Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

What Happens When You Turn Over Your Electric Grid to Environmentalists and Bureaucrats

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

Once upon a time, Germany had one of the most stable and reliable electric grids in the world. Then the Germans committed themselves to green energy from variable energy sources, wind and solar. The result? From an article on the NoTricksZone blog (which draws upon reporting from Tichys Einblick):

The country now finds itself on the verge of blackouts due to grid instability, has the highest electricity prices in the world, relies more on imports and is not even close to meeting its emissions targets. Germany’s rickety and moody power grid now threatens the entire European power grid stability.

A failure on all fronts. How’s this for irony: To deal with power shortages, the German economics minister has presented a draft law to temporarily cut off charging power to e-cars! Increasingly, the Germans are exploring strategies for “peak smoothing,” which is another way of saying “targeted blackouts.” Heat pumps, electric heaters and wall-boxes, i.e. charging stations for e-mobiles, could be shut off when needed to stabilize the grid.

You’ll have to pry my gas-fired heat and internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.

— JAB

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182 responses to “What Happens When You Turn Over Your Electric Grid to Environmentalists and Bureaucrats”

  1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    ‘”peak smoothing,” which is another way of saying “targeted blackouts.”‘

    Nope these are not the same thing. Maybe go do some additional research on the topic.

    “Heat pumps, electric heaters and wall-boxes, i.e. charging stations for e-mobiles, could be shut off when needed to stabilize the grid.”

    I recall a certain unit the (then) Virginia Power mounted on my hot water heater that could remotely shut it down during periods of peak demand. This is absolutely nothing new. Really, maybe give renewable energy a chance. I simply can’t comprehend why BR is so against any move away from fossil fuels.

    1. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
      UpAgnstTheWall

      Because – to paraphrase Mel Brooks – for conservatives tragedy is when they’re temporarily inconvenienced, comedy is when the only habitable planet we have heats up as previously captured carbon is rereleased into the atmosphere and makes lives miserable for billions of people.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Yep. We have one of those water heaters as well as a HVAC thermostate that the electric company can “trim” when needed. We can always counter it but if we are not there, then it takes effect (unless we remotely counter it).

      This is part of a more modern grid that reduces consumption when it is not needed. It’s not a “fail”, it’s a win.

      1. Publius Avatar
        Publius

        So when VEPCO turns off your water heater without your knowledge, that cold shower is a win!
        I had those things where they could turn off your power temporarily for a monthly credit. They caused my heat pumps to Fritz and ended up costing me money.
        I’m for nuclear, but the greenies seem to oppose that because…it takes away their rationale to control all life because of “climate change?”

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          NOVEC has the same thing. I don’t know any details about VEPCO’s plan (which apparently doesn’t exist anymore) but NOVEC’s plan is as follows.

          If you allow them to install a load management switch on your water heater they will:

          (1) Only cut the power to your water heater during periods of peak load for up to 15 minutes. This only happens in the afternoon in the summer, a few times per summer. It’s not likely that you’ll be taking a shower at that time. If you are, it’s not likely that 15 minutes of power-off is going to reduce the water temp to the point you’ll actually notice it. (Unless, perhaps, your shower flows 10GPM?)

          (2)They will replace fuses, thermostats, and heating elements on your electric water heater for free.

          1. Publius Avatar
            Publius

            The VEPCO (yes, real name Dominion Energy, but this is Richmond and everything must be called by its old name) program was a $4 a month credit and it was discontinued a number of years ago – whether from complaints from the equipment being harmed or from not saving enough money for VEPCO, I don’t know.
            I know VEPCO owns the General Assembly, but at the same time, has to comply with all the ridiculous things imposed. For me, the energy has been stable and the dividends keep coming (and the cut was overdue – they had raised way too fast at an unsustainable level). So if they stick to their knitting on those two things, I can complain about other things…and there are plenty!

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          it’s a voluntary program and they do tell you when they do it and they don’t do it long enough so your shower goes cold and oftentimes it’s at times when folks don’t bath!

          Oftentimes it happens when you’re not even at home or if you are – at times most do not take showers.

          Conservatives say they are for “free market” but they’d change their mind right quick if NA3 was gonna cost 13 billion.

          Even DOminion says it’s a no go.

    3. Top-GUN Avatar
      Top-GUN

      The troll is telling half a story,,, yes they put a cutoff switch on his HVAC, because he VOLUNTEERED to have it installed, and got a slight break on his bill for signing up…
      In other words, it was Voluntary on his part, not mandated….

      1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
        Eric the Half a Troll

        It’s the same program JAB is bitching about. They can not selectively shut off your HVAC or water heater without your consent. They can only shut off your power and even JAB is not suggesting that is in the offing.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          So why did you allow them access to your home?

          Power companies property ends where the feed enters your house, you had to admit them access and opt-in for the program to which you’re complaining.

          1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            I am not complaining about the program. JAB is and he is painting it as non-voluntary.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | January 20, 2021 at 10:11 pm |
            I am not complaining about the program. JAB is and he is painting it as non-voluntary.”

            He is not, the German program is not voluntary. Much like the rolling black outs in South Africa they are to ease the peak load. They are mandatory and you don’t have a choice. A program where you signed up to save a few bucks at an inconvenience is your choice.

    4. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      If people enter into a voluntary contract and prepare themselves for interruptions in service, then that’s their business. If government imposes an interruption of service and people are NOT prepared, that’s quite another.

      Can you understand the difference?

      1. Acbar Avatar
        Acbar

        It’s not that simple. The government doesn’t impose a blackout; the grid operator does, simply in order to keep the lights on for the rest of the customers. It’s driven by the reality that you’ve run out of alternatives. An involuntary interruption is always the last resort.

        Where the government should be faulted is making or approving the policy decisions that resulted in inadequate generation to meet the load. That doesn’t happen overnight. The poor planning that results in such a vulnerability takes years to do its damage, is highly visible and politically deliberate, and when reality finally strikes, takes years to fix.

    5. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “I recall a certain unit the (then) Virginia Power mounted on my hot water heater that could remotely shut it down during periods of peak demand.”

      And you allowed them to install it – that makes it voluntary. That also makes it quite a bit different from the power company unilaterally shutting down your electrical systems. While shutting off someone’s electricity may not be literally the same as a “blackout” it is certainly functionally the same.

  2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Yes, but we all remember what happened when they were efficient.

    BTW, German Engineering is greatly overblown. 200 moving parts when 10 will do.

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      Yes, German Engineering sure is.

      For example, 8 fuel injectors and a throttle body when just one carburetor would do the job.

      4 overhead cams when just a single cam-in-block would do.

      And so on.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You think those are German innovations? Either way, give me a chain, no belts.

        OHC — the reason the Brits don’t make computers. Can’t figure out how to make them leak oil.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          BMW do use chains for timing, the rub is the plastic guides they use for that chain crap out before the rest of the car and grenade it.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Most of those “cool engines” that used to use timing belts have returned to chains again. The tensioners with the nylon guides should be the next to go, but those that rely on oil pressure will continue to be used and that wonderful “bbrraaap” on start is here to stay.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            A Wankel is a German engine devoid of chains and belts all together.

