VMI, Investigators Sparring Over Rules of Racism Investigation

by James A. Bacon

Barnes & Thornburg LLP, the special investigator selected to probe racism at Virginia Military Institute, released its first progress report today, as required by contract. The law firm has not had enough time to draw any conclusions, but the report does describe the testy relationship between the firm and VMI administrators as the investigation unfolds.

VMI has hired its own law firm as counsel, and disagreements have arisen over how to conduct the investigation. The two parties have sparred over VMI’s request that legal counsel attend an administrative briefing and sit in on interviews of faculty, staff, and cadets. Also, Barnes & Thornburg has sought assurances that individuals speaking to investigators will not be retaliated against.

“The Team firmly believes that the presence of VMI representatives will undermine the independence and effectiveness of the investigation, and may well deter the cadets and faculty being interviewed from being as forthcoming as they might otherwise be,” states the report.

It’s not surprising that VMI administrators are feeling defensive considering the origins of the inquiry. The investigation arose from a series of Washington Post articles accusing the military academy of “relentless racism.” Decrying what he called the “clear and appalling culture of ongoing structural racism,” Northam announced in October that he would hire an independent outside investigator to probe the charges. To some VMI officials and alumni, it appeared as if the fix was in.

The RFP for the contract, administered by the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia, gave the investigator a wide scope: not only to identify civil rights violations and threats of racial violence, but to gauge if there is a “culture of racial intolerance” at VMI, and to determine if there are “equity gaps” in VMI’s culture, policies, practices, and traditions. Additionally, the investigator is ordered to compare VMI “across multiple dimensions” to other Virginia public universities and to recommend reforms.

The procurement process resulted in the selection of Barnes & Thornburg, a law firm that emphasizes its commitment to racial justice. “We at Barnes & Thornburg wholly denounce racism in any form,” states the firm’s website, “and seek to play a part, in whatever way we can, to address the burdens the [death of George Floyd] in Minneapolis have brought and the larger social forces that led to them.”

The interim report said that the special investigative team has met “virtually” with VMI’s leadership several times, started conducting alumni interviews, and submitted document requests. Work was delayed by “procedural issues,” in particular the “surprise involvement” of VMI counsel McGuireWoods LLP and then the reassignment of that role to Eckert Seamans Cherin & Mellott LLC, says the interim report. Negotiating with VMI the rules of engagement “has consumed valuable time that the Team could have spent on conducting substantive fact-finding work.”

Investigators did set up a videoconference to meet VMI leadership, including VMI’s interim superintendent, Major General Cedric Wins, and other senior officers, and has arranged subsequent weekly teleconferences. A meeting in which VMI was to make a formal presentation was canceled when the team objected to the presence of VMI’s counsel. That meeting was rescheduled, however, and the VMI brass provided an overview of VMI’s mission, the central role of its honor code, and other distinctive aspects of the culture such as “rats,” the “dyke system,” and “sweat parties.”

According to the interim report, Wins also described some of his activities since his recent appointment after the resignation of the previous superintendent, J.H. Binford Peay III. He has engaged in listening sessions with various segments of the corps of cadets, including the Promaji Club for minority groups. Wins, who is African American and an alumnus, said he intends to focus on five areas, including (1) a commitment to honor, (2) the VMI brand, (3) diversity and inclusion, (4) a commitment to winning, and (5) an approach he describes as “One VMI.”

The investigative team intends to interview current cadets, members of the faculty and administration, and alumni. Disagreements have arisen over how those interviews should be conducted. States the interim report:

VMI has asked several times that it be allowed to have VMI representatives (including counsel for VMI) present during interviews of current cadets and employees. But the Team firmly believes that the presence of VMI representatives will undermine the independence and effectiveness of the investigation and may well deter the cadets and faculty being interviewed from being as forthcoming as they might otherwise be.

The interim report did not disclose what reasons VMI has given for wanting its  counsel to observe the interviews, stating only that VMI did not give a clear answer. However, it is not uncommon for the subjects of such proceedings to want to observe interviews to see if investigators are asking leading questions, pressuring interviewees or using other questionable tactics to elicit the response they are looking for, which in this case could be evidence of racism.

