Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

What Do You Do If There Are No Statues Left to Tear Down?

—

by

James A. Bacon
in ,

Can of worms

Step #1: Reinterpret the Confederate statues;

Step #2: Remove the Confederate statues from the public square;

Step #3: Prevent those who want the statues from having them. Decapitate the statues, melt them down, or desecrate them in art and museum displays.

What’s left? Where else is there to go?

Step #4: Take away tax-exempt status from a prominent organization dedicated to preserving the statues.

SB517 and HB 568 would eliminate the exemption from state recordation taxes for the Virginia Division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) as well as the tax exemption for real and personal property owned by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The House Bill passed the House Finance Committee in a 12 to 10 (presumably party-line) vote.

My colleague Steve Haner reprimands me for defending symbols of the Confederacy. It’s a losing political proposition, he says. It plays into the hands of Democrats in a state whose population is now dominated by racial/ethnic minorities and out-of-staters. The percentage of White descendants of Confederate soldiers is steadily shrinking. In the minds of a majority, “Southern heritage” has become synonymous with racism and slavery, not courage and sacrifice. As much as I sympathize with the goal of preserving and augmenting all of Virginia’s heritage, I must agree that defending Confederate statues is not a great way for Republicans and conservatives to expand their political base.

But I must raise one point: what if the General Assembly actually passes this bill? Attacking the tax-exempt status of the United Daughters of the Confederacy creates a dangerous precedent. What legal or logical principle would stop the legislature from canceling the tax-exempt status of any nonprofit organization? If Democrats revoke the tax-exempt status of the UDC, what would prevent Republicans, if they come back into power, from yanking the exemption for a local chapter of Black Lives Matter, or the NAACP, or the Council for American Islamic Relations?

The bills are born of bitter spite, and they open an ugly can of worms.

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108 responses to “What Do You Do If There Are No Statues Left to Tear Down?”

  1. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I turned on the House Finance Committee meeting yesterday just in time to see this bill discussed, briefly, before it was reported on a party line vote. I didn’t hear anybody speak against the bill. I knew Bacon would want to know about it and it would raise his BP.

    The answer to his question is that nothing now stops the Assembly, with whatever majority, from removing a tax exemption that it previously had granted by law. And it from time to time it does so, especially with exemptions that were put in with sunset clauses. If you read the bill, you will see the UDC is the only organization mentioned by name in the Code as enjoying this exemption. Hospitals, churches and educational institutions also enjoy it, but are not individually listed. No charity or museum or club similar to UDC is exempt.

    The bill does not mess with exemption from sales and use taxes on operational costs, just the recordation taxes, which are only imposed on real estate transfers or debt instruments. Presumably either the grantor or grantee portion. I doubt it gets paid on any property anywhere once a decade. ‘Tis a meaningless bill, a silly bill, a petty piece of work, but arguably it was just as silly when the exemption was created to pander for votes. Live by vote pandering, die by vote pandering.

    Standing up to object just makes it that much easier for our enemies to paint us (well, you, specifically) as still clinging to the Lost Cause of Slavery. At least once weekly, it seems, somebody is on this blog doing exactly that. Our friend John Reid waves the bloody shirt on his radio show at least as often. He usually follows with a section wondering out loud why Republicans lose so often….

  2. WayneS Avatar
    WayneS

    What Do You Do If There Are No Statues Left to Tear Down?

    Burn some paintings?

    …

  3. Thomas Dixon Avatar
    Thomas Dixon

    Desecration began with Southern heroes.
    Then the founding fathers are to be destroyed.
    After that it’s whatever the communist colleges and media tell the ignorant are bad.
    Like those of us acknowledging the unborn as sentient humans.
    And don’t forget to eliminate those rebels who refuse the next mask and death shot.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Get a gun. Practice. And make no mistake, I see it coming, but it is coming because we keep losing elections and fighting on the wrong hills isn’t going to help, shooting ourselves in the foot with too many voters is helping the other side. You….are….being….played.

      1. Not Today Avatar
        Not Today

        Take a page, sir. Pick one, any one. Stop encouraging folks to prepare for and engage in further acts of violence. J6 was quite enough.

        https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/farewell-address

      2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        You seek deliverance via elections and politicians. You might be the one…played like a fiddle.

      3. Not Today Avatar
        Not Today

        Take a page, sir. Pick one, any one. Stop encouraging folks to prepare for and engage in further acts of violence. J6 was quite enough.

        https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/farewell-address

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          That’s a great speech. This is one of my favorite parts:

          It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those intrusted with its administration to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power and proneness to abuse it which predominates in the human heart is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position. The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositories, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern, some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them. If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit which the use can at any time yield.

          1. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Indeed. I’m all for using and applying the structures created by our constitution to effect change, from amendments to referenda/voting. There’s only one person/party actively advocating the suspension of the constitution, the sublimation of co-equal branches of government, and fealty above all, and it ain’t Joe Biden.

          2. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Indeed. I’m all for using and applying the structures created by our constitution to effect change, from amendments to referenda/voting. There’s only one person/party actively advocating the suspension of the constitution, the sublimation of co-equal branches of government, and fealty above all, and it ain’t Joe Biden.

