Who Has Ralph Northam’s Ear?

by Kerry Dougherty

Why appoint a task force if you’re going to ignore its recommendations?

That’s what many Virginia business leaders wondered last week when they saw Gov. Ralph Northam’s arbitrary rules for reopening the commonwealth.

On April 24, the governor merrily announced the formation of a “diverse” 24-member “Covid-19 Business Task Force” to advise him on how to safely reopen the commonwealth. The group included owners of a brewery, a vineyard, a bakery, a campground, and a gym, as well as representatives from Kings Dominion, the Hampton Coliseum, Walmart, the hospitality industry and others.

“These are Virginians who are thinking every day about how to protect the health of their staff and the communities in which they operate,” boasted Northam at the time. “They understand that our public health and business interests are aligned—we must take measures that both ensure the safety and confidence of consumers and prevent the spread of disease. Their input will continue to be critical as we plan a safe, consistent, successful path forward.”

As it turned out, according to The Richmond Times-Dispatch, their input was neither critical nor heeded.

According to  a number of task force members were as shocked as the rest of us when they saw Northam’s rules for reopening that were unveiled last Friday.

For instance, Northam decreed that restaurants with outdoor dining could reopen, but indoor dining would remain shuttered.

Restaurant owners who had come up with detailed plans to make indoor spaces safe were livid.

I don’t often find myself agreeing with Virginia Beach developer and hospitality magnate Bruce Thompson, but when he’s right, he’s right.

“The recommendations were to socially distance tables, total sanitization protocols before and after guests, no bar service, no standing, and reservations strongly encouraged. It was also discussed that there would be no gathering inside the premises, no party sizes larger than 8, and all servers to wear masks and gloves,” Thompson, a member of the governor’s task force, told the TD.

“Outside dining was never mentioned much less restricting dining to only outside. That was a total surprise to the task force members.”

Talk about picking winners and losers. Seems restaurants without patios are now destined to go broke.

In an interview with The Washington Post, Thompson said he’d been in daily contact with the governor last week and was floored by Northam’s decision to keep the beaches closed.

“On Friday night, I asked him what the hell happened,” Thompson fumed, “ and we haven’t had a lot of conversation since then.”

At his press conference last week, Northam was asked about his curious decisions and the governor brushed off the question with his trademark arrogance.

“Collectively, we have made that decision. Rather than relitigate that here, that’s the decision we’ve made.”

It’s not just the task force that was left out of the process. The governor hasn’t been huddling with city leaders much, either.

Virginia Beach Mayor Bobby Dyer told me that the last one-on-one conversation he had with the governor was on March 30, hours before Northam announced that he was restricting access to the beaches through June 10.

Dyer said that during that phone call he pleaded with Northam not to close the beaches altogether.

After requesting an in-person meeting with Northam, Dyer and other Beach officials and Thompson were granted a video conference with the governor last Thursday. They presented him with detailed plans to reopen the beaches safely.

“He seemed comfortable with our plans,” Dyer told me.

The next day, however, Beach officials were flabbergasted to learn — from watching Northam’s press conference — that the beaches would remain closed to sunbathers. As usual, they were not given a heads up about the governor’s decision.

Someone needs to remind the intransigent Northam that Virginia Beach is the commonwealth’s largest city and its lifeblood is the tourist industry. Local leaders have a better grasp of the situation than the governor does from Richmond.

So far the city has seen just 18 deaths from Covid-19. Every loss is lamentable, but that number is small. It works out to just four deaths per 100,000.

The Beach shouldn’t have to wait to open its beaches until Fairfax brings its numbers under control or the Eastern Shore solves its chicken plant outbreaks.

There’s another reason Northam ought to listen to Bobby Dyer. Not only was Dyer just named one of the top three mayors in the nation by Newsmax, but he has a unique perspective on the plight of the newly unemployed.

He’s one of them.

Dyer was furloughed three weeks ago from his job with Encompass Health Systems, where he was an in-home physical therapist. Northam’s ban on elective surgeries was one of the factors that helped devastate the PT industry.

To stay financially afloat until the need for physical therapists resumes, Dyer says he’s had to liquidate a retirement account to augment his modest mayoral salary.

Not that he’s complaining.

“My problems pale in comparison to so many other people in Virginia Beach who are really struggling,” Dyer said somberly.

Dyer and Northam are set to speak by phone Friday morning, perhaps to come to some sort of compromise on opening the beaches before Memorial Day.

Let’s hope the plan does not include anything insane like requiring masks on the beach.

If history is any predictor, the mayor and stressed-out Beach business owners will learn the fate of the city’s beaches by watching the governor’s Friday press conference.

This is no way to run a commonwealth. No wonder Northam was one of four governors given a failing grade for his response to the Covid-19 crisis by The Wall Street Journal.


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Comments

98 responses to “Who Has Ralph Northam’s Ear?”

  1. The scary thing is that Northam’s arbitrary and intransigent management style appears to be typical of all of his decision-making throughout the epidemic.

    1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
      Peter Galuszka

      Reed. Is that an ad hominem attack? Just asking. Thanks. Peter

  2. Republicans had better capitalize on this.

  3. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    And now comes His Honor The Mayor, Levar Stoney, desperately seeking justification to shut down the City of Richmond a while longer, because the growing political narrative is COVID is a racist disease. Of course, all signs are that the lower-income households are being beaten up the worst by the loss of jobs, the closing of small businesses. I was heading into the city Monday to maintain a long standing business relationship, but I can find a replacement in Henrico easily….He does this and Richmond becomes a giant Bristol, VA, with closed businesses within feet of Henrico and Chesterfield competitors who a bit more open. His own voters will be crossing the lines to do things in droves.

    Jim, strike “throughout the pandemic.” For his whole term the Northam operation has been viewed as insular, with the top staff and especially some on the policy staff really running things and driving the final decisions or at least framing the policy choices. Politics rules. The polling still shows most Democrats and many others terrified about the prospect of “re-opening.” They do not cast a wide net for input, even among Democrats. But he and that team delivered the legislative takeover, so there it is.

  4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Northam’s background and training is showing. In the military, commanders do not have to explain their orders. Doctors often do not feel they need to explain their decisions to lay people. As Governor and a politician, he should have explained his decisions to the folks he asked to give him advice, particularly since he was not following some of it.

    That being said, the role of a task force is to provide guidance and advice to the Governor. That is no rule or law that says that he has to do what the task force says. Furthermore, the guidelines laid out by Thompson and Dyer may form the basis of the Governor’s ultimate plan, just not the timing.

    Finally, Kerry may want to reflect on the possibility that the low death rate in Virginia Beach may be due to the Governor’s stay at home orders.

    1. Yes, Northam lacks good bedside manner as a governor. No matter how one views the substance of his administration, we might agree that he lacks effective communication skills. He makes the same mistake Theresa Sullivan made: he forgets who he works for and fails to provide good explanations/reports to his supervisors.