          3. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            “that wonderful “bbrraaap” on start is here to stay”

            That’s the result of using an oil filter with a bad/poor/lousy anti-drainback valve.

        2. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          “the reason the Brits don’t make computers. Can’t figure out how to make them leak oil.”

          Excellent!

          The Brits are also well know for their “fine” motorcycle and sportscar electrical systems. You haven’t truly lived until you’ve pitched a 1970 Triumph Bonneville into a high-speed declining-radius turn, at night, only to have the headlight dim to about one candle-power because the tolerance on the 12 volt “Lucas Electric” volt voltage regulator is something like +/-12 volts.

          There’s a very good reason that Lucas was nicknamed “the prince of darkness”.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The Brits and namely RR can’t figure out how to make a car that doesn’t leak mineral oil and therefore have your shocks and brakes go out at the same time.

            My father had a Bonneville 500, I’ll have to ask him about the headlight.

      2. V N Avatar
        V N

        And you can work on the bore of a carburetor … I did that to a 2 wheeler 🙂

  3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Well, there’s always Romania… again.

  4. Wahoo Avatar
    Wahoo

    Bring on Nuke power! ( And watch Larry G. pee the bed)

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      And WAHOO, if you actually read here, I SUPPORT Nuclear power , as well as natural gas but I also support modern nukes and use of gas only when we must. So pee on yourself guy!

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      It’s true, Larry does support nuclear power.

      I am probably as critical of his leftist tendencies as anyone here, but I’ve got to support him on that one.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        and besides that’s a separate issue with respect to whether I pee in bed or on myself even when Jim writes nutty stuff from climate skeptics and claims it to be “news”.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          I thought you only peed on the linoleum in the kitchen and then only when you were overexcited about being let outside…

          🙂

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            only in theory……..

  5. V N Avatar
    V N

    and I thought Hashmi’s bill today was something else. Oh boy Jim, you want fodder for articles, go through and see today’s Senate Judiciary video and Hashmi’s bill.

    They’re even recommending banning, thanks to NON Virginian voices and money, plastic guns. Yes sir!!! In part thanks to at least ONE Republican.

  6. V N Avatar
    V N

    and I thought Hashmi’s bill today was something else. Oh boy Jim, you want fodder for articles, go through and see today’s Senate Judiciary video and Hashmi’s bill.

    They’re even recommending banning, thanks to NON Virginian voices and money, plastic guns. Yes sir!!! In part thanks to at least ONE Republican.

  7. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    “You’ll have to pry my gas-fired heat and internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.” Next Tuesday work for you? I think next Tuesday they work our neighborhood…..

  8. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    “You’ll have to pry my gas-fired heat and internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.” Next Tuesday work for you? I think next Tuesday they work our neighborhood…..

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    so this is why BR will never really be considered a “news” site!

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      …and why you need to stand by for something different. If they do what I’ve asked, no comments. 🙁

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        ???

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      WHAT is why BR will never really be considered a “news” site?

      You have offered NO substantive refutation of the claims made regarding Germany’s power grid. In fact, you have not even offered a NON-substantive refutation. All you did was make a condescending remark about the person who wrote the article.

      If you have evidence that the claims are not factual then please present it. I doubt that you have such evidence, but I’ll read it if you post it here.

      I think the main problem with this article is that it discusses some potentially unpleasant consequences of rushing headlong into “green” energy, and these consequences do not comport with your own comfortable little personal biases and opinions on the matter.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Why – because they post stuff generated by climate skeptics who attack renewables. Not exactly objective “news” but BR can’t help itself it seems and then pouts about others not regarding it as “news”.

        It’s basically a right-wing site pretending to be objective but many of it’s posts actually come from right-wing sources that are clearly biased.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          And what about the Post, Times, NBC, CNN? No, they’re not left-wing.

          And riddle me this. Biden rejoins the Paris accord because he’s worried about climate change. But at the same time, he proposes a immigration bill that would allow the “newly legalized” to bring in their relatives. Won’t these folks be certain to create a much larger carbon footprint in the U.S. than in Central America?

          Glad to see Trump gone, but Biden is likely playing with an IQ of around 80, if that.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Still, a +10 delta.

  10. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    so this is why BR will never really be considered a “news” site!

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      …and why you need to stand by for something different. If they do what I’ve asked, no comments. 🙁

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      WHAT is why BR will never really be considered a “news” site?

      You have offered NO substantive refutation of the claims made regarding Germany’s power grid. In fact, you have not even offered a NON-substantive refutation. All you did was make a condescending remark about the person who wrote the article.

      If you have evidence that the claims are not factual then please present it. I doubt that you have such evidence, but I’ll read it if you post it here.

      I think the main problem with this article is that it discusses some potentially unpleasant consequences of rushing headlong into “green” energy, and these consequences do not comport with your own comfortable little personal biases and opinions on the matter.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Why – because they post stuff generated by climate skeptics who attack renewables. Not exactly objective “news” but BR can’t help itself it seems and then pouts about others not regarding it as “news”.

        It’s basically a right-wing site pretending to be objective but many of it’s posts actually come from right-wing sources that are clearly biased.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          And what about the Post, Times, NBC, CNN? No, they’re not left-wing.

          And riddle me this. Biden rejoins the Paris accord because he’s worried about climate change. But at the same time, he proposes a immigration bill that would allow the “newly legalized” to bring in their relatives. Won’t these folks be certain to create a much larger carbon footprint in the U.S. than in Central America?

          Glad to see Trump gone, but Biden is likely playing with an IQ of around 80, if that.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Still, a +10 delta.

  11. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    I am a little out-of-date, but I think Germany is relying on coal too. Now when Germany talks coal they are doing high efficiency stuff (that our utilities hate) so it is not quite as bad as when we do coal, and could be considered sustainable. But the implication would be the “fossil fuels as instant death to all humanity ” movement is not as strong there. That’s a USA extremist thing. And I am pretty sure our Va. Dems have been honest about putting the extremists in charge of our policy.

  12. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    I am a little out-of-date, but I think Germany is relying on coal too. Now when Germany talks coal they are doing high efficiency stuff (that our utilities hate) so it is not quite as bad as when we do coal, and could be considered sustainable. But the implication would be the “fossil fuels as instant death to all humanity ” movement is not as strong there. That’s a USA extremist thing. And I am pretty sure our Va. Dems have been honest about putting the extremists in charge of our policy.

  13. Emilio Jaksetic Avatar
    Emilio Jaksetic

    See also earlier article on Germany’s power grid at https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/germanys-green-energy-destabilizing-electric-grids/

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      here’s the problem:

      ” IER is often described as a “front” for the fossil fuel industry;[by whom?] it was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy’s transition team after the 2016 United States elections.”

      Is this an objective organization?

      And that’s the essential problem in BR – relying on climate deniers and fossil fuel folks to provide “news”. Hardly objective.

      Germany does have issues but those issues involve them actually having too much renewables and problems with their grid using too much of them and trying to find a way to balance the grid.

      Germany is working on using renewables to generate hydrogen.

