TREATING SEWERAGE RIGHT

The cost of infrastructure to support functional human settlement patterns.

In the comments following the 27 February MORE VOCABULARY post, Larry Gross made a very good observation:

Current methods of treating sewerage adsorbs a lot of energy and are very expensive.

Treating sewerage and other human waste is a cost of contemporary technology-driven Urban civilization. The cost of heath care, safety, education, shelter and access are also very high. Further, the real total cost is much more than is now being paid. That is why the infrastructure to supply these services is deteriorating.

All the essential services could be far more efficient if there were functional human settlement patterns but they would will still cost a lot more than is currently being invested if citizens are to have anything like the level of health, education, safety, shelter and access that is expected in a technologically advanced society.

The results of conventional sewerage treatment prove that what is now being spent is not effective. Humans are polluting the ground water, streams, estuaries and the oceans with their waste. That means a lot more has to be spent to get it right – even with functional settlement patterns, new technology and more efficient operation.

By the citation Larry posted (“Yellow is the New Green” a 27 January story about land application strategies for sewerage in China) he is suggesting there must be a better way.

This may be just another wan attempt to justify scatteration of Urban land uses by a died-in-the-wool 12.5 Percenter but EMR takes it as an attempt to make a constructive suggestion.

Inside the Clear Edge.

EMR has never been a fan of Big Pipe systems.

There are no Regional systems in the US of A but the large SubRegional systems do not have good track records for on supplying water or treating sewerage. It is also clear that the Agencies have been major contributors to dysfunctional settlement patterns.

The multi-Community water and sewer Agencies and Enterprises are rewarded (prestige, pay, etc.) for “growth.” This has led them to historically support higher per capita use and to expand their service to areas not well suited for Urban development. Like highway Agencies that have not negative feedback from dysfunctional settlement patterns, building more is “good” for the water and sewer Organizations if not for citizens or the environment. The examples of bad practice from the Fairfax Water Authority, the Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission, The Washington Aqueduct, etc. fill volumes.

Like Hospitals and Colleges, every Alpha Community should have a Community Water and Sewer Agency that is directly responsible to the citizens of the Community, not Agencies that serve parts of Communities or parts of many Communities.

One overarching problem with traditional Big Pipe systems is mixing clean water with waste and in many cases adding storm water to the same pipes. There is no way to efficiently treat that flow.

When citizens get serious about rebuilding the Urban fabric, systems that recycle blue, green and grey water and use waste to generate energy can be applied at the Cluster and Neighborhood scales (MIUS) within a Community system. That is if there are still resources available to support restructuring given the current trajectory.

There are many ways to cut costs before there is fundamental change in settlement patterns. Some of them involve charging those who dispose of exotic compounds that drive up the cost of treatment – including kitchen garbage disposal units – that make the waste more complex than human waste that has already been digested.

Outside the Clear Edge

There are many excellent strategies to treat human waste in Non-Urban contexts.

The implication that these systems are “cheap” or intrinsically better than Urban solutions or that these systems are a way to justify scatteration of Urban land uses is a terrible Illusion driven by a number of Myths.

Some of Non-Urban waste system costs can be offset by “sweat equity” in both construction and operations but not many like the idea of digging ditches or carrying out pails of night soil.

When the cost of a sophisticated system – including the energy to operate the system – and the cost of inspection and maintenance is totaled up, the real cost is as high per capita as Urban systems – sometimes higher.

Why are there energy costs? Those microbes work for free but only in certain temperature ranges and only with the correct levels of oxygen.

Why must there be inspection and maintenance costs? To insure there are no off-site impacts beyond that of a well managed, state of the art Alpha Community System.

On the general topic of infrastructure, Bruce Katz of Brookings gave a very good talk at the National Governors Conference Winter Meeting in late February. “Strengthening Our Infrastructure for a Sustainable Future.” Not a thing he said was not on target. It was what Bruce he did NOT say – he never mentioned human settlement patterns and it is not possible to have functional infrastructure and dysfunctional settlement patterns.

EMR


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91 responses to “TREATING SEWERAGE RIGHT”

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Further, the real total cost is much more than is now being paid. That is why the infrastructure to supply these services is deteriorating.”

    Hear that Larry? You cannot blame it ALL on new residents.

    RH

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Humans are polluting the ground water, streams, estuaries and the oceans with their waste.”

    And they always will, there is no amount we can spend that will “get it right” if that means no pollution.

    “That means a lot more has to be spent to get it right –”

    Wrong.

    It means we have to decide the correct balance between the cost of not getting it right and the cost of getting it right. You cannot assume the right answer means more money with sewage any more than you can with education.

    The right answer (at least the lowest cost one) will allow some pollution and the right answer will allow some students to fail.

    EMR’s arguments are all about efficiency and low cost, but that means you cannot get 100% of what you want, not even functional settlement patterns, unless funtional means something a lot differnt than what EMR espouses.

    Probably this will take a lot more money, but you cnnot simply say so on this basis. It is possible we willset the standards so high that we just can’t afford them. Particularly if we get hit with triple and quadruple whammies, each from an interest group with only one agenda.

    We get hit simultaneously with 40% higher fuel and electricity bills on account of carbon tax, 20% more expensive cars on account of efficiency requirements that get us 5% more mileage, bigger subsidies for mass transit, and the bill for building the smart grid, and there is going to be a lot of grumbling.

    RH

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “One overarching problem with traditional Big Pipe systems is mixing clean water with waste and in many cases adding storm water to the same pipes. There is no way to efficiently treat that flow. “

    Agreed. Now lets figure the cost in complexity of having a three or four pipe system.

    RH

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Like highway Agencies that have not negative feedback from dysfunctional settlement patterns,”

    Agreed, but don’t forget dysfunctional job patterns.

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “every Alpha Community should have a Community Water and Sewer Agency that is directly responsible to the citizens of the Community, not Agencies that serve parts of Communities or parts of many Communities. “

    But water and sewer districts are based on geographic considerations, not jurisdictional boundaries, this seems like an unneccessay expense and complication in order to make a more functional system.

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There are many excellent strategies to treat human waste in Non-Urban contexts.”

    Yep, my septic system must be close to two hundred years old. Bacteria still work if you give them enough room and enough time.

  7. Larry G Avatar

    If one wants a real solid introduction to the concept of waste management – get an RV with holding tanks.

    First time RV owners usually get the shock of their lives once they've spent several wonderful days of bliss in the home on wheels.

    But then the chickens come home to roost – with a vengeance …

    you say there is a "black water" tank AND a "grey water" tank AND a potable water tank?

    And.. they all have a troublesome thing called – capacity?

    and when the grey and/or black water tanks are "at capacity".. we gotta find a place to drain it?

    We can't just dump it in a ditch?

    Of course you can get the same experience on a multi-day trip on a sailboat also…

    re: crumbling.. not well maintained infrastructure

    … true..

    but not at all the same as the need for NEW… additional.. infrastructure.

    If the infrastructure is not being maintained as well as it should – it is because ALL users who pay monthly/annual fees are not paying enough…

    but whether they pay enough or not to maintain the system – that is a separate and independent cost of having to add new pipes or add additional generation or treatment capacity.

    You can have a situation where new infrastructure is added – to an existing system in need of repairs… much like…we add brand new roads at the same time we have falling down bridges.

    In both cases – the are two distinct pots of money.

    One is to pay for what is known as O&M (operation & maintenance) and the other is paying for new/additional capacity.

    Just because the existing system is in need of repairs – in no way means that you can add new capacity for "free".

    It costs money to do both.

    That's is why most water/sewer systems charge two different fees.

    One.. usually..monthly or quarterly pays for O&M and everyone who has a hookup pays this fee.

    The other fee is called a "hookup or availability" fee and it basically is the cost required to bring a water/sewer connection to your front door – your share of that cost.

    EMR does not quite hit the bulls eye.. though this is a good start.

    Water & Sewer – preferably better technology that we now use – is – …. fundamental … to functional settlement patterns.

    No water/sewer = dysfunctional settlement pattern.

    no?

  8. Larry G Avatar

    also.. you’re gonna to have to reconcile the fact that most 5 acre lots do not have significant runoff problems – MUCH LESS have that runoff go into their sewage treatment facility – the septic tank/field.

    That’s one of the biggest problems with most urbanized areas….

    they have so much impervious surface and most have no cost effective way to deal with it – so when it rains – it overruns their sewage treatment storage and they just release it into the river.

    I would challenge.. Groveton, TMT and Nova Scout to go look at the urban creeks around you the next time it rains and come back and tell us what you see.

    As RH says.. shooting for “pristine” is so impractical in concept and implementation as to be …. essentially a deal-killer for urban settlement patterns unless you want to retrofit them which will make those places even less affordable than they are right now.

    And he’s a real paradox.

    EMR calls these places that spew raw sewage into the rivers – “Functional” settlement patterns that are “sustainable” as opposed to the “dysfunctional” types that don’t make a regular practice of dumping raw sewage into the rivers.

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    EMR picked an unfortunate day for this post.

    Today the Town of Leesburg lost a court battle over water rates. they had been charging people outside the town limits twice as much for water as those inside town limits.

    A judge found that the actual costs did not justify such a difference and ordered a reduction in water rates for those outside of town of up to 40%.

    This will cause an increase in water rates for those in town.

    It would appear that this is a clear repudiation of the 10x rule.

    It would also appear that existing residents (those in town) were handing a screw job to newer residents (those beyond the town borders). I believe Warrenton has a similar rate structure.

    The rate structure in Leesburg has been in place for three years, but it took that long for county residents to get organized and get a hearing. The judge ruled that the law did not allow him to make the restitution retroactive.

    Town residents got away with raiding the pocketbooks of county residents for three years, a clear violation of property rights, and the concept of equal costs for equal environmental services.

    RH

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “re: crumbling.. not well maintained infrastructure

    … true..

    but not at all the same as the need for NEW… additional.. infrastructure.

    If the infrastructure is not being maintained as well as it should – it is because ALL users who pay monthly/annual fees are not paying enough…”

    That is all I’ve been saying, right along. True needs for true new infrastructure can cause immediate problems in the capital budget. It seems fair that this is a legitimate charge to newcomers.

    But it is far too easy to overplay that hand, and the transparency of the various kinds of costs are not there. The Leesburg example is a case in point. The monthly charges should include an amount for contribution to the capital budget. This should cover not only maintenance but normal expansion costs. leesburg town residents were getting their maintenance budget paid for by newer residents outside of town, who probably already paid for their water and sewer extensions through builders fees Since their service is new they may not need much maintenance for decades.

    In a situation like this there is no telling what the magnitude of excess costs could have amounted to over time. I don;t know what the answer is, but the continuous call that new users pay new costs rings false to me, and the leesburg situation tells why.

    So then the question is what is normal? Is it 1/2% growth or 2% or is it really 5% in some areas?

    The situation in Middleburg is a real rito. The town has fought, stalled, and blackmailed the Salamander project for years. They are counting on new revenue (and an ENTIRE) new sewage treatment plant, paid for by Salamander.

