The Transportation Debate and the Unreported Land Use Revolution

If you need a reminder of how the debate over transportation funding is totally detached from the real world, read the op-ed piece by Del. Clay Athey, R-Front Royal, in the Times-Dispatch today to re-establish a connection with things happening beyond the cognition of most state politicians and the reporters who cover them. Athey, as you may recall, was the main author of the oft-forgotten land use provisions of the infamous HB 3202 known primarily for Abuser Fees and unconstitutional regional transportation authorities.

The land use provisions of the bill seem to be holding up better than the road-funding pieces, even if their impact has yet to be fully felt. The legislation called for the creation of Urban Development Areas that would steer growth in fast-growth counties into districts where jurisdictions were prepared to concentrate their investments in roads and infrastructure — and allowed localities to assess impact fees to help pay for it.

Local governments are still in the process of putting the law into effect. Yet this process is largely invisible to the public because the Mainstream Media refuses to cover it.

This massive blind spot in media coverage amounts to journalistic malpractice. Not only is the most important local-governance reform of the past 50 years going unreported, the media is skewing coverage of the transportation funding debate, unwittingly providing cover for Gov. Timothy M. Kaine who has called a special legislative session in the hopes of raising $1.1 billion a year in new taxes. Political reporters are uncritically regurgitating claims that Virginia is running out of state money to build secondary roads and depicting Republicans as anti-tax Neanderthals without providing the critical perspective that, oh, by the way, the financing and administration of transportation at the level of local government just happens to be going through the most dramatic, friggin’ changes in the past half century!

In case you’ve forgotten the coverage that Bacon’s Rebellion provided a year ago, here is a refresher from Athey of what is going on:

[Sixty-seven fast-growth] localities now have the authority to set road impact fees on by-right development outside of designated Urban Development Areas. This change helps pay for transportation improvements resulting from new by-right development, encouraging localities to focus growth and address mobility needs as development occurs. …

[A] second land-use provision in HB 3202 gives large urban counties flexibility to assume responsibility for maintenance of their local roads within an “Urban Transportation Service District.” By ending the separation of land-use decision-making from the responsibility for road maintenance, this change is a crucial first step toward devolution of state responsibility for secondary roads that serve only a local function to the governments whose land-use decisions result in congestion.

To encourage localities to provide this service, those counties — in addition to receiving state payments — would be authorized to assess full impact fees to help pay for additional public facilities like roads, public safety, and schools.

Got that? An alternative financing mechanism to pay for building secondary roads already exists. One of the reasons that General Assembly Republicans are adverse to new taxes is that HB 3202 significantly has already increased the ability of local governments to raise funds through impact fees. The refusal to pile on new taxes before the impact of last year’s legislation is understood does not make the Republicans anti-tax Neanderthals.

Athey and Del. Robert G. Marshal, R-Loudoun, authored legislation that will conduct a two-year study to monitor the transition to Urban Development Areas, determine if additional legislation is needed to help localities as they make that transition, and evaluate all existing land use planning tools and infrastructure financing options. Of course, these facts are unknown to the public because the Mainstream Media has not deemed it worthy of coverage — if, indeed, these facts have even entered the consciousness of Virginia’s editors and reporters.

If Virginia’s newsroom executives had any conscience, they would quit their jobs in shame, retire to monasteries, flagellate themselves with whips, and beg a merciful God for forgiveness.

I confess: I, too, was guilty of overlooking this side of this story, at least momentarily. Bacon’s Rebellion reported the Urban Development Area (UDA) story extensively a year ago, but we’ve let it drop since we lost our sponsorship funding. Since then, unable to report the news ourselves, we have have fallen into the habit of relying upon the reporting of others. Thus, I criticized Republicans last week for offering no alternative to Gov. Kaine’s tax plan. (See “Beyond ‘Just Say No to Taxes.‘”)

But I now recant. While I do not think that the messy business of land use reform is anywhere near complete, UDAs and their associated impact fees will have a huge impact on land use and transportation. We should wait and what kind of job they do before adding another load of taxes to the mix.


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  1. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Pretty good narrative Jim.

    I especially like this part: ..”dramatic, friggin’ changes”

    but wasn’t Kaine ALSO a person who was calling for changes in the way that Virginia did land-use/transportation…just to be fair?

    and Kaine’s plan is taking a hit from some quarters because it does not help “RoVa” (except in the sense that by keeping the maintenance costs from “raiding” the construction money -it is somewhat preserved.)

    and geeze.. the media, the RTD DID get the story out or at least certainly provided a media path for the issue.

    and let’s be honest – why isn’t the Republican Party in Va saying in it’s position paper what Del. Athey is saying …. ALONG with agreement that something must be done about the maintenance funding issue?

    One more thing… the local governments that I’ve been listening to are NOT HAPPY with these “reforms”.

    They say it ties their hands in making decisions and that the State is “abdicating” it’s responsibility to do roads.

    Which I find .. RICH.. because the “tying our hands” part is code for “making sweetheart deals with developers is going to be a lot harder than it used to be”.

    and the State “abdication” slam is code for “holy butkus… we’re actually going to have to use the auto taxes we collect – for transportation”.

    all said and done.. I’m not willing to give the Republican a “bye” for their unappreciated “good works” in 3202 for two reasons:

    1. all this pious talk about land-use reforms does not square with their caving in to developers on proffers.

    2. “good works”, like good intentions is not the same as addressing the issues – like maintenance funding…

    They need to put something on the table to go along with their taking credit for 3202…

    3202 will not fund maintenance and 3202 will not build the mega projects in NoVa and HR/TW that even the Republicans agree are needed if we are to invest in and preserve those economic engines that benefit the entire state.

  2. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Larry, my intention is not to try to give the Rs credit — it’s clear that a lot of Rs aren’t on the same page as Athey, Marshall and Howell, indeed, I suspect that may not even understand the issues that Athey writes about in his op-ed piece. My point is to shame the Mainstream Media into providing critical context in the debate over transportation funding.

    It may be possible to argue that the impact fees envisioned in HB 3202 are not sufficient to solve Virginia’s transportation needs. In theory, the Rs may be entirely wrong — additional taxes may be needed. Fine, let’s hear the pros and cons of that argument. Let’s get all the relevant facts out on the table.

    But we aren’t hearing the debate as it should be debated, and we aren’t getting the germane facts out on the table, because the MSM is stuck in the old “transportation-and-taxes” narrative with the usual stock of stereotypical characters, including troglodyte, anti-tax Republicans. The troglodyte image may be a fair characterization of some, but it most certainly is not a fair characterization of Rs like Athey, Marshall, Cuccinelli or even Howell.

    Likewise, Gov. Kaine’s position on transportation is a lot more nuanced than the tax-and-spend position that has been conferred upon him. He has done more than any governor before him to link land use and transportation, even if he seems to have dropped the ball in the last year.)

  3. Here’s something we can all agree on: Virginia media are worthless. Mainstream media were late to the game even on the abuser fee portion of 3202 — it became a big issue online long before the media noticed.

