also?)

            Out west… for water use and planning purposes… they usually work off of acre feet not cfs or gallons… yes… not river flow but reservoir… A farm might have a water allocation/water rights and it’s usually described in acre-feet not CFS or gallons. Right?

          10. In the east, when you talk about gallons of water of use relative to a river flow… USGS reports only CFS

            Yes. That is part of the reason 7.48 is so firmly lodged in my memory. Water and sanitary sewer pipes and pump stations are typically designed using GPM as the unit of flow.

            On the other hand, because flows are typically much higher than in sanitary sewer applications, things like Storm Sewers, E&S measures, and SWM & BMP ponds are designed using CFS as the unit of flow.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar

            ” Storm Sewers, E&S measures, and SWM & BMP ponds are designed using CFS as the unit of flow.”

            Interesting. You do storm ponds also? Aren’t they “sized” for specific rainfall events – like 2yr ?

            a 2yr pond would be a different size that a 10yr pond?

          12. I have designed many of them, but for the last 5 years or so I have been 100% water and sewer.

            Typically, a storm water pond is designed to handle the maximum storm event required by the regulating agency, which is usually the 100-tear storm. The outlet structure for the pond must be designed to contain and discharge flows from both 2-year and 10-year storms at pre-development flow rates.
            The pond must also be capable of passing the 100-year storm without overtopping.

            There is no flow limit on the 100-year storm and an emergency spillway may be used in addition to the main outlet structure, but the maximum pond level must remain 1 foot below the top of the dam (known as 1 foot of freeboard).

            The primary outlet structure is the most complicated part of a storm water pond design.

            The whole process is quite a bit more involved than that, but there’s the basics.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar

            thanks!

          14. A farm might have a water allocation/water rights and it’s usually described in acre-feet not CFS or gallons

            Yes, but does that refer to acre-feet per day? Per month? Per year?

            I am unfamiliar with western water law, but I am not unfamiliar with units of measure.

            In order to know how much water a farm has a right to, at some point the volume per unit of time must come into the equation. This unit of time may be commonly known in the west and “acre-feet” may be the colloquial way to describe this allowable flow (like saying pounds instead of pounds per square inch when talking about tire pressure), but in order to be usable as a water allocation tool the volume (acre-feet) needs to be coupled with a unit of time (day, week, month, year, etc.)

          15. LarrytheG Avatar

            yeah.. you got it… CFS is flow per second and acre-foot is a static measurement I think. I’m not sure. I’m more familiar with CFS because paddlers use it to determine the flow in the river and I’ve been involved with some local planning involving side-stream dams, minimum in-stream flow, and how many gallons a day a locality needs to deliver water to their customers. They can use 100 gal per day per person or 300 per household… is what I’ve read. Maybe you have other measures?

          16. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            If it helps, a septic system for a 4-bedroom house needs to handle 600 gallons per day (not sure what regulation or where, but this is what my system for my house was designed to handle)

            This probably means that they would expect a typical 4-bedroom house to consume water at a rate of 600 gallons per day.

            If not, maybe someone should ask the question about how they figure out how much water a septic system needs to handle.

            (As a side note, because I use far less than 600 GPD, they had to adjust my septic system by altering the amount of time that the recirculation pump runs, and by sending more water back to the treatment tank on each cycle. The issue was that my limited use of water was causing the treatment bed to dry out).

          17. LarrytheG Avatar

            It’s “average” household… like 2 1/2 people… and for planning purposes not for a specific
            dwelling which if connected to municipal system is metered and for septic… it’s the number of bedrooms that determines how much the drain field has to be sized for. It sounds like you do not
            have a standard in-ground drainfield but one of those constructed ones?

          18. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It’s one of those advanced treatment (aerobic) systems with a recirculating sand filter (though this uses styrofoam beads, not sand, but the idea is the same) and a drip irrigation drainfield.

          19. LarrytheG Avatar

            You have that because your lot is not suitable? not perk? too steep? etc?

          20. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Won’t perc, it’s clay soil. I will say, even with the limited amount of water I use, the grass grows the fastest in the drainfield.

          21. LarrytheG Avatar

            Did it perk to start or did you get it knowing it would not perk? I think the rules changed WRT not perking. Way Back.. if it would not perk, you could not get a building permit… I guess things have changed. I think I remember you talking about this before.