    Suddenly, with the economy in the tank the Slamander project is on a go slow, and now that the tables are turned the town is panicking. If the thing had not been fought tooth and nail it would have been finished by now.

    And maybe bankrupt, but who knows?

    RH

  11. Larry G Avatar

    RH – you’re confusing the issue – as usual.

    Hook-up/connection fees are for NEW people…

    the water/sewer rates are for everyone – no matter whether they hooked up this year or 10 years ago…

    Here are the hook-up fees:

    http://www.leesburgva.gov/services/water/fees/

    Here are the RATES:

    http://www.leesburgva.gov/services/water/rate_schedule/

    the problem was not in the hook-up fees for new people but instead in the rates where folks outside of the town boundary were being charged more that those on the inside of the boundary – and that disparity existed no matter how long they had been a user.

    For instance, a brand new user in town.. would get a lower rate than a 10-year old user outside of town..

    so.. it had absolutely nothing to do with whether or no you were a new user.

    New Users – no matter whether they are in town or out of town pay the same exact fee for a new hookup – $11,975.

  12. Larry G Avatar

    re: “That is all I’ve been saying, right along. True needs for true new infrastructure can cause immediate problems in the capital budget. It seems fair that this is a legitimate charge to newcomers. “

    As I recall.. you complain that new folks should not have to pay for infrastructure and/or they are charged too much for it.

    Check my prior post and the link to see that new users are charged about 12K for a hookup.

    This is for new infrastructure needed to service their new home.

    This charge has nothing to do with the current status of the existing system – whether it is in good or “crumbling” condition.

    If repairs are required – the cost of those repairs will be passed on to all users in the rate fees and those fees will apply equally no matter whether you have been on the system for 10 years or one year.

    re: “but the continuous call that new users pay new costs rings false to me, and the leesburg situation tells why.”

    It’s not a “continuous call” RH – it’s a FACT.

    Check the web page.

    New hookups cost 12K.

    Check other counties websites and you’ll see a very similar cost for new hookups.

    They charge for new hookups because someone has to pay the costs to extend the pipes … widen the pipes for additional capacity and upgrade the plant to handle the increased flows.

    All of these things cost money.

    there is no connection to growth rate at all.

    whether you have a 1/2% growth rate or a 7% growth rate – it still costs on a per unit basis to extend and add capacity.

    If there is any connection at all it would be that most localities cannot physically expand their water/sewer fast enough to provide service at a 7% growth rate.

    there is no “virtual” water/sewer network that can handle an infinite number of connections ….

    these networks are just like electricity and road networks and schools.

    When you have population growth – the water to serve new homes has to come from somewhere.

    It does not just appear when needed.

    You cannot approve a subdivision if there is no water/sewer available at that location – and in Leesburg as well as many other localities the additional costs come to about 12K ….

    If you want a home – with water/sewer – you have to come up with the 12K to pay for the stuff that will be needed to serve you.

    And existing residents don’t get off for free – because water/sewer does not “appear” when needed.

    You have to go to the bond markets and borrow the money.

    When you borrow money – you use your available credit.

    At some point – you might have only enough credit to build a new water/sewer line or build a school – and you have to choose.

    And THAT is what stops or slows growth – it’s the fiscal stress that is put on a local government that would need to borrow the money to put in the infrastructure – and it cannot borrow the money to do so.

    If the developer wants to go to the bond markets and borrow the money up-front – then guess how they get their money back?

    from water/sewer connection fees….

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I thought I made it clear that I was making the assumption that most users out of town were newer than most users in town. How many intown hook-ups were made inthe last five years vs out of town hooK ups?

    Of the amount paid for service how much was allocated for maintenance?

    How much maintenance occurred in town where things are {presumably) older than out of town?

    If, as reported on the radio, the judge found that the cost of service was not that different, (and hence the reduction) where did all the EXTRA out of town money go, since they already paid for hookups?

    Probably towards maintenance and maybe een subsidies to in-town users!

    Even you said that if maintenance is a problem, no one is paying enough.

    RH

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I never said new folks should not contribute anything. I do think they are charged too much and this is a blatant attempt to keep them away. I do think there is a lot of charging new people too much, just as apparently was being done in Leesburg.

    Regardless, the judge said the cost difference between in and out was not justified.

    The fact that new hookups are the same price means nothing if most of them are out of town: they were still getting soaked.

    RH

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    When you borrow money – you use your available credit.

    And when you add residents youincrease your ability to pay, which increases credit.

    It isn’t a fixed amount. Despite building dozens of new schools, Loudoun had a AAA rating, last I knew.

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “If repairs are required – the cost of those repairs will be passed on to all users in the rate fees and those fees will apply equally no matter whether you have been on the system for 10 years or one year.”

    And you don’t think that is a problem? You pay for new infrastructure and a year later you get hit up for soeone elses old and unfunded repairs?

    You don’t think that some of that was pulled from the excess service chares to out of towners?

    I don’t know, but it sure looks fishy to me.

    RH

  17. Larry G Avatar

    the hook-up fee pays to allow you to hook-up to the system.

    It pays for the specific additional infrastructure that is required to serve your home.

    If… you hook-up to an existing system that is in disrepair then the reason why is not because they did not enough for hook-up fees but because they did not charge enough for monthly/quarterly rate fees.

    Leesburg's hookup fees are similar in cost to other providers of water&sewer and does not look excessive in comparison.

    Now if a system had really, really high hook-up fees and really-really low water rates and their system was in top-notch condition – you might have good reason to be suspicious.

    The folks that sued – were by some accounts well off – and financially able to sue – and if they thought the hook-up fees were outrageous why did they not sue to have them reversed also?

  18. Larry G Avatar

    I wanted to get back to what EMR was saying.

    The question is – WHERE should we put water/sewer because it is a necessary component of a functional settlement pattern ( I think ).

    Should, for instance, water/sewer be provided in places like Leesburg?

    How about Fredericksburg and Warrenton?

    Some of you may (or may not) be aware of two things that Kaine and the GA did….

    and I was disappointed that BR did not spend more time on these two since they are dead-on with regard to functional settlement patterns and more fair allocation of location costs.

    UDA – Urban Development Areas

    http://www.hb3202.virginia.gov/urbandevelopment.shtml

    UTSD – Urban Transportation Service Districts

    http://www.hb3202.virginia.gov/urbantransportationservice.shtml

    UDAs, in particular, seemed to be the law that could be renamed to be the “You will created Functional Settlement Patterns” – law….

    It would also respond, at least in part, to the property rights folks who say that localities are trying to stop growth.

    Here’s a request to Jim or EMR.

    Would you consider a blog post on these two measures and how they support (or not) more functional settlement patterns and a more fair allocation of location costs?

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I have no knowledge of this but I’d be willing to bet that if most recent hookups were outside of town then you would find that hook-up fees went up substantlly as the ratio of out of town hook-ups and in-town hook ups changed.

    That is just my guess, but if it is accurate then your claim that the fees are justified are incorrect.

    And remember, that is just to get permission to hook up. You still have to get your own contractor to actually do the work. For less miney you could dig your own septic and have no monthly fee, if the density (or lack of) would allow it.

    So this becomes an issue as to whether more urban areas are more expensive or less expwnsive to operate, environmentally speaking.

    Again, I’m not saying any of this happened in leesburg, only that the case is suggestive.

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    UDA’s will increase costs in urban areas and lower values in rural areas. They will be part subsidy and part wealth transfer. They won’t save any money but they will save some open space, at an enormous and unequal cost.

    And no, I’m not saying that because I want to subdivide.

    RH

  21. Larry G Avatar

    re: “That is just my guess, but if it is accurate then your claim that the fees are justified are incorrect.
    …..
    Again, I’m not saying any of this happened in leesburg, only that the case is suggestive.”

    yeah you are… you’re playing games here…speculating… without data …. to tilt towards your agenda…

    The Leesburg issue had nothing to do for charging for infrastructure – for water/sewer hookups…

    where have water/sewer hookup fees been challenged as “too expensive”?

    The issue in Leesburg had zilch to do with hookup fees and even the case mentioned was not about usage fees that were “too expensive” but rather some customers getting charged more than others.

    No on said that those who got the lower fees were paying too much or not enough -either.

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    to tilt towards your agenda…

    I have no agenda. I’m just trying to explain how it sounded as reported on the radio.

    The town was charging twice as much to those outside the town limits. The judge found no cost justification for the higher charges, and ordered a rollback. It sounded as if he would have ordered restitution for back overpayments as well but said he could not because of the way the law was written.

    That much was in the story.

    My speculation is that those outside the town limits are newer residents, and if this is true then this is a clear example of old residents sticking it to the new residents.

    In addition, my speculation is that some of the addtional amounts the new residents were paying went into the maintenance fund, and since they are (probably) on new sections of the system they were substantially paying costs that rightfully belonged to the older residents.

    They won’t need maintenance for may years because they just paid $11,000 to hook up to new infrastructure (according to your argument).

    The only thing that is really speculation here is whther most of the new residents are located outside of town. I’m guessing that is a good bet. If that is true then the rest of it follows logically.

    And Yes, if there is a new resident inside of town, he pays the same hookup fee as those outside of town. So what?

    This guy (if there are any) is paying for new expansion outside of town with his hookup fee, but then he is getting a lower monthly rate and maintenance paid for with higher fees from those outside of town.

    I agree the story had nothing to do with hook up fees, but I’d be willing to bet you would find a shrp increase in those fees at whatever point in time most of them began to occur outside of town.

    This makes sense because we have the evidence of overcharging on monthly fees, and it makes sense since the out of towners have no vote in town politics. (Maybe they elect the ser commission, but I’ll guess it is appointed.)

    ————————–

    “No on said that those who got the lower fees were paying too much or not enough -either.”

    Actually, the judge sort of did because under the new fee structure the town rates will go up and the out of town rates will go down.

    There are two issues here. The first issue is whether the fees collected are enough to operate and maintain the system. All of the fees might still be too low, collectively) and I think this is your point.

    The second issue is that some people were paying a lot more than others for essentially the same environmental services, and this is clearly wrong. It is a violation of the law that says no one should bear undue hardship due to the enactment, enforcement or lack of enforcement of any environmental law.

    Water and sewer services are provided for environmental reasons, and hook up is generally REQUIRED wherever water and sewer is available. Even if you have an existing well, it usually must be disables so you can’t even water your lawn without paying the sewer fee, which is based on water usage.

    So here is a case where you are required to buy certain services but some people are charged twice as much as others.

    This is stealing, and it is why the judge acted. It would be the same if you charged tire shops in town twice as much as county tire shops to dispose of old tires at the dump.

    OK, I guess I do have an agenda:
    Stealing is wrong.
    Stealing and trying to hide it with some nonsense about new infrastructure is not only wrong, it is also dishonest.

    Maybe some of the nonsense about new infrastrucure has some valid basis, I never claimed otherwise.

    All I said was that it looked to me like a situation ripe for abuse, and accounting that was inapporpriate and non-transparent, not to mention fraudulent.

    It appears to me that this case is an example that supports but does not prove my argument.