      I’m not sure I’d bet against them given their reputation with regards to technology. Our missile and space program was brought online by German scientists.

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        I get it. All sources of news have to be “LarrythG-approved” or they are biased and subjective and can’t possibly have their facts straight.

        “Germany does have issues but those issues involve them actually having too much renewables and problems with their grid using too much of them and trying to find a way to balance the grid.”

        And that is EXACTLY what was said in the article which you accuse of being biased.

  14. Emilio Jaksetic Avatar
    Emilio Jaksetic

    See also earlier article on Germany’s power grid at https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/germanys-green-energy-destabilizing-electric-grids/

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      here’s the problem:

      ” IER is often described as a “front” for the fossil fuel industry;[by whom?] it was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy’s transition team after the 2016 United States elections.”

      Is this an objective organization?

      And that’s the essential problem in BR – relying on climate deniers and fossil fuel folks to provide “news”. Hardly objective.

      Germany does have issues but those issues involve them actually having too much renewables and problems with their grid using too much of them and trying to find a way to balance the grid.

      Germany is working on using renewables to generate hydrogen.

      I’m not sure I’d bet against them given their reputation with regards to technology. Our missile and space program was brought online by German scientists.

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        I get it. All sources of news have to be “LarrythG-approved” or they are biased and subjective and can’t possibly have their facts straight.

        “Germany does have issues but those issues involve them actually having too much renewables and problems with their grid using too much of them and trying to find a way to balance the grid.”

        And that is EXACTLY what was said in the article which you accuse of being biased.

  15. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    ‘“peak smoothing,” which is another way of saying “targeted blackouts.”’

    Nope these are not the same thing. Maybe go do some additional research on the topic.

    “Heat pumps, electric heaters and wall-boxes, i.e. charging stations for e-mobiles, could be shut off when needed to stabilize the grid.”

    I recall a certain unit the (then) Virginia Power mounted on my hot water heater that could remotely shut it down during periods of peak demand. This is absolutely nothing new. Really, maybe give renewable energy a chance. I simply can’t comprehend why BR is so against any move away from fossil fuels.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Yep. We have one of those water heaters as well as a HVAC thermostate that the electric company can “trim” when needed. We can always counter it but if we are not there, then it takes effect (unless we remotely counter it).

      This is part of a more modern grid that reduces consumption when it is not needed. It’s not a “fail”, it’s a win.

      1. Publius Avatar
        Publius

        So when VEPCO turns off your water heater without your knowledge, that cold shower is a win!
        I had those things where they could turn off your power temporarily for a monthly credit. They caused my heat pumps to Fritz and ended up costing me money.
        I’m for nuclear, but the greenies seem to oppose that because…it takes away their rationale to control all life because of “climate change?”

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          NOVEC has the same thing. I don’t know any details about VEPCO’s plan (which apparently doesn’t exist anymore) but NOVEC’s plan is as follows.

          If you allow them to install a load management switch on your water heater they will:

          (1) Only cut the power to your water heater during periods of peak load for up to 15 minutes. This only happens in the afternoon in the summer, a few times per summer. It’s not likely that you’ll be taking a shower at that time. If you are, it’s not likely that 15 minutes of power-off is going to reduce the water temp to the point you’ll actually notice it. (Unless, perhaps, your shower flows 10GPM?)

          (2)They will replace fuses, thermostats, and heating elements on your electric water heater for free.

          1. Publius Avatar
            Publius

            The VEPCO (yes, real name Dominion Energy, but this is Richmond and everything must be called by its old name) program was a $4 a month credit and it was discontinued a number of years ago – whether from complaints from the equipment being harmed or from not saving enough money for VEPCO, I don’t know.
            I know VEPCO owns the General Assembly, but at the same time, has to comply with all the ridiculous things imposed. For me, the energy has been stable and the dividends keep coming (and the cut was overdue – they had raised way too fast at an unsustainable level). So if they stick to their knitting on those two things, I can complain about other things…and there are plenty!

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          it’s a voluntary program and they do tell you when they do it and they don’t do it long enough so your shower goes cold and oftentimes it’s at times when folks don’t bath!

          Oftentimes it happens when you’re not even at home or if you are – at times most do not take showers.

          Conservatives say they are for “free market” but they’d change their mind right quick if NA3 was gonna cost 13 billion.

          Even DOminion says it’s a no go.

    2. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
      UpAgnstTheWall

      Because – to paraphrase Mel Brooks – for conservatives tragedy is when they’re temporarily inconvenienced, comedy is when the only habitable planet we have heats up as previously captured carbon is rereleased into the atmosphere and makes lives miserable for billions of people.

    3. Top-GUN Avatar
      Top-GUN

      The troll is telling half a story,,, yes they put a cutoff switch on his HVAC, because he VOLUNTEERED to have it installed, and got a slight break on his bill for signing up…
      In other words, it was Voluntary on his part, not mandated….

      1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
        Eric the Half a Troll

        It’s the same program JAB is bitching about. They can not selectively shut off your HVAC or water heater without your consent. They can only shut off your power and even JAB is not suggesting that is in the offing.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          So why did you allow them access to your home?

          Power companies property ends where the feed enters your house, you had to admit them access and opt-in for the program to which you’re complaining.

          1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            I am not complaining about the program. JAB is and he is painting it as non-voluntary.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | January 20, 2021 at 10:11 pm |
            I am not complaining about the program. JAB is and he is painting it as non-voluntary.”

            He is not, the German program is not voluntary. Much like the rolling black outs in South Africa they are to ease the peak load. They are mandatory and you don’t have a choice. A program where you signed up to save a few bucks at an inconvenience is your choice.

    4. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      If people enter into a voluntary contract and prepare themselves for interruptions in service, then that’s their business. If government imposes an interruption of service and people are NOT prepared, that’s quite another.

      Can you understand the difference?

      1. Acbar Avatar
        Acbar

        It’s not that simple. The government doesn’t impose a blackout; the grid operator does, simply in order to keep the lights on for the rest of the customers. It’s driven by the reality that you’ve run out of alternatives. An involuntary interruption is always the last resort.

        Where the government should be faulted is making or approving the policy decisions that resulted in inadequate generation to meet the load. That doesn’t happen overnight. The poor planning that results in such a vulnerability takes years to do its damage, is highly visible and politically deliberate, and when reality finally strikes, takes years to fix.

      2. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
        Eric the Half a Troll

        They can not reach into your house and turn off your HVAC or water heater without your consent. You predicted above that they would. Again, you said “Heat pumps, electric heaters and wall-boxes, i.e. charging stations for e-mobiles, could be shut off when needed to stabilize the grid.” Yes, they may, they do it now, but not without consent.

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          Well, they can do that to large industrials if there is a load emergency. But they also have programs where the big customer can volunteer and received compensation for shedding load.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Something called Terms of Service. Even for electricity. The water/sewer folks can do similar things. They can REQUIRE that you have a anti-siphon device and/or charge you higher rates when you use more than the set allocation.

            And we all know how cable TV and phone service work in terms of terms of service AND reliability.

            When you sign up for electricity – there is nothing in that “contract” that promises you 24/7 service without fail.

