The Statues Will Come Down… and the Revolution Will Roll On

by James A. Bacon

So, the Lee statue on Richmond’s Monument Avenue is coming down, and, most likely, so will the rest of the other statues honoring Confederate generals and leaders. Governor Ralph Northam will announce today plans to remove the equestrian statue of Lee, reports the Richmond Times-Dispatch, and Mayor Levar Stoney has said he wants the other four Confederate statues gone. The General Assembly undoubtedly will enact whatever enabling legislation is required. There is no organized force to oppose the removals.

The politics of symbolism has won. Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. Protesters will simply move on to the next target. Surely, statues of Thomas Jefferson and other slave holders are next. There is no limit to the demands of those seeking a radical Leftist version of racial justice because Leftists see America and all of its institutions as systemically racist, conceived in the original sin of slavery.

The wellsprings of anger and frustration are bottomless. The Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Henninger has articulated why that is so.

Since the 1960 essentially little has changed in the neighborhoods at the center of those long-ago urban riots. By current telling, they are about as poor, as crime-ridden as under-educated and in poor health as they were when LBJ said he would change them. That means five decades of stasis and stagnation in America’s most marginalized places, virtually all of it under Democratic — now “progressive’ — political control.

The failure of the liberal model is by now so embarrassing that the current owners of that model have created an alternative universe of explanation, such as blaming it on American settlers in the early 18th century or the non-existence of “justice.”

The Great Society welfare state is a well-intentioned failure. Liberal social engineering is a well-intentioned failure. Of course, the architects of that system cannot admit their complicity, so they have doubled down on an explanation that exonerates them and shifts the blame to others. The problem, they now say, is systemic structural racism. The establishment media has reinforced that message by cherry picking horrific but isolated events such as the George Floyd killing and the Ahmaud Arbery slaying and representing them as the norm in a country of 330 million people, thereby bringing emotions to a boil. I could repeat the statistics debunking that narrative, as I have in previous posts, but it would be pointless to do so. Antiseptic data don’t matter, I have been scolded. Peoples’ feelings matter.

I am not a Pollyanna. I know that racism still exists (although by any measure it is less prevalent than ever). I know that some of our institutions are flawed. But I reject the idea that America is an irredeemably racist nation. I believe we can make America more equitable and more just by enacting carefully considered reforms of our institutions. But undertaking that effort starts with understanding what the real problems are — understanding why our inner-city schools are failing, why higher-ed is so unaffordable and inaccessible, why healthcare is unaffordable and inaccessible to so many, and why housing is so unaffordable and inaccessible. In each and every case, government failure is the root of the problem. Solving those problems requires new solutions, not more of the same.

Building a more just and equitable American also requires that we acknowledge that there are limits to what government can do (even when government gets it right). There is an inextricable connection between family breakdown, social dysfunction, and the perpetuation of poverty. At some point, people need to feel empowered to take control of their own destinies. Telling people that they are helpless victims of ubiquitous racism is not the way to instill hope and the motivation to overcome adversity and improve one’s condition in life.

Confederate statues don’t create single-parent households. Confederate statues don’t get inner-city mothers hooked on crack. Confederate statues don’t kill people in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create leaky roofs and leave rat feces in inner-city schools. Confederate statues don’t kill children in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create unlivable, crime-ridden public housing projects. Confederate statues don’t create housing scarcity and evict renters from their homes. Confederate statues don’t create obesity, diabetes and heart disease.

So, Governor Northam and Mayor Stoney, by all means appease the Leftist mob. Take the statues down. Just don’t pretend you’re making Virginia any more equitable and just.


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179 responses to “The Statues Will Come Down… and the Revolution Will Roll On”

  1. kls59 Avatar

    Oh, and we must change the state’s name as Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen promoted and profited from the slave trade.

  2. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Surprised it took this long. Lee himself hated the idea of such iconography. As I said in 2017, if he could move he would have come down on his own.

    And I didn’t talk about feelings yesterday, Jim, but beliefs. Perceptions. In politics, perceptions are reality.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      And, for the very reason as has been shown true.

      “Let’s honor his memory by dishonoring his wishes.”

    2. Acbar Avatar

      I believe that Lee, had he lived into the 1890s instead of dying only five years after the War ended, in 1870, would have joined the Republican Party, along with Longstreet, to move Virginia forward into the war-wearied years of repair and reform that brought public education and public health and agricultural reform to Virginia — to make the most of the moment, as he demonstrated at Washington College (later W&L), not backwards into the dark maw of the Lost Cause so ably (and self-servingly) promoted by Jubal Early.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Acbar says:

        I believe that Lee, had he lived into the 1890s instead of dying only five years after the War ended, in 1870, would have joined the Republican Party, along with Longstreet, to move Virginia forward into the war-wearied years of repair and reform that brought public education and public health and agricultural reform to Virginia — to make the most of the moment, as he demonstrated at Washington College (later W&L), not backwards into the dark maw of the Lost Cause so ably (and self-servingly) promoted by Jubal Early.” END Quote.

        Likely that too would have been the view of Civil War scholar James Robertson. He believed that only Robert E. Lee, in the great vacuum of national leadership after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, was able by his reputation to hold the nation together, a shattered nation that otherwise would have descended into a history pf chronic anarchy driven by guerrilla wars led by the likes of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

        James Robertson knew his subject. This from his obituary.

        “History is the greatest teacher you will ever have,” James I. “Bud” Robertson Jr. often told his students. If history is the greatest teacher, many of them might have argued, then he was the second greatest.

        Robertson, Alumni Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at Virginia Tech, died on Nov. 2 after a long illness. He was 89 years old.

        Robertson used vivid stories to bring the American Civil War to life not just for generations of Virginia Tech students, but also for millions across the world through his award-winning books, frequent television appearances, popular radio essays, and passionate advocacy of history.

        Dr. Bud, as he liked to be called, grew up poor near the train tracks in Danville, Virginia, with dreams of becoming a railroad engineer. Yet when he asked for a railroad job at the age of 17, the yardmaster, who knew him well, told him to go to college first. The rest is literally history.

        Robertson went on to earn a bachelor’s in history from Randolph-Macon College and a master’s degree and doctorate, also in history, from Emory University.

        During the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, President John F. Kennedy asked Robertson to serve as executive director of the United States Civil War Centennial Commission. At the time, the committee was foundering under the pressure of both the emerging civil rights movement and regional differences. Robertson used his diplomatic talents to shepherd 34 state and 100 local centennial committees into organizing a successful and dignified commemoration.

        In 1967, Robertson joined the faculty of Virginia Tech, where his course on the Civil War attracted an average of 300 students each semester and became the largest class of its kind in the nation. During his 44 years at the university, he taught more than 25,000 Virginia Tech students. In several instances, he ended up teaching three generations of the same families.

        Robertson held the C. P. “Sally” Miles Professorship at Virginia Tech from 1976 until his appointment in 1992 as Alumni Distinguished Professor, a preeminent appointment reserved for recognition of faculty members who demonstrate extraordinary accomplishments and academic citizenship.

        In 1999, Robertson became founding director of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies. From its home in the Virginia Tech Department of History, the center educates scholars and the public about the causes and consequences of one of the nation’s most momentous conflicts. The center’s annual Civil War Weekend is just one of the ongoing, vibrant programs that Robertson established.

        The consummate teacher was also a celebrated author and editor, with more than 40 books on the Civil War to his credit. One of those works was based on another of Robertson’s boyhood passions — General Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson. The book, considered a definitive biography, won eight national awards and became a key source for a 2003 movie, “Gods and Generals,” for which Robertson served as chief historical consultant.

        “For fully six decades Bud Robertson was a dominant figure in his field, and a great encouragement to all who would study our turbulent past during the middle of the 19th century,” said William C. “Jack” Davis, former director of the center and himself the author or editor of more than 50 books on the Civil War and the history of the South. “Moreover, amid a conversation that can still become bitter and confrontational, his was a voice for reason, patience, and understanding. In the offing, he has become virtually ‘Mr. Virginia,’ a spokesperson for the commonwealth past, present, and future. His voice is now sorely missed — and irreplaceable.”

        Virginia Tech honored Robertson with emeritus status soon after his retirement in 2011. At the same time, during the commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the war, Robertson served as an executive committee member of the Virginia Sesquicentennial of the American Civil War Commission. He also served as executive producer of “Virginia in the Civil War: A Sesquicentennial Remembrance,” a complimentary DVD provided to every school and library in the commonwealth.

        “The next generations must have a knowledge of the past,” Robertson said. “If you do not know where you have been, you have no idea where you should go.”

        A lecturer of national acclaim, Robertson also delivered more than 350 radio essays that aired weekly for nearly 15 years on National Public Radio affiliates as far away as Alaska. Those broadcasts featured the stories of the men, women, children, and even animals who endured the heartbreak of the Civil War.

        “If you don’t understand the emotion of the war,” he would say, “you’ll never understand the war.”

        Under Robertson’s championship, in 2015 the Commonwealth of Virginia adopted “Our Great Virginia,” based on the folk song “Oh, Shenandoah,” as the traditional state song.

        “Virginia is the Mother State,” he said. “It should be the leader in all facets of the Republic. This makes the absence of a state song glaring. The physical beauty and incomparable history of Virginia need to be transformed as well into the emotions of music. ‘Our Great Virginia’ fulfills that need.”

        Robertson received numerous prestigious honors, including three commendations from the Virginia General Assembly; the Virginius Dabney Award, the highest recognition given by the Museum of the Confederacy; the Virginia Press Association’s 2004 Virginian of the Year; the Best Non-Fiction Book Award by the Library of Virginia in 1997; and the Outstanding Professor Award of the Virginia Council for Higher Education. Both Randolph-Macon College and Shenandoah University gave him honorary doctorates.

        One honor in particular was unusual for a historian: In 2008, he was elected to the Virginia Tech Sports Hall of Fame. Robertson spent several years as a faculty representative from Virginia Tech to the National Collegiate Athletic Association, and from 1979 to 1991 he served as faculty chairman of athletics and president of the Virginia Tech Athletic Association. Notably, for a historian immersed in the nuances of major battles, he also worked as an Atlantic Coast Conference football referee for 16 years.

        Robertson was a long-time, generous supporter of Virginia Tech. He was also a member of the Ut Prosim Society, which recognizes leaders in the philanthropic support of the university.

        Not all of Robertson’s generosity to the university was monetary. He was instrumental in establishing a special Civil War collection at the University Libraries at Virginia Tech. He also donated most of his own 7,000-volume collection — one of the country’s largest private collections of Civil War books — to both that special collection and to Randolph-Macon College.

        “Dr. Robertson was so many things: spellbinding lecturer, beloved teacher, accomplished author, guardian of Civil War history, big band player, ordained deacon, even football referee,” said Paul Quigley, director of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies and the James I. Robertson Jr. Associate Professor in Civil War Studies. “Above all else he was a Hokie, unfailingly dedicated to Virginia Tech and the thousands of students he taught here.”

        Those students became alumni, of course, and Robertson was especially proud of being recognized as a recipient of the Distinguished Alumni Award. Memorably, he proposed to his second wife, Elizabeth “Betty Lee” Robertson, in front of a crowd of Hokies at an alumni chapter event in 2010. The following year, the talk he delivered for that chapter was “Sweethearts of the Civil War.”

        “The Alumni Association was honored that Bud Robertson held one of its coveted Alumni Distinguished Professorships, appointed some 20 years after this university-wide program was originally established,” said Tom Tillar, former vice president for alumni relations at Virginia Tech. “During that time and even in his retirement, he spoke at well over 100 alumni chapter, reunion, and other alumni events. On each occasion, his wit, captivating style, and glimpses into history were powerful proof of his brilliance as a celebrated historian, his love for Virginia Tech, and his endearment to our alumni as a university treasure.”

        Robertson’s first wife, Elizabeth “Libba” Robertson, predeceased him in 2008. He is survived by his wife, Elizabeth “Betty Lee” Robertson; his sons, James I. Robertson III and Howard Robertson; his daughter, Beth Brown; his stepson, William W. Lee Jr.; his stepdaughter, Elizabeth A. Lee; seven grandchildren; and four great-grandchildren.

        In lieu of flowers, the family asks that well-wishers consider giving in support of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies or the University Libraries at Virginia Tech. The family also requests that people explore their attics for possible Civil War artifacts they might consider donating to enhance the Virginia Tech special collection. Any donations may be made “in honor of Dr. Bud.”

        In addition, the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies has established a tribute page in Dr. Bud’s honor. Visit it here to read remembrances of him and to contribute your own stories.

        “Dr. Robertson was a remarkable person who shared his life and gifts with so many,” said Virginia Tech President Tim Sands. “His service to the nation, the commonwealth, his profession, and the Virginia Tech community is unparalleled. We are incredibly fortunate to have had the great benefit of his talents for so many years. May we carry Dr. Robertson’s passion for discovery and spirit of service forward in his honor.” Quote from Va. Tech

        For a very fine 71 minute summation of the US Civil Warn by this great historian see this C-Span interview held at Gettysburg College Civil War Institute found at:

        https://www.c-span.org/video/?447001-4/conversation-historian-james-robertson

        Stonewall Jackson: The Man, The Solider, The Legend
        by James Robertson

  3. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    O’Keefe, I too once suffered from the notion Lee opposed slavery, but not true. The most famous evidence was a court suit he instituted to overturn a will that manumitted a number of slaves, seeking to void the wishes of the decedent. For the most part the true abolitionist Virginians remained loyal, if often quiet about it.

    https://www.historynet.com/robert-e-lee-slavery.htm Reprint from Civil War Times.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Forget the lawsuit. His own sister told people how he felt about slavery. It’s in her contemporaneous diary and letters.