    Anyone besides Larry and Anonymous think I’m all wet here? I freely admit that some of this is conjecture, but it certainly seems plausible to me.

    RH

  23. Larry G Avatar

    re: "My speculation ….

    In addition, my speculation"

    upon which you build a house of cards to "prove" that there is "stealing" – as you define it – going on.

    Not buying it RH.

    Your deal from square one has been that you say that charging for water/sewer hookups is:

    1. – wrong to charge new people for infrastructure

    2. – it's way too expensive

    this case was not about hook-up fees at all.

    In fact, it could have been if the folks that sued wanted to include it in their complaint – and they did not.

    And the reason that they did not is because what Leesburg charges for water/sewer hookups is:

    1. – the same to both in town and out of town folks

    2. – within the range charged by most other jurisdictions…

    Verdict:

    Charging new people for water/sewer hookups is "NOT" stealing.

    Right?

    you must got caught in one of your tried and true rope-a-dope variations… where you slip sideways on issues… rather than staying true to the issue.

    repeat after me:

    "water&sewer hookups are not stealing"

    "water&sewer hookups are not stealing"

    "water&sewer hookups are not stealing"

    "water&sewer hookups are not stealing"

  24. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG

    I am not sure which urban creeks you think are clogged with raw sewage when it rains. My Dad used to say that I didn’t have the sense to come in out of the rain but I’ve proven him wrong in recent years. So, I rarely wander around in downpours looking at streams. I do sometimes go running after it rains and the trails are all by creeks (I guess the land is in a flood plain and even Fairfax County can’t agree to develop it so they use it for trails). I have never seen anything floating in the creek except some litter. Maybe somebody’s sewage treatment plant is discharging into Difficult Run but I’ve never seen it. As for me and my neighbors in Great Falls – it’s not us. Everybody is on septic. The only antidote to Gerry Connolly inspired over-development without adequate public facilities is the requirement that lots have sufficient percolation capacity for the homes on the lots. A good 3 acre lot might perc 5 bedrooms. Poor Fairfax County BoS – driving through Great Falls imagining endless townhomes without any of the improvements in transportation needed to accomodate the higher density. Then they remember – no sewers. No way to sell out to developers. Darn.

    Our motto:

    Percs stop jerks.

  25. Larry G Avatar

    Hey Groveton –

    I probably was not articulate enough…

    there are two distinct issues –

    1. storm water runoff – into creeks

    2. storm water runoff into storm water drains which are not separate from sewers.

    In other words those gutters you see in most curbs go into the sewer system.

    Okay – for point 1.

    You say that you don’t generate stormwater runoff.

    I’m not saying this is not true but do this test – the next time there is a good rain circle your property and find where the water drains to…

    and then follow it….

    until you get to a creek…

    now look at that creek…

    is it clear and sparkling like a glass of water or is it muddy and cloudy.. ??

    next – to find out where your creek ends up – get a topo map and follow it… to a major creek/river big enough to require a bridge over it.

    Go look at it there.

    In most urban areas – a good rain is bad news for creeks and rivers.

    you may not have much running off of your property (but don’t bet the house on it) …but that favorite restaurant… or shopping center parking lot is a different story.

    motor oil, anti-freeze, pet feces, just about anything you can think of sits on that parking lot….until it rains… and then it goes to one of two places…

    we’ve already talked about the first place.

    the second place is the storm drain…

    you may be surprised but most sewage treatment plants have storage facilities to hold the sewage until it can be processed.

    The storage is huge for most urban areas but it is no match for a one inch rain..in most cases…

    when you have a multiple inch rain.. many sewage treatment plant storage is overrun and guess where it goes?

    but don’t take my word.. go research it …

    how do I know this?

    well.. I read.. but I also paddle – 30 years.. and in that period of time – one gets to see a lot of rivers and creeks and what we dump into them.

    In West Va.. it’s cars and refrigerators …in Tysons .. it’s motor oil and pet feces….

    Now.. if you want to see what happens to a stream/creek/river that does not have civilization’s trademark – impervious surfaces – go to Shenandoah Park (or similar large plot of undeveloped land) and look at THOSE creeks and they will be clear and sparkling – even during rains (but they will muddy up also but the “mud” is real dirt not contaminates from impervious surfaces.

    No.. we cannot make urban stream pristine.. not even swimmable (which is he clean water standard) ..ESPECIALLY during storm events..

    but the question I was posing to EMR was.. IF a functional settlement pattern ..by and large.. is supposed to be more dense than Great Falls and your environs… in fact way more dense…

    and a direct consequence of “dense” is impervious surfaces and super nasty runoff…

    how can we imply that functional settlement patterns are environmentally friendly and sustainable… sitting “gently on the land” as they say?

    I would go for the jugular here in fact and lay down the gauntlet and challenge to be shown .. by EMR’s own opinion – the most functional settlement pattern that he knows of – and I bet it has super nasty runoff when it rains…

    or ..did I misunderstand you and you were saying that the rest of NoVa should be just as gentle on the land as where you live?

    😉

    p.s. I’m hurt that you did not give me one of the plum jobs and in fact have me up on charges…. ouch!

  26. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – do you ever test the water quality of your well or are you on public water?

  27. Groveton Avatar

    I guess that I can believe the fridges in WVa abd the oil and doggy doo in Tysons. But where would one find an overflow of a human sewage treatment facility? I will gross out my frinds and family to see this estuary of effulent.

    My water is checked once or twice a year. We have two wells. One about 30 Gal/Min, one runs at about 55Gal / Min. The samples are sent to Virginia Tech – as I recall. THey come back with a chemical analysis which say the water is good to dring.

  28. Larry G Avatar

    re: “But where would one find an overflow of a human sewage treatment facility?”

    well.. find your regional treatment plant to start with…

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/navbar/faqs/servicedistrict.htm#servdistrict15

    but in researching this..it appears that all of Fairfax Stormwater runs off into creeks and is not send to the sewage treatment facility.

    Excerpts:

    Are there state and federal laws that influence or control stormwater management in Fairfax County?
    Yes. The Water Quality Act of 1987 requires that municipal separate storm sewer systems

    NOTE hold OLD this law is and we still are not in compliance!

    Are these standards changing?
    Yes. As a result of learning more about how urban stormwater contributes to the pollution of the Chesapeake Bay and local streams, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is requiring localities to take significant additional steps to reduce the impacts of urban stormwater.

    which is going to be very expensive

    Isn’t stormwater already treated at our sewer plant?
    No. The stormwater runoff from parking lots, streets, roofs and yards flows directly into streams and ultimately to the Potomac River and the Chesapeake Bay. Unless there is a detention pond or other such facility, the trash, and oils that may be on these surfaces are washed directly into the streams and the bay.

    looks like I was wrong about some of the runoff going to your plant

    What is the condition of the stormwater system?
    Much of the county developed in the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s prior to any requirements for stormwater controls. There are approximately 250 miles of stormwater pipes that are more than 40 years old and valued at $180,000,000. The monetary value of the stormwater pipe system is $990,000,000. Until the penny was established in FY 06 there was not a significant or continuous reinvestment effort on these pipes. Many are reaching the end of their useful service life and some are in failure. Beginning in the mid 1970’s stormwater management facilities were required to be built as part of newly developed properties. The standards have changed and evolved over time. Most of these facilities do not have as long a life expectancy as plain pipe, and many require significant reinvestment in order to offer the level of service they were built to provide.

    What is the condition of our streams?
    The county has more than 900 miles of streams and based on physical and biological assessments, approximately 70 to 80 percent are in fair or very poor condition.

    Fairfax is on the leading edge of dealing with storm water as most places not only do not have stormwater tax districts – they are not going to do them either unless forced to by the EPA or DEQ.

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “upon which you build a house of cards to “prove” that there is “stealing” – as you define it – going on.

    Not buying it RH.”

    What is it you disagree with? My first contenetion is that there are more new homes on the outskirts of Leesburg than in Leesburg.

    Do you disagree with this?

    RH

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "water&sewer hookups are not stealing"

    I never said such a thing, don;t put words in my mouth.

    Water & sewer hookups are not stealing, but charging twice as much to one pwerson as another without reql cost justification is stealing, and that is what the judge said.

    RH

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    is it clear and sparkling like a glass of water or is it muddy and cloudy.. ??

    I’ve got creeks that begin on my property. They are surrounded by acres and acres of nothing but trees and grass. there is no urban runoff in them.

    They are muddy and cloudy after a rain.

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “THey come back with a chemical analysis which say the water is good to drink.”

    Really? I would bet they only check for bacteria and nitrates, disolved solids and pH. At most they might look for a couple of heavy metals like lead, cadmium, and manganese.

    Almost a sure bet they don’t any of the expensive tests for pesticides, etc.

    RH

  33. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    there are three main issues with urban runoff.

    One is the sudden rush of water itself. This cuases udden surges in wter flow in the creeks, leading to flooding and erosion, which adds substantially to the silt load.

    The second is silt and dirt in the runoff. This is essentially the same material as you might find running off my farm: dirt, leaf debris, wild animal feces, etc.

    The third is contaminants containded in the dirt load. Antifreeze, motor oil, pet feces, spilled soft drinks, and anything else that gets dropped on the ground. Plus trash like paper cups and cigarette butts.

    In addition, in the sewage stream you have all the biologicals: fertilizer, antibiotics, viagra, antidepressants, aspirin, and you name it, plus household cleaners, garbage disposal waste (containing growth hormones).

    The vast bulk of it is plain old water, plus whatever the water gouges out of the stream beds, same as on my farm. It is enough to fill up a good size pond in a few years.

    We can prevent the excess erosion by simply slowing the runoff to natural levels. That means either large lots, heavy plantings (preferably not lawn grass), or catchment basins.

    That leaves you with the problem of the actual contaminants, plus trash. Of these, fertlizer is the biggest problem, by far. And the biggest source of fertilizer isn’t even the urban areas: it is cattle and agricultural activities in Pennsylvania, probably followed by lawn fertilizer. When you see those office buildings with green grass all winter, it is massive loadings of fertilizer that do it.

    Larry does not believe this business about runoff pollution (for the Chesapeake) mainly originating in PA, but it is well established. This is not to say that our own sources don’t need to be controlled.

    Aside from the fertilizer, the rest of the contaminants are in the PPM to PPT levels. That still adds up to a lot of material because there are billions of gallons and tons of dirt involved.

    But, there is virtually no way to get it out. Even if you had separate waste streams as EMR proposes,it buys you nothing when it comes to treatment. It would take virtually infinite energy, and infinite resources, which would result in other kinds of pollution.

    In the end, the best treatment is biological, which means something eats it. Then it either breaks down, or it becomes a bioaccumulator. Unfortunately, the biggest and cheapest holding tank we have, with the most active biology —- is the Chesapeake Bay.

    Stand by for Larry explosion.

    RH

  34. Groveton Avatar

    RH:

    Are you on well water? If so, where / how do you have your water tested?

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I had it tested as required when I had a new well installed. i think that was only for Bacteria.

    Has not been tested since.

    1) I’m so far from anything that if I have a water problem, everyone has a problem. We don’t use fertilizer here.

