Were Confederates “Traitors to their Country”?

It is often said by commenters of this blog — and elsewhere — that Robert E. Lee and others serving in the Confederate army were “traitors” to their country. Whatever contributions they made to national reconciliation or the public welfare later in life, they deserve no public honor or recognition in the form of statues, names on buildings or other memorials. In the column below Lloyd Garnett, an amateur Virginia historian, argues that the “treason” label is an anachronism based upon a faulty understanding of the evolution of the nation’s identity. — JAB


by Lloyd Garnett

Supporters of the Erasure & Destruction Commission, aka Renaming Commission, are fond of displaying their ignorance regarding the legal framework of the United States under the Constitution. Never is their misguided misapprehension more evident than when they declare that the Confederates were “traitors.”

The charge is so unarguably counterfactual as to be absurd. While forgiveness (not forgetfulness) should be our Christian impulse, it is our duty to our birthright to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” – which is to say, our individual and political sovereignty under God – to firmly set the record straight.

Setting the historical record straight is not a matter of rehashing bygones, which ought to be left as bygones. Rather, understanding the important Constitutional arguments involved then, is critical to grasping the political and social arguments now. As the current arguments by the ignorant and the malevolent, have today devolved into riotous violence, injury and destruction of property, iconic art and symbolic reminders of our worthy heritage, it should be obvious that appreciation for the concept of “government by consent of the governed” is at stake.

FIRST,  we must start with the plain language and known intent of the Constitution, which was adopted within the living memory of some, and by the parents and grandparents of many, who lived through the events of 1860 -1865.

By that Constitution, the Southern States had, as all states today have, the Right to Withdraw from the Union; to assume/resume the powers they previously delegated to the Federal government and establish such governmental arrangements as the people of the respective, sovereign States desire. Nowhere in the Constitution is withdrawal by a sovereign State prohibited. This is not an accident or an oversight by the Framers. It is intentional.

#1) The first Founding Document (“The Declaration of Independence”) was approved by all 13 colonies. In it or by it, they each and collectively declared themselves to be free and independent, sovereign States, and asserted their right of secession from Great Britain as fundamental to government by consent.

#2) When the question was posed in the Constitution Convention, whether the proposed United States could prevent a State from leaving the proposed Union, the idea was summarily rejected. James Madison (“The Father of the Constitution”) advised the assembled delegates, that any attempt to assert such control would doom ratification because the States would never assent to prohibiting the very action by which their independence was gained. As the States had so recently fought a very bloody and costly war, defeating the most powerful nation on Earth, to assert that very right, Madison’s belief is eminently indisputable.

#3) Whereas the Preamble of the preceding Articles of Confederation referred to an objective of establishing a “perpetual Union,” the Framers of the new government’s Constitution deliberately deleted the word “perpetual” from the document.

#4) The Bill of Rights, specifically Amendments IX and X clearly must include the right of the people of any State to withdraw from the Union, as it is not otherwise prohibited anywhere in the Constitution… to this day.

#5) Virginia, Rhode Island and New York all reserved the right to withdraw and/or to resume all of the powers delegated to the Federal government, as a caveat to their ratification of the Constitution and joining the proposed Union. These three States were accepted by their sister States into the Union with this caveat. As the Constitution specifies that all States must be treated equally, the caveat demanded by Rhode Island, New York and Virginia was thus automatically applicable to ALL of the States.

#6) All of the States ratifying the new Constitution, had to first secede from the previous government under the Articles of Confederation. This they each did independently, with Rhode Island being the last to secede from the first and join the second, in 1790, three years after the first state, Delaware did so. By seceding from Great Britain and again, from the government under the Articles of Confederation, it is manifest that the overarching right of secession was embraced by them all.

#7) It was, therefore, clearly and universally believed that the sovereign States had the right to withdraw (secede) from the Union. The right of secession was even taught at West Point, using the textbook A View Of the Constitution of the United States, by William A. Rawle, who was one of the foremost Constitutional scholars of the day. A native and lifelong resident of Philadelphia, Rawle was personally well acquainted, met and freely corresponded with a number of the Framers.

#8) Acting in Convention, the New England States asserted their right and threatened to secede at least 4 times – over the Louisiana Purchase of 1803, the War of 1812 (Which war those States effectively “sat out” and did not participate.), the War with Mexico, and the admission of the Republic of Texas as a sovereign State. No one questioned the New England States’ right to do so.

SECOND: Therefore, having the Right to Secede and to form a new government of their choosing, South Carolina and the six States, who first joined her, had the right to defend themselves against a hostile military invasion and naval blockade of South Carolina’s only deep water harbor and most important access to existential international markets. (As well as to resist the massive, violent, overland military invasions that were launched upon them soon after.)

