The Watkins Bill Is Dead for Now, But It Raised Issues that Cannot be Ignored

A House of Delegates committee has spiked a bill that would overhaul Virginia’s patchwork system of proffers and impact fees, but not because lawmakers are enamored with the current system. They hope to come back next year with legislation that reflects more input from local governments, reports Sandhya Somashekhar with the Washington Post.

Remarkably, the Republican-dominated House was in agreement with Gov. Timothy M. Kaine, a Democrat, on the issue. Stated Kaine yesterday: “I can see some significant problems with the proffer system.” The governor said he would be open to a more “uniform, rational” system that helps lower housing costs.

The problem with the legislation, sponsored by Sen. John Watkins, R-Powhatan, and backed by the home building lobby, is that it set the impact fees at a ludicrously low level: $12,500 in Northern Virginia and $7,500 in the Rest of Virginia. Local governments estimate the fiscal impact associated with the construction of a new home — providing schools, roads, public safety buildings — at $40,000 or more in fast-growth jurisdictions like Loudoun and Prince William.

However, the bill offered one very powerful insight that makes it worth revisiting next year: It would have imposed impact fees on “by right” development, as opposed to collecting proffers only from developers who rezone their land. Currently, local governments get no recompense for by-right development. The downfall of the bill is that the fees it specified are so low, it is feared, that even expanding the tax base would not make up the difference.

The problem of by-right development is much bigger than most people realize. Because it gets a free ride fiscally speaking, by-right development enjoys a tremendous competitive advantage in the marketplace. That’s unfortunate because by-right development consists largely of small-scale, pod-style development — not the larger, planned communities with mixed uses and walkability that many home buyers prefer. Thus, the current proffer/fee system subsidizes the scattered, low-density human settlement patterns that consume so much energy, generate so much pollution and make public services so more expensive to provide.

In an ideal world, local governments would dispense with negotiated proffers and apply impact fees on all development, thus broadening the tax base and creating a level playing field between rezoned and by-right projects. But the impact fees would be set high enough to recompense local governments for the expense of widening roads, extending water and sewer, building new schools, erecting public safety buildings, buying new fire trucks, etc.

The challenge is to devise an agreed-upon methodology for calculating thoses costs and setting a reasonable fee to cover them. Different municipalities make their own calculations. Which costs do they include? Which costs should they include?

That raises another critical issue: Should impact fees be uniform? I would argue that not all human settlement patterns are created equal. Some projects are configured in such a way as to pose less financial burden on the community — fewer Vehicle Miles Driven per resident, few lane-miles of road to maintain, fewer miles of water and sewer pipeline to run, shorter distances for school buses to drive, shorter response times for police, fire and rescue crews. Would it not make sense to create a fee schedule that varied depending upon the impact of the development project in question?

Embedded in the empirical question of what expenses the fees cover is the philosophical question of what they should cover. Should new development bear the full fiscal cost of providing public infrastructure, or should existing residents bear a share of the burden as well? Does loading up the full fiscal burden onto new development make housing unaffordable, creating a whole new set of issues and problems?

However one answers these questions, it is clear that the Watkins bill does not address them. The task of devising a fair and reasonable methodology for calculating and setting impact fees, I would submit, should be the top issue on the agenda for whomever studies the issue later this year.


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21 responses to “The Watkins Bill Is Dead for Now, But It Raised Issues that Cannot be Ignored”

  1. Anonymous Avatar

    By-right development rights generally came about as a quid pro quo to long time landowners who were being downzoned. The “by-right” prvisions were written in to ensure that they might have a couple of plots for family dwellings and to ensure that not all the value was taken out of the land through downzoning, such that it woud trigger a “taking”.

    As long term landowners, these are not people who are taking a free ride, but rather have been giving one, sometimes for decades.

    To now require large proffers against development rights that were previously promised, and negotiated in exchange for the ability to downzone other properties, amounts to double jeopardy once again.

    It is reneging on a deal and it is taking back part of what was previously promised. Once again, those that preserved their land the longest will be the ones punished the most.

    RH

  2. Anonymous Avatar

    http://www.gapminder.org/

    Bacons Rebellion frequently argues that scattered, low-density human settlement patterns consume more energy, generate more pollution and make public services so more expensive to provide.

