Virginia’s Physicians and Nurses Must Take – Yes, Take – More Influence Over Virginia Health Policy

Virginia Health Service Areas and Health Districts

by James C. Sherlock

As I have studied and reported upon Virginia’s struggles in COVID response, many things have come into focus that need to be done better in healthcare. I have reported on a lot of them here and called for changes.

One major, overarching flaw needs attention.  

Virginia’s physicians and nurses do not have sufficient influence over health laws, policy, regulations, Department of Health oversight or health programs.  Physicians and nurses as organized groups largely were neither consulted or listened to in COVID response policy. If you doubt it, ask them. They are beyond frustrated.  

When you needed a COVID vaccination, were you able to get one from your doctor or nurse practitioner? Didn’t think so.

I will recommend here a way to change the balance of influence. It is important to all Virginians that it indeed be altered.

The political power of hospitals

The political power of the hospitals comes from four primary sources:

  • The first, and most important, is their influence born of economic power. Hospitals are a key if not the most influential economic engine in their communities and employ enormous numbers of voters. State-sponsored regional monopolies have consolidated and magnified that impact. With that comes political influence.
  • Second, they are very efficiently organized for political influence.
  • Third, their campaign donations are coordinated through their Richmond organization, providing leverage.
  • The fourth is ruthlessness. Through VHHA in Richmond and direct pressure on local politicians, the hospital systems don’t ask for favors, rather they brook no opposition. I watched a sitting Virginia senator threatened in a public hearing with political retribution by the COO of one of the biggest hospital conglomerates with a lot of employees in his district.

The muted political influence of physicians and nurses

Doctors and nurses are not nearly so well organized, if at all, in the home districts of legislators. They are represented in Richmond, but not nearly all doctors and nurses are members of those organizations. Individually they give a lot of money to political campaigns but their lack of organization dilutes its influence. And they play politics far too gently.  

The results

I spoke of the marginalization of doctors and nurses in COVID. That, in turn, is an outcome of the severe tilt of the entire government of Virginia towards the hospitals.

As a direct result, Virginia’s health policy and the management of the Department of Health are hospital- and business-centric, not physician/nurse centric. It is the business of healthcare that has center stage, not the practice of medicine.  

The Virginia Hospital and Healthcare Association (VHHA) that represents Virginia’s regional hospital monopolies all but officially controls VDH and filters information to it. 

You saw a small peek at that in COVID when VHHA maintained its own online scorecard of near-real-time hospital capacity and performance that was different than that of VDH. Citizens were left to wonder which was right. On balance, the way to bet was VHHA.

The Virginia Board of Health by statute both oversees the Department of Health and by design represents organizations with interests that will come before the Board. All members are appointed by the Governor. Of 15 positions, there are two physicians and two nurses currently serving. The Board of Health is an ongoing embarrassment that itself was marginalized in COVID.

The VDH office that inspects hospital and nursing homes has been understaffed for decades. That is not because they can’t find candidates, but because they are structurally understaffed by state budgets and policy — hospital policy.

Physicians and nurses are marginalized in many hospital systems and in politics

For those who might think that physicians control the hospitals, they are wrong in many cases.  

The Carilion executive team of six people lists only one physician, the Chief Medical Officer. Its Board of Directors has 16 members, one physician.

The executive leadership team at Sentara Health list 26 persons. Beneath the top four positions, that team is diverse in gender and race, but only two of the 26 are M.D.s, and none in the top four positions. Not one CEO of a Sentara hospital is an M.D. The Sentara Health Board of Directors has 17 members, two of which physicians.

Inova leadership on the other hand is packed with doctors and nurses. Perhaps that is why it runs by far the best hospital system in Virginia.

Physicians, nurses and insurers have their own representative bodies in Richmond that attempt to influence state policy, but they are not able to effectively challenge the might of the hospitals. They will have to wrest their share of influence from the hospitals.   

There are three main organizations representing physicians and nurses right now: the Medical Society of Virginia, the Medical Society of Northern Virginia and the Virginia Nurses Association.  

They would tell you that they have been at best marginalized by the executive branch in COVID and are not as influential as they would like with the General Assembly.  

The Governor is a physician, and that hasn’t helped. For those who point to the physicians who occupy the Secretary of Health and Human Resources and Health Commissioner jobs, I will point out that the Secretary came from a management position at Centra and the Health Commissioner from UVa Health and the faculty.  

What to do

So, to get the political influence they deserve and Virginians need them to have, doctors and nurses are going to have to decide they want it and go get it.  

First, I recommend that doctors and nurses reorganize. Establish chapters in each of Virginia’s Health Service Areas (HSA) (map) as components of a central organization in Richmond. A single organization representing doctors and nurses in Richmond would be far more effective that separate ones. They can deal with policy disagreements internally. Hospitals do.

Second, aggressively recruit every doctor and nurse in Virginia to join these organizations and tell them why it matters. Numbers matter.

Third, physicians and nurses who make political donations should consider doing it through their associations and their PACs. That is how the hospitals do it, and its creates far greater political leverage.

Finally, once they consolidate political power, they must use it. Play hardball.


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115 responses to “Virginia’s Physicians and Nurses Must Take – Yes, Take – More Influence Over Virginia Health Policy”

  1. Well done, Jim. Another great exposition on the political economy of health care in Virginia. There are other physicians groups beyond those you mentioned. There is a Richmond Academy of Medicine, and I think Hampton Roads has a counterpart. I don’t know how politically involved they are, however. Moreover, if half the docs in Hampton Roads work for Sentara, Sentara likely has heavy influence in that particular academy.

    There is another player in the healthcare arena, and that’s the insurers. Their trade association, the Virginia Association of Health Plans, has a fraction of the resources and staff that the Virginia Hospital Association does, so, while VAHP is a counterweight to the VHHA on some issues, it is outgunned.

