Who Needs Dad When You’ve Got Uncle Sam?

poor_children
Raising children, a two-parent job

by James A. Bacon

Consider the following progression in logic:

– One in three Virginia children live in poverty or near poverty, and half of these children live in married families.

– Marriage alone does not protect children from poverty; indeed, there is little evidence that marriage, as opposed to influences associated with marriage such as the level of education, keeps children out of poverty.

– Rather than promote marriage, public policy should focus on building the “child support system” — cranking up enforcement of child support payments, allowing families that collect child support to continue receiving public support, ramping up Head Start and spending more on universal pre-K.

That’s the thrust of a paper, “New Insights into Childhood Poverty,” just published by the Demographics Research Group of the Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service. The paper represents a major departure for the University of Virginia-based research center, which is best known for its anodyne analysis of demographic trends in the commonwealth. The idea that the best remedy for poverty is more government spending is likely to be a controversial one in Virginia. Actually, that’s an under-statement. While I believe the Demographics Research Group does a lot of useful work — I profile much of it on this blog — I think the group jumped the shark with this publication.

There is so much to object to that I barely know where to begin.

A liberal view of children, marriage and poverty

I will start the discussion by summarizing, as dispassionately as I can, the argument advanced by authors Anna K. Rorem and Megan E. Juelfs-Swanson. The paper can be seen as part of the growing liberal-left intellectual counter-attack on the Welfare Reform Act of 1996, at the heart of which was the belief that marriage played an important role in countering poverty. As the report quotes the Act:

Marriage is the foundation of a successful society… The increase in the number of children receiving public assistance is closely related to the increase in births to unmarried women … it is the sense of Congress that prevention of out-of-wedlock pregnancy and reduction in out-of-wedlock birth are very important Government interests.

The Act encourages the formation and maintenance of two-parent families by means of “marriage promotion programming.” The Commonwealth of Virginia reinforces the Act’s requirements by means of divorce education courses to encourage married couples to stay married.

The authors argue that marriage is no guarantee that children will stay out of poverty. True, as conservatives frequently observe, children living in households headed by unmarried mothers, or even by unmarried mothers living with a boyfriend, are statistically more likely than the children of married parents to live in poverty (less than $22,000 a year for a family of four, according to the federal poverty measure).

children_poverty_status
But the picture changes if you expand the definition to “near poor,” that is, making less $29,000. Many near-poor households, which encompasses a much larger group of married couples, have recently climbed out of poverty and half of them will recycle back within five years. Roughly half the children of families experiencing “economic insecurity” live in married families. “In other words, while marital status is relevant to rates of childhood poverty, marriage alone does not protect children from poverty.” A commonly held belief holds that two adults in a household create a better environment for children, write Rorem and Juelfs-Swanson: Two parents can mobilize greater financial resources, they can provide more consistent adult supervision and they can more easily juggle the logistics of raising a family, running a households and holding down a job. While the authors don’t attempt to refute such logic, they suggest that other factors do a better job of explaining the relative success of married households in child rearing. Stable marriages are the result of higher income and education, not the cause of it.

Preexisting economic stability improves the likelihood of marriage. People may initiate and sustain a marriage, and children may do better in married-parent families ‘because adults who form and maintain such families are the most stable, well-adjusted, resource-rich individuals.’ Studies also reveal that some low-income couples intentionally delay marriage until they have reached some degree of economic stability. Individuals making this decision may see marriage not as a means toward financial well-being but rather a symbol of it.

Having dispensed with the idea that marriage is related in any meaningful way to staying out of poverty, Rorem and Juelfs-Swanson then suggest that the existing array of government-funded anti-poverty programs needs to be expanded. “Revamping the current child support system would not only improve present-day poverty by raising income in single-parent homes, but would also discourage ‘out-of-wedlock childbearing’ by distributing the cost of raising children across both parents. … Improved early childcare options — including widespread childcare subsidies for low-income families, more funding for Head Start, and a commitment to universal pre-kindergarten — are advocated for their potential to broaden opportunities for all families in poverty.”

A conservative view

There may be some conservatives who hew to the idea that marriage can be sprinkled like fairy dust on the poor and their lives will be magically transformed but I’ve never met them, and I’m certainly not one of them. Poverty is a hard state of affairs regardless of marital status.

Furthermore, if people are raised in a dysfunctional environment in which they are never acculturated to basic norms of civilized behavior, they are not likely to make good marriage partners. In other words, encouraging marriage between individuals who are too immature to maintain respectful, stable relationships is probably a dead-end policy. Some people are unlikely to make good parents whether they are married are not. I object to the idea, however, that a condition of material poverty is detrimental with the institution of marriage. All we have to do is look at the prevalence of marriage over the past century. We can see from this graph published in “Historical Marriage Trends from 1890-2010“:

never_married

The percentage of “never married” Americans has surged since 1980s for both whites and blacks. For whites, the percentage of unmarried men and women remains within the range of historical norms. Blacks, who once were more likely to be married than whites, have broken into social and demographic terra incognita. During the Jim Crow era of endemic discrimination, when the overwhelming majority of blacks were poor, the institution of marriage somehow thrived — most likely because, before the welfare state, two sources of income were better than one. In other words, marriage was an institution that effectively provided poor families a measure of protection against the hazards of insecure employment and low wages.

