Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

What’s With All the TJ Haters?

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by

James A. Bacon
in ,

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I was pleased to have an opportunity this morning to discuss the swelling anti-Thomas Jefferson sentiment in contemporary culture on The John Reid show on WRVA. In particular, I criticized the University of Virginia Alumni Association for turning down an ad from The Jefferson Council (on whose board I serve) that defended Jefferson’s reputation for opposing slavery and questioned the widespread assertion that he raped his slave Sally Hemings. Listen to the interview here. Thanks for giving us a voice, John!

While I’m at it, let me put in a plug for John’s morning broadcast. John is a critical player in Virginia’s small but vocal conservative media ecosystem. Click here to view the list of news makers he has interviewed in the past few days.

Update: Charlottesville talk radio host Joe Thomas interviewed Jefferson Council board member Buddy Weber on the controversy. Lissten to the podcast here.

Update: Shaun Kenney at The Republican Standard uses the ad controversy as a jumping-off point to broader discussion of how Thomas Jefferson and other historical figures are treated today. Kenney leans to the view that Jefferson was the father of Hemings’ children, but he does not treat the interpretation as settled dogma.

Writes Kenney: “Much as there is no such thing as unquestionable science, there should be no such thing as unquestionable history. Reproducibility and replication based on record and evidence remains the gold standard.”

— JAB

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62 responses to “What’s With All the TJ Haters?”

  1. James McCarthy Avatar
    James McCarthy

    IMO, the miniscule number of TJ haters is no more than an excuse to create controversy where none truly exists. Any liaison with Ms. Hemmings should simply be viewed as demonstrating that the very woke TJ was human. Rape fantasies alleged by some are simply that – fantasies. Let TJ and his legacy breathe and encourage pundits to do the same. Fighting against a QAnon type conspiracy theory only gives it fuel. Save the dudgeon for more critical and definable debates.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      No, no, no, the feet of clay cannot be real, to mention them breaks the spell. Only the shining myth has power. Nobody involved in writing that ad text expected it to be accepted. Rejection was the goal and now they have their fun.

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      No, no, no, the feet of clay cannot be real, to mention them breaks the spell. Only the shining myth has power. Nobody involved in writing that ad text expected it to be accepted. Rejection was the goal and now they have their fun.

    3. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      The questions of rape are legitimate by today’s standards. If Jefferson were the father of Hemmings’ children he would have impregnated her when she was 14 as I recall. Additionally, it’s hard to imagine consent being available when the woman at hand is considered the property of the man.

      Whether these were legitimate questions in the late 1700s / early 1800s is beyond me.

      1. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        As a moral standard not legal, rape has been condemned for centuries. The Latin root is “rapere” to seize. Consent is a male fiction to excuse the moral crime. “What were you wearing when the alleged attack occurred?” asks defense counsel of the alleged victim.

    4. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      No, no, no, the feet of clay cannot be real, to mention them breaks the spell. Only the shining myth has power. Nobody involved in writing that ad text expected it to be accepted. Rejection was the goal and now they have their fun.

      Jefferson was highly controversial in his day, barely won election. A revolutionary who lifted no musket. Plenty hated him even then. The rumors about Hemings were contemporary, not some modern discovery. If Jefferson didn’t rape slaves, plenty of slave owners did. Slavery itself is the sin they seek to absolve him (and their own ancestors) of, and it cannot be done. Just like those who seek to erase Jefferson are also wasting their time, since his legacy will indeed survive. Slavery was baked into the economy of the day, the last vestiges of an economic exploitation as old as the cave dwellers. Almost none of the founders were free of its taint, but it is a fair question which of them recognized the stink. And for us in the Glass Half Full Contingent, it is worth celebrating how quickly it fell away in so much of the United States and how containing and eradicating it became the dominant issue for two generations. The wages of that sin was indeed death on a Biblical scale.

      1. JayCee Avatar
        JayCee

        JB, we need a Like button here. ^

  2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    Funny how the President born in Staunton, Virginia is excluded from the purge list.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Or the one born in Kenya? Wilson has fewer things named for him, and his racial position better known. Once TJ’s history is more accurately portrayed, Wilson will be easy.

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        I do give credit to the District of Columbia that renamed Wilson HS Jackson-Reed HS. But the last time I looked, the WW Bridge still goes through D.C., MD and VA.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Wait! How can a bridge, grounded on two shores, go through three areas? Surely, the third is only water?

          But, look on the bright side. The view from the bridge is of the waste treatment plant, so maybe leaving it named for WW is by intent?

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            I felt they made an egregious error when they added Reagan’s name to National Airport. It would have been much more appropriate to affix his name to the Blue Plains sewage treatment plant on the other side of the Potomac.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            See “Operation Argon” if you need to understand the genius of the Reagan administration. Forget Iran-Contra.