In the face of Barnes & Thornburg resistance, VMI countered with a proposal that interviewees be “given the option” to have VMI counsel present. Barnes & Thornburg found that “just as problematic.” VMI and the investigators are still working through the issue.

The special investigations team also has sought assurances that VMI will not take disciplinary action against cadets, faculty or administrators. VMI has given its commitment not to do so. The two parties are working on a joint statement that will “encourage cadets and other interviewees to be forthcoming.”

Update: Here is the Washington Post’s spin on the story. Headline: “VMI resists letting investigators interview cadets, faculty without its lawyers present, report says.” The story contains nothing substantive that I haven’t reported in this post, except for this quote from VMI spokesman Bill Wyatt:

Wyatt, said the school believes that cadets, faculty and staff should have access to the college’s lawyers if they want it.

“How does that undermine the investigation?” Wyatt asked. “We have provided them thousands of pages of documents already and are not in any way impeding who they speak with. While the attorneys work out their differences, we continue to cooperate fully with their review.”


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Comments

35 responses to “VMI, Investigators Sparring Over Rules of Racism Investigation”

  1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    If you zoom in it says “P. Wesley Foster”. I always thought it said, “Abandon All Hope”.

  2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    If you zoom in it says “P. Wesley Foster”. I always thought it said, “Abandon All Hope”.

  3. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    And the news is?

  4. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    And the news is?

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…

    what am I missing?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      The stink eye that the rep will throw at the interviewee.

    2. “I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…”

      I cannot imagine an investigation in which the entity being investigated would not WANT to have its representative(s) present during all phases of the investigation. They’d be crazy if they didn’t WANT that.

      But as my ol’ Dad used to say (still does, actually): “Want in one hand, sh!t in the other, see which one gets full first”.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Oh I can imagine ANY entity that is being investigated wanting to be able to be present for interviewing witnesses …but……… I dunno, it sounds too much like a way to discourage testimony to me.

        It’s downstream of that – that typically the witnesses statements can be challenged and rebutted but being involved in the interview itself can be tantamount to allowing the investigated to intimidate witnesses.

        I understand VMI’s position but I think if a judge actually gets involved in this – that VMI will likely get whacked for it’s tactics and that won’t help it’s case longer term.

        1. Larry comment #1: “I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…”

          Larry comment #2 (1 hr, 12 min later):”Oh I can imagine ANY entity that is being investigated wanting to be able to be present for interviewing witnesses …”

          Do you see why other people often have a hard time trying to figure out what you’re trying to say?

  6. LarrytheG Avatar

    I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…

    what am I missing?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      The stink eye that the rep will throw at the interviewee.

    2. “I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…”

      I cannot imagine an investigation in which the entity being investigated would not WANT to have its representative(s) present during all phases of the investigation. They’d be crazy if they didn’t WANT that.

      But as my ol’ Dad used to say (still does, actually): “Want in one hand, sh!t in the other, see which one gets full first”.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Oh I can imagine ANY entity that is being investigated wanting to be able to be present for interviewing witnesses …but……… I dunno, it sounds too much like a way to discourage testimony to me.

        It’s downstream of that – that typically the witnesses statements can be challenged and rebutted but being involved in the interview itself can be tantamount to allowing the investigated to intimidate witnesses.

        I understand VMI’s position but I think if a judge actually gets involved in this – that VMI will likely get whacked for it’s tactics and that won’t help it’s case longer term.

        1. Larry comment #1: “I cannot imagine an investigation of some entity and the entity wants it’s representative present in the interviews…”

          Larry comment #2 (1 hr, 12 min later):”Oh I can imagine ANY entity that is being investigated wanting to be able to be present for interviewing witnesses …”

          Do you see why other people often have a hard time trying to figure out what you’re trying to say?

  7. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Shut it down Dr Governor. It’s a new world and the voters have spoken. Now is the time to be bold for social justice….
    “He in blackface who moonwalketh shall take VMI away”

  8. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Shut it down Dr Governor. It’s a new world and the voters have spoken. Now is the time to be bold for social justice….
    “He in blackface who moonwalketh shall take VMI away”

  9. LGABRIEL Avatar

    It is clear to me that the reason VMI would want to observe interviews is to prevent leading or misleading questions and to prevent any mischaracterization of responses. Surely this could be done without any risk of loss of candor. Video and audio taping of the interviews is the first thing that comes to mind, as well as having VMI reps observe through one-way glass. Our justice system is based on the accused facing their accusers, and it does seem just for a report to be written based on possibly unverified or unverifiable accusations.