          3. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            There are two people/parties doing it, and one of them is Joe Biden (and the democrat party).

          4. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            There are two people/parties doing it, and one of them is Joe Biden (and the democrat party).

          5. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Yeah, no. Not even close but whatever you need to tell yourself. Do you think Americans have amnesia? It’s possible they do. Ours is a sick country. Do you not recall the separation of migrant families (women and men from their children, even nursing infants) and our inability to reunite them? It’s still an issue. If you can provide some reputable sourcing for Joe Biden’s pledge to suspend the constitution, habeas corpus, seek retribution using the levers of power, and make some Americans (read: women) second-class citizens…I’ll entertain it. Thus far, I’ve seen no evidence that Dems want to restrict the franchise or discourage participation in decision-making. Then again, the Dems actually HAVE a party platform to review. The Republicans do not.

          6. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            Then again, the Dems actually HAVE a party platform to review. The Republicans do not.

            A fair point there, for sure.

        2. Chip Gibson Avatar
          Chip Gibson

          J6 was a liberal stunt.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            J6 was Trumps strategy to allow him to declare martial law and stay in office.

    2. Chip Gibson Avatar
      Chip Gibson

      Excellent, Sir!

  4. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I turned on the House Finance Committee meeting yesterday just in time to see this bill discussed, briefly, before it was reported on a party line vote. I didn’t hear anybody speak against the bill. I knew Bacon would want to know about it and it would raise his BP.

    The answer to his question is that nothing now stops the Assembly, with whatever majority, from removing a tax exemption that it previously had granted by law. And it from time to time it does so, especially with exemptions that were put in with sunset clauses. If you read the bill, you will see the UDC is the only organization mentioned by name in the Code as enjoying this exemption. Hospitals, churches and educational institutions also enjoy it, but are not individually listed. No charity or museum or club similar to UDC is exempt.

    The bill does not mess with exemption from sales and use taxes on operational costs, just the recordation taxes, which are only imposed on real estate transfers or debt instruments. Presumably either the grantor or grantee portion. I doubt it gets paid on any property anywhere once a decade. ‘Tis a meaningless bill, a silly bill, a petty piece of work, but arguably it was just as silly when the exemption was created to pander for votes. Live by vote pandering, die by vote pandering.

    Standing up to object just makes it that much easier for our enemies to paint us (well, you, specifically) as still clinging to the Lost Cause of Slavery. At least once weekly, it seems, somebody is on this blog doing exactly that. Our friend John Reid waves the bloody shirt on his radio show at least as often. He usually follows with a section wondering out loud why Republicans lose so often….

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      Welcome to Nothingburger. Would you like fries with that?

    2. Not Today Avatar
      Not Today

      I don’t disagree with you about the legislation. It’s silly and performative. What else is true is that the nonstop refusal to acknowledge the ongoing harm of racist ideology and open effort to advance programs and policies that erase/undermine knowledge of the same, is like waving a red flag in front of a big, still growing, young bull.

    3. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      What is the problem with taking Confederate statues to places and communities that want them? Are you saying that, in order to win elections in Virginia, we have to stand by silently while art is pulled down, and even destroyed?

      If being a good Republican means that we have to stand by and watch our ancestors and their descendants being insulted, and the monuments to our ancestors be disrespected and even destroyed…well, you can’t seriously expect us to accept that, right?

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        “If being a good Republican means that we have to stand by and watch our ancestors and their descendants being insulted…”

        They are not being insulted. They are simply being returned to standard non-honored human status like the rest of us.

        1. Donald Smith Avatar
          Donald Smith

          I am confident that no rational adult thinks that, if the favored organization was the Henrico Mummers Society, instead of the UDC, the Democrats would go to the trouble of targeting its tax-favorable status with legislation.

          Especially at times when we’re all supposed to be finding ways to heal the wounds that divide us. I’m confident that rational adults will perceive this latest woke escapade as something that will cause more wounds, instead of healing old ones. As an attempt to stir up more trouble.

          That is the case we will make to the general public. You are welcome to make your case, too, that your sides actions are totally benign here.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Especially at times when we’re all supposed to be finding ways to heal the wounds that divide us.”

            yeah, I don’t think the right got that memo…. to be honest.

          2. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            If the lefties in Charlottesville would have wanted to “heal the wounds that divide us” they would have taken the Confederate statues off public grounds and sold them with the stipulation that they not be displayed on public land. Not only would that have been a more reasonable approach, it would have generated income for the City of Charlottesville.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh you think that’s the ONLY thing that those on the right have been doing to divide us? 😉

          4. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            No. What you prefer is capitulation, not healing. Biblical atonement requires recognition of wrongs. The people who put these statues up and continue to advocate for them have NEVER acknowledged that that they were wrong.

          5. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            Not Today, your statement is not entirely clear, but you seem to be suggesting that defenders of Southern heritage have never acknowledged that the Southern cause was wrong. Perhaps this will set your mind at ease.