      Task forces have always struck me as a way to spread out blame. No one remembers whether the guidance offered was taken, just that there were multiple names attached to the matter.

    2. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      Maybe I watched too many MASH episodes but are doctors in the military really commanders or more subject matter experts? Northam doesn’t seem able to command much of anything. I get the impression that he never has commanded anything. Kind of like Trump. Trump’s business really wasn’t hotels or casinos or airlines or colleges. It was branding. The Trump name denotes high end luxury. For what it’s worth, the Trump hotels where I stay (like in Chicago) are high end, expensive and quite well run. Trump Inc may set the standards but I don’t think Trump Inc is doing the day-to-day operation. The Donald knows what a well maintained golf green should be but don’t ask him a lot of questions about fertilizer or pesticide. Ralph may have been an officer in the Army but I don’t know that he’s led a lot of people.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        so I’m trying to visualize what character Northam would have been in M*A*S*H.. 😉 … i.e. competent doctor – never to lead?

      2. Exactly. I’d be first to say that professional politicians are detrimental to governance, but we find ourselves with a president and a governor who are unskilled in critical areas. Trump’s base conflates media flash with leadership, and Northam’s base is comforted by his kindler, gentle country doc demeanor. I had hoped that each of them would have the smarts to recognize their own deficiencies (strong leaders do this) and recruit a strong, steady team around their administration. I think that the only members of Trump crowd who have stuck around are Mnuchin and his kids. Northam’s crew hasn’t made any huge contributions that I can identify.

        Caveat emptor, we get the government we deserve.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Nope. If you can convince me that Northam is an outlier with respect to other Governors, then I’d agree.

          But, he ‘s not. Look across the spectrum. These issues are going on in almost all the other states … also…

          Northam is no Cuomo or Newsome or Hogan – I’ll stipulate But beyond that he’s just not that far outside the others if at all.

          You have to separate the partisans on this from other critics.

          Like I’ve said before – if you have critics from both sides – yes – but when almost all of it is coming from RPV – and you CAN see this on TWITTER every day – then you KNOW that some of this is partisan. The GOP is using this for political advantage – and yes I’d say the very same thing if it were a GOP gov and Dems doing it.

          It is what it is.

          and FYI – Northam is nothing like Trump… when it comes to dealing with reporters, ordinary people who disagree with him, political opponents, etc… An asshat he is not.

      3. MAdams Avatar

        They are SME’s, they don’t function within the traditional command structure

    3. matthurt92 Avatar
      matthurt92

      It has been my experience that leaders who don’t explain their actions tend to do so because they feel that they can’t adequately defend them. I don’t know if this is the case here or not.

  5. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Maybe Mr. Northam is waiting for the task force to complete the required training on equity, diversity, and inclusion?

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      Now that was funny!

  6. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Governor Ralph Northam is banal. He is an empty suit. Northam is husk without a soul, a play actor, a puppet who imitates like a Chameleon, an empty vessel forever seeking a role to play so as to activate and draw attention to himself. This man is utterly without principle, or reliability. Words and actions mean nothing to him beyond their utility to his personal advancement. He will quite literally say and do anything as long as it gains him attention, including making a fool of himself to hold and keep power, play acting on center stage. This is the only thing he values, all else is a shallow game, and he is vicious and cunning at playing his games, as his life and livelihood, and very being depends on his playing whatever roll his audience, his momentary master, at the moment demands.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      If it had not been for your first sentence, I would have been certain that you were describing another well-known political leader.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Another? How about far too many? 🙂

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Wow, I’m glad I didn’t use an ad hominem for Trump.

  7. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Teed. Is that an ad hominem attack?

  8. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I meant reed

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      CrazyJD is our resident expert on fallacious argument styles but I think that calling King Ralph an empty suit would qualify as ad hominem. Some of the other commentary gets to Northam’s personality and whether that personality makes him a good fit to govern. That seems legitimate to me. Calling Nixon a paranoid sounds ad hominem. However, it was his paranoia which metastasized into paranoid delusion that led to his downfall. Northam seems very shallow, cunning and imperious. He seems incapable of admitting that he made a mistake. And that’s a dangerous personality profile for a governor during a time of crisis.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Empty suits are everywhere. It is all a matter of degree. Politicians by nature have more than their fair share of empty suits. They need to fill those empty suits with something. Hence one of Mark Twain’s favorite subjects were politicians. Hence, Northam is a master of disguise, and it has been on full public display numerous times, in blazing colors, since blackface event.

  9. Top-GUN Avatar
    Top-GUN

    The reason for the emergency order was worry of overloaded hospitals. Hospitals are now ready to handle influx. Mission accomplished..
    Emergency is over, no reason for lockdowns.. or government telling us what we can do..
    Everybody knows the subject and issues.
    Let each business make its own decisions on how to operate and customers can decide who they want to do business with…. but that would be to much freedom and liberty for bureaucrats and others that want to run every detail of our lives… a covid pox on all you liberals…

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Top-Gun,

      Stop all your damn common sense talk, about us little people being responsible for ourselves and our families, stop all this damn talk about being able to keep and run our own businesses, and families, And most of all, stop all this damn talk about us having liberty, including the liberty to take and judge risk, and succeed at it or at anything without the Government telling us what to do, and to otherwise be responsible for ourselves, and our family, and friends.

      Stop being so damn uppity. Who you think you are? The Honorable Ralph Northam!!!

  10. Top-GUN Avatar
    Top-GUN

    PS.. if you claim you’re worried about suffering and death like Fauci did you’re just a stupid liar..
    If you’re worried about suffering and death you’d immediately make smoking, (tobacco, pot, e-cig) Illegal…

    1. Top-GUN, when you use the phrase, “You’re just a stupid liar,” I hope you’re not referring to other participants on this blog. You make a valid point — the over-wrought concern about COVID-19 deaths is highly selective, indeed, one might say hypocritical, given the lack of concern about deaths from other sources. Still, we want to keep the language civil — no matter how dim-witted we think the other guy is.

      This is a hard rule to enforce. There’s lots of gray area. Some participants have mastered the art of sarcasm and snark. Snark is designed to infuriate, not to persuade. I reluctantly permit it, but I draw the line at insults and name calling. I appreciate your participation in the comments, but I appeal to you to abide by your better instincts.

      1. Top-GUN Avatar
        Top-GUN

        When you don’t like the message shoot the messenger.
        Anyone in a position of power and influence, Fauci is a good example, so is Northam, that claims to be so worried about suffering and death that they would lock down, kill if you want, our economy but not do everything in their power to stop smoking is what.. come up with a good word…. Maybe two faced. And anyone who is supposedly very smart, brilliant, educated, choose a word that would claim that they are worried about suffering and death but don’t realize that my simple response makes them look what.. not very smart,, choose a word.
        Mine are darn good points and arguments.
        The reason for the emergency, overwhelmed health care, has been taken care of. Their is no longer an emergency… and therefore all this lock down stuff now has no basis in law.. Their is no authority to continue lockdowns, or tell businesses how or when to open.. Government needs to step aside and let the free market do its thing..