    Also, a couple of decades ago, there was a movement of employer health groups. One of them, I recall, was the Richmond Area Business Group on Health. At one time, they exercised some influence in the General Assembly on behalf of consumers. But all of those groups disbanded. I’m not sure why. Maybe they concluded that fighting the hospital lobby did not yield a viable return on investment.

  2. Well done, Jim. Another great exposition on the political economy of health care in Virginia. There are other physicians groups beyond those you mentioned. There is a Richmond Academy of Medicine, and I think Hampton Roads has a counterpart. I don’t know how politically involved they are, however. Moreover, if half the docs in Hampton Roads work for Sentara, Sentara likely has heavy influence in that particular academy.

    There is another player in the healthcare arena, and that’s the insurers. Their trade association, the Virginia Association of Health Plans, has a fraction of the resources and staff that the Virginia Hospital Association does, so, while VAHP is a counterweight to the VHHA on some issues, it is outgunned.

    Also, a couple of decades ago, there was a movement of employer health groups. One of them, I recall, was the Richmond Area Business Group on Health. At one time, they exercised some influence in the General Assembly on behalf of consumers. But all of those groups disbanded. I’m not sure why. Maybe they concluded that fighting the hospital lobby did not yield a viable return on investment.

  3. Mr. Sherlock, here’s the problem. The Board of Health Professions is about one of the most corrupt groups I’ve ever seen. They protect themselves and the hospitals. That would go for the vets also.

    Get rid of the APA and put in something where regular folks who know what goes on a bit more about the workings, then you’d have something.

    Vic

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      I’ve never dealt with or studied that Board. Can’t comment.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Most of these boards are not altruistic. They’re not looking out for the public interest but theirs. If they could “win” over the hospitals and it came at the expense of the public, too bad.

      In “theory” you have commissions like the SCC to look out for consumers.

      There is no “Association of health care USERS” that I know of.

      1. Thu=is is the closest I could find in the U.S.:

        https://www.americanpatient.org/

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          I stand corrected. and found this:

          “Conservatives for Patients’ Rights (CPR) is a health care pressure group founded by Rick Scott in February 2009. Scott has stated that CPR has an intention of putting pressure on U.S. Democrats to enact health care legislation based on free-market principles.[1] CPR opposes the broad outlines of President Obama’s health care reform plan, and has hired Creative Response Concepts, a public relations firm which previously worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.[2] ”

          Not sure I ever heard Bacon talking about them.

          But this group (americanpatient.org) seems like it’s not a group that advocates setting up state commissions and such – which, if they did, would be a powerful concept but not advocated in BR which seems to be more oriented to opposing hospitals and COPN rather than advocating for what is best for consumers beyond “low price”.

          1. sherlockj Avatar

            You have discovered that “conservatives” hold differing opinions. Hold that thought, and cherish it.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            indeed , and some groups have more interest in direct help to people getting health care, for instance, help in avoiding medical errors than, say COPN.

            So an interest group for people getting health care as opposed to providing it and on a range of issues besides just price transparency and competition.

            Perhaps that is where Conservatives could actually seek to represent people who need health care and gain support?

  4. Mr. Sherlock, here’s the problem. The Board of Health Professions is about one of the most corrupt groups I’ve ever seen. They protect themselves and the hospitals. That would go for the vets also.

    Get rid of the APA and put in something where regular folks who know what goes on a bit more about the workings, then you’d have something.

    Vic

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      I’ve never dealt with or studied that Board. Can’t comment.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Most of these boards are not altruistic. They’re not looking out for the public interest but theirs. If they could “win” over the hospitals and it came at the expense of the public, too bad.

      In “theory” you have commissions like the SCC to look out for consumers.

      There is no “Association of health care USERS” that I know of.

      1. Thu=is is the closest I could find in the U.S.:

        https://www.americanpatient.org/

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          I stand corrected. and found this:

          “Conservatives for Patients’ Rights (CPR) is a health care pressure group founded by Rick Scott in February 2009. Scott has stated that CPR has an intention of putting pressure on U.S. Democrats to enact health care legislation based on free-market principles.[1] CPR opposes the broad outlines of President Obama’s health care reform plan, and has hired Creative Response Concepts, a public relations firm which previously worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.[2] ”

          Not sure I ever heard Bacon talking about them.

          But this group (americanpatient.org) seems like it’s not a group that advocates setting up state commissions and such – which, if they did, would be a powerful concept but not advocated in BR which seems to be more oriented to opposing hospitals and COPN rather than advocating for what is best for consumers beyond “low price”.

          1. sherlockj Avatar

            You have discovered that “conservatives” hold differing opinions. Hold that thought, and cherish it.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            indeed , and some groups have more interest in direct help to people getting health care, for instance, help in avoiding medical errors than, say COPN.

            So an interest group for people getting health care as opposed to providing it and on a range of issues besides just price transparency and competition.

            Perhaps that is where Conservatives could actually seek to represent people who need health care and gain support?

  5. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    Covid Vaccine Distribution update – Becker’s has us at #12 in terms of doses administered as a percentage of doses distributed – 68.96%. In terms of doses administered as a percentage of the population, we are at #11 – 10.49%. The trend has us hitting 70% circa 5/11/2021. We got 74.450 doses from the feds today but none yesterday – so an average of 37,225/day for the time I have been tracking that variable.

    1. Excellent news. It looks like they are getting a handle on it.

      If all of Virginia’s vaccination stations are run even half as efficiently as the one at the Richmond Raceway, where I got my first shot last Friday, then I can understand why we are climbing in the rankings.