The million dollar question: If stable marriages come from “stable, resource-rich individuals,” how come marriage was so much more prevalent and stable among the laboring classes a century ago when material poverty and insecurity was so much more prevalent than it is today?

There have been two sea changes over the past century. First was the sexual revolution and the collapse of social norms against divorce and unwed pregnancy. Social norms held marriages together a century ago even when the couples were unhappy. The second was the rise of the welfare state, which undermined marriage as an economic institution. Over the past 40 years, the panoply of welfare benefits has rendered the financial contribution of men in lower-income households increasingly superfluous. You can see how extensive those benefits from the chart, thoughtfully published in the Weldon Cooper report, below:

welfare_participation

The theory that marriage is the province of “resource-rich” individuals is a liberal fantasy concocted to explain away the devastating impact of the welfare state upon the family structure of the very people they purported to help. According to liberal theory, the marriage among lower-income Americans should have increased as the welfare state ameliorating economic insecurity. In the case of African-Americans, that theory is devastatingly disproven by the facts.

Rorem and Juelfs-Swanson don’t appear to see the marginalization of lower-income men as any great loss in regards to the raising of children. However, the contribution of fathers goes way beyond providing children with “adult supervision” and juggling household chores. Fathers make a critical contribution instilling and reinforcing the values it takes to function in life — self control, self discipline, work ethic, respect for the rights and desires of others, a willingness to defer gratification. That’s not to say that children can’t learn those values from their mother alone, but the mother’s job is much harder. Two-parent parenting is hard; single-parent parenting is doubly hard.

This gets us to the confusion over the source of “privilege” in our society, which liberals confuse with material abundance and conservatives rightly understand as a proper upbringing. Liberals believe in the magical power of money to infuse children with the values and character it takes to graduate from high school, earn a college degree, progress along a career path, enter into a stable marriage and raise healthy, balanced children. If you are raised in affluence, you are destined to success; if you are raised in poverty, your chances of upward mobility are severely stunted. By contrast, conservatives believe that the real source of “privilege” in society is parents who inculcate strong values, something that no amount of money can buy. Anyone with strong values and character can rise above their station; anyone lacking those traits can slide into the abyss.

Teaching those values is a two-person job. Absentee fathers may send child-support checks but if they do not participate in raising their children, the children face much longer odds in life. The act of getting married is not a panacea; as a rule, substance abusers and serial adulterers don’t make good husbands and fathers. But the institution of marriage seen as part of a broader life strategy — getting an education first, getting a job, then getting married, and then having children — is a far more effective life path than having children, dropping out of school, and then cohabitating with someone far more likely than a biological parent to abuse the children.

We’ve traveled down dysfunctional-family path for 60 years now and we’ve seen what happens. Government programs may temporarily ameliorate material poverty but they beget spiritual poverty. We need less government, more personal responsibility.


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Comments

36 responses to “Who Needs Dad When You’ve Got Uncle Sam?”

  1. chris bonney Avatar
    chris bonney

    Gosh, you rolled out all the conservative myths in one fell swoop. I can’t speak for every nation. But the history of the United States is marked by constant give and take between those who accepted that culture was constantly changing in step with advances in science, technology and thought and those who vilified change and fought its every pull. The Pill changed everything. The protests of the 60s, whether for war or racial integration, changed everything. The rejection of church and “traditional family values” (which were always changing, for example, if you study the role of children in domestic life) changed everything. There has never been a moment when all was right and fixed. Why is it that when conservatives start attacking the cost of human services–such services that reflect the nation’s cultural history and, for those who observe such things, the basic elements of Christian empathy and social responsibility–they overlook the cost of welfare that goes to the more affluent–i.e. the home mortgage deduction, investment credits, etc.–and the countless billions that go to the really rich and the corporate? The poor “make bad decisions” while the corporate executive is applauded for taking advantage of every bit of dole a locality, state or the federal government can be coerced into giving.

    1. Chris, I’m sorry I didn’t have space to express my view on every conceivable topic related to U.S. wealth inequality in this single post… I guess I just got lazy! But if you read my other posts, I have been totally consistent in opposing tax exemptions and subsidies for the middle class and the rich alike. I have been totally consistent in decrying the adverse consequences of those exemptions, subsidies and privileges.

      If you read my post carefully, you’ll also see that I don’t paint marriage as a panacea. I just say that it’s a lot better than non-marriage as an institution for raising children. I also acknowledged the role of the sexual revolution in eroding traditional views toward marriage. I am even open to the idea of the concept of marriage to evolve, say, to include gay marriages. The key is to create stable domestic institutions, especially for raising children, headed by two parents.

      As for other nations, I agree, their example can be instructive. Thus, we see that in the United Kingdom the welfare state has had a similar impact on breaking down the family structure among the predominantly white poor, with similar consequences for the spread of irresponsible personal behavior and social disorder. Read Theodore Dalrymple’s “Life at the Bottom” for a vivid view of what welfarism has wrought.