          22. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The seller of the undeveloped lot had gotten a septic certificate which shows that a septic system IS possible and the location of the drain field, but it would have to be an alternative system. I bought it and had that same engineer (who did the work on the septic certificate) design a septic system for it. EZ-Treat treatment system and Perc-Rite drip irrigation. As I recall the seller was STILL in the process of getting the septic certificate when I put an offer on the lot, so it was made a contingency that the lot have a septic certificate and that the location of the drain field would be acceptable to the buyer.

          23. LarrytheG Avatar

            We had only one place that would be allowed for regular septic (Plus a reserve spot). The certificate was for 2 bedroom only. Have tank pumped every 4-5 yrs.. required for Bay but would do it
            anyhow. So far, so good 30+ years.

          24. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I’m glad I asked the engineer if the reserve drainfield had to be cleared, it doesn’t, so I saved quite a few trees (and some money on the site work costs).

            I’ve had to replace one UV light (it has UV disinfection) and one turbine pump in the last 6 years. I haven’t had to have it pumped as often now that I don’t have an idio…er, “mentally challenged” individual living here who uses toilet paper like it’s going out of style. When that guy was here I had to get it pumped every year. Now he’s messing up his uncle’s house (and septic system). Keep it in the family.

          25. LarrytheG Avatar

            sounds like a mini sewage treatment plant….. some schools in rural areas have what is called a “package plant”… maybe that’s what your is?

          26. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The system I have can be scaled up to handle a school. “Commercial systems use the same treatment technology as the residential units and are set adjacent to tanks sized according to flow volume and mass loading strength. EZ Treat has commercial systems installed and operating in RV parks, campgrounds, truck stops, schools, apartment buildings, restaurants, hotels, retail stores, business parks, subdivisions, multiple-family housing units, breweries, wineries and much more.”

            https://eztreat.net/

  9. LarrytheG Avatar

    We should all recognize that it is US that is driving the need for the data centers. If you do a lot of things on the internet from participating in this blog, to ordering stuff from Amazon, to doing online with DMV or doing Google searches, research, reading papers, banking, credit card, etc, etc, etc.

    YOU and I are the reason why they want the data centers.

    The NIMBY is sorta like saying you want the service and ability but you want someone else to have the impacts associated with.

  10. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    Great find, Dick.

  11. In Virginia, Water/Sewer Authorities are by definition public service companies. If Caroline County formed a Water Authority and tasked it with developing the pipeline the constitutional issue would go away.

    As an example, the James River Water Authority recently took land by imminent domain in Fluvanna County and Louisa County, for a water pipeline which will benefit economic development in both counties. Constitutional challenges to the Authority’s power of imminent domain were not accepted by the court. Neither was inter-basin transfer a major issue during the permitting process for the JRWA’s James River water withdrawal, even though most of Louisa County is ultimately in the York River basin.

    I’m sure a lot of localities are following this case and if the County is denied the ability to use Imminent Domain for a public water utility project, then I expect quite a few new Water/Sewer Authorities will be formed throughout the state in the near future.

    However, I think the County has a good chance of prevailing without forming an authority as long as they can keep the court’s focus on the pipeline as a necessary public utilities project which will serve the needs of the county’s service area(s) as a whole, not just a few specific projects. If they are smart, they already had a utilities master plan in place which includes such improvements before they started the permitting process for the intake and pipeline.

  12. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I remember the Gaston and coal slurry pipeline fights well. This is indeed an important element of the data center explosion that most of us were totally unaware of. Good of you to bring it to light, Dick.

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      I suspect that the data center explosion in Virginia will go “pffft” once the Northam-inspired green power plan takes full root and prices for power soar. Unless, of course, our “Virginia Way” politicians find a way to subsidize the data center operators through much higher prices for residential electricity. Dominion has proven that Virginia’s politicians are prostitutes. The only question is whether the data center operators will pay the price for service.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        ideally, a data center would get a lot of it’s power from an on-site Solar Farm!

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          Data centers consume about 1,000 kWh per square meter, which is about ten times the power consumption of a typical American home.

          Some of the world’s largest data centers can each contain many tens of thousands of IT devices and require more than 100 megawatts (MW) of power capacity. This is enough to power around 80,000 U.S. households.

