Want to Retain Teachers? Give Them Choices within the Public School System

James C. Sherlock

We can’t stay with the current public school model in Virginia. Both teachers and kids are leaving in droves. It is broken.

The politics of the standards of learning are fierce. The politics of discipline standards are even worse.

I am going to write about potential solutions to teacher shortages.

I recommend at least four types of public schools. To make that work, we need to do each type right. We currently have three types and are doing none of them right.

Giving teachers choices will, not coincidentally, give parents and their kids the same options, optimized for success.

Everybody wins. Even the teachers unions.

Public in-person schools. I suggest a two-tier model for in-person public schools.

The current one-size-doesn’t-fit-all model is not working out for students, parents or teachers.

This space has pointed out endlessly that some schools are not educating the kids put in their charge. We have also discussed all of the socio-economic issues. But the critical feature of the schools that are failing is students who do not possess personal, academic and/or behavioral discipline and disrupt both those kids who do and the teachers who are trying to teach them.

Every kid should start out in a school that presumes that he or she can learn and will respond with behavior that enables learning. Including attendance. Give them a chance to improve, but some will disappoint over time for a multitude of reasons. This is not about special education. It is about personal agency: attendance, application and behavior.

Offer state funding for alternative schools for kids who simply cannot or will not attend regularly or behave in schools as currently configured.

Call them restorative academies. Maintain the same academic standards but set disciplinary rules and safety provisions that are appropriate. Pay the restorative academy teachers at a higher scale than regular in-person school teachers.

Let kids with both discipline and academic issues that often go together repeat a grade in a restorative academy. It will reduce the humiliation factor of doing that in the same school.

Make it a two-way street.If a kid goes to a restorative school and gets his or her act together, he or she can transfer back.

Importantly, that will greatly reduce suspensions and expulsions from the regular schools, a good cause that has attracted flawed solutions — the disciplinary changes that have brought chaos in many schools.

It will give kids with issues both an unbroken education and a second chance.

I know some jurisdictions have alternative schools that generally fit this description. But the ones I know of are under-used. They are generally offered as last chances for those expelled or who have dropped out.

I am talking about earlier intervention to stop expulsions and drop-outs, and keep kids on track to be successful adults. That is a disproportionate impact worth addressing.

Public charter schools. Virginia has a failed public “charter” school model. School districts must approve charter applications. We have a half dozen of them in the state and only one is successful at offering a better learning experience to a diverse group of kids. Under current Virginia law that requires school board approval of a charter, that will not change. Too much teachers union influence.

I personally think the unions are myopic. How does it help them to oppose charters? They are losing members without them?

There is nothing inherent in a charter school that forbids unions. The unions will have to accept different work rules for charters, but some of their own teachers would welcome those rules.

We need to import a public charter school model that is proven successful in educating poor kids. There are many states with thriving public charter schools. There are excellent model laws that can be adopted in Virginia.

Success Academy, the most accomplished public charter system in America, has offered to mentor such a program in Virginia pro bono.

Public remote schools. Virginia has a successful “remote-teaching-learning program” run by private companies who compete with each other and have been in that business for two decades.

We also have an upstart VDOE-run school that has jumped on the bandwagon with no experience in full-time remote schooling whatever.

Shut down the VDOE experiment and outsource it competitively under contract to one of the companies that knows what they are doing.

Make the existing district option easier. Change the current law that requires individual school districts to contract with providers and award multiple-user, multiple-award contracts at the state level that schools districts can just opt to use.

Like charters, there is nothing inherent in a remote school provider that forbids unions. Only the VDOE state employee remote teachers are forbidden to unionize.

Action. Those are my ideas to change the momentum of losses of students and teachers from Virginia’s public schools.

Those changes will offer options to teachers, parents and students that they do not currently have or that are offered in a demonstrably flawed manner.

If there are better ideas, VDOE should bring them forward to the Governor and the General Assembly.

But do something.


Share this article



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)


Comments

101 responses to “Want to Retain Teachers? Give Them Choices within the Public School System”

  1. From the child’s perspective, going to the “Restorative” School would be just as, if not more, humiliating than repeating a grade. I guarantee kids would quickly pick up on the type of kids that get sent there and give it a derogatory nickname like “Stupid School” or “Failure School.” Not to mention the risks of separating a kid from their social group. For all its merits as a incentive and/or getting them away from bad influences, you also risk depression and/or friends being the one thing keeping them from falling completely into the abyss. It just seems like it has equal chances of hurting as helping.

    1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
      f/k/a_tmtfairfax

      I think your point is well-taken. Sending a kid to “Dummy School” isn’t likely to put him on the track to taking advanced placement classes. But we also need to realize that there are some kids who simply won’t make it irrespective of the extra resources provided to them.

      We need to try to help them, but we cannot bring down an entire class because of one or two totally disruptive classmates. At some point, all you can do is warehouse them until they age out of the system.

      Some will simply live on the margins, while others will turn to crime. This has been the story of humanity.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        Yeah, because there have never been disruptive kids in class before who clearly simply won’t make it…

        1. WayneS Avatar

          Yeah, because there have never been disruptive kids in class before who clearly simply won’t make it…

          Nobody made that claim. Nobody.

          In fact, the commenter to whom you responded acknowledged the exact opposite: This has been the story of humanity.

          We all recognize that disruptive kids have always been in classrooms, but there was a time when they were not allowed free reign to continuously disrupt the education of their classmates. You know, back before the so-called-progressive “experts” took over our school systems.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Maybe it wasn’t explicitly stated but the point of my comment was that we did not just “warehouse” those who disrupted class. They were disciplined, yes, but not shipped to a “dummy school”. And don’t say they aren’t disciplined today. They are regardless of what the Conservative party line says…

          2. WayneS Avatar

            They were disciplined, yes, but not shipped to a “dummy school”.