“But, but, …” some irrelevantly feel compelled to declare, “the Confederates fired the first shot at Fort Sumter!” Apparently, they hold that by “firing the first shot” a country is guilty of starting a war, regardless of provocation.

By this logic, the United States was guilty of starting the War with Japan! In the early morning of December 7, 1941, before any attack on Pearl Harbor was even anticipated, the U. S. Navy sank a Japanese submarine. This was the first shot fired in America’s war with Japan, and Americans fired it. No one credibly asserts that the U. S. started World War II. The comparative analogy to what occurred 81 years earlier in Charleston Harbor is solid.

As Japan was merely suspected in November/December 1941, of having launched a war fleet possibly against the United States’ interests in the Pacific, the Lincoln government was by contrast, known to have launched a war fleet to reinforce and resupply Ft. Sumter in Charleston Harbor. By International Law, all countries have sole jurisdiction over their harbors and Charleston Harbor was subject to the jurisdiction of the CSA.

The purpose of Lincoln’s blockading and reinforcing fleet was not to put down a rebellion or insurrection, as he claimed. Rather, the new Confederacy wished only to withdraw and form their own nation, NOT to overthrow the USA. So, Lincoln’s actual intent was to defeat the fledgling new nation, before it could fully effect its sustainable independence.

The shots fired at Ft. Sumter by the Confederates, were for the purpose of defending its harbor against further attack and blockade, as they knew additional U.S. warships and reinforcements were on the way. A successful reinforcement of Ft. Sumter would close that vital harbor and severely damage Southern independence hopes. And certainly, they reasoned that Lincoln’s military and naval subjugation efforts would not stop with just Charleston Harbor.

Thus, the Confederates having lawfully withdrawn from the Union and formed a new government and nation, according to the desires of the people of the respective sovereign Southern States, opened fire to take possession of Ft. Sumter. That action was necessary to assert the new nation’s rights, which are the rights of ALL nations to protect and defend its borders, territory, harbors and access to sea lanes and commercial interests.

When, subsequently, Lincoln announced a full scale military invasion of the 7 seceded States, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas and Missouri, until then pro-Union, were vehemently appalled by the Constitutional violation of this long-accepted right to secede from a hostile government and to govern themselves according to their consent. Those five States’ popular opinions changed virtually overnight from pro-Union to pro-secession, and they severed their Union bonds to defend their sister Southern States and themselves from illegal and violent coercion. The people of the seceded States believed they had a lawful right and a moral obligation to do so.

From the cornerstones of the Founding as detailed in The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, the building blocks of the Confederates’ intellectual fortress against the defamation of “treason,” is summed up by the following question:

IF the right of government by consent is legitimate (It is!) , and IF it is not prohibited by the Constitution (Its not!), and IF ALL nations have a right to defend themselves against foreign military and naval aggression (They do!) , and IF the former U.S.A. military, naval and civilian government officials’ previous oaths were to defend the U. S. Constitution and to obey lawful orders, etc. (They were!) , and IF by their resignations, the Southerners concerned were no longer bound by that oath (They werent!) … then how could they be guilty of treason?

The answer is that they could not because they were not.

This fact unavoidably came slowly to be understood by the victorious U. S. A.’s legal scholars, jurists,and eventually, reluctantly by its politicians soon after the exigencies of warfare had ended and the many questions and challenges of re-establishing governance began to take precedence.

After the Southern armies had surrendered or voluntarily disbanded, CSA President Jefferson Davis was incarcerated for two years, with the aim of prosecuting and convicting him of treason and then, hanging him.

In attempting to build a case against Davis, however, two successive U.S. Attorneys General, and the first two “Independent Counsels” in U.S. history, all independently concluded that Davis and the Confederates could not be justly convicted of treason.

It is believed by many that a majority on the U.S. Supreme Court believed so, as well, and were desperate to avoid ruling on the question. In his seminal The Civil War – A Narrative, Vol. III, pages 1035 -1039, Shelby Foote describes the evolution among Davis’s captors, would be prosecutors and President Johnson’s Cabinet, of the realization that Davis was not guilty of treason. Further, they rightly feared that to subject the question to a trial would result not only in Davis’s acquittal but that his acquittal would support the legality of secession!

Highly respected legal experts, in Washington City and all across the North, including, wrote Foote, the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Salmon P. Chase, had reluctantly reached this same conclusion. Caught in a legal bind, and thus out on a legal limb all by himself, Federal Justice Underwood, the presiding judge, finally dismissed the charges against Davis, using a convoluted, incoherent argument claiming justification by the newly ratified 14th Amendment, ex post facto.