    Gapminder offer the ability to test this theory. Gapminder offers a series of graphs with data for many countries, which you can animate over time, AND choose your own axes.

    If you choose an x axis of per capita GNP and a Y axis of Life expectancy and then animate the graph you will see that for almost every country, at any time and any income level life expectancy increases with wealth. This is visualized as a stream of bubbles on the graph, traveling up and to the right. If you change the y axis to infant mortality the visualization is that the bubbles travel down and to the right.

    If you change the y axis to CO2 or SO2 production, you see that they also uniformly increase with per capita GNP. What this means, of course, is that if you plot CO2 on the X axis and life expectancy on they Y axis, you can see that life expectancy increases with CO2 production (as a proxy for wealth).

    Now you can change the Y axis to % Urban Population, and you will still see that for all countries at every period in time the trend is that higher urban population is associated with more CO2 production.

    In other words, as a general rule you cannot say that a denser settlement pattern leads to less pollution unless you can account for changes in wealth. So, if you plot % Urban population on the y axis and per capita GNP on the x axis, you will see that there is an association and a trend, up and to the right, but the association is not as strong and neither is the trend, when compared to the graph of % urban population vs CO2 production.

    I suppose there is enough information to make the argument mathematically, but for a qualitative kind of argument, these graphs are compelling. I suggest hat we re-think the argument that denser urban settlement is more efficient, less polluting, and less expensive. If that was true you could plot % urban population against per capita income and expect to see urbanized countries getting richer faster, but some of the countries gaining wealth the fastest are not highly urbanized, like Thailand, for example.

    Now for some real fun.

    You can plot CO2 production against CO2 production and watch how the various countries change over time. Naturally The US is near the top right. But as time progresses you can see that those much vaunted “efficient) European countries (along with China and anybody else whose GNP is increasing) are gaining on us at a rapid rate, while our own production is stagnant or shrinking.

    You can plot % urban Populaion against % urban popluation and see which countries are gaining urban population the fastest. And knowing that urban population is associated with CO2 production we can predict from this which countries will have the greatest increases in CO2 production.

    It isn’t the US.

    Then you can plot total population against % urban population. When you do this you find that only a handful of countries have a greater % of urban population. UK and Germany are among them, but France, Italy, Spain, and Japan are not. Naturally, Hong Kong and Singapore are way out there, but surprisingly, they keep company with Puerto Rico, Kuwait, and Belgium. But the teeming hordes of China, India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan have a low urban density. Putting this graph in motion the large bubbles to the top and left that move to the right the fastest, will be the locations where CO2 production increases the most. In that regard, Nigeria, Russia, Brazil, Indonesia, Mexico, Korea, Turkey, and China appear to be increasing urban density the fastest, an therefore will have the greatest increases in CO2 production. US is about stable.

    Who would have thought that Puerto Rico would turn out to be a model of urban efficiency? Anyone know what their transit system looks like? Maybe it’s time to re-think some dogma.

    RH

  3. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Ray, Gapminder is a fascinating way to visualize data, and I recommend it to everyone.

    However, your commentary is based upon a couple of false premises. First, in my critique of dysfunctional human settlement patterns, *density* is only one factor. The degree of scatteration — is growth scattered or contiguous — is equally important. So is what I call connectedness, the degree tow hich the elements of development connect efficiently to one another from a transportation perspective? Another critical factor is the degree to which land uses are separated from one another, regardless of the density of their setting.

    Furthermore, I’ve never said that higher density is always more efficient than lower density. There may well be an optimum level of density somewhere between suburban Atlanta and downtown Manhattan. But a whole lot more of the country has been developed over the past 50 years to look like suburban Atlanta than it ha Manhattan. The optimum is somewhere greater than what prevails in American suburbs today. I’ve never said we need to model the world on Hong Kong.

    One last point, regarding the relationship between CO2 emissions and GNP per capita. Yes, there is a strong correlation, but it’s far from perfect. Gapminder shows a large cluster of countries with per capita GNPs only slightly lower than the U.S.’s but with significantly lower CO2 emissions. We could be a lot more energy efficient than we are now, and it wouldn’t hurt our standard of living at all.

