UVa’s Ever-Expanding Bureaucracy: Student Advising Edition

by James A. Bacon

University of Virginia old-timers (like myself) remember what it was like to find help in picking courses and deciding majors. We’d latch ourselves onto a professor who took an interest in us, and he or she would walk us through the process. It did require some initiative on our part to reach out, but then, we were accustomed to taking matters into our own hands. I was fortunate. My advisor, history professor Joseph C. Miller, was not only a charismatic teacher and a leading scholar in his field, but he regarded the care and tending of students — even lowly undergraduates like me — as part of his vocation.

That’s not the way it works anymore. Faculty members are still expected to play a role in advising students, but it is a much diminished one. At UVa, responsibility for dispensing advice has been bureaucratized.

At the UVa Board of Visitors meeting Wednesday, the Ryan administration highlighted what it is doing to improve student advising. The dominant themes of the session were (1) the student experience is lacking for many, and (2) the answer is hiring more advisors and investing in the latest, greatest technology.

The picture that emerged is that UVa has numerous fragmented initiatives at the school and college level but no coherent university-wide vision. Practices vary widely. The cost of programs was not discussed. No cost-benefit analysis has been conducted. With no clear objectives beyond “we want to be the best,” there are no logical limits to an endless expansion of programs.

It was evident from the presentations that some very earnest, well-meaning people have been working on the issue for a considerable time, but the Board heard no analysis of how the perceived problem came to be, nor did anyone suggest that the answer might be returning responsibility for advising students to the professors. Blasted with a firehose of information, Board members were given little time to formulate questions.

One obvious question, never posed, is how much it costs to advise students. The inflation-adjusted cost of “student services,” of which student advising is a significant component, increased 22.4% between 2012 and 2022. To what degree does expansion of advising programs contribute to the ever-rising cost of running the university — costs that must in turn be covered by higher tuition?

Brie Gertler, vice president for academic affairs, led off the discussion with the observation that UVa has one of the highest retention rates and graduation rates in the country, immediately raising the question of what the problem was. If few UVa students transfer, and if the overwhelming majority graduate on time, how is the advice they’re getting deficient?

Instead, Gertler raised the bar on what should be expected. “We want more,” she said. “We want students to take everything UVa has to offer.” Like what? Well, like internships. And participation in student government and student clubs. UVa should prepare students to “thrive” after they graduate, she said.

Sensing that something was amiss in the way UVa approached advising, a specially appointed task force studied the issue and, as tasks forces are by their nature inclined to do, identified problems and made recommendations.

UVa is a complex institution, with eight different schools for undergraduates. UVa allows undergrads to take classes and declare minors in different schools, which can make it difficult to coordinate. That sounded like a real, though solvable, issue, but according to Gertler, so much more should  be done. Student needs transcend administrative silos. UVa must evolve toward a system of “holistic” advising that encompasses academics, career preparation, belonging and inclusion, and wellbeing, she said. “A struggle in any of these areas affects a student in other areas.”

Kathryn Densberger, director of academic student support, briefed the board on the vast array of “resources” that are available to students. To help them find those resources, UVa has rolled out a new website and launched a “chatbot” to answer questions. The website does serve the useful function of organizing a vast body of information. It covers far more than nuts and bolts like how to register for classes or who is offering internships. It links to pages devoted to such warm and fuzzies as “caring for your whole self,” “well being,” and “getting involved.”

Board member Doug Wetmore asked if “the onus” is on students to seek this material themselves or if there is a “structure” to proactively connect them with the resources.

The answer: The onus should not be on the students. UVa needs to build a structure that would spoon feed them the information they need when they need it.

To help provide that structure, UVa is working with Stellic Inc. to set up an “advising” platform that will allow students to view all the courses they’ve taken, track their progress toward graduation, and identify and schedule classes they need to take in order to complete their degree. This productivity tool is due to be available to students by the fall of 2024.

The only mild pushback of the Board session occurred in regards to the Stellic platform. Rector Robert D. Hardie asked if the Stellic software might take humans out of the advising equation. “I have five data points in my family,” he said. “They would love to do this on their computer” without any human intervention.

Provost Ian Baucom insisted that the software would supplement human advisors, not substitute for them.