Thus, by a legalistic pretense, did Justice Underwood save the bloody, deadly, costly military conquest of the Southern people, from being civilly, peacefully reversed in the Court of Law!

FOURTH… but SLAVERY!

In no way, can the issue of slavery be related to the charge of “Traitor,” which is wrongly assigned by mostly ignorant and a few malevolent accusers against the long dead Confederates. Slavery, morally wrong then as now, was nevertheless legal. And if one supported a lawful activity, it could not be grounds for a charge of treason. If one supported lawful slavery as grounds for lawful secession, even that could not be grounds for treason, either.

This part of the argument could be left at the last sentence above (PERIOD). But some, imbued with 158 years of relentless victors’ propaganda to the contrary, might require some supporting context. If so, I will attempt it as briefly as I can.

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country,” wrote Robert E. Lee, years before the war. He was probably correct about the prevailing opinion, North and even South. However loathe I may be to disagree with Marse Robert, based on my extensive reading, I believe most were amazingly ambivalent. And if there was any cause that might justify a war, Ending Slavery should arguably lead the list … IF … and ONLY if … it could NOT be peacefully dismantled.

Here, we should note that a nationwide, orderly, peaceful emancipation of the slaves was never seriously put forth. Some Southerners freed their slaves voluntarily and without compensation. (This commendable act was not without financial hardship, and could be ruinous. The cost to Robert E. Lee’s family of freeing 192 or so slaves, for one example, is estimated to have been between $8 and $12 million in 2023 dollars.) So, some Southerners talked of government  sponsored, compensated and gradual emancipation to allow for peaceful and efficient societal adjustment. But the Northern interests, having decades before rid themselves of slavery, mostly by selling their slaves via New England slave traders, would not hear of it.

In lieu of peaceful and orderly emancipation, a few Northern “radical abolitionists” actively funded and supported violent abolition, such as John Brown’s infamous, murderous rampages in Kansas and Virginia. Prior to John Brown’s Raid on Harpers Ferry, there were more Emancipation Societies in the South than in the North. But the celebratory Northern reaction to “Bleeding Kansas,” Brown’s murders and the refusal by Northern States to extradite escaped participants and co-conspirators, resulted in a hardening of Southern attitudes. White Southerners, outnumbered in some communities by Blacks, were understandably fearful of bloody revolts and vengeful reprisals, such as John Brown’s, Nat Turner’s, Denmark Vesey’s, a half dozen others from New York to Louisiana, and the most “successful” genocidal bloodbath in Haiti. Thus, did the previously growing, general Southern appetite for emancipation begin to dramatically wane.

Without getting too deep into all of the complexities and myriad views of slavery, who profited, the tangled interests, whether and how to end it, etc., suffice to say with respect to the specific charge of treason: Slavery was legal from before the beginning, to after the end of the war.

When the war was launched by Lincoln to “preserve the Union”, there were seven Confederate states, all of which permitted slavery, and nine Union states that permitted slavery. There were more Union “slave states” than Confederate “slave states” when the war was started. Five “slave states” joined the Confederacy upon Lincoln’s announcement of war to prevent secession. Four “slave states” remained in the Union. Later, a fifth “slave state,” West Virginia, would secede from the Confederacy and join/re-join the Union.

Slavery would not become illegal in the United States until the ratification of the 13th Amendment, which occurred AFTER the war was over. Ironically, the first state to ratify the Constitution, Delaware, which remained in the Union throughout the war, was the last state to end slavery after ratification of the 13th Amendment.

So, if support of lawful slavery were somehow tantamount to the crime of treason, the slave-holding Union states of New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri (claimed by both the Union and the Confederacy), and later, in West Virginia (admitted to the Union during the war as a “slave state”) … and in the slave holding territories of Oklahoma and New Mexico, would have suffered no end of prominent gallows.

At no time, did Lincoln or the Republican Congress declare that ending slavery was an objective of the war. In fact, Lincoln specifically, adamantly said the opposite many times. Lincoln even said in his first inaugural address that he supported adoption of an Amendment to the Constitution, which would ensure that slavery would be perpetually allowed by the Constitution. Known as the “Corwin Amendment,” it was passed by the Republican Congress, but rejected by the Democrats, North and South.

The Republican Congress’s official “War Aims Resolution” did not even mention slavery, much less declare abolition as an objective.

As for the much vaunted and ballyhooed “Emancipation Proclamation,” only those who haven’t carefully read and analyzed it, fantasize that it freed a single slave anywhere.

To put the bizarre allegations of the “slavery = treason” connection away: When the war was started to prevent Southern independence, there more slave states in the USA than in the CSA. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves, and West Virginia was admitted to the Union as a “slave state” during the war, and after the Emancipation Proclamation was published. Slavery remained legal in the Union, until after the war. Lincoln specifically stated ending slavery was not an objective of the war. And the Republican led U. S. Congress formally omitted any mention that the abolition of slavery was a war aim.