  4. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
    UpAgnstTheWall

    If white folks wanted the monuments to stay they shouldn’t have abandoned the city in the first place. These would have been removed much sooner had the state conservatives not required the General Assembly to sign off.

    And of course The Great Society barely had the opportunity to get off the ground before conservatives started undermining it. Four years of Johnson then right years of Nixon/Does then four years of Carter then the Reagan Revolution. The truth is there were successes that began being unraveled in the 80s:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/us-civil-rights-report-kerner-commission

  5. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I support the move by Governor Northam to remove the Lee statue on Monument Avenue, but I don’t like the timing.

    That being said, let me set out my credentials. I was born and raised in Southside Virginia. My ancestors owned slaves. They fought in the Civil War. Like all Virginia kids growing up in the ’50s, I was surrounded by veneration of Robert E. Lee and stories of the glories of the Confederacy. I was a member of the Children of the Confederacy, a unit of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Douglas Southall Freeman’s R.E. Lee and Lee’s Lieutenants were on my father’s bookshelves and are now on mine, as is the more recent biography of Stonewall Jackson by James Robertson.

    It is time that Virginians recognize the Civil War for what it really was—an attempt to protect slavery. Robert E. Lee and the other generals and soldiers of the Confederacy were in armed conflict with the United States government. To continue to see it as the Lost Cause is, in the words of George Thomas, a Virginian who was a distinguished general in the Union Army, “a species of political cant, whereby the crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand in hand with the defenders of the government, thus wiping out with their own hands their own stains.”

    Society erects statutes to persons and causes it wishes to honor and hold as examples to future generations. It is time to take down the statues glorifying the leading Virginians in the Civil War. They do not represent the ideals and causes we want to pass on to our children. Some will say that taking down the statues is erasing history. The history will still be there after the statues are gone. There are many lessons we can learn from the history of the Civil War, without glorifying the reasons for it and deifying the Confederate generals who led it.

    As for the timing, removing the monument now looks too much like giving in to looting and vandalism.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      That was an earnest narrative. Thanks.

      I think if there had not been prior activity about the statues that the timing would be seen as pandering and worse.

      I was born in Virginia and went to school in Virginia when the schools were segregated and when young I saw the statues as memorials to great men who fought for a cause they believed in… At that time, I did not know about Jim Crow nor the role it played in erecting the statues. As I recall Jim Crow was NOT taught in my civics class.

      We have some memorials up our way to Matthew Fontaine Maury. I do not know if they were also erected by UDC or allied but people seem less reactive towards his memory – perhaps because some don’t know much history… but he had a reputation beyond the Confederacy.

      I listen to black folks on issues. If they say the status are an insult to them AND they actually were put up by UDC during Jim Crow – I just don’t see how they can be defended.. now or before to be honest.

      By the way – we STILL have a school called Robert E. Lee Elementary at Spotsylvania Courthouse just a few miles from Bloody Angle – which has several stone memorials to the soldiers but no Generals on Horseback.

  6. Nancy — that is not the definition of systemic racism found in any dictionary.

  7. Congratulations, LarryG and Nancy Naïve, you have once again managed to divert the dialogue away from the post, which does NOT defend the Civil War statues. At no point have you disputed the point that removing the statues is a purely symbolic gesture that changes nothing in peoples’ lives. Nor have you disputed the failure of Great Society institutions to address racial equity (Jim Loving gave it a try, but there was little follow-up). Nor have you addressed what comes next legislatively.

    Tactic One: Distract by changing the subject
    Tactic Two: Make stuff up
    Tactic Three: Attack the source
    Tactic Four: Engage in sarcasm

    I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      you must have missed this and it was very much on point:

      re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

      Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.

      Also, other things like education and poverty have also changed for the better but we are not finished yet.

      Finally, I dunno about the idea that Govt has “failed’ because it has not allowed the free market to “fix” things like health care and education.

      No other developed country on the planet has a free-market system that provides health care and public education… it’s all government – and unlike us – they have not “failed”. They all live longer than us and they all score higher an academic scales. Our folks call that “socialism” and insist that if our govt was “better” the “free market” would “work”.

      These are the folks that supposedly should take over from the leftists and set things right!”

      no distractions at all – directly in response to your points.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Jim – you are attacking the commentors..not their points… what gives? Good Lord!

      “I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.”

      AND you’re actually inviting more attacks from others!

    3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      A symbolic gesture of removing symbolic gestures? Okay.

      Actually, there’s nothing symbolic about it. They are literally, not figuratively, taking them down. I cannot fathom their motives, just farewell to bad rubbish. And, if the timing seems like they are taking advantage of the situation, maybe it’s because the defenders of these monuments to racism are finally put in a position where THEY cannot take advantage of the situation.

      It’s like after each kiddie massacre. “Now is the time for thoughts and prayers, not the time for gun control discussion.”

      Yeah, well.

      Changing the subject? Hell, I’m old. What we’re we talking about?

      Make stuff up? What, you think I went back in time and wrote that letter for Lee? Or maybe I ran over the people in Charlottesville to defend their statue.

      Attack the source? What source? The Daughters of thr Confedracy?

      Sarcasm? Nah, that’s not sarcasm. It’s witty repartee.

  8. Acbar Avatar

    The most sensible comment I’ve seen is from DJR, above — let me repeat this part:

    “Richmond could have become a living museum of the US Civil War but chose not to do so. Instead, Richmond glorified the Confederacy alone. Statues of seemingly valiant, brave Confederate officers riding high on mighty steeds. Where is the statue of Robert E Lee surrendering to US Grant? Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery.Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery. Richmond would have been the perfect city to tell the whole story of America’s slaveholding past to the present. ”

    Exactly. But those who cling to the “Lost Cause” are now reaping the benefits of their one-sided commitment to it. Now this part of our history is not balanced by another, wider view, but suppressed, hidden, not to be discussed.

    What possible good does it do to pretend a portion of our collective history cannot be talked about? What possible good can it do to talk only about slavery as an unpardonable evil, but not at the same time to understand and — yes, discuss — the agricultural and economic and social imperatives of southern US life over the past 200 years and its achievements — and clearly there were some — and the institutions that arose there for the greater good, as well as its manifest failings? It’s pretty clear that we cannot have that conversation now, mainly because the Lost Cause folks have not yet allowed it to happen, and we are seeing the only possible peaceable alternative to that play out, here: the other side, too, gets its exclusive time to be heard, and after a generation or two the reaction to suppressing history will overcome the one-sidedness of that conversation too, and we will get back to discussing what happened with less passion and more historical detachment and a sense of context on both sides. This reminds me of the debate within Germany dealing with its own history of the Nazi years.
    Meanwhile, we are engaged in scrubbing away history itself, and that is both irrational and unsustainable in the long run.

  9. kls59 Avatar

    So what worthwhile programs will suffer a lack of funds because of this current budget crisis caused by the COVID-19 economic downturn so the Gov can undertake his latest racial pandering?

  10. kls59 Avatar

    So what worthwhile programs will suffer a lack of funds because of this current budget crisis caused by the COVID-19 economic downturn so the Gov can undertake his latest racial pandering?

  11. kls59 Avatar

    Oh, and we must change the state’s name as Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen promoted and profited from the slave trade.

  12. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Surprised it took this long. Lee himself hated the idea of such iconography. As I said in 2017, if he could move he would have come down on his own.

    And I didn’t talk about feelings yesterday, Jim, but beliefs. Perceptions. In politics, perceptions are reality.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      And, for the very reason as has been shown true.

      “Let’s honor his memory by dishonoring his wishes.”

    2. Acbar Avatar

      I believe that Lee, had he lived into the 1890s instead of dying only five years after the War ended, in 1870, would have joined the Republican Party, along with Longstreet, to move Virginia forward into the war-wearied years of repair and reform that brought public education and public health and agricultural reform to Virginia — to make the most of the moment, as he demonstrated at Washington College (later W&L), not backwards into the dark maw of the Lost Cause so ably (and self-servingly) promoted by Jubal Early.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Acbar says:

        I believe that Lee, had he lived into the 1890s instead of dying only five years after the War ended, in 1870, would have joined the Republican Party, along with Longstreet, to move Virginia forward into the war-wearied years of repair and reform that brought public education and public health and agricultural reform to Virginia — to make the most of the moment, as he demonstrated at Washington College (later W&L), not backwards into the dark maw of the Lost Cause so ably (and self-servingly) promoted by Jubal Early.” END Quote.

        Likely that too would have been the view of Civil War scholar James Robertson. He believed that only Robert E. Lee, in the great vacuum of national leadership after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, was able by his reputation to hold the nation together, a shattered nation that otherwise would have descended into a history pf chronic anarchy driven by guerrilla wars led by the likes of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

        James Robertson knew his subject. This from his obituary.

        “History is the greatest teacher you will ever have,” James I. “Bud” Robertson Jr. often told his students. If history is the greatest teacher, many of them might have argued, then he was the second greatest.

        Robertson, Alumni Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at Virginia Tech, died on Nov. 2 after a long illness. He was 89 years old.

        Robertson used vivid stories to bring the American Civil War to life not just for generations of Virginia Tech students, but also for millions across the world through his award-winning books, frequent television appearances, popular radio essays, and passionate advocacy of history.

        Dr. Bud, as he liked to be called, grew up poor near the train tracks in Danville, Virginia, with dreams of becoming a railroad engineer. Yet when he asked for a railroad job at the age of 17, the yardmaster, who knew him well, told him to go to college first. The rest is literally history.

        Robertson went on to earn a bachelor’s in history from Randolph-Macon College and a master’s degree and doctorate, also in history, from Emory University.

        During the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, President John F. Kennedy asked Robertson to serve as executive director of the United States Civil War Centennial Commission. At the time, the committee was foundering under the pressure of both the emerging civil rights movement and regional differences. Robertson used his diplomatic talents to shepherd 34 state and 100 local centennial committees into organizing a successful and dignified commemoration.

        In 1967, Robertson joined the faculty of Virginia Tech, where his course on the Civil War attracted an average of 300 students each semester and became the largest class of its kind in the nation. During his 44 years at the university, he taught more than 25,000 Virginia Tech students. In several instances, he ended up teaching three generations of the same families.

        Robertson held the C. P. “Sally” Miles Professorship at Virginia Tech from 1976 until his appointment in 1992 as Alumni Distinguished Professor, a preeminent appointment reserved for recognition of faculty members who demonstrate extraordinary accomplishments and academic citizenship.

        In 1999, Robertson became founding director of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies. From its home in the Virginia Tech Department of History, the center educates scholars and the public about the causes and consequences of one of the nation’s most momentous conflicts. The center’s annual Civil War Weekend is just one of the ongoing, vibrant programs that Robertson established.

        The consummate teacher was also a celebrated author and editor, with more than 40 books on the Civil War to his credit. One of those works was based on another of Robertson’s boyhood passions — General Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson. The book, considered a definitive biography, won eight national awards and became a key source for a 2003 movie, “Gods and Generals,” for which Robertson served as chief historical consultant.

        “For fully six decades Bud Robertson was a dominant figure in his field, and a great encouragement to all who would study our turbulent past during the middle of the 19th century,” said William C. “Jack” Davis, former director of the center and himself the author or editor of more than 50 books on the Civil War and the history of the South. “Moreover, amid a conversation that can still become bitter and confrontational, his was a voice for reason, patience, and understanding. In the offing, he has become virtually ‘Mr. Virginia,’ a spokesperson for the commonwealth past, present, and future. His voice is now sorely missed — and irreplaceable.”

        Virginia Tech honored Robertson with emeritus status soon after his retirement in 2011. At the same time, during the commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the war, Robertson served as an executive committee member of the Virginia Sesquicentennial of the American Civil War Commission. He also served as executive producer of “Virginia in the Civil War: A Sesquicentennial Remembrance,” a complimentary DVD provided to every school and library in the commonwealth.

        “The next generations must have a knowledge of the past,” Robertson said. “If you do not know where you have been, you have no idea where you should go.”

        A lecturer of national acclaim, Robertson also delivered more than 350 radio essays that aired weekly for nearly 15 years on National Public Radio affiliates as far away as Alaska. Those broadcasts featured the stories of the men, women, children, and even animals who endured the heartbreak of the Civil War.

        “If you don’t understand the emotion of the war,” he would say, “you’ll never understand the war.”

        Under Robertson’s championship, in 2015 the Commonwealth of Virginia adopted “Our Great Virginia,” based on the folk song “Oh, Shenandoah,” as the traditional state song.

        “Virginia is the Mother State,” he said. “It should be the leader in all facets of the Republic. This makes the absence of a state song glaring. The physical beauty and incomparable history of Virginia need to be transformed as well into the emotions of music. ‘Our Great Virginia’ fulfills that need.”

        Robertson received numerous prestigious honors, including three commendations from the Virginia General Assembly; the Virginius Dabney Award, the highest recognition given by the Museum of the Confederacy; the Virginia Press Association’s 2004 Virginian of the Year; the Best Non-Fiction Book Award by the Library of Virginia in 1997; and the Outstanding Professor Award of the Virginia Council for Higher Education. Both Randolph-Macon College and Shenandoah University gave him honorary doctorates.

        One honor in particular was unusual for a historian: In 2008, he was elected to the Virginia Tech Sports Hall of Fame. Robertson spent several years as a faculty representative from Virginia Tech to the National Collegiate Athletic Association, and from 1979 to 1991 he served as faculty chairman of athletics and president of the Virginia Tech Athletic Association. Notably, for a historian immersed in the nuances of major battles, he also worked as an Atlantic Coast Conference football referee for 16 years.