    2) Probably should be tested for bacteria but the problem then is WHEN do you test? If it is good you won’t get any results from the test, and if it is bad the diarrhea will let you know before the test.

    3) No one but the gov’t can afford to run the complicated tests, for pesticides etc. Anyway, those tests are almost always positive, and I don’t think I want to know the answer, anyway.

    4) Lead, Copper, Iron, and Manganese are easy, and they are propabably included in your test.

    5) Hydrogen sulfide stinks to high heaven and it is a nuisance, but not dangerous so far as I know. It is pretty common in some areas. If you put a bottel in the refrigerator it will off-gas in a day so you can’t smell it. Otherwise I think they sell a kind of air bubbler for whole house use.

    It kind of isn’t worth it to clean all the water you use, just for the water you ingest. Unless you have a lot of iron or manganese which discolors your clothes etc.

    For thousands of years people who had bad water avoided the problem by making beer out of it.

    RH

  36. Groveton Avatar

    RH:

    Thanks for the info. I have a sediment filter that makes the water clear. I am told the sediment was harmless but it altered the taste of the water so I put in the filter.

    There is no farming anywhere near me. I don’t use pesticides to any significant extent (I’ll spay a shrub if the beetles are eating it alive). So, I am guessing that the pesticide issue is moot – although some of my neighbors are certified wing nuts who may be doing almost anything.

    Making beer out of bad water sounds good to me. Old Dominion uses water from Goose Creek.

  37. Larry G Avatar

    Actually I agree with much (but not all) of RH’s description of runoff.

    there are feces in the woods but for the most part “in the woods” in not the same as “on the pavement” and that’s one of the primary differences between urban and non-urban runoff.

    Farm fields are impervious surfaces also… unless they are deep in dense vegetation – and stay that way most of the time.

    What it boils down to is two things:

    1. – how intensely the land is used for things that drop stuff on it

    2. – what happens to the stuff that is on the surface after it drops there and it rains.

    This is not really rocket science because if you just think a bit about the process – you’ll get the answer.

    For instance, sparse amounts of animal feces in a heavily wooded environment is very different than a cattle feedlot and they are different from a townhous/apartment complex that barely 5% non-impervious surface.

    It all comes back to how intensely the land is used and what kind of vegetative conditions there are to “process” the stuff – assuming it is nature stuff that nature can break down as opposed to things like persistent pesticides and the like.

    re: “Larry does not believe this business about runoff pollution (for the Chesapeake) mainly originating in PA, but it is well established. This is not to say that our own sources don’t need to be controlled.”

    no I don’t until I see the data to back it up.

    A dairy farm in PA is he same as a dairy farm in the Shenandoah Valley.

    A home and septic in Latrobe no different than a home/septic in Great Falls.

    In terms of volume of runoff – about 1/2 of the Bay comes from the Susquehanna which drains much of Central and Eastern PA.

    In terms of settlement patterns, assuming it is ordinary type development (as opposed to something that processes persistent chemicals) it is, for the most part, how much of an area there is where runoff can be sequestered and slowly filter back through soil layers to the water table.

    You may have noticed that NEW development has quite substantial requirements these days… usually storm ponds (or underground tanks even) to basically hold the runoff and slowly filer it.

    The creation of storm water tax authorities is – for the most part – to go back and retrofit older areas that do not have the storm ponds.

    For instance, parking lots can be re-configured with porous pavement… runoff from roofs can be shunted to engineered swales – basically drainfields camouflaged to look like landscaping or natural features.

    In a very dense settlement pattern – office towers and pavement – places like NYC.. I don’t know what they are doing…to be honest.

    In newer dense development, they’re using huge understand storage tanks similar to what you’d see when a new service station is built.

    okay.. so the bottom, bottom line is this –

    the more intensely the land is used – the more stormwater measures will be required to deal with the runoff and usually this means more expensive.

    I’d be curious to know what is being required for Tysons… in terms of state-of-the-art stormwater…facilities…sometimes called Low Impact Development or LID.

  38. Larry G Avatar

    re: pesticides

    If the pesticides and other chemicals are persistent, it’s bad news.

    examples of persistent substances are mercury, pcbs, ddt, or hundreds of others – many often found in consumer-grade pesticides.

    The reason why persistent is not good is because it really does not matter how low the use concentration is – because – over time.. it does not disperse – it accumulates.

    It becomes embedded in the streambed and much like a paint that has spilled. it just flows downriver and into the Bay – and the only way it “goes away” is when it becomes part of the sediment and covered up by layers slowly over time.

    In the Kepone case (which was not homeowner use but a dumping) – it was decided that it would be safer to leave it alone and tell people not to eat the fish.

    On the Hudson River in NY, GE is being required to dredge to remove the PCBs it dumped over decades.

    In fact, if you look around, many of the Rivers in Va have “do not eat the fish” warnings on them also.

    Look Here:

    http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/Epidemiology/PublicHealthToxicology/Advisories/

    As far as knowing what is in the food you eat – California wanted to require tuna and other fish sold for food to disclose the amount of mercury in tuna since it’s impacts are well known and several studies have indicated wildly varying levels of mercury in tuna and what we get in the way of a warning is that “on average” this kind of tuna has this much mercury in it but for your specific can.. not known.

    California was squashed in it’s effort but other places in the world, including Europe are becoming much more strict about this.

    My personal view is that if we really want to be serious about stormwater runoff and sewage treatment in general – would be to require the food to be accurately labeled with regard to what chemicals their flesh has, in what concentrations and what the safe levels are – much like our nutrition labels.

    If you think about this – we fret about the fat content of a food we eat.. but not the pesticide content… weird…

    So.. once you know that those oysters and crabs have high levels of prescription hormones in them – people will demand that something be done about it.

    Soon – perhaps sooner than later – we’ll probably decide that having single-pipe sewer systems that contain black, gray and runoff-water is not a good thing and “functional settlement patterns” will take on a whole new meaning.

  39. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Gold accumulates over time too, but now we are talking about a geological process.

    I think what you are talking about is bioaccumulators. Ususally these are soluble in fats as opposed to water, and so they accumulate as they go up the food chain.

    That is different from a chemical that may also be persistent, but has no characteristics that make it accumulate.

    Then you have chemicals that are not persistent themselves, but break down into things that are.

    If you separate blackwater from stormwater, then you eliminate the problem of suddenly flushing tons of sewage into the water along with stormeater, and you reduce the cost of sewage treatment because you do not have to handle the incidental runoff.

    But that also means youare not treating the incidental runoff, for whatever good that might do.

    You are not going to treat the storm runoff in any case, so you gain nothing there. Even for normal sewage there are limits as to how much clean up you can do, short of reverse osmosis or distillation. There are just too many tons of waste to go looking for a gram of contaminant, especially if you have to look for a gram each of 30,000 contaminants.

    Bottom line is that you have to figure out what you can afford to get rid of, and what you can live with. then you hope those two aren;t so far apart you can;t bridge the gap.

    RH

  40. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “for the most part “in the woods” in not the same as “on the pavement”

    So natural feces are OK and pet feces are not?

    Next time a bird poops on your car, leave it there for a month and see how much paint you have left.

    When it comes to nitrogen and biological loading, they are both the same. Only difference is the wild variety does not conatin (as much) antibiotics and growth hormones.

    RH

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Farm fields are impervious surfaces also… “

    Well, you can’t win on this one. If you till and cultivate thenthe fields are not impervious, but they lose a lot more soil in the runoff that does occur.

    If you use no-till practices, then you need a lot of herbicides. There will be more water runoff, but it will take less soil with it – just more hebicides and fertilizer.

    So, when we talk about runoff we need to distinguish between the water that runs off and what it carries with it.

    The usual practice for hay land and pastures is to aerate the soil (which makes it pervious) and rake the pastures to break up the clumps of manure so they will break down sooner. whether the gass is tall or has recently been cut does not affect the run-off: that is a matter of the root structure and compaction of the soil.

    My stream beds are surrounded by woods, which means the root structure is large and not tightly bound. This makes the wooded portions of the streams more subject to erosion than the portions that run through grassy areas.

    Developed areas are only five percent of the land, so even if we spend massive amounts to get urban runooff to approximate the “natural state” we won’t have done much to control the overall silt load in our rivers, because the vast majority of it is uncontrolled.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “sparse amounts of animal feces in a heavily wooded environment ”

    You haven’t tried to walk around my place, there is tons of the stuff. But not anywhere near what it is for a feedlot. Fortunately, feed lots are rare.

    Acre per acre compared to a suburban setting, it probably isn’t any different in weight. it is mostly that in a suburban setting it is more visible. And, if it is impervious it flushes faster.

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “no I don’t until I see the data to back it up.

    A dairy farm in PA is he same as a dairy farm in the Shenandoah Valley.”

    I have showed this to you over and over. The Susquhanna provides the largest flow into the Chesapeake and it drains the largest area.

    A dairy in PA is propbably four times the size as one in Shenandoah and there are probably four times as many. The Susquehanna provides almost as much nitrogen as the other four major tributtaries – combined.

    You can believe whatever you want, but I don’t see the point.

    RH

  44. Larry G Avatar

    re: “So natural feces are OK and pet feces are not?”

    in the concentrations that occur in the environment that they break down in – over time – naturally

    yes….

    when you visit a wilderness area – there is poop all around you and even in the creeks but most living things… can drink that water without worrying about ingesting pesticides, kepone, ddt, or hormones from 10,000 chickens in a 1/4 acre or 5000 cattle in a feed lot.

    If our only problem was “normal” unadulterated poop – then just removing the solids and the pathogens would result in clean enough water for nature to finish the job…

    which is the way it has been since way, way, way before we have the problems that we have today.

    We know the problems.

    We know, for instance, that DDT will cause the eagles to go away.

    We know that other kinds of chemicals – that are harmful and persist in the form they are dumped or in other converted forms… will result in similar problems that the DDTs did….

    we always seem to guess wrong as to what is “safe” and what is not.

    we allow the release of the chemicals – until proven harmful – then we backtrack.. but you cannot undo a lot of the damage… DDT was an example of something that was stopped and helped as well as lead in gasoline but other things.. there is no easy recovery – as kepone, PCBs and Mercury have shown.

    We’ve made tremendous progress on industrial pollution but we underestimated the problems from sewage and stormwater runoff.

    I think we’ll have some success at these also but change will be required in order to go forward.

    Stormwater.. may ..end up being the easier of the problems to solve.

    I’m not sure how we keep stuff like hormones, anti-biotics and other prescription and non-prescription drugs out of the rivers and bay if our current sewage treatment protocols cannot remove them…

    ….unless of course we all will be fine with a sterile and barren Chesapeake Bay and what critters manage to survive are covered with sores and lesions…

    I think if ever person had to look at some of the fish that are coming out of the Shenandoah river and to see the terrible damage that is being wreaked on these poor critters that we’d act…

    Unfortunately critters don’t seem to have “property rights”.

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the more intensely the land is used – the more stormwater measures will be required to deal with the runoff and usually this means more expensive.”

    Agreed. Another reason excessively urban areas will be more expenseve to build and operate than some other configuration.