The charge of “treason” against the Confederates is refuted by facts and logic. Neither secession, which was lawful, nor the institution of slavery, which was also lawful, constituted rebellion, insurrection or treason by the lawful authority of the governing U. S. Constitution.

We should not stand quietly by as “know nothings” distort our history, defame our ancestors and mischaracterize the essence of government by consent of the government. Grave harm will fall upon succeeding generations of Americans, regardless of ancestry, if we do.

PLEASE NOTE: This began as an informal email conversation among friends, a couple of whom asked me to clean it up for submission to the esteemed Abbeville Institute. I hope I haven’t bored you to sleep, but if I did, I hope you at least got a good nap from it. All errors of fact and conclusions, are mine alone and if any are noted, I humbly apologize in advance. Frankly, I was writing from memory and did not double check a single source. All unassailable facts and logic, I have merely remembered from the works of many great historians, patriots and thinkers. As I’ve been reading about the events in question for over 60 years, I wish to express my debt and gratitude to far more people than is possible. However, among those still with us, who continue to contribute their hard work, research, clear thinking and inspiration to understanding these important matters, I sincerely thank Clyde Wilson, H. V. (Bo) Traywick, Jr., Philip Leigh, Samuel Mitcham, Jr., Boyd Cathey, Thomas DiLorenzo, Gene Kizer, James and Walter Kennedy and the indefatigable Ann McLean… along with a regiment of like-minded friends and family too numerous to list by name.

This essay is republished with permission from The Abbeville Institute website.


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Comments

62 responses to “Were Confederates “Traitors to their Country”?”

  1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “If Virginia stands by the old Union, so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”

    Robert E. Lee

    1. killerhertz Avatar
      killerhertz

      People have to stop thinking about secession wrt states. People are already beginning to secede in their minds. There’s little that binds everyone together in the USA, so it’s only a matter of time.

      The US constitution is a document that has no legal binding to an individual. It was signed by dead men. It’s not like it’s even followed by the government anyway.

    2. The sentence preceding your quote was, “I still think my loyalty to Virginia ought to take precedence over that which is due to the Federal government; and I shall so report myself in Washington.” The sentence following was, “I know you think and feel very differently. But I can’t help it. These are my principles; and I shall follow them”

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        The question posed by this article was whether secession was actually a right retained by the states under the constitution. Lee clearly says he does not agree that it is. Placing one’s loyalty with a seceding state in violation of the Constitution over the country clearly make one a traitor to that country. Lee seems to understand that and accept it.

        1. Donald Smith Avatar
          Donald Smith

          The CNC said that no Confederates who served voluntarily for the Confederacy warrant commemoration by the Department of Defense. Many career soldiers and sailors (to include Dwight D. Eisenhower, who considered Lee one of America’s greatest figures) have rejected the CNC’s spiteful, narrow take on America’s heritage.

          Lee and many Confederates warrant commemoration—just as British Loyalists and Native Americans who fought the U.S. Cavalry do. They are all part of America’s military heritage. E plurubus unum—out of many, one.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Sorry, I agree with the CNC on this one. Part of the deal of seceding and fighting for the Confederacy is one cedes the ability to ever be honored as a hero by the US. They knew this going in and hundred of thousands of our soldiers died as a result of their decision and by their hand. It is too late to claim to be a honorable American after that.

          2. VaNavVet Avatar
            VaNavVet

            Lloyd appears to be the master of hyperbole!

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      The pardon and amnesty issued by Andrew Johnson was for “the offence [sic] of treason against the United States”.

      Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

      1. WayneS Avatar

        A purely political and essentially meaningless move.

        No Confederate was ever convicted of treason as a result of his/her actions during the civil war. Why would someone need to be pardoned for a crime if they were never convicted of said crime?

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          They were pardoned for treason. The presidential pardon can be given before a charge/trial. Hell, according to some, before the commission.

        2. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          William Bruce Mumford was the only individual to be charged and convicted of Treason during the Civil War.

          Jefferson Davis, was the only member of the Confederacy that was charged with Treason.

          In another historical tidbit and irony, John Brown was convicted and executed for Treason (Harpers Ferry). His rebellion was quashed by none other than LTC R.E. Lee.

          1. WayneS Avatar

            Alas, Johnson’s pardon came a bit too late to help Mr. Mumford

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            True, but Mr. Mumford wasn’t a solider, sailor, marine or even member of the Confederacy. He was a gambler that had the unmitigated gall to remove a United States Flag on the mint in New Orleans (April 26, 1862) when the Union was attempting to occupy it.