  4. Anonymous Avatar

    I agree that the Gapminder data is not specifically relevant to your argument.

    I only meant it as a third party way to consider some things. Yes, we can reduce CO2 emissions, but we can’t get away from the fact that for every country and evey time period increasing income is associated with increasing CO2. Some more than others, true enough, but that’s going to be a hard association to break.

    There are relatively few countries that are more urbanized than the U.S., and some of those that are have very special geography – like Australia.

    But, the gapminder clearly shows that more urbanization is associated with more CO2, and that implies, (to me anyway) less efficiency, not more.

    It also clearly shows that more urbanization is NOT closely associated with greater wealth or growth in wealth, which again suggests less efficiency, not more.

    I don’t know how to find out, but I suggest that if and when we devise a fair and reasonable method of setting impact fees, if it is wrong, someone will find the data to prove it, and they will get changed.

    Eventually, impact fees will lead to the settlements that ARE most cost effective and efficient, because the ones that aren’t will need the highest fees. But only if we don’t deliberately set something up that prevents it, based on preconceived notions.

    Overall, I’m happy to see someone raise the philosophical questions involved over what they should cover. When a house lasts 150 years it seems wrong to use a point in time method to prevent its ever being.

    For example, I see the DC sewer authority just REJECTED an additional fee to cover the cost of repealing old pipes. No doubt that will raise the cost of proffers and fess on new construction.

    I just think we have along way to go before we really understand what makes sense and waht doesn’t.

    RH

  5. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH – impact fees have absolutely nothing to do with CO2… except in the most arcane and tenuous basis…

    unless you can bring up a graph that shows CO2 verses impact fees!! 🙂

    and your basic premise about Co2 is not correct either..

    You could pick something like DDT or leaded gas or pick any other pollutant and chart it… and you not see anything that makes any sense at all because there are lots of other variables involved.

    the reason you don’t see disparities in Co2 is because it is not treated as a pollutant right now and thus there are no countries that have restrictions that could be compared to ones that don’t.

    Pick a pollutant that has been outlawed in some countries and not others and chart it against deaths or GNP or whatever.. and you may have something more relevant.

    but none of this has anything to do with the thread title … right?

  6. Anonymous Avatar

    The basis for my post was JB’s claim that some settlement patterns are more efficient than others. The Gapfinder data suggests (to me) that on a gross basis this isnt true. It doesn’t appear to be true for CO2, SO2, income, or health.

    JB is arguing that impact fees shou NOT be uniform because some settlement patterns are more efficient than others. Therefore, we need to resolve the task of devising a fair and reasonable methodology for calculating and setting impact fees.

    All I’m saying is that we would hate to set up graduated impact fees that we THINK will result in more efficient settlement patterns, only to find out later that we actually fall into the same kinds of relatinships suggested by the gross gapfinder data: more density means more energy use, more pollution, and not necessarily more money.

    ————————–

    I agree and even mentioned that association and correlation isn’t the same as causality: that many confounding factors should be considered.

    But, CO2 is not just any old pollutant: it is stoichiometrically related to energy usage, and energy usage generates wealth. What the data shows is that this has been true (plus or minus a little) for every country, of every type, in every region, and evey time frame. SO2 is related to energy use too, but not as much, since some region suse more coal than others, and you can see this effect by animating the data. Other pollutants might not correlate at all, but that isn’t the point. CO2 does correlate, an strongly.

    You can wave your hands all you want, I doubt that partiular fact is going away (until we make all, or much of, our energy without using carbon). It is, however, that (plus or minus a little) that gives us the opportunity for some conservation. Once you get outside of that range, you are decreasing someone’s wealth, and wealth is closely associated with health. Which is clearly shown with the data.

    So, as the US and world goes into an economic slowdown, we will use less fuel, produce less CO2, and earn less money and consume less stuff. Those who disapprove of overconsumption and pollution should love this.

    You could, of course, switch to non carbon sources of energy, but they are more expensive (for now, in today’s dollars) and that means you use less energy, create less wealth, spend more of what you do make on energy, and less on other things – like health.

    Some people claim that being cheaper is an illusion: conventional fuels are only cheaper because we do not account for the full costs. They think that ALL of the increase in wealth we have seen is offset by unaccounted losses in the form of resource depletion. (Not to mention pollution, climate change, etc.)