      I was in and out in less than ten minutes – not counting the 15 minutes they asked me to wait around afterwards in case of a bad reaction, of course.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Well for GAWD sake don’t give VDH credit! 😉

      1. FYI. Here is the body of an email I sent to the director of the Chickahominy Health District earlier this week:

        Good morning,

        I am writing to compliment you, your staff, and all the paid and volunteer personnel who are operating the Covid-19 vaccination program at the Richmond Raceway. I received my first shot last Friday afternoon and everything went like clockwork. Each and every person I encountered at every step of the process was courteous, friendly, helpful and knowledgeable. The entire operation was a textbook example of competence and efficiency on a large scale.

        Please accept, and pass on, my thanks and profound respect for the fine work you and your organization are doing to distribute the COVID-19 vaccine to the citizens and residents of the Chickahominy Health District.

        Best Regards,

        Wayne S…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Ours was well organized. It took 10 minutes to get the shot and 15 to wait.

          And there were tons of geezers there.. but almost no blacks.

          Could not get a count on Republican geezers … 😉

  6. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    Covid Vaccine Distribution update – Becker’s has us at #12 in terms of doses administered as a percentage of doses distributed – 68.96%. In terms of doses administered as a percentage of the population, we are at #11 – 10.49%. The trend has us hitting 70% circa 5/11/2021. We got 74.450 doses from the feds today but none yesterday – so an average of 37,225/day for the time I have been tracking that variable.

    1. Excellent news. It looks like they are getting a handle on it.

      If all of Virginia’s vaccination stations are run even half as efficiently as the one at the Richmond Raceway, where I got my first shot last Friday, then I can understand why we are climbing in the rankings.

      I was in and out in less than ten minutes – not counting the 15 minutes they asked me to wait around afterwards in case of a bad reaction, of course.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Well for GAWD sake don’t give VDH credit! 😉

      1. FYI. Here is the body of an email I sent to the director of the Chickahominy Health District earlier this week:

        Good morning,

        I am writing to compliment you, your staff, and all the paid and volunteer personnel who are operating the Covid-19 vaccination program at the Richmond Raceway. I received my first shot last Friday afternoon and everything went like clockwork. Each and every person I encountered at every step of the process was courteous, friendly, helpful and knowledgeable. The entire operation was a textbook example of competence and efficiency on a large scale.

        Please accept, and pass on, my thanks and profound respect for the fine work you and your organization are doing to distribute the COVID-19 vaccine to the citizens and residents of the Chickahominy Health District.

        Best Regards,

        Wayne S…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Ours was well organized. It took 10 minutes to get the shot and 15 to wait.

          And there were tons of geezers there.. but almost no blacks.

          Could not get a count on Republican geezers … 😉

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      Rule: never explain a joke.

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      Rule: never explain a joke.

  7. LarrytheG Avatar

    Here’s what citizens who need health care need:

    1. – health insurance that is portable – so they can freely pick the best job for them – anytime they want.

    2.- a law that requires a “portable” electronic health care record – that belongs to the individual and that the provider must record treatment, labs, etc to.

    That citizen can go to ANY provider anytime they want with the assurance that their new provider has immediate access to their entire medical record.

    You do these things and that “market” will take care of itself including COPN.

    In other words, empower the citizen not the competitors.

    Conservatives lean towards top-down command and control of the providers in theory to get a “market” instead of empowering the consumers who need health care and who really are the “market”.

  8. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ain’t it ironical for all the hub bub about va’s Med processionals needing more influence that we have a MD as gov?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      There are those who accuse him of leading a procession.

    2. sherlockj Avatar

      He’s still waiting to see what the parents want to do with the baby.

  9. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ain’t it ironical for all the hub bub about va’s Med processionals needing more influence that we have a MD as gov?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      There are those who accuse him of leading a procession.

    2. sherlockj Avatar

      He’s still waiting to see what the parents want to do with the baby.

  10. sherlockj Avatar

    Larry, some points of concern with your post above.

    First, be careful about wanting providers to have “immediate access to your entire medical record”. It is a double-edged sword.

    We have a law called the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). It dealt with the at the time fairly recent development of the electronic medical record. The law required the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed without the patient’s consent or knowledge. Just be careful. If your record is online without very strong permission controls, it will be hacked.

    Second, portable health insurance and electronic medical records have absolutely nothing to do with COPN. Nothing. COPN is government control of competition put in place by incumbents to protect them from new entrants in the market. It was turned into government-sponsored regional monopolies. “Empower the citizens not the competitors” is, well, a Larryism. You can’t take your portable insurance and medical record to facilities that don’t exist.

    Finally, “Conservatives lean towards top-down command and control of the providers.” Another Larryism. The truth, in this case, is exactly different than you portray it. COPN is “top-down command and control of the providers.” Conservatives oppose it.

    Other than that, good comments.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Jim, all of your records are now online whether you want them to be or not.

      And they can be encrypted and if you think that can be hacked check with law enforcement wanting built-in back doors to encryption.

      Bottom Line – electronic records are no more or less vulnerable than your own bank records.

      And if a provider is going to treat you and minimize errors, they need to know your medical history. It’s actually pretty dumb for either you or your provider to not want that.

      A portable medical record (can also be on a thumb drive) – allows you to pick any medical provider near or far, cheap or not. It becomes your choice not the govt or COPN choice.

      And if you want to see REAL change, than change one small phrase with the current health care law – a person MAY choose either his/her employer-provided health plan OR an ACA plan aka Obamacare. That would change the way that insurers “work” with providers in dramatic ways.

      re: Conservatives – Yep.. They choose not of these options that would actually empower individuals to make choices and in doing so , make markets actually “work”.

      What Conservatives are doing about healthcare in the US is what no other country on planet earth has done and for good reason – what the Conservatives are trying to do is work for the providers and supposed “competition” no matter whether it serves the best interests of consumers or not.

      COPN is a good example. The basic premise seems to be that competition that delivers the lowest price is what consumers need.

      Nope. NADA. What they need is CHOICE on all aspects of health care that extend far beyond price alone. COPN does not fix that.