Engineering Dean Jennifer West presented what was styled a success story. In 2015 the engineering school moved to a system of “embedded advising” and “embedded support” for students, with the goal of making advising and support services more readily accessible for engineering students. First-year engineering students see their advisor twice a week during the first semester. Moreover, students who don’t get along with their advisor have access to two free-floating “student success counselors.” The arrangement was deemed so successful, the school is adding “enhancements” — increasing the frequency of contacts with faculty advisors, adding more career development programming, and subjecting the first-year advisors to monthly training sessions.

By way of justification, West noted that UVa’s engineering school has a four-year graduation rate of 92%, up from 89% before the program was implemented,  compared to 32% nationally. However, she did not provide the comparable national number before 2014. Was UVa’s incremental, three percentage-point gain over eight years attributable to the new system or other factors? There is no way of telling.

Christa Davis Acompora, dean of the College of Arts & Sciences, took a different tack. In her presentation, she said forthrightly that the system for pre-major advising in the College “is not working.” She was emphatic on the point. But the path forward, she added, “is not entirely clear.” What will likely emerge, she suggested, is a “sustainable resource model that is worthy of investment.” Translation of academic gobbledygook: something that costs more money.

Elaborating on the nature of the problem, Acompora said a survey found that students give high marks to their academic experience but lower scores to their advising experience. The gap suggests that a deficiency exists.

How to fix that deficiency is another question. “A lot of people are dedicated to advising already,” Acompora said. The problem, she explained, is that they are not well connected.

“The College’s web of support is no less populated than many institutions, however, there is no ‘guide’ to shepherd new students as they begin their journey at UVA,” states a chart in her presentation (page 47). Guidance for academics, career planning, belonging & inclusion, and health & wellbeing are fragmented and scattered.

One logical conclusion from Acompora’s presentation is that Arts & Sciences has ample resources for advising students but is managing them poorly. Acompora never said that outright, however, and no one on the Board questioned her about it.

It’s not even clear that a problem exists. According to the data she presented, 71% of UVa students responding to a multi-institutional survey said they had access to academic advisors and 64% rated the quality of their experience highly. That was lower than the 83% and 78% figures respectively for peer research institutions.

The comparison sounds unfavorable but what does it tell us? Maybe peer institutions are spending too much to too little effect. Maybe the answer is for UVa professors to spend more time advising students, not to hire more support staff.

Acompora addressed only academic advising. What about the proliferation of advisors for non-academic concerns? Are students clamoring for health & wellness advice? Are they demanding administrative help on how to achieve belonging & inclusion? Why is the answer always creating more “programs” and hiring more staff? Those questions were not asked.

Summing up the session, Hardie told the Board, “We’ve been talking about this since 2013.” 

Based on the presentations, the Board arguably needs to talk about the topic a lot longer.


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61 responses to “UVa’s Ever-Expanding Bureaucracy: Student Advising Edition”

  1. But if it helps even one undergraduate improve their “student experience” then any expense will be worth it…

    1. William O'Keefe Avatar
      William O’Keefe

      WowWayne! That is quite a statement. It maybe that that kind of mindset got us an out of control national debt.

      1. DJRippert Avatar

        I think his “sarcasm indicator” was turned on.

        1. No! Really?

      2. Matt Adams Avatar

        That sure is a hot teak for a clear case of sarcasm.

        1. Here’s the key: Ellipses at the end of one of my sentences generally indicate that the statement lies somewhere along the hyperbole-sarcasm-facetiousness spectrum.

          Not always – but often enough that it’s a safe bet.

      3. It’s a spoof of the “if it saves only one life then it will be worth it…” statement some people make when they want to pass a law that infringes on individual freedom.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Like pro-life?

          1. Yes. And anti-gun.

        2. William O'Keefe Avatar
          William O’Keefe

          You have my apology for taking you literally.

          1. No worries!

            If you’re ever in doubt, it’s probably best to just assume my comment is not to be taken seriously.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I assume by “experience” you are also including successfully graduating in the field for which the student is best suited, or at all as a minimum.

      1. Yeah, I guess – if they want a diploma from U-V-A…

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Well, I certainly wouldn’t want such a diploma.

          Apparently, Yoo-vee-eh? is like the Hotel California in that you can never leave. It’s been 40 years for these guys and they b**ch about the place incessantly.