    OK, fine. What does that say? It says that if we pay full users costs for the resources we take, then our growth in wealth will be flat. Put another way, it means there is a renewable limit on what we can earn: you can only grow so much corn per acre. And, you might need that acre for something else.

    You can see this in the moving graphs, too. Some countries are pretty much maxed out: they sit an that top right corner and don’t move much. If you plot income aganst income, the graph is fascinating. What you see is a long thing packtrain of small countries, slowly increasing their wealth. Then around 1750 the US gets in line and then takes off like a shot (and grows like crazy) compared to the rest of the train, until near the end of the data, when everyone else starts to catch up.

    ——————————

    All I’m saying is that if we think we can use proffers to create more effficient settlement patterns, it would help if we knew what we were doing.

    The remark about increasing CO2 being associated with increasing health is obviously screwy, and I deliberately stated it that way because it is shocking. But, CO2 is associated with energy, energy is associated with wealth, and wealth is associated with health.

    Wealth and health is what government is all about, so we woulf hate to have them screw up their job by setting the wrong proffers. As Bacon say’s, it might bring up a whole bunch of other issues.

  7. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    … NOT on the table…

    graduated impact fees keyed to settlement pattern type

    What IS on the table is proffers and impact fees in Virginia that have nothing to do with settlement patterns or CO2 or SO2.

    They’re going to take a year to “study” the issue.

    As far as I know – despite Jim and EMR, and perhaps other smarter growth advocates, there is virtually no credible data or information that could be used to advocate for a graduated fee for “more efficient” settlement patterns but even then……

    I would be genuinely shocked to see even the smart growth folks attempt to convince legislators in Richmond to think about impact fees relative to settlement patterns.

    For one thing, about half of their brains would explode just trying to reason their way through the concept….

    Remember.. these are the same guys who are not at all interested in Demand Management of electricity or other strategies that tend to delve into “efficiency”.

    besides.. they’re gonna have their hands full trying to wiggle their way out of the transportation authority kerfuffle… 🙂

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    perhaps .. the one year hiatus IS the perfect opportunity to put together a decent argument for tying impact fees to settlement patterns…

    I not that the Homebuilders, as a concession to wait a year.. asked that the road impact fees be delayed also.

    I don’t what affect any of this might have or not have on UDAs… but it’s possible that some will argue that UDAs be treated differently with respect to impact fees that land that is not so designated.

    But I would point out – that just in the process of going through this type of discussion – is going to mean that not all land will be treated the same in terms of development rights…

    and in that regard.. RH.. how would you feel about that?

    should all land – regardless of where it is located be subject to the same impact fee structure?

    bonus question: do we think that localities may change the way that they do their Comp Plans and by-right zoning..and re-zonings based on how impact fees are done?

    I’m thinking this is going to be a very interesting dialog… in the coming year…

    and like I said.. an opportunity for the settlement pattern folks to “make their case”.

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Several points.

    First, the current version of the bill allows localities to waive and exempt UDA’s from the impact fees.

    Second, without impact fees, localities have no incentive to adopt transfer of development rights.

    Third, the current version of the bill imposes the same impact fee on development regardless of location.

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “that just in the process of going through this type of discussion – is going to mean that not all land will be treated the same in terms of development rights…”

    It isn’t now either, so this can only be an improvement (whether or not it improves my personal situation). I don;t see any reason that land shoudl be treated the same with respect to development rights – provided – we have independeent and uniformly agreed to ways of understanding and measuring why it shouldn’t.

    That’s going to take more than a year.

    Now, Comp plans and zoning are (allegedly) there to protect property values and minimize government costs. If we have proffers or impact fees that turn out to be fair and adequate (even if they are less than $40,000 per home), then localities will have less “reason” or at least less verifiable reason to limit development.

    But, my argument is that if we measure this stuff properly, we will/might find that urban development costs a lot more and needs higher impact fees. Even if suburban fees turn out to be $40000 per house, it might be a lot worse in urban areas.

    It may very well be a chance for the settlement pattern folks to “make their case”. Or not.