          While some of a data center’s power could be generated with on-site solar panels, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the total power needs.

          I drive by data centers all the time in Loudoun County. I can’t recall seeing any solar panels on-site. Maybe they are out of view on the roof? Or maybe it would be too small a benefit to bother.

          1. If it takes 5-10 acres to produce one megawatt of power, a 100 mW facility would require 0.78-1.56 square miles of solar “farm”. That answer the question of why not power them with solar? That is of course without factoring in having to multiply that number by four to theoretically attain the reliabilty of fossil fueled power on a 1-1 basis.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            yes. It would take some land to do it and as you point out, even then won’t do the job 100% but would it mitigate , shave some demand ?

            The data centers would still have to rely on grid power, no question but could they offset ?

          3. Isn’t the Biden plan to do away with *ALL* fossil fuel use by 2050? What would they rely on for grid power if not acres of wind / solar? I would vote for nuke, but many environmentalists say no nuke.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            Aspirational goals not unlike trying to get lead out of fuels, paint, nutrients out of rivers, VOC out of air, etc.. with the usual suspects in opposition. Won’t get there in our lifetimes but we’ll make good progress despite nay sayers.

          5. How does one tell the difference between a lie and an aspirational goal?

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            Reality. You set a date to get rid of leaded gasoline… and you miss the date but you got 80% there so you work on the rest. Ditto for other like unleaded .. getting mercury out of smokestacks, less nutrients in rivers… we set ambitious goals and fall short sometimes but we do make great progress. We do have cleaner air and water than we have had for decades… The Potomac was an open sewer… no more. Cities had smog alerts… no more… ya’ll just can’t seem to handle realities very well with the absolutism.

          7. So, when Biden says he wants to do away with ALL fossil fuels, I can’t tell if he is lying to me until I let him do whatever it is that he intends to do and then, and only then, can I judge whether he lied to me at the beginning? Doesn’t society have an interest in knowing if he is lying before it invests in his proposal?

            That sounds like a rationalization the lets you do whatever you want and explains failure ahead of time – in other words, it allows you to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

            To your other point: ya’ll just can’t seem to handle realities very well with the absolutism.
            Reality is absolute. It’s fantasy that requires conditional explanations. You’ve got it backwards.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar

            He wants to do away with all fossil fuels the same way we said we were going to do away with all leaded gasoline, mercury in smokestacks, vocs , etc… It’s not just Biden… it’s a lot of folks and it won’t change even if he goes away. You’re on the wrong side guy. Did society “know” when we outlawed leaded gas or decided to put ethanol in fuel or tighten sewage treatment standards? If you look around at our air and water… compared to years ago.. I’m not call it a failure at all.. Even conservatives brag about it even though they opposed it initially. It’s the way they are. The adults have to get the job done while the kids are running around throwing sands in the gears and blathering about “lies”. We’re better now because we DID take action and we will continue that way despite the same old folks standing in the way.

          9. So, I was tight. We can’t know what he is going to do until after the fact, and you rationalize it because you like whatever it is he wants to do (or not). And apparently, you don’t think it would happen if he was honest up front.

            Here’s a thought – maybe there would be less opposition if you guys were honest and told us what you are planning and what you are going to do to get there. In other words, fewer lies and more specifics.
            Perhaps the opposition comes from being lied to.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar

            Truthfully, did you track… say the changing rules for things like asbestos and PCBs, etc?

            When they pass legislation, they delegate to the agency which, by law, has to set up a public process and if legislators want to, they can mandate what the regulators won’t do.

            Do you not understand how regulation works or are opposed to it and want every single thing to be a law or what?

            It’s not lying. It’s ignorance of how the process actually works and a refusal to try to understand it and just throwing bombs like “lying”….

            Ya’ll need to better understand governance.

          11. Do you not understand that people who disagree with you have honest, good motives and do not deserve of the constant name-calling that the left uses against anyone who questions them? We all want clean air. Why can’t you tell anyone what you mean by clean air? Don’t you know? You are demanding a blank check to be filled in for any amount at some future time as your demands evolve. It’s giving you that that is stupid, not asking you for details. You wouldn’t buy a car or house without knowing what the final cost is going to be. You wouldn’t enroll in a school that didn’t tell you what the requirements are for graduation.