            Charged with “High Crimes and Misdemeanors” and tired under military tribunal as a result of Martial Law he was convicted of treason and hung (June 7th, 1862).

        3. Donald Smith Avatar
          Donald Smith

          “Why would someone need to be pardoned for a crime if they were never convicted of said crime?”

          Well, if the government was restricting their liberties and their ability to earn a living, at some point they might be willing to accept a pardon, if that’s what it took to feed their family again.

          You DO get that, right?

        4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          A good question that perhaps Gerald Ford could have answered…

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, it’s been two years since 2021 and the DoJ has yet to pierce the blood-brain barrier between the brawn on the Capitol steps and the White House.

            The fact that any attempt at a trial would have used courts that had to be reestablished in a war zone had a lot to do with any delay.

        5. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          They weren’t convicted because the war left the court system in a shambles in the Southern states.

      2. Donald Smith Avatar
        Donald Smith

        If there was a slam-dunk case against the Confederate leadership for treason, then how come the US government couldn’t convict Jefferson Davis of it, after the war, while they had him in custody? They tried to try him for treason, but couldn’t make a case.

        I’ll eat my chicken dinner while you come up with a response.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          It’s not clear to me why Carol deleted my response**, since it was germane, and stated the reason why things took 4 years. Sam Chase, and the incompetence of the court system left in a tumult after the war had a lot to with constant delays and the eventual extension of the amnesty to all.

          “The risk of losing, or even winning was too great. National reconciliation and all that rot.
          The question of treason, and the cover of “right of secession” was answered two months later in Texas v. White.
          BTW, a dismissal is not an acquittal. And in the cases brought it was dismissed without prejudice. It could have been refiled. Probably still can be. In absentia is a thing.”

          ** It was probably because she didn’t understand the reference to “eating crow” at the end.

      3. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        Smith’s call to arms may prompt a reply that the leadership of the CSA were the original sovereign citizens immune from all governmental authority.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Funny thing, from what I gathered, is that, for the crime of treason, no one was out for blood. The eventual judge made some remarks, which would have disqualified him, about just financially ruining Davis. Davis had more than a few allies in the North.

          But sheesh, the war really screwed up the court system. Davis’ apparent immunity stemmed from how totally lacking the DoJ was with judges and prosecutors.

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Funny thing, from what I gathered, is that, for the crime of treason, no one was out for blood. The eventual judge made some remarks, which would have disqualified him, about just financially ruining Davis. Davis had more than a few allies in the North.

          But sheesh, the war really screwed up the court system. Davis’ apparent immunity stemmed from how totally lacking the DoJ was with judges and prosecutors.

        3. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Funny thing, from what I gathered, is that, for the crime of treason, no one was out for blood. The eventual judge made some remarks, which would have disqualified him, about just financially ruining Davis. Davis had more than a few allies in the North.

          But sheesh, the war really screwed up the court system. Davis’ apparent immunity stemmed from how totally lacking the DoJ was with judges and prosecutors.

    4. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Lee may have been right while still supporting succession.

      Here’s my take …

      Succession was not a Constitutional right. Just like abortion, the Constitution did not specifically allow or prohibit succession. That leaves the matter with the 10th Amendment which states, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Texas v. White. The session documents were declared “absolutely null”. This means that the premises are so totally flawed that any objection, e.g., “Hey! You got slavery in my treason,” invalidates them.

        The reason for declaring them null is not in overruling an argument based in the 10th Amendment, but in sustaining the very first sentence.

      2. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        The absence of Constitutional authority on an issue is not evidence of the document’s failure. In addition, combining such absence of individual rights and states rights clouds the discussion. For example, Justice Douglas’s citation to a penumbra of individual rights not specifically mentioned (with respect to sexual relations in marriage) remains a viable protection to the present. That conclusion by Douglas is a type of equity authorized by the Constitution. Similarly, whether states possessed a right to secede would be a matter of judicial interpretation. Individual rights as reflected in the first ten amendments signal a priority of interests not necessarily any of equity.

  2. WhatMeWorryVA Avatar
    WhatMeWorryVA

    Fantastic article. Now if the know nothings could only read…..or would choose to.

  3. WayneS Avatar

    Your article has a “SECOND” and a “FOURTH” but no “THIRD”.

    Is there a piece missing?

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      More than one.

  4. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Yes.

  5. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    There are some serious factual inaccuracies in the above. But that’s not surprising in that the Abbeville Inst. is a neo-confederate org.

    1. WayneS Avatar

      Strictly for entertainment purposes, will you be kind enough to list a few of those serious factual inaccuracies?

