Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

The War of Words over Robert E. Lee

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

A Conversation with Ty Seidule

from Washington and Lee News on Vimeo.

Washington & Lee University recently hosted a video presentation by Ty Seidule, author of “Robert E. Lee and Me: A Southerner’s Reckoning with the Myth of the Lost Cause.” Seidule grew up in Alexandria, where he says he was raised to think of Lee as a god. He certainly doesn’t anymore. In a nutshell, he argues in his book, the No. 1 best seller in Amazon’s books on the history of the Confederacy, that Lee was a traitor to the United States who fought to defend slavery. 

Neely Young and Alfred Eckes present their defense of Lee in a shorter video produced by The Generals Redoubt, a group of W&L alumni dedicated to preserving the Lee name and heritage.

I doubt many people will change their minds. Most viewers will to stake out a position based on their preconceived notions. But both videos are interesting. Seidule provides an account of one man’s journey to wokeness. Young and Eckes do a spirited job of defending Lee: explaining, among other points, the complexities under the laws of 1860 that made it difficult to free slaves, as Lee wished to do, and also why many northerners considered him a hero for his role in reconciling north and south after the Civil War.

I have my prejudices. Although Lee fought for the wrong side, he was a great man whose character and contributions to this country are worth honoring. The idea that he was a “traitor” is based on historical ignorance. The federal government and the states shared co-equal sovereignty; states were not administrative units of the nation as they are today. Abraham Lincoln rallied the north to save the “union” — the union of semi-sovereign states — not a unitary nation state. Lee, like many others, was conflicted over where he owed his primary allegiance.

Still, debates like these are what make the study of history so intriguing.

— JAB

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31 responses to “The War of Words over Robert E. Lee”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    One of the respondents to BR stated that history will never be wiped out but veneration of history – is not history.

    So I wonder how many folks on both sides agree that we’re talking about veneration of history and not history itself?

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Everyone looks back on history with a present-day lens, either to venerate or criticize. No escaping it. That’s the way it always has been, and always will.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        But “history” will ALWAYS be there. Anyone can get access to all the “history” they want.

        But do we have to venerate it?

        is that something we must do even if not everyone wants to venerate it – only some?

        You can venerate – but is it a public or private activity?

        1. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          Well, maybe, Larry, but there are those who would 1) wipe it off even research sites like Wiki, 2) keep it from being taught even in history classes, and 3) keep the books off library and bookstore shelves. I had a used book store owner say he wouldn’t stock Civil War history because angry Woke customers were triggered just by seeing it on the shelves!

          Didn’t watch the video. Venerating Lee as a perfect icon is foolish, requires a blind eye….but knowing and understanding the history of that period is vital, and he was a key player just like his wife’s ancestor ‘ol GW. Erasing him from memory would be criminal.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            hard to wipe it all out – impossible and I don’t see even the most zealot calling for burning books and wiping out electronic data, so that’s just more boggeyman stuff.

            Where or not a PRIVATE person or business chooses to stock something or not is NOT “wiping stuff out” EITHER.

            The business has a right to serve the client it wishes to serve.

            This goes back to those who really want to venerate the history they revere and actually impose it on others by insisting it be in a public place or spaces or in education that is imposed – and yes I know this last part will get you guys riled up!

            but overall – “history” is what was documented and not necessarily the documented history that YOU want to focus on as important to YOU and especially so when others find that veneration to be offensive and repugnant. They don’t necessarily want to HEAR or see memorialized the the history you like.

        2. William O'Keefe Avatar
          William O’Keefe

          I don’t know what you mean by venerate history. I do know that too many are too lazy to actually study history, including the context of historical events and people. Understanding history or Robert E Lee is hard work. In Lee’s case, the Woke/Cancel crowd are ignorant and don’t want to be informed.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            History is forever. But venerating history means focuses on some particular history that you find important and worth noting – while others may not.

            For instance, white supremacists will venerate Hitler but do you want their focus on history to be imposed on you by memorials or other things placed in pblic spaces?

            WOKE ignorance – is true (and so is non-woke) but that’s THEIR CHOICE – you do not get to impose on them what you think proper history is or use public spaces to do that.

          2. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Equating a statue of Lee with one of Hitler is more than absurd. The context surrounding the two men is beyond comparison. Instead of venerate, you mean honor since venerate is honoring at a higher level.
            Are you trying to make comments about just Civil War figures or something broader?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Bill – do you think Black African American “venerate” or “honor” Lee or other Confederacy? Do you think they might view it as their “Hitler”?

          4. KevinR. Avatar
            KevinR.

            No. Or if they do, it is wrong and there is far more to look at.

            Far too many ‘woke’ want to remove all history by claiming it is offensive to them.