    RH

  11. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “….we measure this stuff properly,”

    no.. the homebuilders are going to lose this one… the only question is how they will lose.

    Either how growth localities will do what counties like Spotsylvania has done which is to establish a 2% growth rate for approved growth and any rezones that exceed that rate are rejected – period.

    or.. they’ll require special tax districts… for new growth .. to pay for the infrastructure needed in those districts.

    What’s NOT going to happen is something bizarre like claiming that growth increases property values and.. folks with existing properties “owe” for the increased values – (like they don’t pay anyhow when their assessments go up).

    The only way the homebuilders win is if they somehow convince the GA to force localities to accept growth…i.e. take away their ability to reject rezoning proposals – which in turn – will destroy the entire concept of Comp Plans and zoning – at which point the state will become in charge of it all.

    … the .. ULTIMATE .. Dillon Rule State … 🙂

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the homebuilders are going to lose this one… “

    To my way of thinking that kind of sentiment is at the heart of the problem. Somebody is going to win and somebody is going to lose. Winner take all as EMR calls it.

    The fact is that we need homebuilders, and we need to find a way to co-exist, so that neither side loses.

    We can’t keep making new people and not making new homes, and then blame the builders.

    You have made up your mind about how “stuff” should be measured. You are willing to completely ignore the fact that reasonable people and professionals have doubts about the current popular sentiment that housing doesn’t pay, alng with the “measurements” that “prove” the preconceived notion.

    Even you note that existing residents pay when their assesments go up. True enough, but it leaves open the question of how muchof that is due to normal inflation, and how much is due to new building and the opportunities that come with it.

    If the existing residents aren’t building anything new, (other than the occasional addition) then what causes the additional value? If they are going to benefit from new value, then why shouldn’t they pay something for it?

    One reason is that they can benefit even more by simpy saying no, which costs (them) nothing.

    We can see what the eventual result will be. In Massachusetts,the situation got so bad the state passed legislation to fine counties that have overly restrictive growth policies.

    Or, just let the housing slump go on long enough, and you will start to hear a different tune.

    (And, no, I’m not in the housing or construction business.)

    RH

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    A $40,000 impact fee is near 30% of the actual construction cost for a modest home. Why slap it all on the builders? Why not caim that autos are not paying their infrastructure costs, and put a 10% impact fee on them as well as on homes? Houses that have more cars, pay more impact fee.

    Whether they are new houses or existing ones.

    Or how about an impact fee on babies?

    There are a lot of ways to consider what causes the costs associated with new development.

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “We can’t keep making new people and not making new homes, and then blame the builders.”

    No one is saying that.

    and no matter what proffers and impact fees are charged – people DO find places to live and are not consigned to live in tent cities.

    That’s the big LIE here.

    This is not about building housing.

    this is about selling high dollar homes – and the profits that accrue from that particular market.

    Here’s a reasonable compromise.

    Any housing that is within 10% of what true affordable housing is – be proffer/impact fee – FREE.

    See.. this is not about winners and losers and it’s not about being opposed to basic housing to serve basic needs.

    this is all about money and profits by selling high-end products – subsidized by others paying for infrastructure that is directly needed.

    Basically what you’re advocating is having local folks pay for the schools, fire/rescue, roads, etc so that the buyers of high end homes can afford MORE square feet, MORE granite counter tops and more backyard pools.

    Most localities.. right now.. charge very minimal proffers for apartments – i.e. AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

    so which is it RH?

    if we give truly affordable housing a “pass” on the proffers/impact fees.. is that an acceptable compromise?

    and please.. no 1000-word rope-a-dope tomes about the “complexities” of “measuring”.

    just a simple one sentence answer..on the first line.. if you cannot restrain yourself from the 1000-word rope-a-dope response.

    🙂

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Here’s a reasonable compromise.

    Any housing that is within 10% of what true affordable housing is – be proffer/impact fee – FREE.”

    I’ll accept that as a compromise. Let me know when it happens: I’d like to build a couple of affordable homes, if they ever let me.

    “this is about selling high dollar homes – and the profits that accrue from that particular market.”

    And who is to blame here, the builders, or public officials/regulations that only allow huge homes? (Based on the mistaken belief that residential doesn’t “pay”.)

    The buyers of high end homes are local folks, too.