          2. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            anti-siphon devices are, I believe, required by the plumbing code.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            i.e. the service provider – as a condition of use, ditto low-flow fixtures.

    5. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “I recall a certain unit the (then) Virginia Power mounted on my hot water heater that could remotely shut it down during periods of peak demand.”

      And you allowed them to install it – that makes it voluntary. That also makes it quite a bit different from the power company unilaterally shutting down your electrical systems. While shutting off someone’s electricity may not be literally the same as a “blackout” it is certainly functionally the same.

  16. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Yes, but we all remember what happened when they were efficient.

    BTW, German Engineering is greatly overblown. 200 moving parts when 10 will do.

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      Yes, German Engineering sure is.

      For example, 8 fuel injectors and a throttle body when just one carburetor would do the job.

      4 overhead cams when just a single cam-in-block would do.

      And so on.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You think those are German innovations? Either way, give me a chain, no belts.

        OHC — the reason the Brits don’t make computers. Can’t figure out how to make them leak oil.

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          Years ago I worked at a place where the owner bought an old (60s?) Land Rover. He parked it right where I could see it in the parking lot from my desk. And, because it was on a slight hill, I had a perfect view of the pavement underneath…and the huge oil slick that was developing there.

          As far as the other..those may not be German innovations, but they were widely used by German engineers long before they were widely used elsewhere. (A lot of automotive innovations are like that, the German automakers are the early adopters).

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetronic

          “Jetronic is a trade name of a manifold injection technology for automotive petrol engines, developed and marketed by Robert Bosch GmbH from the 1960s onwards. Bosch licensed the concept to many automobile manufacturers. There are several variations of the technology offering technological development and refinement.”

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Lucas ‘Lectrics, the Prince of Darkness

            Bosch EFI? Oooh, oooh, remember the VW Rabbits that would grind to a halt when the truckers keyed their CBs?

          2. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            The first Jetronic system I became familiar with was the “K” series which was mechanical fuel injection. When those things were set correctly they were awesome. Their main problem was they became increasingly persnickety as they aged.

        2. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          BMW do use chains for timing, the rub is the plastic guides they use for that chain crap out before the rest of the car and grenade it.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Most of those “cool engines” that used to use timing belts have returned to chains again. The tensioners with the nylon guides should be the next to go, but those that rely on oil pressure will continue to be used and that wonderful “bbrraaap” on start is here to stay.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            A Wankel is a German engine devoid of chains and belts all together.

          3. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            “that wonderful “bbrraaap” on start is here to stay”

            That’s the result of using an oil filter with a bad/poor/lousy anti-drainback valve.

          4. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            It could be, but the chain tensioner also has a flow check to hold pressure and doesn’t.

            My daughter’s car started after 1 year. The mechanic was hestitant to replace the tensioner and the manufacturer had a tech bulletin that stated “harmless if less than 2 seconds or so”. It’s 13 years old with 140,000 so…

          5. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            Try an oil filter with a silicone anti drainback valve and see if it helps. The Fram Tough Guard is one, and I believe the Wix filters do as well (though I have no idea what brick and mortar store carries Wix filters).

            “Jobber” filters like quick-lubes use almost never have a silicone anti drainback valve. They’re just designed to be chea…err, “cost effective”.

            I was getting timing chain startup noise in a car I owned years ago and the manufacturer released a TSB advising the use of their filter with the new silicone valve.

            I tried it. No more noise.

            This, of course, is assuming it’s a spin-on filter. If it’s a cartridge filter then the anti-drainback valve is in the engine.

        3. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          “the reason the Brits don’t make computers. Can’t figure out how to make them leak oil.”

          Excellent!

          The Brits are also well know for their “fine” motorcycle and sportscar electrical systems. You haven’t truly lived until you’ve pitched a 1970 Triumph Bonneville into a high-speed declining-radius turn, at night, only to have the headlight dim to about one candle-power because the tolerance on the 12 volt “Lucas Electric” volt voltage regulator is something like +/-12 volts.

          There’s a very good reason that Lucas was nicknamed “the prince of darkness”.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The Brits and namely RR can’t figure out how to make a car that doesn’t leak mineral oil and therefore have your shocks and brakes go out at the same time.

            My father had a Bonneville 500, I’ll have to ask him about the headlight.

      2. V N Avatar
        V N

        And you can work on the bore of a carburetor … I did that to a 2 wheeler 🙂

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          My first car was carbureted. I do not miss that temperamental POS. It was always a little game to see if it wanted to cooperate and start.

          1. John Harvie Avatar
            John Harvie

            Wonder if anyone here is old enough to have seen a choke or hand crank…

          2. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            Manual choke, yes.

            Handcrank, no.

            One of the best running cars I ever owned was a 1969 Pontiac LeMans with 350 V-8 and a two-barrel Rochester carburetor . It never needed adjustment and never failed to start.

            At one point I screwed up and “upgraded” to a four-barrel Holley double-pumper. I could never get that thing to stay in adjustment for more than a week, and I ended up “undoing” all my work and going back to the Rochester. As an added benefit, with the two-barrel carb in place that heavy hunk of Detroit iron would get 24 mpg on the highway.

  17. kls59 Avatar
    kls59

    Don’t worry about Germany’s need for power — NordStream2 will solve that. Think of it as Northern Europe’s Mountain Valley Pipeline. Natural Gas to the rescue AGAIN.

    So Germany will pay Russia for ‘cheap’ clean energy which Moscow will use to build tanks, missiles, planes, and ships to threaten Germany and NATO – causing those nations and alliance to ask the US to protect it from with our talent, treasure, and tanks……hmmmmm

  18. kls59 Avatar
    kls59

    Don’t worry about Germany’s need for power — NordStream2 will solve that. Think of it as Northern Europe’s Mountain Valley Pipeline. Natural Gas to the rescue AGAIN.

    So Germany will pay Russia for ‘cheap’ clean energy which Moscow will use to build tanks, missiles, planes, and ships to threaten Germany and NATO – causing those nations and alliance to ask the US to protect it from with our talent, treasure, and tanks……hmmmmm

  19. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    That’s what you get when the whole Green thing devolves from what’s a practicable transition bounded by least-cost policy to plunging in recklessly while leaning on others.

    The European grid is heavily (compared to the U.S.) nuclear and baseloaded coal, and the transmission connecting all this together is relatively weak in some areas, including into Germany.

    So Germany can get away with its plunge into greenness only by leaning on the rest of Europe’s coal and nuclear generation. And that is bounded by constraints on how much it can import, so it is having to “flatten the curve” by adopting measures to encourage load shifting.

    No, that is not “blackouts,” Jim, but it is going to make it e Drxpensive to consume electricity there ‘when the sun don’t shine and the wind don’t blow’ because they have shut down too much of their baseload and cycling generating capacity.

    The whole premise behind electric-car charging at night is that night-time electricity is cheaper, because your grid’s overall load is lightest and only the baseload units that are cheapest by design (because they generate 24/7) are running. Add solar generation to that mix, however, and you change the hourly cost profile; add a huge amount of solar and you make electricity cheapest in the middle of the day, but only on sunny days.