          It’s not a school, it’s a disease of the mind.

        2. Matt Adams Avatar

          Who needs a diploma from that higher rated VaTech anyways!

        3. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Well, I certainly wouldn’t want such a diploma.

          Apparently, Yoo-vee-eh? is like the Hotel California in that you can never leave. It’s been 40 years for these guys and they b**ch about the place incessantly.

          It’s not a school, it’s a disease of the mind.

      2. Hey!

        Do you think the crisis noted in the article can be more easily addressed if UVA adds a B.A. in “Student Advice” to its school of education?

        On second thought, maybe that should be a Masters level degree.

        And who knows, maybe they already offer it…

  2. But if it helps even one undergraduate improve their “student experience” then any expense will be worth it…

  3. If an engineering school as a 92% success rate, then it is heavily pre-screening students to keep out those who have a less than 90% chance of succeeding. Many schools a little further down the pecking order to not pre-screen (fire wall) the engineering programs but let students try the programs to figure out that they students are not cut out for engineering.

    The problem of faculty members as academic advisors is how much do academics know about preparing for career entry into a non-academic career.

    And last, the real tell on bad counselling is telling student to pursue their passions without any analysis of whether students are economically and mature enough to pursue their passions.

    1. And without asking what their “passions” are. That’s just asking for trouble…

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Of course, you’re assuming that faculty has never worked in “the real world”. I dunno. That’s a stretch.

      1. Having worked in academia, I can say that STEM based professors live in a world where grants and getting grants is what drives their world view. They need a grant to do any research. And once they get a grant, the operate like small government contractors. That is a very different world from getting a job with just an undergraduate degree, from getting summer internship programs, from spending a semester abroad, etc. Academic faculty are not going to discuss where a career field actually matches the personality and the family circumstances of any particular student.

        One can look up how Georgia St University centralized academic and career counseling and uses big data on drive the counselling. And that is at an university that does not 100’s of TJ graduates.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          I worked 40 years in government contracting. It was a real world job. In fact, competing against the GTRIs and the other “academics” was a real pain since their overhead was minimal.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            another aspect of “govt” is like with the Navy Labs… that do collaborate with University profs… for both training and project support – it’s a path for an “intern”.

            Seen it happen… win-win-win!

          2. Considering that universities add a 50% surcharge onto a grant, universities are not cheap other than grad students are cheap and post-docs are salary capped.

    3. And without asking what their “passions” are. That’s just asking for trouble…

      1. As pointed out many times, much of counselling is telling students that they cannot pursue their passion since the job market is horrible such as drama, music, art or that they are not economically capable of pursuing their passion such as a semester abroad, unpaid internships that require parental support, or entry level is low paid jobs in NYC, DC, or LA that also require parental support. How many tenured professors are going to properly advise someone on those issues or even that going to graduate school is not the only option.

        1. Or telling them that pursuing their “passions” is illegal in 44 states and the District of Columbia – not to mention all of Canada…

        2. Or telling them that pursuing their “passions” is illegal in 44 states and the District of Columbia – not to mention all of Canada…

  4. Everyone should review the writing from the book “Parenting to a Degree” that looked at students at Indiana University and how they faired as students.

    One of the points of the book is that large state universities depend upon the parents to do much of the work that could be called counselling such as academic advising, major picking, internships, and career counselling.

    The book also pointed out that knowledgeable parents can tell their children things that a school could never say without getting itself into trouble.

    1. You mean like this? – “I love you son, but you are just not smart enough to be an engineer”.

      😉

    2. You mean like this? – “I love you son, but you are just not smart enough to be an engineer”.

      😉

      1. The way Georgia St would do it is if the student could not make a B in Calculus I, they would be called in and told that getting a degree in engineering is not going to work out and that they need to change to something else. A good example would be getting a degree in Civil Engineering Technology instead of Civil Engineering.

        1. Ah yes, a definite difference in approach by the parent vs. the student advisor…

          1. Matt Adams Avatar

            I seem to recall having an academic advisor (also a EE professor) who utilized the negative reinforcement approach.

            I guess walking into class and telling everyone they are failing, is frowned upon?

        2. The requirement for a B in Calculus (for engineering students) is interesting. Are you aware of any other schools that operate similarly?

