Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Warner Backs another Potomac Crossing

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by

James A. Bacon
in

American Legion Bridge

by James A. Bacon

It looks like the Outer Washington Beltway, which would connect with Maryland by means of a bridge across the Potomac River, is not just an idea being pushed by the McDonnell administration. Sen. Mark Warner declared on the Kojo Nnamdi radio show that he supports a new bridge himself.

Tom Sherwood, an NBC reporter and Currents Newspapers columnist, quoted John “Til” Hazel, one of Northern Virginia’s more prominent developers, to the effect that the American Legion Bridge is crowded and due to get 50,000 more vehicles the next 10 or 15 years. Did Warner, he asked, see a need for new bridges across the Potomac?

“Yes, yes,” said Warner. “We can’t keep funneling all the traffic into, you know, these few choke points across the river. But the money won’t be easy to find, he conceded. As governor he campaigned in support of a funding source for Northern Virginia transportation in the form of a half-cent regional sales tax, he said, but “I got my tail beat.” Now state transportation funds are “close to bankrupt,” the senator noted, and the federal Highway Trust Fund “is broke as well.”

But the need is there. “Infrastructure, which used to be a competitive advantage for our country, infrastructure, which, in the Capitol region, helped us grow, now is becoming a choke point and is going to kill the golden goose where the jobs are, whether it’s in Montgomery County, PG County or out in Northern Virginia, in the Dulles courthouse square.” People have been talking for 10 to 15 years and the progress, he said, “has been, at best, incremental.”

Northern Virginia’s power brokers, whether Republican or Democratic in their partisan loyalties, likely will line up behind the Outer Beltway — sometimes referred to as the “techway” — while the smart growth movement assuredly will oppose the mega-project. The Coalition for Smarter Growth makes two main points: (1) the Outer Beltway and bridge will do little to alleviate traffic congestion, and (2) the money would be better spent on easing existing congestion hotspots.

I have no problem with building a Bypass as long as those who use it and benefit from it also pay for it. I see that as unlikely. The pattern in Virginia is to tax (or toll) the general public on amorphous grounds like “economic development” and “quality of life” to pay for projects that the power brokers crave but don’t want to pay for — like the Rail-to-Dulles METRO project.

It will be interesting to see if the smart growth guys can revitalize the same informal alliance with fiscally conservative populists, like those who helped defeat the NoVa sales tax increase last time, to oppose the Outer Beltway project which appears to be regaining momentum.

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40 responses to “Warner Backs another Potomac Crossing”

  1. TMT Avatar
    TMT

    A bridge across the Potomac must connect a road of comparable size in Maryland with a road in Virginia. Unless Maryland is playing the same game, this is not going to work.
    No one in Great Falls wants a bridge and a highway cutting through semi-rural areas. Those folks have pretty strong political clout, so the bridge would need to move to Loudoun County. That probably means either Route 28 or Route 659 extended and crossing the Potomac. But it is my understanding that this crossing hits Montgomery County’s agricultural reserve. So it probably will have too much opposition to be built.
    If it is built, build it as a toll road with private money. Til is bound and determined to get taxpayers to fund a road near property he has not been able to develop. Gotta admire his resolve.

  2. Hydra Avatar
    Hydra

    Maryland wants no part of this because it interferes with their Agricultural preserve or whater it is called.

    It seems to me that Connecticut had this problem with RI, and RI could not get off the stick. Finally Conn just built an four lane road right up to the RI border where it sat unused until RI finally capitulated to the “facts on the ground” and hooked up to it. This bypassed southound Boston trafffic around Providence.

    On a related topic someone pointed out some reasons for putting tolls on 95 at the NC border. It will move truck traffic to I-81. Fule taxes from trucks are apportioned as to where they drive, not where they buy the fuel. Moving trucks from 95 to I 81 puts more truck miles and more money in the state.

    Putting the tolls farther north according to my source, has the effect of shifting truck traffic to the Harry Nice bridge and putting the truck miles in Maryland.

  3. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Nobody will ever have to worry about this. I just finished a two day meeting regarding the location of the software center I discussed in earlier comments. Not one location in Virginia made the top 10 list.