    RH

  16. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH – affordable housing actually exists and is built… all the time…

    and as stated – the proffers on ACTUAL affordable housing are already minimal…

    we do not have folks living in tents.

    there is not a crisis with respect to a lack of REAL affordable housing.

    What this is about is the market for UPSCALE homes…2400 square feet with granite counter tops and back yard pools..

    there are the homes that the builders are up in arms about with respect to proffers…

    .. not the affordable apartments and townhouses .. that ARE built – ALL THE TIME…

    .. this is about the “American Dream” of a upscale house on a 1/4 acre… with a upscale local school…

    and I disagree about who the buyers of high-end homes are.

    They are NOT local folks.. the folks who grew up locally and now are deputies or school bus drivers… they are almost always folks with high dollar jobs in NoVa who clog up I-95 and NoVa roads every day… and then come home .. and lobby for things like 24/7 fire/rescue.. that the folks who have lived here all their lives – never could afford – and still cannot… because they work locally for salaries that are 1/4 of the folks moving in and buying 400K homes…

    Let me make it clear. I am NOT opposed to folks getting good jobs and being able to afford 400K homes.

    What I am opposed to is characterized these folks as being “victims” of proffers to pay for all the amenities that they demand… that locals cannot afford and those same folks that you feel should have to pay for the infrastructure for those 400K homes…

    where is your concern for equity and fairness when it comes to imposing higher property taxes on folks who don’t make the salaries to start with?

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “What this is about is the market for UPSCALE homes…2400 square feet with granite counter tops and back yard pools..”

    What have you got against upscale homes? Do they require more infrastructure than affordable homes? Do they pay less in taxes?

    You can disagree all you want, but once they buy, upscale buyers are local folks.

    ALL of my neighbors and nearby friends fall in that category, because previously there was nothing there but abandoned farms. NONE of my ten nearest neighbors commute to town.

    “What I am opposed to is characterized these folks as being “victims” of proffers to pay for all the amenities that they demand… that locals cannot afford and those same folks that you feel should have to pay for the infrastructure for those 400K homes…”

    We don’t disagree about this philosophically. I’m not characterizing these people as victims of unfair proffers. And Iagree that the locals are victims if the proffers are too low. But, these upscale buyers are still victims if the proffers are higher than they should be, just as others are victims if they are too low.

    My argument is that we don’t know, and don’t have a fair, independent way to find out. And, we don’t have a reasonable and transparent way to adjust them.

    So, someone can be sitting on a buildable lot one day, and next day, for no apparent reason the proffers go up dramatically. The onely warning is a little notice buried in the legal section of the classifieds. Suddenly, the lot is no longer buildable, or it is buildable only for a much larger home.

    Then we turn around and denigrate big homes.

    My concern for equity and fairness is for equity and fairness. Proffers too high are stealing from one group and proffers too low are stealing from another.

    But, if what you are really saying is that it is OK to be unfair to the big guys, because they have more to steal and won’t miss it as much, well then say so.

    Just don’t try to make it a fairness issue.

    I have said right along that the way to raise taxes is to raise it on cash flow. Rich people have more cash flow. So there is a method that is fair, equal, and still gets more from the rich.

    You earn money, pay tax on it. Spend money, pay tax on it. You buy something and keep it, then it is yours until you sell it. No one should take that from you, no one should take one of your bundle of sticks. It is yours.

    My concern for equity and fairness says that you cannot complain about higher property taxes and brag about higher proerty values in the same sentence.

    So, if you are sittng in your small home, watching Opraqh and living on social security, no one should be able to take your home. But, at the same time, if that is what you are doing, and your home value triples, well, you can’t vary well take credit for that. that extra value had to have come from someplace else. From somebody else who was out building something, doing something productive.

    But we tend to sneer at them and call them the devil incarnate – Developers.

    My sense of equity and fairness says that if we are going to complain about property taxes going up, we have to do it equitably and fairly – considering all the factors that make taxes go up, not just the ones associated with new housing.

    If it was up to me, we wouldn’t tax property, and that would be the end of it. But, Given that we have property taxes, if it was up to me, there would be a percent cap on the dollar value an individuals tax can go up in a year. It is a matter of tranparency and preditability for homewoners, and to my mind it tis fair and equitable to expect the same for builders: give people some wrning what they are up against before you slam their fingers in the door.