    Athey says: “Road impact fees also discourage large-lot residential growth in rural areas on agriculturally zoned land by making developers pay for the impact of increased traffic.”

    Translation: Impose taxes on developers that raise the cost of housing so that local officials can take this money and construct gigantic new monuments to themselves (I’m looking at you, Fairfax County Taj Mahal).

    “…determine if additional legislation is needed to help localities combat sprawl.”

    That’s what this all boils down to. Reshape the state to fit not what the owners of land want, but what I want it to look like. This is the “It takes a village” mentality. No thanks.

    Allowing a free people to build upon the land they own is not the cause of congestion. The cause is not building roads. Roads aren’t being built not because the state and local governmnets lack money from road users, but because the local and state officials prefer to spend this money elsewhere.

    What’s the best one-stop place to look for more info on this land use idea?

  4. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Bob, you seem to have an endless appetite for this material — otherwise I would not recommend this background reading. But here’s what I wrote back in 2006 to explain the logic behind HB 3202.

    Seventy-Five Years
    Virginia’s system for building and maintaining roads has changed little in three quarters of a century. Some people think it needs more money. Others think it needs an overhaul.

    The Devolution Solution
    Any meaningful transportation reform would make fast-growth counties responsible for their secondary roads. The trick is coaxing them into going along.

    Focused Growth
    To tame scattered development and the ills it creates, Frederick County concentrates growth in an Urban Development Area. The idea works so well that House Republicans want to take it statewide.

    We also did some reporting after HB 3202 was passed and local governments began figuring out what it all meant. You can read those articles in our “Road to Ruin” archives.

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Mr. Bacon,

    I applaud your attention to the land use provisions of HB 3202. Many have said that those changes are the most significant land use provisions enacted by the state since the early 1970s when Virginia mandated local governments adopt comprehensive plans and subdivision ordinances (but NOT zoning).

    Some clarifications:

    First, it was Governor Kaine who added the road impact fees to HB 3202 in his amendments to the bill.

    Second, the Urban Transportation Service District provisions expire in December 2009; the broad impact fees that can be levied outside the district apply ONLY to agriculturally zoned land being developed ‘by-right’; (thanks to HBAV for both of those) and Chesterfield County was authorized to impose road impact fees ONLY outside of the UTSD.

    Finally, most counties currently include Urban Development Areas in their comprehensive plans without being required to do so by the state; they just call them ‘growth areas’ or something similar. What is different is that HB 3202 MANDATES a residential density of 4 dwelling units per acre. That seems pretty harmless, but some counties are finding that the mandated density it running up against state/federal regulations concerning impervious surfaces and nutrient reduction in sewage treatment plants. Hopefully, that is one of the things that the Athey/Vogle subcommittee will reconcile.

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: 4 units per acre

    Yup.

    Counties like Spotsylvania call their own version a Primary Settlement District and it roughly defines where they intend to provide water and sewer and other expensive infrastructure and services (and not without some knock down/drag outs about expanding it at times)…

    but they have more/better control of what goes there by minimizing by-right units per acre to give them negotiating leverage for rezones and proffers.

    For instance, if a parcel abuts a road that is slated for widening in the comp plan, they will work to preserve the future r/w and/or require intra-parcel connections to minimize curb cuts.

    Spotsy, through some hard lessons with development, is specifically leery that once they might designate a UDA that the state could then change the requirements and/or pull back the road incentives and they were proven correct when the GA gives serious consideration to doing away with proffers and replacing them with a one-size-fits-all impact fee schedule.

    3202 was/is a major step in the right direction in my view – i.e. incentivizing development and development areas but local governments are rightly circumspect ……

  7. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    All this is fun and Hon. Athey is to be commended for trying to make things better, but:

    As we will point out in Monday’s column, the last thing Virginia needs, the last thing Virgina and Virginia jurisdictions can afford and the last thing any Agency, Enterprise or Instituion — much less the vast majority of Households has the energy or resources for is to build an land outside the Clear Edges of urbanized areas.

    New development must be REdevelopment to create Balance.

    EMR

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The republicans certainly deserve credit for the land-use aspects of HB3202. However it is important to remember that it was the Governor who (i) expanded the UDA requirements from several localities (those in Richmond, NoVA and Winchester areas with 15% grwoth rate and 20K pop) to the 67 localities that Athey mentions,(ii) expanded the road impact fee authority from the 9 or so localities that had the authority to the same 67 required to establish UDAs and (iii) made significant changes to the road impact fee statute that makes it usable for local governments – incorporating national standards.

    Jim – I would also point out that while impact fees can help finance local road improvements they cannot be used to construct improvements that were needed prior to the new development. For example if a highway has a volume to capacity ratio of 1 – essentially a level of service F – and the new development’s impact would increase the volume to capacity ratio from 1 to 1.2 then the impact fees can only be used to reduce the volume to capacity ratio back to 1 but not below 1. (this is a simplified explanation) So there would still be congestion in places where congestion exists today. Impact fees can only be part of the solution.

    People should not forget about the other land use reforms – TDRs, clustering, traffic impact analysis, access management, subdivision streets, etc.

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    EMR – Save Fairfax; Pave the Piedmont.

    There is no reason why residents of Fairfax County should suffer even more degradation of their quality of life and higher and higher taxes just to preserve open space and a bucholic lifestyle for points to the west.

    Any development needs infrastructure. Fairfax County’s is grossly over-stretched today. Create an urban area in Warrenton. That would be less expensive than trying to do the same in Fairfax County.

    Enough is enough.

    TMT

  10. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Anonymous 7:31 p.m., you were obviously closer to the legislative process than I was, therefore I will accept your account of the Governor’s role in modifying the original bill. When you add up all the contributions to land use that Gov. Kaine has made over his term, it is a pretty impressive list of accomplishments, and I probably have not given him the credit he deserves. I appreciate your feedback, and I will try to convey a more nuanced picture in the future.

    I’m still very disappointed, though, by the governor’s proposals for financing transportation improvements in the future, which will serve to perpetuate Business As Usual. There’s just no way around it — the tax mix he proposes represents a step backwards. But, hey, two steps forward, one step backwards, that’s still progress, right?

    I guess it is… unless you buy into Ed Risse’s argument that we’re running out of time to get it right. Incremental progress may not save us from the reckoning to come.

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The big test for Kaine will be Fairfax County’s 527 study for traffic at Tysons Corner. Anyone who has been following Tysons closely would certainly expect that the mega-densities being sought by the landowners would generate so much traffic that it would crush Tysons Corner and everywhere nearby. Thus, any valid 527 study will be bad news for the Tysons Corner landowners.

    However, many expect that Fairfax County will try to develop a study that would try to fluff the issue. Will Kaine attempt to distort VDOT’s review of the traffic study to permit windfalls for many landowners who contributed heavily to his campaign? Or will he insist on doing the right thing by having VDOT demonstrate that the huge increases in density cannot be sustained by any existing or affordably constructed roads? This will be the test of Kaine’s true commitment to changing the status quo.

    TMT

  12. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: …”impact fees can help finance local road improvements they cannot be used to construct improvements”

    agree. but if combined with good local planning and local match – roads can be rehabilitated.