    Once the federal government cuts spending (inevitable), Virginia will have plenty of capacity on its bridges and roads.

    This is just the latest chapter in the book of clowns.

    Sadly, Jim Bacon just does not get it. He writes, “I have no problem with building a Bypass as long as those who use it and benefit from it also pay for it.”.

    The battle is on for the small percentage of taxpayers who not only cover their own costs but the costs of many others too. Michael Bloomberg gets it. The government in Utah gets it. But not Jim Bacon. He just can’t force himself to confront the facts of economics and demographics that Bloomberg, et al have come to understand.

  4. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    if you think there was/is “obstruction” in Charlottesville – you aint see nothing yet when a new beast of a highway is proposed for the Great Falls area or Maryland on the other side.

    the ONLY WAY this will have even a remote chance to go forward is going to be as a toll road and I’m in favor of an investor-grade analysis to see if it can be self-supporting as a toll road.

    and don’t look for Maryland to be warm – not after they built the ICC and as a result have had to raise tolls on other facilities to subsidize the ICC costs.

    Warner might be a good politician if he can say he supports a bridge and he knows it actually has a snowball chance..

    OR he is saying he’s support it if some funding other than gas taxes can be found.

    I’ve got a great idea.

    Let’s give that job to MWAA!

    🙂

  5. Hydra Avatar
    Hydra

    The battle is on for the small percentage of taxpayers who not only cover their own costs but the costs of many others too.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    Horse manure.

    Tonight I listened to a Wharton professor making the same comments I have made earlier.

    1. There are a lot of really small businesses but they create not that many jobs, and many of them fail, so net creation is not that much.
    2. Medium businesses, less than 100 employees, create some jobs, but it takes ten to fifteen years before they cross from the first category to the second. And they also fail.
    3. Many of these businesses are quite pedestrian. They have neither the desire nor ability to innovate.
    4. The vast majority of jobs are created by corporations. Large corporations, that are owned not by a cadre of extreme successes, but by thousands of small investors.

    All of the work and all of the investment culminates in the US gdp. Much of that is increasingly siphoned off or captured by a relative few, creating the wealth gap groveton has previously decried. Wealth that those few increasingly assert that they are entitled to. But no one gets rich all by themselves.

    I work alongside my field help. When I do, I make no more than they do, and often less. But in addition to that work, I manage the work, the supplies, and the investment, for which I earn something and they do not. That does not make me a genius or their Savior.

    The pie is getting larger. The poor are richer than ever. But they still get an increasingly smaller slice of the pie. This can not and will not continue because the ultimate result is unsustainable and unthinkable. In twenty five years the top ten percent will have substantially all the wealth, and the wealthy will be complaining that the poor do not pay their own way!

    Obviously that is not going to happen. Now the discussion is only about how the change in what risse calls the trajectory, will change.

  6. Hydra Avatar
    Hydra

    Not after they built the ICC and as a result have had to raise tolls on other facilities to subsidize the ICC costs.

    ++++++++++++++
    Which would not have occurred except for the thirty years of extra costs imposed by obstructionists.

    Like JAB I have no problem with obstructionists, as long as they pay their own way.

    At present the price of saying “no” is too low and therefore it is used too often.

  7. Hydra Avatar
    Hydra

    I am not knocking groveton. He is successful and earned it. But he is the the exception not the rule. People like him will not create the jobs the economy needs to get on track, and to the extent they do, it will take years.

  8. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “The battle is on for the small percentage of taxpayers who not only cover their own costs but the costs of many others too.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    Horse manure.”.

    Hydra … where, in my statement, is there any reference to job creation?

    The top 10% of income earners pay 71% of US federal income taxes.

    I imagine that much the same can be said for Virginia state income taxes.

    The top 10% of income earners can pretty much work and live in any urban environment.

    Why would they choose to live in a place where the traffic is a catastrophe?

    Let me answer that for you – they won’t.

    The federal money river flows through Northern Virginia and Tidewater. This attracts many of the top 10% income earners. Once this money flow recedes those taxpayers will have a choice – try to find something else to do here in Virginia or move.