  2. Breckinridge Avatar
    Breckinridge

    I can still hear my Econ 101 professor (an assistant, really, as that faculty would never allow a Chicago grad a full professorship) repeating over and over: whatever the government subsidizes, you get more of it. The single mom with three kids by three different fathers, living off of government programs, is a prime example. But so is the wealthy upper middle class homeowner with his tax advantaged home mortgage deduction, the deduction for his second home, the deduction for his 529 plan for junior and his tax-deferred 401(k). Both are behaving rationally in response to the incentives offered. (And everybody scratches their heads about the growing gap between them….duh.)

    The problem is we take care of rich and poor but they families in the middle don’t do so well. Not much government boodle for them.

    1. larryg Avatar

      At least Breckinridge recognizes the issue while Jim relentlessly attacks the subsidies for the lower end and at best gives lip service to the “other” subsidies which if you look at the tax code – are far, far more than one concerned about such things should ignore and instead focus on the “one-parent’ subsidies.

      it’s just right wing blather .. pure and simple.

      if it were actually fair and balanced, we’d hear just as much pitchfork and torch talk about the just obscene mortgage deduction subsidy, then the 401K subsidy and health care subsidy.

      the right and their surrogates have turned this into a war on those perceived to be “undeserving” of subsidies because they don’t live “right” ..

      If it’s not dog-whistle racism, it certainly is classicism.

      As I’ve said over and over – I’m looking for solutions not these just silly adolescent kabuki theater sound bite dramas.

      And as I said – we know what the right does not like – in spades – but trying to find out what their way forward is – is impossible.

      they have formed a – ” we will gridlock” party.

      I have no blind allegiance to “helping the poor”. For instance, I have pointed out how loony and condescending it is to think we can “teach” urban city folks to “grow their own food” as if Food Banks did not exist nor could they get their hands on produce and other “good food”.

      I think anyone who gets entitlements should give back to the community.
      If you get food stamps then you should be volunteering at the food bank.
      If your child is getting Pre-K help then you should be volunteering as a classroom assistant if you do not have a regular job.

      I support young unemployed – to be required to go into the service – armed forces, or Ameri-Corp or whatever.. learn to work.. learn to deal with customers and problems… it will make a better person of you.

      but compare the above sentiments to the right wing hate agenda.

      they’re not about solutions.. they’re about punishment …the old time religion.. of castigating the “sinners”.

      the right has become worthless with respect to making us a better country..

      they are selfish and basically full of hate – towards so many things.. it’s just dang difficult to keep track.

      and yes.. they hang out with overt racists… and people who would force a woman to have a vaginal probe or deny same-sex couple the same tax benefits of other couples.

      it’s bad. it’s a failure of a political philosophy.

  3. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    So is the conservative view that if we get rid of Medicaid food stamps and housing assistance, that men and women will be more likely to get and stay married, and then we won’t need those programs – because everyone will be married and there will be no poverty. I would say that was the conservative fantasy. Of course you don’t really think that just as of course the authors of this study don’t think that families aren’t important for raising children. It’s easy to attribute simplistic thinking to others and not recognize it in oneself.

    1. No, I don’t think marriage as a panacea — and I made that very clear in my post. And I don’t advocating the dismantling the welfare state, for all the ill that it has done.

      The welfare state has obliterated the institutions (mutual aid societies) and social practices (communal self help) that helped poor people survive poverty. We can’t go back — poor people would have nothing to fall back upon. It would be a disaster.

      Job creation would be the best solution for poverty. Of course, we hear that there are some jobs that Americans just won’t do…

    2. Breckinridge Avatar
      Breckinridge

      It is the conservative view that for more than 30 years, the world before TANF changed the rules, young women who had children out of wedlock received more money per child, and automatically qualified for a whole host of programs (including an apartment of her own) that married couples with children could not qualify for — an obvious, powerful disincentive to marriage and remaining childless. The impact of that system on the marriage statistics and poverty was almost instantaneous and obvious to everybody with a brain, and finally Daniel Patrick Moynihan told the world the truth it didn’t want to hear.

      Under Clinton (and in Virginia George Allen) many of those adverse incentives went away and there has been some improvement. But the culture is embedded, and now you’ve had generations of children without two parents, without a working adult role model in the home, without parents who demonstrate the value of education. You can indeed fight poverty by giving poor people money and services, and services that are tied to a job (training, day care, public transportation) should continue to have support. But in general the 50 year war on poverty has been won by poverty, no contest.

      1. larryg Avatar

        re: TANF –

        How do you reconcile our approach to this issue with the other OECD countries?

        are we doing something different from those countries?

        when you receive a subsidy for tax-free health insurance or can write off your mortgage interest or your real estate and property taxes – how is that “better” than someone who rents an apartment, works 40 hours a week for minimum wage and no health care – why do you deserve your subsidies and those folks don’t?

      2. larryg Avatar

        re: ” It is the conservative view that for more than 30 years, the world before TANF changed the rules, young women who had children out of wedlock received more money per child, and automatically qualified for a whole host of programs (including an apartment of her own) that married couples with children could not qualify for — an obvious, powerful disincentive to marriage and remaining childless. The impact of that system on the marriage statistics and poverty was almost instantaneous and obvious to everybody with a brain, and finally Daniel Patrick Moynihan told the world the truth it didn’t want to hear.”

