TOSSING ROCKS AT EMPTY PIGEON HOLES

With his post on terrorists and porous borders (“Open Door Policy for Terrorist”) Groveton has done it again: Tossing rocks at empty pigeon holes.

This time it is not ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives,’ it is ‘lefties’ and ‘righties.’ That is better but the result is the same.

What Groveton will always get are replies like Peter’s and then pointless back and forths with no progress toward consensus on a plan of action.

Many agree with Groveton that a demonstrably porous border is an invitation to more than just Mexicans and Central Americans seeking a better life or implementing a better drug distribution system.

However, most who give the topic any rational thought will also agree with the points raised by Peter and Larry.

What is the point? Why throw stones? There is NOTHING in those pigeon holes, not even pigeons.

First, terrorists:

The only way to stop terrorism is to eliminate the CAUSES of terrorism.

Second, Illegal Immigration:

There are millions of illegal immigrants not because of soft hearted ‘lefties’ but because of the laws were not enforced as TMT points out in his comment.

The laws were not strengthened, the laws were not enforced and resources were not allocated to enforce the laws because of political pressure from Enterprises and Institutions. Thank you Supremes.

The pressure that resulted in millions of illegals has not come from ‘lefties.’ The pressure has come from those who one would ‘expect’ to find in a ‘righties’ pigeon hole. (As Groveton suggests “ … the righties believe that illegal is illegal and if you are caught doing something illegal you should pay the price (presumably deportation).” Check out the positions of the US Chamber of Commerce, check out Big Ag, etc.

The Wealth Gap has been growing wider since the mid 70s. A major reason is that wages and benefits have not kept up with productivity and profit. One way to be sure there is NOT a Balance of supply and demand is to let cheap labor sneak into the nation-state.

In the last 35 years four Donkey Clan administrations (lefties?) and six Elephant Clan administrations (righties?) have overseen decade after decade of more and more porous borders vis a vis cheap labor (and drugs).

Those who have supported weakening and / or not enforcing immigration laws have made campaign contributions and lobbied for these actions because they wanted cheap labor. They also wanted to prevent a ‘labor shortage’ that would drive up the cost of doing business.

Sealed borders will not stop terrorists. Even if they would, according to Enterprise Media, the majority of the terrorists arrested IN the US of A since 2002 are US citizens.

The widening Wealth Gap in the US of A and aggression that can be spun to seem like it is aimed at a specific religious group (many attribute the actions to a desire to keep the price of oil low) are given as the reasons for radicalization of the Times Square bomber.

Anwar al-Awiaki, the “teacher” of the American born US Army major in the Ft. Hood shooting is also American born.

In the EU, the UAE and elsewhere, tight borders controls, identity cards, profiling and other tools has not prevented the tensions from rising over ‘guest workers.’ To solve a problem one has to go to the root of the problem.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to help sender nation-states provide a better way of life for citizens.

Intelligent Globalization is co-terminus with Regional sustainability

One Region cannot sustain itself by unfairly obtaining the resources of another Region. The definition of “fair” has to be agreed upon by BOTH Regions.

One Region (or group of Regions in an nation-state) cannot pay less than a fair price for any resource – not oil, not diamonds, not labor. Nation-states and continental / multi-nation-state trading blocks cannot provide ‘international development aid’ that results in the extraction and export of resources from less well to do Regions to more well to do Regions.

On a flat Earth with literate populations, instantaneous communications and weapons of mass destruction, the parameters of what is intelligent must reflect reality.

To protect itself, the US of A should be providing expertise in education and specifically in governance transformation to create equal opportunity for all citizens and population management that reflects the enlightened self-interest of citizens. These are the tools Agencies should be providing to our own population.

EMR


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Comments

63 responses to “TOSSING ROCKS AT EMPTY PIGEON HOLES”

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    When reviewing a draft of this post it struck me that George III could have avoided war with the colonial ‘terrorists” by reversing the pig headed actions that reasonable men (sic) thought were outrageous – taxation without representation, etc. The fact that the Founding Fathers “had a dream” of upper class self-rule without a king (plus the vast natural resources and later immigrant human resources to make it happen) in retrospect makes the American Revolution appear to be a noble mission and not terrorism. If Groveton was an investor from Liverpool in 1773 he would see the patriots as terrorists.

    The way to stop Muslim terrorists is not to ‘seal’ the border but to help moderate Muslims isolate the radicals in their own Dooryards, in their own Clusters … in their own Regions. If ‘terrorists” cannot recruit supporters to their cause, they are powerless. Terrorists gain power from what rational citizens view as justification for radicalism.

    AZA

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “On a flat Earth with literate populations, instantaneous communications and weapons of mass destruction the parameters of what is intelligent must reflect reality.”

    The era of protecting mercantile interests by supporting Banana Republics run by tropical fruit companies and paying off dictators that claim to be anti-communist (the sordid case of Papa Doc in Haiti) must end.

    The Mexican border is porous because of the money to be made in selling drugs and because of there is the hope for a significantly better life on the other side. Both of those reasons must be eradicated before the border can be secure. And then there will be no reason to secure the border beyond what is done with Canada.

    The US must rethink the way it control drugs and must learn to help other nation states if we are to protect ourselves.

    The age of American Exceptionalism will end either with the decline of the United States or the ascendancy of other nations to a comparable status. Time is running out to make a decision.

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The laws were not strengthened, the laws were not enforced and resources were not allocated to enforce the laws because we all know that this is a clear case where you could easily spend far more to fix the problem than the problem costs.

    RH

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    " pointless back and forths with no progress toward consensus on a plan of action."

    That plan of actionis going to depend on both sides getting what they think is fair.

    We do not have a procedure for determining what is fair. We could have one, but no one wants itr because they think thyeycan get more than fair through partisan political action.