        Robertson was a long-time, generous supporter of Virginia Tech. He was also a member of the Ut Prosim Society, which recognizes leaders in the philanthropic support of the university.

        Not all of Robertson’s generosity to the university was monetary. He was instrumental in establishing a special Civil War collection at the University Libraries at Virginia Tech. He also donated most of his own 7,000-volume collection — one of the country’s largest private collections of Civil War books — to both that special collection and to Randolph-Macon College.

        “Dr. Robertson was so many things: spellbinding lecturer, beloved teacher, accomplished author, guardian of Civil War history, big band player, ordained deacon, even football referee,” said Paul Quigley, director of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies and the James I. Robertson Jr. Associate Professor in Civil War Studies. “Above all else he was a Hokie, unfailingly dedicated to Virginia Tech and the thousands of students he taught here.”

        Those students became alumni, of course, and Robertson was especially proud of being recognized as a recipient of the Distinguished Alumni Award. Memorably, he proposed to his second wife, Elizabeth “Betty Lee” Robertson, in front of a crowd of Hokies at an alumni chapter event in 2010. The following year, the talk he delivered for that chapter was “Sweethearts of the Civil War.”

        “The Alumni Association was honored that Bud Robertson held one of its coveted Alumni Distinguished Professorships, appointed some 20 years after this university-wide program was originally established,” said Tom Tillar, former vice president for alumni relations at Virginia Tech. “During that time and even in his retirement, he spoke at well over 100 alumni chapter, reunion, and other alumni events. On each occasion, his wit, captivating style, and glimpses into history were powerful proof of his brilliance as a celebrated historian, his love for Virginia Tech, and his endearment to our alumni as a university treasure.”

        Robertson’s first wife, Elizabeth “Libba” Robertson, predeceased him in 2008. He is survived by his wife, Elizabeth “Betty Lee” Robertson; his sons, James I. Robertson III and Howard Robertson; his daughter, Beth Brown; his stepson, William W. Lee Jr.; his stepdaughter, Elizabeth A. Lee; seven grandchildren; and four great-grandchildren.

        In lieu of flowers, the family asks that well-wishers consider giving in support of the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies or the University Libraries at Virginia Tech. The family also requests that people explore their attics for possible Civil War artifacts they might consider donating to enhance the Virginia Tech special collection. Any donations may be made “in honor of Dr. Bud.”

        In addition, the Virginia Center for Civil War Studies has established a tribute page in Dr. Bud’s honor. Visit it here to read remembrances of him and to contribute your own stories.

        “Dr. Robertson was a remarkable person who shared his life and gifts with so many,” said Virginia Tech President Tim Sands. “His service to the nation, the commonwealth, his profession, and the Virginia Tech community is unparalleled. We are incredibly fortunate to have had the great benefit of his talents for so many years. May we carry Dr. Robertson’s passion for discovery and spirit of service forward in his honor.” Quote from Va. Tech

        For a very fine 71 minute summation of the US Civil Warn by this great historian see this C-Span interview held at Gettysburg College Civil War Institute found at:

        https://www.c-span.org/video/?447001-4/conversation-historian-james-robertson

        Stonewall Jackson: The Man, The Solider, The Legend
        by James Robertson

  13. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    Is it because taking statues down is relatively easy and is action that is easy to see, to know some action was taken?

    “But the demand for deep, structural change — defunding police departments and holding them accountable, ending mass incarceration, investing in Black communities, reparations, and more — is continuing to grow. Although sparked by the murders of George Floyd, Tony McDade, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and countless others, the protests are fueled by centuries of violence and systemic oppression.” (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/how-to-support-racial-justice-black-americans/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=US_June_4_2020_content_digest)

  14. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    Is it because taking statues down is relatively easy and is action that is easy to see, to know some action was taken?

    “But the demand for deep, structural change — defunding police departments and holding them accountable, ending mass incarceration, investing in Black communities, reparations, and more — is continuing to grow. Although sparked by the murders of George Floyd, Tony McDade, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and countless others, the protests are fueled by centuries of violence and systemic oppression.” (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/how-to-support-racial-justice-black-americans/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=US_June_4_2020_content_digest)

  15. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Sender: Robert E. Lee
    Recipient: Thoms L. Rosser

    Lexington VA 13 Dec – r 1866
    My dear Genl
    I have considered the questions in your letter of the 8th Inst: & am unable to advise as to the efficacy of the scheme proposed for the accomplishment of the object in view. That can be better determined by those more conversant with similar plans than I am.

    As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated; my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; & of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour. All I think that can now be done, is to aid our noble & generous women in their efforts to protect the graves & mark the last resting places of those who have fallen, & wait for better times.

    I am very glad to hear of your comfortable establishment in Baltimore & that Mrs. Rosser is with you. Please present to her my warm regards. It would give me great pleasure to meet you both anywhere, & especially at times of leisure in the mountains of Virginia; but such times look too distant for me to contemplate, much less for me now to make arrangements for –

    Very truly yours
    R E Lee
    Genl Thos: L. Rosser
    Notes:

    Lee PapersUniversity of Virginia Archives

  16. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Sender: Robert E. Lee
    Recipient: Thoms L. Rosser

    Lexington VA 13 Dec – r 1866
    My dear Genl
    I have considered the questions in your letter of the 8th Inst: & am unable to advise as to the efficacy of the scheme proposed for the accomplishment of the object in view. That can be better determined by those more conversant with similar plans than I am.

    As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated; my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; & of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour. All I think that can now be done, is to aid our noble & generous women in their efforts to protect the graves & mark the last resting places of those who have fallen, & wait for better times.

    I am very glad to hear of your comfortable establishment in Baltimore & that Mrs. Rosser is with you. Please present to her my warm regards. It would give me great pleasure to meet you both anywhere, & especially at times of leisure in the mountains of Virginia; but such times look too distant for me to contemplate, much less for me now to make arrangements for –

    Very truly yours
    R E Lee
    Genl Thos: L. Rosser
    Notes:

    Lee PapersUniversity of Virginia Archives

  17. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Yesterday here, linking in a WSJ article telling the lie of nationwide police brutality by unassailable statistics at:

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/ralph-northam-on-the-racial-protests/

    I said:

    “In addition the statistics show that the far larger problem is the safely of black people, including children and elderly and women in, black neighborhoods. And in DC, that surely was the case, and widely reported as such, after the late 1960s riots in DC. Many blacks feared to return to their homes, and locked themselves inside, living in fear, when they did. I knew several of them. Many formerly vibrant neighborhoods have not come back to this day. Whole vibrant and rich cultures were lost.”

    Now, good people in America will either choose to stand up together and resist this anarchy or they, their families, their cultures and civilization itself, will be consumed by its fires, never to rise again, just ashes ever more like those lost burned neighborhoods in DC. The choice is ours, grovel in place as cowards, or stand up against anarchy, stopping it, and within that peace raising up all of our people into productive citizens, each with full and equal opportunity, using their own free will, to realize all their talents and dreams.

    To date, we have miserably failed the test before us, as we shrivel, cower, and die, by our free choice, unwilling even to act to save ourselves.

  18. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Yesterday here, linking in a WSJ article telling the lie of nationwide police brutality by unassailable statistics at:

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/ralph-northam-on-the-racial-protests/

    I said:

    “In addition the statistics show that the far larger problem is the safely of black people, including children and elderly and women in, black neighborhoods. And in DC, that surely was the case, and widely reported as such, after the late 1960s riots in DC. Many blacks feared to return to their homes, and locked themselves inside, living in fear, when they did. I knew several of them. Many formerly vibrant neighborhoods have not come back to this day. Whole vibrant and rich cultures were lost.”

    Now, good people in America will either choose to stand up together and resist this anarchy or they, their families, their cultures and civilization itself, will be consumed by its fires, never to rise again, just ashes ever more like those lost burned neighborhoods in DC. The choice is ours, grovel in place as cowards, or stand up against anarchy, stopping it, and within that peace raising up all of our people into productive citizens, each with full and equal opportunity, using their own free will, to realize all their talents and dreams.

    To date, we have miserably failed the test before us, as we shrivel, cower, and die, by our free choice, unwilling even to act to save ourselves.

  19. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

    Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.

    Also, other things like education and poverty have also changed for the better but we are not finished yet.

    Finally, I dunno about the idea that Govt has “failed’ because it has not allowed the free market to “fix” things like health care and education.

    No other developed country on the planet has a free-market system that provides health care and public education… it’s all government – and unlike us – they have not “failed”. They all live longer than us and they all score higher an academic scales. Our folks call that “socialism” and insist that if our govt was “better” the “free market” would “work”.

    These are the folks that supposedly should take over from the leftists and set things right!

  20. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

    Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.

    Also, other things like education and poverty have also changed for the better but we are not finished yet.

    Finally, I dunno about the idea that Govt has “failed’ because it has not allowed the free market to “fix” things like health care and education.

    No other developed country on the planet has a free-market system that provides health care and public education… it’s all government – and unlike us – they have not “failed”. They all live longer than us and they all score higher an academic scales. Our folks call that “socialism” and insist that if our govt was “better” the “free market” would “work”.

    These are the folks that supposedly should take over from the leftists and set things right!

  21. Jim Loving Avatar
    Jim Loving

    JB – you continue, as most “whataboutism” conservative libertarians arguments continue to do, never acknowledge “the original sin” or racism in America, and its continuing codification of honoring racist, slaveholidng, treasonous secessionists as a reminder of a “just” “Lost Cause.”

    From the end of the Civil War – fought because of this original sin, until the 1960s, the south in particular created a system of oppression once African American’s were freed, continuing to subjugate Americans and kill and suppress them, along with cultural reinforcements for this dominance – including the Confederate statues put in place well after the Civil War as a reminder of this dominance.

    For a long, excellent account of this history, and in early attempts to address the underlying issues of poverty ahead of the Great Society, I refer you to Jim DiEugenio’s review of 4 books on the history of Civil Rights in America leading up to the Presidency of JFK, see the link below. It was a defense of his record, and noted all the inaction that preceded it and why, and how hard it was to actually bring about change in America to this system of prejudice and oppression.

    I was born the year the Supreme Court ruled on Brown vs Board of Education and I was 15 years old going to school in the County you now reside in, Henrico, before they decided to integrate the schools. Ralph Davis gives an excellent first hand account in the linked Medium article, and I commented on it.

    Also, and this is where we could come together with a non-defensive and accusatory, “Whataboutism” always prevalent in libertarian-conservative talking points, he goes into great detail regarding RFK’s original ideas of addressing poverty in America and how it was co-opted by LBJ to become the “Great Society. RFK’s idea was to bring field trials to economic projects at a local level. These ideas were based on David Hackett, prior to LBJ ultimately going with the Great Society approach. These ideas have been successfully put into place elsewhere and most recently been discussed and promoted by the Economist Esther Duflo.

    So just quit it with the “liberal Democrats have failed social welfare problems” and try again. We need to both address underlying systemic racism and change and improve our approaches to addressing the social undoing of Black Lives and all lives in America. But that will start with white guys like you and me changing how we frame the problem and what we decide to do about it. You might start with the 10 recommendations from Dana Brownlee in her article in Fortune Magazine.

    Finally, as to the replacement of Robert E Lee, its about time. I was born and raised in Richmond – good riddance to that traitor. My suggestion for his replacement? How about Abraham Lincoln in Richmond, April 4, 1865? You could include jubilant slaves greeting him, as depicted in the wood engraving from Frank Leslie that is now in the Library of Congress. See the linked article and picture below in the NY Times.

    https://kennedysandking.com/reviews/the-kennedys-and-civil-rights-how-the-msm-continues-to-distort-history-part-1?fbclid=IwAR0sx6S_fsd0zlzaBitgYGq9WtCF4DfwEWJQSBtZdP0oj1mbWq47fL_irBQ

    https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.forbes.com/sites/avivahwittenbergcox/2020/05/31/5-economists-redefining-everything–oh-yes-and-theyre-women/amp

    https://medium.com/@RalphMDavis/separate-and-unequal-part-i-elementary-and-high-school-days-d1e7d456a59d

    https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/lincolns-triumphant-visit-to-richmond/

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Mr. Loving. Thank You. You do not comment enough here… at least for me.

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I always appreciate the use of the term original sin by those who fail to understand that by definition it stains us all and predates 1619. We grasp that and the passion cools and the stones drop from our hands.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        just spitballing but could it be one of those Double entendre critters?

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Steve says; “I always appreciate the use of the term original sin by those who fail to understand that by definition it stains us all and predates 1619. We grasp that and the passion cools and the stones drop from our hands.”

        It is amazing how the human psyche, with nothing better to do in hyper active times, gets so quickly distracted by bright shiny objects.

        For example:

        Even Covid 19, the existential threat to human kind a week ago, after the Russia Collusion monster threat to America, has disappeared, so now we need more shiny objects to divert own cowardly nature from a real threat before us all, that of the burning down of our cities, the shutting down of our economy, an outbreak of anarchy, and a now looming civil war. This one can kill us all. It’s gut driver is Original Sin.

        Original Sin – It’s a huge driver of racism, and it lurks in our psyche just below the surface of each and all of us, always. And it is why we so easily jump at the chance to tear other apart, leaving not a stone upon a stone of the other.

        Original Sin’s most recent disguise today goes by name Identity Politics. It creates hate. And violence. That is why corrupt politicians love Identity Politics so much. They use it to manipulate us and gain control of us. And to ultimately drive us to our own destruction, after we destroy others and their cities at the direction of our leaders.