    Further, a county does have the right to designate in it’s comp plans and capital facilities budget the intent to widen/improve a designated road at some point in the future.

    And if it has, in place, LOSS – level of services standards – it could be not easy for a developer to precisely mitigate his impacts because if a road is already LOS F, then you cannot “fix” that kind of problem usually with minor improvements.

    Once roads reach LOS F, the “fix” is not per development mitigation.

    There is no way to add a development and just mitigate your share if that mitigation does not substantially alter the LOS F condition.

    And if it is a rezone, the locality does have the right to deny the rezone and cite traffic as the reason.

    and this goes back to the UDAs command&control density which could be interpreted to be a “by right” regardless of traffic impacts.

    What the state is offering – is not a commitment to “fix” the LOS F condition of a given road but instead to give extra overall funding in exchange for the UDA.

    To designate an area with already overloaded roads as a UDA would be a driving disaster for citizens and a fiscal disaster for the county.

    I would suspect that most counties with careful government would not agree to density policies that would allow further degradation of existing roads …without recourse.

    If the county has a plan in place for improving/upgrading the road and the cost for doing it exceeds the developers fair share then the county has to decide where the money is going to come from to do the improvements – at the time the decision for the development is made.

    With water/sewer, the county will, if they have the fiscal resources, go ahead and build the improvement and then bill back the developer and in the future recover their up-front.

    This “works” because the county has control over the when, where, how, etc… control they could lose with a UDA.

    In order for UDA’s to work, the State would have to have a revolving infrastructure fund for localities to tap when they designated a UDA – and developers showed up with proposals or the rules for CDAs and SSDs would be different for UDAs.

    Because – in the end – the UDA is, in fact, a formalized service district and the funding for the infrastructure has to come from somewhere.

  13. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Clay Athey … this guy is a “poster child” for what’s wrong with the General Assembly.

    Where to start?

    Remember the abuser fees?

    Did Del. Athey vote for abuser fees? Yep.

    Did Del. Athey have the chance to personally benefit from those abuser fees? It looks that way. He’s a lawyer in a local law firm. From what I can see, his firm does civil and criminal defense work (among other things) so I guess the more people litigate anything the better Del. Athey does.

    Did Del. Athey continue to support the abuser fees after they proved to be unpopular? Of course not. He flip-flopped.

    Did Del. Athey do the right thing and admit his mistake? Of course not. Here is what he told the Washington Post:

    “I think clearly the overwhelming majority of delegates and senators never meant or expected it would apply to these lesser charges,” said Del. C.L. “Clay” Athey Jr. (R-Warren). “There was obviously a drafting error.”.

    The dog ate my homework!

    Now the lawyer who votes “yes” on misdrafted (in his view) legislation wants to be on the lead of more complex, more important legislation.

    Just say no to incompetence in the GA.

    Let’s take a look at Del. Athey’s guest column (referenced in Jim’s post):

    “Encouraging greater local responsibility for transportation improvements and maintenance will allow government closest to the people to make better decisions for their residents.”.

    I am glad to hear Del. Athey’s support for drastically limiting Virginia’s absurd love affair with the Dillon Rule.

    “With the Comprehensive Transportation Funding and Reform Act of 2007, Republicans unveiled the broadest land-use reforms in Virginia since the introduction of zoning. House Bill 3202 included two significant components that brought the transportation paradigm into alignment with reasonable growth measures.”.

    “Those same localities now have the authority to set road impact fees on by-right development outside of designated Urban Development Areas.”.

    “The second land-use provision in HB 3202 gives large urban counties flexibility to assume responsibility for maintenance of their local roads within an “Urban Transportation Service District.” By ending the separation of land-use decision-making from the responsibility for road maintenance, this change is a crucial first step toward devolution of state responsibility for secondary roads that serve only a local function to the governments whose land-use decisions result in congestion.”.

    I see. HB3202 is a huge success thanks to Republicans like Del. Athey. The local governments have everything they need to fix the problem. All is well thanks to the supermen and superwomen of the Virginia Republican Party.

    But wait …

    “BECAUSE these two reforms represent a fundamental shift in Virginia’s land-use and transportation relationship, I introduced HJ 178, establishing a legislative study of development and land-use tools. This two-year study will monitor the effectiveness of existing incentives to channel development into Urban Development Areas, and determine if additional legislation is needed to help localities combat sprawl. Additionally, the study will focus on whether Virginia’s current proffer system should be gradually replaced with a full impact-fee system to further discourage large-lot residential development in rural areas. By ensuring stability in the homebuilding industry and promoting new urbanism, Republicans believe our goal of having more than 1 million acres across Virginia dedicated to open space and parkland is achievable.”.

    Ready, fire, aim?

    Here’s some text from HJ 178:

    “The joint subcommittee shall also make a comprehensive evaluation of all existing land use planning tools and infrastructure financing options and make any recommendations deemed appropriate”.

    Let me see if I understand Del. Athey’s approach:

    1. Vote for ill-conceived legislation like abuser fees.
    2. When the legislation you supported turns out to be unpopular blame “drafting problems” even though you are a practicing lawyer.
    3. Vote for land use reforms in HB3202.
    4. Write a guest column touting your brilliance and the brilliance of your fellow Republicans in supporting this truly magnificent piece of legislation. Cite the fact that you have fixed land use issues by remanding them to local government.
    5. Introduce legislation to see if the EXISTING land use tools and infrastructure financing options are viable.

    Jim – you constantly talk about the local governments having what they need to solve the twin problems of transportation and land use. I just don’t see it. The local governments could definitely do more than they are doing. But some are trying. I believe that Loudoun County already charges $30,000 proffers per house built – so some are doing their part.

    Yet until the GA changes its bumbling ways I see that group as an obstacle to any progress in Virginia. In addition, when you hoard authority through the Dillon Rule you must also accept the majority of responsibility for outcomes. Del. Athey’s actions contribute to the bumbling of the GA and his unwillingness to give up any real power while blaming others contributes to the lack of credibility from which the GA suffers. In particular, his flip-flopping on important legislation like the abuser fees renders anything he says or writes inconsequential.

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – If you think the local elected officials, including those in Fairfax County, truly want to get rid of the Dillon Rule, you are also inhaling. If there was no Dillon Rule, Gerry Connolly and his crowd would not have the ability to grant developers whatever they want and blame Richmond for the traffic mess.

    The Dillon Rule is the key protection for NoVA politicians. Without it, they’d be naked as a jaybird.

    Moreover, the BoS’s of this state have much more power than they are willing to use. They could in many instances both reject upzoning requests and even down-zone in key cases. I’ve been told this by senators and delegates from both political parties.

    Judge Dillon is NOT the problem; Gerry Connolly is. But he was handily reelected last fall. Fairfax County residents were overwhelmingly happy with the status quo — either that or they just vote by party label.

    There are many things wrong with the General Assembly, but the Dillon Rule isn’t one of them. The problem lies with the fools in Fairfax County who won’t hold their local officials accountable.