            Slavery was wrong.

            Secession to preserve slavery was wrong.

            Jim Crow segregation was wrong.

            The Ku Klux Klan was wrong.

            Racism was, and is, wrong.

            Discrimination against Blacks was, and is, wrong.

            The paternalistic welfare state that creates dependency and undermines the family structure (of whatever race) is wrong.

            DEI ideology that undermines Black agency by blaming all woes on racism and that characterizes the success virtues (hard work, thrift, deferring gratification, etc.) as “white” is wrong.

            Oh, you probably weren’t thinking about those last two. But rest assured, everyone on this blog who supports Southern heritage acknowledges that the Confederate cause was wrong. Everyone is glad that secession failed, the Union was restored, and slavery was abolished.

            This seems hard for you to wrap your mind around, but what we honor in those statues is courage, heroism and sacrifice — the same virtues we honor for veterans of WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Middle East wars.

            But please let me know if there’s anything else that needs saying, no matter how utterly obvious, so we can talk about what we actually believe.

          6. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            I was with you until you launched into demonstrably false statements halfway through. You obviously haven’t had time to read the comments on your site, process all I’ve said about your concept of cultural pathology, support for terrorist statues, and failure to support women, children, and families. It wasn’t DEI ideology that created systemic inequity, it was conservative policies and practices that undermined black agency. DEI principles are a response, not a catalyst. DEI principles are a response to exclusion, not a catalyst for further division.

            You speculate, regularly and without evidence, that merely using the words diversity, equity, and inclusion in an agenda or course description, or decision-making, demonize white people without ever attending the events you single out for scorn or talking to those who do. You have no idea what is discussed or how it changes/improves (or not) organizational culture or behavior. It’s tiresome. I welcome the day you engage in good faith LEARNING and stop putting your ‘welfare ideology’ dogma in front of feeding needy, dependent, kids. I’ll wait.

          7. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            “The people who put those statues up …”.

            Are all dead.

            The statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville, Virginia, was installed in 1924.

          8. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Oh? These statues have been erected as recently as 2015. I presume you were alive then too? https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/confederate-monuments-civil-war-history-trump

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            “After 73 Confederate monuments were removed or renamed in 2021, there are now 723 left in the US, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.”

            https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/02/us/confederate-monuments-removed-2021-whose-heritage/index.html#:~:text=After%2073%20Confederate%20monuments%20were,the%20Southern%20Poverty%20Law%20Center.

      2. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        “Being a good Republican” means remembering our political progenitors were on the top of the hill at Gettysburg killing defenders of slaveocracy. In a century and a half, no statue was ever put up to a Republican Virginian who fought slavery. Winfield Scott. George Thomas. Even Longstreet was snubbed because he was insufficiently racist. It was about slavery and rejection of the Constitution. (The original armed election denial…)

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          According to Wikipedia, 40% of Virginia’s military officers at the start of the Civil War
          remained and fought for the Union. These officers included General-in-Chief of the Union Army Winfield Scott, First Admiral of the Union Navy
          David G. Farragut, and General George Henry Thomas.

          Most Unionists lived in Virginia’s western counties. Their opposition to secession was less about slavery and more about the undemocratic political advantages enjoyed by slave owners. Unionists thrived in Union-occupied areas of Northern Virginia and fought guerrilla actions in Southwest Virginia.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            but do we have roads and schools and public buildings named for any of them?

          2. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Not that I know of, which I think is Steve Haner’s point. Virginia could have been a Civil War remembrance state. Instead, it became a Confederacy celebration state.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So the UDC was not about memorializing the Civil War and those who fought but instead just Jim Crow monuments to those who fought for the “Lost Cause” and taking them down is removing our “heritage” but there are no statues to take down that were never put up? I live in a place that has many civil war battlefields and memorials in them. As far as I know, not a single one has been taken down.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Why didn’t the folks who put up statues of the defenders of slavery also put up statues of those who fought against it?

        3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          The Righteous Cause Myth crumbles as fast as the Lost Cause Myth.

    4. Not Today Avatar
      Not Today

      It is a bit disingenuous to be concerned about rights being taken away tho, no? All things considered, I’d take a tax exemption over bodily autonomy, not that one should have to trade.

    5. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      “Standing up to object just makes it that much easier for our enemies to paint us (well, you, specifically) as still clinging to the Lost Cause of Slavery.”

      Or, we could roll over and let our enemies characterize us, as we curl up in the fetal position and sob because the Washington Post or Politico, or the recent arrivals in Richmond from New Jersey don’t approve of us.

      You are welcome to do that. Many mainstream Republicans do exactly that. But, to paraphrase the great Margaret Thatcher, we in the Confederate heritage community are not for turning. Yes, we have our flaws. (Oh BOY do we have some flaws! But who doesn’t?) But we will stand up and defend the honor of our ancestors, and push back against wokeism and presentism.

      What point is winning elections, if the sacrifices we have to make in order to win those elections leave us with a vanilla heritage, and an emotionally and culturally brittle and hypersensitive society?