      FINALLY, if you combine COPN with a provision that helps providers – hospitals AND “competitors” deal with charity care – then I’d be onboard with COPN, but not until.

      COPN without that basically imposes costs on hospitals that they have no way to recover. It actually harms them as competitors.

      1. sherlockj Avatar

        ” electronic (medical) records are no more or less vulnerable than your own bank records”. Exactly.

        I favor EMR’s. I was in the business of marketing them very early on. I just said be careful with your recommendations on reducing the role of patient permissions.

        Your comment on COPN: “The basic premise seems to be that competition that delivers the lowest price is what consumers need. Nope. NADA. What they need is CHOICE on all aspects of health care that extend far beyond price alone. COPN does not fix that.”

        I am having trouble unpacking that statement. I don’t think you yet understand what COPN does and what it doesn’t do.

        The COPN process is a roadblock not a gateway. It denies competition and reduces access by design. Additionally it has built regional monopolies by the choices of individual Health Commissioners, not the law. That is all it does. That’s it. There is nothing else.

        It is not the federal or state licensing processes that control how providers do what they do. It is not the federal or state inspection processes that are supposed to make sure they play by the rules.

        You regularly try to redefine COPN here. Try starting with what COPN is and what it is not and never was.

        1. sherlockj Avatar

          Larry, by your own admission above, you got your information from Wiki. If that is your source, no offense, you have no idea how Virginia’s Certificate of Public Need program has worked since 1973.

          The Wiki piece is not about COPN, it is about generic CON laws. And if you think COPN is “supposed to deliver competition” I have a bridge to sell you. Virginia’s COPN law was changed after the 2008 COPN scandal to require the Health Commissioner to “consider” competition. i am sure that has kept them up nights.

          No reason you would know it, but the 37 states that still have CON laws vary from:
          – Ohio, which regulates only nursing homes;
          – to Maryland, whose CON program is run by the Maryland Health Care Commission, an independent regulatory agency with an extremely distinguished membership;
          – to Virginia, which regulates every type of healthcare facility and nearly every testing machine made, and does it with final decision authority in the hands of a single political appointee. Only Virginia has overtly created regional monopolies to the extent we see here. COPN administration is corrupt by design.

          The reason people pay (I hope you contribute) to read what is published here is the essayists have decades of experience in the background of what they are talking about. You can absolutely write whatever you wish, but consider that.

          And consider that while you may disagree with authors about the interpretation of facts, it will usually prove to be a fool’s errand to challenge the facts themselves.

          Going to the Wiki definition of generic CON programs for interpretation of the Virginia implementation of its COPN program since 1973 is just one example.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          Jim – wiki is not a source. It’s a list of references to sources AND it’s not the ONLY thing available to read!

          Tell me what is wrong with trading COPN for a method to help pay for charity care?

          Clear the way for it to work.

          CON/COPN is a favorite conservative ideological concept and the problem is they focus on that to the exclusion of other issues that would also benefit consumers – LIKE being able to pick from different insurance providers instead of being locked in by their job to a network – and that network thing is actually what is enabling the hospitals to monopolize! Yet, Conservatives intransigence to address the WHOLE of health care and instead to focus on their ideological things is really a disservice to those they say they are trying to help – consumers.

          Finally, I understand that hospital costs in Virginia are actually lower than other places despite the claim that COPN increases costs.

          I myself, have received several services from hospitals including scans and my insurance has always covered it. What would COPN do for me – especially if the same hospital is providing charity care also?

        3. sherlockj Avatar

          Several observations/questions:

          Medicaid expansion was the way to pay for charity care for citizens. It is law in Virginia. Republican votes put it over the top in the GA. COPN is still in place.

          Which type of provider do you think “Republicans” want given “unfettered” ability to compete? Define unfettered. Certainly you don’t mean unlicensed. Do you know what the requirements are for licensing of hospitals in Virginia? You should look them up.

          Do you think competition helps consumers when health facilities compete on quality and price for their business in non-emergency procedures? If not why not?

          Finally: You wrote:

          “I myself, have received several services from hospitals including scans and my insurance has always covered it. What would COPN do for me – especially if the same hospital is providing charity care also?”

          Those words are all in the dictionary, but put together like that their meaning is utterly undiscoverable. No one can write those two sentences and claim to have any idea what COPN is.

        4. LarrytheG Avatar

          observations:

          if Medicaid does indeed pay for al charity care then we’re good to go. I don’t think that is the case though and we still need an answer as to how we pay for charity care if Medicaid does not cover it all?

          And I include those would-be competitors of stand-alone facilities. Are they going to take Medicaid and eat what Medicaid does not cover?

          Remember, even Medicare only pays 80%.

          “unfettered” means competitors who have no requirement to provide charity care competing against other competitors who do.

          the rest of the comment is more blather… not worth responding to.

          learn to debate Jim instead of slinging crappola – it just reflects on you. You should be better than this but you’ve got so much of your own ego tied up in this you can’t seem to get free of it.

          Grow up.

        5. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “the rest of the comment is more blather… not worth responding to.

          learn to debate Jim instead of slinging crappola – it just reflects on you. You should be better than this but you’ve got so much of your own ego tied up in this you can’t seem to get free of it.

          Grow up.”

          If irony had a meme, these would be the words accompanying it.

        6. LarrytheG Avatar

          you too rufus… grow up.

          you wouldn’t know irony if it bit you in the butt!

        7. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “LarrytheG | February 4, 2021 at 4:26 pm |
          you too rufus… grow up.”

          So says the individual who routinely chastises SME’s and their opinions because he read something on Wikipedia without understanding it.

          Oh but I do, and clearly it’s got your picture next to it with your sh!t eating grin.

        8. LarrytheG Avatar

          Rugus – Wikipedia is NOT a source of information but it IS a compendium of authoritative references. Most dufuses eventually figure that out but there are some hard cases.