        2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          I remember when the original bridge was opened. It was named for Wilson to celebrate the 100th anniversary of his birth. When I-95, originally planned to be routed directly through the middle of D.C., was built, the bridge carried 3x its design capacity, and literally started falling apart. It was too narrow to carry I-95 traffic and was under continuous repair until completely re-decked in the 80’s, then finally replaced by 2008.

          The backups at the approaches to the original bridge were the stuff of legend, as were the automobiles and trucks damaged by the holes in the pavement. One, as I remember, was deemed big enough to swallow a small car until repaired.

          Mr. Wilson was a nasty man, but perhaps got his true deserts in the fact that his name, in reference to the bridge, was preceded by an epithet when mouthed by millions of drivers in the D.C. area over 40+ years.

  3. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Coulda been worse. There could have been telephones in 1803…
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RepKinzinger/statuses/1544327335830327301

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Please do not display N. Pelosi’s bikini picture from the beach this weekend. That would be a true new low.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Those photos are the result of tracking cookies from your browsing and search history… don’t Goggle “Pelosi in a bikini” and Bacon’s ad machine won’t show them to you. My suggestion: hot knitting needles and a Braille keyboard… just to be on the safe side. 😉

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          Bacon’s ad machine gives me deals on VW engine parts, deals on sneakers which I don’t wear, and solicitations from Dr. Franklin Graham. What a weird confluence!

          1. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            I’ve gotten the Franklin Graham ad a couple of times – no idea why.

            I also get Audi ads, discount flashlight ads, and ads for expensive, high-end, wristwatches. And deals on antique motorcycle parts.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Wait. Aren’t VW engines and sneakers the same thing? And, prayer is for British Leyland.

            My new car has a button that says, “Push To Start”. Reminds me of my ’64 VW.

  4. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    I admire TJ. It’s those who would make him a saint with whom I have a complaint.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Well apparently if you don’t want to make him a saint, you’re a “hater”.

      sounds about right … here in BR land…..

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        One should meet their heroes. Then they can get over them, and live their own lives.

    2. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Do you think TJ cares about his haters and lovers, er, defenders, that is?

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Do I think Jesus got over being crucified?

        The greatest humor is that the most powerful man in the government is black and married to woman who should be in a straight jacket. He has spent 30 years writing concurring opinions that will form precedent law no matter how crazy they are.

  5. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    The only potentially incorrect assertion IMPLIED by your ad is that Jefferson and Hemmings did not have children together. In fairness, you don’t directly say that but you do imply it.

    The DNA evidence seems pretty clear to me. They had children together.

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      The DNA evidence seems conclusive? How?
      All they have is male Jefferson DNA. There were many male potential fathers.
      And this whole issue is a smokescreen. I don’t care if he fathered all six children (even though the scholars’ report concluded otherwise). She had human beings created in the image of God. Are all children born of inter-racial couples to believe something is “wrong” with them? The only point of the whole thing is to use it to destroy Jefferson. They don’t care. It is all about using race for power. Myra Anderson is being used. Like the Code Pink lady and other Dem props…
      Generally, the half white children were more likely to be freed, and many of the prominent “black” families came from such births. You see this all the time on the Finding Your Roots show by Henry Louis Gates.
      All people are 99.9% the same in DNA. Skin color is meaningful only to people who wish to use race to divide and inflame division to gain power. Truly evil.
      The issue remains – Jefferson was a giant in world history. Period. Don’t fall for the false argument.
      If they succeed in destroying TJ, Washington is next.

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        This is an excellent summary of opinions both in support of Jefferson being the father of Sally Hemmings’ children and against that conclusion. For me, the mix of historical evidence and DNA evidence point to the conclusion that it is highly likely that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemmings’ children.

        https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/science-magazines/has-dna-testing-proved-thomasjefferson-fathered-least-one-child-one-his-slaves-sally-hemings

        I don’t particularly care if he was. However, in the advertisement that the Jefferson Council tried to have placed in the UVa Alumni Association Newsletter, the only real argument of a lack of veracity, in my opinion, is the statement about Sally Hemmings’ offspring.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        About as convincing as the argument that Mason, not TJ, wrote the DoI.

  6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    The small decisions made in life set forth a chain of events that one cannot escape. What if Jefferson had not married his third cousin? Sally would have never been part of the inheritance from TJ’s father-in-law. What if James T. Callender had declined the role of Jefferson’s hatchet man of dirty political tricks. He might not have drowned, in 1803, face down in three feet of James River water. Allegedly in a drunken stupor.
    Today, thousands pass by the grave of Thomas Jefferson. Nobody visits Callender’s grave. Unmarked at St. John’s Church in Richmond. The site of Patrick Henry’s famous speech.
    Shakespeare would have had a field day with American history.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c0630e239e7bc149f67adcac90e015c317dff7d65850429897a15a7789218517.jpg

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      And among more crucial “what ifs” how better off we would be if Copernicus’s theory were not condemned?