    6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “If you read the bill, you will see the UDC is the only organization mentioned by name in the Code as enjoying this exemption. Hospitals, churches and educational institutions also enjoy it, but are not individually listed. No charity or museum or club similar to UDC is exempt.

      The bill does not mess with exemption from sales and use taxes on operational costs, just the recordation taxes, which are only imposed on real estate transfers or debt instruments. Presumably either the grantor or grantee portion. I doubt it gets paid on any property anywhere once a decade. ‘Tis a meaningless bill, a silly bill, a petty piece of work, but arguably it was just as silly when the exemption was created to pander for votes. Live by vote pandering, die by vote pandering.”

      Funny, JAB missed that part of the issue…

  5. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    “Attacking the tax-exempt status of the United Daughters of the Confederacy creates a dangerous precedent. What legal or logical principle would stop the legislature from canceling the tax-exempt status of any nonprofit organization?”

    As Douglas Murray said—if you have no respect for my heritage, then I’m under no obligation to show any respect for yours.

    If the rules of the game have changed—OK, then. Let us all play by the new rules.

    From what I see, lots of the urban areas that have gleefully torn down Confederate statues have lots and lots of problems that cry out for state funding. Well, maybe some rural Senators and Delegates might conclude that it’s time for the city dwellers to lay in the beds they made for themselves.

    1. Not Today Avatar
      Not Today

      While I agree with you about the legislative precedent, do you really think it’s rural dollars being allocated? Who is funding whom?

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      There are a couple of problems with your argument. First, the legislation does not attack the general tax-exempt status of the UDC. As Steve pointed out, it only eliminates that organization’s exemption from the recordation tax, which probably won’t cost it anything. The UDC is the only specfic non-profit named in the statute. The obvious question is why should that organization to entitled to the exemption and not other non-profits, such as the YMCA or the Virginia Historical Society.

      Your second problem is that rural areas don’t have the political power in Richmond anymore to thwart the urban areas.

      1. Donald Smith Avatar
        Donald Smith

        I’ll stipulate your first point, and concede that you may be right on the second.

        Your first problem is that the Democrat Party has proven itself to be the party of wokeness, divisiveness, pettiness and spite. Removing Confederate statues from a city that no longer wants them is one thing. Targeting an obscure organization through legislation is spite. Generally, adults view spiteful people and organizations with contempt.

        Your second problem is that today’s Democrats are acquiring a reputation as an anti-American heritage party. As we warned everyone, y’all won’t stop with Confederate statues. The governor of Pennsylvania just had to intervene to derail an initiative by wokeists in the National Park Service to remove William Penn’s statue. Most Americans understand America’s history is complex and can handle that. It now seems clear that today’s Democrats can’t. (Or won’t).

        Your third problem is that suburbanites who have no sympathy for the Confederacy also have dwindling sympathy for the mayhem they perceive in our urban areas. Crappy schools, rampant shoplifting, uncaring DAs, elected officials who say that insurance can pay for it all, etc… It’s human nature to NOT want to pony up state money for communities like that. I suspect some savvy rural legislators can point that out to suburban legislators in the GA halls this session.

        Yes, you have made the case that you CAN take away the UDC’s exemption. You have the power to do it. Now, make the case that you SHOULD do it. That an action like this is important in divisive times like these.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Targeting an obscure organization through legislation is spite.

          I see it as righting a wrong. I don’t care about the UDC one way or another, but in the interest of fairness, I do not think one particular non-profit organization should ever have been singled out by name for preferential tax-treatment under the laws of the Commonwealth.

          1. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            Righting what wrong?

        2. Not Today Avatar
          Not Today

          Democrats are ALL FOR American Heritage, hence my reminder of Washington’s farewell address that puts modern Republicans to shame. No, what they advocate is a fuller recognition of what does and has defined America, an inclusive story that reflects all.

          1. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            Speaking of which, are you familiar with the Coe Ridge Colony in Kentucky?

          2. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            No, but I’m open to learning.

          3. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            Coe Ridge was an area of Kentucky purchased from the Coe family by some of their freed slaves after the Civil War. They founded a thriving community consisting of freed slaves, American Indians, white women escaping bad situations with abusive partners, and other outcasts from “white society”.

            A fascinating story.

            https://www.amazon.com/Chronicles-Coe-Colony-Samuel-S/dp/0979771315

          4. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Sounds interesting; I’ll check it out.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            some context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coe_Ridge_Colony

    3. Not Today Avatar
      Not Today

      While I agree with you about the legislative precedent, do you really think it’s rural dollars being allocated? Who is funding whom?

      1. Donald Smith Avatar
        Donald Smith

        Rural, urban and suburban legislators vote on statewide appropriations. If urban voters bend over backwards to spit on rural voters’ concerns, then it stands to reason that rural voters will look for payback.

        Urban communities are free to do whatever they want with “their” dollars. But, if they want state dollars, then they need General Assembly approval. If urban progressives want to showboat and be petty with legislation like this, they shouldn’t be surprised if there is considerable pressure on rural legislators to make urban progressives feel some pain.