          I’m not sure I’m in complete agreement with the idea. Some students are ‘late bloomers’ and/or have adjustment issues during freshman year (when engineering calculus is required). It might not be the best idea to have issues or problems with a single class ruin a student’s chances of reaching their goal.

          On the other hand, I’m sure it can be argued that such a policy weeds out students who are statistically unlikely to make it all the way through to an engineering degree.

        3. Matt Adams Avatar

          I hate to be the bringer of bad news there bub, but no matter if it’s an BSCE or BSCET you’re required Calculus. Also, the notion that you need a B to progress forward, is wrong.

          1. What I wrote is specific for Georgia State. AT GSU, a nursing student is required to have a B- or better in college algebra to proceed. Every major has check points because the school looked back through all of their data and determine what grades in what classes were leading to very low probability of success. Remember, every school does it differently. At the UMich or UC-San Diego, the College of Engineering has its own admission criteria. I suspect that UVA does the same.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar

            “What I wrote is specific for Georgia State. AT GSU, a nursing student is required to have a B- or better in college algebra to proceed.”

            So you first stated Engineering and Calculus and now it’s Nursing and Algebra? That’s just another apples and oranges comparison.

            “Every major has check points because the school looked back through all of their data and determine what grades in what classes were leading to very low probability of success.”

            C is for degree bud, the person who graduates last in their Engineering class, still gets that Engineering Degree.

            “At the UMich or UC-San Diego, the College of Engineering has its own admission criteria. I suspect that UVA does the same.”

            Now you’ve switched to admissions criteria. You just can’t keep in between the mustard and mayonnaise.

            This is exactly why I “quote” you, because the completely erratic comments. There is no logical progression.

        4. The requirement for a B in Calculus (for engineering students) is interesting. Are you aware of any other schools that operate similarly?

          I’m not sure I’m in complete agreement with the idea. Some students are ‘late bloomers’ and/or have adjustment issues during freshman year (when engineering calculus is required). It might not be the best idea to let issues or problems with a single class during their first year of college ruin a student’s chances of reaching their goal.

          On the other hand, I’m sure it can be argued that such a policy weeds out students who are statistically unlikely to make it all the way through to an engineering degree.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar

            It’s not a true statement, GSU’s website lists the requirement to be a C. As has been the case for all core classes since I attended. Gen eds D is for Degree of you feel so inclined to put forth minimal effort.

    3. StarboardLift Avatar
      StarboardLift

      A friend with a child entering the University of Washington just spent an ENTIRE DAY doing Orientation for Parents via Zoom. Years ago when I entered UVA, my dad drove me from out of state, slowed the car down to 15mph and pushed me out the door with a suitcase and an Air Force trunk.

      1. The selective and a above private universities that have the 90% six year graduation rate have been doing parents orientation for decades. It is part of the selling point. These days, part of the parents orientation is so that the parents understand how much has changed and how things like registration, breaks, meal plans actually work.

      2. Oh come on, you’re exaggerating. Admit it. He wasn’t going any faster than 12 mph, was he?

        1. StarboardLift Avatar
          StarboardLift

          Ok maybe 14mph. And I will say that lack of academic/career advising by family did not work out well for me. There were plenty of resources @ UVA but because I thought I knew it all at 18 I didn’t avail myself of them. Led to a lot of what I now know was magical thinking. But I think a forced 1-hour meeting with a live adult is probably as valuable for a student as loads of expensive software. Starting this in high school 10th grade would be ideal.

          1. Everybody knows it all when they’re 18. That’s what makes it such a magical time in our lives.

            And I agree about the ‘forced’ one-hour meetings. Something like that would have helped me as well.

      3. DJRippert Avatar

        Ha ha. My Dad drove me from Alexandria but had the patience to come into my dorm room (103 Emmet). A 20 year Navy vet, he said, “This dorm room would never meet the standards for base housing.”

  5. DJRippert Avatar

    “The inflation-adjusted cost of “student services,” of which student advising is a significant component, increased 22.4% between 2012 and 2022.”

    Inflation-adjusted? Wow.

    There appears to be no accountability at UVa or within our state government regarding the runaway costs of attending UVa. The university is on a path to having a student body that economically resembles a doughnut – students from relatively poor families who receive subsidies and students from relatively rich families who can “pay the freight” for the fiscal incompetence of UVa’s administration. The middle class gets left out.