    Solar and wind power can be very cheap when it’s available. But there are consequences to relying heavily on it. For one, you have to have a lot of backup cycling generation that can carry the load whenever solar or wind cannot. The cheapest efficient cycling units these days are natural gas fired (not fossil fuel free, and not typically base-load-cheap like those ugly coal and nuclear units).

    You’ve heard it said here before that if you get above, roughly, 30% renewable resources generation, you start to become vulnerable to generator coordination problems on the grid. Get above 50% and you are definitely taking a risk. The sun doesn’t always shine; the wind doesn’t always blow; major storms can disrupt normal weather patterns for days on end.

    I’m all for increasing our U.S. percentage of solar and wind power. It’s cost effective as a reasonable percentage of the whole. But what Germany has done is plunge ahead towards that >50% risk without building the cycling generation to mitigate the risk. They are gambling that by plunging ahead, the first in Europe to do so, to decommission their nukes and even some coal units and commit to a high percentage of renewables, they can lean on the baseload and cycling generation of their neighbors whenever they need to, without most of the public understanding how dependent on others they’ve done. Of course, only the first countries to do this can get away with it. It’s a very cynical, highly political ploy. As the pressure builds on the rest of Europe to follow suit, the extent to which Germany is leaning on its neighbors inevitably will become a big source of contention within the EU.

    Welcome to the problems of Federalism.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “That’s what you get when the whole Green thing devolves from what’s a practicable transition bounded by least-cost policy to plunging in recklessly while leaning on others.”

      Well said, sir. I hereby sponsor this as the morning candidate for “Comment of the Day”.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Hazza!

  20. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    That’s what you get when the whole Green thing devolves from what’s a practicable transition bounded by least-cost policy to plunging in recklessly while leaning on others.

    The European grid is heavily (compared to the U.S.) nuclear and baseloaded coal, and the transmission connecting all this together is relatively weak in some areas, including into Germany.

    So Germany can get away with its plunge into greenness only by leaning on the rest of Europe’s coal and nuclear generation. And that is bounded by constraints on how much it can import, so it is having to “flatten the curve” by adopting measures to encourage load shifting.

    No, that is not “blackouts,” Jim, but it is going to make it e Drxpensive to consume electricity there ‘when the sun don’t shine and the wind don’t blow’ because they have shut down too much of their baseload and cycling generating capacity.

    The whole premise behind electric-car charging at night is that night-time electricity is cheaper, because your grid’s overall load is lightest and only the baseload units that are cheapest by design (because they generate 24/7) are running. Add solar generation to that mix, however, and you change the hourly cost profile; add a huge amount of solar and you make electricity cheapest in the middle of the day, but only on sunny days.

    Solar and wind power can be very cheap when it’s available. But there are consequences to relying heavily on it. For one, you have to have a lot of backup cycling generation that can carry the load whenever solar or wind cannot. The cheapest efficient cycling units these days are natural gas fired (not fossil fuel free, and not typically base-load-cheap like those ugly coal and nuclear units).

    You’ve heard it said here before that if you get above, roughly, 30% renewable resources generation, you start to become vulnerable to generator coordination problems on the grid. Get above 50% and you are definitely taking a risk. The sun doesn’t always shine; the wind doesn’t always blow; major storms can disrupt normal weather patterns for days on end.

    I’m all for increasing our U.S. percentage of solar and wind power. It’s cost effective as a reasonable percentage of the whole. But what Germany has done is plunge ahead towards that >50% risk without building the cycling generation to mitigate the risk. They are gambling that by plunging ahead, the first in Europe to do so, to decommission their nukes and even some coal units and commit to a high percentage of renewables, they can lean on the baseload and cycling generation of their neighbors whenever they need to, without most of the public understanding how dependent on others they’ve done. Of course, only the first countries to do this can get away with it. It’s a very cynical, highly political ploy. As the pressure builds on the rest of Europe to follow suit, the extent to which Germany is leaning on its neighbors inevitably will become a big source of contention within the EU.

    Welcome to the problems of Federalism.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “That’s what you get when the whole Green thing devolves from what’s a practicable transition bounded by least-cost policy to plunging in recklessly while leaning on others.”

      Well said, sir. I hereby sponsor this as the morning candidate for “Comment of the Day”.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Hazza!

  21. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Well, there’s always Romania… again.

  22. Wahoo Avatar
    Wahoo

    Bring on Nuke power! ( And watch Larry G. pee the bed)

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      And WAHOO, if you actually read here, I SUPPORT Nuclear power , as well as natural gas but I also support modern nukes and use of gas only when we must. So pee on yourself guy!

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      It’s true, Larry does support nuclear power.

      I am probably as critical of his leftist tendencies as anyone here, but I’ve got to support him on that one.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        and besides that’s a separate issue with respect to whether I pee in bed or on myself even when Jim writes nutty stuff from climate skeptics and claims it to be “news”.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          I thought you only peed on the linoleum in the kitchen and then only when you were overexcited about being let outside…

          🙂

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            only in theory……..

  23. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Keep an eye on the ACE Nationwide Permit stuggles…. hard to build any new linear infrastructure projects that cover any distance with individual permits…. same with the fulltilt Environmental Justice regulations/ statutes people think they want.
    Some of the greenies may be going a little farther there then they comprehend. I’m not saying they are ill intentioned but may not comprehend the unintended consequences.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I predict that Nationwide Permit issues will be easily resolved for the “right kind” of linear infrastructure projects, aka “Green energy” projects.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Part of what is needed is more sub-stations and they tend to be smallish, not noisy and relatively easy to hide behind shrubbery…

        however, in my neck of the woods, people go ape-crap over a cell tower they can “see”. Yep… they want the cell service but they want the dang tower out of their eyesight!

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Somewhere in Pennsylvania north of Harrisburg there is (or at any rate was) a large communications tower disguised as a very tall pine tree.

          The problem is, it is located in a forest of deciduous trees. In the summer time it is noticeable, but disguised reasonably well. In the winter it stands out like a sore thumb and is OBVIOUSLY a communications tower dressed up as a tree.

          It can be clearly seen from the highway (Rt 15, I think – I have not been up that way in quite a while).

          Personally, I’d rather look at a regular tower than that monstrosity.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            There are cell antennas on mountain tops covered to look like large rocks.

            They just brought down one of your “trees” about a mile from my house. I never noticed it until they started taking it down. That’s when I realized it looked like a Norfolk Island Pine, something that won’t grow north of Florida.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/fredericksburg.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/b9/db9f66e6-5011-5fa6-a6e5-fcf375f7ba32/5737eb0f434b0.image.jpg?resize=500%2C751

          3. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            Those cell tower “trees” are pretty common. And they do look like some sort of mutant tree.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            At any rate, if cell towers can get permitted, I suspect that electric substations can also especially if they make them look like mutant sequoias.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            There is one of those odd looking “trees” off of route 3 if you’re heading towards Chancellorsville from 95. It’s right next to a Baptist Church, nothing like bombarding them with more waves haha.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’ve lived net to a substation, they aren’t small and they are very noisy. They also look like the second coming of Christ when they melt down. Hopefully your car isn’t close because the fire department will just move it for you.