        If urban progressives want to put their schools and public health systems at risk of reduced funding, because they wanted to Speak Truth To Power…well, adults know that there are consequences to all decisions they make.

        1. Not Today Avatar
          Not Today

          Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t appropriations begin with the body apportioned by population, not land mass? And if the majority of people live in more populated places…hmmm…

          1. Donald Smith Avatar
            Donald Smith

            You are free to play a game of chicken with state funding. You are free to make the case that it’s worth putting urban communities’ share of state funding at risk, in order to stick it to the Confederates. You may even be right—but what if you’re not?

            Seems to me that Virginia urban areas have lots of needs that could be addressed by state resources. But, if you want to play chicken, then that’s up to you.

            As for me, I think we can make a case that it’s time to stand up to silly and petty progressives.

          2. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Of course they have needs. I just don’t think this ‘tyranny of the minority’ strategy you’re proposing is a winning one.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            May be some confusion as to where much of Va revenues comes from to start with?

            Much of rural Va is a basket case economically and by far the biggest recipient of composite index school funding.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “Much of rural Va is a basket case economically”

            Commercial buildings that have been sitting empty and rotting for 30 or more years gives one that impression..

          5. Donald Smith Avatar
            Donald Smith

            OK, so the urban areas, especially the inner cities, don’t need an increased level of state funds? Thanks for clarifying—duly noted. I will pass it on.

          6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            The point is if rural representatives want to stop state funds from flowing to localities, they do more harm to themselves than anyone else. If northern localities can keep their tax dollars local, they will come out ahead in the game. But it will not happen for all the reasons already explained to you on this thread.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            That’s the thing. NoVa and other urban areas get taxed by the State that then turns around and uses it to help the rural areas.

            BassAckwards is Don on this.

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            So NoVA does not get back all the tax money they contribute to the VA treasury?

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I seriously doubt it. For instance, where does the money come from when the state sends more
            money to schools in poorer counties in Va? Gotta come from the richer counties , right?

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            That’s been my suspicion for a while.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            reality. Do you think the rural areas are subsidizing NoVa. 🙂

          12. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “As for me, I think we can make a case that it’s time to stand up to silly and petty progressives.”

            I think what they are telling you, Donald, is if you are feeling froggy, go ahead and leap.

          13. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            More fine words. My compliments, Sir.

    4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “Well, maybe some rural Senators and Delegates might conclude that it’s time for the city dwellers to lay in the beds they made for themselves.”

      Funny that you think that tax dollars flow from rural to urban parts of Virginia…

      1. Donald Smith Avatar
        Donald Smith

        You are correct about the flow of money. But I suspect many suburbanites are sick and tired of the silliness they see going on in our urban areas. They will probably be open to the argument that there’s no need to raise state taxes or divert state funds to help communities or interest groups. that seem to keep making problems for themselves. Rural legislators can make that argument.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Also funny you think they don’t already try.

          1. Donald Smith Avatar
            Donald Smith

            Spiteful, divisive actions like attacking a tax benefit for an obscure organization will make it easier for them to make their case.

          2. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            Also…ME! I am a suburbanite, lol.

      2. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        Your comment exposes a question that has been kicked around on BaconsRebellion since the late, great Ed Risse was a regular contributor.

        How does one define urban, suburban, ex-urban, small town and rural?

        In my opinion, the only way to make this definition work is through population density. The question then becomes – what boundaries to use. Legal boundaries are not that useful in Virginia. The “city” of Virginia Beach is a county that was renamed a city. I understand that the population densities are very mixed from area to area in VB.

        Zip codes may be the best measure. I believe that population density is available by zip code.

        Using that definition, I think (but don’t know) that suburban and ex-urban zip codes would be the big losers in Virginia’s money transfer sweepstakes.

        I used to wonder why Northern Virginia politicians aren’t clamoring for more transparency regarding money transfers from one region to another. One of two things would come out from such transparency – the transfers are reasonable and fair or they are not. Either way, the constituents of NoVa’s politicians should know.

        I suspect that NoVa’s politicians know (or, at least, guess) that the transfers, if documented, would seem very unreasonable and unfair to NoVa voters.

        And, or course, that would turn the spotlight on those very NoVa politicians who allowed a system viewed as unfair to the local NoVa voters to happen.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Is 49 people per square mile considered low?

        2. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Is 49 people per square mile considered low?

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Very.

            Something I saw years ago indicated that areas with up to around 350 people per square mile were solidly Repub and it started shifting to Dem as population became more dense than that.

            This study has somewhat different numbers. Up to around 600 people per square mile is solid Repub switching to Dem by around 1,200 with more Indys in densities in between.

            https://source.wustl.edu/2020/02/the-divide-between-us-urban-rural-political-differences-rooted-in-geography/

    5. Chip Gibson Avatar
      Chip Gibson

      Well stated, Sir!

  6. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a3494758b9a0b3d8b352f2562ede7f67faffdc98a309e96a441582f7775d9984.png

    Wow, I had no idea there were so many statues representing our heritage in Richmond….

    and so far,the vast majority still standing for some odd reason.

    https://rotj.wordpress.com/statues-monuments/

    the tax exemption thing probably is petty but mostly symbolic.