    TMT

  15. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, perhaps there is a legislature somewhere in the world that undertakes major reforms and gets everything so exactly right that there’s no need to follow up or make mid-course adjustments. I don’t know of one, but you must: Your opinion of Virginia’s General Assembly is so astoundingly low that you must be comparing it to a legislature that does it better. Could you please reveal what collection of human beings yo are thinking of. Please remember, even the Founding Fathers who wrote the United States Constitution had to amend it with a Bill of Rights.

    Personally, I find it reassuring that Athey is not so persuaded of his omniscience that he thinks he can author complex legislation, turn it loose on Virginia, then never worry how it is working out. Tracking and monitoring the results of legislation is something the General Assembly should be doing more often.

  16. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “The Dillon Rule is the key protection for NoVA politicians. Without it, they’d be naked as a jaybird.”.

    Exactly. That’s why it needs to be recinded. I don’t think the NoVA politicians want to recind Dillon’s Rule. I think the citizens of NoVA should want that. In order to get that done – it can only be done by state legislators. Which means that the pressure needs to be kept on these state-wide politicians. The local-yokels in NoVA can’t recind Dillon’s Rule – whether they want to recind it or not. But state legislators like Del. Athey could push for reducing Dillon’s Rule. He says, “Encouraging greater local responsibility for transportation improvements and maintenance will allow government closest to the people to make better decisions for their residents.”.

    I don’t get it. If he really feels this way he should be pushing for a constitutional amendment to do just that. Del. Athey should push the GA to do what 45 other states have already done – cut back on Dillon’s Rule and institute some form of home rule for the localities.

    If that happened, the local politicians would lose their cover. And they’d have to stand up to the problems in the localities rather than engaging in a “finger pointing match with the GA”.

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The responsibility for repeal or relaxation of the Dillon Rule lies with the local officials who have not pushed for it.

    What if Gerry Connolly made an announcement that he would not implement any local taxes or fees for transportation unless the enabling legislation also included authority for an adequate public facilities ordinance?

    We need action from Gerry Connolly before we ask anything from Del. Athey.

    Fairfax County’s biggest problems are home-grown.

    TMT

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    If Dillon were the problem – then NoVa would be substantially different from Southern Maryland “home ruled” jurisdictions.

    And Dillon has some protections. The idea behind Dillon is what kept unelected transportation authorities from essentially taxing citizens who would have had little recourse to limit or stop it.

    To be fair, Virginia is but one of 4 states that has the State DOT responsible for building and maintaining local roads.

    and I agree with TMT – for years and years, local elected have insisted that their land-use decisions were separate and distinct from transportation decisions and they used that as an excuse/reassurance to citizens that VDOT is responsible …no matter how massive the land-use intensity… which is really, dumb.. but what is even dumber is for citizens to buy that concept.

    VDOT will not have any more money for local roads – than what it collects in tax revenues from that locality unless one wants to believe in the State “fiscal tooth fairy” where increased transportation monies “appear” without taxation.

    so.. while the localities fall over over themselves to show how grateful they are for development, they tax the bejesus out of local citizens for the cars they own – and then turn around and not only not spend that money on local roads but then say that the State is “abdicating” their road funding responsibilities.

    I had one State elected representative who admitted that Dillon has issues but he pointed out that without Dillon, localities would have a virtually unfettered ability to decide what to tax and how much to tax.

    like I said. .. if NoVa was substantially different from Home Rule localities , I might be more persuaded…..

    At this point, I see the GA, as Groveton does – a bit of a loose cannon … dangerously incompetent sometimes

    The fallout from 3202 is just beginning, I predict and this two year GA proffer study is more than likely going to substantially alter it – and the folks who do this are… the same guys who did the abuser fees except now they have the “help” of the development community. Oh JOY!

    but I see local government .. that is allied with the same pro-growth forces as foxes in the chicken-house.

    and they run amok.. until citizens do what they did in Loudoun…

    but because Loudoun is transient in nature…. the cycle will repeat…

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “New development must be REdevelopment to create Balance.’

    Nonsense. One has nothing to do with the other.

    RH

  20. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim:

    I’ll send you a list of superior government organizations in a later post. For now, let me addres the Bill of Rights comment. The Bill of Rights was hardly an absent – minded omission from the original Constitution. The question of a Bill of Rights raged as the original Constitution was written. Some founding fathers (Hamilton, for example) felt that a bill of rights was unnecessary since no rights had been surrendered in the original Constitution. Others (Jefferson) felt that an explicit bill of rights was a critical part of the Constitution.

    The Constitution was sent to the states for ratification. A number of states (New Hampshire, Virginia and New York for example) sent suggested amendments with their ratification documents. North Carolina (showing an early sign of political courage and excellence) refused to ratify the Constitution until more progress was made on a bill of rights. George Mason (author of Virginia’s Declaration of Rights and a Farifax County boy) refused to sign the proposed Constitution in protest to the lack of a Bill of Rights. Jefferson, a RoVA resident serving as Ambassador to France at the time, wrote, “Half a loaf is better than no bread. If we cannot secure all our rights, let us secure what we can.”.

    Jefferson prevailed and the original Constitution was ratified without a bill of rights.

    The 1st United States Congress met with the question of a bill of rights hanging over its head. There was enough angst that there was talk of another constitutional convention and a second constitution.

    At this point Madison flip-flopped on his original stance. He had first argued against the need for a bill of rights. Now, he saw a bill of rights as a better alternative to holding a new constitutional convention. So, on June 8, 1789 Madison made a pre-emptive proposal to send a set of amendments to the states for ratification. Virginia (no surprise) was the last to ratify the Bill of Rights.

    In this “lesson from history” a centralized government listened to local government and changed the governance sructure they had just established in response. This entire process, conducted through written messages delivered on horseback, required just over four years. It would have been quicker still if Vermont and Virginia hadn’t required almost 18 months longer than the rest of the states to ratify.

    Comparing today’s Virginia General Assembly to the founding fathers is a pretty absurd proposition. The founding fathers got more done in just over four years than the Virginia General Assembly has gotten done in its entire history.

  21. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “I had one State elected representative who admitted that Dillon has issues but he pointed out that without Dillon, localities would have a virtually unfettered ability to decide what to tax and how much to tax.”.

    I think you should vote for whoever runs aginst this guy.

    Restructuring the Dillon Rule is not a binary decision. It can be reduced in strength without being eliminated. The extent of the reduction depends on the wording that would have to be added, deleted or modified in the Virginia Constitution.

    There is no “with Dillon” or “without Dillon”. Therefore, there is no “unfettered decision as to what to tax and how much to tax.”. There is only a state legislature whose members make absurd statements.

    As for NoVA vs. Southern Maryland – I am lost. Why compare an urbanizing area to a largely rural area? Why not compare NoVA to another city and its suburbs in a state that has “watered down” Dillon’s Rule?

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the creation of Urban Development Areas that would steer growth in fast-growth counties into districts where jurisdictions were prepared to concentrate their investments in roads and infrastructure”

    This means that growth and wealth building will be concentrated in those districts. It means that the government is conserving its resources in such a way that some citizens will benefit greatly, and others are consigned to languish indefinitely.