      1. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        Strictly for heuristic purposes, I will not.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          “Strictly for heuristic purposes, I will not.”

          Although your choice not to respond is entirely yours, it seems a strange use of ‘heuristic’ as your stated purpose.

        2. WayneS Avatar

          Oh, it wasn’t for me. I wanted to watch other people fight over them…

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            :-). Maybe when I’m not buried at work:-)

          2. WayneS Avatar

            No worries.

            I’m sure there will be other fights – possibly even today.

            😉

    2. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      Well, once you lay all the factual inaccuracies out for us, we’ll consider them. Until then…

      1. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        You’re at bat!!

  6. VaPragamtist Avatar
    VaPragamtist

    The Union forever,
    Hurrah! boys, hurrah!
    Down with the traitors,
    Up with the stars;
    While we rally round the flag, boys,
    Rally once again,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Come stack arms men, pile on the rails
      build up the campfire bright
      No matter if the canteen fails
      we’ll make a roaring night
      The Shenandoah brawls along
      The burly Blue Ridge echos strong
      To hear the brigade’s rousing song
      That’s “Stonewall Jackson’s Way”.

    2. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Come stack arms men, pile on the rails
      stir up the campfire bright
      No matter if the canteen fails
      we’ll make a roaring night
      The Shenandoah brawls along
      The burly Blue Ridge echos strong
      To hear the brigade’s rousing song
      That’s “Stonewall Jackson’s Way”.

  7. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    “Whatever contributions they made to national reconciliation or the public welfare later in life, they deserve no public honor or recognition in the form of statues, names on buildings or other memorials.”

    Well, don’t know about memorials and buildings, but if he is to be honored for his efforts at reconciliation with a statue then it shouldn’t be astride a war horse and in a traitor’s uniform.

    “… the “treason” label is an anachronism based upon a faulty understanding of the evolution of the nation’s identity.”

    That may be true, but it’s the label the 16th and 17th Presidents used when they issued pardons to the Confederates, and they were within a lifetime of the country’s birth.

  8. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    #1 – The wording is sloppy here. The Declaration was not a declaration of “secession” (withdrawal of sovereigns from a federation) but of “independence” (new sovereignty). It established that there are natural rights that govt. is instituted to protect; when govt. becomes destructive to those natural rights (e.g., no representation in Parliament), that’s when you can assert your collective right to independence. (Not when you lost a free and fair election in 1860 and you think your right to own other humans might be in danger, southern states! How’s that for a country…every time you lose an election, the part that loses can secede!)

    #2 – the Constitution supersedes the sovereignty of the states, and says it right in the first words…”We the people….” It was ratified by state conventions of the people, not state legislatures, and Madison believed that constitutional amendment was the proper way to reform govt., not secession. To flip the idea that the framers simply accepted the right to secession, why *didn’t* they then account for it in the very document that governs the union? Did they not want to avoid another bloody war? The constitution was intended to replace a weak central govt., and it spends a whole lot of time on how states become part of the expanding union, but not a word on how to leave, even though this is allegedly well-accepted right? Far-fetched.

    #3 – this is a misreading attributing a lot of significance to the absence of a word in the const. It was laid to rest by the SCOTUS in White v. Texas in 1869. The “more perfect union” line in the constitution that replaced the AofC reaffirms the perpetuity of that union.

    #4 – this interpretation was laid to rest arguably three times: There is no right to secession, as most Americans and the federal govt. believed in 1861; that debate is settled by the outcome of the Civil War in 1865; then set in stone by the SCOTUS in 1869.

    #5 – there was no conditional ratification; the const. was ratified or not, not done so conditionally, and Madison said as much in a famous letter to Hamilton.

    #6 – mischaracterization; the states declared independence from Britain by exercising their rights to self-govt. The AofC established the “union” as a political entity; the AofC didn’t “secede” from Britain (it was only ratified in 1781) and was replaced by a more powerful centralized structure embodied in the constitution.

    #7 – see above; it was at best ambiguous (then settled by war), and at worst an intentionally ignorant interpretation of precedent that led to an immoral war.

    #8 – these attempts by NE were never serious threats to the union. Had they been, they may have been met with the same force the Whisky Rebellion had been when Washington himself rode out to put down the insurrection. The most significant crisis prior to 1860 was nullification in the 1830s, and President Jackson correctly cited the Supremacy Clause of the const. to counter Calhoun’s interpretation of states’ rights–the federal govt. is the supreme sovereign.

    This is just the pre-civil war stuff…the civil war stuff above is also misleading and erroneous…maybe I’ll get to that tomorrow…

    1. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      You’re welcome to assert that the Southern states should have accepted your (and James McCarthy’s) interpretation of the Constitution as gospel.