    On the other hand, claiming mass destruction of statues seems a bit much.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I guess it depends on your definition of “vast majority”…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        yep and some who are in the minority are apprently in denial about it…

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          Stoney missed one Mr. Larry. Judah Benjamin monument is alive and well.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            You frequently bring some historical reference up that I was never taught nor learned and I have to trundle off to learn. Don’t know where to thank or curse!

            Is there a memorial in RIchmond for this guy?

            I see this: https://www.floridastateparks.org/parks-and-trails/judah-p-benjamin-confederate-memorial-gamble-plantation-historic-state-park

            And some others.

            He had quite the life:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Benjamin was the most important member of Jefferson Davis cabinet. Buried in Paris France.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yep, saw that in Wiki. Your width and breadth of history is amazing though we do disagree about the original
            purpose and modern day perspective of some of the statues. In my mind, it’s not just the subject, it’s the
            involvement of UDC and Jim Crow that makes the difference. There are hundreds and thousands of “statues”
            and memorials , many about Confederate soldiers that are not coming down and likely never will..and the
            claim that they are all coming down is just ideological hyperbole. Remembrance of Jim Crow is not
            something we should be doing in the 21st century IMO. Jim Crow is NOT our “heritage” nor should we be
            insisting it’s “history” as if it is more worthy of other history that has no such memorials.

          4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Spare me your lecture Mr. Larry. Empty words when I see facts like this one.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7f69af0558fb2d8fc907857b3955287f27d7627e55fb72a806f9a0020afde408.jpg

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            the two issues are related? Do you NOT see that decades of racism has led to lower education levels and poverty that then leads to other things like this? If you already have a poor education and a low-paying job and a kid or two, would it be irresponsible to continue to have more and become an even bigger ward needing entitlements?

            I clearly don’t understand how you boys think and when disparities are show as to whether it’s “culture” or education/poverty”

            If we had free birth control, it would save millions of lives and dollars. When I see the “anti” folks advocate for free birth control, I might rethink:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d7d84540133f835ac53f22c29d6ab0291a15e90e55295f7ca7d0e45bd220cdad.png

          6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Oh yes Mr. Larry. The statistic I attached is modern Jim Crow. Far more sinister and evil than some damned statue in Richmond.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            You might have to explain… I’m pretty dense sometimes….

          8. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            Jim Crow, that great symbolic label, crutch of modern liberalism and “memory” of those actually too young to have known, is nothing more today than a tool of division. Go and erect a grand statue to “Crow”, right there on Monument Ave. There is certainly now plenty of room. Ashe will not mind.
            What will that statue present? Perhaps, a great mirror, for all to gaze within, within themselves…to reflect upon themselves and ponder what that all means, really. Gaze deeply and ask one’s self, “what seeds of division and corruption have I sowed this day.”

          9. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            Jim Crow, that great symbolic label, crutch of modern liberalism and “memory” of those actually too young to have known, is nothing more today than a tool of division. Go and erect a grand statue to “Crow”, right there on Monument Ave. There is certainly now plenty of room. Ashe will not mind.
            What will that statue present? Perhaps, a great mirror, for all to gaze within, within themselves…to reflect upon themselves and ponder what that all means, really. Gaze deeply and ask one’s self, “what seeds of division and corruption have I sowed this day.”

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Jim Crow is true history for those who actually want to acknowledge it as well as the symbols that were created
            and are still around to today. Statues are not “history”. They are memorials. To whom should we memorialize? traitors, racists and segregationists? “Division” is caused when folks engage in selective and revisionist history instead of acknowledging ALL history , good and bad. We are dishonest about “history” if all we want is what we prefer to know.

          11. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            “Division” is what we are seeing today and since the beginning of the “Hope and Change” double speak campaign. “Ripping the Commonwealth and Nation apart” so that Marxism may thrive is the actual intent and motive of that mislabeled campaign.

            “Division” is publicly calling an honorable man a traitor. Such acts have been known to inspire tragic results. Any true Virginia Gentlemen knows that well, and knows better than to do so.

            Quoting the actual words of Lincoln is not selective history. It is fact, consistent with his other statements and writings.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Do you think the folks that did this:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8fec712735d6fdb56afecd97db370e97bb2d49449dcb3348002574a46bebf14.png

            were not ripping the country apart and causing division?

            Do you think claiming that patriots of the South fought to preserve slavery as a way of life was honorable?

          13. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            Don’t know if that depiction above is ripping apart or distortion. I bet it was true in many instances, but horribly wrong in others.

            Patriots – once again resorting to a one size fits all convenient story to explain the great divide which burst into a Civil War. There is not one. Claiming that Soldiers of the South universally fought to preserve slavery is far more wrong and unjust than that picture above. Simplistic condemnation is not the answer. What did the slave owners from Delaware fight on the side of the Union for?

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Do you actually think slaves were brought to this country in ship cabins, wearing clothing
            and shaking hands with their new master when the ship docked as opposed to being in chains and
            being hauled off to an auction or similar? You think the actual “history” about slavery in the south
            was/is false?