    RH

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There is NOTHING in those pigeon holes, not even pigeons.”

    Not one rational citizen in 10,000 REALLY believes what ‘the other side’ says those occupying a pigeon hole believe in.

    Almost no one wants ‘big government for big governments sake.’ What 80 percent of citizens want is the results of functional and efficient governance.

    Almost no one wants ‘no regulations.’ What 80 of citizens want is fair administration of reasonable regulations.

    The pigeon holes are empty. Stop tossing rocks and start looking for overarching strategies to achieve consensus.

    CJC

  6. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Good point CJC

    To repeat from “Let Us Talk of PIGS”:

    Intelligent Globalism is Regional Sustainability.

    Regional Sustainability rests on Balanced Communities.

    For any citizen and her Household the most important aspect of the economy – Global, Continental, MegaRegional or Regional – and where to invest is understanding the importance of:

    Economic, social and physical investment in her Unit, her Dooryard and her Cluster See PROPERTY DYNAMICS PART ELEVEN of TRILO-G.

    To make her Unit, Dooryard and Cluster ‘liveable’ (aka, provide a path to a high quality of life for the Household), her Neighborhood and Village must be functional.

    To achieve functional Neighborhoods and Villages the Community must be Balanced.

    Balanced Communities are the building blocks of a sustainable Region, especially New Urban Regions.

    EMR

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I'm convinced that CJC, AZA, and EMR are actually Sybill.

    RH

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Ray, state and local governments are paying huge sums of money to deal with the fact that illegal immigration imports poverty. The need to devote additional resources to these children is pushing up class size to unacceptable limits in many areas of Fairfax County. The workers simply do not generate sufficient taxes to pay the added social and educational costs for their children and those of their co-workers. And there are no means for local governments to capture the income value of the lower wages being paid to illegal immigrants.

    If there were a local income tax and employers paying wages to illegal immigrants were taxed on the imputed value of the wage savings, things might (or might not) look different.

    Border enforcement and attrition work. There is no need to go house to house looking for illegal immigrants. Aggressive prosecution against businesses employing illegal workers would begin to dry up work, which in turn, would create pressures for many illegals to return to their home countries and would discourage additional immigration.

    Enforcement doesn't occur because government doesn't want it to occur.

    TMT

  9. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    As one who engaged in the Mexican-borders thread that EMR was referring to, I have to admit, it was an argument over an arcane point and really not worth the effort. I just react viscerally when Peter throws the "racism" charge at everyone who doesn't agree with him. He is right, the Mexican border is the least of our worries when it comes to terrorists. EMR is right, our biggest worry right now is home-grown terrorists. There are good arguments to be made for sealing the borders, but blocking terrorists really isn't one of them.

    There are serious questions to be raised about immigrant/illegal immigration, and EMR touched upon one of them. Whose interests does it serve to allow illegals into the country? It serves the economic interests of business owners and the political interests of Democrats. The people who lose from from this informal look-the-other-way policy are the blue collar workers whose wages are depressed as a result, and the taxpayers who pick up the tab for educational and healthcare services.

    EMR's ideas about "providing expertise in education and specifically in governance transformation" are very idealistic. However, I'm not so sure the Mexicans would be terribly receptive to anything that that the Yanquis would have anything to say to them. And given the conditions there, between the drug lords and the Marxist leftists, I'm not sure Mexico is in a position to absorb any useful ideas that we might suggest to them. They have to find their own way. I'm not confident they will.

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Ray, state and local governments are paying huge sums of money to deal with the fact that illegal immigration imports poverty. The need to devote additional resources to these children is pushing up class size to unacceptable limits in many areas of Fairfax County. The workers simply do not generate sufficient taxes to pay the added social and educational costs for their children and those of their co-workers.

    Well, they didn't when they were in Mexico, either.

    The question is whether we and they are better off or not. without them we would be paying higher prices for labor, so they [whatever workers replaced them] could pay enough taxes to educate their own children.

    Either way the money comes out of our pockets, and I'm not convinced that the latter way is a better deal.

    Like I say, if that's the problem, give them temporary permits and let them pay double taxes.

    I think they would pay without batting an eye, and the complaints about immigrants would continue.

    Whites are going to be a minority in Arizona, eventually, and they want to prolong their position as long as possible.

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Enforcement doesn't occur because government doesn't want it to occur."

    Like I said, government regards it as bad resource management to spend more than the problem costs.

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Ray, I am not opposed to a guest worker program that authorized foreign citizens to come to the U.S. and work. I'd like to see them work with the protections of our labor laws. But there's a big difference between getting a permit and then coming to Arizona or Virginia or wherever and just coming across the border.

    Enforce the law. If you don't want to conduct worker raids, then just go after the employers. Sue them; prosecute them; fine them; jail if necessary. Two or three years of vigorous enforcement would make a big difference in many ways. If and when wages for the bottom quartile increase for two years in a row, we probably have a secure border.

    TMT

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    and the political interests of Democrats.

    Why is that? Hispanics are hardworking, conservative right-to-life Catholics who ought to be ripe pickings for Republicans.

    Remember the raid on the Airport in Salt Lake City (a republican stronghold)?

    Darn near shut down the airport and Republicans were mortified.

    If it supports business interests, isn't that in favor of Republican political interests?

    If you throw an new brown hen in with a bunch of white ones, it is going to get pecked on. Fo all the rationalizations going on, the level of this discourse is not much more advanced than that:

    We hate change, we hate anything new, and we hate anything different from us.

    If it is about money, raise the price.

    RH

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    But there's a big difference between getting a permit and then coming to Arizona or Virginia or wherever and just coming across the border.

    I tried to get a permit once, and the government disabused me of that idea pretty quick. And mycontact at INS was a ms Rodriguez.