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          so.. now we’re equating Fauci with Northam?

          hmmm… how about it DJ, agree?

      2. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        Top-GUN’s comment was not a reply. It did not display with a vertical line next to the text leading to an original comment. Therefore, I interpret his admonition against “stupid liars” as a generalized comment against those who selectively claim to worry about “death and suffering” rather than an insult pointed at any particular individual.

        While I might prefer the word “deceptive” to the term “stupid liar” I agree with Top-GUN’s generalized comment. A lot of people continue to unwittingly or willfully refuse to accept that flattening the curve did not change the area under the curve. They rail against people who want to reopen as selfish but can’t explain their own end game.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: ” While I might prefer the word “deceptive” to the term “stupid liar” I agree with Top-GUN’s generalized comment. A lot of people continue to unwittingly or willfully refuse to accept that flattening the curve did not change the area under the curve. They rail against people who want to reopen as selfish but can’t explain their own end game.”

          Well.. the “open up” crowd has no clue beyond the initial though. Ask them how Schools should operate, stadium events, dorms, swimming pools… etc, etc.. is just “open up now”?

          That’s not “selfish” – that’s ignorant AND dangerous to others who do have the right to say so.

          re: “the area under the curve”.

          What you’re not addressing is COVID19 treatment. Just like with HIV and other diseases that have no vaccination, they DID, over years, work out some effective treatments that end up saving many lives.

          It”s DUMB to advocate for “open it all up now or else we’re going to raise hell”. Don’t be stupid.

          This is not a one-step-and-you-re done” problem – no matter how much some want it to be.

        2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
          Reed Fawell 3rd

          “They rail against people who want to reopen as selfish but can’t explain their own end game.”

          A great comment. Why?

          1/ Very insightful, and
          2/ It leads to an important question: Why?

          Lets keep our eye on the “Why?” in all its complexity as that answer evolves into many headed monster.

  11. TBill Avatar

    I am sure Northam admin could do better. But we have to look at the fact this is not-quite-ready-for-prime-time Virginia and the Dems are in a completely new mode with absolute control of Virginia gov’t.

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      Ahh, the Virginia that looks upon it’s past history with a starry-eyed gaze, never to reconsider what may have been done differently. Some might say that Virginia is a has-been. I submit that it is a never-was, isn’t right now, and never will be.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Well, Virginia did play the central, indeed the indispensable, roll of building and initially leading the nation we called America.

        Thus Virginia and Virginians made possible all that America has done in the world since its founding. Without Virginians and Virginia, surely there would be no United States.

      2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead V

        Well. What is your alternative path for Virginia?

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          No alternative path for Virginia. It’s beyond repair.

      3. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        2020 marks the 200th anniversary of Virginia’s irrelevance other than as a negative force in American history. Pity the poor plantation elite who were raised on tales of The War of Northern Aggression and the many benefits of the Byrd Machine. They are now routinely confronted by the reality that Virginia’s leaders have provided two centuries of missed opportunities interspersed with periods of horrific abject immoral failure.

        Our sainted legislators in Richmond speak in hushed reverential tones when discussing Mr. Jefferson. Instead they should save the reverence for Pierre L’Enfant who built the city that keeps the sinking ship of Virginia from permanently sinking beneath the waves coming from a corrupt and incompetent state government.

        1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
          Reed Fawell 3rd

          Rippert is trying to bait me now. And you too James Wyatt Whitehead V. I know Don, George Washington was a New Yorker in drag.

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            Mr. Reed I think I was trying to engage the fellow before you. No baiting from me. Sorry pal.

          2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            You missed understood me James Wyatt Whitehead V. You got shoe on wrong foot. Read it again, pal.

        2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead V

          Mr. DJ old school Virginians love our tales. I just read about Jeb Stuart’s Chambersburg Raid. Those boys rode 87 miles in 27 hours non stop on horseback. The raid actually began with a ball in Charlestown, WV and ended with a congratulatory ball in Leesburg.

          This afternoon I plan to reread the story of Spotswood and the Knights of the Golden Horseshoe. I don’t think they have good stories like this in places like say North Dakota.

        3. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          It would be interesting to know how many people move to Virginia for reasons other than Federal related employment. And, of those that moved here for Federal related employement, how many stick around after that reason no longer exists.

          It would also be interesting to know how Virginia does in terms of non-Federal related economic development compared to other states.

          1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Virginia now at long last has a very strong economic development team led by Steve Moret. He has made superb strides in No. Virginia and throughout the state since his appointment by Terry Mcauliffe, both as to short, mid and long term planning and execution. Steve Moret and his team’s work has been recognized nationally. It has gone a long way towards broadening and deepening the economic resources in the state, including reducing its reliance on Federal relatively speaking while deepening too the potential for that work. As a result, Virginia is far better positioned now to weather the current storm than it was before Steve Moret’s arrival on scene. A review of the record makes that plain.

          2. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            From what I’ve seen of “economic development” as it’s historically been practiced in Virginia, it’s been “throw tax dollars at private enterprise without accountability”. If this is no longer the case then I will be pleasantly suprised.

            Numbers and hard data comparing Virginia to other states would be instructive.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I guess it could be called a curse but NoVa and the Washington DC MSA is the de-facto HQ for almost every single Govt agency from DOD to the FCC to the EPA to HHS , you name it and by extension every major Corporate entity that is regulated by the Federal Govt – and beyond that thousands and thousands of govt services contractors….

            And as long as the Navy builds aircraft carriers and subs, Newport News is going to be a player and in turn all the various systems on those ships… manufacturers, suppliers, etc.

            Va has a per capita income of 37K, Md 39K and NC which is mostly private sector ED – 27K.

            Both Va and NC have vast rural regions that used to be boyed by small towns but those towns have basically been hollowed out in many places.

            Moret may well be the magic sauce for Virginia but there are some realities that even he cannot easily fix – education in the rural areas is a continuing problem – even manufacturing these days requires a higher educated worker than before.

          4. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            idiocracy, you say,

            “From what I’ve seen of “economic development” as it’s historically been practiced in Virginia, it’s been “throw tax dollars at private enterprise without accountability.”

            Yes, I too saw that in spades before Moret arrived, including embarrassing Chinese group incentive with the hand held billboard Check held by the Governor, Terry himself, for big bucks that went south. Indeed that “deal” likely sparked the search to someone who knew what they doing. Fortunately, they found Steve Moret from down south in Cajun Country.

            I have thought the Moret and his team have handled the incentives in a masterful way, given the needs of the market place, which are not always ideal. We have written about this on Bacon’s Rebellion at some length. I will try to link in some old commentary on that subject here.

  12. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    If it’s true that Northam is claiming a business round table and after he goes public with his guidelines, members of the round-table go public and say that was not their understanding…..

    if that’s true – then I’m becoming less and less supportive of Northam behaviors, the caveat here – “if it’s true”… not sure I trust Kerry nor Bader to tell the truth from on high… but again, this does not sound good to me.