            I’m not claiming that individual soldiers fought for slavery. I claiming that their military leaders did and used those soldiers in that way. Further, do you think after the war that Johnny Reb returned home and objected to the
            Jim Crow treatment of emancipated slaves and fought for equal rights for them?

          15. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            I provided to you my thoughts on that distorted depiction, but was trying to go beyond that to what has been recorded of interaction between slave and master, both north and south. No argument that such an arrival was untrue.

            Your assessment of the Confederate soldiers and officers and their intentions is unfounded and false. The easy button for callous condemnation. General Longstreet of South Carolina professed the ending of slavery while serving as a Corps Commander and 2nd in Command of General Lee’s Army.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So relating/acknowledging the “history” of the master/slave interaction depicted in textbooks and other is “divisive”?

            The Jim Crow monuments were being erected at the same time these textbooks were published and the same UDC
            had a hand in both. You don’t see that are relevant? The same UDC were activists in monuments, textbooks, naming streets and schools and military bases not only for Confederates but avowed racists and segregationists.

            I see the Confederate soldiers, like I see most soldiers with most wars we’ve been in with the urging of leaders
            to defend the country and it’s “values’, etc, etc.

            Whether a given war was justified or worthy or not is a separate issue that most soldiers were not affected by. I certainly do think how returning soldiers treated the emancipated slaves in their civilian social life very relevant given the reality of Jim Crow. You can’t fight for your country then come home and join Jim Crow in the treatment of the emancipated slaves without accountability.

  7. Chip Gibson Avatar
    Chip Gibson

    “…defending symbols of the Confederacy. It’s a losing political proposition…”. For a great many of us Americans, those whose forefathers arrived here nearly 400 years ago, fought to separate from England, and created the greatest nation in history, it is not about politics; not at all, in the least. For the liberal, it IS about politics, as politics is the path to National collapse and the perverted dream of Marxism.

    History and the great figures who define it are not “politics”, just history, to be heeded, admired, dismissed, or disliked by the individual. If one does not like the history, that dislike does not grant a charter or warrant to destroy it…unless you are an invading conqueror and your conquered are now dead or gone. Being a marginal majority liberal does not make a conqueror. Those of us who have dedicated a half century to the defense of this Nation, and Old Virginia by extension, know that and understand the make of a conqueror. Those who have instead consumed and criticized for the past half century clearly do not know that.

    Take heed, oh liberal majority of the Great Commonwealth. Your political strangle upon the land will likely soon end. All you will have to show for your feeble reign will be the desecration and damage of the rich soul of Virginia. That brief, sick history will not be erased, however. It will serve to educate future generations, to warn them of the very near end that was almost achieved. Perhaps, we should commission a new series of monuments to that era – never to forget.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      “History” requires us to be honest about it also including acknowledging when we messed up.

      We messed up when we allowed slavery.

      We don’t have memorials to Attila the Hun because he is “history” ,nor to those who killed or did great harm to others because it’s “history” and cannot be denied so statues and memorials are “okay”.

      Nope.

      Especially when such statues and memorials were an undeniable aspect of Jim Crow where not only statues, but street names, schools, even military bases were named for traitors and avowed segregationists.

      “history” is indelible. We do not burn/ban books have history we don’t like or even hate.

      We DO memorialize the things and people we revere and are proud of.

      “History” is acknowledging this picture, in terms of where it came from and who advocated it being in Virginia textbooks and what other activities those who advocated this picture did erecting monuments:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6621df9371a03130ab2880070477414ba28eee5adc1d312724cbee8d7586e504.png

      1. Chip Gibson Avatar
        Chip Gibson

        Agree, “We DO memorialize the things and people we revere and are proud of.” Precisely my point, Sir. Something or someone that you revere may offend another. Who is right? Who is wrong? Is the political majority right? Absolutely not.

        The point is to respect the opinions and memories and objects of reverence of others. This is (was) a free Nation.

        Weird picture….agree on that point, as well. Could simply be a rendering of Ralph Northam talking a vintage sailing vacation while in medical school…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Some of us are not proud at all of memorials put up to traitors, racists and segregationists by folks engaged in Jim Crow.

          We don’t “respect” that at all. We abhor it because it denigrates those today whose ancestors were the subject of it.

          What in the dooda does Ralph Northam and vacations have to do with this at all?

          1. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            You have again fallen in with the liberal mantra and trap. You label me and my ancestors and a great many others as traitors. Be careful with your words. They may return to haunt – we may be closer, at times, than you know. And, we did not own slaves, support slavery, nor follow your infamous crow. You expect others to “respect” your views when you publicly attack them with unfounded slander….traitor? Beware the glove.

            Read the history and you will then understand the fallacy of a blanket belief that the Civil War was fought over the institution of slavery. It was certainly a major factor, but was certainly not the cause. Fortunately, the flower of that tragic struggle was the ending of slavery in this Nation. Ask your liberal friends in New Jersey and Delaware, whose ancestors rejected the 13th Amendment if it was all about slavery. The vast majority of Confederate Soldiers who fought and died did not own slaves or support the institution. Why then did those “traitors” fight? I will tell you, from my own family history. They fought and died because their home was invaded and their loved ones were threatened. Traitor…?