        9. Larry,

          I have a very serious question of great import:

          Is the correct spelling “dufus” or “doofus”?

        10. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “LarrytheG | February 4, 2021 at 4:32 pm |
          Rugus – Wikipedia is NOT a source of information but it IS a compendium of authoritative references. Most dufuses eventually figure that out but there are some hard cases.”

          Larry,

          You use it as your primary source, it’s an aggregate which coveys the information bias and all of the editor. It doesn’t provide you any details beyond that, as it’s clear you do not seek out the citations they provide.

          So you’re saying you’re a “hard case”?

          Also, you’re creation of attempted demeaning names is just laughable at this point if not sad.

          It’s like me spelling hoser with a “zed”.

  11. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    Clearly Mr. Sherlock is an SME on the topic and yet you continue to argue with him about the topic. You also continue to read “Republicans’” minds on what they think or believe.

    COPN’s do not do as they intended.

    Don’t take my word for it or Mr. Sherlock the SME’s word for it, take the advocacy group of Medical Professionals word for it.

    https://www.msv.org/advocacy/issues/certificate-public-need-copn

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      The basic issue is who has to eat the charity care. If you force SOME competitors to eat it and others do not – that’s not exactly a true competitive market.

      I’m fine with getting rid of COPN as long as we don’t make some competitors pay and others not.

      and folks who represent themselves as “market” conservatives should advocate that also – a level playing field.

      Instead they want to hobble the hospitals because they say they are a “monopoly”.

      Notice in all of this – there is no concern for the consumer from the anti-COPN folks.

      Their premise is that removing COPN will lower the cost of health care but that’s simply not the truth. It will lower SOME costs of SOME services for SOME people who don’t have insurance or have insurance that won’t cover 100%

      But that’s not really the essential problem to start with.

      It’s an ideological thing on the part of Conservatives. If they REALLY cared about improving the health care of consumers – they would advocate for the range of things that have potential – not just focus on one thing like COPN and at the same time undermine things like Medicaid Expansion and the ACA.

      got that?

      and I’m especially reactive to egotistical blowhards…

      1. sherlockj Avatar

        “The basic issue is who has to eat the charity care. If you force SOME competitors to eat it and others do not – that’s not exactly a true competitive market. I’m fine with getting rid of COPN as long as we don’t make some competitors pay and others not.”

        A straw man of the first order. In what web search did you find someone advocating requiring some competitors to provide charity care and others not? Answer: you did not.

        With that straw man aflame, I take you at your word that you are fine with getting rid of COPN. Welcome to the team.

      2. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Do you even bother to read what your either linked or provided before commuting.

        “MSV Supports
        Legislation that modernizes COPN regulations and meets the criteria specified for patient safety, accreditation, quality, and charity care.
        Reforming charity care to increase the number of charity care providers and increase access to care. Reforms must also contain enforceable standards for charity care.

        Clearly you don’t have an iota of a clue of what “Conservatives” think or believe.

        “and I’m especially reactive to egotistical blowhards…”

        A very interesting choice of words.

        “: characterized by egotism : having, showing, or arising from an exaggerated sense of self-importance”

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          re: ” Reforms must also contain enforceable standards for charity care. ”

          I DID read that – and it means that THEY AGREE with my position!

          re: very interesting: let me amend that: Ad Hom attacks and insults carried out by egotistical blowhards…who can’t handle debate.

          better…

  12. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    I’d think “oo”. It lends silliness to the sight of the word, i.e., written, it looks silly.
    “He was stoopid. He was a doofus.”

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      at this point… worrying about spelling is tantamount to navel gazing..though

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        It’s a small mind that only knows one spelling for a word. After all, it’s all fonics. Onomatopoeia to the extreme.

  13. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    COPN is a broken part in a broken system that is a century in the making. The 1st things you should take away is that a laissez faire free market system won’t work because it never worked — ever, and that chauvinism keeps us from recognizing that.

    Just so we have a starting point. One year. 1900, 1955. Just give me one year in the last 300 years where anyone thinks the medical system last worked.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      tell you what.

      how about you DEFINE what you think COPN is – in a sentence or two.

      and then we’ll go from there if you can handle it … on the merits…

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      How about a candidate for Congress? Sue Lowden.

      The first thing “we” have to stop saying is “we have the best medical system.” We have the most expensive.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Here’s a good run-down on why we are so expensive:

        https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080615/6-reasons-healthcare-so-expensive-us.asp

        and once again – NOT – Wiki for those watching…

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Wiki is a first stop, non-authoritative source of information. It’s great for picking up the terms and keywords for reseach and to get a gist of what’s happening.

          Kinda like asking your buddy with a BSEE if you can just hook up two car batteries to double available amperage in a bank or do you really need to have a charging diode between them. He’s your wiki.

          Before you do it, you *might* want a second opinion.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          re: ” It’s great for picking up the terms and keywords for reseach and to get a gist of what’s happening.”

          exactly.

          But for some things, it can be fairly accurate. For instance, you want to look up a town or a company or a congressman, you DON’T go to THEIR websites!

          On stuff like COPN/CON – they often provide the different viewpoint, i.e. the Pros and Cons… criticisms, etc… From there you can go out and find both the advocates and opponents and understand both viewpoints.

          If you go looking for PRO COPN/CON, you’ll find it on a bunch of Conservative websites like Mercatus, it’s a standard Conservative issue.

        3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          It’s not like Virginia is “going it alone”. There are States with it. There are States without it. Plenty of information available to ascertain its effectiveness and what forms work best. It’s been around for 50+ years and been changed half dozen times.

        4. LarrytheG Avatar

          interestingly enough, California does not have CON and California has a problem with hospitals gobbling up healthcare providers and monopolizing a region by controlling the “networks”.