    3. It’s a shame that the United States didn’t adopt the RFK approach to social reform: bringing field trials to economic projects at a local level. That’s EXACTLY the approach I have advocated consistently on this blog. Test, measure, modify, test, measure, modify until you’ve got things working right.

      The problem in the 1960s was the liberalism was in a hurry. The LBJ approach won, and the RFK approach was abandoned. The U.S. opted for grand national schemes aimed to make a big impact fast. Some succeeded, many failed. But all accreted a panoply of special interests that perpetuated the programs, preserved sinecures, and spread self-serving arguments to disguise the failures.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Jim – we have 50 states; often called 50 laboratories for Democracy.

        How can 50 different states fail by all of them doing the same wrong thing?

        Can not a single state do something different and better or are all of them just in lockstep to failure?

        when you say: ” Some succeeded, many failed”, who are you talking about?

        It’s almost as if you are saying that government at all levels, Federal, State and local did learn what you are saying…

        ?

      2. Acbar Avatar

        Completely agree. Except sometimes when there’s focus on a problem you have the one window to enact reforms to remedy things. All too often the moment for reform passes, the experiments (if there were any) are shelved and lessons learned are ignored. Then the cycle repeats.

  22. Jim Loving Avatar
    Jim Loving

    JB – you continue, as most “whataboutism” conservative libertarians arguments continue to do, never acknowledge “the original sin” or racism in America, and its continuing codification of honoring racist, slaveholidng, treasonous secessionists as a reminder of a “just” “Lost Cause.”

    From the end of the Civil War – fought because of this original sin, until the 1960s, the south in particular created a system of oppression once African American’s were freed, continuing to subjugate Americans and kill and suppress them, along with cultural reinforcements for this dominance – including the Confederate statues put in place well after the Civil War as a reminder of this dominance.

    For a long, excellent account of this history, and in early attempts to address the underlying issues of poverty ahead of the Great Society, I refer you to Jim DiEugenio’s review of 4 books on the history of Civil Rights in America leading up to the Presidency of JFK, see the link below. It was a defense of his record, and noted all the inaction that preceded it and why, and how hard it was to actually bring about change in America to this system of prejudice and oppression.

    I was born the year the Supreme Court ruled on Brown vs Board of Education and I was 15 years old going to school in the County you now reside in, Henrico, before they decided to integrate the schools. Ralph Davis gives an excellent first hand account in the linked Medium article, and I commented on it.

    Also, and this is where we could come together with a non-defensive and accusatory, “Whataboutism” always prevalent in libertarian-conservative talking points, he goes into great detail regarding RFK’s original ideas of addressing poverty in America and how it was co-opted by LBJ to become the “Great Society. RFK’s idea was to bring field trials to economic projects at a local level. These ideas were based on David Hackett, prior to LBJ ultimately going with the Great Society approach. These ideas have been successfully put into place elsewhere and most recently been discussed and promoted by the Economist Esther Duflo.

    So just quit it with the “liberal Democrats have failed social welfare problems” and try again. We need to both address underlying systemic racism and change and improve our approaches to addressing the social undoing of Black Lives and all lives in America. But that will start with white guys like you and me changing how we frame the problem and what we decide to do about it. You might start with the 10 recommendations from Dana Brownlee in her article in Fortune Magazine.

    Finally, as to the replacement of Robert E Lee, its about time. I was born and raised in Richmond – good riddance to that traitor. My suggestion for his replacement? How about Abraham Lincoln in Richmond, April 4, 1865? You could include jubilant slaves greeting him, as depicted in the wood engraving from Frank Leslie that is now in the Library of Congress. See the linked article and picture below in the NY Times.

    https://kennedysandking.com/reviews/the-kennedys-and-civil-rights-how-the-msm-continues-to-distort-history-part-1?fbclid=IwAR0sx6S_fsd0zlzaBitgYGq9WtCF4DfwEWJQSBtZdP0oj1mbWq47fL_irBQ

    https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.forbes.com/sites/avivahwittenbergcox/2020/05/31/5-economists-redefining-everything–oh-yes-and-theyre-women/amp

    https://medium.com/@RalphMDavis/separate-and-unequal-part-i-elementary-and-high-school-days-d1e7d456a59d

    https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/lincolns-triumphant-visit-to-richmond/

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I always appreciate the use of the term original sin by those who fail to understand that by definition it stains us all and predates 1619. We grasp that and the passion cools and the stones drop from our hands.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        just spitballing but could it be one of those Double entendre critters?

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Steve says; “I always appreciate the use of the term original sin by those who fail to understand that by definition it stains us all and predates 1619. We grasp that and the passion cools and the stones drop from our hands.”

        It is amazing how the human psyche, with nothing better to do in hyper active times, gets so quickly distracted by bright shiny objects.

        For example:

        Even Covid 19, the existential threat to human kind a week ago, after the Russia Collusion monster threat to America, has disappeared, so now we need more shiny objects to divert own cowardly nature from a real threat before us all, that of the burning down of our cities, the shutting down of our economy, an outbreak of anarchy, and a now looming civil war. This one can kill us all. It’s gut driver is Original Sin.

        Original Sin – It’s a huge driver of racism, and it lurks in our psyche just below the surface of each and all of us, always. And it is why we so easily jump at the chance to tear other apart, leaving not a stone upon a stone of the other.

        Original Sin’s most recent disguise today goes by name Identity Politics. It creates hate. And violence. That is why corrupt politicians love Identity Politics so much. They use it to manipulate us and gain control of us. And to ultimately drive us to our own destruction, after we destroy others and their cities at the direction of our leaders.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Mr. Loving. Thank You. You do not comment enough here… at least for me.

    3. It’s a shame that the United States didn’t adopt the RFK approach to social reform: bringing field trials to economic projects at a local level. That’s EXACTLY the approach I have advocated consistently on this blog. Test, measure, modify, test, measure, modify until you’ve got things working right.

      The problem in the 1960s was the liberalism was in a hurry. The LBJ approach won, and the RFK approach was abandoned. The U.S. opted for grand national schemes aimed to make a big impact fast. Some succeeded, many failed. But all accreted a panoply of special interests that perpetuated the programs, preserved sinecures, and spread self-serving arguments to disguise the failures.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Jim – we have 50 states; often called 50 laboratories for Democracy.

        How can 50 different states fail by all of them doing the same wrong thing?

        Can not a single state do something different and better or are all of them just in lockstep to failure?

        when you say: ” Some succeeded, many failed”, who are you talking about?

        It’s almost as if you are saying that government at all levels, Federal, State and local did learn what you are saying…

        ?

      2. Acbar Avatar

        Completely agree. Except sometimes when there’s focus on a problem you have the one window to enact reforms to remedy things. All too often the moment for reform passes, the experiments (if there were any) are shelved and lessons learned are ignored. Then the cycle repeats.

  23. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    “Confederate statues don’t create single-parent households.”

    Well, maybe one..
    http://cwmemory.com/2015/12/12/lynched-with-a-confederate-flag/
    Bet I can find more…
    Such a rich collection of what-about-this-ones I can research.

    “Confederate statues don’t kill people in drive-by shootings.” Shooting? Does just running them over with the car count?

    Whatever will you say if when they’re gone things get better?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      To pick up on an old point, perceptions ARE reality. If many people perceive the statues as offensive, and clearly many do, that matters. My only argument has been that removing them should depend on who controls them and with Lee that’s the state and the others it is the city. Until December I was a city taxpayer so I might have had a say, but I’m not now.

      If things get better, and on the issue of police behavior it simply has to somehow, I really don’t care how. That must change (and I say it agreeing that bad police can and do abuse plenty of people who are not black.)

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        geeze..I agree with all of it… GAWD! 😉

  24. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    “Confederate statues don’t create single-parent households.”

    Well, maybe one..
    http://cwmemory.com/2015/12/12/lynched-with-a-confederate-flag/
    Bet I can find more…
    Such a rich collection of what-about-this-ones I can research.

    “Confederate statues don’t kill people in drive-by shootings.” Shooting? Does just running them over with the car count?

    Whatever will you say if when they’re gone things get better?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      To pick up on an old point, perceptions ARE reality. If many people perceive the statues as offensive, and clearly many do, that matters. My only argument has been that removing them should depend on who controls them and with Lee that’s the state and the others it is the city. Until December I was a city taxpayer so I might have had a say, but I’m not now.

      If things get better, and on the issue of police behavior it simply has to somehow, I really don’t care how. That must change (and I say it agreeing that bad police can and do abuse plenty of people who are not black.)

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        geeze..I agree with all of it… GAWD! 😉

  25. The protesters are against “systemic” (anti-black) racism. Please give me some examples of “systemic” anti-black racism. The racist of individuals does not comprise “systemic” racism.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Putting up thousands of statues to the Confederacy, then fighting tooth and nail to keep them up. That’s pretty damned near the definition of systemic.

      There is not one single county, town, or city in the state of Virginia, and I would hazard to guess, perhaps in all of the South that did not also lose one of its own to the cause of the Union.

      It was a war that truly pitted brother against brother over the issues of slavery and secession.

      Want to put up statues? Fine. Then put up two.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Or the powerful meeting of brothers in blue and grey, a statue in the Capitol complex.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Twofer. Always the best option.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Red-lining–keeping blacks out of certain neighborhoods, either by zoning or deed covenants–was certainly systemic. It is now illegal, but its effects still are reflected in Richmond neighborhoods.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        more than just that:

        The Real Story of Racism at the USDA
        The USDA’s real race problem is its history of discrimination against African-American, Native American and other minority farmers who were pushed off their land.

        Any discussion about race and the USDA has to start with the crisis of black land loss. Although the US government never followed through on its promise to freed slaves of “forty acres and a mule,” African-Americans were able to establish a foothold in Southern agriculture. Black land ownership peaked in 1910, when 218,000 African-American farmers had an ownership stake in 15 million acres of land.

        By 1992, those numbers had dwindled to 2.3 million acres held by 18,000 black farmers. And that wasn’t just because farming was declining as a way of life: blacks were being pushed off the land in vastly disproportionate numbers. In 1920, one of out seven US farms were black-run; by 1992, African-Americans operated one out of 100 farms.

        https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/real-story-racism-usda/

        1. matthurt92 Avatar
          matthurt92

          Another example of how governmental bureaucracies “help” Americans.

  26. The protesters are against “systemic” (anti-black) racism. Please give me some examples of “systemic” anti-black racism. The racist of individuals does not comprise “systemic” racism.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Putting up thousands of statues to the Confederacy, then fighting tooth and nail to keep them up. That’s pretty damned near the definition of systemic.

      There is not one single county, town, or city in the state of Virginia, and I would hazard to guess, perhaps in all of the South that did not also lose one of its own to the cause of the Union.

      It was a war that truly pitted brother against brother over the issues of slavery and secession.

      Want to put up statues? Fine. Then put up two.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Or the powerful meeting of brothers in blue and grey, a statue in the Capitol complex.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Twofer. Always the best option.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Red-lining–keeping blacks out of certain neighborhoods, either by zoning or deed covenants–was certainly systemic. It is now illegal, but its effects still are reflected in Richmond neighborhoods.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        more than just that:

        The Real Story of Racism at the USDA
        The USDA’s real race problem is its history of discrimination against African-American, Native American and other minority farmers who were pushed off their land.

        Any discussion about race and the USDA has to start with the crisis of black land loss. Although the US government never followed through on its promise to freed slaves of “forty acres and a mule,” African-Americans were able to establish a foothold in Southern agriculture. Black land ownership peaked in 1910, when 218,000 African-American farmers had an ownership stake in 15 million acres of land.

        By 1992, those numbers had dwindled to 2.3 million acres held by 18,000 black farmers. And that wasn’t just because farming was declining as a way of life: blacks were being pushed off the land in vastly disproportionate numbers. In 1920, one of out seven US farms were black-run; by 1992, African-Americans operated one out of 100 farms.

        https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/real-story-racism-usda/

        1. matthurt92 Avatar
          matthurt92

          Another example of how governmental bureaucracies “help” Americans.

  27. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    And George Floyd is dead because the City of Minneapolis failed to remove Derek Chauvin but they did end single family zoning. But that’s OK with the Media and politicians. The silence continues. How many other towns, cities and counties have similar people on their police forces?

    How will giving public sector labor unions much more power help this situation? Don’t ask. They make campaign contributions and endorsements.

    Move the Confederate statutes to museums.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      re: ” How many other towns, cities and counties have similar people on their police forces?”

      isn’t this at least somewhat of the point of the protests?

      so I asked the question earlier and that is what rules are missing
      that would have resulted in the removal of Chauvin before he did this?

      Is it rules not in place or what?

      bonus question: the three that were compicit – should they have also
      been identified earlier and removed before they failed in their duty?

      how do we identify these kinds of folks and remove them before they do harm?

      I also posted a chart showing statistics on cities with regard to this kind of problem and it turns out that there are quite a few cities that don’t have this problem. Do we give them credit also for doing what they did do to prevent this kind of violence? Do they have better policies?

      If they are also Democratic cities does that mean that the Dem approach to this problem “works” also? So the Dem policies in those cities are “good” even if they are leftists?

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        Jacob Frey, born in Arlington and raised in Fairfax, campaigned in 2017 that the existing city administration had failed to identify and remove bad cops (cops with high levels of bad conduct) based, in large part on two police shootings – one involving white on black and the second black on white. Ergo, Frey was arguing that the rules in place were sufficient to remove bad cops. OK so far?

        He takes office in 2018, appoints his police chief. But does not take any action on Chauvin or Thao despite his criticism of defeated Mayor Hodges. Still with me?