    I'm not buying it. If we wanted permits to work, we could make them work.

    I work right longside my guys, wherever they come form, and they get the same benefits I get. Except they know they are going to get paid at the end of the day.

    RH

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Enforce the law. Make INS do its job: when a US citizen asks for a permit, give him one. Don't give him a three year runaround.

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I'd like to see them work with the protections of our labor laws.

    You mean like "Right to Work"?

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    How about we just annex Mexico and Cuba: create eleven more states.

    That should throw the composition of the legislature into a tizzy.

    Which party do you think would be more opposed?

    RH

  18. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    EMR,
    Good post. I thought I'd stick in these lyrics by Leonard COhen (A Canadian, no less!)

    Can you tell me why the bells are ringing?
    Nothing's happened in a million years
    I've been sitting here since Wednesday morning
    Wednesday morning can't believe my ears
    Jazz police are looking through my folders
    Jazz police are talking to my niece
    Jazz police have got their final orders
    Jazzer, drop your axe, it's Jazz police!

    Jesus taken serious by the many
    Jesus taken joyous by a few
    Jazz police are paid by J. Paul Getty
    Jazzers paid by J. Paul Getty II

    Jazz police I hear you calling
    Jazz police I feel so blue
    Jazz police I think I'm falling,
    I'm falling for you

    Wild as any freedom loving racist
    I applaud the actions of the chief
    Tell me now oh beautiful and spacious
    Am I in trouble with the Jazz police?

    Jazz police are looking through my folders …

    They will never understand our culture
    They'll never understand the Jazz police
    Jazz police are working for my mother
    Blood is thicker margarine than grease

    Let me be somebody I admire
    Let me be that muscle down the street
    Stick another turtle on the fire
    Guys like me are mad for turtle meat

    Jazz police I hear you calling
    Jazz police I feel so blue
    Jazz police I think I'm falling,
    I'm falling for you

  19. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    all in all… those who are concerned about illegal immigration and CHOOSE to CONFLATE it with drug running, violence and terrorism are NOT seriously interested in their claimed cause …. in my view.

    and so I have to ask what it is they are really trying to accomplish?

    You could pull me and people like me into a compromise position involving equal amounts of toads to swallow but all you will do with trying to equate it to terrorism is further convince me of the disreputable motives that INCLUDE those with racism on their minds.

    If you want to actually DEAL with the Issue – then DEAL WITH IT – on the merits.

    More silliness from the right when they claim the Dems are trying to get more votes.

    Well…who would Hispanics and Latinos NORMALLY – ALLY WITH?

    Lets' see.. Latinos are religious, family-oriented, self-reliant in the extreme, entrepreneurial in their actions, not known especially for gay marriage or child molestation..or pro-abortion leanings…

    yet.. the FIRST THING the folks on the right bring up.. is that the Dems want those votes.

    Well.. all I can say is … what a bunch of dumb butts – but heck.. that seems to be who the Republicans/Conservatives seem to want to be these days… and a loss to all of us that they have truly lost their way on so many issues.

    dumb butts … the dark side of Forest Gump for sure.

  20. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    There is some racism at play here. It's the Jim Crow kind of racism. The kind best exemplified by long time DEMOCRATIC Virginia governor Harry F Byrd.

    Under Demo-racism minorities are kept from having power by limiting the economic opportunities available to minorities. In other words, you keep the poor from getting rich.

    The racism of our open borders policy would make DEMOCRAT Harry F Byrd proud. This particular racism prevents minorities in America from climbing the economic ladder by allowing the illegal immigration of millions of people willing to work for very low wages.

    African-Americans and other long-suffering minority groups are kept in poverty by the Demo-racists who understand the interplay of supply, demand and price quite well.

  21. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    tell me again what party is OPPOSED to making the hiring of an illegal a felony?

    Who wants employers to continue to be free to hire illegals for substandard wages and benefits?

    Not me. That's, in fact, my first thing I believe we need to do.

    Have immigration post agents where day workers congregate and start taking down license plates of the vehicles that pick them up…then rip each and every one of them a new one – and then see how hard it will become to get cheap labor.

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    As one of my condtruction buddies points out, if he hires an illegal he is subject to a $50k fine, but if an illegal starts an unlicensed construction ompy he is subject to a $5000 fine.

    He believes undocumented aliens keep him from "climbing the ladder"

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    African Americans don't want those jobs either: they have already served their time in the fields.

    RH

  24. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    3 pronged attack:

    1. Patrol the border. Build the fence (if necessary). Enforce our laws. Use deadly force as a last resort.

    2. Deport the illegals.

    3. Arrest the employers.

    As for "time in the fields" – that's another myth. There are a lot of illegal aliens in Northern Virginia but not many farms. Construction labor, roofers, plumbers, waitresses, waiters, medical personnel, janitors, etc.

    You'd be surprised how many people would take those jobs if the labor supply were not artifically inflated (and the wages artifically deflated) by illegal immigration.

    In fact, a rational labor supply would also make unionizing more likely. And one of the few decent ideas regarding the reduction of the income gap is unionization of lower skilled jobs.

    Finally, more expensive labor would raise prices. Which, in turn, would decrease consumption. So, even EMR would be happy.

    Labor is an economic input like any other. Flooding the market for low skill labor through illegal immigration lowers the price enterprises pay for the labor and prevents all workers (legal and illegal) from moving up the economic ladder.

  25. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    "If Groveton was an investor from Liverpool in 1773 he would see the patriots as terrorists.".

    Not unless they snuck into London and blew up buildings full of civilians. Kind of like the IRA used to do. And I did very much think of the IRA as terrorists. Terrorists who should be captured and/or killed. Terrorists whose financial supporters in the United States should have served long, long jail terms.