            Sure they were.

          3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Usually with detention or suspension depending on severity. The paddle was being phased out during my high school days…

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            They do. It’s standard procedure – there are sanctions for kids who disrupt including sent to an alternative class or school. The “discipline” issue is a conservative canard used to impugn public schools and advocate for expelling and warehousing.

          5. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            A lot of the students who were not going to go to college ended up going to votech school in my days… nothing wrong with that, imo… it was not a “dummy” school… of course we also had FFA and some other alternative tracks for non-college prep students. I even seem to recall some administrative assistant-type courses (heavy on typing, shorthand, steno, etc). This was all a part of the public school we went to and did not require “alternate” schools.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes. The point is, as you allude to, that not everyone is necessarily headed to college but they still will need education even for non-college, blue-collar, technical, in the 21st century.

            We do not throw them away because they are not easy to teach or behave.

            In times past, some of them were headed to the military to learn discipline and a skill plus GA benefits on exit.

            Some kids who are behavior problems – with the right kind of “education” actually mature into real adults who make significant contributions.

            Kids are not widgets where the “flawed” ones get put on the discard pile.

            The problem with many Conservatives is that they fundamentally oppose the CONCEPT of public education and everything after that is criticism and justification for a non-public path, of course for the “bright ones” and “whatever” for the ones that don’t fit that mold.

            Most Conservatives are fundamentally unable to really understand what public education is really about – even though it is the secret sauce of every single developed country on earth and the bright line between developed country and 3rd world/developing countries.

          7. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            The “discipline” issue is a conservative canard”. No, the discipline issue is the discipline issue.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            It’s NOT the issue Conservatives make it out to be at all. It’s more a dog whistle more often than not.

            Most schools are handling it. It’s more of a problem at schools that serve low-income neighborhoods.

            And the irony is the data you use to condemn is data the public schools provide -just like other data that is used by anti-public education folks.

          9. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “anti-public education folks”. Are those the ones who are trying to improve it?

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh that’s their stated premise for sure but pretty clear they’re opposed to public education because most of what they propose is NOT to improve it but to damage it further so they can advocate for “alternatives” that don’t have to do follow the requirements that public education has to follow.

          11. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            And up is down.

            Missing long term memory, you apparently have made up for it with imagination -endlessly annoying, but imaginative.

            As Alice said: it is the only weapon in the war against reality. Keep up the good fight.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I was going to compliment on your blather but even that is sub-par. Sorry.

        2. WayneS Avatar

          Yeah, because there have never been disruptive kids in class before who clearly simply won’t make it…

          Nobody made that claim. Nobody.

          In fact, the commenter to whom you responded acknowledged the exact opposite: This has been the story of humanity.

          We all recognize that disruptive kids have always been in classrooms, but there was a time when they were not allowed free reign to continuously disrupt the education of their classmates. You know, back before the so-called-progressive “experts” took over our school systems.

        3. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
          f/k/a_tmtfairfax

          Your comment does make any sense. There have always been disruptive kids in school that did not make it. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

          Society has always involved a social contract among its members. In return for certain benefits provided to members, each member has certain obligations.

          American society provides a large pool of taxpayer funds to operate public schools. Beyond what is provided to the general education student, public schools provide extra funding for services for students with additional needs be they for disabilities, non-English speakers, mental or emotional problems or low-income.

          But on the other side is an obligation to take advantage of the resources, be it amounts for general education or for special services. Many, many students do this, making best efforts. But some don’t, for whatever reason. People who never make best efforts are violating their social obligations.

          Most public schools try to mainstream every kid, but there reaches a point where disruptive kids need to be removed from the classroom. There is not a right to deny others a fair chance at an education. And at some point, when every effort has been made to help, all the schools can do is warehouse the people until they either drop out or reach 18.

          Now, Larry often argues that society has some type of duty never to quit providing resources. Logically, this falls apart. Inherent in this argument is an assumption that the individual student truly doesn’t have an obligation to make responsible decisions or to make best efforts to use the resources provided. Yet, all of us have an obligation to pay taxes needed to provide services that are effectively rejected. How can people have a social obligation to provide resources that other people don’t have an obligation to use effectively? It makes no sense.

          Some people use their free will to make bad decisions consistently. They usually lead unhappy lives and many wind up incarcerated. It’s part of human history.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “There have always been disruptive kids in school that did not make it. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?”

            I never said there weren’t. The response, however, was not to move them to a “warehouse” school. If they were extremely disruptive, they were eventually expelled (often finding themselves in military-type schools – if they were lucky) but those were the extreme cases usually involving criminal behavior. I knew of no cases in my grade through my 12 years of public school although it may have happened without me being aware.

            In the end, the system provided them with the best education it could (there were teachers that I remember who never gave up on any student – ever) and usually they were ultimately better off for it. Some of them I still know and correspond with and they ended up in pretty good places. Most of them know they would have been better off had they not been disruptive and take responsibility for their own actions. They do, however, appreciate what education they received and generally expect more out of their own kids in that arena.

            I believe all this is also true today. You may have a different opinion.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Now, Larry often argues that society has some type of duty never to quit providing resources.”

            Nope – do not – am asking you if you’re considering life-cycle costs and you guys don’t care about that evidently.

          3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “you guys”. That pins it down.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            you know who you are…. 😉

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Your alternative?