            While slavery was an evil institution, it was at that time a legal institution. Lee, as many of his era, identified with his home state and did agonize over the choice but did ultimately choose to follow his state.

            That is different than Hitler.

            Once you remove Lee, Thomas Jackson, will the next target be George Washington and Thomas Jefferson… indeed it is and already has happened.

            It must be remembered, black Africans sold black Africans into slavery and there were black slave owners.
            It must also be remembered there were white slaves, in Rome, Northern Africa and Europe.

            Trying to take only part, and remove that which does not fit your narrative, does in fact alter history as it all must be viewed to gain insight.

          5. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Larry, either you choose to be obtuse or you have no appreciation for the importance of context. Hense, there is no point in engaging with you which I intend to stop.

          6. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            The former, in my long experience….

          7. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            “…you do not get to impose on them what you think proper history is or use public spaces to do that.”

            Neither do you.

    2. KevinR. Avatar
      KevinR.

      We must know our history, where we came from, to know where we are going.
      We must learn from history.

      That is not ‘veneration’.

    3. KevinR. Avatar
      KevinR.

      We must know our history, where we came from, to know where we are going.
      We must learn from history.

      That is not ‘veneration’.

  2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    I have General Seidule’s book and have read it a couple of times now. I attempted to reach out to Seidule and share my views. He never responded but here is what I wrote. Apologies for it is a bit long winded.

    Greetings General Seidule,

    I want to extend my congratulations to your new book on General Robert E. Lee. It appears to be well received by many. I have a copy of the book and after my review I was instantly reminded of Alan T. Nolan’s book “Lee Reconsidered”. I found your facts to be true but I was not convinced by your arguments on General Lee. I think you judge him to harshly. The analysis failed to convince me that Lee’s flaws and his larger impression on culture outweigh a life of purpose and duty. Lee was truly George Washington without the reward. You must forgive me General Seidule. Lee is a distant kinsmen of mine. 36 of my ancestors were in the Army of Northern Virginia. I too, like you. Born and raised to revere Robert E. Lee. After a lifetime of study I have come to a very different conclusion than yours on Robert E. Lee, the man, and his meaning to American history. As a southerner, our southern history is replete with concepts and principles that are in conflict, yet in the most imperfect way these concepts and principles coexist. Sometimes for the better, often times for the worse. If you look around our nation today you see the same thing happening all over again. Ideas in conflict yet coexisting. If slavery was the national sin we coexisted with for 94 years than what is abortion in our current times? One of these days I might try and write a book to explain more fully the complex social concepts of southern culture in the prism of conflict and coexistence.

    You know General Seidule, my namesake was in the 53rd Virginia at Gettysburg. He was with General Armistead and Colonel Rawley White Martin during Pickett’s Charge. J.W. Whitehead was in the very crucible of the forging of modern America. He was badly wounded, captured, and was a POW at Johnson’s Island. He survived to lead a life of purpose in Chatham, Virginia. A very successful businessman, father of 7, master Mason, and a life long member of Chatham Baptist Church. Back in the 1990s I knew some very old people in Chatham who heard the stories of Gettysburg from my namesake as small children. H was very proud of his Confederate service and was present for the dedication of the Confederate monument at the Pittsylvania County Courthouse in 1904. He never broke his Oath of Allegiance taken in June of 1865 at Point Lookout.
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/23730988/james-wyatt-whitehead

    You know my 3rd great grandfather John Kennon Lockett fought with his brother Philip Lockett at Gettysburg in the 14th Virginia Infantry. Somehow John Kennon made it back from the “angle” in Pickett’s Charge. Philip was wounded and captured at Cushing’s battery. Exchanged Philip fought on at Bermuda Hundred, Five Forks, and Saylors Creek. John Kennon and Philip surrendered together at Appomattox. Not many brothers can make that claim. 4 years later John Kennon met President Grant at the White House. JK presented his calling card to the White House butler and an interview was permitted. Grant and Lockett spoke about Appomattox in their brief encounter.
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/14351197/john-kennon-lockett

    Now Philip Lockett was something else. Expelled from Randolph Macon College for writing a scathing article about Lincoln’s election in 1860. After Appomattox Philip became a lawyer and was well known for defending freed slaves in court for no charge. He adopted an orphaned black child, Sadie, and raised her as his own daughter. He was a Republican who registered thousands of freed slaves to vote. A founding father of Roanoke, Virginia. Died poor and penniless. No tombstone either. I fixed that. I located his grave and made a tombstone from scratch for him.
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/137312662/philip-lockett