    They will move.

    On a SEPARATE topic ….

    I have hired over a dozen Americans in the last 3 months. 5 in Virginia.

    My investors and I are creating jobs and it is not taking years.

    Sorry Hydra but you are just plain wrong, no matter what that professor from Wharton had to say about me.

    My company is far from alone.

    Read it and weep, Hydra:

    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/obama-talks-about-jobs-amidst-silicon-valley-talent-wars/

    In my opinion, Virginia is broken beyond the possibility of repair with regard to these kinds of opportunities.

    That’s a shame since states like New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Utah, Colorado, Pennsylvania and Maryland are all joining California in benefiting from this tech surge.

    Of course, those states are not weighed down by the Clown Show.

  9. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    I’ll bet dollars to donuts WHERE the opposition for a new crossing will come from… and it won’t be just the Sierra Weenies…

    ;-0

  10. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: small businesses…

    yes.. Hydra makes an excellent observation…

    we’re talking about cubby-hole pizza joints… “nails” , baseball card or electronic games…

    in contrast – companies like Dollar General – that also sell JUNK are going great guns… to the point where WalMart is considering a new kind of store with a Dollar General footprint.

    DG is poaching the cheap but high profit junk part of their business..

    but take a look in any strip shopping center and you’ll be looking at the bulk of all those “small business” jobs… and few of them will ever become more than mom/pop operations… and as long as they can pull down 50-200K and form an S corp for tax purposes.. they are fine…

    are they the economic engine of the country? only if you believe horse manure is a delicacy.

  11. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “I’ll bet dollars to donuts WHERE the opposition for a new crossing will come from… and it won’t be just the Sierra Weenies…”.

    It won’t be from me.

    First, you should get a map. The original beltway runs down the border of McLean and Great Falls. The Dulles Toll Road skirts Great Falls. Georgetown Pike and Rt 7 run through Great Falls. Life goes on.

    If anybody objects, I’d expect it to be Flour and Transurban. They spend billions on a HOT lane highway and the state builds another beltway just a few miles away? Ha ha.

    Regardless, there has been 20 years of debate of a 6.2 mile bypass in Charlottesville. I’ll be 200 by the time Virginia, Maryland and the feds decide how to build another Potomac crossing.

    When I lived in a house I owned in the Falls Church area of Fairfax County they widened the beltway to add a deceleration lane. To do this, they cut down a dense patch of trees beside the road. I went from looking at trees through my backyard window to looking at the beltway. Like I said, life goes own.

    Somebody’s got to generate the surplus that the deficit citizens piss away. And generating that surplus requires progress … with all the inconvenience that entails.

  12. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    I’m actually in favor of self-determination for localities and regions. What I’m opposed to is the same thing that TMT is and that is a state level slush fund for the politically adept developers to access for their land development ideas.

    that’s why I do support toll roads and investor grade studies because they are, IMHO, a more legitimate and trustworthy indicator of “need”.

    I think they should toll the Charlottesville Bypass and with that money do a correct job of sound mitigation instead of “on the cheap” which is the typical way that VDOT does businesses when there are impacts.

    a toll on that bypass will preserve it and protect it from being co-opted for residential and commercial development also.

    build on need – and do a fair and equitable job in terms of impacts to property owners.

  13. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    I also support McDonnell’s efforts to actually do something about transportation but his efforts, so far, do not include a fundamental change in how we do new roads – and no real answer to the lack of sustainable funds to build.

    He “finds” the stranded money and the Charlottesville case clearly shows how money does get stranded….

    but the bigger problem is that VDOT tries to build road on the cheap by going around expensive properties and then trying to take a new road through a residential area or a park highly valued by the community.

    for instance, in Cville – they want to save money by elevating the road.

    The better way to integrate a road like that in an existing residential area is to cut and fill it but it’s more expensive to do that.

    but if you elevate it – it becomes a big intrusive thing that impacts far more people – and will generate far more opposition.

    using tolls would generate the money to do the job right – a technique known as context-sensitive design that FHWA encourages in areas when there are high impacts from new roads. VDOT even makes a big deal about it – in isolation… but seldom talks about it with roads like the Cville – because it will increase the price and they’re trying to do it as cheap as possible.