    1. Exactly. This is clearly an adversarial proceeding. When setting up the investigation, Governor Northam pronounced his opinion that “appalling” systemic racism was an established fact. VMI has every reason to worry that the Governor selected an “investigator” inclined to his viewpoint, every reason to worry that Barnes and Thornburg will cherry pick testimony to support a pre-ordained conclusion.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Seems like any investigation is likely to be adversarial. And both sides are usually allowed “discovery” of the evidence obtained by either side later in the process.

        But having the entity being investigated in the room with initial interviews of the witnesses can be a form of intimidation and that’s why it’s usually not allowed until later in the process when the witness will testify in public venues.

        Imagine if that were the standard for witnesses to crimes and the accused would be in the room with the witness? Sounds like a really bad idea.

        I’m not a lawyer and don’t play one, so there are some lawyers that participate in BR… perhaps they will weigh in. CrazyJD?

        1. The investigation is not a legal proceeding, at least not yet. And “witness intimidation” in a case like this has nowhere near the level of risk for witnesses as is associated with criminal proceedings.

          During depositions in civil actions, to which this is more akin, counsel for both sides have the right to be present during witness testimony.

          VMI asked that their legal counsel be present during witness testimony, not that individuals accused of wrongdoing be present. I don’t see why it’s such a big deal.

  10. LGABRIEL Avatar

    It is clear to me that the reason VMI would want to observe interviews is to prevent leading or misleading questions and to prevent any mischaracterization of responses. Surely this could be done without any risk of loss of candor. Video and audio taping of the interviews is the first thing that comes to mind, as well as having VMI reps observe through one-way glass. Our justice system is based on the accused facing their accusers, and it does seem just for a report to be written based on possibly unverified or unverifiable accusations.

    1. Exactly. This is clearly an adversarial proceeding. When setting up the investigation, Governor Northam pronounced his opinion that “appalling” systemic racism was an established fact. VMI has every reason to worry that the Governor selected an “investigator” inclined to his viewpoint, every reason to worry that Barnes and Thornburg will cherry pick testimony to support a pre-ordained conclusion.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Seems like any investigation is likely to be adversarial. And both sides are usually allowed “discovery” of the evidence obtained by either side later in the process.

        But having the entity being investigated in the room with initial interviews of the witnesses can be a form of intimidation and that’s why it’s usually not allowed until later in the process when the witness will testify in public venues.

        Imagine if that were the standard for witnesses to crimes and the accused would be in the room with the witness? Sounds like a really bad idea.

        I’m not a lawyer and don’t play one, so there are some lawyers that participate in BR… perhaps they will weigh in. CrazyJD?

        1. “Imagine if that were the standard for witnesses to crimes and the accused would be in the room with the witness? Sounds like a really bad idea.”

          Are you saying you think the Sixth Amendment is a bad idea?

          Except in very special circumstances witnesses and the accused are in the same room during court proceedings.

          And during out of court depositions in ciivil and criminal cases, lawyers from both sides are “in the room” when the witness is giving testimony.

          And yes, I know this investigation is not a legal proceeding, but you are the one who made the comparison. So please don’t try to move the goalposts in that direction.

        2. The investigation is not a legal proceeding, at least not yet. And “witness intimidation” in a case like this has nowhere near the level of risk for witnesses as is associated with criminal proceedings.

          During depositions in civil actions, to which this is more akin, counsel for both sides have the right to be present during witness testimony.

          VMI asked that their legal counsel be present during witness testimony, not that individuals accused of wrongdoing be present. I don’t see why it’s such a big deal.

  11. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Thank you for the post. Very informative. VMI is wise to protect itself. I believe General Wins will deliver authentic cooperation and a clear resolution will be reached.

  12. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Thank you for the post. Very informative. VMI is wise to protect itself. I believe General Wins will deliver authentic cooperation and a clear resolution will be reached.