  26. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    1. Patrol the border. Build the fence (if necessary). Enforce our laws. Use deadly force as a last resort.

    2. Deport the illegals.

    3. Arrest the employers.

    I'd pick reverse order and I'd like to hear more specificity on the "deport (ALL no matter what?) illegals?

    I think that's just plain unworkable and this is the area where toad swallowing is demanded.

    I don't want people who have lived here for 15 years and have 3 kids – deported – without recourse.

    On the other hand, someone who has been here for 6 months – out they go – even if they have "family" here but we do give them a path.

    I'm looking for REAL solutions not sound-bite "the law is the law" approaches.

    toad swallowing pragmatism is mandatory …

    you give…I give.. and we agree on something that neither one of us like but instead hated it equally.. …

    it's called compromise and we have forgotten this in today's politics..

    today.. it's all about getting your guy (like Cuccineli) "in charge" and he will do the deed.

    It's an Alice in Wonderland approach to solving tough-nut problems.

    If that's your approach, go join the tea pots cuz that approach is going nowhere and we have proof of it right in front of us.

  27. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    No, No, No.

    Sorry Groveton, EMR was not clear:

    EMR said:

    "If Groveton was an investor from Liverpool in 1773 he would see the patriots as terrorists.".

    Groveton responded:

    “Not unless they snuck into London and blew up buildings full of civilians. Kind of like the IRA used to do. And I did very much think of the IRA as terrorists. Terrorists who should be captured and/or killed. Terrorists whose financial supporters in the United States should have served long, long jail terms.”

    EMRs comment was based on having been one of four partners who in 1969 purchased from The Crown the remains of a sugar mill and rum distillery that had failed to pay the distillery tax some years before.

    The mill and distillery was “the works” serving an estate called Martin’s Yard. The rest of the land in Martin's Yard had been taken over in the 19th century by freed slaves — or neighbors.

    The Martin family which owned the estate was from Liverpool as we recall. Interest in the economy of these small mills in the Carribean led to an inquiry into the origin and function of British upper class ‘investment’ in the Colonies.

    Martin’s Yard was established circa 1715. Similar investments were made in other non-resident Enterprises in all the colonies. (In a research paper, EMR compared these ‘investments’ to a doctor buying a limited partnership in a low rise speculative apartment building near a university in the 1960s.)

    What I was suggesting in the 'Liverpool 1773' sentence was that RH. Groveton who lived in Liverpool invested in a small printing and binding business in Boston and saw the rumblings about ‘independence’ as terrorism because he would lose his equity.

    Hope you agree now that you understand the context.

    Since your return you have made several statements with which we agree such as:

    “Labor is an economic input like any other. Flooding the market for low skill labor through illegal immigration lowers the price enterprises pay for the labor and prevents all workers (legal and illegal) from moving up the economic ladder.”

    and some with which we do not. More on that later.

    Keep up the good work…

    EMR

  28. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    "If that's your approach, go join the tea pots cuz that approach is going nowhere and we have proof of it right in front of us.".

    Yes, the conservative Republican approach is going nowehere. I guess we all just imagined the elections in VA, NJ and Mass.

    We'll see this November how well the country likes the Obama agenda. I understand his approval rating has reached 44%. In less than 2 years. Wow. Maybe he ought to start licking toads himself.

    And, speaking of toad swallowing (whatever the hell that means) …

    You would arrest the employers who give jobs to illegal aliens but you wouldn't deport those same illegal aliens. Presumably, you'd dream up another amnesty program. As always … more government, more regulation. You can break the law but it doesn't really count. Unless, of course, you are caught wearing rosary beads in a public school. Or praying. You know … something really heinous to the liberal value system.

    How well did the last amnesty program work? I believe it was the 1986 handiwork of Ronald Reagan. I guess I could be heartened to know that you've become a Reagan supporter but back to the question at hand. How well did the last amnesty program work? Did it fix the illegal immigration problem? Did it secure the borders?

    The definition of insanity (beyond just being a liberal) is to do the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

    Another amnesty? Larry – what size straight jacket can I order for you?

  29. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    no, the definition of insanity is to say you want to do the same thing over and over and there is not a chance of a snowball in hades that you will be able to do it so you just refuse to engage the issue… drawing a line in the sand and like a kid…saying "just wait until my daddy gets in charge"…

    as far as Government regulation… here we have someone who wants the government to get big enough to build a airtight perimeter while they aren't busy trying to track down every last illegal immigrant.

    This is what is wrong with the folks on the right.

    They are living in LA LA land as to what the reasonable options for moving forward are – and are not.

    so their retort is – " just wait until we get in charge".

    well.. you guys were in charge for 8 years.. don't you remember?

    ya'll are all mouth and no "do".

    huff and puff and blow the house down… in your dreams…

    but actually dealing with the reality – on the ground – in terms of real solutions.. no dice…

    that's what I mean about swallowing toads.

    you cannot win unless you are willing to make serious compromises – not because I say so but because reality makes it so.

    If you could not "make it happen" with a Republican President and both houses of Congress.. tell me exactly WHEN you will get your whole loaf approach?

    never going to happen.

    amnesty – yes.

    when, where, how, who, what, etc?

    room for compromise .. and toad swallowing…

    your's is on the platter – wating…..

  30. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    just so there is no misunderstanding.

    I'm willing to do what a majority of Americans would favor doing.

    A national referenda.

    If it was their will to send everyone back – then I would support it..

    .. as long as YOU support – whatever the majority decides

    also…

    deal?

  31. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    EMR has been on the road and when he returned he posted a note on Martin Yard above.

    By the way “… or neighbors.” above should be “… OUR neighbors” and more wonderful folks you will not find anywhere.