    2. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
      Baconator with extra cheese

      And what I meant here is permits for the new green grids…. and power lines for the gazillion solar panels we’ll need to even think about all electric.

  24. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    And if they are going to push green energy that hard and prices climb, the GA better ban wood burning fireplaces.
    If not people will start burning every piece of wood they can get their hands on.

  25. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    The article makes four specific claims:

    (1) Germany is on the verge of widespread blackouts.
    (2) Germany has the highest electricity rates in the world.
    (3) Germany relies heavily on imported electricity.
    (4) Germany is not close to meeting its CO2 emissions targets.

    These things are either true or they are not. Each claim is verifiable. Larry has ducked, dodged and weaved in a bid to change the subject but has presented no evidence whatsoever to falsify any of the assertions. Neither has anyone else.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      There is much more to the Germany thing that just the negatives and their electricity prices along with the rest of Europe have been typically “high” compared to the US even before renewables.

      The site that published this is a skeptic site, not exactly one that deals with facts and realities… to start with.

      Easy to verify these days… just keyword search for Germany and you’ll get the real “news”, not just wackadoodle skeptic “reporting”.

      https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-electricity-grid-stable-amid-energy-transition

      Don’t rely on BR for energy “news” – you’ll get the climate skeptic version for sure!

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/resize/styles/large/public/images/factsheet/saidi-international-2016-800×667.jpg?itok=bcenYInW

      1. idiocracy Avatar
        idiocracy

        Does that include planned outages? Or just unplanned ones?

      2. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        Four year old data. How does that refute a claim that Germany is on the verge of needing to implement planned interruptions of power?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          FACTSHEET

          31 Jan 2020, 15:30 Sören Amelang Freja Eriksen
          Germany’s electricity grid stable amid energy transition
          Grid

          Production of intermittent green electricity has risen sharply over the last few years in Germany, and industry occasionally voices concern about the security of the power supply. But Germany still has one of the most reliable electricity grids in the world, and according to the country’s grid agency BNetzA, actual power blackouts are increasingly caused by extreme weather events, rather than by the transition to renewable energies. [Update January 2020]
          Germany’s power grid stability and security of supply has been stable over recent years despite a huge expansion of intermittent green electricity production. Average power outages per consumer amounted to just under 14 minutes in 2018, a slight decrease from a little over 15 minutes in 2017, according to the Federal Network Agency (BNetzA).

          “The energy transition and the rising share of decentralised generating capacity continue to have no negative effects on the quality of supply,” the agency said in a press release. The slightly higher level of interruptions in 2017 was caused by extreme weather events like storms, floods and snow, rather than the energy transition. “Interruption times in the distribution network caused by weather events more than doubled compared to a year earlier,” the BNetzA said of 2017 compared to 2016, where outages averaged less than 13 minutes per consumer.”

          1. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            Let’s play Larry’s game. Who is the lead author of this piece? He’s Sören Amelang. And Who is Sören Amelang? Why, he’s editor of “Clean Energy Wire: Journalism for the Energy Transition.” And what is “Clean Energy Wire”? I’m so glad you asked. Its mission statement says, it “fosters cross-border cooperation among reporters covering the move towards a climate-friendly society.”

            Clearly a biased source. And based on Larry’s logic, we can dispense with anything Mr. Amelang and his colleagues have to say.

            Alternatively, we could say, OK, we acknowledge that Amelang is a biased source but that does not in itself make him wrong. Let’s see what evidence and arguments he presents.

          2. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            From World Atlas:

            “Germany has the highest electricity costs in Europe, with a rate of around 35 US cents a kilowatt-hour. … There are ramifications involved in Germany’s contemporary renewable energy program, including an instable electric grid, the burden being placed upon German households by increased costs for electricity, and the need for secure back-up power that is affordable and reliable. Currently, utility companies within the country are receiving payments from the grid as a measure of stabilizing a network that has been disrupted due to surges and falls in contributions from solar and wind power sources. Coal is being utilized in a heftier manner in order to back-up the renewable technologies (and their intermittent nature) while delivering a reliable base load of power, although at the risk of increasing emissions of carbon dioxide. The result has been German residents having to pay feed-in-tariffs in addition to high utility costs as a measure of subsidizing the renewable energy technologies.”

            I guess this is where Larry trashes the credibility of World Atlas.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No game and no Larry’s logic but do something about Jim’s pattern of using skeptic sources to impugn renewables.

            If folks do a little checking on Jims “source”, first it’s not easy to determine who they are and who funds them and second it becomes clear that they are climate skeptics.

            What about this: ”
            From an article on the NoTricksZone blog (which draws upon reporting from Tichys Einblick)”

            Why use climate skeptics writing bogus articles about renwables in the first place?

            Read some of their other articles, and you get the drift.

            What does that have to be “Jim’s World”?

            You say you want tobe respected for “news” and journalism, right? Is this the way?

        2. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          And yet, you did not answer my question.

          One year old statements form a biased source. How do they refute the claim that Germany is on the verge of needing to implement planned interruptions of power?

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Come on Wayne, you know the answer. It’s “science”.

  26. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Here’s the issue in a nutshell. Those who do believe that our climate is being affected by the use of fossil fuels want to try to deal with it and think that renewables are a way (not the only way) and basically want to transition.

    Those that are skeptics disagree and doubt that this change to use less fossil fuels can “work” without affecting grid reliability.

    We’re going to find a way to do it, not without some bumps in the road but it will happen and the usual naysayers will do what they often do, try to thrown sand in the gears.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I don’t disagree with anything you wrote there, but you don’t seriously consider jeopardizing an entire country’s electrical supply grid to be a “bump in the road” do you? That’s more of a city-bus-sized pot hole.

      The bottom line is, the German’s went gaga over green energy and started shutting down viable and needed sources of power in favor of as-yet unproven, and unperfected* technology. I think they have gone too far too soon. Do you disagree?

      *By unperfected, I mean not yet at a level of sufficient function, reliability and economic operation to be used as a replacement for other sources of electricity. I do not mean that I think the technology needs to be literally perfect before it can be used.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Not advocating that bumps in the road would justify loss of reliability.

        But the grid is going to be transitioned to one that is less polluting AND – MORE reliable. We already know that it is obsolete and needs to be modernized to start with. And it’s the fact that it is outmoded that is leading to reliability issues even without renewables.

        Germany does look to be on the “bleeding edge” of transitioning.

  27. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Here’s the issue in a nutshell. Those who do believe that our climate is being affected by the use of fossil fuels want to try to deal with it and think that renewables are a way (not the only way) and basically want to transition.

    Those that are skeptics disagree and doubt that this change to use less fossil fuels can “work” without affecting grid reliability.

    We’re going to find a way to do it, not without some bumps in the road but it will happen and the usual naysayers will do what they often do, try to thrown sand in the gears.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I don’t disagree with anything you wrote there, but you don’t seriously consider jeopardizing an entire country’s electrical supply grid to be a “bump in the road” do you? That’s more of a city-bus-sized pot hole.