  13. “Additionally, the investigator is ordered to compare VMI “across multiple dimensions” to other Virginia public universities and to recommend reforms.”

    This order effectively gives the inquisitor, I mean the investigator, carte blanche to investigate every public University in the Commonwealth. How else will the inquisitor, I mean the investigator, be able to “compare VMI across multiple dimensions to other Virginia public universities”?

  14. “Additionally, the investigator is ordered to compare VMI “across multiple dimensions” to other Virginia public universities and to recommend reforms.”

    This order effectively gives the inquisitor, I mean the investigator, carte blanche to investigate every public University in the Commonwealth. How else will the inquisitor, I mean the investigator, be able to “compare VMI across multiple dimensions to other Virginia public universities”?

  15. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ”

    Are you saying you think the Sixth Amendment is a bad idea?”

    Nope , but the manner is which it is carried out is not at the initial interview.

    “Except in very special circumstances witnesses and the accused are in the same room during court proceedings”

    Yes, AFTER the investigators have gathered witness statements.

    “And, although this investigation is certainly not a legal proceeding, please remember that you are the one who made the comparison. So please don’t try to move the goalposts in that direction.”

    well the “goalposts” are never to look at only one thing not in context. You have to look at the bigger picture and how the pieces fit together.

    That’s not moving goalposts – that’s understanding the context .

    If you look at the 6th amendment without context then one really doesn’t understand how it actually works.

    Even then, there have been some cases where the person on trial is considered such a mortal threat that the witnesses are allow testifying with protections. And some witnesses are actually put in lifetime protection programs.

    Having said that, this is not a criminal proceeding and I admit ignorance as to what the process ought to be if the accused is not considered to have broken the law.

  16. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ”

    Are you saying you think the Sixth Amendment is a bad idea?”

    Nope , but the manner is which it is carried out is not at the initial interview.

    “Except in very special circumstances witnesses and the accused are in the same room during court proceedings”

    Yes, AFTER the investigators have gathered witness statements.

    “And, although this investigation is certainly not a legal proceeding, please remember that you are the one who made the comparison. So please don’t try to move the goalposts in that direction.”

    well the “goalposts” are never to look at only one thing not in context. You have to look at the bigger picture and how the pieces fit together.

    That’s not moving goalposts – that’s understanding the context .

    If you look at the 6th amendment without context then one really doesn’t understand how it actually works.

    Even then, there have been some cases where the person on trial is considered such a mortal threat that the witnesses are allow testifying with protections. And some witnesses are actually put in lifetime protection programs.

    Having said that, this is not a criminal proceeding and I admit ignorance as to what the process ought to be if the accused is not considered to have broken the law.

  17. tennis1358 Avatar
    tennis1358

    I’m sure they don’t want VMI representation because they are known as a huge racist firm and anyone that quotes the Washington compost loses all respect!!

  18. tennis1358 Avatar
    tennis1358

    I’m sure they don’t want VMI representation because they are known as a huge racist firm and anyone that quotes the Washington compost loses all respect!!

  19. Regarding Ian Shapira’s state of mind when writing his VMI articles, see this transcript of his phone call with Bill Wyatt, VMI director of communications.

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/app/uploads/2021/02/transcript.jpg

    Shapira: “The law firm says VMI has hindered its investigation with a demand that VMI representatives be present for the firm’s interviews with cadets and employees.”

    As Wyatt correctly observed, no, the law firm never used the word “hindered.”

    Fortunately, as I recall, the verb “hinder” did not appear in Shapira’s story. But it’s revealing that that’s how he interpreted the report.

  20. Regarding Ian Shapira’s state of mind when writing his VMI articles, see this transcript of his phone call with Bill Wyatt, VMI director of communications.

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/app/uploads/2021/02/transcript.jpg

    Shapira: “The law firm says VMI has hindered its investigation with a demand that VMI representatives be present for the firm’s interviews with cadets and employees.”

    As Wyatt correctly observed, no, the law firm never used the word “hindered.”

    Fortunately, as I recall, the verb “hinder” did not appear in Shapira’s story. But it’s revealing that that’s how he interpreted the report.

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