    It amounts to taking property from public benefit without compensation. It amounts to granting liberties to some, while others are denied the same liberties. As it is structured now, it si fundamentally wrong.

    “and allowed localities to assess impact fees to help pay for it.”

    And what this does is allow the government to charge for granting liberties to those it chooses to.

    None of this is going to solve our growth, or transportation problems, and it isn’t intended to. This is pureley an exercise in creating crises that can then be “solved” in a manner that promotes the agenda of conservationists, while diverting any constructive conversation about the quantity and quality of conservation needed and the costs involved. We’ll just hide those costs in the impact fees.

    All of which is fine, but it adresses only one side of the problem. If the county save county resources, in terms of budget, but does so at the expensnse of citizens, then nothing is really saved: the county will merely have changed the medium in which taxes are paid.

    Even worse, if this is done assymetrically, so that some citizens benefit greatly, while others languish, then we will have lost a lot more than money.

    RH

  23. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Ray – if a locality has a limited amount of money and it prioritizes WHERE it will invest that money in infrastructure like water/sewer, why is that a “taking”?

    You cannot put water/sewer anywhere because of both fiscal and physical limitations so how would you decide WHERE to put it?

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Ray – if a locality has a limited amount of money and it prioritizes WHERE it will invest that money in infrastructure like water/sewer, why is that a “taking”?

    If that was all there were to it, I’d agree, but there is a lot more going on than that.

    It depends on how the infrastructure is funded. If everybody pays for it and a few get the benefit, then it is a taking. The problem with proffers and such is that they make it appear that developers are paying, when they are not, and so this masks the taking, behind a cloak of antideveloper righteousness.

    It is just false. In the end it is residents that pay. New residents, recent residnets, old timer residents, and future residents. the right thing to do is figure out how growth (or growth restriciton rather), actually affects these groups and make the plans accordingly.

    We will never get agreement on what the affects are, so first we need an agreement on how to find out.

    It depends on how the infrastructure is planned. If the ONLY place you can get permission to build is in the growth areas, the other citizens are planned out of the benefits of growth. It is also possible that the growth areas get benefits from growth prevention, that they don’t pay for.

    It depends on the timeframe. If EMR is right and you can plan for all the growth for fity years by using less alnd that we are already using, then you have a plan that can ruin a person’s entire life.

    Those developed areas depend on resources that come from the undeveloped areas, and those resources are generally not paid for – they are a market externality just like pollution, but in reverse. Hope Porter, PEC, American Farmland Trust, and others all say that farms are paying twice as much or more in taxes as they get in services.

    If the goal is to preserve open space and conserve county infrastructure resources by creating denser communities, then that situation ought to be reversed. We should be paying the farms not to develop instead of charging them twice as much for being told they cannot.

    I’ve described how Loudoun has increased the percapita assessed value and the percapita income of its citizens through growth. If that is the case, then those that enjoy those benefits ought to be willing to share them with those that are prohibited from growth – up to a point.

    As it stands now, those that benefit from growth get to keep the benefits, and those that are prevented from growth get to pay double.

    So, if the community wants to prioritize where to put their money in water and sewer, that’s fine, but don’t then turn around and outlaw privately operated water and sewer. You need that market check to make sure the sewer dictator isn’t taking you for a ride.

  25. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    as far as I know.. private water/sewer systems are NOT determined by the locality but by the State….

    Gated communities often do their own… and their own roads too…

    re: who pays for infrastructure –

    in the end each person ought to pay for their own share….

    and you do this every time you build a well & septic system.

    Nobody else helps you pay for this.

    No one else “owes” you any money to help you pay for this.

    In a water/sewer system, you must pay for your pro-rata share…and no one owes you anything in that situation either.

    Proffers are not for developers. they are to have each home buyer pay their fair share of the infrastructure that serves their home.

    No one that I know thinks that developers pay these – they pass them on just like they pass on the cost of other parts of the home.

    The role of local government is to provide the up-front money to finance the infrastructure but the loans have to be repaid – and they should be repaid by the folks who are served by the infrastructure.

    If they did not pay, then why should the county provide the up-front financing?

    Your deal seems to be that you think the county should provide infrastructure wherever there is demand from people… but no county could ever borrow enough money at one time to do this.

    so.. they prioritize….but the money for the infrastructure is not a gift.. it’s a loan – that has to be paid back…

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Anon 6:19p said “If the goal is to preserve open space and conserve county infrastructure resources by creating denser communities, then that situation ought to be reversed. We should be paying the farms not to develop instead of charging them twice as much for being told they cannot.”

    Please explian why you believe designated growth areas where a local government will spend money on infrastructure and direct growth would create a situation where farm owners pay twice as much (I assume you mean taxes)?

    If they are outside the growth area the taxes on their land should not increase as they would in many situations today where nearby development causes the land value to increase.

    Please explain how you reach this conclusion.

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Preserving open space has absolutely nothing to do with infrastructure provisioning.

    Infrastructure provisioning was and is a discipline that existed before preserving “open space” was a gnat on a fleas butt.

    Trying to link preservation of “open space” with infrastructure provisioning is purposeful merging and confusion of two separate issues IMHO.

    Counties do not have unlimited resources and there is no fiscal or physical way to provision infrastructure for uniform county-wide density.

    You have to choose .. where you will put your limited resources to support more dense development.

    The value of land not-so-designated only rises in value if there is some reason to believe that it benefits from proximity to existing or planned infrastructure

    and… this is important….

    ..is ASSESSED as such and thus the taxes on that land go up – and can rise above what the land can produce through farming activities.

    ..If that adjacent land was not assessed for tax purposes as having “potential” for development – what would happen?

    If someone wanted to directly challenge this aspect of growth and development in Virginia – force the assessors to prove that higher assessments on land …”for their development potential” is, in fact, a prejudicial policy that both disadvantages those who want to live on and use the land for agrarian uses and enjoyment and preordains development before the county has actually made a decision to extend infrastructure provisioning.

    In other words, our policies encourage and preordain land development and speculation because we assess vacant land on that basis to start with.

    I’m not debating the good or bad of this – only to assert – that it appears to be an accurate portrayal of that process.

    And if folks agree.. that the process actually does work that way – then is that process – causing as many problems as it might solve.

    No one is entitled to infrastructure provisioning. No one is entitled to land increasing in it’s value; and the process of provisioning infrastructure is NOT a “taking”… unless you can prove that the process is fundamentally discriminatory… in it’s intent and purpose.

    Using the concept of a “taking” used by some folks – we could say that a new government law/rule that benefited some stock holders of companies while it also essentially lowered the value of others stock holdings of companies adversely affected by the new law/rule … is … a “taking”.

    and this is a truly bizarre concept – because what it means is that the status-quo – not matter how right or wrong it is – cannot be changed – and has to be frozen in time – because it is “illegal” for government to do things that results in winners and losers – no matter that the current status quo at some point in the process of becoming the status quo – also did exactly that.

    so .. status-quo.. no matter how wrong the status-quo might be – because we can’t change it unless there is no impact.