      1. Addressing root causes: poverty, particularly generational poverty to provide the necessary stable homes and environments for kids to properly develop and learn.

        More short term: ending the classroom as a battleground for the culture, as that no doubt causes stress for teachers as things change back and forth as political power changes parties. However, Republican victories here and elsewhere make that a pipe dream at best.

        You can go deeper, such as less reliance on one-size-fits-all assembly-line education and more varied teaching styles to suit different children’s learning needs. I mean at a minimum the SOLs can get axed as nobody on either side of the aisle seems to like them. I also think mental health should be more closely examined and focused on being proactive, with mandatory mental health screenings as opposed to only reactive when it’s a problem. Teaching critical thinking over rote memorization, allowing more flexibility in physical education so kids can stay in shape in a manner that’s more appealing than running laps.

        But who doesn’t have a laundry list of education fixes

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          That is certainly yours.

          – You believe the Republicans made the classroom a cultural battleground. I respectfully disagree and so do the facts. Check the legislative history of the laws that imposed progressive cultural ideals on the schools.

          – Kill the SOLs so there is no evidence of educational malpractice.

          – Make mental health a focus – already the law in Virginia.

          – Teaching critical thinking – I believe the best classroom teachers already do that.

          – Flexibility in physical education. Already flexible.

          What I seek is your idea how to allow teachers to teach and the kids who want to learn to do so.

          An exercise: You are principal of a Richmond public school with 38% of your kids as chronic absentees. Yes, there are such schools.

          – What do you do to conduct classes for the kids who are not chronically absent when the others are actually in school? Teach critical thinking?

          What do you do for the kids who are physically afraid to come to school?

          What do you do if your teachers are afraid?

          Just asking.

          1. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            You might consider taking the classroom to the kids rather than bringing the kids to the classroom. A truly diverse education system doesn’t care where the education takes place only that it takes place. By the way, that is one of the advantages of home schooling and group online tutoring.

            If fear is driving school decisions, how about some dad and grandpa/grandma volunteers at the school. There is just such a system in place in a couple of schools.

        2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
          f/k/a_tmtfairfax

          Poverty does not necessarily cause bad decisions. Rich or poor, we all have free will. We all can make decisions.

          My father’s direct line involves multiple early deaths of fathers, widowhood and extreme poverty.

          My 2d great grandfather fell off a plank between a ship and the docks at the Philadelphia harbor. He drowned. My 2nd great grandmother got nothing. My great grandfather was 9 or 10.

          My great grandfather, her son, was a blacksmith with 7 kids. He also drank. During a period of remorse for neglecting his work, he blew his heart out with a shotgun. My grandfather was 3.

          My grandfather was a milk route supervisor with 4 kids. He had been gassed in WWI. He went to the dentist and was given laughing gas. He died in the dentist’s chair. My dad was 8. My grandmother lost the house and the car. There was nothing coming from the dentist who had everything in his wife’s name. She was able to get an extremely small house for back taxes. Soon after moving in, her parents lost their house and moved in with their daughter. So did my great grandmother’s sister and two of her kids. My grandmother lived on a $68 per month WWI widow’s pension.

          My family is far from perfect, but no one chose a life of crime. Many families can tell similar stories.

          Poverty is used as an excuse to keep people with advanced degrees employed by the government and nonprofits.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “Poverty does not necessarily cause bad decisions.”

            Not necessarily, of course, but it does statistically.

          2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Of course, correlation is not causation.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            ha ha… pot kettle, black..!!!

          4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll
          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Rich or poor, we all have free will. We all can make decisions.”

            the choices we have in making those decisions are not the same.

            Those who are poor have much worse outcomes per decision than those who are not.

            A child whose parents are not well educated and poor has far less “free will” than kids of well-educated , economically secure parents.

          6. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            A child whose parents are not well educated and poor has less “free will.” That statement just doesn’t make sense. Free will has nothing to do with one’s economic well-being or education. It’s an inherent part of what it is to be a human being. It’s about making choices. And sure, the choices available to people are not the same. Some people have a lot of money. Others don’t. But everyone can decide to postpone gratification to achieve a greater goal. Everyone can decide whether or not to steal something from a store or not report earnings on a tax return.

            There are a lot of people today who were born poor but made good decisions and lead a comfortable life. There are people born wealthy who are drug addicts or in prison because of their decisions.

            We are all flawed. We all make bad decisions. We all have done things that are wrong. We all have decided not to do something that needed to be done.

            But ultimately, we are each responsible for our decisions. And people who wind up in prison or living at the edges usually make more bad decisions than good ones.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            TMT – do you really think wealth and income don’t affect “free will”?

            Do you think Ukrainians have “free will” to escape what the Russians are doing?

          8. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Larry, go read the interview with recording and TV star (and former street thug) Ice-T in the July AARP magazine. He and an old friend from the streets who served heavy time in prison wrote a book. When asked about the message in the book, Ice-T responded, as follows, “That life is based on crossroads that we choose from every day. Small decisions change the trajectory of your life.”

            Your argument confuses the ability to make choices with the ability to have all options to choose from. Of course, not all choices are available to everyone at all times. Rich people tend to have more options than poor people. Younger people tend to have more options than the elderly. Adults have more options than kids or teenagers.

            Your idea that everyone should have the same opportunities is not realistic. Our individual goal is to try to make good decisions. It’s hard and we often fail, but as Ice-T said, our decisions change the trajectory of our lives.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            TMT – do you think a child can decide how much education they get and whether or not education level determines what choices are available or not?