    Such a cap would have the effect of giving some protection to long term owners and shifitng more costs to newcomers. But, once they are in, they get the same protection from additional newcomers: their (relatively new) taxes are eligible for the same year over year cap as yours.

    My sense of equity and fairness says it is a farce to think that average owners are paying for the infrastructure for those 400k homes. A 400k home is a bloody townhouse in some places, lets get real and talk about million dollar homes, because that’s what we are up against. My sense of eqity and fairness says the average Joe is using infrastructure paid for by million dollar homes – at least as much as the other way around.

    My sense of equity and fairness says they cut both ways, or else they are neither equitable nor fair.

    Yours apparently doesn’t. You are willing to pick a number out of a hat.

    Trust me. If property taxes went away tomorrow, I’d stop farming the day after. Then I’d go spend that energy, investment, and income on something that generates a lot more cash flow – and happily pay the tax on it.

    Property taxes are the problem, and proffers/impact fees are just the tip of the iceberg. I think you should own what you buy and be allowed to keep it.

    Then, just to be fair you undestand, i don’t think you should complain about what other people buy.

    RH

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    remember, we’re not talking about what other people buy; we’re talking about what we have to pay for when they buy and don’t pay for the infrastructure that is needed to serve what they buy.

    You’re wrong about 400K homes and locals who are deputies, school bus drivers, medical technologists, construction workers, etc who GREW UP locally and have local jobs.

    You live in a weird place -not representative at all of the outer suburbs.

    Where I live – if you drive to the rural areas beyond the reasonable reach of daily commuting – what you find is old farmhouses, double-wides and yes.. some new homes but virtually none that are 2400 high end homes unless they are owned by folks who did not grow up around here.

    These folks and their parents could not afford fancy schools or 24/7 paid-staff fire/rescue and they were content with libraries in old buildings… etc…

    These folks don’t have water/sewer service; they have well & septic and they paid for it themselves and never expected other taxpayers to pay for it…

    They travel on old narrow rural roads without shoulders.. and they share them with school buses.

    In contrast, the areas of the county that are I-95-accessible are plastered with high-end homes, fancy schools and libraries and brand new 24/7 fire/rescue facilities – many paid for directly from proffers on the upscale homes.

    This is what the folks in the upscale homes want.. and they are just fine paying for these things.

    In fact, these folks show up at budget hearings asking for INCREASES in property taxes so that “their” schools can have stadiums and more ‘activities” for their kids.

    In the meantime, the rural parts of the county continue to have 50-year old schools and mostly volunteer fire/rescue and they have to drive 20 miles to a library.

    But .. their taxes go up every year… to pay for infrastructure and services that they do not get.

    There are folks. remember .. who do not make big salaries… many work at two jobs.. just to keep their homes and have enough money for food and other expenses.

    Many do not have premium health care. Only 3 years ago, did the school system start to offer a minimal plan to the bus drivers.

    so many of these folks have to pay for their health care as it is not covered by their minimal plans.

    and then we have the folks who make money from building high-end houses .. advocating that the proffers that basically build what the folks in the high-end houses are demanding.. that those are “too high” and that the proper way to do it is to have the existing residents pay “their share”.

    All you are doing .. is putting the folks at the margins in even deeper holes when you do this.

    When their property taxes go up, they have to find something to cut out in their personal budgets… instead of having a little less money going into their 401Ks…

    when these folks get a serious illness.. they go broke overnight. You’ll see church fund raisers to help pay their expenses…

    These are the folks that you are saying DESERVE to pay higher taxes – guy – essentially so that folks who buy 400K homes can buy “more home for their money” and have the infrastructure costs of the fancy facilities that they want – paid for by someone else – paid for by the folks they call to come clean their backyard pools…

    Everyone needs to pay for what they want.

    No one is entitled to have others pay so that they can have “more”.

    You’re basically in support of subsidizing high end homes on the backs of folks who don’t live in high end homes.

    It’s the opposite of the equity and fairness that you claim you support.

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “You’re basically in support of subsidizing high end homes on the backs of folks who don’t live in high end homes.”