      The bottom line is, the German’s went gaga over green energy and started shutting down viable and needed sources of power in favor of as-yet unproven, and unperfected* technology. I think they have gone too far too soon. Do you disagree?

      *By unperfected, I mean not yet at a level of sufficient function, reliability and economic operation to be used as a replacement for other sources of electricity. I do not mean that I think the technology needs to be literally perfect before it can be used.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Not advocating that bumps in the road would justify loss of reliability.

        But the grid is going to be transitioned to one that is less polluting AND – MORE reliable. We already know that it is obsolete and needs to be modernized to start with. And it’s the fact that it is outmoded that is leading to reliability issues even without renewables.

        Germany does look to be on the “bleeding edge” of transitioning.

  28. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Also, I gotta tell you, at least when I used to visit Germany, they did not have the super-strict enviro regs that we have…I could see the stack fumes waft over the cities. There would actually be, god forbid, particulates coming out the coal plant stacks over there. We now know from USA liberals that the tiniest trace of fossil fuel particulates is extremely toxic and killing Americans by the millions, pretty much the sole cause of COVID, and is social injustice. In Germany/Japan it is not a social injustice because they have no minorities, so it’s OK there I guess.

    Bottom line New York’s attorney general needs to sue Germany for the millions of Americans being killed by particulates wafting over here by the Jet Stream air currents.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      They also don’t have HVAC system prevalent in most houses.

  29. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Lots and lots and lots of Honda 3KW gensets.

    So, if ICE cars all have 65 amp alternators, and plug in to inverters that are hooked into the grid, how many ICE cars would it take to charge a Telsa from dead empty to full in 30 minutes?

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Go big or go home, ship in a Chevy 302 GENSET converted for NG, get the 1000 gallon tank and charge that way.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You’d think they’d develop a, for lack of better term, house level auxiliary demand smoother.

        Most of the time your house sits there drawing maybe, what, 1KW max? Maybe less, and then jumps to a max of 7 to 8 when things like water heater, washing machines, AC/HP all kick on.

        You’d think they could build an inline storage system to deliver up to 5KWH for reducing house peaks and recharge in low demand times.

        Should help with brown outs. A 1000 gal LPG tank is not pretty.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Generac is advertising a system which essentially does that. That function is not the primary purpose of the system, which is reduced reliance on the grid via solar panels and a large battery bank, but the end result is that when the house does need to draw from the power grid it does so at a consistent, moderate level with no large peaks. The battery bank acts as an attenuator between the house and the power grid.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Attenuation! That’s the word!

            It’s tough getting older and fishing for the right word. “Circumcise, Doc! That’s what I wanted! Not castrate! Whadaya mean ‘too late’?”

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The railroad used those type of GNSETS at their control points for when the commercial power went out. Correct, it’s not pretty but it’s pretty dependable especially if you have an ATS.

            I’m unsure of the steady state draw of a house is, it would be dependent upon what all was running at that time. You’re also going to see flux when any time of motor kicks on (fridge, washer, dryer and what you listed above).

            As WayneS describe and he appears more up to snuff on stuff outside of transportation than myself, but essentially you make a giant feedback loop. You’ve turned your house into an adaptive cruise control, we used similar techniques on several experiments in college. We used Lead-lag compensators to dial it in.

    2. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      More modern ICE cars have alternators in the 110-130 amp range. That electric cooling fan uses a lot of power.

  30. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Lots and lots and lots of Honda 3KW gensets.

    So, if ICE cars all have 65 amp alternators, and plug in to inverters that are hooked into the grid, how many ICE cars would it take to charge a Telsa from dead empty to full in 30 minutes?

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Go big or go home, ship in a Chevy 302 GENSET converted for NG, get the 1000 gallon tank and charge that way.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You’d think they’d develop a, for lack of better term, house level auxiliary demand smoother.

        Most of the time your house sits there drawing maybe, what, 1KW max? Maybe less, and then jumps to a max of 7 to 8 when things like water heater, washing machines, AC/HP all kick on.

        You’d think they could build an inline storage system to deliver up to 5KWH for reducing house peaks and recharge in low demand times.

        Should help with brown outs. A 1000 gal LPG tank is not pretty.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Generac is advertising a system which essentially does that. That function is not the primary purpose of the system, which is reduced reliance on the grid via solar panels and a large battery bank, but the end result is that when the house does need to draw from the power grid it does so at a consistent, moderate level with no large peaks. The battery bank acts as an attenuator between the house and the power grid.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Attenuation! That’s the word!

            It’s tough getting older and fishing for the right word. “Circumcise, Doc! That’s what I wanted! Not castrate! Whadaya mean ‘too late’?”

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The railroad used those type of GNSETS at their control points for when the commercial power went out. Correct, it’s not pretty but it’s pretty dependable especially if you have an ATS.

            I’m unsure of the steady state draw of a house is, it would be dependent upon what all was running at that time. You’re also going to see flux when any time of motor kicks on (fridge, washer, dryer and what you listed above).

            As WayneS describe and he appears more up to snuff on stuff outside of transportation than myself, but essentially you make a giant feedback loop. You’ve turned your house into an adaptive cruise control, we used similar techniques on several experiments in college. We used Lead-lag compensators to dial it in.

    2. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      More modern ICE cars have alternators in the 110-130 amp range. That electric cooling fan uses a lot of power.

  31. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Keep an eye on the ACE Nationwide Permit stuggles…. hard to build any new linear infrastructure projects that cover any distance with individual permits…. same with the fulltilt Environmental Justice regulations/ statutes people think they want.
    Some of the greenies may be going a little farther there then they comprehend. I’m not saying they are ill intentioned but may not comprehend the unintended consequences.

    1. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
      Baconator with extra cheese

      And what I meant here is permits for the new green grids…. and power lines for the gazillion solar panels we’ll need to even think about all electric.

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I predict that Nationwide Permit issues will be easily resolved for the “right kind” of linear infrastructure projects, aka “Green energy” projects.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Part of what is needed is more sub-stations and they tend to be smallish, not noisy and relatively easy to hide behind shrubbery…

        however, in my neck of the woods, people go ape-crap over a cell tower they can “see”. Yep… they want the cell service but they want the dang tower out of their eyesight!

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Somewhere in Pennsylvania north of Harrisburg there is (or at any rate was) a large communications tower disguised as a very tall pine tree.

          The problem is, it is located in a forest of deciduous trees. In the summer time it is noticeable, but disguised reasonably well. In the winter it stands out like a sore thumb and is OBVIOUSLY a communications tower dressed up as a tree.

          It can be clearly seen from the highway (Rt 15, I think – I have not been up that way in quite a while).

          Personally, I’d rather look at a regular tower than that monstrosity.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            There are cell antennas on mountain tops covered to look like large rocks.