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Already has. “This above all,— to thine own self be true, …” belies its source and context no less than “… that all men are created equal…” does its.

  7. kls Avatar
    kls

    The ONLY old white men the left is willing to listen to and admire were those who were in the majority of the Roe v Wade decision.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      I hate to break it to you, but speaking as an old white man, don’t expect many to continue to listen and expect less admiration period. 🙂

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Admiration? Like this?
        https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmobile.twitter.com%2FRepKinzinger%2Fstatuses%2F1544327335830327301%3Am9pt88SXblIoHnz0hRkM2UjjXHo&cuid=6632217

        BTW, a few years ago I received a bill from VNG that said something akin to “Reduce paperwork and protect your privacy. Sign up for e-billing.” I says to myself, “Self, ya know that makes sense,” and signed up.

        So now, once a month, regular as a bill from a utility, I receive mail from VNG that says, “Because you receive electronic bills, we are mailing you this important information…” in an envelope stuff with all the trash that used to accompany the bill.

        They just have to spend money needlessly.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Admiration? Like this?
        https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmobile.twitter.com%2FRepKinzinger%2Fstatuses%2F1544327335830327301%3Am9pt88SXblIoHnz0hRkM2UjjXHo&cuid=6632217

        BTW, a few years ago I received a bill from VNG that said something akin to “Reduce paperwork and protect your privacy. Sign up for e-billing.” I says to myself, “Self, ya know that makes sense,” and signed up.

        So now, once a month, regular as a bill from a utility, I receive mail from VNG that says, “Because you receive electronic bills, we are mailing you this important information…” in an envelope stuff with all the trash that used to accompany the bill.

        They just have to spend money needlessly.

    2. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      I assume you mean the original Roe v Wade decision. As far as I know, they are all dead.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        And Republicans.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Not me. They were Republicans…

  8. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    I have no idea whether Jefferson was the father of one or more of Hemings’ children. I have not studied the issue closely enough to have an informed opinion. My beef is that the alumni association has, in effect, decided that the “history is settled” and no longer a permissible topic of debate. Any student of history knows that the history is rarely settled. People are always coming up with new evidence or new perspectives to review the old evidence. Once anyone declares the science/history/anything else is settled yet they are too scared to tolerate dissent, I immediately ask, what are they hiding?

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      IMO, disengaging from a debate which may never be settled or resolved is the better course. I do think the ad denial for whatever reason was petty.

  9. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    The reaction against Jefferson is, itself, a reaction to the veneration paid to him. The man wrote inspiring words that have endured over the centuries about all men being created equal and endowed with inalienable rights, which included liberty. Yet, he owned human beings. They did not have liberty.

    The defenders of Jefferson point out that he opposed slavery and even drafted legislation to permit the freeing of slaves. But, that is all he did, write words. When it came to doing something about slavery, he was all talk and no action.

    The defenders of Jefferson will no doubt object that freeing slaves was not legal or practicable. The Virginia General Assembly enacted a law in 1782 providing for the “manumission of slaves”. A good number of slave holders proceeded to free their slaves after that. In 1782, there were 3,000 free Blacks in Virginia. Only eight years later, in 1790, there were 12,866 former slaves living in freedom. One example of those freeing their slaves was the Quaker John Pleasants III of Henrico, who provided in his will for manumission as soon as it was legal. His son, Robert Pleasants fulfilled his father’s wishes after the passage of the law, with the result that hundreds of Blacks were freed.

    In 1791, Robert Carter III filed a Deed of Gift in Westmoreland County providing for the gradual freeing of his 452 slaves. Carter was the grandson of Robert “King” Carter, one of the richest and powerful Virginians of his day. The grandson owned 65,000 acres and hundreds of slaves. His Deed of Gift provided for the gradual freeing, mostly in order to stay within the parameters of Virginia law. Upon his death, his heirs challenged the Deed of Gift, but the Virginia Supreme Court upheld it. https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/deed-of-gift-robert-carter-iiis/

    In summary, Jefferson could have followed suit and lived up to his soaring rhetoric and freed his slaves. But, he did not.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Excellent insight to inform the red herring debate.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        I dunno. I don’t think it’s a red herring debate. It’s something different. Let’s put it this way, their constant fawning over Jefferson is beginning to stir even MY long controlled homophobia.

        These BR headlines and stories are screamin out, “I Want To Have Thomas Jefferson’s Gay Love Baby!” Also, sort of explains their attitude toward the Sally Hemmings affair — rank jealousy.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Did you watch “Finding Your Roots” tonight?

      It’s complicated. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMV2PBFB2P4

      Here is Joe Madison discussing his discovering that his 3rd great grandfather fought for the South in Gettysburg, and that his 6th great grandfather fought as a Loyalist in SC, was captured and hanged.