    This should not be acceptable to the “leadership” at UVa, the Board of Visitors, the Virginia General Assembly or Governor Youngkin.

    Purdue University solved its runaway cost problem by appointing a businessman and former Indiana governor to run the university.

    Purdue has frozen tuition and most fees at 2012-13 levels. This has enabled more students than ever to graduate debt-free.

    Ryan needs to go.

    1. …but preferably not to Purdue.

    1. Teddy007: After a day catching up after a DSL outage, I was not amused by you flagging a whole page of comments. If you don’t like someone’s quoting/commenting style, block or ignore them. If you, or anyone else repeats the same statements multiple times that don’t add to a discussion, those statements will be deleted as off topic.

      1. Hmmm. I didn’t even know we could flag other people’s comments.

        BYW – I apologize for the fetus joke yesterday. It was inappropriate even by my low standards.

        1. We’re all tempted to say inappropriate things now and then. You certainly don’t make a habit of it!

          Clicking on the three little dots in the upper right corner of a comment allows you to choose to ignore a particular individual or to flag a comment for moderation review before it appears online. Justified flags result in deletion while excessive unwarranted use will backfire on the flagger.

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    It’s been 20-some odd years, but a to-remain-unnamed Va State school decided that it would institute a moratorium on part time admissions.

    Their reason?

    Each student is entitled to a 1/2 hour advising session per semester, regardless of full or part time status. This meant that those dirty rotten part time students were eating up roughly 4x the hours as full time students, and this was financially burdensome.

    Fortunately, one of the clever journalism students did a small back-of-the-envelope calculation that set the bean counters afire. The student stated his reasoning thusly; the average faculty member was paid something like $70/hr. Thus, a part time student cost the school $35 just to take 1 to 3 courses.

    BUT, part time students were ALL commuters. This meant that most, if not all, were buying student parking passes at $150 per semester. Moreover, most of these students were night students and used the parking lots at NIGHT when the full time daytime commuter students had left leaving ample space.

    The administration reversed the decision the day the student paper was published.

  7. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    It is far worse and far more nefarious.
    UVA is lowering standards under “equity” – which means equal results as measured by “diversity”, but only measured by race or for STEM purposes, women. Where is the big push to get more men in art history and associated departments? Nursing? Teaching? Only women count for STEM and only race as to “diversity.”

    When you admit people, illegally, based on immutable characteristics, instead of actual intellectual ability, you get two things – lower value of the education for the upper tier and struggling students….who need “support services.” In one of the Faculty Senate meetings I learned a great new Orwellian obfuscation – Provost Baucom said they needed to address some students “under-flourishing.” Seriously. But, since he also wants UVA to be known as Sally Hemings U and has no problem with mandating DEI statements (the new loyalty oath), I am not surprised.

    Maybe the “young adults” should be expected to learn how to act like…adults. If they can vote at 18…. If they are eligible to serve in the military…if UVA treats them as adults and parents (who likely are paying the bills) have to get permission to see grades or what Student Health is doing (I think handing out birth control like candy), then maybe they should learn to navigate the “real world” in the sort of real world of college. And, off point, but make drinking age 18 also. That would eliminate a lot of the UVA Stasi obligations over the students. If they can vote at 18, I see no reason why they can’t decide to drink. Make both 18 or 21 – be consistent.

  8. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    I still have a required book for a history class taken at Va. Tech written by Joseph C. Miller. It was on the slave trade. Soooo good. One of the view books I never sold back to the Va. Tech book store. Tough decision. Free BK Whopper coupon for every 10 dollars you sold back to the school.

  9. VaPragamtist Avatar
    VaPragamtist

    I’m reminded of an example of “advising” at Virginia Tech. The undergraduate student government has 3 full-time staff; a graduate assistant; and an undergraduate wage staffer. Between salary and benefits, that’s about a quarter million per year, all to advise and assist the student government. . .an elected student org (about 75 members) do student government.

    In other words, you could hand each one of them a check for $3,000 to figure it out on their own/ask around and still come out on top.

    But I suppose ridiculous wasteful spending after convincing yourself “we need this” is how government in the real world works. . .so from an experience perspective, there’s that. . .

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