    So Groveton talks about a willingness to invest in infrastructure – and I agree but infrastructure needs to integrate with the locale so that it does not great harm… and for the harm it does do – fairly compensate those affected – including those who suffer what is known as “constructive” impacts – like noise and visual.

    Groveton supports local-determination – I do too and when you do business that way – new roads have local decision-makers – local ELECTED decision-makers where the folks affected have some level of accountability with respect to the folks building the road.

    Imminent Domain is also a more community-based process when done by local elected over a VDOT Richmond unelected and faceless bureaucracy.

    Warner falls short on two key issues:

    1. – how does this crossing fit into a road that would be justified to be of statewide and national significance?

    you do need to have what is known as logical termini – which is where and how such a new road would integrate into the existing road network.

    supporting a crossing alone – without some basic concepts of where and how won’t get very far.

    2. – where is the Maryland Senatorial support ?

  14. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Groveton, I’m unclear on your thinking. I’m in favor of HOT lanes that add new lane capacity to the 495 Beltway and I-95, and allow wealthy entrepreneurs and executives who place a high value on their time to bypass congestion, and you don’t…. but *I’m* the guy standing in the way of progress? I’m against a METRO extension to Dulles which, as currently configured and financed, will represent a massive, ongoing drain on the incomes of Dulles Toll Road commuters, and the operating expenses of which will represent an ongoing drain on Fairfax and Loudoun, and the value created will end up in the pockets of politically savvy Tysons landowners, not technology entrepreneurs, yet you support this monstrosity…. but *I’m* the guy standing in the way of progress?

    I dunno…. I hear you criticize Obama’s economic policies (and I agree with you), but then I see you applying the same logic to Northern Virginia infrastructure.

  15. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    the “divergence” here is that Groveton, IMHO, has cleared up any misconceptions / perceptions of him with regard to taxing for infrastructure needs AND to believe that both roads and transit should be funded from taxes – and tolls.

    I think that is clear now. It was not clear before OR Groveton did not make it clear – before – AND left the impression with his views of Obama and stimulus that he was opposed to govt being involved in spending for infrastructure and recouping costs via taxes and tolls.

  16. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    …. OR …. Groveton’s views ARE… evolving…

    😉

  17. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim:

    Your arguments are akin to asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. an interesting theoretical debate but lacking in practical value.

    Part of your opposition to the Rail to Dulles project is the fact that MWAA has only one real choice to raise the required revenues – increase tolls on the toll road. You think these expensive tolls will be unfair to toll road commuters. Yet, you are fine with equally expensive congestion tolls.

    Why?

    Presumably, you think that the commuters on the Dulles Toll Road have no option but to use that road. Wrong. They have numerous options. all of them involve trading a free but congested route for an expensive but un-congested route – just like your HOT lanes.

    Perhaps you believe that drivers should pay to drive while train riders should pay to ride trains. If so, it’s hard to imagine how a project with substantial capital needs would ever get built. I guess you yearn for ever more public – private partnerships. Unfortunately, private companies (and especially publicly traded private companies) have a different view of the payback period required of an investment.

    But my biggest complaint is your lack of consistency. Let’s be honest – the Richmond International Airport is pretty lame. Operating income has fallen each of the past two years….
    http://www.flyrichmond.com/Site_Downloads/About_Downloads/Financials/2010CAFR.pdf

    Having three mediocre airports in Richmond, Newport News and Richmond is a pretty questionable plan. Newport News seems to be in a perpetual struggle and, as I mentioned, Richmond’s revenues are falling.

    Yet, Richmond International Airport is in line for federal support for an expansion….

    http://www.airport-world.com/home/item/846-ongoing-debate-on-funding-threatens-imminent-faa-shutdown

    Why should federal funds be committed to expand an airport where revenues are falling? Why should federal guarantees be made to expand an airport in a region with too many airports?