    1. I can confirm comments quoted here by Bruce Thompson and Bobby Dyer are same ones that ran in Virginian-Pilot, if that’s any counts.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Yep. does not sound good.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        yep… but what Thompson and company wants is this:

        ” Gov. Ralph Northam decided not to include beaches in his first phase of reopening, keeping the sand closed to everything but solitary exercise and fishing. With Memorial Day less than two weeks away, that spells trouble for all resort-city businesses, from hotels to the three-for-$10 T-shirt shops, henna tattoo parlors andpirate-themed minigolf courses on Atlantic and Pacific avenues.”

        Northams sins aside – does anyone here REALLY THINK the beaches should open up everything – from motels to restaurants to entertainment, etc?

        I get the “what the hell” comment but is that what Thompson was advocating on the business roundtable and did others on the rountable agree?

        What it sounds like is that INDIVIDUALS on the roundtable gave “input” as opposed to it operating collaboratively in developing agreed-to guidelines they then recommended to Northam.

        I cannot imagine all the members of the roundtable would have agreed to fully open up the beaches the way that Thompson is saying – and if they did – I’m sure we’d hear that from Thompson and many of the others so it’s a little murky here … as to how the roundtable was really operating – and Thompson obviously has his own axe to grind.

        1. The reopening answer isn’t binary. Increments and guidelines and always the ability to change course if it doesn’t work are all available to the Governor.

  13. Top-GUN Avatar
    Top-GUN

    Hmmmm… someone thinks us uninformed, ignorant , do I dare say stupid plebes have no answers beyond open it up..
    Well so far no one has disagreed with me that the Emergency is over.. therefore no authority for lockdown.
    Second I’m absolutely sure that business people and customers can figure out how many plastic barriers we need and how much distancing is needed.. and I also know that only God knows if their will ever be a vaccine, .. in the meantime you’re gonna get it…
    Advice a lot of folk could implement to help survive the virus. .. Lose some Weight…

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The possibility of overloaing hospital capacity was one reason for the emergency and stay-at-home orders. But it was not the only reason and, arguably, not the main reason. A new, “novel”, virus had appeared, about which little was known, beyond the fact that it was highly contagious, made people very sick and killed many of them. Furthermore, there was no cure and no vaccine. The protection of public health was the justification behind the emergency orders.

      Now that the emergency orders seemed to have the desired effect of slowing down the spread of the virus and it is perhaps diminishing, we can begin to ease up on the orders. The danger to public health is still there; the virus has not gone away. We need to learn gradually how to manage the risk without rushing into it.

  14. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Well so far no one has disagreed with me that the Emergency is over.. therefore no authority for lockdown.”

    hmph… really?

    1. MAdams Avatar

      The lockdown was to flatten the curve, that was it’s end state. It has no other purpose, outside of prolonging the situation. It’s not a remedy, you cannot wait out COVID-19.

      To wait for a vaccine, is not a tenable goal. We simply cannot function as we are for an extended period of time.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Think about how we dealt with HIV – still no vaccine. There are other diseases without vaccines.

        The option not recognized is treatment. As we gain more experience, science will work to develop better treatments – perhaps life-saving treatments so that the virus no longer kills if proper treatment is provided – just like with HIV.

        The choice is NOT 1. wait it out forever or
        2. don’t wait it out and a lot will die

        there is a middle.

        the right treatment and no one dies…. or in between

        1. MAdams Avatar

          There are no corollaries between COVID-19 and HIV. HIV formerly known as GRID was only believed to target a specific subset of the population until Magic Johnson came out with it.

          HIV therapies that prolong someone’s life take millions of dollars ask Magic and they also take 30 plus years to develop.

          You cannot wait the 18 months for a double-blind study to determine efficacious treatment either, it’s again not tenable. Clinically prove a drug can be used as treatment, means people die. Someone has to be in the control group, that’s how medicine works.

          Those who are at risk for serve reactions should protect themselves by all means, but keeping the majority locked down is not the right policy.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I think you are forgetting how many are actually in the workforce right now who are older and/or have health conditions.

            Most of the epidemiologists that come on TV , for instance, are in their 50, 60,70s. Anthony Fauci is 79, Deborah Birx is 64.

            What are you going to do with those folks? Lock THEM down?

            The answer is not what you’re implying and yes, it’s frustrating because there are no easy answers but the answer is not what you’re saying. It’s simplistic and not realistic because a good number of people that are in the workforce right now are older and have health issues.

          2. MAdams Avatar

            I already answered that, it was protect them as should been the priority to begin with. They can work modified until there is a treatment or vaccine. However, confining the healthy to a paupers existences is not the answer.

            The needs of the few don’t outweigh the needs of the many.

            You’ve provided no solution, you want to shelter in place ad infinitum, perhaps that’s because you’re retired and your pension isn’t hindered by this situation. However, that’s not a reality for most of the people of Virginia and around the Nation. They are struggling and no amount of money that will drive up inflation is going to right their ship.

            As before, it’s clear you do not know what is required for a clinical study. Death occurs, it sucks but it is a requirement to prove efficacy.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” The needs of the few don’t outweigh the needs of the many.”

            Do you know how many? By my count , it’s 40% or more, people throughout the workforce.

            “You’ve provided no solution, you want to shelter in place ad infinitum, perhaps that’s because you’re retired and your pension isn’t hindered by this situation. However, that’s not a reality for most of the people of Virginia and around the Nation. They are struggling and no amount of money that will drive up inflation is going to right their ship.”

            Not true. I advocate widespread testing for all places where there are people congregating especially workplaces.

            To detect people as they get infected and isolate to protect those who are not yet infected – to include all those folks who are working but not young and healthy.

            You’re forgetting just how many people are actually in the workforce, not retired and not sheltered in place.

            “As before, it’s clear you do not know what is required for a clinical study. Death occurs, it sucks but it is a requirement to prove efficacy.”

            There may well be no vaccine soon, perhaps not ever, but work continues on treatments, and we’ll eventually get them and those treatments WILL cut down deaths under that curve.

            You’re totally not connected with realities here. What do you think should happen for colleges, sports, k-12, summer camps, cruise ships, airlines? Just open them all up without any restrictions at all.. no social distancing?

            How many folks do you think – favor that approach? It’s not near as many as you might think. Most folks do not want it all opened up and it’s not a govt thing – they just won’t do it on their own. The economy is not going to come back the way you think it will – it’s just not that simple.

          4. MAdams Avatar

            40% of what? If you’re going to stat statistics at least back them up with data. I’ll do the work for you since you refuse to provide anything but opinion.

            https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/median-age-labor-force.htm

            That’s not a solution, and doesn’t end the lockdown. Also, the testing that would be important would be antibody testing, not active virus testing.

            I am not and the statistics state that they’ve probably already contracted and passed the virus and were asymptotic.

            Again, you have no clue how a clinical study is conducted. Efficacy requires double blind studies, that means someone doesn’t get the drug. That means someone dies. I’ve also never stated they should stop working on treatments or vaccines (that’s a strawman).