        Flip to May 25, 2020, George Floyd is arrested for allegedly passing counterfeit money. He resists arrest and being placed in a squad car. Four cops move to subdue him. One must expect some force. But they had him down on the street with Chauvin’s knee in Floyd’s neck for more than 8 minutes. Accepted police tactics do not include placing a knee in a an arrestee’s neck. Floyd wasn’t armed. The other three officers do nothing to stop Chauvin. Floyd dies. Two final autopsies conclude that the knee in the neck caused his death.

        This is not about what other cities are doing or not doing. It’s about the murder of black man in police custody using tactics that are not sanctioned. It’s also about a mayor who campaigned on identifying cops with records of brutality and getting them off the force. Frey who hammered Mayor Hodge for failing to do this didn’t do this. And he stays on the job with virtually no criticism.

        We can look at other cities. But the fact remains: Had Frey done what he said he would do, George Floyd would most likely be alive today. He’s getting a pass because he is a woke Democrat. Dollars to donuts that, if Peter had a candid discussion with his buddy Hiatt at the Post, Hiatt would say “of course. Orangeman bad.”

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I do not know what constitutes a bad cop BEFORE he/she does something that confirms it.

          I do not have a clue how many like Chauvin remain on the force or how we would be able to identify them.

          You can fire the Mayor and fire the Police Chief but if you yourelf cannot tell them to identify the bad cops prior to their bad acts – then how/why would you expect any of them to know also?

          Yes.. Organgeman works this way.. he just hires and fires if they displease him – it don’t really matter if they’re doing anything else right or wrong – just that they did not please him…

          that’s not a way to fix the police issue.

          1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Make a contribution to Jacob Frey’s reelection campaign. He can do no wrong in your eyes.

            The City had Chauvin’s and all the other police officers’ records. And since Frey attacked his 2017 mayoral opponent, incumbent Betsy Hodge, as failing to get rid of bad cops, one might think that in more than two years, Frey might have instructed an aide or his brand new police chief to identify which police officers have a large number of community complaints, asked for further investigations and started proceedings to remove the guy and any others like him.

            It’s like JFK would have shut down NASA right after he said the U.S. was going to the moon in the 1960s. Or Reagan proposing major defense cuts after he criticized détente as a failure and the USSR a dangerous foe.

            Jacob Frey is a virtue-signaler who “beat up” his opponent on police reform and then ignored the problem. And George Floyd is dead as a result.

            We need major changes in policing. We cannot have trigger, club or fist-happy police officers. We cannot have police officers that look for black people while ignoring white people doing the same thing. But change can happen only at the local level. Local officials need to identify bad cops and get rid of them. What can be done at a state or local level is to list the fired cops and provide links to the facts that support the firings. Local officials need to have arms length relations with labor unions. And they also need to defend cops when the facts show complaints are wrong. It’s hard, dirty work, something that virtue-signaling won’t fix.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            There are two parts to this. The political and the institutional.

            The political is folks who run for office – both Dem and GOP that promise to do things. It’s often the GOP who is promising law and order and getting the cops to be tougher on crime and it’s the libs that say they want to “fix” things.

            Police Depts are institutions that live forever and only have to hold off a Mayor or even a Police chief until the next election. They are as powerful or more so than many mayors.

            Most of us still have no idea what a “good” police dept looks like in terms of their policies. We have no idea if the cities that don’t have problems of bad cops – are that way explicitly because of their policies or the reverse that cities with bad policies have bad cops.

            You can’t fix this by just blaming the current mayor or a political party. That’s the problem. Too many want simple answers… these days.. they wants heads to roll thinking doing so will fix the problem or even not even care if it does if it satisfies some political want..like getting rid of someone in a political party you don’t like.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I agree with you generally on the failure to remove Chauvin from the police force. He had a bad record, but I wonder if the mayor or police chief could have removed him on the basis of those past misdeeds, of which he had been cleare, or, rather than had to wait for another incident, which unfortunately was fatal.

  28. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    And George Floyd is dead because the City of Minneapolis failed to remove Derek Chauvin but they did end single family zoning. But that’s OK with the Media and politicians. The silence continues. How many other towns, cities and counties have similar people on their police forces?

    How will giving public sector labor unions much more power help this situation? Don’t ask. They make campaign contributions and endorsements.

    Move the Confederate statutes to museums.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I agree with you generally on the failure to remove Chauvin from the police force. He had a bad record, but I wonder if the mayor or police chief could have removed him on the basis of those past misdeeds, of which he had been cleare, or, rather than had to wait for another incident, which unfortunately was fatal.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      re: ” How many other towns, cities and counties have similar people on their police forces?”

      isn’t this at least somewhat of the point of the protests?

      so I asked the question earlier and that is what rules are missing
      that would have resulted in the removal of Chauvin before he did this?

      Is it rules not in place or what?

      bonus question: the three that were compicit – should they have also
      been identified earlier and removed before they failed in their duty?

      how do we identify these kinds of folks and remove them before they do harm?

      I also posted a chart showing statistics on cities with regard to this kind of problem and it turns out that there are quite a few cities that don’t have this problem. Do we give them credit also for doing what they did do to prevent this kind of violence? Do they have better policies?

      If they are also Democratic cities does that mean that the Dem approach to this problem “works” also? So the Dem policies in those cities are “good” even if they are leftists?

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        Jacob Frey, born in Arlington and raised in Fairfax, campaigned in 2017 that the existing city administration had failed to identify and remove bad cops (cops with high levels of bad conduct) based, in large part on two police shootings – one involving white on black and the second black on white. Ergo, Frey was arguing that the rules in place were sufficient to remove bad cops. OK so far?

        He takes office in 2018, appoints his police chief. But does not take any action on Chauvin or Thao despite his criticism of defeated Mayor Hodges. Still with me?

        Flip to May 25, 2020, George Floyd is arrested for allegedly passing counterfeit money. He resists arrest and being placed in a squad car. Four cops move to subdue him. One must expect some force. But they had him down on the street with Chauvin’s knee in Floyd’s neck for more than 8 minutes. Accepted police tactics do not include placing a knee in a an arrestee’s neck. Floyd wasn’t armed. The other three officers do nothing to stop Chauvin. Floyd dies. Two final autopsies conclude that the knee in the neck caused his death.

        This is not about what other cities are doing or not doing. It’s about the murder of black man in police custody using tactics that are not sanctioned. It’s also about a mayor who campaigned on identifying cops with records of brutality and getting them off the force. Frey who hammered Mayor Hodge for failing to do this didn’t do this. And he stays on the job with virtually no criticism.

        We can look at other cities. But the fact remains: Had Frey done what he said he would do, George Floyd would most likely be alive today. He’s getting a pass because he is a woke Democrat. Dollars to donuts that, if Peter had a candid discussion with his buddy Hiatt at the Post, Hiatt would say “of course. Orangeman bad.”

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I do not know what constitutes a bad cop BEFORE he/she does something that confirms it.

          I do not have a clue how many like Chauvin remain on the force or how we would be able to identify them.

          You can fire the Mayor and fire the Police Chief but if you yourelf cannot tell them to identify the bad cops prior to their bad acts – then how/why would you expect any of them to know also?

          Yes.. Organgeman works this way.. he just hires and fires if they displease him – it don’t really matter if they’re doing anything else right or wrong – just that they did not please him…

          that’s not a way to fix the police issue.

          1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Make a contribution to Jacob Frey’s reelection campaign. He can do no wrong in your eyes.

            The City had Chauvin’s and all the other police officers’ records. And since Frey attacked his 2017 mayoral opponent, incumbent Betsy Hodge, as failing to get rid of bad cops, one might think that in more than two years, Frey might have instructed an aide or his brand new police chief to identify which police officers have a large number of community complaints, asked for further investigations and started proceedings to remove the guy and any others like him.

            It’s like JFK would have shut down NASA right after he said the U.S. was going to the moon in the 1960s. Or Reagan proposing major defense cuts after he criticized détente as a failure and the USSR a dangerous foe.

            Jacob Frey is a virtue-signaler who “beat up” his opponent on police reform and then ignored the problem. And George Floyd is dead as a result.

            We need major changes in policing. We cannot have trigger, club or fist-happy police officers. We cannot have police officers that look for black people while ignoring white people doing the same thing. But change can happen only at the local level. Local officials need to identify bad cops and get rid of them. What can be done at a state or local level is to list the fired cops and provide links to the facts that support the firings. Local officials need to have arms length relations with labor unions. And they also need to defend cops when the facts show complaints are wrong. It’s hard, dirty work, something that virtue-signaling won’t fix.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            There are two parts to this. The political and the institutional.

            The political is folks who run for office – both Dem and GOP that promise to do things. It’s often the GOP who is promising law and order and getting the cops to be tougher on crime and it’s the libs that say they want to “fix” things.

            Police Depts are institutions that live forever and only have to hold off a Mayor or even a Police chief until the next election. They are as powerful or more so than many mayors.

            Most of us still have no idea what a “good” police dept looks like in terms of their policies. We have no idea if the cities that don’t have problems of bad cops – are that way explicitly because of their policies or the reverse that cities with bad policies have bad cops.

            You can’t fix this by just blaming the current mayor or a political party. That’s the problem. Too many want simple answers… these days.. they wants heads to roll thinking doing so will fix the problem or even not even care if it does if it satisfies some political want..like getting rid of someone in a political party you don’t like.

  29. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    The Richmond elite have had years to address this obvious debacle. Richmond could have become a living museum of the US Civil War but chose not to do so. Instead, Richmond glorified the Confederacy alone. Statues of seemingly valiant, brave Confederate officers riding high on mighty steeds. Where is the statue of Robert E Lee surrendering to US Grant? Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery.

    Richmond would have been the perfect city to tell the whole story of America’s slaveholding past to the present. From the first slaves landing on Virginia shores in 1619 through centuries of bondage, a Declaration of Independence that forgot freedom for slaves to a Civil War that finally ended the abhorrent institution of slavery to Massive Resistance to electing the first black governor from any state post-Reconstruction.

    But no – the Richmond elite couldn’t even easily put up a statue of Arthur Ashe. Instead, they had to glorify the Confederacy alone.

    The other point to remember is that these monuments to the Confederacy were not erected in the immediate aftermath of the US Civil War. They were erected decades later. Lots of these statues were erected – all over the south. Why? Why did 50 years elapse before the South needed hundreds of statues of Robert E Lee? Pure racism. The early 1900s marked the end of reconstruction and the start of Jim Crow. In what was clearly a mistake by the federal government Virginia’s elite were once again allowed to govern the state. The unfathomably racist state constitution of 1902 and a spate of Confederate statues were the result. The Carpetbaggers of the north did a much better job running the state than the racist asshats of the Byrd Machine.

    One more statue left to get – the one of the racist tyrannical Harry Byrd. Throw it into the James River.

    One more action for Northam – move the state capital from Richmond to Charlottesville. Why should the capital of the Confederacy be the capital of modern Virginia?

    1. MAdams Avatar

      Let’s move the Capital back to Williamsburg and give people a proper history lesson.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I just never saw the Richmond/Virginia plantation “elite” the way you do. Would you call Kaine and Warner products of the plantation elite?

      But I do very much agree on the racism part… Virginia has a long history of racism and now a long history of denial of it..

      it’s like most of them do not realize where all these Confederate statues came from – it’s “heritage” ….

      I’m trying to remember the LAST state to move a capitol… it’s gotta be a very rare thing… no?

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        Neither Kaine nor Warner. Nor McDonnell for that matter, although McDonnell was either a convert or darn close. The Plantation Elite is both a group of people as well as a way of thinking. Not all people born into the Plantation Elite remain there. Not all people in the Plantation Elite were born into that caste.

        Key attributes:

        1. The philosophy that the state should be run by a small group of “the enlightened” with as little interference from the citizenry as possible. Anti-republican, anti-democratic.
        2. A belief that members of the Plantation Elite are inherently honest based on their upbringing or adopted philosophy and need neither oversight nor requirements for transparency. The Virginia Way.
        3. Nepotism is not only acceptable but beneficial since it replenishes the ranks of the Plantation Elite. The Byrds.
        4. The inability or unwillingness to admit mistakes – either by the elite or by the state. Northam’s infanticide comments / the statues in Richmond.
        5. An anal retentive need to micro-manage the people of Virginia who, in the minds of the elite, are far too stupid to attend to their own affairs. Strict implementation of Dillon’s Rule.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yup. thanks… some might say shorthand: “The Virginia Way”.

          I’ve long advocated citizen-initiated referendum but learned long ago from more than one GA rep that it was a “no go” but that was back when the GOP had their “Vulcan Grip”…..

          Give the Dems credit this go-round – they DID give the localities more freedom to enact taxes but did require concurrence at the local level.

          I just don’t see Dillons as that restrictive anymore and I see problems with home rule in terms of inconsistent rules and laws between counties and prefer laws and policies that promote regionalism… work together as a region… to accomplish economic development, transportation, etc.. not as individual fiefdoms and not dictated by the state.

    3. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      There’s no statue to James Longstreet. The “Lost Cause” was for Democrats only, and post-war he became a Republican!

      1. MAdams Avatar

        I think what is lost on most is that the Generals on either side of that conflict were very much friends prior too. That that conflict forced them to battle in some cases their best friends.

      2. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        John S Mosby too. Anti-slavery but fought for the South out of a sense of “nationalism” where the “nation” was Virginia. Ran US Grant’s presidential campaign in Virginia after the war. “There was more vindictiveness shown to me by the Virginia people for my voting for Grant than the North showed to me for fighting four years against him.”