    Now, why would we demand runoff controls for urban areas that are more restrictive (in terms of results) than the natural condition?

    Runoff is NOT gpoing to percolate down through the groundwater: that’s crazy.

    Suppose you have some river that flows a million gallons an hour through the forest. Then you build a city there. You still want a million gallons an hour going through th river. You just don’t want it all to happen in one hour after a rainstorm.

    What is going to happen will be just like the silt fence and the sidewalks to nowhere: well meaning regulations will run amok and wind up wasting as much or more than as they save.

    Unless we are careful, and honest about what it is we are trying to achieve.

    RH

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Unfortunately critters don’t seem to have “property rights”.”

    That is because no one owns them. If they were owned and the ownership was clear, then they would be taken care of.

    And we woud also know what they are “worth”, so we would know how much to spend on them.

    RH

  47. Larry G Avatar

    re: “Now, why would we demand runoff controls for urban areas that are more restrictive (in terms of results) than the natural condition?”

    we don’t demand that. we accept compromise but the compromise is based on how much pollution that a water body can absorb without causing unsustainable damaged that renders it unhealthy, unsafe and unusable for living things…humans and critters alike.

  48. Larry G Avatar

    re: “Runoff is NOT gpoing to percolate down through the groundwater: that’s crazy. “

    really?

    how do you think a septic field works?

    or for that matter rain on a forest or a prairie?

    where do you think water in an aquifer comes from originally?

    RH – for a self-proclaimed “educated” environmental scientist.. I swear.. I do wonder.. at times.

  49. Larry G Avatar

    re: "Suppose you have some river that flows a million gallons an hour through the forest. Then you build a city there. You still want a million gallons an hour going through th river. You just don't want it all to happen in one hour after a rainstorm."

    In a perfect world, the volume as well as the purity of the river would not be different than before the city was built.

    For water QUANTITY (not quality), the word used in some stormwater circles is "pre-development hydrograph".

    If you go to
    http://waterdata.usgs.gov/va/nwis/uv/site_no=01664000&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060,62620,00062

    you'll see a chart showing the runoff volume characteristics for a river.

    This chart looks one way without mankind influence and it looks a different way with mankind influence.

    if you look at one of these charts on a river that has been damned you can actually see when the water releases occur (or not).

    But if you look at these charts on creeks and rivers around urban areas – you will see huge spikes during rain events whereas in a forest/prairie environment the cycles are shallower and spread out over time.

    this is just for runoff…

    but it's a double whammy ….

    if you only had impervious surfaces, you'd get the spikes but not the contamination….

    unfortunately.. man is not a tidy critter… his idea of "clean" is to put waste on the ground surface … which builds up in between storm events and then gets flushed into the stream when rain happens…

    it's really,really disheartening to see what happens to our creeks and rivers when it rains.

    I used to think that rains were cleansing events… that we get "fresh" breezes and all that rot… but now.. I'm old enough to know that in urban areas.. when it rains.. bad stuff is going on in many places….

    ..not all… there is hope… some places are now using porous pavement, rain gardens… and LID… and strives to get better and perhaps a little closer to that pre-development hydrograph.

    and RH.. it's not necessarily a total zero sum game… if we can sequester and convert … which if you think about it… is a natural thing also…as runoff in a forest is …sequestered… and sediments are filtered….

    we will have to develop similar processes for "civilization".

  50. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG:

    I am not an environmental scientist of any type but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night so here goes …

    Runoff does not percolate into the ground. That’s kind of the definition of runoff. When rain falls, some percolates into the ground. Some does not. The rain that does not percolate into the ground “runs off” into a creek or stream or river.

    Isn’t run-off, by definition, the water that does not percolate into the ground?

  51. Larry G Avatar

    well yes.. but it's sort of a "duh" concept….

    "runoff" is … I agree.. by definition… but it's used in context to indicate stuff that runs off that …would be better off soaking into the water table rather than running off…..

    your well… why do you have it tested?

    I bet.. because you realize that it's potentially affected by stuff that might percolate through the soil into it….

    but as said before.. the "runoff" problem in most urban areas is two-fold

    it's the volume of runoff – much higher than desirable combined with stuff in concentration…. that affects the water quality…

    For instance, let's say you had a pond on your property and right next to it you had a kennel with 100 dogs and some concrete floors that got hosed down every day.. and it flowed towards your pond… which was also near your well…

    so whether or not the runoff "percolates" or not… is sort of moot in a way because of the sheer volume of waste involved anyhow.

    Most urban areas – by the way -as I'm sure you are probably already aware – eventually end up polluting the groundwater beneath them… rendering existing well systems … no longer usable… for drinking water though many folks continue to use them for gardens and the like…

    so.. yes.. mea culpa.. I got carried away with the term "runoff" and "percolate" but I think what I'm saying pretty much holds….in terms of the bigger picture…

    by the way – I have the perfect solution for pollution of rivers…

    just make it a law that the intakes for fresh water must be downstream of your sewage outflows….and you no longer have to worry about urban areas cheating on their waste treatment plants…

    this is not as dumb as it sounds… the health department in Va usually decides where your well & septic will be located and not infrequently the well is "downstream" of the drainfield.

  52. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “how do you think a septic field works?”

    Well, it doesn’t work on runoff.

    Runoff, by definition, is what runs off. I have a field that is bone dry, and if I get a little sprinkle there will be no run off.

    But if it is already saturated, there will be hundred pecent run off.

    Anywhere in between, some water will percolate into the ground, but that isn’t run off.

    And you would never want all runoff to percolate into the ground because then the streams would go dry, except to the extent they were spring fed.

    The way you wrote it, it sounded like you thought all runoff should be percolated back into the ground.

    That would put a lot of septic fields out of commission.

    RH

  53. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “we accept compromise but the compromise is based on how much pollution that a water body can absorb without causing unsustainable damaged that renders it unhealthy, unsafe and unusable for living things…humans and critters alike.”

    In other words you accept a compromise that says you will spend whatever it takes to eliminate any trace of unhealthyness.

    I hope you have a lot of money.

    RH

  54. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Believe it or not, my environmental studies included not only environmental chemistry, analytical chemistry, organic and inorganic chemistry, analytical chemistry, quantum chemistry, chemical thermodynamics, and others. It also included geology, geological hazards, economic mineral deposits, oceanography, hydraulics, energy conservation, environmental economics and the usual raft of advanced math, physics, and thermodynamics needed to support the above.

    And a minor in business, including contract law, accounting, marketing of technology, and finance. Plus a couple of electives like Chinese history, history of music, and hsitory of science.

    Then I went to grad school.

    And I paid for it working in the printing and boatbuilding trades.

    I don’t know everything, but I think I know runoff doesn’t percolate through the ground.

    RH

  55. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “it’s the volume of runoff – much higher than desirable combined with stuff in concentration…. that affects the water quality…”

    Well, here is the problem: if you reduce the volume of runoff you will increase the concentration of undesireable stuff in what is left.

    The groundwater and the streams act like giant chromatographs. Compunds “stick” to the substrate and get “flushed” along at different rates, concentrating and dispersing at different places depending on soil characteristics and water flow.

    That is why you don’t want fat from your garbage disposal going in your septic system: it isn’t water soluble and it will plug up the drainage.

    ————————-

    “just make it a law that the intakes for fresh water must be downstream of your sewage outflows….”

    That was my father’s idea when he worked for the public health service (later to become EPA) fifty years ago. He was a wizard at statistics and science writing. He taught me how to recognize twisted statistics, bad argumentation, and writing that could not be backed up with numbers.

    He wrote government position papers to back up proposed regulations, and he knew that if he had his facts wrong, one side or the other would rip him to shreds. Among other things he was closely involved in Writing the Clean Water Act.

    As mayor of the town where we lived, he was responsible for having town water installed. (Who pays for new infrastructure when it is all for existing residents?)

    He also said that pollution is like scotch tape: you can’t throw it away, you just stick it someplace else.

    ——————————

    I think most places that have city water require you to disable your well. It is too easy to cheat, and they want to charge you the sewer charge for watering your grass or filling your pool. That is why you see trucks driving around delivering water—–a real environmental benefit thanks to screwed up regulations or billing systems.

    Otherwise you would put in city sewer first, let people keep their wells and not worry about the groundwater. Instead it goes the other way: you put in city water because the septic fields are too close to the wells, and leave the septic in place. Eventually you have too much density and the septic has to go. You put in city sewer and instead of waste eventually leaching to the streams, it goes down in one big rush at 7:30AM.

    But it still has to go somewhere.

  56. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “your well… why do you have it tested?”

    I don’t have it tested. The really bad stuff isn’t measured in the tests, and the other stuff is obvious.

    If you don’t have bacteria the test will come up negative, and if you do, then you will be sick before you get the test done.

  57. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “but it’s used in context to indicate stuff that runs off that …would be better off soaking into the water table rather than running off…..”

    Agreed, but it is used in that conetext so often and so glibly that people (who don;t know any better) start making the mistake you made.

    Next thing you know, they are policymakers or activists thinking that any runoff is bad.

    Look, I agree that the water running off the farm is probably cleaner than the water running off of any place in Fairfax the same size. It’s as close to p[ristine as yu can get, since it originates here, and I have no animals.

    I still would not drink it.

    And when there is a downpour there is still a rush of water leaving the farm, and it still erodes the streambeds. After 20 years, I can’t say the stream at my house in Fairfax has eroded any more than the streams here.

    I do know that it gets a much faster slug of water hitting it since the shppong center and other development happend up stream. I do knpw that in the bad old days my neighbors on the opposite side of the stream backfilled their lots, pushing the “flood plain” on to what later became my property.

    If I cared aobout it, I would be prohibited from backfilling under the new rules. So my floodplain helps prevent people downstream from me from flodding and it percolates more water – forever. But my neighbors have more valuable lots, – and always will have.

    I agree that runoff is a problem. But we will never control more than a little of it. And we have a lot of other problems. We can’t afford to throw ALL our money at this one, but to hear people tell it, this is a crisis that MUST BE FIXED.

    So, OK fine, now tell me which crisis you won’t fix (or you will fix less of) so you can spend more on this one.

    Just like any other budget.

    Oh, yeah, then explain to me how your plan provides environmental justice for all involved.

    And do it in a way my father would approve of.

    RH

  58. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “it’s really,really disheartening to see what happens to our creeks and rivers when it rains.”

    I know. When I first sailed in the Chesapeake I was apalled. It doesn’t even taste like water.

    ——————————–

    It is pretty much a zero sum game: you don’t get to sequester for free, or forever. That’s how we got Love Canal, and it is why we are not going to get Yucca Flats.

    That is why sequestering carbon in the forests won’t work. We are going to burn a hundred millon years worth of forests as coal, and we don’t have room for a hundred million years worth of forests. We would have to cut down the forest and bury it, then grow a new forest – a hundred million times.

    Fortunately, all of that is outside my event horizon.

    RH

  59. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "the health department in Va usually decides where your well & septic will be located and not infrequently the well is "downstream" of the drainfield."

    What a joke.