    Upon further review it seems those who want debate the merits of immigration reform in response to Groveton’s post “Open Door Policy for Terrorists” and those who want to discuss tossing rocks at pigeon holes are cross posting. So be it.

    We intend to keep after the pigeon holes issue:

    Under his own post Groveton said:

    “… EMR found mere comments insufficient preferring to write an entire article about throwing rocks in empty pidgeon [sic – EMR is happy he is not the only one who has problems with that word :>)] holes (whatever the hell that means).”

    EMR suspects Groveton knows EXACTLY what tossing rocks at pigeon holes means.

    Groveton – and others who EMR admires who post here at BRB – show a maddening ability to switch back and forth between tossing rocks at pigeon holes (using words like ‘liberal,’ ‘conservative,’ ‘Democrat,’ ‘Republican’ to describe beliefs in which no one really believes) then switching back to make rational statements.

    Groveton need now worry that he will be dubbed “The King of Pigeon Hole Rock Tossers.”

    The one in first place in that race is “Arthur C. Brooks” president of the American Enterprise Institute.

    Most Hon. A. C. Brooks rocketed into the lead among Rock Tossers with feature ‘essay’ on Page One of the 23 May Outlook in WaPo. (Someone they were counting on to provide useful insights must have canceled and the typesetter was left with the Brooks essay.)

    OK Peter Brooks can be found at:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/21/AR2010052101854.html

    Brooks starts by claiming citizens have only two choices with respect to a future path.

    He next demonstrates his grasp of reality by stating that housing is the most regulated sector of the economy and that OVER regulation of housing is the cause of The Great Recession. Enough said.

    He claims that the new culture war will be between the 70 percent who believe in ‘free enterprise’ and the 30 percent who believe in ‘income redistribution.’

    [It is very lively that if asked in an even handed manner 80 percent would favor free enterprise AND income redistribution to shrink the Wealth Gap because more and more understand that on a finite planet with 6.7 billion humans, extensive literacy, instantaneous communication and weapons of mass destruction the current trajectory is unsustainable.]

    But you have to read the essay to grasps how desperate he is to stuff everyone who does not agree with him on “earned success” into pigeon holes and then toss rocks at them.

    As noted in the original post, almost no one believes the things Brooks lists as the core beliefs of The 30 Percenters.

    Brooks can fill pigeon holes with rocks with either hand while blindfolded.

    EMR

  32. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    People where I work often talk about "eating your own dog food". I always ask, "Who the hell would want to eat dog food?". Now, Larry wants to swallow toads. Hmmmm…

    We did an amnesty once and it was a total failure. Now, Larry wants to do another one. Hmmmm…

    Seems to me that if you start jailing employers who hire illegals then they will stop hiring illegals. And … if you stop providing social services to illegals then it gets hard to see what the illegals will do here in the US. My bet? They'll just leave. A few will get in trouble and they'll get arrested and deported.

    Here's an experiment for you Larry … pick a nice liberal country like France or Canada. Sneak into that country illegally and work for wages paid "under the table". Then, one day, tell the government of those nice liberal countries that you're going to stay because … well, just because. What do you think they would do? Just hand you a visa and a glass of wine? Or, would they tell you to get the hell out of their country and come back when you've gone through the process properly.

    In fact, I like the idea of liberals moving from the US to France. The average IQs in both countries would go up.

  33. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    you've almost stumbled onto the solution Groveton.

    No jobs = no stay.

    the word will get out.

    you won't need a wall.

    you won't need to triple the number of immigration agents.

    we WILL have to make some space in some of the cushy white-collar prisons.

    a small price to pay, indeed.

    say offer –

    agree to abide by the majority on the issue – yea or nay?

  34. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Just for giggles, I went to Google and entered "tossing rocks at empty pigeon holes" in the search argument.

    I was shocked to find 27 hits.

    Then, I realized that one was the original EMR article from BaconsRebellion and the other 26 were various automatic blog feeds of that article.

    Being involved in a blog where a new language is being invented right before your eyes is inspirational. In fact, I know a way we can profit from this. Here is a link to an iPhone app which translates English into Klingon and visa versa:

    http://www.simonandschuster.com/w/klingonApps/content.html

    We can build and sell a BRiblish to English translator for the iPhone. It will have all of EMR's favorite words like Zentrum and Zigganught (sp?), LarryG's home spun phrases like "swallow a toad" and elements of Peter's chaotic liberalspeak. We might even be able to include some of RH's "fun with formulae" as entries.

    As for Groveton – no simple dictionary could translate his advanced multi-dimensional logic into anything anyone can understand.

    Well, it's dinner time. Hopefully, the Mrs has those toads on the barbie.

  35. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    I am laughing so hard that I have tears in my eyes. This blog is jut too funny.

    First, LarryG accuses me of being unrealistic and invites me to swallow a toad or two with him:

    "huff and puff and blow the house down… in your dreams…

    but actually dealing with the reality – on the ground – in terms of real solutions.. no dice…

    that's what I mean about swallowing toads.".

    Then LarryG proves his devotion to realism by challenging me to a "national referendum" on immigration:

    "I'm willing to do what a majority of Americans would favor doing.

    A national referenda.

    If it was their will to send everyone back – then I would support it..

    .. as long as YOU support – whatever the majority decides

    also…

    deal?".

    I think referenda is plural so maybe LarryG is going to settle all these pesky questions with his very realistic idea of a national referenda.

    You guys are just killing me today.

    Yes LarryG – I will support the results of the national referendum you plan on conducting. When will you start calling everybody in the country so we can get the results?

    I have to go. The tears of laughter are now streaming down my face and getting into the keyboard of my PC. SOON I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CONTROL CAPITALIZATION IF I DON'T LEAVE NOW.