        In his many writings the educated Mosby repeatedly claimed that the Civil Was was about slavery. He lived until 1916 and was quite animated against those who tried to rewrite history by claiming that the Civil War, in which Mosby bravely fought, was not about slavery.

        The statues in Richmond are less a tribute to the Confederacy than a testament to the growing racism in Virginia and the rest of the South from about 1900 – 1935. The statues were erected to intimidate not to educate or illuminate. “This is still the South” was the message from the white establishment to the black citizens. Given that, I don’t see the statues as honoring the men who they represented.

  30. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    The Richmond elite have had years to address this obvious debacle. Richmond could have become a living museum of the US Civil War but chose not to do so. Instead, Richmond glorified the Confederacy alone. Statues of seemingly valiant, brave Confederate officers riding high on mighty steeds. Where is the statue of Robert E Lee surrendering to US Grant? Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery.

    Richmond would have been the perfect city to tell the whole story of America’s slaveholding past to the present. From the first slaves landing on Virginia shores in 1619 through centuries of bondage, a Declaration of Independence that forgot freedom for slaves to a Civil War that finally ended the abhorrent institution of slavery to Massive Resistance to electing the first black governor from any state post-Reconstruction.

    But no – the Richmond elite couldn’t even easily put up a statue of Arthur Ashe. Instead, they had to glorify the Confederacy alone.

    The other point to remember is that these monuments to the Confederacy were not erected in the immediate aftermath of the US Civil War. They were erected decades later. Lots of these statues were erected – all over the south. Why? Why did 50 years elapse before the South needed hundreds of statues of Robert E Lee? Pure racism. The early 1900s marked the end of reconstruction and the start of Jim Crow. In what was clearly a mistake by the federal government Virginia’s elite were once again allowed to govern the state. The unfathomably racist state constitution of 1902 and a spate of Confederate statues were the result. The Carpetbaggers of the north did a much better job running the state than the racist asshats of the Byrd Machine.

    One more statue left to get – the one of the racist tyrannical Harry Byrd. Throw it into the James River.

    One more action for Northam – move the state capital from Richmond to Charlottesville. Why should the capital of the Confederacy be the capital of modern Virginia?

    1. MAdams Avatar

      Let’s move the Capital back to Williamsburg and give people a proper history lesson.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I just never saw the Richmond/Virginia plantation “elite” the way you do. Would you call Kaine and Warner products of the plantation elite?

      But I do very much agree on the racism part… Virginia has a long history of racism and now a long history of denial of it..

      it’s like most of them do not realize where all these Confederate statues came from – it’s “heritage” ….

      I’m trying to remember the LAST state to move a capitol… it’s gotta be a very rare thing… no?

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        Neither Kaine nor Warner. Nor McDonnell for that matter, although McDonnell was either a convert or darn close. The Plantation Elite is both a group of people as well as a way of thinking. Not all people born into the Plantation Elite remain there. Not all people in the Plantation Elite were born into that caste.

        Key attributes:

        1. The philosophy that the state should be run by a small group of “the enlightened” with as little interference from the citizenry as possible. Anti-republican, anti-democratic.
        2. A belief that members of the Plantation Elite are inherently honest based on their upbringing or adopted philosophy and need neither oversight nor requirements for transparency. The Virginia Way.
        3. Nepotism is not only acceptable but beneficial since it replenishes the ranks of the Plantation Elite. The Byrds.
        4. The inability or unwillingness to admit mistakes – either by the elite or by the state. Northam’s infanticide comments / the statues in Richmond.
        5. An anal retentive need to micro-manage the people of Virginia who, in the minds of the elite, are far too stupid to attend to their own affairs. Strict implementation of Dillon’s Rule.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yup. thanks… some might say shorthand: “The Virginia Way”.

          I’ve long advocated citizen-initiated referendum but learned long ago from more than one GA rep that it was a “no go” but that was back when the GOP had their “Vulcan Grip”…..

          Give the Dems credit this go-round – they DID give the localities more freedom to enact taxes but did require concurrence at the local level.

          I just don’t see Dillons as that restrictive anymore and I see problems with home rule in terms of inconsistent rules and laws between counties and prefer laws and policies that promote regionalism… work together as a region… to accomplish economic development, transportation, etc.. not as individual fiefdoms and not dictated by the state.

    3. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      There’s no statue to James Longstreet. The “Lost Cause” was for Democrats only, and post-war he became a Republican!

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        John S Mosby too. Anti-slavery but fought for the South out of a sense of “nationalism” where the “nation” was Virginia. Ran US Grant’s presidential campaign in Virginia after the war. “There was more vindictiveness shown to me by the Virginia people for my voting for Grant than the North showed to me for fighting four years against him.”

        In his many writings the educated Mosby repeatedly claimed that the Civil Was was about slavery. He lived until 1916 and was quite animated against those who tried to rewrite history by claiming that the Civil War, in which Mosby bravely fought, was not about slavery.

        The statues in Richmond are less a tribute to the Confederacy than a testament to the growing racism in Virginia and the rest of the South from about 1900 – 1935. The statues were erected to intimidate not to educate or illuminate. “This is still the South” was the message from the white establishment to the black citizens. Given that, I don’t see the statues as honoring the men who they represented.

      2. MAdams Avatar

        I think what is lost on most is that the Generals on either side of that conflict were very much friends prior too. That that conflict forced them to battle in some cases their best friends.

  31. Sara E. Carter Avatar
    Sara E. Carter

    Two short years ago, the City of Richmond took on an unwinnable task by forming the Monument Avenue Commission to determine what should happen with these landmarks. There was a public process and the outcome was that the statues should remain (except for Jefferson Davis, with good reason) and have context added. Full report here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/594bdfc3ff7c502289dd13b3/t/5b3a821788251b63fef735f7/1530561059506/MonumentAvenueCommissionFINAL.pdf
    Conclusions found on pages 32-33.
    The conclusion trod a middle ground. It was truly an olive branch- allowing the beauty of the statues to remain, but adding a context that didn’t just glorify the past or the people in it. There were some who fought the adding of context tooth and nail. Calls that history was “being destroyed” were all over the internet. Now, two years later, there will be a very different outcome. I wonder if any of those who fought the conclusions of the Commission will question if they should have been more open then.

  32. Sara E. Carter Avatar
    Sara E. Carter

    Two short years ago, the City of Richmond took on an unwinnable task by forming the Monument Avenue Commission to determine what should happen with these landmarks. There was a public process and the outcome was that the statues should remain (except for Jefferson Davis, with good reason) and have context added. Full report here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/594bdfc3ff7c502289dd13b3/t/5b3a821788251b63fef735f7/1530561059506/MonumentAvenueCommissionFINAL.pdf
    Conclusions found on pages 32-33.
    The conclusion trod a middle ground. It was truly an olive branch- allowing the beauty of the statues to remain, but adding a context that didn’t just glorify the past or the people in it. There were some who fought the adding of context tooth and nail. Calls that history was “being destroyed” were all over the internet. Now, two years later, there will be a very different outcome. I wonder if any of those who fought the conclusions of the Commission will question if they should have been more open then.

  33. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    I won a few trophies in my sailboat racing days. I only displayed the 1st Place ones on the mantle.

    But, l suppose, if you only ever take a 2nd Place, then it would be appropriate to display it.

  34. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    I won a few trophies in my sailboat racing days. I only displayed the 1st Place ones on the mantle.

    But, l suppose, if you only ever take a 2nd Place, then it would be appropriate to display it.

  35. Filed on behalf of New Kent County resident William O’Keefe:

    June 4, 2020
    Governor Ralph Northam

    Dear Governor Northam:

    I write to you as much out of sadness as disappointment over your decision to remove the Robert E Lee statue from Monument Avenue. By way of background, I am a former Republican who has lived in Virginia for almost 70 years and have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. For you to say that “Virginia made a decision not to celebrate unity, but to honor the cause of division” runs completely counter to my experience in the decades of living in the Commonwealth.

    Although I have no insight into your thought process, I view your decision to be one of political cowardice and historical ignorance that at least in the near term will prove counter-productive. Let me briefly explain the reasons for this harsh judgment.

    First, it goes well beyond the recommendation of the Commission that was appointed to study the fate of the Monument Avenue statues. Second, it will be widely seen as capitulating to intimidation. I believe that once you give in to intimidation, you encourage the very acts that you oppose. Third, rather than heal it will harden the beliefs of racists and encourage some Republicans who reject Trump and Trumpism to vote for him in November.

    Fourth and to me most important, it distorts the history of the man, Robert E Lee. If you will take the time to study his life, you will come to understand that he did not join the confederacy to perpetuate slavery It has been documented that like Jefferson, he opposed slavery and made the decision that he could not “lift his sword” against Virginia which he referred to as his country. His decision should be viewed in the context of the beliefs and values of the time; not the distortions that are driving contemporary political correctness.

    While the preservation of slavery was a driving force for secession, it was not the only one. Many, like Lee believed in states rights which had a far different meaning than it did during the history of segregation. Lee’s life after the Civil War was dedicated to healing and education. President Eisenhower said the following about Lee:
    “General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens… Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history.

    “From deep conviction, I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s calibre would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities, including his devotion to this land as revealed in his painstaking efforts to help heal the Nation’s wounds once the bitter struggle was over, we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.”
    This is the context that should be provided instead of removal. It certainly is a different portrait of Lee t than you are perpetuating. Your decision would be easier to accept if you said that you were moving the statue to the Civil War Museum at Tredegar.

    Lastly, I ask where does this stop? Are Thomas Jefferson or George Washington next? By what criteria do you distinguish our monuments to them from the one for Robert E Lee? I sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision and focus instead on the hard and long term work of advancing the goal of healing and diminishing racism.

    Sincerely,

    William O’Keefe

  36. Filed on behalf of New Kent County resident William O’Keefe:

    June 4, 2020
    Governor Ralph Northam

    Dear Governor Northam:

    I write to you as much out of sadness as disappointment over your decision to remove the Robert E Lee statue from Monument Avenue. By way of background, I am a former Republican who has lived in Virginia for almost 70 years and have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. For you to say that “Virginia made a decision not to celebrate unity, but to honor the cause of division” runs completely counter to my experience in the decades of living in the Commonwealth.

    Although I have no insight into your thought process, I view your decision to be one of political cowardice and historical ignorance that at least in the near term will prove counter-productive. Let me briefly explain the reasons for this harsh judgment.

    First, it goes well beyond the recommendation of the Commission that was appointed to study the fate of the Monument Avenue statues. Second, it will be widely seen as capitulating to intimidation. I believe that once you give in to intimidation, you encourage the very acts that you oppose. Third, rather than heal it will harden the beliefs of racists and encourage some Republicans who reject Trump and Trumpism to vote for him in November.

    Fourth and to me most important, it distorts the history of the man, Robert E Lee. If you will take the time to study his life, you will come to understand that he did not join the confederacy to perpetuate slavery It has been documented that like Jefferson, he opposed slavery and made the decision that he could not “lift his sword” against Virginia which he referred to as his country. His decision should be viewed in the context of the beliefs and values of the time; not the distortions that are driving contemporary political correctness.

    While the preservation of slavery was a driving force for secession, it was not the only one. Many, like Lee believed in states rights which had a far different meaning than it did during the history of segregation. Lee’s life after the Civil War was dedicated to healing and education. President Eisenhower said the following about Lee:
    “General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens… Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history.

    “From deep conviction, I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s calibre would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities, including his devotion to this land as revealed in his painstaking efforts to help heal the Nation’s wounds once the bitter struggle was over, we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.”
    This is the context that should be provided instead of removal. It certainly is a different portrait of Lee t than you are perpetuating. Your decision would be easier to accept if you said that you were moving the statue to the Civil War Museum at Tredegar.

    Lastly, I ask where does this stop? Are Thomas Jefferson or George Washington next? By what criteria do you distinguish our monuments to them from the one for Robert E Lee? I sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision and focus instead on the hard and long term work of advancing the goal of healing and diminishing racism.

    Sincerely,

    William O’Keefe

  37. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    O’Keefe, I too once suffered from the notion Lee opposed slavery, but not true. The most famous evidence was a court suit he instituted to overturn a will that manumitted a number of slaves, seeking to void the wishes of the decedent. For the most part the true abolitionist Virginians remained loyal, if often quiet about it.

    https://www.historynet.com/robert-e-lee-slavery.htm Reprint from Civil War Times.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Forget the lawsuit. His own sister told people how he felt about slavery. It’s in her contemporaneous diary and letters.

  38. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
    UpAgnstTheWall

    If white folks wanted the monuments to stay they shouldn’t have abandoned the city in the first place. These would have been removed much sooner had the state conservatives not required the General Assembly to sign off.

    And of course The Great Society barely had the opportunity to get off the ground before conservatives started undermining it. Four years of Johnson then right years of Nixon/Does then four years of Carter then the Reagan Revolution. The truth is there were successes that began being unraveled in the 80s:
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/us-civil-rights-report-kerner-commission

  39. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I support the move by Governor Northam to remove the Lee statue on Monument Avenue, but I don’t like the timing.

    That being said, let me set out my credentials. I was born and raised in Southside Virginia. My ancestors owned slaves. They fought in the Civil War. Like all Virginia kids growing up in the ‘50s, I was surrounded by veneration of Robert E. Lee and stories of the glories of the Confederacy. I was a member of the Children of the Confederacy, a unit of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Douglas Southall Freeman’s R.E. Lee and Lee’s Lieutenants were on my father’s bookshelves and are now on mine, as is the more recent biography of Stonewall Jackson by James Robertson.