        Please tell me about this world :

        1. under Ronald Reagan – who supported many of those programs even as he vilified a mythical “welfare queen”.

        2. and under OECD countries…

        why – out of all the other most powerful economies on the planet – we don’t have this argument in those other countries?

        why is that?

        is this country screwed up ?

        are we totally different from the OECD countries?

        I try hard to get some kind of context out of the rights’ “message” but it’s

        1.: filled with myth about “leftist” nations – which just happen to include all of the most powerful economies on the planet.

        2. – the right has no realistic, pragmatic alternatives. Their alternatives are based on “beliefs” .. “concepts” and in general things that in their minds go back to when this country was in it’s infancy.

        it’s like they can’t handle the current world.. it’s bad for them.. and it don’t matter the rest of the advanced economies in the world are “leftists
        .. it’s just untenable and we must go back.

        Reagan was the last pragmatic Republican. Even as you strongly advocated his core beliefs – he was willing to make the compromise necessary to move forward.

        no one gets everything they want. no one. when will the GOP figure that out?

  4. Several posts are missing, including some by Larry, and one each from DJR and from me.

    1. I have no explanation. I didn’t delete them, and no one else has the administrative rights to remove them either.

  5. larryg Avatar

    be that as it may (or may not),

    Conservatives have to paramount issues these days;

    1. can they – as a party come up with solutions – that as a party they agree with?

    2. will those positions – represent a majority of Americans views?

    on number 1. – the right – right now – cannot even seem to develop a consensus party position on the major issues of the day…

    and

    on number 2 – over and over and over – they find themselves not represting the majority of Americans and have to resort to basically attacks on what they don’t like as a diversion from being honest with the American people about their positions.

    if , as a party, you have people who hold views that are serious minority views with respect to the rest of the country -and you find yourself unable to get to positions – supported by 60% of Americans – what is your future as a party?

    sure.. you’re likely to keep the house and win the Senate this time – but what about after that?

    My view is that no matter one’s political philosophy – left or right -if they are not looking forward – and instead are trying to stave off change and keep the status quo – you’re doomed..

    and I’m sorry, I have a hell of a time believing someone who tells me they’re a moderate conservative but they stand on the same stage with outright racists.. when promoting the party and it’s platforms.

  6. larryg Avatar

    I could have respect for a party that has principled alternatives and especially one in which they are willing to compromise to get more of what they want.

    but I cannot have respect for folks who are opposed to what we have right now and insist that the only alternative is “my way or the highway”.. “we will gridlock government if we do not get our way”.

    Conservatives have no honest, real world solutions anymore.

    they’re looking for ideological concepts.. not pragmatic solutions.

    there are no countries on the planet that embody the concepts they now embrace – other than 3rd world.

    In their addle minded views – “liberal” in the US are leftists and for that matter so are all the citizens and governments in all the other OECD governments – on the fricken planet.

    they have no country, no government that is more like what they want.

    they won’t even name them.. none.. because they know just how radical they have become.

    So what they advocate is a concept – of which there is no real world examples.

    not on one issue – on issue after issue after issue..

    they’re not only the party of “no” – they’ve become the party of “hell no”.

    but the really bizarre thing is that the folks who are RINOs at heart – still want to herd up with the hard liners – in large part because they absolutely abhor the idea of aligning – not with liberals.. but moderates – because moderates in the GOP these days are not long for this world.

    Moderates like Bob Bennett, Olympia Snow, Richard Lugar, and others have been consigned to the gates of political hell by the GOP – who claims as DJ does that people to their left are “leftists”.. and that would include folks like Bush and Ronald Reagan .. etc..

    it’s loony tune time for Conservatives.. and it’s apparently a long-running flick.

  7. Breckinridge Avatar
    Breckinridge

    The original article was posted twice, Larry responded to the first installment, and for some reason that got deleted and the second installment remained behind. All part of the vast right wing conspiracy well known to the Clintons…

    Conservatives are a philosophical bunch, not always terrible worried about either governing or winning elections. Winning elections doesn’t always lend itself to philosophical purity. Political parties are about winning elections. The GOP continues to hold its own on that front. But that’s off the point…

    Looking for the outright racists on the stage, Larry — name some names. That LA Clippers idiot looks like a Democrat to me. Maybe the moron out in Nevada with the cattle (people sure scattered when he opened his mouth) but beyond them I’m coming up dry. I don’t accept that disagreeing with Obama makes one a racist, especially since HillaryCare got the same treatment two decades earlier….And I don’t agree that these arguments over welfare policy are racist, as the majority of welfare recipients are members of the majority race. Playing the race card is cheap and easy, Larry.

    1. larryg Avatar

      RE: ” Conservatives are a philosophical bunch, not always terrible worried about either governing or winning elections. Winning elections doesn’t always lend itself to philosophical purity. Political parties are about winning elections. The GOP continues to hold its own on that front. But that’s off the point…”

      they sure as hell did not react well to Obama winning or the prospect of Clinton winning so I doubt they are “unconcerned”.