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Boeing has spent a billion dollars on the fence and completed less than 40 miles. Even that has not been thoroughly tested. Current guess at completion is $3.5 billion, and that is probably a joke. $10 billion is probably more like it.

    Then add $1000 per person as the cost of deporting them.

    Then add in the cost of prosecuting the employers, and pretty soon you can see that for what it would cost to get rid of them, we could pay them to stay here and work.

    And that's just with government expenditures.

    RH

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "We can build and sell a BRiblish to English translator for the iPhone. It will have all of EMR's favorite words like Zentrum and Zigganught (sp?), LarryG's home spun phrases like "swallow a toad""

    Fabulous.

    That's the camel that burned he house down.

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    (CNN) — Political, religious and sexual behaviors may be reflections of intelligence, a new study finds.

    Evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa at the the London School of Economics and Political Science correlated data on these behaviors with IQ from a large national U.S. sample and found that, on average, people who identified as liberal and atheist had higher IQs. This applied also to sexual exclusivity in men, but not in women. The findings will be published in the March 2010 issue of Social Psychology Quarterly.

    The IQ differences, while statistically significant, are not stunning — on the order of 6 to 11 points — and the data should not be used to stereotype or make assumptions about people, experts say. But they show how certain patterns of identifying with particular ideologies develop, and how some people's behaviors come to be.

    Groveton, what was that you said about you can believe the study or not?

    This goes along with two other studies. A group of child behavioralists studied and ranked children on a number of factors (as part of a study on autism, I think). Certain of the children were characterized as having less fear than others.

    25 years later a different gorup discovered the earlier study and followed up on the children studied. Those characterized as being less fearful as children were more likely to be liberals as adults.

    Like Groveton said, you either believe the studies, or you don't.

    RH

  39. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    "toad swallowing" is simply a graphic phrase intended to convey the idea that in order for pragmatic solutions to be accepted – both sides must be willing to stop drawing lines in the sand and swallow something they really don't agree with.

    This is how "don't ask, don't tell" will be ultimately resolved.

    this is how you vote .. when you don't like either candidate but you feel the duty to exercise that right.

    I don't mind explaining my home spun phrases.

    I don't send folks to look up my past words or buy a CD or whatever.. you know…

  40. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    " you either believe the studies, or you don't."

    and if I ask five people here if they can bike or walk to a destination a couple or three miles from their home – and none of them can… then what?

    If you want to see if you REALLY can do it – go to GOGGLE Maps and pick your location and another ones 3 miles away and ask GOGGLE MAPS for a bike or pedestrian routing and take a look.

    There are essentially, few, very few trail or walking trails that actually CONNECT places to each other in the Washington Area.

    Most of them of within self-contained "recreation" facilities and corridors.

    You know.. you'd think this would be another one of those Conservative "market" solutions, eh?

  41. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    All in ALL, I PREFER market-based solutions because I am in full agreement that the govt command & control is more often than knot a CF at times..but

    .. let me ask.. how many times is a pure market-based "solution" actually a WORSE ClusterF_ ?

    what I get weary of is those who do't like the govt approach.. swear up and down that the market can do better and then bail……

    or present something that is not workable…

    or worse.. present something that ALSO REQUIRES the govt to implement it AND it's even more complicated and convoluted than the current approach – i.e. Command & Control on steroids.

    this is why I ask.. where the leaders are – for the market-based approaches to ….say drilling for oil in the Gulf.

    Do you want the oil drilling industry an the individual players to come up with a voluntary approach ?

    good luck.

    I'm open to ideas but not so much on ideology and theories.

  42. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    here's an interesting perspective on the home interest deduction:

    " Mapping the Mortgage Interest Deduction
    By CATHERINE RAMPELL

    Maryland residents are among the biggest beneficiaries of the mortgage interest deduction, according to a report released by the Tax Foundation."

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/mapping-the-mortgage-interest-deduction/

  43. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    I would submit that without the mortgage interest deduction that not only would we not have had the meltdown – but if the choice between buying and renting was more equal – that mobile workers might well be more inclined to live closer to work .. in more modest digs.. and more able to change their residence when their job changes.

    The house and it's mortgage were and are a potent 'anchor' for those who were sold on the idea of the "American Dream" of home ownership – as a better generator of personal wealth than other choices.

    I do wonder now that many have walked away from their underwater mortgages and many others are contemplating it.

    looking back.. how many sub-prime, no-doc, ninja borrowers would have been interested in borrowing if they could not write off the interest and sell the house for a profit over and above what they payed for it + interest?

    Talk about a moral hazard.

    I think home interest deductions were among the biggest moral hazards the government encouraged.

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Bikes and public transit will always be a small part of the transportation picture.

    Cars rock.

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    but if the choice between buying and renting was more equal –

    Jeez, Larry, That is why we HAVE the mortgage interest deduction: to make the choice between buying and renting more equal – so the landlords don't have an advantage over the self-owners.

    Without it, everyone would simply buy their neighbor's property and then rent it back to – in order to get the landlord mortgage interest deduction.

    The mortgage interest deduction has ZERO to do with the housing meltdown. there were lots of reasons for th emeltown, but the mortgage interest deduction is not a dicriminator: It plays the same rowl with or without a meltdown.

    RH

    RH

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Mr. Fleenor notes that some areas (like New York City) are dominating by renting, not buying, which affects whether there is any mortgage interest to deduct in the first place."

    Of COURSE there is interest to deduct, only it is deducted by the owner, not the renter, and it is deducted as a business expense, so it does not show up on the itemized dedtuctions the same as a private owner.

    The article also claims that the interest deduction is a tax loss, when in fact if it went away other taxes would have to be reduced to compensate for it. And if the mortgage interest deduction was removed, that is exactly what the Tax Institute would advocate: lower taxes acrosws the rest of the board.