            Can a child become a Doctor by just wishing it?
            Do they get to choose the path to get there?

            Do you think a child, never educated, has the same free-will choices that a child with a college education has?

          10. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Larry you are confusing opportunities with choices. We all don’t get the same opportunities. When my grandfather died in a dentist’s chair, countless opportunities were closed to my dad and his brothers. But they still had free will and could make decisions to do X or not do X, to say Y or not say Y. It’s about being human.

        3. WayneS Avatar

          Addressing root causes: poverty, particularly generational poverty to provide the necessary stable homes and environments for kids to properly develop and learn.

          That’s easy to say, and it is certainly a wonderful goal. We would all love to end poverty. But how?

          Between 1964 and 1968 the poverty rate in the U.S. fell from +/-19% to +/-11%. That seems to indicate that some of the ideas/programs implemented early-on in LBJ’s ‘War on Poverty’ had some beneficial effect. However, since the methodology for calculating the poverty line was not standardized until around that same time it is difficult to tell for sure. With that said, though, in the interest of fairness and non-partisanship, I will credit those early antipoverty measures with a significant drop in the poverty rate. That’s one in the ‘win’ column for the 1960s democrats.

          However, since 1968, none of the additional measures introduced by our government or our society have led to any additional statistically significant reduction in poverty. In fact, since 1968, the U.S. poverty rate has fluctuated between +/-11% and +/-16%. (I think the rate for 2021 was about 13%?).

          It is obvious that throwing ever increasing amounts of money at the problem is having no beneficial effect, so how, exactly, do you propose we address poverty?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            For Conservatives, if the problem is not 100% completely fixed, it’s a “failure”.

        4. Warmac9999 Avatar
          Warmac9999

          Rosie: we have spent as a country trillions upon trillions addressing the roots of poverty. If anything, that has made things worse.

          If you want to end classroom battles, stop the socialist garbage and focus on learning reading, writing, math and science.

          You have to have some standard and measure against it to determine success in teaching and learning. Otherwise the lowest common denominator rules.

      2. Concerned Citizen Avatar
        Concerned Citizen

        Stop making the students stay in high school for 4 years. According to current standards, a student could easily graduate with a standard diploma in 3 years. If I said to my 9th graders, “work hard, pass your classes and you’ll be out in 3 years”, I doubt I would have many dropouts or habitual disruptors. It won’t help all of them but there are a lot of kids who just don’t want to be in school.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” We can’t stay with the current public school model in Virginia. Both teachers and kids are leaving in droves. It is broken.”

    Totally false premise.

    Take a school system – like Henrico or Fairfax and say they are broken and it’s simply not true.

    Both have some of the best schools in Virginia and the nation.

    More than 80% of Fairfax grads go on to College or equivalent higher ed.

    Virginia overall scores in the top 10 of NAEP , ahead of 40 other states.

    There are problems , yes, and they’re primarily in schools in low-income neighborhoods where the kids belong to poorly educated parents who earn near-poverty wages.

    As Acbar said: ” … don’t just trash our institutions but make them work.”

    Public schools WORK. They are far from perfect but no way are the the abject failures some claim.

    Our basic problem is that we have children who do not have well-educated parents, living in low-income neighborhoods that go to schools that reflect the family education and income demographics.

    Sherlock doesn’t want to get rid of SOLs because he can use them to further his false premise but note he is not exactly a strong supporter of keeping them for his alternative schools.

    Finally to point out – that ALL of the developed countries have successful PUBLIC school systems.

    What Conservatives are really advocating is abandoning the low income kids by creating charters that won’t accept them unless their parents essentially stop being low income, less educated and “help” their kids aka Success Academies model and if not, then boot them.

    But Sherlock and like-minded want to label all public schools as failures so they can then promote “alternatives” which really have no chance of a snowball in hell – not because of teacher unions or school boards but because of parents and taxpayers – and the GA that represents parents and taxpayers.

    So, just how realistic is any of this ?

    Remember, I’m the guy that supports “alternative” schools where the money does follow the kid – if those schools MUST accept the kids of low income/low education parents AND THEY MUST also do SOLs the same way those terrible failed public schools now do.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Larry, you really should avoid joining a discussion about public education in Virginia.

      1. “Henrico and Fairfax have some of the best schools in Virginia.” They do. They also have some of the worst.

      Fairfax. Go to https://schoolquality.virginia.gov/divisions/fairfax-county-public-schools#desktopTabs-2 Overall, the district schools perform slightly above state averages.
      Braddock elementary https://schoolquality.virginia.gov/schools/braddock-elementary#fndtn-desktopTabs-assessments – not so much.

      Henrico. Go to
      https://schoolquality.virginia.gov/divisions/henrico-county-public-schools#desktopTabs-2. Henrico students perform below the state averages on SOLs.

      Richmond. go to
      https://schoolquality.virginia.gov/divisions/richmond-city-public-schools#desktopTabs-2

      Yet in Richmond, virtually every kid is identified as gifted. https://schoolquality.virginia.gov/divisions/richmond-city-public-schools#desktopTabs-6

      Attendance being what it was in 2021-22, we breathlessly await the latest SOL results.

      2. At what point in your dream did you discover that I don’t want SOLs for every public school?

      3. “Conservatives are really advocating is abandoning the low income kids by creating charters”. That is libelous. You comment every time when I write about charters but absorb nothing. That accusation is exactly wrong. I advocate them precisely to better serve the poor. You should be ashamed of yourself.

      At what point did you discover that Success Academies do not teach children from economically distressed families? That is pretty much all they teach. And those kids not only take the New York State Regent’s exams, they outperform every school district in the state.