      “Looking for the outright racists on the stage, Larry — name some names. ”

      how about Ted Nugent? and if you want more – I can give them but don’t say you were not warned… there are racists in the GOP.. side by side with others and they all vote the same way. Sub Human Mongrel… is just a sample.

      “That LA Clippers idiot looks like a Democrat to me. Maybe the moron out in Nevada with the cattle (people sure scattered when he opened his mouth) but beyond them I’m coming up dry. ”

      are you saying saying that Democrat racists vote with the GOP? how would a Dem racist vote Dem?

      “I don’t accept that disagreeing with Obama makes one a racist, especially since HillaryCare got the same treatment two decades earlier…”

      politics is not necessarily racism but we know racism and we do not have to pretend that it’s politics. that’s dishonest and disingenuous especially coming from a country that has had decades of over racist politics – real history of it.

      “And I don’t agree that these arguments over welfare policy are racist, as the majority of welfare recipients are members of the majority race. Playing the race card is cheap and easy, Larry.”

      I don’t think MOST of the comments over welfare policy is racists but some of it is – no question about it.

      but what I ask – is what is the better alternative if you don’t like it?

      why do we have opponents who want to not develop alternatives – just kill it ?

      Reagan liked the earned income credit because people only got it if they worked.

      now days – Conservatives would oppose that also..

      but they have no solutions other than to create slums and people living in squalor like they do in 3rd world countries.

      and – they are totally dishonest about it.. they refuse to be clear about what their alternatives actually are. Their primary modus operandi is to oppose – to gridlock.. even on things like the debt limit – they oppose increasing the debt but then they refuse to put forth a budget that reduces the deficit and debt – other than to kill entitlements .. as if that is viable at all..

      they have no solutions. they don’t like what we have now. but like with health care and immigration .. they cannot even agree among themselves on alternatives so they basically refuse to deal with the realities.

      there are no countries on the planet that operate according to the way that Republicans say they want the country to operate – save for 3rd world countries.

      that’s dumb. it’s not a solution. you may hate the idea that we have folks who get entitlements but its totally dysfunctional to not admit that many others also get entitlements.. but we treat them different.

      what gives you the right – to write off the interest on your Mortgage or not pay taxes on employer provided health care?

      If you want to cut entitlements – do it across the board – everyone takes a haircut. that’s honest .. and forthright.. and most important – it’s not hypocrisy.

      do you know – for instance, what is a bigger subsidy – tax-free employer-provided insurance or MedicAid for the poor?

      do you know? do you care? do you want to cut aid for the poor and keep your own entitlements?

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

        Joe Biden.

      2. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        Barack Obama – whom he described as a “light skinned” African-American “with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one”

        Harry Reid

      3. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        “We got to do something about these Asians coming in and opening up businesses and dirty shops. They ought to go. I’m going to say that right now. But we need African-American businesspeople to be able to take their places, too.”

        Marion Barry

        1. larryg Avatar

          would you like me to quote some Conservatives DJ?

          what exactly are you solving with this?

          both sides made dumb statements.. want me to give you some?

          what is the point of this?

          1. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            You ramble incessantly about disliking people who “stand on stage” with racists. Yet those ramblings are always part of some anti-conservative rant. Meanwhile, there are plenty of examples of liberal / Democratic racist comments.

            “and I’m sorry, I have a hell of a time believing someone who tells me they’re a moderate conservative but they stand on the same stage with outright racists.. when promoting the party and it’s platforms.”

            Do you have the same problem with supposedly moderate liberals who stand on stage with outright racists? When Bill Clinton said to Ted Kennedy (about Obama) ” … a few years ago he’d have been getting us coffee” did that qualify as outright racist? When Hillary Clinto stands on stage with Bill do you have a hell of a time believing that she is a moderate liberal?

            The real question, Larryg is – What is your point?

          2. larryg Avatar

            Actually I point out that those who say they are Conservative seem to have no qualms standing on the same stage as a racist where as those with principles would make a point about their distaste about racism.

            I do not think liberals stand on the stage with racists. Given how things evolved from the 1960’s on Civil Rights – it’s pretty clear who the racists are and what party they gravitate towards and the party that refuses to disavow them.

            you’re living in a dream world DJ if you think the left condones racism.

            my point? that racism should be not about left or right at all.. it’s should be rejected by ANYONE who has principles about people without even having to talk about which political party.

            it’s just downright scurrilous to try to equate racism with politics.. just the worst of the worst … in m view.

            anyone who lived through the 1960’s knows what racism is and is not and anyone who lived through the 60’s and now plays game with racism – has issues – as they a say.

            Some of the opposition against the current POTUS is out and out – overt racism – and I expect anyone of good character and conscience to not abide by it.. never.

            do you have my point now?

            IF you cannot or will not stand up against racism – what else will you not stand up for?

            the folks who are “concerned” about entitlements and Obama – who make very strong anti-racism statements have credibility. Those who do not – leave an impression about their scruples and in my view, it’s not a good one.

            If you want to make a valid point about entitlements or Obama – make it clear that it’s not about race – convincingly.

      4. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        “I give interracial couples a look. Daggers. They get uncomfortable when they see me on the street.”