            You’ve already removed 98%+ of the emissions from the tail pipe. Why isn’t that enough? We are spending thousands of dollars on each car to meet a goal that no one can define. If the congress does not specify the end point in the enabling legislation, the congress has failed in its job. Good intentions do not guarantee good governance.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar

            what name calling? yes.. I think there can be honest disagreement.

            “clean air” in my book is what is defined in the law and regs and where we are closer to now.

            why do you ask why I “can’t”? I can and do.

            No blank checks. As I said earlier – you have law which is defined and regulation which is developed with public input…

            Do you remember how unleaded gas regs went?

            How about ethanol?

            emission standards for cars?

            safety standards?

            did you really follow how they were developed? I’m thinking you did not and only
            recently are interested and really don’t know or understand the process of how they
            are developed.

            You don’t agree. I get that. But the laws and regs do exist and they are defined and they were developed via governance …laws and regulations…

            and few of them actual met the goals 100% initially… it’s an incremental step-wise process when you bring the regs online… monitor to see how well they are working and recalibrate.

            The first roll-out of unleaded gas for instance was a disaster… do you remember?

          13. You ask “what name calling?” From the mouth of your last 3 presidential candidates: “Basket of deplorables, bitter clingers, MAGA republicans”. Those statements are identical in tone and intent to: dirty Jew, lazy negro, and other slurs designed to incite hatred. The left is now complicit in what it should hold in contempt.

            You say: “clean air” in my book is what is defined in the law and regs”.

            You’re replacing actual science, which is objectively true, with politics, which is subjective and error-prone. Why?

            The rest of your arguments are just an attempt to justify the administrative state, which itself is contrary to the democratic process. Our country survived and thrived for 100 years before the Admin state was imposed. These 2 articles offer guidance.

            The first article https://brownstone.org/articles/the-origin-and-operation-of-the-us-administrative-state/

            gives the history of the administrative state and includes this gem:

            “What Congress did not understand at the time was that they had fundamentally altered the American system of government. The Constitution nowhere provides for a permanent class of administrative overlords to whom Congress could outsource its authority. It nowhere said that there would exist a machine technically under the Executive branch that the president could not control. The Pendleton Act created a new layer of statist imposition that was no longer subject to democratic control. ”

            In the 2nd article https://brownstone.org/articles/anatomy-of-the-administrative-state/

            the discussion is longer and more detailed as to the false reasoning behind the Admin State. My favorite quote:

            “Consider an elementary example of deductive reasoning. Cats have tails. Felix is a cat. Therefore, Felix has a tail. The premise (cats have tails), plus evidence or minor premise (Felix is a cat), produces a conclusion (Felix has a tail). The conclusion presumes that the premise is correct.

            The same simplistic reasoning applies to the administrative state. The premise: officials have discretion to decide the public good. Evidence: officials mandated a vaccine. Conclusion: the vaccine mandate is for the public good. The conclusion follows from the premise.

            Note the nature of the evidence, which is not about the vaccine. It does not speak to its efficacy or safety. It is not evidence about whether the vaccine is in the public good. Instead, the evidence shows what officials decided. Officials have the discretion to decide the public good. No argument can challenge the conclusion without attacking that premise. Objecting to government policies by proffering evidence that they are not in the public good is a fool’s errand. “

          14. LarrytheG Avatar

            re: ” You’re replacing actual science, which is objectively true, with politics, which is subjective and error-prone. Why?” Wrong. It IS backed by science. Read the standards.

            re: ” The rest of your arguments are just an attempt to justify the administrative state, which itself is contrary to the democratic process. Our country survived and thrived for 100 years before the Admin state was imposed. ” Are you going to have legislators decide how many parts per million of a substance is harmful?

            re: ” What Congress did not understand at the time….”

            What’s not understood is the difference between law and regulation and the need for folks who are professionals in a field to develop the regulations to carry out the law.

            Congress can ALWAYS overrule the regs it does not agree with… and sometimes does.

            re: ” “Consider an elementary example of deductive reasoning. …” counsel thyself… please

            re: ” Note the nature of the evidence, which is not about the vaccine. It does not speak to its efficacy or safety. It is not evidence about whether the vaccine is in the public good. Instead, the evidence shows what officials decided. ”

            So NOW we DO KNOW how you really feel about “science”! So do you disbelieve the FDA and instead want folks in Congress to decide what vaccines are safe ?

            ya’ll are messed up and mixed up big time IMO..on a number of issues…

          15. If it’s based on science, they know at what point they have achieved clean air. 98%+ of the emissions from the tail pipe have been removed. What is the final number that science demands, and how was it computed? A real scientist would know – do yours know? Where can I find the end numbers?