    Philip and John Kennon’s sister, Myrta Lockett Avary dedicated her best selling book “Dixie After the War” to her brothers. Myrta was a pioneer in Southern Women’s Literature. Her books include a “Virginia Girl During the Civil War”, 1st edition of Mary Chestnutt’s Diary, edited the Autobiography of Alexander Stephens, and quite a poet. Myrta was credited by Margaret Mitchell for the inspiration to write “Gone With The Wind”. They are buried in adjacent plots in Atlanta. She died on Valentines Day in 1946, My father met her as a young boy.
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/112785948/myrta-lockett-avary

    Oh I could go on for a good while General Seidule. I could tell you about my 3rd great grandfather Marcus Mills, who grabbed the reigns of Traveller to prevent Lee from leading the counterattack into the broken lines of the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. I could tell you about Mary Clay Lockett, who sewed together the 1st national flag of the Confederacy and presented it to Jefferson Davis at his inauguration. I could tell you about my 3rd great grandfather Mortimer Hawkins, drafted man who was beside Jeb Stuart when he was mortally wounded at Yellow Tavern. I don’t want to forget my 4th great grandfather Judge William Marshall Tredway who signed the Ordinance of Secession from Virginia. There were 3 votes you know. He voted no twice. The 75,000 volunteers proclamation from Lincoln changed everything for Tredway. The same is true for Robert E. Lee. That was the deal breaker. The most tragic family figure is 3rd great grand uncle Thomas Booker Tredway. This 17 year old VMI cadet and private in the 53rd was also in Pickett’s Charge. At Cushing’s guns Tredway threw his body in front of bullet meant for Lt. Colonel Rawley White Martin. Tredway was gone. But Martin lived on to become a leading physician in Lynchburg and a major figure in creating the Medical College of Virginia.
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11598965/thomas-booker-tredway

    I cannot run and I don’t want to hide either from this rich family history of Confederates. I am comfortable with their place in history. From what I have discovered, those who survived lived a life of purpose and become pillars of their communities. I love Shakespeare. The flawed tragic heroes of 150 years ago are no different from you and I. We all have our part to play in the great drama of life.

    I believe Robert E. Lee’s legacy will endure. He certainly hasn’t had this kind of attention in a long time. I am confident that his story will continue to serve as a point of instruction for generations to come. It will be up to the individual to determine the meaning of his legacy and reputation. That is fair and I will be there to make sure that the other side of the coin is presented with the passion and reverence I have for this great Virginian.

    Congratulations General Seidule! I hope your book continues to sell and draw attention to Robert E. Lee. I believe the attention will ultimately serve a good purpose. I have included a copy of Lt. Whitehead’s 1908 recollection of Pickett’s Charge. It is a good read and being a history man I know you will enjoy. Do take care to notice the stationary. Whitehead’s telephone number was 14! Wishing you all the best. I am,

    Yours in service,

    James Wyatt Whitehead V
    Warrenton, VA

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I wish I new 1/100th as much about my family as you know about yours.

  3. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    So I tried the video. Within a minute it was clear they were going to gloss over or seek to excuse 1) Lee’s management of the Arlington slaves and the order to free them that he resisted and 2) that the Confederacy was founded to maintain slavery. Two well-educated profs proving once again that human self delusion is commonplace. Debates like that are what makes history interesting but I stopped watching, I admit. Been there, done that.

    That said, whether the name of the school remains is none of my business either way. He was president of the school, saved it from disappearing and openly sought to reunite the torn nation. Those were admirable acts. But he led a failed military rebellion and the losers of those get called traitors (not the winners, it seems). Evidence claimed that he opposed slavery doesn’t hold up.

  4. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    So I tried the video. Within a minute it was clear they were going to gloss over or seek to excuse 1) Lee’s management of the Arlington slaves and the order to free them that he resisted and 2) that the Confederacy was founded to maintain slavery. Two well-educated profs proving once again that human self delusion is commonplace. Debates like that are what makes history interesting but I stopped watching, I admit. Been there, done that.

    That said, whether the name of the school remains is none of my business either way. He was president of the school, saved it from disappearing and openly sought to reunite the torn nation. Those were admirable acts. But he led a failed military rebellion and the losers of those get called traitors (not the winners, it seems). Evidence claimed that he opposed slavery doesn’t hold up.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      If the woke warriors lose the culture war, do we get to call them traitors? Can I rub their noses in defeat, lies, and deception?

    2. KevinR. Avatar
      KevinR.

      Yet, evidence that he did oppose slavery is factual and evidence he agonized over the decision to remain in the United States or follow his beloved home state is factual, and at the time….many people identified with their home state first.

      It seems you wish to remove much of the context of the time to only present a biased edited version.

      Do you also hold the black slave owners in the same contempt you hold Lee and others who chose to follow their states (some were pro slavery and others were not.. there were a complex set of issues that led to the war including slavery) There were black slave owners, and if we look at history, there were also white slaves.

      You stopped watching because anything that suggests something different than what you want to believe is to be ‘canceled’.