    When I put in a new well the health department came out. I thought there would be some kind of survey or analysis, but the guy asked wher ethe septic field was, looked around and said put the well here, put a stick in the ground. I forget what that cost me.

    Anyway, the well is 300 feet deep and the septic field is a few inches. Everything is downstream to the well. When he well comes on it lowers the water table around the well, in the shape of a cone. Then more water flows "downhill" to replace it.

    It's more complicated because some soil acts like a wick and some act like a dam. Most wells get contaminated from the surface, not being sealed properly. You don't have to go far from your septic field before the water is as clean as it is going to get.

    If you are really freaked out about it, you can get reverse osmosis, ion exchange resins, gas spargers, carbon filters, and ozone treatment, and get pretty clean water.

    Pretty expensive, and then you have to dispose of the carbon and ion exchange resins. Or, you can buy bottled water (ha ha ha).

    RH

  60. Larry G Avatar

    re: “In other words you accept a compromise that says you will spend whatever it takes to eliminate any trace of unhealthyness.”

    no…

    try this instead:

    ” … unsustainable damage that renders it unhealthy, unsafe and unusable for living things…humans and critters alike.”

    or this:

    http://www.epa.gov/OWOW/tmdl/

  61. Larry G Avatar

    re: “I don’t know everything, but I think I know runoff doesn’t percolate through the ground.”

    we are deep into semantics here.

    stormwater is by definition water that runs off more than is ideal usually because the surface is devoid of the natural vegetation that would normally slow it down and allow it to sink into the soil layers.

    some folks use the term “runoff” to indicate water than is better to be captured and returned to the water table than run off….

  62. Larry G Avatar

    I think we started out with the thread about sewage and functional settlement patterns

    .. and I allowed that much of what the environmental folks are concerned with – are twofold – the sewage treatment and the stormwater runoff…

    by the way – here is one definition of it:

    “stormwater runoff
    precipitation that does not infiltrate into the ground or evaporate due to impervious land surfaces but instead flows onto adjacent land or water areas and is routed into drain/sewer systems.”

    http://www.aquatechnologies.com/info_glossary.htm

    so the nomenclature exists and many who have learned about it will use the term “runoff” for short – to indicate the part that runs off that causes harm ..the part that we would like to see return to the soil layers – like happens when you do not have impervious surfaces.

    Before we suddenly realized the threat to waterways from things like prescription drugs and hormones, anti-biotics, etc, it has been presumed that we had the sewage treatment issue from dense settlement patterns – understood and known ways to treat it such that we did not damage the downstream waterways – at least to the extent that we had been doing in the past – and parts of the Potomac were so bad that it was obvious to anyone who ventured near it.

    I don’t know the age of the regulars here but there was a time when the Potomac downstream of the Blue Plains treatment plant was just loathsome….

    we fixed that.. or least we thought we did until we realized that these other chemicals are not removed with our current treatment processes.

    But about the time we delt successfully with sewage treatment, we started to recognize the harm that resulted from stormwater runoff – and the more we learned, the more it was found to be such a significant impact that it is on par with the harm that results from substances not removed in the sewage treatment process.

    Don’t take my word for it – go do some GOOGLE searches on the subject to include the concept of TMDLs – and what is known as point and non-point source pollution….

    You don’t need to get a lot of formal school education to learn these issues but I am very surprised that someone went to school to learn about the environment and apparently is not very familiar with the problem…. but I guess that happens in a lot of fields where there can be a gap between the formal training and ongoing issues that outpace the textbooks.

    One of the reasons why I am familiar with these things is that I have tried very hard to understood what “green” actually means and more than anything else, it means, at least to me, that one really strives to understand what the actual threats are – and ultimately what one’s own personal actions ought to be to be part of the solution.

    And that is why I read – a lot – and that is why I contribute financially to groups that advocate changes…. including changes to so-called “property rights” if those rights result in polluting lands and waters beyond the boundaries of a particular property owner.

    Be that as it may – all of us who say that we support – more functional settlement patterns – we need to recognize that there is a paradox – that the word “functional” does not equate to “Green” even though there is usually a heavy hint of more efficient, less consumptive use of resources … and more hinting about “sustainability”.

    We talk about the bad impacts… of people living “sparse” on large lots but most folks who live on larger lots – they know that if those lots have trees or heavy vegetation on them that during heavy rain events that while there is runoff it is not of the stormwater variety… that we see where the land has been cleared and covered with impervious surfaces…..and now is the concern of many scientists and others in trying to figure out how we can have dense settlement patterns – believed to be “better for the environment” and …actually fulfill that promise.

    In my mind – until we confront this issue and deal with it successfully – I don’t see the clear benefit of “functional” settlement patterns if they have such serious downsides also.

    How can any of us …advocate.. settlement patterns …that under our current paradigms …result in terrible impacts to waterways… the same waterways that we say are essential to our wellbeing on a longer term sustainable basis?

  63. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Let’s fix the semantics. All I’m saying is that we don’t want to promote the idea that more infiltration is always better, and that all runoff is bad.

    “Surface runoff is the water flow which occurs when soil is infiltrated to full capacity and excess water, from rain, snowmelt, or other sources flows over the land. This is a major component of the hydrologic cycle.”

    “That portion of precipitation or irrigation on an area which does not infiltrate, but instead is discharged from the area.”

    By that definition, Excess Runoff would be that cuased by impervious surfaces, but more and more we see call to prevent runoff from vegetated areas as well.

    I still see this confusion in your statement:

    “to indicate the part that runs off that causes harm ..the part that we would like to see return to the soil layers – like happens when you do not have impervious surfaces.”

    It still sounds like we mean all runoff when what re really mean is Excess Runoff – that part which is above the naturally occurring amount. And even THAT assumes that the naturally occurring amount isn’t naturally degrading the streams: think Yellow River, which got named for the color of the loess that fills it.

    We could reduce urban runoff to it’s previous “natural” level and still have more contaminants present. But, even if we install a bunch of excess catch basins and reduce runoff below that natural amount, two things will happen:

    1) the catch basins will become contaminated.
    2) Stream flow will be reduced.

    And the streams will still be contaminated.

    Reducing urban runoff is a worthwhile goal, but like anything else environmental, we need to be realistic about exactly HOW worthwhile. Otherwise we wind up cutting off our environmental nose to save our environmental face.

    RH

  64. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I don’t know the age of the regulars here but there was a time when the Potomac downstream of the Blue Plains treatment plant was just loathsome….”

    I can remember that. Loathsome isn’t a strong enough word.

    —————————–

    “these other chemicals are not removed with our current treatment processes.”

    And they are not going to be unless you have more money than God. the basic problem is this: when you are working at the part per trillion level, you have to look at a trillion molecules to find the one you are looking for. The energy budget alone will kill you.

    To think you will remove trace chemicals is far beyond unrealistic. The only way to get at this is to ban the chemicals to begin with. But people who depend on them to live, or even just get by are going to object: not to mention the manufacturors.

    ——————————

    I know about TMDL’s: I used to do the analyses. I still think the TMDL concept applies to Tyson’s, and a lot of other places and processes. TMDL basically says there is only so much you can cram into one place and time.

    ——————————–

    I know exactly what the problem is, and I’m telling you that it probably cannot be fixed. That is a hard concept to swallow, but just think about it.

    A third or more of all the chemicals in runoff come fromthe air, and they fall equally on urban land and not.
    Even if we control runoff from urban land we have done nothing about the other 95%.

    Even if you had absolute control over urban runoff and you could somehow treat it to get a 15% reducton, that would be a home run, and it would hardly make a dent in the problem.

    And you would still have to treat the wastewater whihis where most of the problem is.

    Basically what you are talking about is somehow cleaning half of the environment just so it won’t track dirt into the other half. It just isn’t feasible.

    —————————–
    My situation is that I spent four years learning the technology of the environment at the most basic levels: chemistry, biology, and energy. Nothing at the macro level can ever change those basic rules.

    Then I spent eight years in the business, and saw first hand how screwed up, avaricious, and unrealistic it is.

    During that time I got my masters degree in Systems Engineering and began to understand how the micro rules apply in complicated systems, and how the costs (resources and energy) get allocated.

    Finally I realized that those costs are part and parcel of the economy. Whatever they are and wherever they fall, we will pay the costs.

    We can pay it in health costs, pollution cleanup, or conservation costs (doing without). The only truly green path is to try to minimize the sum of those costs. Anything es=lse is going to cost more in one resource or another – which we pay for AND which has a negative impact on the environment.

    —————————

    The reason I do not contribute to various groups is that 1) Maintaining the farm sucks up all my money – I’ve done my contributing at the office, thank you.
    2)I believe such groups contribute to a single-problem single action view of the world which is counterproductive tofinding real answers. they are more interested in expanding their mebership and their budget than they are in heling me.
    3)I don’t think most of them have any idea what they are doing. they mean well but their Pollyanna views do as much harm as good: All we need is, All we need is, All we need is, All we need is……

    Until it adds up to everything. And every time they say “All we need is” they are making a new claim to property rights.

    —————————-

    “including changes to so-called “property rights” if those rights result in polluting lands and waters beyond the boundaries of a particular property owner.”

    Property rights have nothing to do with land boundaries, for the most part. What they have to do with is contracts of all types, social and otherwise.

    Today, french workers are holding a SONY executive hostage because they got lower deverance packages than other SONY workers. They are going to be laid off either way, so they figure they might as well be in jail for kidnapping as well. Just or not, they feel they had some kind of contract with SONY management that demands they be treated equitably.

    Changes in property rights, so called or not without compensation is stealing, and my observation is that these groups are very confused about what is justified, and what isn’t. Their stand on property rights is designed to hide the costs – which we will all bear one way or another.

    I may be a trained and educated envriomental scientist and practitioner, but I refuse to be an unethical one. Not only that, but I believe that eventually the current mode of operations will come back to haunt them and result in less conservation efforts, not more. Eco-terrorism is one example that is hurting the movement already, and these are people that clearly don’t care about property rights.

    What I know and have not been able to convince you is that your position on property rights as stated above is self defeating circular logic to begin with, and even if not it misses the point entirely.

    There simply is no way to claim, let alone enforce the idea that your property posseses some attribute that every other property is not allowed equally. Unless, of course, you buy it.

    ————————

    “to understand what the actual threats are – and ultimately what one’s own personal actions ought to be to be part of the solution.”

    Don’t have any children, and then die young.

    Whatever “the solution” is will be wahtever we let happen, and we will pay the costs of that, according to our standing in the economy, among other things. some of the costs we will pay will be independent of the economy: asthma for example.

    You will pay anyway,for whatever we have or don’t have in terms of the environment. If you want to volunteer more than that, knock yurself out. Just don’t count on making much difference: these things have away of averaging out.

    RH

    ——————————

  65. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “In my mind – until we confront this issue and deal with it successfully – I don’t see the clear benefit of “functional” settlement patterns if they have such serious downsides also.

    How can any of us …advocate.. settlement patterns …that under our current paradigms …result in terrible impacts to waterways… the same waterways that we say are essential to our wellbeing on a longer term sustainable basis?”