        Spike Lee

        1. larryg Avatar

          you wanna talk about how Blacks dislike the Jews?

          what’s your point?

  8. larryg Avatar

    The “Conservative” view used to be a tolerant, moderate, preserve the environment, fiscal conservative view but it has turned into a virulent disease these days.

    and the ones that still have moderate views – are hiding.. afraid to advocate for moderate conservative principles.. you move right or you get your butt out.

  9. larryg Avatar

    you want to talk about the POTUS not having a birth certificate and being a Muslim or from Kenya.

    you want to align yourself with those who say those things without condemning them.

    what does it mean when you join those voices and say not a world about the racist tone of their messages? l what does it say about your views?

    I’m not accusing anyone of being racist but I am pointing out when you align with folks that are – without condemning their racism – it DOES reflect on you and my view of the Republican Party these days is that they seem to be mighty forgiving of those who say things like sub-human mongrel.. almost snickering about it, in fact.

    those folks who do this – they have no credibility on their criticism of the POTUS or of our current entitlements ( which were created by Congress not the POTUS).

    what exactly is the point about complaining about entitlements and this particular POTUS – who had no role in creating any of these entitlements in the first place?

    and why do we associated this POTUS with some entitlements that help the poor while we just totally ignore the other entitlements enjoyed by the middle and upper class?

    are the critics really serious about all entitlements – or just the ones the think this POTUS likes?

    the whole line of reasoning on the right these days is just pathological.

  10. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    “I do not think liberals stand on the stage with racists. ”

    Here’s a picture of liberal Bill Clinton posing for a publicity shot with racist Marion Barry …

    http://marionbarryjr.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/scrolling/mb-and-bill-clinton.jpg

    1. larryg Avatar

      Let’s see.. black folks are racists, right?

      if you go back to the 1960’s and the civil rights era – there were white and black racists?

      this is the loony tune logic of the right these days.

      you might need to re-learn what racism is – in the context of using government to discriminate against different colors of people.

      are you saying that even as blacks were being lynched in the South that there were also black “racists” doing the same to whites?

      and if a black man complained about white folks hanging his kin folk – that made him a racist also?

      DJ – do you know what racism really is?

      I’m becoming convinced that the folks on the right – are in denial as to what racism is… and that’s why they equate it to “politics”.

      DO you think Marion Barry was trying to keep the “white man down”?

      good grief!

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        You are frighteningly absurd.

        “DO you think Marion Barry was trying to keep the “white man down”?”

        Actually, Barry seemed to be more anti-Asian than anti-white. Maybe that’s somehow not racist to you.

        Here are the remarks he made during his victory speech after being elected to the DC City Counsel. He had previously served four terms as DC’s mayor. Yes, LarryG … this was from his victory speech after bein re-elected.

        “We’ve got to do something about these Asians coming in, opening up businesses, those dirty shops,” he said in the course of laying out his vision for the ward. “They ought to go. I’ll just say that right now, you know. But we need African American businesspeople to be able to take their places, too.”

        Do I think the four term mayor and newly elected city councilman from DC was trying to keep the Asian man down? Oh yes, LarryG – that is exactly what I think. And if he could have prevented Asian people from opening small businesses in the City of Washington, would ha have done it? Oh yes, LarryG – that is exactly what he would have done.

        You’ve lost this one and lot it badly LarryG. Time for you to move on to some new liberal fairy tale.

        1. larryg Avatar

          I don’t think I’m the one being absurd but you are proving that Conservatives either on purpose or through ignorance simply believe that individuals that are racists are no different than a govt that carries out racist policies against an entire race of people.

          to take someone like Marion Barry and equate his behavior to a century of racism against blacks to include lynchings is more than absurd. You’re equating his personal animosity to him using govt to harm those he dislikes. do you see the difference?

          do you see Marion Barry calling the POTUS of the US a honkie and advocating that he go back to where he came from?

          I abhor racism against any race – DJ.

          you’re denying the history here.. if your race was discriminated against for a hundred years by govt run by those of another race – then you’d have some legitimacy – but you were one of the whites – who were around when this was going on.

          Do you remember it?

          I do.

          I grew up with Massive Resistance guy and it had nothing to do with people like Marion Barry and everything to do with those in positions of power who would use that power to subjugate hundreds of thousands of people for no reason other than their color.

          Al Sharpton has the scars to prove it and yes he’s over the top sometimes but compared to whites who have never encountered what Sharpton has – is really convoluted thinking – in my view.

          you’re wrong DJ. you ought to admit it.

          do you really want to equate this to liberal and conservative?

          do you really?

          1. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Just when I think your arguments can’t get any worse, they get worse. Even by the generally low bar of your political logic you have failed here.

            An elected politician publicly declared that Asian Americans shouldn’t be allowed to open “dirty” stores in his city and that’s not racist. Why? Because white society discriminated against black society in the past. What that has to do with an African American being a racist in his anti-Asian remarks is beyond me. You also seem to forget that liberal hero Franklin D. Roosevelt locked up a whole lot of Asians during WWII for the simple act of being of Japanese descent. But that couldn’t be racist because FDR was a Democrat. And both FDR’s racism and Marion Barry’s racism don’t count because … well, who knows? Nobody can follow your twisted, broken logic.