    And, most importantly …

    Why should “government” own the Richmond International Airport at all? Think of how much money could be freed up if Virginia simply sold Richmond International Airport to a public – private partnership. Of course, the private company might insist that Newport News be closed so that the revenues in Richmond stop falling.

    You get the point.

    When I start hearing you apply your user pays philosophy to your own hometown, I’ll begin to see you as a true believer. Until then, you are just another rent seeker trying to manipulate the political process to prevent progress in places outside of Richmond so that more can be spent inside Richmond.

  18. TMT Avatar
    TMT

    I want to ask what I believe to be a very fundamental question. What are the standards by which the Commonwealth of Virginia funds transportation projects? Notice that I use the plural and not the singular.
    I do not have a clue as the answer. I would guess that, in many instances, factors such as safety, reduction of congestion, commuting time, economic development, and reduction of future maintenance requirements, are considered and may well be the controlling factor(s). But, in many instances, I suspect a political deal is driving the decision.
    Shouldn’t people know why Project A is being funded and why Project B is not? I am not suggesting that we reduce transportation funding to a mathematical formula. But when people are forced to pay taxes and, sometimes, higher taxes, don’t they deserve answers?

  19. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Groveton, I *do* apply my user-pays principles to my own home town. I have supported the expanded use of tolls along the Powhite/Downtown Expressway to pay for improvement on those highways. I thought that the Rt. 288 circumferential highway should have been tolled — and, if tolls wouldn’t support it, it shouldn’t have been built. And I criticized the transfer of General Funds to help pay off Rt. 288 as a rip-off to Virginians outside the Richmond area. I would support HOT lanes if traffic and congestion ever reached the point where they could be supported. I would support the tolling of I-95, as proposed by McDonnell, as a means to pay for continued road improvements in the Richmond region. I am totally consistent.

    You’re the one who’s not consistent — criticizing Obama (rightly) for his national policies but then applying Obama logic for the benefit of Northern Virginia. Subsidies are just fine…. when they go for projects that you happen to favor.

  20. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: ” What are the standards by which the Commonwealth of Virginia funds transportation projects?”

    not published.. as far as I know… and often arbitrary…

    they pick from an array of “good reasons” … that are arranged in the proper order per project.

    you can find this info for larger projects that have a stated “purpose & need”.. and have some good laughs.. at technical jargon like “logical termini”.

    VDOT has a Dashboard that helps identify the projects ongoing by county, VDOT region, MPO region.. etc.. but try to find things like TMT is asking …. in a consistent and easy to understand format…

    even bridges – which have sufficiency ratings to not get rehabilitated strictly on the sufficiency rating so you’ll end up with bridges with much better sufficiency ratings getting repaired before others.. that are almost to the point of weight restrictions and even abandonment..

    there is no connection between VDOT’s project steering wheel and the front tires.

  21. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “Subsidies are just fine…. when they go for projects that you happen to favor.”.

    If I take $100 from you and then give you back $40, the $40 is not a subsidy. It is a partial return of the $100 I took.

    I await your thoughts on why federal money is being spent to expand Richmond International Airport while revenues at that airport are in decline and the region has excess airport capacity.

    MWAA brought Dulles and Reagan Airports up to snuff in the last 10 years. Perhaps RoVa should outsource the management of their failing airport system to MWAA.

  22. TMT Avatar
    TMT

    I think Groveton is raising the same point as I am. What is the standard for investing in Richmond Int. Arpt.? Why do we invest tax dollars for Project A and not for Project B?