    This is where we agree. Only I agrfree more so. EVERY process and location has a kind of TMDL. Mass transit has one and auto transit has one. What we want is to maximize the combination of the two at the lowest combined cost.

    Wash, rinse, repeat for every system and place in our society. When you finally reach the total system minimum cost / max benefit, then something magic happens.

    You don’t have to worry about incursions against “your property”, because any change that isn’t agreed to will make both parties worse off.

    EMR thinks this can be achieve by allocating full costs locationally, but he is wrong: there is more to it than that.

    We cannot let the market supply prices for everything until we allocate ownership of everything. if that happens no trades will be made that are not “fair” or agreed to by both sides.

    Environmentalists generally can’t stand that because it would mean a clean environment is property that has to be paid for. Claims for universal ownership or divine right are just claims for excess and unpaid for property rights.

    Since the market cannot express values for these things, yet, the best we can do is to protect ourselves by demanding that any claims for non market goods or proerty be held to the highest ethical standards of fairness and equality.

    Ase Abe lincoln pointed out, without that all we have is anarchy. You can look at any example of that to see wht it means for the environment.

    Those French workers are pretty close to anarchy, but so ar the CEO’s that thought they could treat workers unfairly.

    RH

  66. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Probable Carcinogens Found in Baby Toiletries
    Health advocacy group says more than half the products analyzed were found to contain trace amounts of chemicals believed to cause cancer.”

    I could have told you that forty years ago. What we have now is a far better ability to find those traces. If you are worried about arcinogens, then don’t read article like this.

    Don’t ask questions that you don’t want to know the answers to.

    What do these tests tell us? The tell us the amount of some chemicals in some products.

    It tells us nothing about the relationship between using these products and the eventual development of cancer, but the report plays on (probably irrational) fears. it will probably result in a request for more money – “property rights”.

    Maybe it is on the list of things we should worry about. I jsut wonder where on the list and what is the priority, and how is the priority set.

    RH

  67. Larry G Avatar

    in terms of not doing too much “capturing” of runoff….

    how would you do this?

    you can only go the other way which is to prevent the normal cycle of soaking in…

    reservoirs don’t keep normal runoff from happening either… because eventually the runoff reaches the reservoir which then overfills the amount of runoff it gets and sends it downstream.

    The only time a reservoir “captures” runoff is when it is first built or after a long drought.

    Otherwise … the problem you have is that for every place you remove trees and vegetation and replace it with impervious surface – you keep the water from soaking in like it would normally.. and essentially create a block to soaking in.

    think about this…

    how would you INCREASE the infiltration?

    who would do it if you could?

    and you would not want infiltration anyhow even if you could do it if it was direct from a contaminated impervious surface – you’d put more water into the aquifer but you’d contaminate it also.

    the only way that aquifer recharge “works” properly in CLEAN water…not polluted.

    Otherwise – everyone who is on a well would be drinking contaminated water…

  68. Larry G Avatar

    to the extent that a landowner who defines his holding with boundaries thinks that by owning that land he has the right to discharge pollutants – he does not have that right at all.

    He can discharge SOME pollutants in the concentrations that are permitted.

    He cannot discharge any pollutant much less in any concentration.

    Putting an impervious surface on your property and then parking vehicles on it – makes you responsible for the pollutants that get there.

    That’s how and why the law – clearly and legally states that you cannot build a parking lot without also having to build a storm pond to hold the runoff.

    and yes.. the law is going to change once more to require TREATED storm ponds if the runoff from it is shown to be polluted to exceed the specified levels allowed.

    this is not unethical at all.

    What would be unethical would be to allow streams to be polluted such that they harm other property owners from enjoying and using water that the state has set standards on for quality.

    No individual landowner nor a group of landowners decide what is or is not a pollutant nor what concentrations are allowed or not.

    That is determined by the Government which represents ALL landowners including the ones who do not want air and water polluted too much.

    Who decides too much?

    I can tell you it’s not the guys who want to pollute.

    Your rationale seems to be that it is unethical to stop someone from polluting ….. using their own criteria for what and how much…

  69. Larry G Avatar

    re: “French workers are pretty close to anarchy”

    this is where you totally go off the deep end.

    you and others cannot riot because you do not get your way ESPECIALLY if many, many others do not agree with you..

    It’s called a Democracy…

    and yes – you can get outvoted … but name a better system…

    Do you essentially want a King or a Dictator who happens to agree with you and not the majority?

  70. Larry G Avatar

    re: “This is where we agree. Only I agrfree more so. EVERY process and location has a kind of TMDL. Mass transit has one and auto transit has one. What we want is to maximize the combination of the two at the lowest combined cost.”

    the “cost” includes MORE than short term money.. it includes long term money.. like rivers so polluted that they cannot be cleaned up without such an enormous amount of money that it becomes impractical.

    and again.. your idea of what “balance” is – is not the way the process works…

    we get all landowners together – and we elected a Government and then the Government holds hearings and elections – and from that we make decisions..

    you don’t have to agree.

    you don’t have to like it.

    but it is the way our system works.

    and it is VERY ethical because ethical means that you take into account everyone’s needs not just the minority needs.

  71. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the only way that aquifer recharge “works” properly in CLEAN water…not polluted.

    Otherwise – everyone who is on a well would be drinking contaminated water…”

    Now you are catching on. everyone is drinking dirty water, now it s a question of how dirty.

    We can prevent Excess runoff by building more catchment basins, but there is no point in building too many. Preenting excess runoff only solves part of the problem we have – maybe.

    RH

  72. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Your idea of balance is that you get to make the rules.

    That is not the way it works, and in fact it is against the law.

    You get the same opportunity to make your opinion known as the polluters. The decision maker is required, under law, to ensure that no party or entitiy bears an undue burden.

    You think that because the other side is a “polluter” that no burden is undue, and therefor your rights areunlimited.

    RH

    RH

  73. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “and again.. your idea of what “balance” is “

    My idea of balance has nothing to do with it. These are not my ideas.

    If the TMD is too high the stream will get continually more polluted, and that has a cost.

    If the TMD is set too low, then not as many people can use it, and that has a cost.

    We cannot demand to clean up the stream because the cost of pollution is “too high” and not consider the costs of not using the stream enough.

    It is making an unsubstantiated property claim in the first place (cost of pollution is “too high”) and ignoring another property claim in the second place (It’s my stream too and you are putting me out of work.)

    It is unfair and unethical, and it makes no sense, environmentally or economically.

    If the job density in Tysons is too high the transportation system will get more polluted and that has a cost. If we spread out the jobs and get more sprawl, that has a cost too, but maybe it results in less cost for runoff control.

    How else do you balance things without assigning a dollar value and working from there?

    RH

  74. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “He can discharge SOME pollutants in the concentrations that are permitted.”

    And his neighbor has no right to complain about that.

    Now we have a social contract. the neighbor ALSO has no right to demand further reductions (for his benefit, or for the social benefit) without compensation (he must be willing to pay more if he wants more).

    Furthermore, by permitting ANY discharge, the neighbor is implicitly conceding that a situation of NO DISCHARGE is not possible or desirable.

    RH

  75. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Balance is when you don;t spend more to save one life than you will spend to save another. otherwise you are claiming that your life is worth more than mine, and this si the sort of thing that leads to violence.

    Like the French workers. You can’t lay one off (kill one) for a lower price than another. Or at least that is the way THEY see it.

    Like I said, none of this is my idea. It is commonly held and commonly practiced theory for everyone except rabid environmentalists willing to steal or destroy other people’s property.

    RH

  76. Larry G Avatar

    re: “Now you are catching on. everyone is drinking dirty water, now it s a question of how dirty.”

    probably depends on one’s definition of “dirty” but let’s say that water that you can drink that does not harm your health is a good start.

    And certainly.. there still exists relatively pure spring water sold in bottles even.

    and again… the definition of “dirty” or “clean enough” is not your idea – it’s what society as a whole through representative government deems acceptable.

  77. Larry G Avatar

    re: “The decision maker is required, under law, to ensure that no party or entitiy bears an undue burden.”

    RH – who do you think appointed the decision-maker?

    don’t you think – at the end of the day – that decision-maker is more than likely the result of elected government appointing him/her?

  78. Larry G Avatar

    re: “It is unfair and unethical, and it makes no sense, environmentally or economically.
    ….

    How else do you balance things without assigning a dollar value and working from there?”

    the dollar cost does determine what is done but the “cost” can change as we find out more and if we find out that the real cost is much higher than we originally believed – then we adjust accordingly.

    For instance, we did not use to require storm ponds – and now we do – and storm ponds are not cheap.

  79. Larry G Avatar

    re: “”He can discharge SOME pollutants in the concentrations that are permitted.”

    And his neighbor has no right to complain about that.”

    His neighbor RH along with the other neighbors decide what is or his not acceptable through representative government.

    “Now we have a social contract. the neighbor ALSO has no right to demand further reductions (for his benefit, or for the social benefit) without compensation (he must be willing to pay more if he wants more).”

    no. we already know that one needs a permit – and that that permit is not permanent. It is for a set period of time and it is revokeable – and that is how a majority of landowners through representative government want it.

    “Furthermore, by permitting ANY discharge, the neighbor is implicitly conceding that a situation of NO DISCHARGE is not possible or desirable.”

    not true. that why permits are not forever …

    if we decide that PCBs are no longer permitted – we revoke the permits…and there is no compensation… you lose your permit….

    you MAY be allowed to continue until your permit expires but after that – you cannot obtain a new one…

    right?

  80. Larry G Avatar

    re: “Like I said, none of this is my idea. It is commonly held and commonly practiced theory for everyone except rabid environmentalists willing to steal or destroy other people’s property.”

    as far as I know.. it is the way the law currently works.

    ” Balance is when you don;t spend more to save one life than you will spend to save another. otherwise you are claiming that your life is worth more than mine, and this si the sort of thing that leads to violence.”

    Balance is when a majority of people elect a government to determine what “balance” is and if you disagree with the decision in a violent manner – off to jail you go.

    You are allowed a vote.

    You can disagree even strongly and vociferously …

    but if you resort to violence – then we cart you off…

    if you lived in a dictatorship or had a KING.. you would not even have a vote.. and disagreeing even politely would get you carted off to jail.

    Face it guy… you just do not agree with the way our system “works” with regard to owning property and having a right to pollute…

    I said some time ago – that property owners do not have an inherent right to pollute – no matter their reasons or rationale.

    Don’t you agree that that is the way the law works currently – even if you are totally opposed to it?

    All I’m trying to elicit from you is an agreement about what the current reality is – even if you are strongly opposed to it.

  81. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Push to Reduce Greenhouse Gases Would Put a Price on Emitting Pollution”

    Today’s WaPo.

    The reality is that NOTHING can happen without causing some kind of pollution.

    Pollution has a cost

    And Pollution has a value.

    If we beleive that the environment belongs to all of us then each of us has a stake in the value of pollution and each of us has an obligation in the cost of pollution.

    No one is ENTITLED to have more of one and less of the other, which is what your position implies.