      4. The problems “are primarily in low income neighborhoods.” Yes they are. Your point? Are problems in low income neighborhoods not worth solving?

      5. Finally, Larry, in this state under its constitution the state government cannot force any district to establish restorative academies. It can only incentivize them so they can afford to do so. The GA must pass the incentives.

      If we want more charters, the state has to establish a charter authority that is not the local school division. Lots of states do so. That requires a new law.

      If VDOE wants to disestablish its virtual academy and outsource it so that agency can actually oversee that school like the other public virtual schools in the state rather than run it, the GA will have to act.

      I honestly recommend you leave the field, Larry.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        You’ve never made clear that it must be part of your advocacy for “alternative” schools. And when brought up, you either ignore or deflect.

        You have a chance right now to make a clear and unambiguous statement.

        Let’s hear it.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          If you mean do I support SOLs for all public schools, I support them and always have, unambiguously.

          If you mean do I support charter schools focused on helping poor kids, that is my position and always has been. Read anything I have ever written on Success Academy. Better schools for poor minority kids are the singular focus of those articles.

          When you read my articles, you never seem to understand what I say and always pose a straw man challenging something I did not write.

          But I have confidence in you Larry. I can count on you to declare that I don’t hold those same positions and ask me to declare them again next time. And the time after that.

          As I have asked before, please withdraw from discussion of my articles.

          Blame it on the obtuseness of my writing if that makes you feel better. I do the best I can.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            You can forget “withdrawing” from your dishonest and biased narratives about public education. Not going to get a free ride on it.

            I asked you directly if you supported SOL reporting in non-public/charter/voucher schools and what was your answer?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/764cd7bd7efb6f9952bc39a60d257585ee24d822cac44a1b1dfcbe6ae15fd76a.jpg

            and then you go on to blather nonsense about strawmen and other foolishness.

      2. Teddy007 Avatar
        Teddy007

        Once again, what percentage of high school students are truly capable of mastering calculus. Will creating more charters or raising standards or imposing more discipline increase the number of students who can master calculus? If one answer those questions truthfully, then on is capable of really discussing education.

        1. WayneS Avatar

          Once again, what percentage of high school students are truly capable of mastering calculus.

          I don’t know, and apparently neither does anyone else here. So, instead of repeating the question over and over, why don’t you enlighten us? Why don’t you tell us what percentage of high school students are truly capable of mastering calculus.

          1. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            If one asks a high school math teacher who teaches seniors, the standard answer is about 10-20 percent. The problem with education policy is when either someone is basing their policy on all students can learn calculus is schools have enough resources (the standard progressive policy) or that all students can learn calculus is the students work hard enough, if the students come from two parent families, and if student are placed in schools that have the “special” process to impart learning (Charters, magnets, GTE). Of course both policy ideas and wrong. The refusal to answer the question also shows that people are not willing to accept the level of drop outs and failures is schools are designed to ensure that high school graduates can really function at the 12th grade level.
            Shorter version: is one is make a proposal that assume that everyone can learn calculus, then one will be wrong when it comes to education policy.

          2. WayneS Avatar

            Who made the claim that all high school students can learn calculus?

          3. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            It is implied constantly. that is schools get more resources, then students will learn. If students are given vouchers, then student’s academic performance will increase. That charters have special pedagogy that will allow for most students will master calculus. I use it to show that most people are unrealistic in their education policy proposals. Another way to look at education policy is what is the first topic that 90% of students cannot learn (algebra, exponentials, Latin)?

          4. Bruce Majors Avatar
            Bruce Majors

            Actually if you give the students vouchers you can’t predict what will happen. The point is to have a diversity of competing approaches to “pedagogy” in the broad sense, including classroom management and all aspects of human development and interaction, so you will find new and better ways of doing things. The market as a discovery process.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and I have AGREED with that with the provision that no child be denied access to the “market” AND that all competitors in that market have to report their performance so we actually KNOW which ones are successful and which are not.

            The irony here is that because public money is spent that we DO REQUIRE the collection of data – about performance, discipline, etc.. and then it is used to question the effectiveness of public education and the promotion of “competition” but then no advocacy for equivalent transparency and accountability.

            An assumption that any/all competition will be superior to public schools which is grade A balderdash.

            I SUPPORT competition AND transparency/accountability but you’d not see much of that second part in most of Sherlocks tomes.

          6. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            With all the experimentation one will learn the basic lesson of education (or biology, medicine, etc) that results fall along an S-curve. Charters, private schools, homeschoolers all try different ideas and in the end, the results fall along an S-curve where a few students pick up the topic quickly, most eventually get some mastery, and a few never show any ability. What private schools, charters, magnets can do is just dump the slow learner back to another school. So, any studies coming out of such schools need to take that into considerations.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” Another way to look at education policy is what is the first topic that 90% of students cannot learn (algebra, exponentials, Latin)?”

            we also “know” that with a tutor , most kids CAN learn a lot more than classroom.

            in fact, parents with wealth do exactly that for their kids – look at the Asian parents in NoVa and TJ….

            right?

            why not taxpayer-funded vouchers for whatever material the parents decide they want their kid to learn?

            public-funded tutoring for all?

            What’s wrong with that?

          8. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            All the cram schools in Northern Virginia would love that. Public financing with no accountability.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yep and if you gave that choice to the 98% low income whose kids did not get tutored to get into TJ – a popular thing!

            Perhaps tutoring on a means-tested basis?

            If you are low-income, you get free tutoring for your kid?