    In other words.. Congress ceases all activity.. and the courts basically prevent changes via interpretation of the laws also.

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Please explian why you believe designated growth areas where a local government will spend money on infrastructure and direct growth would create a situation where farm owners pay twice as much “

    This is already the current situation. Several different conservation organizationa make the argument (apparently directed at the residential majority) that it is important to preserve farms because they pay twice as much in taxes as they receive in services, and this keeps residentital taxes down.

    Which is fine, but it doesn’t do much to help the farmer, or encourage him to stay in business. If there are excess taxes being paid by farmers, then they should be spent on rural services, and not go to subsidize residential tax rates.

    It isn’t hard to see how the conservation groups areguments hold. Farms pay the same rate as anyone else on the residence and tw acre. They also pay the residential rate on all their outbuildings and infrastructure. And then they pay (at a lower rate) on all the vacant land, which gets (and requires) basically no services.

    Larry claims that preserving open space has absolutely nothing to do with infrastructure provisioning, but you have only to visit the PEC website and others to see how often the two are linked. Increasing density is a pervasive argument from EMR which he claims is for reasons of efficiency, but I beleive it is a thinly veiled attempt at making more land available for conservation.

    I have no problem with conservation, and I support it, but I think there needs to be an honest discussion of how much land we really need to preserve, what the characteristics of it should be, and how much it is really costing us to do this.

    The conservationists own arguments tell us that at present, the landowners we claim to be trying to protect, are paying more than their fair share. At the same time, they ae the targets of incrementally ever increasing demands for more restrictions.

    RH

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Trying to link preservation of “open space” with infrastructure provisioning is purposeful merging and confusion of two separate issues IMHO.”

    I don’t think so. Open space IS infrastructure, and it should be recognized and paid for as such.

    How often do we hear calls for more action to protect “our valuable open spaces.”

    laarry thinks the concept of takings as used by some is bizarre, and will cause a permanent status quo. I think it only means that the market has to be considered more carefully. At present the government is free to make practically any claim for additional public benefits, and not have to pay for them.

    It is simply stealing. But, if they were faced with paying for the benefits they get, then they would only go after the ones actually worthwhile. We expect people to pay for upzoning, and we should expect to pay for downzoning.

    Besides, even if he is right and it creates more of a status quo, doesn’t that amount to a form of conservation?

    RH

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Larry says “No one is entitled to infrastructure provisioning.”

    But schools are 60% of infrastructure costs, and Larry also claims that everyone is entitled to decent basic education. So that would seem to eliminate 60% of larry’s claim.

    The process of provisioning infrasructure is not a taking. But, if you then create ordinances that eliminate all uses unless infrastructure is available, then that IS a taking. When you eliminate or restrict formerly by- right uses, then that is a taking.
    When you eliminate uses with super ordinances that create huge lot limitations where well and septic are eminenetly possible, then that is a taking, and when you create ordinances that prohibit other engineering “corrections or mitigations”, then that is a taking.

    Despite larry’s protestations, it is clear and even declared that many of these issues are for environmental purposes. Permanently reducing the potential value of private land for public environmental or fiscal benefit is a taking.

    And It is hard to see how Larry can argue that such a position favors a status quo that cannot be broken, when that is exactly the intent of many conservationists plans.

    RH

  31. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Larry says “No one is entitled to infrastructure provisioning.”

    But schools are 60% of infrastructure costs, and Larry also claims that everyone is entitled to decent basic education. So that would seem to eliminate 60% of larry’s claim.”

    let me make crystal clear:

    “no individual landowner is entitled to be provided with infrastructure”

    better?

    re: open space arguments

    are dumb no matter from where they come from.

    Vacant land without significant historic, natural or cultural resources is not a benefit to the public as much as it is an amenity for the folks who live in close proximity to it – and especially so if the space is not accessible by the general public.

    One can argue that the Piedmont viewscape is important to the public that drives through it and one can make the case that parks and the AT are accessible to the public for enjoyment.

    That’s not the same are “preserving” farms so that the folks in subdivisions have a “view” .

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    as much as it is an amenity for the folks who live in close proximity to it –

    So be it. It is an amenity that substantially incfreases the value of their (developed) property. As such, their higher valuations help keep costs down for everyone else who is developed as well.

    “and especially so if the space is not accessible by the general public.”

    Well, then you can forget about getting any additioanl conservation easements. This feature (no public access) is one that is prominently advertised on sites purporting to explain the benefits of conservation easements.

    “That’s not the same are “preserving” farms so that the folks in subdivisions have a “view” .”

    Really? I fail to see the difference. I don’t mind being placed in the viewscape business by the county, but I expect the county to provide some paying customers.

    “no individual landowner is entitled to be provided with infrastructure”

    But his children (if any) are entitled to be provided with an education, which is 60% of infrastructure costs. It is one of the costs that activists like Hope Porter constantly refer to when advocating preserving our farms “Trees and Cows don’t go to school” They say.

    So, if School is an entitlement, the owner isn’t asking for and doesn’t require water and sewer, is located far from any congested area, and physical features are not a problem, then why is it that people are so worried about by-right development?

    Why have regulations that set development rights on a sliding scale, to penalize larger holdings? Why have regulations that result in hypersize minimum lots? Why have regulations that prohibit development esentially forever, instead of allowing some growth to phase in over time? Why have regulations that allow livestock on lots as small as 5 acres?

    “Vacant land without significant historic, natural or cultural resources is not a benefit to the public….”

    There are a lot of people who would disagree with you, including public officials. “Every home that isn’t built saves the county $2700 a year.”

    Well, saves the county budget $2700 a year. It doesn’t save the county $2700 a year if you count the loss to the prospective owner, who after all is part of the county. Besides that, it isn’t even true that not building saves $2700 a year. It is bad business sense to think so, but that is besides the point. The real point is to conserve open space, no matter what the cost, or to whom.

    Granted, if you are talking about a huge, dense subdivision then it’s a different deal entirely, but there are people out there who are being seriously hurt by rules that ought not to apply.

    Even with a large dense subdivision, if the owner/developer can show adequate engineering and self support of infrastructure, then he ought to be reasonably assured of approval, but that is far from the case. if it is an issue of controlling growth, and not preventing it outright, then denial should have a sunset clause.

    RH

  33. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: saving 2700…

    stupid … is as stupid does

    not building in one area not so designated does NOT mean that no growth occurs in other places in the same county.

    this goes back to WHERE the county wants dense growth to occur and not occur. It has absolutely nothing to do with “saving” 2700 per house.

    and you totally mistake the school cost issue.

    Every taxpayer – regardless of their location owes their fair share of school costs.

    You might argue about the method of taxation – i.e. property taxes rather than income – but that aspect has nothing to do with where infrastructure is provisioned.

    Again.. it’s a false argument based on mixing the issues…and misinformation…

    talking about “saving land” to “stop growth” is not an intelligent policy.

    If it ever was, show me where it has actually “worked”.

    It doesn’t. All it does is push development to other places.

    You cannot “stop growth”.

    You cannot tell people they cannot move here.