            You want to call Ted Nugent a racist but can’t stomach the fact that Bill Clinton’s BFF Marion Barry is just as bad of a racist. Hell, maybe worse given that Barry made his racist comments while holding elected office.

            The you defend the indefensible by cheering for Al Sharpron. Hey, TawanaG – you might want to ask the white prosecutor willfully accused of rape by Al Sharpton whether Sharpton is a racist. Shaprton was found guilty of knowingly lying about a white man raping a 15 year old black girl. Sharpton was forced to pay damages in that hoax. How many black men has Ted Nugent knowingly defamed with false accusations of rape?

            You live in a typical fantasy land Tawana – LarryG. A flaky heavy metal musician says stupid, racist things and it proves Republicans are racist. Democratic elected officials say stupid, racist things and it doesn’t count.

            Tawana – Larry, are you so far out in space that you need a telescope to even see the Earth?

          2. larryg Avatar

            “An elected politician publicly declared that Asian Americans shouldn’t be allowed to open “dirty” stores in his city and that’s not racist. Why?”

            it’s clearly racist but it’s no where near the govt putting in places, laws – to harm all Asians in DC.

            ” Because white society discriminated against black society in the past. What that has to do with an African American being a racist in his anti-Asian remarks is beyond me. ”

            because you do not understand the difference between you disliking someone for the most shallow of reasons – and you justifying discrimination against them.

            “You also seem to forget that liberal hero Franklin D. Roosevelt locked up a whole lot of Asians during WWII for the simple act of being of Japanese descent. But that couldn’t be racist because FDR was a Democrat. And both FDR’s racism and Marion Barry’s racism don’t count because … well, who knows? Nobody can follow your twisted, broken logic.”

            I condemn what Roosevelt did – and I condemn any and all acts like it.
            I do not defend it, excuse it, nor condone it – for any reason – none.

            “You want to call Ted Nugent a racist but can’t stomach the fact that Bill Clinton’s BFF Marion Barry is just as bad of a racist. Hell, maybe worse given that Barry made his racist comments while holding elected office.”

            Marion Berry does not want to use govt to harm Asians… Ted Nugent is using racist language that mimics what we did to blacks – as a government and he supports the GOP and the GOP is mostly okay with it. Ted Nugent is not alone in this – he is just one more who has joined the GOP with these racist views.

            “The you defend the indefensible by cheering for Al Sharpron. Hey, TawanaG – you might want to ask the white prosecutor willfully accused of rape by Al Sharpton whether Sharpton is a racist. Shaprton was found guilty of knowingly lying about a white man raping a 15 year old black girl. Sharpton was forced to pay damages in that hoax. How many black men has Ted Nugent knowingly defamed with false accusations of rape?”

            I do not defend Sharpton – nor his personal ethics or lack of – but Sharpton does not call the POTUS and ignorant Whitey or condone govt mis-treatment of an entire race over their color.

            you are totally out of proportion on this DJ.

            “You live in a typical fantasy land Tawana – LarryG. A flaky heavy metal musician says stupid, racist things and it proves Republicans are racist. Democratic elected officials say stupid, racist things and it doesn’t count.”

            He’s not the only one DJ. We have a long history of people like him – involved in politics – even today – trying to suppress voting by blacks.

            You rail against Virginia for it’s behavior during Massive Resistance. There were thousands of whites saying what Nugent said – at that time.. openly as Nugent says now. He’s repeating their words ….

            “Tawana – Larry, are you so far out in space that you need a telescope to even see the Earth?”

            I don’t think so … you just don’t agree with my views and want to call me a liberal – even as I’m more conservative than you on a variety of issues

            you seek to negate my points by classifying me and that’s not a good thing for you to do … you know?

  11. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    “I do not think liberals stand on the stage with racists. ”

    Here’s a picture of liberal Joe Biden literally standing on stage with racist Al Sharpton.

    http://ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/joe-biden-al-sharpton-nan.jpg?w=640&h=398

    “If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house”?

    How about referring to the Jewish owner of Freddy’s Fashion Mart, Fred Harari, as a “white interloper” for seeking to expand his business in Harlem? (You may have heard of Freddy’s. It was also known as the Harlem Massacre. One of Sharpton’s followers also disapproved of the “white interloper” and burned the store to the ground, murdering eight people including himself.)

    “As for the one Mormon running for office, those who really believe in God will defeat him anyways, so don’t worry about that; that’s a temporary situation.”

    “David Dinkins, you wanna be the only nigger on television, only nigger in the newspaper, only nigger that can talk. Don’t cover them, don’t talk to them, ’cause you got the only nigger problem. ‘Cause you know if a black man stood up next to you, they would see you for the whore that you really are.”

    Yeah, LarryG – liberals don’t stand on stage with racists!

    1. larryg Avatar

      you call Al Sharpton – who is a Civil RIghts era person – a racist?