            Read President Lincoln’s inaugural address of 1861. “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”
            This, your great emancipator? This man raised an Army and invaded Virginia. This man offered command of that Army to a brilliant, wise, and courageous officer who, through no desire or intent himself, was currently a “slave owner” in the Commonwealth of Virginia (due to recent inheritance of Arlington by his wife)! Think through all of that and then tell me that Lincoln initiated the war over slavery! If slavery was the issue, why then were there slave states within the Union until after the war was ended? My goodness, man, Washington DC was a slave district when Lincoln invaded Virginia and during the following year! And, DC remained so until Lincoln bought them in order to cleanse his own ambiguous ground. Might not the Great Emancipator have considered freeing his own slaves before engaging in a war to end slavery? Classic, concrete, irrefutable hypocrisy…unless….unless, President Lincoln did not invade the South over the cause of slavery. Unless, the loyal citizens of the Commonwealth of Virginia did not fight, die, and defeat that first major invasion….over the cause of slavery…

            Also, suggest reading about your great liberal governor who preceded Governor Youngkin. That knowledge will make my comment clear. I lived with and knew Ralph. Those who blindly voted for him as the leading democrat should have done their homework before doing so. Keyword “blackface”.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            ” You have again fallen in with the liberal mantra and trap. You label me and my ancestors and a great many others as traitors. Be careful with your words. They may return to haunt – we may be closer, at times, than you know. And, we did not own slaves, support slavery, nor follow your infamous crow. You expect others to “respect” your views when you publicly attack them with unfounded slander….traitor? Beware the glove.”

            We’re talking about what the statues represent. They’re memorials to traitors who fought against the union, racists and segregationists who acted against the interests of slaves and emancipated people for decades. It’s your choice
            to associate yourself with them but not on others to respect it.

            “Read the history and you will then understand the fallacy of a blanket belief that the Civil War was fought over the institution of slavery. It was certainly a major factor, but was certainly not the cause. Fortunately, the flower of that tragic struggle was the ending of slavery in this Nation. Ask your liberal friends in New Jersey and Delaware, whose ancestors rejected the 13th Amendment if it was all about slavery. The vast majority of Confederate Soldiers who fought and died did not own slaves or support the institution. Why then did those “traitors” fight? I will tell you, from my own family history. They fought and died because their home was invaded and their loved ones were threatened. Traitor…? Those who blindly voted for him as the leading democrat should have done their homework before doing so. Keyword “blackface”.

            No blanket belief. I DO read the history, ALL OF IT, and it’s crystal clear to me that it WAS fought over slavery.
            Many Johnny Rebs did fight and die in the civil war , fighting for a cause they believed in but the reason there
            was an army and commanders and people recruiting him was to fight a war primarily over slavery and we actually
            know this because of how the South did treat black people who had been emancipated after the war. Pretty much
            confirmed how they felt about slaves.

            If the war had ended and Jim Crow did not start, you might have something to stand on. The reality is that some
            of the same folks who fought the war, continued their racist behaviors towards emancipated – for decades as did
            their descendants, some to this very day.

            “Read President Lincoln’s inaugural address of 1861. “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”
            …………………………….”

            you got the usual “selected” history there. There was no bright line where everything got changed to what is
            right. There was war – which, no matter the words of Lincoln, DID occur and after the war Jim Crow took over.
            It took a LONG time for change to happen and it still IS happening.

            ” Also, suggest reading about your great liberal governor who preceded Governor Youngkin. That knowledge will make my comment clear. I lived with and knew Ralph. Those who blindly voted for him as the leading democrat should have done their homework before doing so. Keyword “blackface”.

            Northam WAS very much guilty of racist behavior in his younger days, as many others have who did regret it and did change afterwards.

            Northam did change and that’s to his credit IMO. And credit to any and all who recognize the wrong of it and change.

          3. Not Today Avatar
            Not Today

            I love it when people who spout this foolishness fail to acknowledge that their ancestors are mine too. I didn’t get this color by ingesting bleach.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      “History” requires us to be honest about it also including acknowledging when we messed up.

      We messed up when we allowed slavery.

      We don’t have memorials to Attila the Hun because he is “history” ,nor to those who killed or did great harm to others because it’s “history” and cannot be denied so statues and memorials are “okay”.

      Nope.

      Especially when such statues and memorials were an undeniable aspect of Jim Crow where not only statues, but street names, schools, even military bases were named for traitors and avowed segregationists.

      “history” is indelible. We do not burn/ban books have history we don’t like or even hate.

      We DO memorialize the things and people we revere and are proud of.

      “History” is acknowledging this picture, in terms of where it came from and who advocated it being in Virginia textbooks and what other activities those who advocated this picture did erecting monuments:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6621df9371a03130ab2880070477414ba28eee5adc1d312724cbee8d7586e504.png

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