  23. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    well geeze.. you could make the same point about Hampton Roads ports, eh?

    has anyone seen this:

    “VDOT Seeks Proposals To Construct Western Bypass

    VDOT is formally seeking proposals to build the Western Bypass. The agency is asking contractors to submit proposals using what’s called a design-build approach. VDOT’s Lou Hatter says more than $244 million has been allocated to the project. That total includes $197 million for the roadway and $34 million to widen a section of 29 North. Contractors are being asked to submit proposals by 4 p.m. on April 17th, 2012. VDOT hopes a contract can be awarded next July. The company with the winning bid can’t break ground on the six-mile roadway until the status of an environmental impact statement is determined. VDOT anticipates that will happen in the second half of next year.”

    http://www.wina.com/VDOT-Seeks-Proposals-To-Construct-Western-Bypass/11038558

  24. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Groveton, I’m not familiar with what’s happening at Richmond “International” Airport so I cannot speak with any authority. I presume that the federal funds are being dispensed as they would to any other airport…. a dubious proposition. If I had my druthers, the federal government wouldn’t hand out a single dime to airports. Airports would be required to raise their own capital — and they would succeed in doing so only if they could justify it economically and financially.

    Also, I would say in the abstract that I am entirely comfortable with the idea of privatizing management of RIA (perhaps management is already contracted out, I don’t know) and even of privatizing the airport. A private owner would manage the airport for the long run and might show a little more gumption when it came to marketing.

  25. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    wow! it sounds like Groveton has gone over to the “dark side”, eh?

    next thing you know.. he’s gonna come out with Buffet, eh?

    😉

  26. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    My frustration is that spending by all levels of government in the United States is currently equal to 41% of our GDP.

    I think that is a catastrophic level of spending.

    But what’s done is done, at least until Obama gets shown the door.

    So, while we’re engaged in this orgy of spending, I think we ought to try to make some progress.

    Like finally doing something about Rt 29 in Charlottesville.

    And making core NoVa a place where the country’s most educated workforce will want to stay after the spending spree ends.

    Maybe even expanding Richmond’s “International” Airport if there’s some reason to think that would help.

    The money is being pissed away. We might as well make some progress with that money.

  27. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    but taxes are the lowest they have been in 50 years… right?

    I think the transportation infrastructure party is over…. at the State AND the Federal level.

    I think METRO will be LUCKY to get ANY more Fed subsidies….

    I think the reason MWCC went to mega tolls on DTR was because the “Plan A” “get it from the Feds crapped out”.

    Groveton’s essential point (I think) is that since NoVa is the economic engine of the state and subsidizes the rest of the state that everyone in the State should be willing to chip in for NoVa’s infrastructure needs to make it a “better place” that will then “attract” more jobs.

    HR/Tidewater makes that same argument about their tunnels.. they don’t want to toll them… they think NoVa is ALREADY sucking up more money that it should and they want their “share”.

    I suspect that Richmond and Roanoke have similar attitudes.

    but at the end of the day – I do not think NoVa is going to score significantly more infrastructure money unless they “prove” that a RoVa dollar invested will return at least 1.01.

    🙂

    in the past.. we’ve heard projections along the lines that NoVa will double it’s population in a couple of decades… or less.. call me skeptical now given the economy and what inevitably will be Fed cuts.

  28. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “Groveton’s essential point (I think) is that since NoVa is the economic engine of the state and subsidizes the rest of the state that everyone in the State should be willing to chip in for NoVa’s infrastructure needs to make it a “better place” that will then “attract” more jobs.”.

    Some people on this blog have a very hard time with this …

    If I take $100 from you and then give you back $40, the $40 is not an example of me “chipping in”. It is a partial return of the $100 I took.

    RoVa wants to take NoVa’s watch and then charge NoVa to tell them what time it is.

    And, while NoVa makes a good example, the same subsidy sucking seems to be happening to Tidewater and parts of the Charlottesville area as well.

  29. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    ” And, while NoVa makes a good example, the same subsidy sucking seems to be happening to ….”

    let me help…

    And, while NoVa makes a good example, the same subsidy sucking seems to be happening to virtually every economically vibrant urban area in the country,

    NYC, for instance, funds much of the rest of New York.

    Kids in upstate NY get a good education compliments of the the folks working in NYC….

    is “subsidizing” an education for economically-crippled rural areas good policy?

    well yes.. other than the fact, of course, that the law also requires it….

    how else would you get folks who live in economically-depressed areas to move to where the jobs are AND be able to successfully compete for those jobs.

    Groveton – want those areas that received education subsidies to pay it all back to NoVa so NoVa can “improve” and become even more economically robust…

    but then if RoVa actually did do that… how would those kids get good educations and be able to leave and go to where the jobs are?