            “You’re totally not connected with realities here. What do you think should happen for colleges, sports, k-12, summer camps, cruise ships, airlines? Just open them all up without any restrictions at all.. no social distancing?”

            That’s another strawman argument, as I said you’ve offered no solutions, lockdown ad infinitum. I’m clearly more inline with reality than someone who no longer needs employment because they are drawing a federal pension.

            “How many folks do you think – favor that approach? It’s not near as many as you might think. Most folks do not want it all opened up and it’s not a govt thing – they just won’t do it on their own. The economy is not going to come back the way you think it will – it’s just not that simple.”

            Third strawman in a single comment, is that a record? Do you offer anything of substance or do you just pontificate out of your 4th point of contact?

            It’s the individuals right to determine what is good or what is not good for them, not the Government, that is called Tyranny.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            “Between 1999-2000 and 2009-2010, the percentage of Americans in the 45- to 64-year age group with two or more of the conditions grew from 16 percent to 21 percent, according to survey results. For adults 65 and older, the percentage increased from 37 percent to 45 percent. The survey was compiled by the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics, part of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.”

            https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=160880

            and you have no clue about testing , guy.

            Testing is how you detect people who are asymptomatic and especially so in a workplace where having a lot of infected can shut the workplace down. You don’t seem to understand that.

            re: ” t’s the individuals right to determine what is good or what is not good for them, not the Government, that is called Tyranny.”

            that’s total BS. Tell that to people who get poisoned or hurt or harmed by others who don’t care if they do harm others. That’s what govt IS for to protect people from those who don’t care if they harm others.

          6. MAdams Avatar

            The BLS data form this year trumps an article from 2012.

            I don’t have a clue about testing? Oh really, when was the first case of COVID-19 in the United States? If you answer is February you’re off by about 2 months at this time.

            Antibody testing is what should determine who and what can open.

            You again fail to address your lack of knowledge of clinical trials, here I’ll enlighten you.

            https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/about-studies/learn#ClinicalTrials

            If people are poisoned or hurt by negligence the Court systems determines the repercussions.

            Not even remotely true, to a function of the Government.

            A Government does as follows:

            1)Protects Rights
            2)Promote Rule of Law
            3)Prepare for Common Defense
            4) Support Economic System
            5)Provide Public Services

            Your desire for an overreaching Government that determines what is good for people is not our form, and you’d be better suited elsewhere.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            BLS data from 2012? that’s bogus. All those folks with conditions suddenly no longer had them?

            Are you seriously going to say that?

            re: testing – antibody testing only tells you who has had it. It does not tell you who is infected and asymptomatic and can then infect many others in a workplace.

            re: clinical trials – what the? what does that have to do with anything? That you can’t wait? who says? Did they do clinical trials for remdesivir? how long for them?

            re: the govt and harm.

            re: 1)Protects Rights
            2)Promote Rule of Law
            3)Prepare for Common Defense
            4) Support Economic System
            5)Provide Public Services

            That’s your view. It’s not the way govt really works and it’s not the way the courts rule and it’s not the way a majority of people believe.

            The reason is that individuals who are harmed do not have the financial ability to go up against a large corporation with dozens of lawyers.

            And guys like you spend time trying to get rid of tort laws anyhow… right?

            You’re hailing from the far right here…correct?

          8. MAdams Avatar

            I didn’t provide BLS data from 2012, that’s when the article you provided was from. The BLS data I provided gave the median age (your original argument, without evidence) from this year.

            Antibody testing tells you who currently has an immune factor and can safely return to society without fear of infection or passing it on.

            Remdesivir had a clinical trial it’s clinical trial in 2009 for Hep C which is was developed. It’s currently being given with Emergency Therapeutic license (common knowledge). After it didn’t work with Hep C as hope, it was tried with Ebola in 2015, it again didn’t provide the results desired.

            It’s currently undergoing trials for COVID-19, patients are currently dying in those trials.

            Actually, those 5 purposes were from social studies class. That isn’t my view, it is the view.

            That’s really the way the Government works when it’s constrained to what it is legally obligated and required to do. Everything else is an abuse of power. I love your generalization, “majority of people” would you care to provide proof, or are we just going off your opinion.

            That is also how the Justice system works, again your understand is completely and utterly based in the notion that the Government should provide cradle to grave support.

            The reason people can’t bring suit against large firms is because lobbyist have greased the pockets of the big government your long for. Power corrupt and absolute power corrupts completely.

            “And guys like you spend time trying to get rid of tort laws anyhow… right?”

            #4 Strawman argument, guess we are still adding those when you actually can’t debate your notions.

            Tort Law has been corrupted by ambulance chasers who seek outrageous damages for people who should’ve perished because they lacked common sense (meet Darwin).

            Not even remotely, I’m Libertarian and your a Progressive at best.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I didn’t provide BLS data from 2012, that’s when the article you provided was from. The BLS data I provided gave the median age (your original argument, without evidence) from this year.

            the data I provided showed the percentage of people in the age demographics who do have health conditions. A LOT of people in the workforce right now are not young and do have health conditions. What do you think they should do?

            “Antibody testing tells you who currently has an immune factor and can safely return to society without fear of infection or passing it on.”

            antibody testing won’t keep infected people out of the workforce.

            “Remdesivir had a clinical trial it’s clinical trial in 2009 for Hep C which is was developed. It’s currently being given with Emergency Therapeutic license (common knowledge). After it didn’t work with Hep C as hope, it was tried with Ebola in 2015, it again didn’t provide the results desired.

            It’s currently undergoing trials for COVID-19, patients are currently dying in those trials.”

            got a link for the deaths?

            “That’s really the way the Government works when it’s constrained to what it is legally obligated and required to do. Everything else is an abuse of power. I love your generalization, “majority of people” would you care to provide proof, or are we just going off your opinion.”

            The proof is in polls and confirmed by voting.

            “That is also how the Justice system works, again your understand is completely and utterly based in the notion that the Government should provide cradle to grave support.”

            Nope. We don’t keep people from killing themselves in their cars but we do try to keep them from killing others.

            We don’t stop people from smoking but we do try to keep them from harming others with their smoke.

            Do you see a theme here?

            “The reason people can’t bring suit against large firms is because lobbyist have greased the pockets of the big government your long for. Power corrupt and absolute power corrupts completely.”

            yadda yadda.. yep it’s all govt fault… sounds familiar.

            “And guys like you spend time trying to get rid of tort laws anyhow… right?”

            #4 Strawman argument, guess we are still adding those when you actually can’t debate your notions.

            Tort Law has been corrupted by ambulance chasers who seek outrageous damages for people who should’ve perished because they lacked common sense (meet Darwin).

            yep… so that’s why you try to keep people from suing… ??

            Not even remotely, I’m Libertarian and your a Progressive at best.

            I would say a FAUX Libertarian… as true ones do subscribe to the idea that you do not legally have the right to harm others…there are laws…against it – not just tort.