      You’re entitled to your opinions, and the belief that everyone should accept them.

      But that’s it.

      I renew my challenge for you to come to the front page and make your case. Or do you prefer to continue as the Grand Poobah of the Comments Section?

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      I heard Teresa Roane speak tonight. If the two of you met on a debate stage you would be seeking lines of retreat.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Uh yeah, just like Grant sought lines of retreat. It just happened the lines were Lee’s.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          If you read the history of the 1864 Overland Campaign you will find this absolutely true. But for an odd set of circumstances.

      2. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        Was it at a confederate ball?

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          I will invite you to the next presentation. We’ve had two good ones in row. I think you would like the topics and the company.

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            I avoid the UDC crowd. But UVa has some terrific programming on the Civil War. You should take a gander sometime.

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            I do appreciate UVA’s special collections library. Loaded with some great Civil War documents. Comes without the bias of modern day UVA scholars.

    3. WayneS Avatar

      Thank you.

    4. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      OK, Part II on the Civil War stuff. Without numbering in the original post, this is more or less a rebuttal of each point in order, though it doesn’t correspond to a number in the original post.

      1. Premise of Part II of the post is that there was a clear right to secede from the Union. As previously established, there was not. At best, there was ambiguity, which was settled during the war. As for Sumter, SC wanted title from the federal govt. after secession in 1860 and before the shelling in April 1861, which was refused by the federal govt. Pres. Buchanan tried to reinforce Sumter in Jan. 1861 with unarmed merchant ships, which were fired upon and had to turn back. Lincoln reinforced the garrison in April 1861 because they were running out of food, which resulted in the prolonged shelling and surrender. So yes, SC fired the first shots. Let’s also compare and contrast Japan in Dec. 1941, which sent a secret armada to attack and destroy the American Pacific fleet, after having waged years of genocidal wars in Asia. The Pearl Harbor comparison is patently ludicrous and makes no sense.

      2. Secession was treated as an insurrection by the federal govt. And there was precedent for doing so–the Whisky Rebellion in 1794. Both that show of federal force and the suppression of secession, are constitutional under Art.1, Section 8, which allows Congress to “provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.”

      3. No, Lincoln didn’t announce “a full scale invasion.” He asked 75K enlistments to “suppress the insurrection” as provided for in the Const. (see above).

      4. The Confederacy never achieved statehood, de jure or de facto; it was never recognized by the U.S. nor any foreign power. It could not defend its borders, it could not establish sovereignty within its jurisdiction.

      5. Contrary to what is stated, many unionists (if not most) believed that the leadership of the Confederacy had violated their oaths of office; this by itself is not treason, but points to a serious breach of loyalty (i.e., being a traitor). It should be noted that southern officers joining the confederacy was not required by some kind of state supreme loyalty. Many Southern officers stayed loyal to the Union, most famously Admiral Farragut, George Thomas (who said “Whichever way I turned the matter over in my mind, my oath of allegiance to my Government always came uppermost.”), and Winfield Scott. Indeed, of the nine colonels from Virginia on active duty at the time of secession, only Lee renounced his oath. So treason? Perhaps, but hard to prove (see below). Violation of one’s oath (i.e., being a traitor)? The evidence is strong.

      6. The Jeff Davis issue is where the author gets some stuff sort of right, despite the over the top hyperbole. A lot of controversy as to why JD was not tried on treason, but most likely because the U.S. didn’t want to lose such a high profile case. Govt. policy at the time was also conciliatory toward the south and southerners so the politics were not great for trying such a case. As stated earlier, the argument for secession is ambiguous at best. But ambiguity might have been enough to stave off a conviction. JD certainly levied war against the U.S. (an element of treason), but he could argue that he was not a citizen of the U.S. (the other element). That argument is a bad one, and the Confed. never achieved statehood. Nevertheless, the U.S. had in some instances used the international law of war between sovereign nations to justify its actions, i.e. treating the CSA as a different nation for the blockade and for prisoner swaps. So the defense had a chance. Note, however, that the Union easily could have convicted JD and the entire leadership of the Confed. in military courts and executed them all, but the govt. declined on the theory that civil courts would be the proper venue to heal the wounds of the nation. (Query today whether that would have set the nation on a different path.)

      7. The author states that slavery was morally wrong then as now. This is odd, because while I 100% agree with the sentiment, the Confederacy believed otherwise. The Confed. constitution, and many articles of secession, treated slavery as a positive good for enslavers and slaves alike. This is not only morally bankrupt, but a violation of the core tenets upon which the nation is founded. In short, you don’t need to look far to find the bad guys here…It was the confederacy.