          “How a hospital system grew to gain market power and drove up California health care costs

          Sutter Health is in the midst of a lawsuit for business practices that drove up health care prices for Californians.

          cbsnews.com/news/california-sutter-health-hospital-chain-high-prices-lawsuit-60-minutes-2020-12-13/

          https://miro.medium.com/max/2340/1*_fHOCB39JmZyrJ_E1cGfHQ.png

    3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Of course, we *could* start with the military medical system and expand it to cover all Americans. A TriCare for Everyone approach.

  14. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    COPN is a broken part in a broken system that is a century in the making. The 1st things you should take away is that a laissez faire free market system won’t work because it never worked — ever, and that chauvinism keeps us from recognizing that.

    Just so we have a starting point. One year. 1900, 1955. Just give me one year in the last 300 years where anyone thinks the medical system last worked.

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      OK, same web challenge I offered Larry.

      In what web search did you find someone in the last 50 years advocating a laissez faire free market healthcare system?

      You conflate COPN with licensing and then offer “isn’t it awful” what “they” want to destroy. You can do better than that.

  15. LarrytheG Avatar

    Hospitals have to cover a wide range of services – like snakebite – that they may or may not see cases but they have to have enough kits or else get blamed for not having it and someone dies.

    They have to have a 24/7 advanced lab that can handle tests they may seldom see but again, if they don’t have that test and someone dies for lack of it they will get blamed or even sued.

    These ambulatory clinics – stand alone and in doctor’s office are basically profit-centers..that add to their bottom line. They’re predatory competitors – they skim the profitable services and don’t do the costly ones , and send them to the hospital which has to do them no matter what it costs.

    All of this COPN is driven by a combination of conservative ideology and profit-seeking enterprises who want the profit but not the costs.

    Got a snakebite or a life-threatening threat? Don’t go to them. Go to the hospital. Got a life-threatening condition? Don’t go to an ambulatory clinic unless you want to risk dying. They don’t do that stuff.

    When many of the larger hospitals are now offering MyChart – it means that when you do get an x-ray or MRI that your doctor may well see that in MyChart also. If you get a scan at a stand-alone or some other doctor – your own doctor may or may not see it or see it in a timely manner because their motive is profit not necessarily your overall care.

    You get the scan, it shows a problem and then where do you go? To the hospital or a specialist , right? And they will sometimes tell you that you need a more specialized scan that the stand-alones don’t do.

    All I’m really saying here is that it’s not near as simple as some would have you believe.

    Health care is simply not a free market thing. No where on the planet is it except in 3rd world countries where dollars buy better health care and those without dollars just die.

    IN all other developed countries the MRIs cost LESS than the US and it has nothing to do with free market! Yet Conservatives in this country continue t insist that a “market” will result in lower costs by essentially advocating for cherry-picking profit providers… not full range providers that eat the charity cases.

  16. LarrytheG Avatar

    Hospitals have to cover a wide range of services – like snakebite – that they may or may not see cases but they have to have enough kits or else get blamed for not having it and someone dies.

    They have to have a 24/7 advanced lab that can handle tests they may seldom see but again, if they don’t have that test and someone dies for lack of it they will get blamed or even sued.

    These ambulatory clinics – stand alone and in doctor’s office are basically profit-centers..that add to their bottom line. They’re predatory competitors – they skim the profitable services and don’t do the costly ones , and send them to the hospital which has to do them no matter what it costs.

    All of this COPN is driven by a combination of conservative ideology and profit-seeking enterprises who want the profit but not the costs.

    Got a snakebite or a life-threatening threat? Don’t go to them. Go to the hospital. Got a life-threatening condition? Don’t go to an ambulatory clinic unless you want to risk dying. They don’t do that stuff.

    When many of the larger hospitals are now offering MyChart – it means that when you do get an x-ray or MRI that your doctor may well see that in MyChart also. If you get a scan at a stand-alone or some other doctor – your own doctor may or may not see it or see it in a timely manner because their motive is profit not necessarily your overall care.

    You get the scan, it shows a problem and then where do you go? To the hospital or a specialist , right? And they will sometimes tell you that you need a more specialized scan that the stand-alones don’t do.

    All I’m really saying here is that it’s not near as simple as some would have you believe.

    Health care is simply not a free market thing. No where on the planet is it except in 3rd world countries where dollars buy better health care and those without dollars just die.

    IN all other developed countries the MRIs cost LESS than the US and it has nothing to do with free market! Yet Conservatives in this country continue t insist that a “market” will result in lower costs by essentially advocating for cherry-picking profit providers… not full range providers that eat the charity cases.

  17. sherlockj Avatar

    Dear readers. My essay was not about COPN or single payer healthcare or the cost of MRIs or the Uighurs. It was about doctors and nurses organizing to offset the political power of the hospitals. Anyone have any thoughts about that?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Hell, that’s illegal in Texas! I knew it! Git’em boys! He’s a damned union organizer!

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Joking aside, that is a snag in the Sherman Act. Imagine if all auto mechanics set the price of an oil change at $200. As an employee of a hospital, even an HMO (in Texas) doctors can organize to bargain over “wages”. As independent providers, organizing is illegal. Obviously, it’s more nuanced than that, e.g., TPMG, and insurance negotiations.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Well, auto mechanics sorta do that already, right? They work off of a concept known as “flat rate” which works a little like medical diagnostic codes in that it describe every repair in terms of parts and labor (time to do the repair).

        Not 100% but you’ll often get similar estimates – even for things like oil changes which are around $70 for synthetic with the oil being maybe at third to a half of the cost, a marked up oil filter and the rest the labor in the oil change.

        Sometimes (at least in my case), the dealer can be no more expensive and sometimes less if you car is still under warranty.

        Make no mistake – this is about various “interest” groups who provide medical services and their resistance against larger hospitals systems dominating the market – like Sutter Healthcare in northern California which has essentially co-opted so many providers and negotiated who are in that “network” to the point where if you are not in that network – you’re being squeezed out.