      Our founding fathers were considered traitors, to Great Britain, yet today, you do not see those in Britain being ‘triggered’ by Washington or Jefferson. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States (again, the era… the state came first, the nation second in many people’s views whether right or wrong), but he was also granted a pardon as were most on the Southern side and they were declared American veterans by an act of Congress.

  5. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    Seidule gets 88 minutes to assault the character of Marse Robert and Lee’s bumbling 2 defending professors get 18 minutes. Let me balance those scales just a bit. Here you can find the unabridged audio version of R.E. Lee by D.S. Freeman. 30 day trial and absolutely free. If you want the hardcover print version be prepared to pay up to a 1,000 dollars for a clean copy. 1,600 dollars for a signed copy. 4 volumes, 2,200 pages or 96 hours of audio time will fly by faster than you think. Seidule’s book is a mere 15 bucks for 250 pages that uncovers nothing new. Seidule’s book is heading to the discount shelf in less than a year just like Alan T. Nolan’s “Lee Considered” from the 1990s, which now sells for 3 bucks. 100 years from now Americans will still be talking about Lee and marveling at the scholarship of Freeman. No one will remember Ty Seidule’s 250 page cancel culture hit piece.
    https://www.amazon.com/R-E-Lee-Volume-One/dp/B0785RX6DB

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Freeman’s were among the books I could not persuade the book dealer to take…..Sadly the chance any of my grandkids will read them is slim. If I can get them to read anything, I’ll start with Catton or Foote.

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Freeman’s were among the books I could not persuade the book dealer to take…..Sadly the chance any of my grandkids will read them is slim. If I can get them to read anything, I’ll start with Catton or Foote.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        Inscribe a personal message to your grandkids and your unborn great grandkids on the inside cover and pass on the books to the next generation.

    3. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “If you want the hardcover print version be prepared to pay up to a 1,000 dollars for a clean copy.”

      That much? It seems to have appreciated in value quite a bit. I bought a used set (gray, faux-leather binding) in VG condition about 25 years ago for $75.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        First edition books signed by the author, fine book collectors will pay this price. They are worse than doll collectors!

  6. KevinR. Avatar
    KevinR.

    Robert E. Lee, did indeed fight on the wrong side and was indeed a traitor to the United States, just as George Washington and our founding fathers were traitors to Great Britain.

    The context of the times however, must be considered. Many of that era identified with their state first. So there were Ohioans, Virginians, New Yorkers, and Robert E. Lee did agonize over the decision but ultimately chose to follow his beloved Virginia.

    Considering the context of the times, he does not lose his distinction of being an honorable man and a great General.

    Far too many want to put modern views and understandings onto those of past eras… .just as they like to attempt to put modern definitions and usages of words onto those used in the past, and particularly in older laws and the Constitution and those modern usages alter the meaning and understanding of the law.

    As a Virginian, I was not taught Lee was a God, so not sure where Ty Seidule was actually taught that, but I was taught he was an honorable man and a great general, and one we could respect even if there was disagreement about his choices. There is far too much effort today to rewrite history and put modern understanding and prejudice onto those in the past and determine their actions and beliefs based on our modern viewpoints and thinking and that establishes a false narrative and misconception of history.

    It was a more complex issue, just as slavery was a complex issue.

    The fact slavery, while an evil institution, was a legal institution at the time must be considered. There were black African tribes that captured and sold black Africans into slavery, and there were black slave owners including Anthony Johnson and William Ellison. It is far too complex an issue to whittle it down to just ‘the South is racist and the North is not’. That simplification is wrong, just as much as some of the criticisms about Lee are wrong, though some are correct.

    Just a point of view.

  7. tmtfairfax Avatar
    tmtfairfax

    The United States constructed and operates the Holocaust Museum. One of the reasons for these actions is to teach future generations what happened not only to remember those involved but also to educate in the hope that humanity will never tolerate a similar event.

    The Battleship Arizona Memorial sends a similar message. It was a very powerful experience when I was at the Memorial, standing respectfully with Americans, Japanese and people from other nations. I felt a shared sense of humanity and hoped that we do find the “better angels of our nature.” I sensed that I was not alone.

    If we cancel our history, we will be doomed to repeat it.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I don’t think Lee or the Confederacy are folks that African Americans venerate – no matter who else might have owned slaves or who made their ancestors slaves – there still is no fine thoughts on their part towards Lee and similar.

    The question is – for those of us who do venerate historical figures – do we acknowledge that others may not venerate like we do and HOW we need venerate either just for ourselves or do we need to also have our heroes in public spaces even if others may not hold them in similar high esteem or maybe find their presence in public spaces offensive and insulting?

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      At least I don’t venerate indecipherable run-on sentences.

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