          16. LarrytheG Avatar

            It was based on science BEFORE they set the standards and timetable. Right?

            “clean air” is defined as what by who?

            Do you not want regulators doing this job by consulting science for determining what
            the standards ought to be? I don’t need my own scientist. I trust the science as an institution.

            what numbers are you looking for? Specifically?

            does this help:

            https://www.airnow.gov/aqi/aqi-basics/

            who would you consult if not these guys?

          17. That’s the point. They don’t consult with the regulators, they just give them the authority to set standards (rules). You say congress doesn’t know what rules to set up front, but after the fact they can monitor the results. How? What standards do they use to monitor results? Where is the science that tells them that the regulators have gone too far, or not far enough? Near as I can tell, your standards are produced by the same regulators – i.e., you expect them to police themselves. If the congress can police them after the fact, why not before the fact? All congress is policing now is whether the agency met its self set goals, not whether those goals were reasonable or correct. This is why Nancy Pelosi correctly said that she had to pass Obama care before she could tell us what was in it. That same reasoning applies to stool samples. No wonder the results are often the same.

            What numbers do I want? I want a set of numbers that say, when we have air that contains x amount of a or less, y amount of b or less, etc, then we have reached clean air and no further regulation or legislation is required. Real science can give us those numbers. What we do have are numbers that are generated by advocacy groups, special interests and political cronies – not scientists working on pure science. Look at reality – agency heads move to the industries they regulated last week. Contracts are awarded based on political connections. Standards contain carve outs, exemptions, etc to benefit certain industries. Is that what you want? It’s what you are defending.

            Democracy works on the idea that the average citizen is smart enough to make informed decisions. If, as you say, this is all too complicated for us or our elected representatives to comprehend and deal with and must be left in the hands of a technocratic oligarchy, you are also saying that democracy is dead.

          18. LarrytheG Avatar

            re: ” That’s the point. They don’t consult with the regulators, they just give them the authority to set standards (rules)”

            who is “they”?

            re: ” You say congress doesn’t know what rules to set up front…. ”

            who should Congress consult to monitor?

            re: ” This is why Nancy Pelosi correctly said that she had to pass Obama care before she could tell us what was in it. That same reasoning applies to stool samples. No wonder the results are often the same.” She did but what she was talking about was the law not the regulation. Legislation can
            be complicated. Congress has staff that they pay to track the legislation…

            re: ” What numbers do I want? I want a set of numbers that say, when we have air that contains x amount of a or less, y amount of b or less, etc, then we have reached clean air and no further regulation or legislation is required. Real science can give us those numbers.”

            It doesn’t work that way. The numbers they reach in a certain time may not be the numbers they deem that we need to get to. It’s not a question of “clean” .. it’s a question of how dirty is acceptable and that can change especially if further science determines that the pollutant is more injurious than originally thought. Science is not the truth on high that never changes. It is an evolving body of knowledge as we learn more. Some substances we think there is a number that is safe. Further science can show it is not and needs to be tighter. Some of that happened with the clean air act… particularly for particulate matter.

            You’re looking for final answers.. and the world does not work that way.

            You may design a tire to a certain standard. How many blowouts are acceptable? You would never get “none” or if you did tires would be unaffordable. Ditto with air quality. It’s a balance between how many people get sick or die from bad air versus how much it costs to reach a certain level. Ditto with mercury or hundreds of other substances…

            re: ” Democracy works on the idea that the average citizen is smart enough to make informed decisions. If, as you say, this is all too complicated for us or our elected representatives to comprehend and deal with and must be left in the hands of a technocratic oligarchy, you are also saying that democracy is dead.”

            How many citizens truly understand air quality ? Do you understand all that your Doctor does? Do you not trust your Doctor? It’s the same with science in general. It’s not a question of “smart” , it’s a question of knowledge that you have or not before you can make that informed decision.