        2. WayneS Avatar

          Once again, what percentage of high school students are truly capable of mastering calculus.

          I don’t know, and apparently neither does anyone else here. So, instead of repeating the question over and over, why don’t you enlighten us? Why don’t you tell us what percentage of high school students are truly capable of mastering calculus.

        3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          This is not about calculus. Nor rocket science. I find it impossible to imagine where you came to that conclusion from my article. But there it is.

          The restorative academy idea is about separating from the kids who want to learn and teachers who want to teach the students who will not attend regularly, will not apply themselves, cause classroom disruptions and sometimes sow fear among their classmates and teachers.

          It is also about, once removed, giving those kids a chance to earn their way back among the kids who want to learn and will accept personal agency for their studies and behavior to accomplish that.

          What is your idea about how to do that?

          1. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            The easiest thing to do would be to make high school voluntary. If one is mad about teen rebellion, then take school away as a place to rebel. However, taking all of the bad apples and putting them into one basket almost never works. Also, such a program requires a level of honesty and ethnics that local government has long shown itself incapable of doing. The minute someone figures out that black and Latino students are overrepresented in the trouble maker school while the children of school board members, chamber of commerce members, or city/county government officials are never sent to trouble make schools, one can expect the federal lawsuit. Thinking that one has the special program that will make kids who do not want to learn actually learn is foolishness

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” The easiest thing to do would be to make high school voluntary.”

            that’s essentially what Sherlock is advocating…but in a less obvious way..

            It would be an easy thing to advocate for – but very revealing about motives.

          3. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            It would be cheaper that creating the pointless alternative high schools based upon the idea that troublemaking teens can be rational. Just let the troublemakers walk out the door.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            ..or just kick them out, right?

          5. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            What conservatives need to adopt as a sane education policy is that the public needs to be willing to tolerate a much higher level of high school drop outs and failures to ensure that those who do graduate can actually function as the 12th grade level. Then change every other policy to ensure that those who graduate function at the 12th grade level.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No developed country that I know of – thinks the answer is to boot kids before they have achieved some level of literacy.

            It’s actually the distinction between developed countries and 3rd world countries – i.e. literacy.

            But beyond that – every single kid that does not achieve a sufficient level of education to hold a job and take care of their own (and family) needs becomes a recipient of taxes from folks who do work.

            Ever kid that does not become a tax-paying individual becomes someone you and I pay to support .

            Prisons start at 30K and non-prison can be twice that – you and I are paying that bill.

            right?

            If we do that – then we lose out to other countries that don’t do that.

            Our economic security is at risk if we do not maintain competitive education and workforce levels.

            How come all the other OECD countries can do this and we cannot?

          7. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            First, finishing 8th grade would count as being literate, I believe. Second, the kid who cannot pass basic algebra in high school is never going to help the U.S. compete against other countries. Third, anyone who cannot pass high school algebra and basic science is going to have a hard time getting and keeping a job that will pay enough to have a family.
            And last, the scarecrow (from the Wizard of Oz) solution of just handing people diplomas as telling them they are educated never work. When I heard Chris Arnade (a Johns Hopkins graduate) speak about his book “Back Row America” I realized the elite have no understanding how much middle row America really hates back row America. The middle class students who managed to do well enough in schools to become nurses, teachers, accountants, city administrators, law enforcement have no use for their fellow students who were lazy, shortsighted, foolish, and rebellious. The middle row Americans do not have enough wealth and affluent to fully escape back row Americans but have to constantly clean up their messes.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I do not substantially disagree with your points but point out:

            1. -Most OECD countries apparently manage to more fully educate their kids

            2. – let’s define what the fundamental purpose and justification of public education is….. and are we achieving it?

            3.- Apparently, enough folks believe that we will have an underclass that will have to be supported financially by those above that class – with their taxes via entitlements.
            True?

          9. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            I think if you took African-Americans and put them into schools run like the schools in Germany, Finland, South Korea, etc that those African-American students would massively underperform compared to Korean, German, or Finnish students.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Okay, you’ve said it.

            Now, explain why….

          11. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            For the same reason that the biggest white-black achievement gap is in New Jersey followed by Conn and Mass. North Dakota has the smallest white-black gap due to African-Americans living in North Dakota being military, civil servants, or academics. Even in the state with the lowest NAEP scores, Mississippi, the white-black gap is huge. To refuse to accept that much of education statistics is driven by black underachievement is to deny reality.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            what’s the reason?

            I know the gap.

            What’s the reason for it?

            are blacks intellectually inferior?

          13. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            I would say that the biggest problem is african-american culture in the U.S. It is anti-intellectual and basically anti-learning. Germany or South Korea does not help that. Also, there is the impact of blacks being much more likely to be in a single mother family rather than a two parent family. South Korea and Finland would amplify that problem. Some of it is the issue with expectations from schools and teachers. The severe tracking in Germany could not help with this issue.
            Maybe one could take a single black family and put them in Germany or Singapore and have them succeed. However, if the entire city of East St Louis was moved to Finland or South Korea, then local school would be the worst performing school in the country. Education is an S-curve and no amount of screaming racism does not change that.

          14. Bruce Majors Avatar
            Bruce Majors

            So since the current mode of creating literacy – government schools – don’t deliver, we must get rid of them and try something else.

          15. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            is that an absolute – that no public schools “deliver”?