            True Libertarians totally reject the govt we have right now – correct? So do you consider yourself representative of most Americans left and right or just in opposition?

        2. MAdams Avatar

          Again, the data you provided was from 2012, not right now. It was published on July 31st,2012. It wasn’t your initial claim, and it’s not current.

          If someone is infected and introduced to someone who as antibodies, they cannot transmit the disease. That is the basis for herd immunity, that is the basis for vaccine theory.

          Umm if it’s being used in a clinical trial people are receiving a placebo and therefore expiring. I already provided you with the information on how a clinical study takes place (you obviously didn’t read it, as you assumed you already knew).

          https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-clinical-trial-shows-remdesivir-accelerates-recovery-advanced-covid-19

          Polls don’t prove anything and I’ll take that as you can’t provide evidence to validate your opinion (noted and accepted your surrender).

          If someone wishes to take a life, your nor any law is going to prevent it. The notion that you can stop it, is not based in reality.

          Smoking is a personal choice, the Government has no part in it. Your argument fails.

          “I’m from the Government and I’m here to help”

          I’ll take as you can’t defend your opinion again (noted and your surrender is accepted).

          So now you’re just copying and pasting my statements without addressing the flaws of your arguments?

          “yep… so that’s why you try to keep people from suing… ??” Strawman #5

          I’ve never sued anyone in my life, and I enjoy you again not addressing the issues (noted and surrender accepted).

          “I would say a FAUX Libertarian… as true ones do subscribe to the idea that you do not legally have the right to harm others…there are laws…against it – not just tort.”

          Not really, I’m a Libertarian registered and all. I’d say your understand of Libertarianism is about as much as your understanding clinical studies (that means zero).

          Laws that extended beyond criminal prosecution are not a concern for the Police, they are pet projects of politicians who than throw contempt at them for enforcing the very laws they drafted.

          Left and Right are an illusion for the uneducated (you in this instance). They are opposites sides of the very same corrupt coin, you should refrain from speaking on topics to which you have zero understanding or knowledge.

          True Libertarains reject overreaching Government, making capricious Laws governing peoples social behaviors.

          We don’t derive our rights from the Government, they merely function to protect them (they are and have been failing).

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            People who had health conditions in 2012 still do and others have gotten older also.. the data is not going to change much. You seem to think that now there will be LESS older folks with health conditions? Why?

            I validate my argument by who people do elect to office.
            The wacadoodle types do not get elected.

            the rest of your words are fairly pro forma for folks with your general views.

            They’re just out of touch with the realities of our system of government. The laws and the courts interpretation of them does not conform to your beliefs.

            You’re certainly entitled to them – free country – but not too many folks support them or vote that way.

        3. MAdams Avatar

          Than feel free to provide a current data set supporting your conclusion, however noting that wasn’t your initial argument. PS if you had bothered to read the BLS data it notes that median age in the workforce is 42.

          Trump was elected to office, that throws your theory out the window. We live in a world were most people vote for the person who will give them the most free stuff.

          I’ll take that as your complete surrender and in ability to validate anything you’ve stated with facts.

          How long have you been drawing a Federal Government Pension?

          “They’re just out of touch with the realities of our system of government. The laws and the courts interpretation of them does not conform to your beliefs.”

          Facts not in evidence, I hope you weren’t in Law Enforcement.

          Lots of “support and vote” the way I feel, they are just overshadowed by the freebie crowd (IE you).

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yeah it was. I pointed out that a fairly substantial number of workers were not young and did have health issues.

            That’s TRUE!

            Trump WAS voted into office but Trump is NOT your guy according to what you say you believe in for Govt. He’s the one that goes around saying “I’m in charge”… remember?

            It does not matter whether I draw a pension or not, guy so you’re not gonna get an answer on that one way or the other – it’s little more than you distracting…

            Most who claim they are Libertarians are not. It’s a label of convenience so they don’t have to admit they’re just Conservatives with a far right viewpoint. That’s where all that stuff about what the govt is allowed to be or not… that’s not Libertarian – it’s hard right …

            Real Libertarians don’t believe in a LOT of things that are in the current govt – that MOST people DO support – and are NOT generated by the “free market” (and never would) but by government.

            Libertarians are totally out of touch with the way the world really works… and so are folks on the fringes left and right for that matter.

        4. MAdams Avatar

          Again, it was not.

          “LarrytheG | May 14, 2020 at 3:20 pm |
          I think you are forgetting how many are actually in the workforce right now who are older and/or have health conditions.

          Most of the epidemiologists that come on TV , for instance, are in their 50, 60,70s. Anthony Fauci is 79, Deborah Birx is 64.”

          The BLS statistics say otherwise, as I stated the median age is 42.

          “That’s TRUE!
          Trump WAS voted into office but Trump is NOT your guy according to what you say you believe in for Govt. He’s the one that goes around saying “I’m in charge”… remember?”

          He isn’t “my guy” I didn’t vote for him, I was just proving your statement was fallacious.

          “It does not matter whether I draw a pension or not, guy so you’re not gonna get an answer on that one way or the other – it’s little more than you distracting…”

          Umm Larry that non-answer is in fact an answer. It is a resounding yes, and therefore your ability to discuss financial hardships forced upon otherwise vanishes. Your pension will come regardless, you don’t require employment for money. There is no fear that it will stop coming. It’s proof positive, you have zero understanding of the hardships that others are enduring so all your belly aching on the matter is moot.

          Most who claim they are Libertarians are not. It’s a label of convenience so they don’t have to admit they’re just Conservatives with a far right viewpoint. That’s where all that stuff about what the govt is allowed to be or not… that’s not Libertarian – it’s hard right …”

          Said by someone who doesn’t know or understand what being a Libertarian means. Almost bordering on an ad hom because I got under your skin.

          “Real Libertarians don’t believe in a LOT of things that are in the current govt – that MOST people DO support – and are NOT generated by the “free market” (and never would) but by government.”

          The funny thing is you make claims without evidence, they are clearly just opinion and you again know nothing of Libertarianism.

          The Government doesn’t generate anything, it’s a net taker. Your pension is paid for by my taxes.

          “Libertarians are totally out of touch with the way the world really works… and so are folks on the fringes left and right for that matter.”

          Says the progressive that believes the Government is the solution too all the problems and not the problem requiring solutions.

          \

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            https://www.bls.gov/emp/images/lf_aging.png

            People who work for decades earned their pensions.
            it’s not something they’re “given”, they put some
            of their income aside for their retirement.

            Libertarians are simply out of touch with the realities
            of the modern world and some of them are not really that to start with – they’re Conservatives masquerading as Libertarians.

            want a link? 😉

            We do not agree. I do respect your right to be who you
            are or want to be

            I’ll give you the last word – if you want but nothing further is to be gained with this discussion.. I pretty much know who you are and vice versa.

          2. MAdams Avatar

            Nice graphic, it doesn’t validate your statement but rather mine. You also didn’t provide the link where you got it.