            We live in one of the most advanced countries on the earth because of science. We use science to it’s maximum advantage whether we’re dong air quality or sewage treatment, or highways or cancer research… everything in most of our lives.. and yet we have people who now attack science and doubt it. Virtually everything you do in your life depends on science from the light switch on your wall to your cell phone to you name it…. It’s silly to say that science threatens Democracy IMO… geeze… we have much bigger direct threats from the MAGA folks IMO. They’ve made it clear they’d burn it all down..

          19. Answering your questions in order.

            1- they is the congress.

            2- that’s my question. You said congress doesn’t know what standards to set up front, they leave it to the regulatory agency, and then they monitor the agency. My question is: whose standards do they use to monitor it? The only standards are those produced by the agency, so it appears you are asking for the agency to set the standards by which it will be monitored. If you are not advocating self monitoring, where would congress get the standards to monitor them after the fact, and why can’t it get those standards before writing the law to set the requirements the agency is now going to enforce? If, down the road, science thinks it needs to change, we repeat the process.

            3- you say Nancy was talking about the law, not the regulation, but that makes no sense. Did she pass the law before she wrote it? If she wrote the law first, why doesn’t she know what was in it?

            4- I know it doesn’t work that way, that’s what I am complaining about. We currently have a group of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats dictating to us how to live our lives. Regulatory agencies have their own agendas too, and they don’t always coincide with the public interest. Letting them control all aspects of the process is foolish.

            5- I never said that science threatened democracy. I did say that your claim that some issues are too complex for the average voter and should be decided by an unelected bureaucracy is a threat to and a repudiation of democracy. I don’t have to be a doctor to make decisions about my care. I don’t have to be an expert to question authority.
            None of the rioters I see on the news looting stores, etc. is wearing a MAGA hat. Better take your meds.

            The administrative state is a cancer on democracy. You can defend it all day, but it’s still a cancer.

          20. LarrytheG Avatar

            1- they is the congress.

            Congress DOES monitor and DOES consult… laws and regs get updated and changed as we
            find out what is working and what is not.

            2- that’s my question. You said congress doesn’t know what standards to set up front, they leave it to the regulatory agency, and then they monitor the agency. My question is: whose standards do they use to monitor it?

            THey consult with the regulatory agency AND independent scientists who participate in determining the regulations and standards.

            “The only standards are those produced by the agency, so it appears you are asking for the agency to set the standards by which it will be monitored. If you are not advocating self monitoring, where would congress get the standards to monitor them after the fact, and why can’t it get those standards before writing the law to set the requirements the agency is now going to enforce? If, down the road, science thinks it needs to change, we repeat the process.”

            Before a regulation is enacted, it has to go through a public process where all parties can and do participate from industry to non-affiliated scientist to consumers, voters, etc.

            3- you say Nancy was talking about the law, not the regulation, but that makes no sense. Did she pass the law before she wrote it? If she wrote the law first, why doesn’t she know what was in it?

            They passed the law quickly as is done and too quick for everyone to know precisely every detail of it. They do that in virtually every legislature including the states…. not a good thing, I agree.

            4- I know it doesn’t work that way, that’s what I am complaining about. We currently have a group of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats dictating to us how to live our lives. Regulatory agencies have their own agendas too, and they don’t always coincide with the public interest. Letting them control all aspects of the process is foolish.

            Regulators by definition are not elected. Would you want them to be elected? Again, are you aware of the public process for setting standards? Many players including Congress AND lawsuits that get into the courts. DO you really understand how regulation does work?

            5- I never said that science threatened democracy. I did say that your claim that some issues are too complex for the average voter and should be decided by an unelected bureaucracy is a threat to and a repudiation of democracy. I don’t have to be a doctor to make decisions about my care. I don’t have to be an expert to question authority.
            None of the rioters I see on the news looting stores, etc. is wearing a MAGA hat. Better take your meds.

            well you said this: ” Democracy works on the idea that the average citizen is smart enough to make informed decisions. If, as you say, this is all too complicated for us or our elected representatives to comprehend and deal with and must be left in the hands of a technocratic oligarchy, you are also saying that democracy is dead.”

            BTW.. looters, and other law breakers are not regulators… and MAGA has clearly shown what
            they’d do for actual governance .. they’re burn it down…

            The administrative state is a cancer on democracy. You can defend it all day, but it’s still a cancer.