    The current reality is that as a matter of written policy, the government has stated that it has no business creating policy that does NOT have a positive net social value. (GAO)

    The current reality is that environmentla justice is written into the law. It says that no person or entitiy should bear an undue burden due to the enactment, enforcement, or lack of enforcement of any environmental legislation.

    You cannot enact a new regulaton that will cause someone undue burden. (Unless you are willing to compensate him t remove the burden).

    The current reality is that this is the law. not only that, but this is the greenest path, the most economic path, and it actually makes sense.

    It is also the current reality that various groups try to run roughshod over these laws or bend them to their own devices. These peopole are neither economically smart nor environmentally friendly.

    What they are is greedy and avaricious at best, and thieves at worst.

    RH

  82. Larry G Avatar

    “No one is ENTITLED to have more of one and less of the other, which is what your position implies.”

    My position is the law as currently written and enforced.

    “The current reality is that as a matter of written policy, the government has stated that it has no business creating policy that does NOT have a positive net social value. (GAO)”

    The government says a lot of things – usually in a context – of which if you cherry-pick it out of that context it will actually end up sounding contradictory to other stated policies.

    “The current reality is that environmentla justice is written into the law. It says that no person or entitiy should bear an undue burden due to the enactment, enforcement, or lack of enforcement of any environmental legislation.”

    I think you keep confusing the “environmental justice” part of the NEPA law that was written to keep chemical plants and other noxious industry from being approved to be built in minority neighborhoods.

    Unless you can show me specific words with a reference that is different.. I’m going to assume this is just another one of your own beliefs that you base on something that cannot be verified.

    “You cannot enact a new regulaton that will cause someone undue burden. (Unless you are willing to compensate him t remove the burden).”

    of course the phrase “undue burden” is defined and interpreted by who?

    do you think it is interpreted by the person who thinks someone has put an “undue burden” on him as opposed to the Government deciding even if that guy vociferously disagrees?

    “The current reality is that this is the law. not only that, but this is the greenest path, the most economic path, and it actually makes sense.”

    the law in effect right now does not do the things that you want to believe it does.

    the law in effect right now says that you cannot pollute without a permit no matter whether you think that denial of that permit is an “undue burden” or that denial discriminates against minorities.

    that’s the truth.

    “It is also the current reality that various groups try to run roughshod over these laws or bend them to their own devices. These peopole are neither economically smart nor environmentally friendly.”

    Indeed. I call them polluters.

    “What they are is greedy and avaricious at best, and thieves at worst.”

    Yup… we agree..

    they keep trying…but the law is the law.. property owners did not have the right to pollute – period.

  83. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I said some time ago – that property owners do not have an inherent right to pollute – no matter their reasons or rationale.

    Don’t you agree that that is the way the law works currently “

    No, it is not the way the law works, and it cannot possibly work that way.

    Some people would have us believe that is the way it works because that is the way they think they would like to see it.

    Some times it even appears to work that way, if we shut someone down completely for example. But the danger is that this idea of killing the polluters has spread to other endeavors.

    So now, if I own a pine forest, I have to fear for the day a spotted owl may show up on my property, because on that day everyone who loves spotted owls (even if it includes myself) owns my forest.

    I have lost all right to “pollute” the habitat of the spotted owl by cutting my trees. And no one is going to ay me not to pollute. They get what they want (property rights) for nothing.

    As a result I may defend myself by cutting my trees before the owl shows up.

    This is a solution that is neither green nor economic, and causes us all to lose out.

    But it is something that we can easily put a price on. The value of my tract of timber is $50,000 today and it is $75,000 in eight years when the timber is mature.

    It is in no one’s interest to cut the trees now, least of all the owl, but I may have no choice but to cut it absent proper protection of my property at the same level as the owl lover’s “property”.

    So my rate of return on my forest is 4.1%, and what needs to happen is that starting eight years from now I get paid the equivalent of that to leave the forest standing.

    In other words the rent for birds is $3100 a year. If the majority (everyone who likes birds and wants to “own the habitat”) doesn’t think that is worth it, that’s OK, but they don’t have the right to make it my problem.

    At that point they are enforcing their property rights over and above mine. No one has the right to do that, by your own argument. And just because they are a majority, they still don’t have the right.

    But this is exactly where the faulty idea of “no right to pollute” has led us, and it is a perfect example of bad policy leading us down a bad path no one really wants to take.

    By itself, the ESA was a nice concept, but it had really lousy implementation that cost envirnmentalists a lot of erswhile friends.

    And, just to be even handed about it, the tree owner doesn’t have the right to sit there and demand $50,000 in rent just to jack the price up. There is no reasonable basis for it.

    But the best answer means both sides have to give up something. like anything else, if youlet one side get waht they want for free, then they will take and use too much.

    RH

  84. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the law in effect right now does not do the things that you want to believe it does.”

    That is because people like you insist it is OK to break the law.

    This hasnpt got anyting to do with what I believe, but it has to do with how the law is supposed to work.

    You don’t disagree that the law says what it does, just that it does what it says.

    You are perfectly happy to make it appear that there is no right to pollute, even when there is no possibility of doing otherwise. To me, that is an insane position it flies in the face of physical reality, of anything that is remotely possible.

    It implies that we have the right to make someone stop polluting. Now, we just took eerything away from Bernie Madoff – except his toilet. Even him, we cannot stop from polluting.

    But if you want to insist he has no rights, you would almost be correct.

    RH

  85. Larry G Avatar

    re: “You are perfectly happy to make it appear that there is no right to pollute, even when there is no possibility of doing otherwise. To me, that is an insane position it flies in the face of physical reality, of anything that is remotely possible.”

    I don’t make it appear that way. It’s the law.

    You have to get a permit. The permit specifically tells you what you can do and not do.

    That’s the law – RH and I support that law and I support punishing those who do not obey that law.

    The law does not say that you cannot pollute no matter what.

    The law says that if you are going to pollute you cannot do so without a permit.

  86. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “if you cherry-pick it out of that context it will actually end up sounding contradictory to other stated policies.”

    Go read the GAO page and then tell me it is out of context. It is all about balancing costs and benefits.

    —————————-

    “of course the phrase “undue burden” is defined and interpreted by who?”

    The government decides, but the very purpose of this law is to constrain the government from acting solely by majority interests. I never said I get to decide. Neither does the majority.

    Undue doesn’t say anything about how much, it just means equal. We have equal rights to a clean environment and equal responsibilities to pay for it.

    That does not mean the government cannot act badly, and the history of EPA enforcement shows marked swings depending on which party is in power. That is why you should not have the same organism making the rules and making the compensation.

    I agree we need a better way to define and interpret what is undue burden. The best way is to allow and protect property ownership and let the owners work what is fair (what is not an undue burden) through trade. But any way you do it boils down to assessing actual costs, not assuming majority powers.

    One of the problems with Eminent domain: the same judges issue the decree and then set the compensation.

    There is no opportunity to appeal to a jury of your peers, and even if you win, you win at your own expense. By itself, that would seem to be an undue burden, but eminent domain law is not environmental law. if environmental law worked under the same rules as eminent domain it would probablybe an improvement over the present situation.

    It seems pretty clear to me that when the law says no undue burden it means the application of the law must be fair, not fair by majority but fair as in no undue burden: equal rights to a clean environment and equal obligation to pay for it. You and other environmentalistswithoutethics are unwilling to accept the oblgation side of this.

    Right now the law of takings says that no taking has occurred unless almost all the property value is gone. I’d suggest that is an undue burden. It means the majority can take almost all your property without recompense. And you don’t even have to be a polluter. You claim no one has the right to step outside their property to damage yours: but this is exactly what each person in the majority is doing to you in this case.

    This is basically anarchy and it is exactly waht Abe Lincoln said we would have if property is not fully protected under the law.

    So, A) we have one law that says everyone has the same right to enjoy (and pay for) environmental protection.

    b) We have one law that says any time we take something for public use it must be paid for.

    C) We have public policy that says everything we do, policy we make law we pass should provide a net public benefit: something the public can use. Otherwise there is no point in doing it.

    D)We have court rulings that recognize the bundle of sticks concept of property: that property is separable.

    The logical conclustion is that whenthe government does something for th epublic good that damages one of someone’s sticks then it should be paid for.

    But then we have one law E) that says your property has not been taken unless they take almost all of your bundle of sticks.

    And we have people like you who think it is OK to launch a preemptive strike against your neighbor so that he can’t do anything to hurt any of your bundle of sticks.

    Regardless of the value of this claim or how much the burden is this HAS to be a claim in violation of A). Regardless of the quantity of more, it is still a demand for unequal and therefore it must be an undue protection.

    It is as if I took your moey and credit cards and then gave you your wallet back, saying, “I didn’t hurt you, you still have the use of your wallet.”

    What is it you don’t get about fair and equal being measurable quantities? What is it that you have against fair and equal that continuously brings you back around to the crazy idea that we have equal rights but you have more than I?

    RH

  87. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The law says that if you are going to pollute you cannot do so without a permit.”

    The law says we have equal rights to get that permit. The law says I don;t have to pay more for permit rights than you do.

    And once I have the permit there is nothing more you can do until the next round of negotiations. (providing I don;t violate the permit.)

    Having granted me that permit e have a social contract. That contract can be changed but not without compensation – one way or the other. If my permit to pollute was increased, you would expect me to pay more. If my permit is decreased and you get more of what you want, you should expect to pay for it.

    Otherwise, youare claiming that the previous permit was “not fair”. That it was causing you “undue burden”.

    After it was freely entered into. After you already agreed as to what was fair.

    Now the usual way we go about this is crate a new rule and not enforce it for a number of years: it is like giving out coupons to settle a class action case.

    RH

  88. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “but if you resort to violence – then we cart you off… “

    Eco terrorists beliee that violence and attacks on propertyare not only OK, they think such acts are defensible, becuase they are fighting for a higher moral imperative.

    They disdain property rights at the same time they claim more rights than others.

    This is essentallythe same as your argument and your argument is just as morally bankrupt, and just as prone to lead to anarchy.

    RH

  89. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The law says that if you are going to pollute you cannot do so without a permit.”

    Not true,there are (still) plenty of unregulated emissions.

    Anyway it makes no difference to my argument.

    The government says you cannot pollute wiothout a permit.

    The government says everyone has the same right to get a permit (and in fact the government may auction permits off, as if they sere (gasp) property.

    The government can never give out zero permits.

    So everyone has an equal right to pollute.

    Not a zero right, and not an infinite right, but the same right as anyone else.

    RH

  90. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    President Obama’s endorsement of climate legislation to clamp down on greenhouse gases has set off a lobbying rush in Congress and made the air thick with rival proposals.

    This Story
    “Push to Reduce Greenhouse Gases Would Put a Price on Emitting Pollution

    Coal companies, utilities, economists and environmentalists are vying to shape legislation that could rechannel hundreds of billions of dollars from one part of the economy to others.”

    And none of them are looking for the best answer. Each of them is looking to gain an edvantage for themselves or “their side”.

    They all want property rights guaranteed by the government that the other side doesn’t get.

    The stupidity of it is enough to make an educated man cry.

    RH

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