          16. Bruce Majors Avatar
            Bruce Majors

            It’s mandated by law that every child be given an education. That’s why illegal immigration and open borders are such a disaster, almost doubling the population that taxpayers must pay to educate in some counties. But an alternative holding area for kids who disrupt the educations of the general education population would be good for the “normal” and “bright” and well behaved kids. Having been in NoVa schools for much of the past 4 years, before, during, and after Covid, just a handful of “behaviorally challenged” kids mainstreamed into a school, and even more mainstreamed into a class, are completely disruptive, draining teachers and sometimes terrifying other students.

          17. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            The last can be changed to lower the age for mandatory education. The benefits would be so much better than the local and state government have to offer the schools but attendance is not mandatory. mandatory education is a sure of of the thinking that all children can learn calculus. And it is one of the major problems with modern education policy.

          18. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            modern education policy

            or

            modern US education policy?

            do OECD countries to this better?

            how?

          19. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            OECD schools more ruthlessly track than schools in the U.S. do. Look it up. In Japan, one’s life path is set by a high school entrance exam that everyone takes.

          20. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            for Germany, Finland , Korea, also?

            we’re talking about ALL the countries in OECD, not one or two… right?

            do they not have poor children, less educated parents, “discipline” kids?

          21. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            Germany also has severe tacking. Finland not so much. France has tracking. One can look it up. And places like Finland do not have an undereducated black or Latino class and does not have the rural southern whites either.

          22. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            the premise of public education is to have an educated and employable workforce for which to pay the costs of education –

            even illegals grow up to become workers, pay taxes, etc,

            Your claim/narrative about NoVa seems to be at odds with the data – the academic performance data as well as the number of grads going on to college.

            Most schools and school systems DO separate disruptive students from the mainstream.

            Not as many as some would like but not exactly not either.

            And the “solution” if you think they do not is what?

            private academies?

          23. Bruce Majors Avatar
            Bruce Majors

            Maybe if you call it Reparations Academy and give them cake and ice cream at lunch the naysayers will accept it?

      3. WayneS Avatar

        Yes. Because you did not demonstrate your undying support for SOLs in an article which was not about SOLs, then it means you don’t want SOLs.

        It’s nice to see the resident strawman carpenter can still build his product.

        Also, didn’t he once pledge to never again comment on one of your articles?

      4. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        re: ” Larry, you really should avoid joining a discussion about public education in Virginia.”

        I point out that many schools in Fairfax and Henrico are very good schools and they are – which you ignore in your one-sided, really dishonest approach to the issue.

        Those SAME districts have poor schools and I’ve pointed that out where you just focus on them alone and ignore the schools that are good.

        Then you use the one-sided perspective to claim that ALL public schools are failing.

        Dishonest and wrong.

        If anyone should leave the discussion it is you and your dishonest narratives.

        Virginia does well on education compared to all states yet you cannot seem to admit the truth because you are so focused on your dishonest “failure” narrative.

        You give Conservatism a bad name, guy. It equates to dishonesty on the issues.

        This is a key “tell” for you:

        ” 4. The problems “are primarily in low income neighborhoods.” Yes they are. Your point? Are problems in low income neighborhoods not worth solving?”

        your “solution” is to abandon these kids ? and you “invite” others to leave the discussion?

        there’s a word – scruples – learn it.

        1. Bruce Majors Avatar
          Bruce Majors

          In the current system, when we say a school is good we just mean it doesn’t have falling scores like its neighbors, and no one was raped or bullied there last year. Compared to the students coming out of Japan, China, or Scandanavia – and maybe even Nigeria – these schools don’t look so good.

          In other markets we are used to rapid innovation where our phone does things no phone did 10 years ago and we come to take for granted other products and services that did not exist when we were children.

          In government schools we think things are going well if the school did as well as the one we went to as a kid, and everyone has an Ipad and gets to take a coding class. That’s not much improvement.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Compared to OECD – we are not in the top ranked, but ahead of most other countries.

            But if OECD can do government public education, why can’t we?

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    But do something. Absolutely Captain! Nothing substantial, beyond raises, has been done for the 2022-23 academic year. Your suggestions and optimism for a better education are very much appreciated.

  4. I am delighted, JS, to see posts that don’t just criticize the status quo but provide detailed alternatives. It’s so easy to throw bombs, so difficult to sketch out coherent what-ifs that potentially provide policy-makers with a target to aim for and commenters to tweak, not dismiss as irrelevant. This is the best sort of institutionalist thinking: life is complicated, don’t just trash our institutions but make them work.

    With that preamble, let me say such systems exist in other countries, where people accept that their children as well as other’s children may be deserving of remedial or specially-structured schooling. If they don’t like the labels that come with attending one of those schools, they can motivate their kid to do something about it. But we have a public education system that too often prioritizes the little darlings’ self esteem and confers social promotions that make a mockery of actual academic achievement, and teachers unions that like it that way. What you describe strikes me as unachievable in most typical American school districts because the PTA and school board (not to mention teachers unions) would strive to kill the concept at all costs, it being such a threat to the status quo.

    As for charters, that sort of alternative approach was just why some were created in the first place (in the jurisdictions that allow them), as a safety-valve for those parents who insisted on reforms and real education (at least for their own kids). And yet you see how popular charter schools are with the Virginia GA today. I wish it were otherwise; but if Virginia can’t get its act together that doesn’t set a good example for others.

    And there’s the cost. Such remedial schools with their higher combat-duty pay and lower student-teacher ratios and additional buildings and additional bus routes and additional counselors would be impossible for many a Virginia secondary system that already underfunds the generic one-size-fits-all education now offered.

    Bottom line: I’d love to see something like it. But how could any State win majority support for it politically?