    You won’t keep them from moving here if all vacant land is designated as “undevelopable”.

    It’s a dumb concept.

    Public money for land conservation should not be spent to preserve private viewscape amenities.

    The current concept is being used as a scam for the land-wealthy to stop development around where they live and lower their tax bills at the same time.

    Every acre that is “set aside” is another acre that increases taxes on other private, vacant land.

    the “demand” for this is like a demand for “free money” and as such .. Va was forced to cap how much could be “preserved”.

    so now.. it’s a lottery…

    you get on the list and wait…

    it was and is a dumb policy….

    another example of good intentions without any real thinking behind what would happen…

    which is where many scams come from…

    if there is a way to make money off of a new policy… some folks will find out how… and that ought to be the very first thing that is done with any new policy…is to ask “can this thing be turned into a scam?”.

    and you know what.. they already know the answer sometimes.. that’s why it is made into a law…

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “It has absolutely nothing to do with “saving” 2700 per house.”

    All I can tell you is what county officials have said and published, over and over again. Of course, what they say has a very strange, almost exact, similarity to what AFT says.

    At present, the county is buying development rights for $30,000 apiece of taxpayer money. They claim that they will earn the money backk through not losing that $2700 a year.

    Then, having bought and paid for this valuable property, they give it away to a nonprofit to hold for eternity.

    But, at the same time if they simply downzone you out of a development right, there is, of course, no taking.

    My attitude is that if they give back the development right they took for nothing, then I’d consider selling them.

    RH

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “and you totally mistake the school cost issue.

    Every taxpayer – regardless of their location owes their fair share of school costs. “

    I didn’t say they didn’t owe their share of school costs. I merely pointed out that you have claimed basic school education is an entitlement.

    If that is the case, then you cannot use schools as one of the arguments against preventing development through lack of infrastructure.

    RH

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “talking about “saving land” to “stop growth” is not an intelligent policy……..

    It’s a dumb concept.”

    Agreed, to points one through seven.

    “Public money for land conservation should not be spent to preserve private viewscape amenities.”

    Why not? Providing you can show a positive ROI.

    I know personally a farmer that got $6.3 million dollars to protect a (fabulous) viewscape. She had no intention whatever of building on it, but that isn’t the point. Now her children and grandchildren can’t build on it either. The property is still private, she can graze her sheep, and no one can so much as walk on it. It was probably still a worthwhile investment, hard as that is to believe.

    “The current concept is being used as a scam for the land-wealthy to stop development around where they live and lower their tax bills at the same time.”

    Except that, as we have seen, it doesn’t. They pay regular tax rates on their (sometimes fabulous)home and two acres. Plus taxes (at residential rates) on their horse barns, guest houses, other outbuildings, etc. Then they pay more tax on land that gets no services and they can’t do anything with.

    If you demand full rates, they will demand full spectrum of opportunities. And at full rates, even rich people might be forced to take advantage of them.

    “Every acre that is “set aside” is another acre that increases taxes on other private, vacant land.”

    And yet, despite the higher than normal taxes paid, this is the argument you hear. It is going on yet again in Fauquier County. A community activist is suggesting that the rate for land use property be raised. some people think it should be eliminated.

    Except, they forget this is land that can’t be used for anything. If you now wanted to charge full rate for it, you have a war on your hands from those that gave up their development rights.

    And yet, there is nothing in the contract that guarantees the owner a land use rate forever, just a promise that the owner won’t ever develop. It’s pretty one-sided.

    So, the question is do you give up on the land use taxation? If you do, do you give back the development rights? How do you give back something that you gave away to a third party? What about farmers who get land use taxation conditional on their continuing to farm? How many of them will fold up shop, tomorrow? Are you going to hold them in agricultural reserves and still charge them residential rates?

    I don’t think so, unless you really want to force the issue of what constitutes a taking.

    As a result (of the higher actual per residence taxes paid, and other issues) I don’t think that
    “Every acre that is “set aside” is another acre that increases taxes on other private, vacant land.” is exactly correct.

    Land that is set aside is still taxed, but it gets no services and no opportunities. How does that increase someone else’s taxes?

    Likewise, land that is farmed is still taxed, but gets no services and virtually no opportunities. If the opportunities do develop and are used, then you pay rollback taxes at the full rate. Again, since they pay far more than most residences, how are they raising taxes? And, they are a business to boot, so they pay business taxes.

    So, the only vacant land that it increases taxes on is vacant land that is not farmed and is being held only for speculation and development. (plus vacant land that is already in residential use, like large lots). This land gets taxed at full rate, sometimes for decades before it is developed. It gets no services during that time, but when it is finally developed we claim, “Whoa, there, you are getting windfall profits by upzoning and you owe us money, lots of money.”

    It seems like a double standard if we claim restrictions are not a taking, but we think that releasing restrictions is a windfall.

    It seems like a double standard if we claim open space is a scam for the rich but we demand more and more environmental freebies.

    It seems a double standard to claim that development raises taxes and then not concede that preventing development doesn’t save taxes. Sure, development might happen someplace else, but otherwise it might occur someplace else ALSO.

    It seems wrong to claim that more taxes per residence actually amount to a tax break.

    It seems wrong to claim that we should tax at full rate on land that is significantly restricted.

    And, therefore, having recognized the value of restrictions, how can we then claim additional ones are not a taking?

    It is a giant shell game. The only way I can see that we get fair market value for our investment in green infrastructure is to either pay fair market value for the restrictions imposed, or buy the land outright, and make it public.

    If that happens, those that oppose development will have to pay to make sure that they get their wishes, instead of basically stealing them for free.

    Why is it basically stealing? Even if you buy a development right for $30,000, it is a one time payment. The owner(s) will still pay taxes on it for eternity. Over enough time, the owners ROI goes to zero and the county’s ROI goes to infinity.

    Everybody ought to want to stand in line for that one.

    RH

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    And after you sort through all of that, you still have to figure out what the proper relationship is betwen road use and land use. Who benefits, and who pays.

    If you figure that out, then you can subtract the answer from the user pays argument on road use.

    RH

  38. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Patchwork land set-asides ANYWHERE in the State, is, in my mind a questionable practice unless the land has some specific natural, historic, or cultural significance or is part of a legitimate government effort to meet a public need.

    If the National Park Service were allowed to acquire any land and then let it be used for private use – and regardless of it’s significance – there would be a huge outcry…

    … yet.. in my mind..that’s what we’ve done with Conservation Easements…

    ..we don’t have a strategic goal other than the fuzzy idea that setting aside land is a “good thing” in the subjective mind of the owner who pursues such status.. and I question if this is really in the public interest for every single one of them done.

    I differentiate this type of transaction from the philanthropic actions of those who make outright land donations to the state and let the state determine best use.

    Some, not all, Conservation Easement transactions are not to benefit the public but to benefit personal or familial interests and that is not philanthropic.

  39. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Some, not all, Conservation Easement transactions are not to benefit the public but to benefit personal or familial interests and that is not philanthropic.”

    I’ll agree to that, but it’s different from saying all land set aside raises other’s taxes.