      Does Al Sharpton want to do to whites what whites did to blacks?

      do you understand what happened to black people in the US from the Civil War to at least the Civil Rights era?

      do you advocate that we return to those days?

      sorry DJ – you are on the wrong side here.. you’re basically equating all of what happened to black folks from the civil war on – to what black activists do today – in reaction to that… (I’m not condoning it but you’re totally on the wacko side of this).

      for more than 100 years we have systematically used the government to harm the rights of black people and you equate a couple of modern-day black activists who have said things over the top – as equivalent to the decades of racism that has taken place as well as the current words from white people to essentially justify those acts of racism.

      Sorry DJ -you’re way out on this guy.

      you do not understand proportionality and you look as if you just deny what has happened to blacks – as a race… you’d have been in favor of hanging Frederick Douglas for his outrageous words about whites?

      how many white folks do you know that were lynched by blacks ?

  12. larryg Avatar

    I would apologize to DJ and others who might have been offended by the dialogue but something useful came out of it .. not necessarily a good thing in and of itself – but more understanding on my part of how others feel.

    I see the racism issue as significant in terms of the politics of opposition to this POTUS.

    I am a child of the 1960’s, massive resistance, blacks lynched, civil rights workers hoses, attacked with dogs – and killed …

    Virginia – as DJ himself has pointed out, the people of Virginia did not demand the end of Massive Resistance or allow the Lovings to be married.

    Nope. They had to lose in the SCOTUS after they fought tooth and nail for years to defend their right (sic) to continue their despotic treatment of blacks.

    that’s what’s ironic in the conversation with DJ. He points out the above in many of his posts – then he turns around and (apparently) essentially justifies racism in the GOP because “blacks do racists things also” !

    a legacy of bad treatment of a race of people – a stain on our history, a shameful part of the hypocrisy of “all men are created equal” and “America the land of Opportunity”, etc.

    we had for far too long, far too many people who stood by and did nothing even though they knew in their hearts that we were doing wrong – and they stood by and did nothing while the KKK and other groups basically ran amok.

    Too many of us were cowards – refusing to step up and renounce the racists.

    and for me – this goes on today.

    we still have racists.. they still harbor hateful thoughts about blacks –

    and they speak about it… and they create cartoon images of a black Potus to demonstrate their feelings.

    the rest of us have a duty – and that includes any political party that has such racists in their ranks.

    We should not tolerate it .

    these people who are racists – also hate others – other races, other cultures, Gays and Lesbians, mixed marriages, same-sex marriages, and it goes on and on.

    and we are giving them a political party to nest in when we should be sending them to where they belong – off as their own group for the rest of
    the country to revile in disgust.

    but we’re not doing this. we’re playing little games pretending that it’s really “okay”.. it’s just another style of politics – no different than calling the POTUS other names.

    so racism – is staging a come back – and we have the same circumstances where some folks tolerate it, abide by it, even excuse and condone it.

    and as folks can tell, I am not one of those people.

    And people like me – are said to be “liberals” because of our stand on racism.

    can anyone imagine a more obscene thought?

    I’m a “liberal” because I hate racism and Conservatives have a more reasoned position about it.. Racists are just part of the Conservative fabric – live with it.

    Okay – let’s hear some folks weigh in and tell me where I’ve gone wrong on this.

    I’m serious – let’s talk about this and help me understand why my views are wrong.

  13. JuelfsSwanson Avatar
    JuelfsSwanson

    Thank you for highlighting our report (even with your reference to our anodyne tradition). Your engagement with our work suggests it is worth serious consideration, if not debate. We judge this report a success if it sparks a larger conversation about how to best meet the needs of all children — with married parents, cohabiting parents, and single parents — living in economic insecurity.

    We would like to highlight the finding in the report that, for us, is the most striking, and which you reference only in passing above:

    Almost 1 out of 2 children (45 percent) in economic insecurity live with married parents.

    These children already live in the type of family structure that should be ideal for them, and yet their parents still struggle to provide. For these children, promoting marriage does nothing to ameliorate their economic condition. (I think we can agree that polygamy is probably not a viable alternative). These children need initiatives that look beyond marriage and family structure. That is a point we attempted to emphasize.

    And we agree that these initiatives do not need to be governmental. Certainly private, religious, and non-profit sectors can serve these children, and all children living in economic insecurity – and the closer these organizations are to the communities in which these children live, the more effective we suspect they will be.

    We’re with you in knowing that governmental intervention, alone, is not enough. Neither is marriage promotion, alone, sufficient. We need more, and these children deserve more. Thanks for keeping the conversation going.

    Annie Rorem & Megan Juelfs-Swanson

    1. larryg Avatar

      1 out of 2 live with married parents – yes..

      but if you listen to Conservatives – when it comes to public education and entitlements – their view is that single-parent families are at issue.

      Liberals OTOH – have steadfastly maintained that non-traditional family structure that provide love and support to kids – can be successful also.

      It all depends on your ideology… apparently…

      but then again.. when your ideology is looking to blame certain people and certain lifestyles… from the get go.. you get really dumb conclusions.

      thank you for your Report.

      I just love the way that Jim Bacon “spun” it as liberals who complain about one parent families!

      Conservatives have maintained from the Get GO that single parent families are a POX on mankind and single women trying to not have kids – using birth control – are promiscuous hussies…

      some day -we’ll have some honest discussions based on facts – not ideological spin – but not yet I guess.

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