    1. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      Your paragraph two describes the system we used to have in the USA about half a century ago. It worked better than what is in place now. I wonder how a teacher can be held accountable or students learn when one kid can literally take over a classroom and trash it educationally as well as physically.

      One additional point, cost could be cut if administrative overhead for things like CRT, DIE, and nice to haves were eliminated. Spend on teachers first.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Here you go – public schools making changes to respond to the achievement gap – don’t need no stinking “alternative school” – public schools are more than capable of change:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9c07a98c1cd5df1da063035cec74386e40b92219f6ae754e4e690fe887460dd7.jpg

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      I am hopeful Mr. Larry. The extra time needs to put to effective use. This experiment began in 2018-19. We shall see if the needle moves in the right direction this year. I hope Falling Creek and Bellwood can be a standard bearer for others to follow.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        It won’t be easy – these kids are the hardest to teach no matter how much “school”.

        But you’re a retired teacher and I know a dozen teachers and they all say the same thing about these kids and when they come back after being away in the summer. They lose 1/2 or more of what they knew and they have to start all over.

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      I have been writing about year-round schooling for a long time. I do not consider a late July start-back by two elementary schools in Chesterfield to be a break through.

      Even more to the point, you treat this as news. It may be to you, but no other reader.

      Year round schooling for kids who have fallen behind is a good idea in general. That is why I have supported it for years. It does not address, however, underperforming schools. Does more time scheduled for students to attend a bad school make them better students? Even those who did not regularly attend normal school sessions and won’t attend summer school?

      It also does not address your long term memory.

      See my articles and your comments on the following articles I have posted:
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/the-richmond-free-press-on-year-round-schooling/
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/richmond-schools-chief-proposes-year-round-school/
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/year-round-school-in-virginia-until-covid-learning-losses-are-made-up/
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/hopewell-schools-blazing-a-trail-for-at-risk-school-children-in-virginia/
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/math-and-reading-remediation-coming-to-richmond-public-schools/
      https://www.baconsrebellion.com/general-assembly-education-bills-what-is-missing/

      There are more, but that should give you a start.

      Please read your comments on each of these and see if you can come up with a coherent position that you hold. I can’t.

      Next time you are looking to break news on BR, you might want to use the search engine on the left hand column before jumping to the internet.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I treat it as “news” that is apparently not known to the folks who say public schools are a failure and cannot and will not change to get better.

        Hey, I don’t need advice from the likes of you Sherlock especially when you blather as you do about “coherent”. My goodness you are one arrogant guy for someone who doesn’t seem to know his head from a hole in the ground some days.

        You must have been heck on wheels when you were a “Captain”, eh?

        1. Bruce Majors Avatar
          Bruce Majors

          Do you feel better now?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            not much, thank you. 😉

            Sherlock is pretty mixed up about public education in my view. Very contradictory narratives that sound more like he supports private academies for well behaved kids and let the others play in the streets like we see in 3rd world countries.

            The question is why can’t the US do what other OECD countries do without having to resort to private academies only for the well-to-do?

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Clearly, the only solution is preplanned indoctrination. We must build two parallel, seprate but equal, school system in each district. One to teach only Liberal themes and facts, e.g., evolution, the other Conservative, e.g., creationism. Students will be selected to provide identical scio-economic profiles. At the end of 36 years — two full cycles — we evaluate the effectiveness of each and discard the weak one. Voila! Problem solved, and at the cost of only one generation.

    1. Bruce Majors Avatar
      Bruce Majors

      Why only two? I like your question and direction but this is like the current progressive fantasy about secession from the Union, with a blue country and a red country. It’s only one step better than the usual statism. Why not just school (and other) choice with as many different private and charter schools as the market – families and parents – will support? Including orthodox Catholic schools, hasidic schools, gay oriented and acccepting schools, schools that emphasize and further different careers and talents, all girls schools, all boys schools, “trans” accepting and encouraging schools, and so on?

    2. Bruce Majors Avatar
      Bruce Majors

      Why only two? I like your question and direction but this is like the current progressive fantasy about secession from the Union, with a blue country and a red country. It’s only one step better than the usual statism. Why not just school (and other) choice with as many different private and charter schools as the market – families and parents – will support? Including orthodox Catholic schools, hasidic schools, gay oriented and acccepting schools, schools that emphasize and further different careers and talents, all girls schools, all boys schools, “trans” accepting and encouraging schools, and so on?

  7. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” 4. The problems “are primarily in low income neighborhoods.” Yes they are. Your point? Are problems in low income neighborhoods not worth solving?”

    So , in some of your prior dialogue, you seem to have cited these “problems” as justification for “alternative” schools, aka Success Academy, et al – “special schools” specifically for low income kids but with rules…

    But NOW, what I think I see in your narratives is apparently once the schools are created, they’d not really be targeting low income kids but instead kids of higher education level and income parents.

    So you seem to be advocating publicly-funded private schools NOT for low-income kids but for kids of well-educated, higher income parents. Sounds a LOT like Private Academies.

    Really, a version of education apartheid… where the kids of parents with means go to academies and the kids of low-income parents are relegated to other “public” schools – a system that is unlike any other developed country – a bifurcated system based on parents education levels and income more like we had in Virginia during Massive Resistance.

    4. The problems “are primarily in low income neighborhoods.” Yes they are. Your point? Are problems in low income neighborhoods not worth solving?”

    Explain how I’ve got it wrong.

    BTW, you’ve accused others also of “not understanding” what you write.

    You appear to me, at this point, point out the problems of public schools, use the data they do provide to then advocate for non-public/voucher/private schools – not for low income kids but the kids of parents with means.

Leave a Reply