    Groveton’s Solution: “Let them eat cake”.

    typical Conservatism.. eh?

    so listen up Virginians – if you are a kid who was born into a poor, under-educated family with poor economic circumstances – it’s your problem.

    We will NOT engage in do-gooder policies to “steal” from others to improve you kids lot in life.

    suck it up!

  30. TMT Avatar
    TMT

    I went to a meeting last evening held by a delegate from a neighboring district. The subject was Tysons Corner, which drew people into a discussion of transportation and the maintenance formula that effectively treats rarely driven roads and heavily driven roads as equals. Lots of anger and agreement among everybody, from Rs to Ds, drivers to transit people. So what else is new?
    I also learned that part of the problem with road maintenance nationally is the more efficient gasoline refining process that obtains more gasoline per barrel of oil. The remains, which are used to make asphalt, are smaller. So not only do we have oil traders raising the price of asphalt, but also a lesser supply of the substance itself.

  31. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    well the average driver seems to believe that the State “owes” them a less congested solo auto trip at rush hour …and at the same time they also believe that they pay more than enough in gasoline taxes and that the reason the roads are congested is that the taxes are being wasted.

    the average driver has no idea, nor cares.. how much maintenance costs much less the concept of operations which is also a significant cost.

    but when you got a bunch of SOLO-driving NoVa commuters pounding the roads to gravel.. why should anyone other than NoVa drivers pay to fix it?

    If NoVa builds more roads – why should RoVa be responsible for the maintenance and Ops of those roads?

  32. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Why should RoVa subsidize NoVa roads? According to Groveton, because NoVa subsidizes RoVa’s schools. Unfortunately, Groveton draws the wrong conclusion. His argument, as best I understand it, is that two wrongs make a right.

    (As an aside, Groveton blames the “Richmond clown show” for the redistribution of wealth at NoVa’s expense. But I am pretty sure that, when the formula was last tinkered with during the Wilder administration, most of NoVa’s Democratic Party contingent went along with it. It’s not as if it were foisted upon the region without its acquiescence.)

    Rather than subsidize NoVa motorists in order to offset the injustice of soaking NoVa taxpayers for poor downstate schools, I think we should attack the problem at the source: Reform the funding formula for distributing state funds. I have argued in the past for distributing state funds on the basis of X dollars per student across the board, with adjustments for special needs students. Under such an arrangement, NoVa might not get back as much as it pays in taxes, but at least it will get back as much money (per student) as everyone else rather than getting short-changed as much as it does. The system would have the added advantage of transparency — citizens can understand it. They can readily see whether the sum needs to be raised or lowered. No one but a handful of legislators and Education Department bureaucrats understands the current formula.

  33. Hydra Avatar
    Hydra

    Hydra … where, in my statement, is there any reference to job creation?

    ===========================

    Mea Culpa.

    I took your comment about the battle being on for the top ten percent who also covered the costs for many others to be part of a broader argument about creating jobs for them as well. Reference your comments about putting your proposed new jobs eslewhere.

    =============================

    I’ll be 200 by the time Virginia, Maryland and the feds decide how to build another Potomac crossing.

    You are an optimist.

  34. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    ” I have argued in the past for distributing state funds on the basis of X dollars per student across the board, with adjustments for special needs students. ”

    that’s pretty much how it works right now.

    You can get the formula online.. and you can also see how it is allocated for each jurisdiction…

    AND you COULD in a blog post showing BOTH interview someone in the GA or DOE to explain the rationale… and any contemplated changes.

    such a blog post would clear up a LOT about who shot John… etc.. and perhaps save some bandwidth about subsequent “who shot John” NoVa/RoVa school funding rants.

  35. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry, unless something has changed since I wrote about three years ago, the school funding formula includes “ability to pay” among its criteria for distributing state funds. It’s pretty widely acknowledged to favor downstate Virginia, especially *rural* downstate Virginia.

    Clearly, NoVa is a loser in the education funds redistribution game.