        It’s not really about nurses getting higher wages or consumers paying lower prices for services or getting better services…

        it’s two group in business doing battle over the business perhaps a little like the mom/pop battles against big box stores.

        My opinion, yes, perhaps with some ignorance and I’m sure there are others.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          That’s how hospitals work too, except their “book” is just made up BS and individual to each hospital, which in concession to the Cap’n, holds huge sway over a given area.

          The mechanic’s book does have rhyme and reason. Changing an fuel pump on a 1968 Chevy 350 does take about 1 hour. So the cost at two shops vary by the part shopper they use and the hourly rate they charge.

          The cost of an appendectomy at Sentara Norfolk and Sentara Hampton could be $5,000 and $50,000 respectively. Not because it really costs that, but because when they negotiate the cost with an insurance company, it’s their leverage point. It’s just to assure they get enough for removing an appendix to cover a pneumonia patient. A $250 aspirin goes a long way to covering losses on other supplies and services.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Like Walmart – consistency of mark-up prices is not. The mark-up on a 2 liter coke is many times the mark-up on milk which sometimes is said to be sold at a lost – “depending” on things like competition.

            What’s different between auto repair and Walmart is the 3rd party insurance which pays and which limits how much they will reimburse.

            A few years back – in Fredericksburg – Mary Washington Hospital got into a battle with Anthem over reimbursement rates and for a awhile the hospital would not accept Anthem reimbursements as payment, essentially meaning those with Anthem had to go elsewhere.

            The same thing happens to individual providers. Anthem tells them how much they will pay per diagnostic procedure – and they accept that or they won’t accept Anthem for payment.

            So Anthem has “networks” which are those providers, hospitals and non-hospital providers who have “agreed” to accept Anthems payments for services.

            Perhaps it’s possible if the non-hospital providers also got together in a group, they might be able to negotiate higher reimbursement rates.

            But, please note, very little of this actually has to do with what is best for consumers. It’s a battle between providers and insurers over what is best for them.

            And where there actually is not government restriction on how many or what kind of providers – such as in a state like California – Hospital systems are actually reaching out and establishing direct relationships with some providers that then are covered by the hospital negotiation with the insurance providers.

            So the Hospitals essentially develop their own “networks” as a strategy to counter insurance companies AND other providers not affiliated and de-facto competitors.

            There is no one at that table for consumers for the most part as far as I have been able to find.

        2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Oh, but if a mechanic develops a trick to change that fuel pump in 15 minutes and they charge me an hour, that’s not to say I want a doctor using a trick to remove my appendix… although, there was a surgeon who did exactly that.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            It DOES happen ! 😉 And one might argue that it’s a just reward for productivity!

          2. “…that’s not to say I want a doctor using a trick to remove my appendix… although, there was a surgeon who did exactly that.”

            A trick? Did he toss some microbes on the floor, yell “fetch” and then sew you back up before the appendix had a chance to reenter your body?

          3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            He was a Hollywood surgeon with an extremely long pinkie finger. He removed a healthy appendix through a 1″ incision thereby eliminating the chance of a scar. Well worth the money to a starlett with a perfect body.

    3. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      It won’t happen, the turn over rate at Hospitals especially in Virginia is too high. If you attempt to organize and buck the system, they’ll just terminate you and fill you position with someone new.

      People take issue with prices at Hospitals, much like the Government they are paying for the Administration not the service.

      INOVA runs fellowship classes for their new Nurses every quarter, they are typically 20+ Nurses.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Hospital prices, higher Ed prices, cable TV prices, electricity prices… gasoline prices…and the ALL TIME favorite – TAXES – bitch bitch bitch!

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          That had what to do with my statement regarding Physicians and Nurses organizing for Political Action?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            was not directed to you so I put it in the wrong place. my bad.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Try harder.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          I will. I will. Massa.

        3. Come on, Matt, when someone admits they are wrong we should be gracious in our response. Please.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            I thought that WAS gracious – for you guys! 😉

          2. Seriously? When have I ever been ungracious to you after you have admitted a mistake?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            really? never?

          4. Can you provide an example? If so, I will apologize for my ungraciousness on the occasion in question.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            just an overall feeling of the interactions… and ain’t
            going to spend time pouring over conversations…
            but I do note your current interactions which seem a little prickly
            than before.

            but you still seem to be a ‘stickler” on some things that I am
            pretty sloppy at, so maybe we improve?

          6. Speaking of being a stickler , the correct word is “pore” or “poring” in the context you were using…

            😉

            Sorry, couldn’t help myself. I am a jackass and I know it.

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “WayneS | February 5, 2021 at 8:35 am | Reply
            Come on, Matt, when someone admits they are wrong we should be gracious in our response. Please.”

            It was disingenuous and after the diatribe he went on yesterday that was deleted, I’ll pass.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Think that’s high? Wait until (if) this pandemic winds down. I imagine a large number are on empty and operating on highly stressed sense of duty. PTSD or similar will decimate the ranks.

        1. Unfortunately, I think you are right.

  18. sherlockj Avatar

    Dear readers. My essay was not about COPN or single payer healthcare or the cost of MRIs or the Uighurs. It was about doctors and nurses organizing to offset the political power of the hospitals. Anyone have any thoughts about that?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Hell, that’s illegal in Texas! I knew it! Git’em boys! He’s a damned union organizer!

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Joking aside, that is a snag in the Sherman Act. Imagine if all auto mechanics set the price of an oil change at $200. As an employee of a hospital, even an HMO (in Texas) doctors can organize to bargain over “wages”. As independent providers, organizing is illegal. Obviously, it’s more nuanced than that, e.g., TPMG, and insurance negotiations.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Well, auto mechanics sorta do that already, right? They work off of a concept known as “flat rate” which works a little like medical diagnostic codes in that it describe every repair in terms of parts and labor (time to do the repair).