      8. R.E. Lee was not antislavery and the quote used omits the rest of the statement, which is: “I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things.” Lee refused to free his father in law’s slaves, despite being freed in the latter’s will, and was taken to court for it. He freed his own slaves only *after* his estates were occupied by federal troops during the war and his slaves had been granted a measure of freedom under federal policy.

      9. Though Lincoln hated slavery, he repeatedly offered protection for slavery within slave states, discussed compensation for emancipation, and even repatriation to Africa. He offered the olive branch during the election of 1860, upon his inauguration, and even after the war started. The problem was that, despite the aforesaid, slavery by its logic had to expand to the territories to be profitable and politically sustainable (via the Senate). The South was outnumbered in the house, economically and demographically overshadowed by the north’s growth, and Lincoln had won the presidency without carrying a single southern state. What Lincoln did make clear was that there would be no expansion of slavery into the territories; this was enough to push the agrarian south toward destruction.

      10. The author lays the end of the southern emancipation movement upon northern abolitionists and fear of black rebellion. Aside from blaming the victim (slaves, duh), most historians believe the attitudes of southerners changed as the economic value of the slaves themselves had skyrocketed due to the explosion of cotton and the plantation system. All of this, by the way, started before John Brown.

      11. The notion that emancipation was never a war aim is WRONG. The Union’s war aims evolved over time, and that makes sense given the huge political constraints Lincoln faced. At the outset, Lincoln was not in a position (personally or politically) to support abolition. That changed for many reasons, but foremost is that the Union army had already de facto granted a measure of freedom to the slaves that fled to their lines in the tens of thousands (ultimately 200K served in the Union army). Then came the Emancipation Proclamation, which essentially codified what was happening everywhere Union troops occupied southern territory–slaves were being set free. By 1864, unconditional surrender of the CSA and emancipation through the 13th amendment were part of the Republican platform. It was therefore a war aim.

      12. Regarding Delaware’s ratification of the 13th amendment, the amendment takes effect if it reaches the constitutional threshold, whether or not states beyond that threshold ratify. In other words, they were not the last state to abolish slavery. Slavery had already been constitutionally abolished in 1865 because the threshold had been reached, decades before DE ultimately ratified.

      13. The Corwin amendment was a last ditch effort under the Buchanan administration to save the union, but was dead letter on arrival. States had already seceded. Lincoln never considered it a viable option, but said he had no opposition to it.

  9. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    Thanks Jim for pointing a right that all states agreed to in ratifying the Constitution. Many of the comments show that some of these commenters do not understand or refuse to understand the condition that was necessary for ratification.
    Slavery is a different issue.

  10. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    With two second great grandfathers fighting for the Union during the Civil War, I have no special feelings for the Confederacy and its causes. I see no reason to put memorial statutes to rebel generals in public spaces (battlefields and cemeteries excepted) or told hold commemorations of the Lost Cause. But I think that a level of respect is due to any common soldier absent evidence of violations of the articles of war.

    I am curious as to the answers to the question of whether members of the Continental Army and its supporters should also be considered as “traitors to their country.” Or does a different standard apply because the 18th Century rebels were successful while the 19th Century rebels failed?

    I had an ancestor who was a captain in a Maryland regiment in the Revolution and an ancestor who was a private in Butler’s Rangers, a loyalist unit in the same war.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      You don’t think our Founding Fathers were traitors to their (then) country…?

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        Applying the same logic to the facts, they were traitors to their country, Great Britain.

        Had the English put down the rebellion, my fifth great grandfather, a private in Butler’s Rangers, would not have been regarded as a traitor to the American cause and my fifth great grandmother would not have had her land seized by Pennsylvania.

        One factual difference between the two situations was that there was no agreement of the Colonies to be a part of Great Britain but there was ratification of the Constitution by the Original 13 States. Hence, there was no barrier to revolution in the 18th Century but clearly one in the 19th.

  11. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    This was a great presentation.
    What kills me is a war was fought to KEEP the confederate States in the Union, and now a war is being fought to erase the Confederate States from the Union.
    Why weren’t they just allowed to leave then, if 170 years later you posthumously declare them moral reprobates? Seems like a false inducement …

    History is complicated. It is not black and white, even though the Marxist globalists of today want to make it black and white “races.”
    All are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. All humans are 99.9% the same DNA.

    Slavery would have ended naturally. Would it have been 5 years or 35 years? I don’t know. I tend to think 15-20 years. Would that have been a better outcome? Something like one million “freed” slaves died in “freedom” in the years after the war. Was that the most humane outcome?

    Meanwhile, how come, post Civil War, why did veterans of both armies honor and respect one another? Even have reunions?

    Marxists are evil. Destroyers. And worse than those accused! Now go serve Molech and pretend to be in the position of a moral accuser of others.

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