    Net result: zilch.

    RH

    RH

  47. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    folks would not buy and rent to each other, I do not think.

    WE took away the interest deduction on cars for similar reason..

    Many of the sub-prime loans would never had been agreed to if the buyer did not have the ability to write off the interest because on many of those loans, there was virtually no principle – all interest.. so you get your money back and that then allows you to play "flip that house".

    Take the mortgage interest deduction away and people will then have to decide which of the two best suits their needs for "housing" and NOT wealth production.

    We wouldn't need to be worried about credit default swaps or toxic mortgage securities or mortgage-based derivatives.

    I think the mortgage interest deduction had EVERYTHING to do with the meltdown and I have more than a few economists on my side on this.

  48. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "folks would not buy and rent to each other, I do not think."

    Well, then you are a fool. That is exactly what would happen.

    I'd "buy" my brothers house and hw would "buy" mine. I'd send him a rent check he wouls send me a rent check and we would each deduct the interest as a business expense. Tax attoruneys would set these up in a heartbeat.

    Did you notice the sudden increase in care "Leases" when the interst deduction was removed? Same thing was happening. A "landlord" could borrow money and buy a bunch of cars. He would take the interest deduction and lease the cars out for less than an individual could buy them for.

    RH

  49. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If the buyer did not have the ability to write off the interest he wouldn't have enough free cash flow to buy the home, but that doesn't make any difference what equity the buyer has in the home, or whether the loan is prime or subprime.

    I can afford $1500 a month in housing costs. Whether I buy a $400 k house with zero down, a $500k house with 20% down, or a $600,000 house with %200k down I'm still borrowing $400k and the mortgage interest dedcution has the same value to me in either case.

    It is not a discriminator. The guy wth zero down against $400k might be more likely to default, but not because of the mortgage interest deduction.

    RH

  50. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    It won't happen. There are two many things that can go wrong with such an arrangement.

    the whole point is that people are able to move to go to a new job if it was advantageous to do so.

    the scam would be recognized for what it would be – much like someone who claims they are a business so they can write their "expenses" off and their expenses exceed their investment.

  51. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    you don't need to have a cash flow if your goal is to flip the house to start with..and make a profit on that transaction.

    Then with that "seed" money, you do it again.. this time with two houses.. and so on and so forth.

  52. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    Guess what? They may well cut the mortgage interest deduction. There's been talk of it. If you gave people the choice between a VAT and cutting out these legalized tax scams.. people might choose to cut the scams.

  53. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    you don't need to have a cash flow if your goal is to flip the house to start with..and make a profit on that transaction.

    Now that you see I'm right you are changing the subject. Anyway, as my exaple shows, youcannot buy ANY house regardless of your goals without the cash flow to hold on to it.

    Mortgage interest deduction is not the discriminator and not a contributor to the housing slump.

    If you have someone trying to prove to you that water boils a 250 degrees, that person is not a scientist.

    If you have someone trying to convince you that MID cuased the housing slump, that person is not an economist – he is a politician.

    An economist might argue that ALL tax dedcutions amount to subsidies and are therefore bad, but that is a different argument that saying they caused the housing slump.

    I know your mind is made up, but my analysis would be different.

    I'd start with the rating agencies who were clearly engaging in fraud, along with the banks that brought them questionable mortgage tranches, and twisted their arms for good ratings.

    Spreading the risk in mortgage backed securities was a good idea, as long as the risk was known, and the securities were tied to the mortgages.

    Second and third tier derivatives ruined that, and suddenly diffuse risk was synonyous with unknown risk.

    But those markets made it easy to resell mortgages, and that lowered the standards for accepting who could get them.

    The same thing would have happened regardless of what percentage of our mortgage interest was deductible.

    It is not a discriminator.

    In my example above,the borrower is taking the same cash flow risk in each case. He could lose the home in each case.

    But the LENDER is taking less risk in the high downpayment case, and he could care less about the mortgage deduction. All he is looking at is does the guy have enough left to eat and make his other payments.

    RH

  54. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    the whole point is that people are able to move to go to a new job if it was advantageous to do so.

    the scam would be recognized for what it would be – much like someone who claims they are a business so they can write their "expenses" off and their expenses exceed their investment."

    you really are naive.

    You can write off business exenses that exceed your business income.

    Amazon has done it for years.

    You need to show a profit occasionally or a move in that direction, and you have to show sincere effort at improving the business.

    But the example I gave is no scam. Assume they are similar houses in a subdivision. Basically the same price and the same expenses. It is no different thann any other landlord situation, except for the reciprocity.

    If someone wants to move, you just change the sublease. it would be easier and faster than moving is now. There would be tranches of homes for rent partnerships and you could buy in to the cash flow like a REIT.

    Then there would be derivatives on groups of partnerships, and soon you couldn;t tell which ones wer paying the rent and which ones not.

    Same problem as we just had, and nothing to do with the mortgage interest deduction.

    RH

  55. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    It won't happen. There are two many things that can go wrong with such an arrangement.

    it happens now. It is called being a landlord.

    that lord part didn't get there by accident and the mortgage interest dedustion was to make the lords and leapers more equal.

  56. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    " A wide range of economists have long found fault with the deduction. Here are a few of the reasons:

    Problem #1: Subsidizing interest payments encourages people to leverage themselves to the hilt to bet on housing markets. The size of the tax benefit is proportional to your debt. The deduction essentially encourages us to make leveraged bets on the swings of the housing market. That leverage means that housing price swings can easily wipe people out. We are currently experiencing the consequences of subsidizing gambles on housing.