            “LarrytheG | May 15, 2020 at 9:45 am |
            re: ” The needs of the few don’t outweigh the needs of the many.”

            Do you know how many? By my count , it’s 40% or more, people throughout the workforce.”

            A vast majority of Federal Government Pensions are provided to Government workers who provided no service outside of showing up to their offices, did zero to minimal work and step a few hours. The evidence of this statement is rooted in plethora of articles published about Federal Employee’s viewing adult films at work and not being fired for it.

            https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/federal-workers-continue-accessing-pornography-government-issued-computers/151803/

            To date the Federal Government employee’s 2 million people at full time status, that excludes the Postal Service. This is the poster child for waste, fraud and abuse. In 2013 the GAO found 162 area of redundancy across the Fed, that’s 162 areas where people who doing the same job.

            Most people who actually earn their pensions, don’t feel the need to obscure if they are drawing one or justify why they were entitled to it.

            “Libertarians are simply out of touch with the realities
            of the modern world and some of them are not really that to start with – they’re Conservatives masquerading as Libertarians.”

            Again, speaking on a topic to which you very clearly have zero knowledge.

            “I’ll give you the last word – if you want but nothing further is to be gained with this discussion.. I pretty much know who you are and vice versa.”

            There is nothing to be gained from this discussion, you’ve failed at every step to validate your assumptions and opinions with facts. You’re given to attempt to make this a right and left argument and somehow me being Libertarian is not real.

            You have zero knowledge of who I am, outside of the individual who pointed out your knowledge on a whole host of topics is relatively zero.

  15. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    We now have an experiment to determine if the “open it back up” crowd is right or “let’s go slow” crowd is right in terms of public health and COVID-19 occurrences and deaths. As soon as the Wisconsin Supreme Court handed down its ruling, the bars were crowded elbow-to-elbow with folks celebrating.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/14/wisconsin-bars-reopen-evers/

    1. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      Dick, you offer a false choice between extremes. The Wisconsin decision is what happens when the state law violates the state constitution. I’m in the “let the governor and the legislature decide together” crowd, which would be constitutional and then would not result in a Wisconsin-like reversal. The Governor could offer all of the guidelines he or she wished, but orders with the force of law would come in a constitutional process.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I defer to the Wisconsin Supreme Court in its interpretation of the Wisconsin constitution and law. My point is that the Wisconsin legislature, with Republicans in charge of both houses, has shown from the beginning of this Democratic governor’s term, that it will do whatever it can to limit his power. So, now the ball is in the legislature’s lap. It did not like the Governor’s plan. Now, until it comes up with a plan, Wisconsin has no statewide limits on crowd sizes or what can be open. It seems that some cities have imposed local closure orders. So, there is a hodgepodge and confusion. In a week or so, the experiment will yield results. Either the infection rate and hospitalization rate, followed by deaths, will increase or it won’t.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Because of the different ways that testing is done – and interpreted – as well as the lag time – we’re probably not going to get timely data nor as much clarity but I do wonder if it shows increases in virus – if it will change any minds since many of that view see it as an inevitable evolution towards more and more folks getting infected, recovering, and getting on with the rest of their lives. They’re not going to be any more supportive of restrictions than now – even if the virus expands….

      my 2 cents..

  16. VDoTyranny Avatar
    VDoTyranny

    Any good stakeholder committee has two purposes: 1) the optics of community involvement 2) giving a seat at the table for your political allies that otherwise wouldn’t have a right to be involved. The decision has already been made and deck stacked before the first meeting takes place.

    I don’t have a clue about who Bruce Thompson is, but I’d guess that he was invited to the table because of purpose 2. It sounds like he got his just desserts for playing politics

  17. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The problem with the option of having the gov work with the GA is that the GA would have to stay in session continuously. They would be functionally like a permanent committee – actually two committees if both the House and Senate.

    This has never been done before. It’s basically re-inventing government and it puts at risk – the ability to make a timely decision and introduces the possibility of gridlock.

    There is a reason why there are three separate parts of government and this idea basically undermines that concept. Heck, why not have the courts be on that committee also?

    What the Wisconsin court did – was undermine the concept of 3 separate parts of government by requiring the executive to be subordinate to the legislative function.

    Can anyone imagine the Federal Govt working this way?

    Imagine telling Trump that he could not issue an EO or similar without explicit approval of Congress…

    Where is the logic here?

    1. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      Larry, how many pandemics of the scale of COVID-19 pass this way in a decade, in a century? Hint: the last one was 1917. My paternal grandfather died in that one.

      Do you understand that it is ok if the law the governor wants passed is not acceptable to the GA?

      Do your understand that the absence of a law is not gridlock?

      Do you understand that under any constitutional law the Governor would be able to issue as many guidelines (see Trump, President) as he wishes?

      Do you understand that the governor, like the President, just would not be able to issue orders with the force of law without the concurrence of the legislative branch?

      Do you understand that President Trump has not issued a single executive order that forces the general public to do or not to do anything under penalty of law?

      So the federal government does work that way, do you understand that?

      Do you understand that the Wisconsin Supreme Court was only fulfilling its duty by declaring patently unconstitutional (Wisconsin constitution) gubernatorial orders void?

      Do you understand our republican form of government?

      The answer to all of those questions is clearly no, so why do you write more words in this space than all of the contributors put together?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Well, here’s what I DO understand.

        THIS is NOT in any law or Constitution.

        You guys are making this up as you go along.

        And YES – you are VIOLATING a basic tenet of the 3 parts of govt.

        no question.

        Ya’ll are so desperate that you’re willing to overturn the fundamental basis of our 3-part Government – that is supposed to be separate and equal on purpose with none of them subject to the others influence.

        This is how 3rd world countries work – they just shift things around to suit the circumstances.

        I can’t belive that folks like Bacon and others have no comment here.

        The Wisconsin Supreme Court just destroyed the 3- part system of govt and it’s got supporters! congrats!

        1. sherlockj Avatar
          sherlockj

          You continue to astonish.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Small pox, polio, measles, malaria, AIDS, Ebola, sars1, mers,… You just haven’t been looking only because good fortune has intervened.

        Bubbles have been forming on the bottom of the pan for a long time. They say a watched pot never boils. That’s false. A watched pot never boils over.

        Better to wrap your head around the idea that this is the FIRST of its size, not the only.

        It’s entirely possible Wisconsin’s Constitution could kill you and half of Richmond next time.