      BTW, as he notes in episode, he’s eligible to join the Sons of the Confederacy.

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        I have an old VHS covering reunions of the Grand Army of the Republic and the United Confederate Veterans. One of the latter was a black man who had been a manservant to a white Confederate officer. Apparently, his “service qualified him for membership in the UCV. Imagine if they showed that tape in high school.

      2. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        BTW, as he notes in episode, he’s eligible to join the Sons of the Confederacy.

        He should definitely do that – and make a TV show about it.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          That’s what he laughed about doing — from civil rights activist to SotC…

          I find that show, “Finding Your Roots” fascinating probably because, like Topsy, “I just grewed,” and have no such roots. Virtually unknown to me. Adopted.

    3. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
      f/k/a_tmtfairfax

      Is a Quaker’s actions against slavery a mixing of Church & State?

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Well, it does say “We hold these truths to be self-evident,…” not “I hold…” If you signed a contract that began “We agree,..” I’d bet any lawyer worth his salt could get you out of it.

      It would be best all around to divorce the words from the life of the man who wrote them. On their own, they easily carry the weight of a national philosophy. When the author, or any of the signers, is meaused by these words, do they all not come up short?

    5. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Jefferson is venerated largely by the plantation elite. Watching the members of the General Assembly whisper Jefferson’s name, always with Mr. attached, is a sight to behold.

      For those of us born and reared outside the plantation elite, General Washington was far more consequential than Mr. Jefferson.

    6. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
      YellowstoneBound1948

      Jefferson was heavily burdened by a mountain of debt. He spent the last years of his life living in genteel poverty. The idea that he would free what (human) capital he held is not realistic.

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Simple solution — exhumation, and pull a tooth. Besides, then some lucky TJ cultist could buy a relic that’s waaaaay better than a piece of the cross.

  11. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The thing about TJ and Hemings is more about what the truth was than the behavior IMO and in my mind, it pales in comparison to other issues. It’s much ado about mostly nothing – both sides of it.

    Much bigger issues was who he did not think was deserving of his “all men created equal” words . Not black folks and not women, not Native Americans. This is fundamental to what most of us think America was about. But it’s simply not true that founding fathers like TJ believed all people should be ‘equal”.

    To me , this is a big efffing deal and the truth must be told and doing so is not at all about “hate” – it’s about honesty about our history.

    Yes, he thought slavery was abhorrent but he also thought black folks were inferior and wanted them sent back to Africa once emancipated. He did not want them living side by side with white folks in America. He did not consider them “equal” at all.

    so we’ve made up history, created a myth, and we call folks who insist on the truth about history – “haters” and apparently we don’t give a rat’s behind how black folks feel about this.

    To it’s credit, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, not only saved and preserved Monticello, but also his papers, and his history, AND the whole truth about him, good, bad and ugly.

    He was and will remain a great man, a leader, a visionary, a Founding Father, but no saint and really not someone who really did believe all men were created equal.

    Forget Hemings – that’s about a man and a women and who knows who they really were in their relationship.

    The bigger picture is how Jefferson felt about an entire race of people and whether they were Americans and “equal”.

    I don’t hate TJ at all. What I hate is revised history that is false.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Well said.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Or even the history that starts that way and just gets worse.

      Stuff happens, at the wrong time, or the wrong place, or for the wrong reason; it is the job of the historian to correct this.

      “When the legend becomes the fact, print the legend.”

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      It’s more personal than that, Larry. If they are forced to consider that TJ’s behavior with Sally Hemmings, a woman he owned, and over whom he held great sway, was true and possibly less than moral, then they’ll be forced to give Joe Morrisey slack.

      Just because he was a hypocrite doesn’t mean that what he said shouldn’t be true.

    4. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Even I will upvote that comment, Larry.

    5. Randy Huffman Avatar
      Randy Huffman

      I found the attached on Monticello’s web site, which supports what you say. I don’t disagree with many of your conclusions, and would not call TJ a saint.

      https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/#footnote16_rubhs7m

      Essentially my view is we should not judge people from the past using todays standards. Unless anyone with a lot more history background knows any different, and putting aside the issue of slavery or even women, I believe that the standard of all men being created equal was both revolutionary and radical. It was contrary to just about how any other nation viewed their general population. The population was to be ruled, not given an equal voice. This concept not only became the bedrock of who we are, and how we evolved over time, but was a magnet that drew in millions of immigrants looking for opportunity and freedom, even to this day.

      So I put our founding fathers up on a pedestal and refuse to tear them down. They created a platform and structure for the greatest country this planet has ever had.

    6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Do we get to tell the truth about Hunter next?

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        Or Abraham Lincoln? Or, as you alluded to earlier, Woodrow Wilson?

  12. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “Thanks for giving us a voice, John!”

    Oh that’s rich…!! 🙄

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