        Not 100% but you’ll often get similar estimates – even for things like oil changes which are around $70 for synthetic with the oil being maybe at third to a half of the cost, a marked up oil filter and the rest the labor in the oil change.

        Sometimes (at least in my case), the dealer can be no more expensive and sometimes less if you car is still under warranty.

        Make no mistake – this is about various “interest” groups who provide medical services and their resistance against larger hospitals systems dominating the market – like Sutter Healthcare in northern California which has essentially co-opted so many providers and negotiated who are in that “network” to the point where if you are not in that network – you’re being squeezed out.

        It’s not really about nurses getting higher wages or consumers paying lower prices for services or getting better services…

        it’s two group in business doing battle over the business perhaps a little like the mom/pop battles against big box stores.

        My opinion, yes, perhaps with some ignorance and I’m sure there are others.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          That’s how hospitals work too, except their “book” is just made up BS and individual to each hospital, which in concession to the Cap’n, holds huge sway over a given area.

          The mechanic’s book does have rhyme and reason. Changing an fuel pump on a 1968 Chevy 350 does take about 1 hour. So the cost at two shops vary by the part shopper they use and the hourly rate they charge.

          The cost of an appendectomy at Sentara Norfolk and Sentara Hampton could be $5,000 and $50,000 respectively. Not because it really costs that, but because when they negotiate the cost with an insurance company, it’s their leverage point. It’s just to assure they get enough for removing an appendix to cover a pneumonia patient. A $250 aspirin goes a long way to covering losses on other supplies and services.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Like Walmart – consistency of mark-up prices is not. The mark-up on a 2 liter coke is many times the mark-up on milk which sometimes is said to be sold at a lost – “depending” on things like competition.

            What’s different between auto repair and Walmart is the 3rd party insurance which pays and which limits how much they will reimburse.

            A few years back – in Fredericksburg – Mary Washington Hospital got into a battle with Anthem over reimbursement rates and for a awhile the hospital would not accept Anthem reimbursements as payment, essentially meaning those with Anthem had to go elsewhere.

            The same thing happens to individual providers. Anthem tells them how much they will pay per diagnostic procedure – and they accept that or they won’t accept Anthem for payment.

            So Anthem has “networks” which are those providers, hospitals and non-hospital providers who have “agreed” to accept Anthems payments for services.

            Perhaps it’s possible if the non-hospital providers also got together in a group, they might be able to negotiate higher reimbursement rates.

            But, please note, very little of this actually has to do with what is best for consumers. It’s a battle between providers and insurers over what is best for them.

            And where there actually is not government restriction on how many or what kind of providers – such as in a state like California – Hospital systems are actually reaching out and establishing direct relationships with some providers that then are covered by the hospital negotiation with the insurance providers.

            So the Hospitals essentially develop their own “networks” as a strategy to counter insurance companies AND other providers not affiliated and de-facto competitors.

            There is no one at that table for consumers for the most part as far as I have been able to find.

        2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Oh, but if a mechanic develops a trick to change that fuel pump in 15 minutes and they charge me an hour, that’s not to say I want a doctor using a trick to remove my appendix… although, there was a surgeon who did exactly that.

          1. “…that’s not to say I want a doctor using a trick to remove my appendix… although, there was a surgeon who did exactly that.”

            A trick? Did he toss some microbes on the floor, yell “fetch” and then sew you back up before the appendix had a chance to reenter your body?

          2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            He was a Hollywood surgeon with an extremely long pinkie finger. He removed a healthy appendix through a 1″ incision thereby eliminating the chance of a scar. Well worth the money to a starlett with a perfect body.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            It DOES happen ! 😉 And one might argue that it’s a just reward for productivity!

    3. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      It won’t happen, the turn over rate at Hospitals especially in Virginia is too high. If you attempt to organize and buck the system, they’ll just terminate you and fill you position with someone new.

      People take issue with prices at Hospitals, much like the Government they are paying for the Administration not the service.

      INOVA runs fellowship classes for their new Nurses every quarter, they are typically 20+ Nurses.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Think that’s high? Wait until (if) this pandemic winds down. I imagine a large number are on empty and operating on highly stressed sense of duty. PTSD or similar will decimate the ranks.

  19. ksmith8953 Avatar
    ksmith8953

    Interesting comments. When interviewed by the Virginia Mercury yesterday, my comments included a question as to why more doctors weren’t being asked as to who in your opinion needs the vaccine now? Wouldn’t primary care doctors know this better than the local health department?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I would have two thought about primary care doctors being a primary deliverer of vaccines.

      First, the fact that some folks either don’t have a primary care doc or if they do, it may be a long time since they visited. Many records like phone records are on paper not on electronic and old. Some patients may have moved or changed doctors, died or gone into homes.

      Then someone would have to sit down and try calling these folks in the age of SPAM calling.

  20. ksmith8953 Avatar
    ksmith8953

    Interesting comments. When interviewed by the Virginia Mercury yesterday, my comments included a question as to why more doctors weren’t being asked as to who in your opinion needs the vaccine now? Wouldn’t primary care doctors know this better than the local health department?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I would have two thought about primary care doctors being a primary deliverer of vaccines.

      First, the fact that some folks either don’t have a primary care doc or if they do, it may be a long time since they visited. Many records like phone records are on paper not on electronic and old. Some patients may have moved or changed doctors, died or gone into homes.

      Then someone would have to sit down and try calling these folks in the age of SPAM calling.

  21. ksmith8953 Avatar
    ksmith8953

    In essence, they may have been left out of Covid decisions due to your explanation above as being marginalized by politics. Perhaps it is their own culture of science vs politics. I agree, they need to organize.

  22. ksmith8953 Avatar
    ksmith8953

    In essence, they may have been left out of Covid decisions due to your explanation above as being marginalized by politics. Perhaps it is their own culture of science vs politics. I agree, they need to organize.

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