        1. sherlockj Avatar
          sherlockj

          Diseases all, Nancy, and each its own tragedy. But we are talking here about the declaration of state and national emergencies and the constitutional restrictions on executive action that exist in both the state and federal constitutions. To my knowledge, none of the diseases you list resulted in such declarations, but rather were dealt with by governments under regular order.
          Joint executive/legislative actions that restrict freedoms in an emergency are the most likely to survive constitutional challenge as they are on the firmest constitutional ground. They have a far better chance of being upheld than do executive actions alone.
          As a practical matter, a Governor with the advice and consent of her legislature has a better chance of making good decisions, or at least decisions that take into account the views of all, and thus are supported by the broadest number of people in her state. See as example the current Virginia black caucus complaints about Northam opening decisions, the revolt of members of the Pennsylvania legislature, and lawsuits by members of legislatures nationwide. Those grievances should have been aired in the legislatures. Then the plaintiffs would have very shaky legal and moral standing to sue over a vote they lost.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            https://sangamoncountyhistory.org/wp/?p=11818. Like I said, you really didn’t look

          2. @NativeNancy you further the case I’ve argued, that expectation and acceptance of pandemics, as inevitable as wildfires, would prepare us psychologically. Our surprised populace isn’t adapting well because it believes this is avoidable or fixable.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Jim – would you feel the same way if it was a GOP Governor and Dem legislature?

            I thought you guys were “Constitutionalists” – that you favored explicit laws and Constitutional amendments for things that are not legal/Constitutional now?

            I thought you guys did like like Courts that “legislated”, etc?

  18. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    This is from the US Supreme Court:

    “Separation of Powers in Action – U.S. v. Alvarez
    The U.S. Constitution establishes three separate but equal branches of government: the legislative branch (makes the law), the executive branch (enforces the law), and the judicial branch (interprets the law). The Framers structured the government in this way to prevent one branch of government from becoming too powerful, and to create a system of checks and balances.”

    This is fundamental to the creation of the US Constitution and our way of government that was done on purpose to not have a Monarchy type rule. It distinguished the US from other countries governance which concentrated power to a “king” type governance – the very thing some critics in Virginia accuse Northam of. Imagine if he and the Dems in the legislature got together to institute rules for Virginia…

    It was done on purpose to keep power from being concentrated in one part of govt.

    Conservatives might THINK they like what is going on right now in Wisconsin but consider what various configurations of legislative side and execute side in terms of political parties…

    be careful what you wish for.

    We’ve just damaged a fundamental precept of what our Constitution fully intended and created to be a 3 part governance with separation of powers and checks and balances.

    1. MAdams Avatar

      Each state has it’s own Constitution, the US Constitution wasn’t even in play in Wisconsin. The State Supreme Court by a vote of 4-3 determined that the Department of Health Services had reached beyond the power vested in the branch they reside.

    2. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      So the Supreme Court of the United States and the Supreme Court of Wisconsin agree and apparently so do you that under both state and U.S. constitutions all three branches have roles to play when freedoms guaranteed by those constitutions are restricted. That has been the basis for my writings on the subject. True conservatives don’t favor one person rule by decree anywhere, ever. The U.S. and Virginia constitutions do not permit it. That is at its core what conservatives are trying to conserve.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        re: “roles to play” –

        that’s a totally illegitimate explanation of the concept of separation of powers into equal branches with checks and balances.

        It was done on purpose by the founding fathers

        and now you just toss it aside and say that separation of powers is just “roles to play”.

        When the shoe goes on the other foot – and there is a GOP governor and a Dem legislature – then what?

        Finally – let’s assume that such a change is necessary because of the duration of a pandemic.

        What exactly are the “rules”? Does the legislature have to stay in session continuously? Who decides what the restrictions are and are not and when they get relaxed.

        So basically you have the legislature deciding this – the Gov has no power under this. He’s just a guy with one vote.

        1. sherlockj Avatar
          sherlockj

          Neither of us has any idea of what you are talking about here.

          1. sherlockj Avatar
            sherlockj

            The reason I don’t understand is because the entire discussion over these weeks started with my insistence that the state legislatures play their constitutional roles in an emergency and you and others here denying the necessity of that.

            Legislatures must ensure that no law:
            1. grants to the executive power to declare an emergency and, based solely on that declaration,
            2. further grants powers to the executive to issue executive orders that threaten guaranteed freedoms when such executive orders are both unexamined by the legislature and exceed his or her powers granted in the constitutions of the individual states or the United States.

            Virginia’s law, Code of Virginia § 44-146.17. Powers and duties of Governor, fails those test, and is on its face unconstitutional.

            The first time it is properly tested in state and federal courts, it will be found unconstitutional, exactly as were the actions of the executive branch under a similar law and a similar constitution in Wisconsin.

            So I think, if I read your latest posts properly, we are now in total agreement.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Legislatures must ensure that no law:
            1. grants to the executive power to declare an emergency and, based solely on that declaration,
            2. further grants powers to the executive to issue executive orders that threaten guaranteed freedoms when such executive orders are both unexamined by the legislature and exceed his or her powers granted in the constitutions of the individual states or the United States.”

            who says that, you? or other Conservatives?

            There is a PROCESS to add new law for things like this and/or Constitutional amendments.

            It’s NOT the function of courts to legislate which is what Wisconsin is doing.

            What exactly should be the terms of Executive power with regard to a pandemic?

            When the courts says that the “duration” of executive power requires the legislature to act – that would be correct.

            But when they REQUIRE the legislature to ACT , AND they deny the Governor the power that is currently in law and Constitution – that’s not their role. THey’re engaging in the very activism and legislating that Conservatives have traditionally railed against. NOW, they just ignore what they have said in the past and flipflop 180 degrees because it suits them politically.

            I’m actually shocked that you guys that claim to be Conservatives don’t seem to care about this.

            The shoe will go on the other foot in the future and I bet you won’t be supporting it then.

  19. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Nancy, Sagamon County Illinois (Springfield) in 1949. Well done.

  20. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    “The U.S. and Virginia constitutions do not permit it. That is at its core what conservatives are trying to conserve.”

    Some tyrant states have the world’s most liberal Constitutions and bills of Rights. Often tyrants, after they usurp power, cross every T and dot every i of such eloquent documents of freedom, democracy and representative government, before they impose blanket regimes of terror, casting their citizens into sullen silence living in constant states of fear.

    Central and South America plus Cuba, the South Hemisphere, and much of Asia and the Middle East is full of such regimes. If citizens raise their voices in dissent there, they quite often simply disappear. This is default state of all governments.

    Syria also is an excellent model today. Assad ruthlessly kills off all his political opponents. Having achieved that end, he goes methodically about killing off his friends. It’s a time proven tactic, very effective. Assad is copying his role model. Stalin’s tactics before Germany’s surprise invasion of Stalin’s evil empire on its western flank through Poland, followed by the likes of Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Mobutu Sese Seko, Robert Mugabe, and Idi Amin. No one could follow these living tyrants into power, save by brute force and bloodshed.

    Why must tyrants deploy these circular firing squads? Because they project their own evil onto others, so their paranoia grows to overwhelm them, the illusion and fact that they know they can’t relinquish power and survive and thrive among their useful idiots (that always must include their nation’s press and media), and abject serfs.

    America now has entered this phase of default government. America has a very long way to go, but things surely now have started when the Obama Administration, using the instruments of a police state, the FBI, began plotting the overthrow of their duly elected successor within days of his election in Nov. 2016.

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