    It is time that Virginians recognize the Civil War for what it really was—an attempt to protect slavery. Robert E. Lee and the other generals and soldiers of the Confederacy were in armed conflict with the United States government. To continue to see it as the Lost Cause is, in the words of George Thomas, a Virginian who was a distinguished general in the Union Army, “a species of political cant, whereby the crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand in hand with the defenders of the government, thus wiping out with their own hands their own stains.”

    Society erects statutes to persons and causes it wishes to honor and hold as examples to future generations. It is time to take down the statues glorifying the leading Virginians in the Civil War. They do not represent the ideals and causes we want to pass on to our children. Some will say that taking down the statues is erasing history. The history will still be there after the statues are gone. There are many lessons we can learn from the history of the Civil War, without glorifying the reasons for it and deifying the Confederate generals who led it.

    As for the timing, removing the monument now looks too much like giving in to looting and vandalism.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      That was an earnest narrative. Thanks.

      I think if there had not been prior activity about the statues that the timing would be seen as pandering and worse.

      I was born in Virginia and went to school in Virginia when the schools were segregated and when young I saw the statues as memorials to great men who fought for a cause they believed in… At that time, I did not know about Jim Crow nor the role it played in erecting the statues. As I recall Jim Crow was NOT taught in my civics class.

      We have some memorials up our way to Matthew Fontaine Maury. I do not know if they were also erected by UDC or allied but people seem less reactive towards his memory – perhaps because some don’t know much history… but he had a reputation beyond the Confederacy.

      I listen to black folks on issues. If they say the status are an insult to them AND they actually were put up by UDC during Jim Crow – I just don’t see how they can be defended.. now or before to be honest.

      By the way – we STILL have a school called Robert E. Lee Elementary at Spotsylvania Courthouse just a few miles from Bloody Angle – which has several stone memorials to the soldiers but no Generals on Horseback.

  40. Nancy — that is not the definition of systemic racism found in any dictionary.

  41. Congratulations, LarryG and Nancy Naïve, you have once again managed to divert the dialogue away from the post, which does NOT defend the Civil War statues. At no point have you disputed the point that removing the statues is a purely symbolic gesture that changes nothing in peoples’ lives. Nor have you disputed the failure of Great Society institutions to address racial equity (Jim Loving gave it a try, but there was little follow-up). Nor have you addressed what comes next legislatively.

    Tactic One: Distract by changing the subject
    Tactic Two: Make stuff up
    Tactic Three: Attack the source
    Tactic Four: Engage in sarcasm

    I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      you must have missed this and it was very much on point:

      re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

      Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.

      Also, other things like education and poverty have also changed for the better but we are not finished yet.

      Finally, I dunno about the idea that Govt has “failed’ because it has not allowed the free market to “fix” things like health care and education.

      No other developed country on the planet has a free-market system that provides health care and public education… it’s all government – and unlike us – they have not “failed”. They all live longer than us and they all score higher an academic scales. Our folks call that “socialism” and insist that if our govt was “better” the “free market” would “work”.

      These are the folks that supposedly should take over from the leftists and set things right!”

      no distractions at all – directly in response to your points.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Jim – you are attacking the commentors..not their points… what gives? Good Lord!

      “I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.”

      AND you’re actually inviting more attacks from others!

    3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      A symbolic gesture of removing symbolic gestures? Okay.

      Actually, there’s nothing symbolic about it. They are literally, not figuratively, taking them down. I cannot fathom their motives, just farewell to bad rubbish. And, if the timing seems like they are taking advantage of the situation, maybe it’s because the defenders of these monuments to racism are finally put in a position where THEY cannot take advantage of the situation.

      It’s like after each kiddie massacre. “Now is the time for thoughts and prayers, not the time for gun control discussion.”

      Yeah, well.

      Changing the subject? Hell, I’m old. What we’re we talking about?

      Make stuff up? What, you think I went back in time and wrote that letter for Lee? Or maybe I ran over the people in Charlottesville to defend their statue.

      Attack the source? What source? The Daughters of thr Confedracy?

      Sarcasm? Nah, that’s not sarcasm. It’s witty repartee.

  42. Acbar Avatar

    The most sensible comment I’ve seen is from DJR, above — let me repeat this part:

    “Richmond could have become a living museum of the US Civil War but chose not to do so. Instead, Richmond glorified the Confederacy alone. Statues of seemingly valiant, brave Confederate officers riding high on mighty steeds. Where is the statue of Robert E Lee surrendering to US Grant? Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery.Where is the other side of the story? You know, the side where the South loses an insurrection that was, in large part, about slavery. Richmond would have been the perfect city to tell the whole story of America’s slaveholding past to the present. ”

    Exactly. But those who cling to the “Lost Cause” are now reaping the benefits of their one-sided commitment to it. Now this part of our history is not balanced by another, wider view, but suppressed, hidden, not to be discussed.

    What possible good does it do to pretend a portion of our collective history cannot be talked about? What possible good can it do to talk only about slavery as an unpardonable evil, but not at the same time to understand and — yes, discuss — the agricultural and economic and social imperatives of southern US life over the past 200 years and its achievements — and clearly there were some — and the institutions that arose there for the greater good, as well as its manifest failings? It’s pretty clear that we cannot have that conversation now, mainly because the Lost Cause folks have not yet allowed it to happen, and we are seeing the only possible peaceable alternative to that play out, here: the other side, too, gets its exclusive time to be heard, and after a generation or two the reaction to suppressing history will overcome the one-sidedness of that conversation too, and we will get back to discussing what happened with less passion and more historical detachment and a sense of context on both sides. This reminds me of the debate within Germany dealing with its own history of the Nazi years.
    Meanwhile, we are engaged in scrubbing away history itself, and that is both irrational and unsustainable in the long run.

  43. Acbar Avatar

    JB, you say, “I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.” Fair enough. But it’s unfair for your thesis as well as Jim Loving’s to escape the same sort of criticism. UATW’s reference to the Kerner Commission report is apt, here.

    Steve, you are so correct that Longstreet was cast out as a pariah for daring to join with the Republicans to actually get something done after the CW. The Lost Cause was, and remains, opposed to seeing how to accomplish things for the greater good if their own way of life is threatened.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Jim is making claims about my comment that are simply not true – they were directly on point. He labels my comments as “subterfuge” and then “invites” others to essentially engage in the same kind of behavior he just did himself.

      just to repeat my response:

      re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

      Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.”

      that was a fair comment – directly in response.. I don’t see how that can be labeled the way he did.

      1. Acbar Avatar

        I agree with your comment and your reaction — what you said is on point. But the broader point is, whatever anyone says here in good faith, it does not need to thrown back on him or her as a label, or in this case a set of three labels (“Tactic One: Distract by changing the subject; Tactic Two: Make stuff up; Tactic Three: Attack the source”) that in my view come perilously close to the ad hominem line we all know better than to cross intentionally. As for “Tactic Four,” sarcasm, I wear that one myself as a badge of honor!

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Yes. I’m taken aback… but BR has been trending that way of late IMHO.. just sad to see Jim doing it.

  44. Acbar Avatar

    JB, you say, “I invite other readers to read critically the comments of LarryG and Nancy Naïve (and anyone else), and call them to account when they engage in those subterfuges.” Fair enough. But it’s unfair for your thesis as well as Jim Loving’s to escape the same sort of criticism. UATW’s reference to the Kerner Commission report is apt, here.

    Steve, you are so correct that Longstreet was cast out as a pariah for daring to join with the Republicans to actually get something done after the CW. The Lost Cause was, and remains, opposed to seeing how to accomplish things for the greater good if their own way of life is threatened.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Jim is making claims about my comment that are simply not true – they were directly on point. He labels my comments as “subterfuge” and then “invites” others to essentially engage in the same kind of behavior he just did himself.

      just to repeat my response:

      re: ” Taking down the statues will expunge reminders of Virginia’s racist past, but it will do nothing to change the tenor of race relations in Virginia or America today. ”

      Some might say that race relations ARE changing when, indeed, physical reminders of a racist past are now being removed.”

      that was a fair comment – directly in response.. I don’t see how that can be labeled the way he did.

      1. Acbar Avatar

        I agree with your comment and your reaction — what you said is on point. But the broader point is, whatever anyone says here in good faith, it does not need to thrown back on him or her as a label, or in this case a set of three labels (“Tactic One: Distract by changing the subject; Tactic Two: Make stuff up; Tactic Three: Attack the source”) that in my view come perilously close to the ad hominem line we all know better than to cross intentionally. As for “Tactic Four,” sarcasm, I wear that one myself as a badge of honor!

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Yes. I’m taken aback… but BR has been trending that way of late IMHO.. just sad to see Jim doing it.

  45. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Yeah, this is all about virtue signalling on all sides, and not a little ass covering for Northam and Stoney….. I decided a while back it was not a hill I was going to fight on. They could go or stay based on local preference. I may regret that when the mob comes for Washington, Jefferson and the other slave-holding founders (none of whom took up arms against the Constitution.) But Washington did free his slaves, and it was Washington’s nephew who freed his Arlington Hall slaves in his will — only to have Lee resist in court (and lose, BTW, in a Confederate court!)

  46. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Yeah, this is all about virtue signalling on all sides, and not a little ass covering for Northam and Stoney….. I decided a while back it was not a hill I was going to fight on. They could go or stay based on local preference. I may regret that when the mob comes for Washington, Jefferson and the other slave-holding founders (none of whom took up arms against the Constitution.) But Washington did free his slaves, and it was Washington’s nephew who freed his Arlington Hall slaves in his will — only to have Lee resist in court (and lose, BTW, in a Confederate court!)

  47. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    “Confederate statues don’t create single-parent households. Confederate statues don’t get inner-city mothers hooked on crack. Confederate statues don’t kill people in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create leaky roofs and leave rat feces in inner-city schools. Confederate statues don’t kill children in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create unlivable, crime-ridden public housing projects. Confederate statues don’t create housing scarcity and evict renters from their homes. Confederate statues don’t create obesity, diabetes and heart disease.”

    Saying that the statues don’t contribute to these situations is like saying that radiation has nothing to do with the price decline of real estate in Chernobyl. Can’t see it. However could it possibly kill you?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I didn’t like that paragraph. I don’t agree with Jim’s occasional “don’t blame us white people” go-to theme. But you won’t find those statues in NYC, Philly or Chicago, will you?

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        What? And people don’t move? Whether those statues exist here or there, they inject poison into the body and the circulatory system does the rest. How far did that idiot drive to come to Charlottesville to park his car on that young lady?

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          Well his friends are still out there, and inspiring them to repeat the performance might be one of those pesky “unintended consequences.” Then again, politically it was a huge plus in the minds of some Democrats…maybe they want a do-over.

          And I guess that means melt them, don’t move them to cemeteries, battlefield parks or museums. Since their evil mojo might still infect….

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Okay, here’s a truth, a story, perhaps even a lesson. In 2014, I went to Six Flags over Texas for my Aunt’s funeral. Well, I went to Dallas for her funeral. I went to Six Flags the next day.

            While standing on line for The Judge Roy Scream, a young black couple were standing behind us. The woman asked of the man, “Okay, that’s the State flag, the US flag, the Mexican flag. What’s the other three?”

            He responded, “Well, that one with those gold things was the French flag when they had a king, and that’s the Spanish flag. I don’t know that last one.”

            My mind raced, “How do I handle this? Should I?” I turned and said, “It’s the Confederate flag, the official flag of state.”
            “Oh,” he said, “I guess it’s just as well they didn’t use the other one.”
            “Probably wouldn’t have been a good idea.”
            “Yes, but some places don’t care.”

            After that we started talking about the ride and I thought about the flag off I-64. Yeah, their mojo is bad.

            Bronze is highly prized in toilet fixtures. I hope the mojo doesn’t just transfer. Wow, what a mess.

  48. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    “Confederate statues don’t create single-parent households. Confederate statues don’t get inner-city mothers hooked on crack. Confederate statues don’t kill people in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create leaky roofs and leave rat feces in inner-city schools. Confederate statues don’t kill children in drive-by shootings. Confederate statues don’t create unlivable, crime-ridden public housing projects. Confederate statues don’t create housing scarcity and evict renters from their homes. Confederate statues don’t create obesity, diabetes and heart disease.”

    Saying that the statues don’t contribute to these situations is like saying that radiation has nothing to do with the price decline of real estate in Chernobyl. Can’t see it. However could it possibly kill you?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I didn’t like that paragraph. I don’t agree with Jim’s occasional “don’t blame us white people” go-to theme. But you won’t find those statues in NYC, Philly or Chicago, will you?

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        What? And people don’t move? Whether those statues exist here or there, they inject poison into the body and the circulatory system does the rest. How far did that idiot drive to come to Charlottesville to park his car on that young lady?

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          Well his friends are still out there, and inspiring them to repeat the performance might be one of those pesky “unintended consequences.” Then again, politically it was a huge plus in the minds of some Democrats…maybe they want a do-over.

          And I guess that means melt them, don’t move them to cemeteries, battlefield parks or museums. Since their evil mojo might still infect….

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Okay, here’s a truth, a story, perhaps even a lesson. In 2014, I went to Six Flags over Texas for my Aunt’s funeral. Well, I went to Dallas for her funeral. I went to Six Flags the next day.

            While standing on line for The Judge Roy Scream, a young black couple were standing behind us. The woman asked of the man, “Okay, that’s the State flag, the US flag, the Mexican flag. What’s the other three?”

            He responded, “Well, that one with those gold things was the French flag when they had a king, and that’s the Spanish flag. I don’t know that last one.”