            They just brought down one of your “trees” about a mile from my house. I never noticed it until they started taking it down. That’s when I realized it looked like a Norfolk Island Pine, something that won’t grow north of Florida.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            There is one of those odd looking “trees” off of route 3 if you’re heading towards Chancellorsville from 95. It’s right next to a Baptist Church, nothing like bombarding them with more waves haha.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/fredericksburg.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/b9/db9f66e6-5011-5fa6-a6e5-fcf375f7ba32/5737eb0f434b0.image.jpg?resize=500%2C751

          4. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            Those cell tower “trees” are pretty common. And they do look like some sort of mutant tree.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            At any rate, if cell towers can get permitted, I suspect that electric substations can also especially if they make them look like mutant sequoias.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’ve lived net to a substation, they aren’t small and they are very noisy. They also look like the second coming of Christ when they melt down. Hopefully your car isn’t close because the fire department will just move it for you.

  32. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    And if they are going to push green energy that hard and prices climb, the GA better ban wood burning fireplaces.
    If not people will start burning every piece of wood they can get their hands on.

  33. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    The article makes four specific claims:

    (1) Germany is on the verge of widespread blackouts.
    (2) Germany has the highest electricity rates in the world.
    (3) Germany relies heavily on imported electricity.
    (4) Germany is not close to meeting its CO2 emissions targets.

    These things are either true or they are not. Each claim is verifiable. Larry has ducked, dodged and weaved in a bid to change the subject but has presented no evidence whatsoever to falsify any of the assertions. Neither has anyone else.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      There is much more to the Germany thing that just the negatives and their electricity prices along with the rest of Europe have been typically “high” compared to the US even before renewables.

      The site that published this is a skeptic site, not exactly one that deals with facts and realities… to start with.

      Easy to verify these days… just keyword search for Germany and you’ll get the real “news”, not just wackadoodle skeptic “reporting”.

      https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-electricity-grid-stable-amid-energy-transition

      Don’t rely on BR for energy “news” – you’ll get the climate skeptic version for sure!

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/resize/styles/large/public/images/factsheet/saidi-international-2016-800×667.jpg?itok=bcenYInW

      1. idiocracy Avatar
        idiocracy

        Does that include planned outages? Or just unplanned ones?

      2. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        Four year old data. How does that refute a claim that Germany is on the verge of needing to implement planned interruptions of power?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          FACTSHEET

          31 Jan 2020, 15:30 Sören Amelang Freja Eriksen
          Germany’s electricity grid stable amid energy transition
          Grid

          Production of intermittent green electricity has risen sharply over the last few years in Germany, and industry occasionally voices concern about the security of the power supply. But Germany still has one of the most reliable electricity grids in the world, and according to the country’s grid agency BNetzA, actual power blackouts are increasingly caused by extreme weather events, rather than by the transition to renewable energies. [Update January 2020]
          Germany’s power grid stability and security of supply has been stable over recent years despite a huge expansion of intermittent green electricity production. Average power outages per consumer amounted to just under 14 minutes in 2018, a slight decrease from a little over 15 minutes in 2017, according to the Federal Network Agency (BNetzA).

          “The energy transition and the rising share of decentralised generating capacity continue to have no negative effects on the quality of supply,” the agency said in a press release. The slightly higher level of interruptions in 2017 was caused by extreme weather events like storms, floods and snow, rather than the energy transition. “Interruption times in the distribution network caused by weather events more than doubled compared to a year earlier,” the BNetzA said of 2017 compared to 2016, where outages averaged less than 13 minutes per consumer.”

          1. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            Let’s play Larry’s game. Who is the lead author of this piece? He’s Sören Amelang. And Who is Sören Amelang? Why, he’s editor of “Clean Energy Wire: Journalism for the Energy Transition.” And what is “Clean Energy Wire”? I’m so glad you asked. Its mission statement says, it “fosters cross-border cooperation among reporters covering the move towards a climate-friendly society.”

            Clearly a biased source. And based on Larry’s logic, we can dispense with anything Mr. Amelang and his colleagues have to say.

            Alternatively, we could say, OK, we acknowledge that Amelang is a biased source but that does not in itself make him wrong. Let’s see what evidence and arguments he presents.

          2. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            From World Atlas:

            “Germany has the highest electricity costs in Europe, with a rate of around 35 US cents a kilowatt-hour. … There are ramifications involved in Germany’s contemporary renewable energy program, including an instable electric grid, the burden being placed upon German households by increased costs for electricity, and the need for secure back-up power that is affordable and reliable. Currently, utility companies within the country are receiving payments from the grid as a measure of stabilizing a network that has been disrupted due to surges and falls in contributions from solar and wind power sources. Coal is being utilized in a heftier manner in order to back-up the renewable technologies (and their intermittent nature) while delivering a reliable base load of power, although at the risk of increasing emissions of carbon dioxide. The result has been German residents having to pay feed-in-tariffs in addition to high utility costs as a measure of subsidizing the renewable energy technologies.”

            I guess this is where Larry trashes the credibility of World Atlas.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No game and no Larry’s logic but do something about Jim’s pattern of using skeptic sources to impugn renewables.

            If folks do a little checking on Jims “source”, first it’s not easy to determine who they are and who funds them and second it becomes clear that they are climate skeptics.

            What about this: ”
            From an article on the NoTricksZone blog (which draws upon reporting from Tichys Einblick)”

            Why use climate skeptics writing bogus articles about renwables in the first place?

            Read some of their other articles, and you get the drift.

            What does that have to be “Jim’s World”?

            You say you want tobe respected for “news” and journalism, right? Is this the way?

        2. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          And yet, you did not answer my question.

          One year old statements form a biased source. How do they refute the claim that Germany is on the verge of needing to implement planned interruptions of power?

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Come on Wayne, you know the answer. It’s “science”.

  34. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Also, I gotta tell you, at least when I used to visit Germany, they did not have the super-strict enviro regs that we have…I could see the stack fumes waft over the cities. There would actually be, god forbid, particulates coming out the coal plant stacks over there. We now know from USA liberals that the tiniest trace of fossil fuel particulates is extremely toxic and killing Americans by the millions, pretty much the sole cause of COVID, and is social injustice. In Germany/Japan it is not a social injustice because they have no minorities, so it’s OK there I guess.

    Bottom line New York’s attorney general needs to sue Germany for the millions of Americans being killed by particulates wafting over here by the Jet Stream air currents.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      They also don’t have HVAC system prevalent in most houses.

  35. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    LarrytheG has done it again. He criticizes the work of IER because of where it gets its funds; not by showing that its work is not accurate. Anyone who takes the time to look carefully into the situation with German power generation will see that it is a mess. Germany has had quite a few blackouts and has electricity costs per kWh that are more than double Virginia’s. And, it also imports a lot of electricity that is produced by coal. On top of all of this, it is strongly supported the NordStream pipeline so that it can be dependent on Russian natural gas. Not only is that against its political self-interest it further undercuts its claims about the commitment to renewables.

  36. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    LarrytheG has done it again. He criticizes the work of IER because of where it gets its funds; not by showing that its work is not accurate. Anyone who takes the time to look carefully into the situation with German power generation will see that it is a mess. Germany has had quite a few blackouts and has electricity costs per kWh that are more than double Virginia’s. And, it also imports a lot of electricity that is produced by coal. On top of all of this, it is strongly supported the NordStream pipeline so that it can be dependent on Russian natural gas. Not only is that against its political self-interest it further undercuts its claims about the commitment to renewables.

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