    Problem #2: The deduction pushes up prices in places where the supply of new homes is constrained, as it is in many coastal markets. Economics 101 teaches us that if we subsidize demand where supply is inelastic then the only effect is to make prices go up. Housing supply is pretty constrained in places like New York City because of land-use restrictions and lack of land. In these places, the deduction doesn’t make housing more affordable. It just transfers money from buyers to sellers, and that makes little sense.

    Problem #3: The deduction is wildly regressive. The tax savings for households earning more than $250,000 is 10 times the tax savings for households earning between $40,000 and $75,000 a year, according to recent research by James Poterba and Todd Sinai."

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/killing-or-maiming-a-sacred-cow-home-mortgage-deductions/

  57. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    "and if I ask five people here if they can bike or walk to a destination a couple or three miles from their home – and none of them can… then what?".

    Then what?

    Then you have a sample which is not statistically significant and that sample tells you nothing.

    If I flip a coin three times and get heads each time may I assume that the coin has no tails?

  58. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    "25 years later a different gorup discovered the earlier study and followed up on the children studied. Those characterized as being less fearful as children were more likely to be liberals as adults.".

    There is a fine line between lacking fear and possessing stupidity.

  59. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Subsidizing interest payments encourages people to leverage themselves to the hilt to bet on housing markets.

    Not true, as the example above shows. You can only make the payment you can make, regardles of whether the interest is deductible. If the interest is deductible you get some of the payment back at the end of the year.

    That being the case, your risk as a buyer depends on how much you think you can [successfully] cut other expenses and still make your payment. And that is true regardless of how much downpayment you put in (how much leverage).

    Subsidizing the mortgage rate has NOTHING to do with how much leverage you take.

    ===============================

    The size of the tax benefit is proportional to your debt

    So wealthy people buying bigger homes [or just more expensive ones] get a bigger benefit. These are teh SAME people that also pay higher taxes on account of their income.

    The argument is a wash, but it is insidious because of the false implication it makes.

    MD and CA are states with highly regulated housing markets, and therefore more expensive (but not more valuable) homes. People in MD and CA get large tax benefits relative to other states because the houses are more expensive. They also have high foreclosure rates because the homes are more expensive but not more valuable.

    I shouldn't have to explain this: you could look it up if you weren't so willing to be brainwashed by politically motivated economists.

    ============================

    Many of the sub-prime loans would never had been agreed to if the buyer did not have the ability to write off the interest because on many of those loans, there was virtually no principle – all interest.. so you get your money back and that then allows you to play "flip that house".

    Hogwash. The loans would not have been agreed to because with out the interest deduction those folks wouldn't have enough free cash flow to eat. that makes for a risly loan no matter how much down payment or how much leverage.

    Interest dedcution and reason for leverage are not related in any way – period.

    =============================

    That leverage means that housing price swings can easily wipe people out.

    Nonsense. My home(s) have taken huge swings, like everyone else. that has not wiped me out.

    But, I still earn enough income to make my payment. When I lose that, I will be wiped out, regardless of the value of the house at that time.

    Leverage works both ways, it also means that if you put $10,000 down on a $100,000 home that oges up in value $10,000, then you doubled your (hard cash) investment.

    You will have doubled that money (on paper) regardles of the mortgage interest deduction. If it goes down $10k you have lost that money (on paper) regardless of the interest deduction.

    But, as long as you can make the payment you still have a place to live. This argument is flawed because it doesn't consider the alternative(s).

    Suppose the lack of interest deducton means you have to rent. You still have to put your $10k down payment someplace – AIG looks pretty good……..

    And now you ar paying rent and you Landlort gets the interest deduction – and you can BET the HE is leveraged to the hilt.

    ==============================

    The deduction pushes up prices in places where the supply of new homes is constrained,…

    But you previously argued that restrictive building codes DON'T drive up the price of homes.

    If the supply is constrained it is not because of the intereste deduction.

    C'mon Larry, this is TOTALLY bogus.

    Home ownership makes for stable neighborhoods and it is appropriate for government to invest in that to the extent it lowers its other governance costs.

    RH

  60. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    There is a fine line between lacking fear and possessing stupidity.

    Yep, and risk and reward are related.

    Smarter people are more likely to manage the risk and gain the reward. Over time, natural selection leads to smarter people being successful risk takers or what we otherwise describe as "liberals".

    The studies suggest that sending liberals from the US won't raise the average IQ here, as you suggest.

    What I don't get is how that raises the IQ in France. I always thought of France as highly conservative. If the studies are correct and I'm correct, the sending liberals there would raise the IQ. But if I'm wrong (France is Liberal) and the studies are correct then it won't raise the IQ.

    Either way I dont' see how you move one group and raise the average of both populatons.

    ==============================

    Larry, Groveton is right with his coin flipping analogy. you can't "prove" anything with the approach you took.

    What you can do is write down all the pertinent data from severbl thousand Zillow pages, including the house and lot descrptive data, price and walkability. Maybe you have twenty variables recorded for each house, including the walkability index.

    Then do a multivariate analysis to see if the walkability index is statistically significant.

    RH

  61. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    We did an amnesty once and it was a total failure.

    Not for those who were able to take advantage of it. To make this statement you would have to look at the whole system, before and after amnesty. Whether the US and those amnestized were better off in sum.

    The only thing we know for sure is that we did no better job of preventing new foreigners after amnesty than we did before, but that doesn't say that amnesty istelf was a failure. seems to me a different topic entirely.

    RH

  62. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    New orders for durable manufactured goods in April reached the highest level ($193.9 billion) since September 2008 .

    More doom and gloom. We are going to perisch from prosperity if people keep buying stuff to fill up their pigeon holes.

    RH

  63. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/Debt-GDP/US-National-Debt-Visualization?:embed=yes&:toolbar=yes

    Shows the increase in public debt as related to the party in power.

    This should make Groveton feel better about that IQ thing.

    RH

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