    That is simply not true. What is true is that I claim it is not the least bit clear who is subsidizing whom. The fact that somebody’s taxes go up doesn’t mean squat – by itself. I base my claim on independent studies from professors at various universities in several states – some of them specializing in rural and agricultural economics.

    They conclude that you simply cannot tell from first principles whether new development costs existing residents more than it provides. They say that the usual methods for making that claim amount to stacking the deck.

    As for the rest of it, you are singing to the choir.

    I agree that no one is entitled to have others pay so that they can have more, and I see that the argument cuts both directions, however much you choose to see it differently.

    All I’m saying is that we need a better method for a) establishing what the costs are and b) setting rules for when the charges can be altered – what triggers the changes.

    I have friends that make their living installing granite countertops. I hope they have more business than they can handle. And I hope they don’t have to pay more than they owe to get it.

    “All you are doing .. is putting the folks at the margins in even deeper holes when you do this.”

    Tell me about it. Who do you think you are talking to? I have to find things to cut from my budget, too. I pay my taxes, and then I help pay other peoples taxes, and my supervisors aren’t even shy about admitting it. They are proud of it. And, I drop about 25k additional every ear on the local economy, for which I get squat to put in my pocket. But, I don’t have any real choice, because the property tax alternative would kill me. I’m one of the poster children when it comes to old timers paying the new guys taxes, but I’m not crazy enough to think that proffers are going to fix the problem.

    What I hear you saying is that we already have lower proffers for apartments and affordable homes, and now we need higher ones on more expensive homes based on perceived lifestyles.

    All I can tell you is that when I look around my neighborhood, i don’t see the conditions you describe. I see fabulous homes – on well and septic. I see Mercedes sharing what are basically buggy paths with school buses. Those buggy paths have been inadequate and dangerous for decades, and the fact that they now have a few Mercedes on them doesn’t change that fact. But, if the mercedes pay for a better buggy path, the plumbers and schoolteachers and hairdressers will all use it.

    And how did they get those fabulous homes? They sold their (more modest) in town homes for fabulous profits. And those profits are driven by what? Insufficient homes or too many jobs in those locations. And, because there are only truly enormous lots available, they tend to sell at a big discount to their actual value.

    Jim Bacon is right. One reason builders put up build huge homes is because the rules they have to work under (of which proffers are only one) make it impossible to do otherwise. And, they make it much less expensive to build the huge ones than they might be, because of depressed land prices. As I’ve said before, proffers are one thing that depress land prices. Result, maybe I’d like to build a couple of modest homes. I am not allowed to, and never will be allowed to. For me and anyone who might like to live here, the “proffers” have been set at infinity.

    I don’t think that those proffers are “too high” and that the proper way to do it is to have the existing residents pay “their share”. I think there is a lot more at play than proffers, big homes, and infrastructure, but people aren’t willing to admit it. I think we just don’t know what the real economic picture is, and aren’t even willing to find out.

    That’s what I think is unfair.

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    In Golden Valley, Nevada, just north of Reno, the population boom in the Silver State has brought homeowners to an area that was once rural. A resident successfully sued to enjoin the braying of a donkey on an adjoining 4-acre lot on land that is zoned as agricultural. Although the donkey has been on the corral for seven years, most of the surrounding land is now residential.

    Should the claimant have lost because he “came to” the nuisance? Golden Valley responded with an ordinance that affirmatively informs new residents of the existence of animal noises and smells in the community. Relying on the famous Arizona precedent of Spur Industries v. Del E. Webb Development Co., perhaps a reasonable solution would be for courts to recognize the changing character of an area and put the donkeys out to more distant pasture, while requiring neighbors (or perhaps the town as a whole?) to compensate the animal owners.

    From national public radio

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Cities are responsible for the vast majority of the world’s energy use and greenhouse gas emissions,” says Janet Sawin, director of the Energy and Climate Program at the Worldwatch Institute. For instance, Indian cities, where a third of the country’s 1.1 billion people live, consume 87 percent of India’s electricity.

    Globally, one third of the population will live in urban areas, many of them in slums by 2030. Already, cities consume more than half the worlds energy and produce 80% of the GHG.”

    World Resources Insititute.

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