    RH

  40. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Patchwork land set asides is what you get when you try to work on the cheap, instead of raising the money to buy what you need.

    Land set asides are not acquisitions. At least not of land.
    What is acquired is the building rights, and the land is still available for private use.

    It is part of the bundle of sticks theory of property rights, whithout which conservation easements can’t work.

    But, it raises two questions. What happens to the development rights paid for with public funds? If the public funds are used to buy development rights, then isn’t that an admission that development rights are property that canot be taken without compensation?

    RH

  41. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    doesn’t that depend on how you define a development right?

    do you seriously think someone is going to pay commercial land prices for land that is zoned rural?

    I’d say. that the development “right” is only “by right”.

    it’s not in the bush but in your hand.

    no?

  42. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …and why would the government even pay a penny for land in the out and beyond that is zoned rural in the first place?

  43. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    there is a problem and that is how land is assessed…

    you can have two identical sized rural parcels – that have exactly the same by-right – and the county will assess them differently because of the “potential” for development.

    In other words, rural land next to commercial land is worth more than rural land surrounded by thousands of acres of more rural land.

    this means, in my mind, that the county itself is… speculating.. or worse.. expecting to re-designate some rural land to higher density land and they tax it that way such that folks who own rural land – cannot afford to pay the taxes on it and are forced to sell it to a developer who will then seek a rezone.

    wrong?

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “doesn’t that depend on how you define a development right?”

    Absolutely. A big part of the problems we have is that these were never overtly rcognized or defined. It was previously assumed that if you had land you had rights.

    We go to great lengths to describe the land and we hire professionals with laser sites to do it. And then we say NOTHING about the other bundle of sticks that go with it. What rights accrue, and what rights don’t.

    In fact, under Fauquier regulations you might have to do a title search to find out what rights you have, because they may have been used up be prevous owners. Even the county can’t tell you what you can do and can’t do on request. The process is too expensive, and they will want a full disclaimer on their answer, anyway.

    It would be a lot easier if it was just included on the deed. But then, it would be recorded property, and the county would be bound to defend it.

    —————————–

    …and why would the government even pay a penny for land in the out and beyond that is zoned rural in the first place?

    And why would they care if someone built on it, then? In Fauquier, that is exactly the land they are buying development rights from. I’m sure I don’t know why. Let’s take out a lease to prevent the future, why not?

    ——————————–

    “In other words, rural land next to commercial land is worth more than rural land surrounded by thousands of acres of more rural land.”

    I think it is a case where, like you said, it is best to let business do what it does best.

    I had a neighbor approach me with a petition to prevent another neighbor from subdividing. I wouldn’t sign it. I told the petitioner that if they thought it was worthwhile not to have the land subdivided, then they should buy it and not subdivide it.

    “Oh, Well, I couldn’t afford that.”

    Then get some neighbors to help you. Form a corporation and buy it that way. Otherwise, if you can’t afford to hold it, what makes you think your neighbor can afford to?

    ———————————

    “the county itself is… speculating.. or worse..”

    It was interesting during the downturn to see counties that had been complaining about growth, suddenly complaining about the lack of it.

    My wife’s property is on an interstate direclty between two interchanges. If it was anyplace else inthe state, it would be zoned light industrial. It would make a great truck stop, since the visitor center is over-run with trucks. They could hang out here untill off hours and then dash to the distribution centers.

    But, in this case, precisely because it has development potential, the county will work to kill it.

    I’ve seen it work both ways. I knew a fellow with a small farm who wanted to develop. he was told he couldn’t because of lack of sewer. Then the county bought his property (at rural prices) and built the sewage plant. His neighbors later developed and they made a killing. He got squat.

    But there was another fellow who had a farm (last one in the county) and the county zoned him for housing, essentially forcing him out. Then the county bought his property (at residential lot rates) and turned it into a park so it wouldn’t be developed. In that case the county did the old geezer a kindness.

    Wasn’t the town of Ransom started from scratch in the middle of nowhwere? Las Vegas?

    Let business do what it does, whithin reason. Anything else is bad for the county coffers, bad for the citizens coffers too.

    The big mistake is making decision based ONLY on the county budget, as if that was necessarily what is good for the county.

    RH

  45. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”previously assumed that if you had land you had rights. “

    wrong.

    The State and Federal Constitution makes it crystal clear – your rights are DEFINED by the Constitution and Law and that includes “takings”.

    and if your “right” is not explicit, it is the State who will “assume” what they are and are not.

    re: county revenues.. re: water/electric conservation = higher costs…

    when the rate schedule FAVORs consumption – and consumption decreases – bad stuff happens..

    that does NOT mean that encouraging consumption over conservation was a good strategy to start with…

    you.. pay the pipe sooner or later if consumption is the model…

    putting it off by having those that conserve – subsidize those that consumer.. only delays paying the piper…

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “…your rights are DEFINED by the Constitution and Law and that includes “takings”.

    Right. And the constitution clearly says that property shall not be taken for public use without compensation. The courts have repeatedly upheld the doctrine of a “budle of sticks” that makes conservation easement possible. The courts have upheld many cases in which property was “taken”, not physically, but through excessive adverse regulation.

    The law is well defined on this point. The problem is not the law, but access to the courts.

    However, you are correct in saying that in some cases your rights are not explicit. I am correct in saying that it was previously assumed that if you had land, you had rights. At one time, there was no requirement for a building permit, for example; it was assumed you had that right, and enough sense not to kill yourself doing it.

    But, what has happened is that over time those rights have become more valuable and various groups have tried to exert new claims on ownership, which never existed before.

    It is the government’s responsibility to protect private property and enforce contract law. Therefore it is incumbent on the government to make sure that the rights are stated explicitly.

    In your own case, you bought property suitable for two building lots, and that should have been recorded on your deed. Then, when the county wanted to eliminate one of your lots, their course of action would have been clear – and legal.

    Regardless of how it was done, removing that lot without your consent and without compensation, violates the spirit and intent of the Constitution, and it is counter to several incidents of case law.

    But, it is simply too expensive and too lenghty a process to fight for your rights. It is a fight you should not have to make, because that is the government’s job.

    The more the value of these previously assumed rights increase, the more frequently they will be explicitly expressed. Property was previously expressed as “from the river to the big oak tree” and it was assumed that no one would intrude, that the deal was as good as those who made it. Chiselers and hucksters and property thieves mean it is now measured and recorded to the quarter inch. The remainder of that bundle of sticks are going to turn out the same way.

    If they don’t, then the environmental movement is dead, because in the end, environmental rights are property rights, just as we can easily see with conservation easements.

    We cannot claim in any instance that EITHER consumption is better than conservation OR that conservation is better than consumption. Those answers will change with respect to demand, place, and time. Right now we encourage conservation over consumption with respect to ANWR, but it remains to be seen if that will always be the answer.

    The costs of consumption and conservation always fit a curve. Too much of EITHER one ALWAYS raises the total price paid for the combination.

    You apparently don’t believe that, but it is a lesson conservationists will learn the hard way if they don’t learn it proactively.

    RH

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