            The “administrative state” is another MAGA term IMO. It’s part of the “tear it all down” narrative.

          21. LarrytheG Avatar

            re: ” The administrative state is a cancer on democracy. You can defend it all day, but it’s still a cancer.”

            There is regulation for everything from highways to airports to Medicare to taxes, to criminal justice, to weapons.. all of it is a “cancer”? what kind of talk is what? MAGA talk, right?

            What would you do with regulation different from now?

            You do have an elected Congress who can change the way that laws are implemented and regulation.

            Your problem is that you’re in the minority on this. Most Congressmen including both Dems and GOP are apparently okay with the way it works.

            Not to say it can’t be reformed / changed with enough support and votes but that’s the way the Founding Fathers set the country up.

            Regulation is something that Congress created and needed.

            Every time you drive a car on a public highway, you’re affected by dozens, hundreds of regulations of the care and the highways.

            How would you change that?

          22. LarrytheG Avatar

            goals are not lies if you make progress and continue to make progress. Lies are things that opponents with absolute views invent.

            It’s like saying the govt “lies” when it says it will do something and it doesn’t do it 100% even if it did a lot of it.

            it’s a problem with folks who can think only one way about things…not just govt.

          23. Not without covering the rest of the Commonwealth with solar panels.

          24. LarrytheG Avatar

            ever google how much land it might take to generate enough solar for Virginia? Wasn’t it something like 25 miles x 25 miles or something like that? Not small but we do have one in Spotsy that’s
            about 1 x 1 that generates enough power for one county. The Spotsy solar was built on land
            that had been clearcut and was unused except for folks in ATVS and such.

            A lot of enviros are NOT opposed to Nukes… they know that unless we get a breakthrough on
            hydrogen or similar, we’ll have to have nukes but I bet bottom dollar NOVA won’t want their
            share of them either, right?

          25. “I drive by data centers all the time in Loudoun County. I can’t recall seeing any solar panels on-site.”

            Then they’re not very good at playing the game. At the data center we used in Richmond area, they had a few very visible solar panels which powered the security check in station for visitors. That building is about 500 square foot.

            Land is far too valuable in Loudoun County for solar panels. My guess is that as Dominion and others bring up renewable capacity, data centers in your area will try to buy THAT specific power so they can claim to be 100% renewable.

            https://sustainability.equinix.com/environment/renewable-energy-scaling-our-impact/

          26. LarrytheG Avatar

            They will buy solar at another location. There’s a 5000 acre solar farm in Spotsy and a lot of it is bought by Microsoft and others.

        2. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          Looked outside the last few days? The weakness of that idea has been well demonstrated by these many dark days….

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yep. but there are other days when it would be great. The whole deal is not to try to
            REPLACE other fuels but to offset/supplant when it makes economic sense.

      2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        sis-boom-bah? Yes unlike Pa we want to *prevent* freedom of choice on power, so the cloud will to migrate to WV or something…but somebody here said we will not need cloud with AI or something like that

      3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        sis-boom-bah? Yes unlike Pa we want to *prevent* freedom of choice on power, so the cloud will to migrate to WV or something…but somebody here said we will not need cloud with AI or something like that

  13. RE: (To be fair, the county seems to have avoided, to the extent possible, letting anyone know of its plans.)

    I think that claim is unjustified. A small amount of research at the their website revealed that Caroline County has not been secretive about this project:

    https://co.caroline.va.us/DocumentCenter/View/3705/Caroline-County-Rappahannock-River-Water-Supply-Project-9-13-19

    And it is obvious they have been planning this for several years. It was not difficult to find the County’s Water Master Plan on their website. The Rappahannock water withdrawal and pipeline have been in the master plan since at least 2016 (see page 57 of the plan):

    https://co.caroline.va.us/DocumentCenter/View/4424/Caroline-County-Water-Master-Plan?bidId=

  14. No wonder the water level on Lake Gaston has been a foot lower in recent months.

  15. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    This gets into why sea level is rising so bad in Virginia: ground water extraction sinking us. Every effort to conserve is needed.

    My favorite natural gas power plant was NJ Turnpike Exit 9 CoGen super energy efficient with air cooling. In those days if a power plant was to be built in North Jersey, it better be squeaky clean. South Jersey was the place for coal plants (over my dead body howcver).

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