    But NoVa fares pretty well in the distribution of maintenance and construction dollars under VDOT formulas. And it makes out like a bandit in the car tax refund.

    The other big redistribution engine is higher ed. If you measure higher ed by dollars flowing to universities, NoVa loses because it has only two public institutions: GMU and NoVa Community College. But if you apportion state support for higher education by the number of students in college, I dare say that NoVa would come out way ahead, simply because such a high percentage of its students go to college.

  36. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    there was a change.. remember the kerfuffle that happened last year?

    might be worth revisiting at some point.. the basis for the “ability to pay” is pretty substantial …includes mean incomes, value of property, sales taxes collected, etc…

    but the other thing to recognize is that Va does not “take” money from RoVa.

    Virginia designates 1% of the STATE sales tax – as DEDICATED to level funding of students statewide.

    that 1% in the State’s mind is a state tax – not a local tax and not a tax that will be allocated back on a proportional basis.

    Va is not doing anything that other states are not also do – with the same idea – which is to provide equitable education opportunities to kids across the state no matter where they live geographically.

    One way to cross-check the data would be to use the Va auditor comparative data to look at school expenditures per capita

    I agree it’s murky but there is a lot more opportunity to get into facts than there is with transportation funding…

    for instance, we know how much 1% is sales taxes is – on a per county basis.

    but we don’t know how much the 17.5 cents gas tax generates per county.

  37. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: additional regional taxes for transportation

    first, recognize that counties like Fairfax ALREADY can put as much funding as voters will approve into roads.

    The county has no govt restrictions on how many times they can propose projects via referenda .. and increase taxes to pay for it.

    Even the rating agencies won’t hurt the ratings as long as taxes are collected to pay for the debt.

    but the bigger problem is regional roads and how to pay for them.

    The folks that Groveton calls the “clown show” have at least TWICE attempted to set up a regional funding mechanism that would pass Constitutional muster but at the end of the day – people in the region would have to approve via referenda – and it has to be all of them. agreeing on the same list of projects – and their share in terms of increased taxes.

    Nothing really keeps each country from coordinating parallel (concurrent) referenda for regional projects… as far as I can tell.

    the problem is that there is no real agreement at the regional level as to what should be truly prioritized in terms of going to a region-wide referenda.

    but this would be a virtual “home-rule” type approach to transportation and I’m not seeing what the obstacle to doing this is – in terms of external influence/controls from Richmond.

    the real problem is the staggering cost of roads and at the end of the day – many people look outside the region to the State or Feds to fund transportation but it’s almost genetic that they see the outside help as the State or the Feds – and not the reality which is taxpayers outside their region.

    At least Groveton recognizes this but he believes that the mechanism that is funding schools statewide is using money that “belongs” to NoVa.

    I’ve never heard a number. I doubt seriously it’s an amount significant enough to fund major transportation projects but how about the number?

    how about we say what that number is – as a starting point?

  38. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    1% sales tax in NoVa generates about 350 million dollars a year.

    that’s an important number for two reasons:

    1. – in terms of transportation dollars – it’s a significant amount that could, if spent wisely, help the region.

    2.- it’s also the amount that the State dedicates for state-wide school funding that NoVa does not get all of.

    when I look at the FY12 school budget it says that Fairfax gets 320 million in state aid …

    so.. is 30 million a year the amount that Va takes out of Fairfax county’s hide for the rest of RoVa?

    I’m not claiming my number is the definitive answer.. but I’m asking if I’m close…

  39. TMT Avatar
    TMT

    According to the Department of Taxation’s 2010 annual report, Fairfax County residents paid $2.1 billion in personal income taxes for 2008. The state total was $9.2 billion. So we paid approximately 23% of the State’s largest source of income. Latest data available.

  40. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    TMT – those numbers are meaningless if you can’t show a disparity in funding from Richmond….

    we need the dollars of what Richmond keeps and you do not get back…

    and in what areas…

    it appears to me that the school issue is about 30 million dollars… by looking at how much 1% of sales in NoVa generates verses how much the state sends back ..

    can you show how much of the income tax does not come back?

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