            My mind raced, “How do I handle this? Should I?” I turned and said, “It’s the Confederate flag, the official flag of state.”
            “Oh,” he said, “I guess it’s just as well they didn’t use the other one.”
            “Probably wouldn’t have been a good idea.”
            “Yes, but some places don’t care.”

            After that we started talking about the ride and I thought about the flag off I-64. Yeah, their mojo is bad.

            Bronze is highly prized in toilet fixtures. I hope the mojo doesn’t just transfer. Wow, what a mess.

  49. kls59 Avatar

    Y’all do realize this applies to ANY monument anywhere in the state….. like the historical markers about the Knights of the Golden Horseshoe any of the roadside markers along our highways, The Victory Arch in Newport News, any WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam monument. ANY monument.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I don’t think so. The statues that were put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy and some related groups – that put them up decades after the civil war in the middle of the Jim Crow era – YES.

      but other statues – I’m not hearing that from the folks that want the statues removed.

      it’s primarily the ones that were put up during the Jim Crow era.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Very reassuring, Larry. People put them up, people tear them down. I saw cathedral art in France still defaced from that revolution. The Taliban are great destroyers of art and history.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          well not meant to be – just meant to point out what those who want them down say.

          If you REALLY want to see a mess – google “slave block controversy Fredericksburg Va”.

        2. Acbar Avatar

          Complete agree with KLS and Steve here! Look at the removal of statues in the eastern Europe by whatever faction happens to be in charge. Traditionally, to the winners go the spoils — and the right to spoil things built by others. One would hope the United States would show more respect for history than that. But apparently not.

  50. kls59 Avatar

    Y’all do realize this applies to ANY monument anywhere in the state….. like the historical markers about the Knights of the Golden Horseshoe any of the roadside markers along our highways, The Victory Arch in Newport News, any WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam monument. ANY monument.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I don’t think so. The statues that were put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy and some related groups – that put them up decades after the civil war in the middle of the Jim Crow era – YES.

      but other statues – I’m not hearing that from the folks that want the statues removed.

      it’s primarily the ones that were put up during the Jim Crow era.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Very reassuring, Larry. People put them up, people tear them down. I saw cathedral art in France still defaced from that revolution. The Taliban are great destroyers of art and history.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          well not meant to be – just meant to point out what those who want them down say.

          If you REALLY want to see a mess – google “slave block controversy Fredericksburg Va”.

        2. Acbar Avatar

          Complete agree with KLS and Steve here! Look at the removal of statues in the eastern Europe by whatever faction happens to be in charge. Traditionally, to the winners go the spoils — and the right to spoil things built by others. One would hope the United States would show more respect for history than that. But apparently not.

  51. Tom Bowden Avatar
    Tom Bowden

    Jim, you make some good points, but I think you miss the big ones. First, I’m no lefty but I think the statues should have been removed long ago. Regardless of the personal qualities or pre-war histories and accomplishments of the subjects, and regardless of the valor they displayed in battle, they fought for a cause that was morally repugnant, and, thankfully, defeated. And while there may have been other grievances that led to secession, the very instruments of secession clearly state that the predominant reason was the preservation of that odious institution. So, even if the protestors are predominantly “leftist”, they are still right – the Statues should be removed. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. As for systemic racial bias in unjustified police killings, I take no comfort in knowing that this scourge is equitably distributed without regard to race. Will you tell the Floyd family to chill out because George’s murder was not statistically significant evidence of bias? As a libertarian at heart, I applaud the protest of police killings, regardless of its statistical distribution. If black people are leading the charge, more power to them. Given the Shameful history of institutional mistreatment of blacks (Tuskegee experiment, Jim Crow, Separate but equal, untold thousands of lynchings, Anti-miscegenation statutes, forced sterilizations, and ultimately, slavery itself, to name but a few), are you really saying that black people have no legitimate beef with police killings because white people and cops get shot too?

    1. “Are you really saying that black people have no legitimate beef with police killings because white people and cops get shot too?”

      No, Tom, I’m not saying that at all. As I said in a previous post, we need to put mechanisms in place to hold police accountable any time they kill someone. There should be citizen involvement in the inquiries, and all information should be made public. At the same time, we need to be honest about how frequently these incidents occur. We have slipped into media-induced mass hysteria in which black people say they literally feel unsafe stepping outside their houses. I’m sorry, that is extremely misguided — not to mention damaging. We also need to resist the pressure from the Left to exploit this hysteria to enact all manner of counter-productive policies.

  52. Tom Bowden Avatar
    Tom Bowden

    OK, good to know. I was being a little rhetorical, as I’m sure you could tell. So let’s assume that, on average, nationwide, police shootings (justified or otherwise) do not show a systemic racial bias. That does not mean that the lack of bias is experienced uniformly. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html

  53. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    There are thousands of statues in the US that are not in any danger of being taken down and more than than there are even greater numbers of memorials like this that are not defaced and not destroyed are take down:

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BXQ21FDXtaU/USApAlxXgNI/AAAAAAAABrg/-O7NrZEr9rs/s1600/DSC_0022.JPG

    and it’s because it’s a memorial to the men to died there AND you’ll find BOTH Confederate and Union memorials primarily to the men to gave their lives here but no guys on horses in hero poses.

    No one is going to tear down Arthur Ashes memorial.. or Harriet Tubman or countless others…

    Hell, as far as I can tell…. other than the Jim Crow memorials no one is advocating tearing down anything else despite some who say that Jefferson and Washington are next. Balderdash!

    1. Acbar Avatar

      No, it will not prove to be balderdash. I wish. Let’s look back at this moment in a year.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I neglected to identify the place – it’s Bloody Angle…a place where thousands died and has both Confederate and Union memorials and not a single General astride a horse and none at Spotsylvania Courthouse either. Not sure how these places escaped the Jim Crow era statuary but it also the location of one of the first all black schools built by blacks – John Jay Wright which was originally called the Snell Training School and that “history” (not lost) is memorialized like a LOT of other history is in Virginia without statues:

        https://www.spotsylvania.k12.va.us/cms/lib/VA01918722/Centricity/Domain/38/DSC_0354-cropped.jpg

  54. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    There are thousands of statues in the US that are not in any danger of being taken down and more than than there are even greater numbers of memorials like this that are not defaced and not destroyed are take down:

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BXQ21FDXtaU/USApAlxXgNI/AAAAAAAABrg/-O7NrZEr9rs/s1600/DSC_0022.JPG

    and it’s because it’s a memorial to the men to died there AND you’ll find BOTH Confederate and Union memorials primarily to the men to gave their lives here but no guys on horses in hero poses.

    No one is going to tear down Arthur Ashes memorial.. or Harriet Tubman or countless others…

    Hell, as far as I can tell…. other than the Jim Crow memorials no one is advocating tearing down anything else despite some who say that Jefferson and Washington are next. Balderdash!

    1. Acbar Avatar

      No, it will not prove to be balderdash. I wish. Let’s look back at this moment in a year.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I neglected to identify the place – it’s Bloody Angle…a place where thousands died and has both Confederate and Union memorials and not a single General astride a horse and none at Spotsylvania Courthouse either. Not sure how these places escaped the Jim Crow era statuary but it also the location of one of the first all black schools built by blacks – John Jay Wright which was originally called the Snell Training School and that “history” (not lost) is memorialized like a LOT of other history is in Virginia without statues:

        https://www.spotsylvania.k12.va.us/cms/lib/VA01918722/Centricity/Domain/38/DSC_0354-cropped.jpg

  55. Tom Bowden Avatar
    Tom Bowden

    Jim, you make some good points, but I think you miss the big ones. First, I’m no lefty but I think the statues should have been removed long ago. Regardless of the personal qualities or pre-war histories and accomplishments of the subjects, and regardless of the valor they displayed in battle, they fought for a cause that was morally repugnant, and, thankfully, defeated. And while there may have been other grievances that led to secession, the very instruments of secession clearly state that the predominant reason was the preservation of that odious institution. So, even if the protestors are predominantly “leftist”, they are still right – the Statues should be removed. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. As for systemic racial bias in unjustified police killings, I take no comfort in knowing that this scourge is equitably distributed without regard to race. Will you tell the Floyd family to chill out because George’s murder was not statistically significant evidence of bias? As a libertarian at heart, I applaud the protest of police killings, regardless of its statistical distribution. If black people are leading the charge, more power to them. Given the Shameful history of institutional mistreatment of blacks (Tuskegee experiment, Jim Crow, Separate but equal, untold thousands of lynchings, Anti-miscegenation statutes, forced sterilizations, and ultimately, slavery itself, to name but a few), are you really saying that black people have no legitimate beef with police killings because white people and cops get shot too?

    1. “Are you really saying that black people have no legitimate beef with police killings because white people and cops get shot too?”

      No, Tom, I’m not saying that at all. As I said in a previous post, we need to put mechanisms in place to hold police accountable any time they kill someone. There should be citizen involvement in the inquiries, and all information should be made public. At the same time, we need to be honest about how frequently these incidents occur. We have slipped into media-induced mass hysteria in which black people say they literally feel unsafe stepping outside their houses. I’m sorry, that is extremely misguided — not to mention damaging. We also need to resist the pressure from the Left to exploit this hysteria to enact all manner of counter-productive policies.

  56. Tom Bowden Avatar
    Tom Bowden

    OK, good to know. I was being a little rhetorical, as I’m sure you could tell. So let’s assume that, on average, nationwide, police shootings (justified or otherwise) do not show a systemic racial bias. That does not mean that the lack of bias is experienced uniformly. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html

  57. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    It is a shame there are so few African American voices on this blog. Few females. It’s a bunch of elderly white guys talking over everyone else’s heads. African American intellectuals are never quoted. Instead we get crap like Confederate statues didn’t create ghettos. It’s Archie Bunker dressed up in a thin veneer of UVa gentility.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Well, let’s quote one!

      “We can scarcely take up a newspaper . . . that is not filled with nauseating flatteries (of Lee, from which) it would seem . . . that the soldier who kills the most men in battle, even in a bad cause, is the greatest Christian, and entitled to the highest place in heaven.” — Frederick Douglass

      And, Lee’s opinion on slavery, remembering he never freed his and his failed suit as Post by Dick;

      “I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race.” — Robert E. Lee

  58. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ok Larry. Credit where credit’s due.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      That and three bucks gets me a cup of coffee. Jim’s a friend, now a neighbor, and his heart is good. Since the Charlottesville incident, the removal of the statues was inevitable. I wish it had been a Republican to put in a bill to move them to battlefields, Hollywood Cemetery or some museum. Lee would be well placed at Appomattox, if you want context — that surrender and General Order 10 were his finest moments. Now I believe they will go into warehouses and never be seen again.

      But the modern Republican party made a deal with the Devil in the 1970s when it welcomed the fleeing Byrd Democrats. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

      And there are dangerous leftists, a biased media and the delay on this is a perfect example of failed (Democrat) government. Floyd’s death is another example of failed Democratic government. There are other hills on which I will fight.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “As ye sow, so shall ye reap.”

        Well, just the opposite, they reaped Byrd and the Dixiecrats and started sowing that poison ever since.

        But… look at what they got for it. Nixon. Such a deal!

        BTW, the next time you guys get a hankerin’ to elect another Hollywood star, please don’t.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        yep there is biased media – left and right and extremists left and right but to portray the protestors as violent looters and leftists and many misled by the media is willing ignorance or worse.

        And if you REALLY want to talk about “bias” in media – consider these statues put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy in the same era that blacks were being lynched to send a message to blacks.

        That’s not only bias in the “media”, which some also call art – it’s misrepresenting history – as well as fomenting racism and further mistreatment of blacks.

        Then today, some say that by removing the statues we are removing “history” – makes one wonder what “history” lost is being mourned and what media “lies” and leftist propaganda have been used to mislead those who want the statues removed.

      3. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        See America? You try to move to the middle and open discussion and get pissed on. All part of the plan…..

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: open discussion : good grief:

          Remember the original post that ties the removal of the statues to the actual degradation of America with “failed” govt, and “failed” health care and affordable college, housing and policies to keep black people virtual slaves to entitlements, etc, etc,

          Linked all of that together is one big hairball.

          Just the issue of the statues would have been enough but dragged kicking and screaming is not exactly “moving to the middle”.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I fairly characterized the content of your blog post. You started off talking about the statues and then went to your stock narrative about failed govt, healthcare, education, etc..

            You have written many, many blog posts about these subjects and this post was more or less along the same lines – a recitation of many early blog posts on these subjects.

            I purposely quoted the passages that I commented on and apparently others here believe I was on point.

            Isn’t this another version of nah, nah, nah?

  59. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    It is a shame there are so few African American voices on this blog. Few females. It’s a bunch of elderly white guys talking over everyone else’s heads. African American intellectuals are never quoted. Instead we get crap like Confederate statues didn’t create ghettos. It’s Archie Bunker dressed up in a thin veneer of UVa gentility.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Well, let’s quote one!

      “We can scarcely take up a newspaper . . . that is not filled with nauseating flatteries (of Lee, from which) it would seem . . . that the soldier who kills the most men in battle, even in a bad cause, is the greatest Christian, and entitled to the highest place in heaven.” — Frederick Douglass

      And, Lee’s opinion on slavery, remembering he never freed his and his failed suit as Post by Dick;

      “I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race.” — Robert E. Lee

  60. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Give Mr. Haner some credit… Here’s something from three years ago when he did call Mr. Bacon to task on race:

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/a-more-uplifting-narrative-about-race/#comments

    There also used to be at least one black commentator who gave up and left.

    Jim apparently sees the removal of the statues as further erosion of society and tied to liberals, biased media and failed govt…

    yep.. all of that was in that one post about the statue of Lee coming down…

  61. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Give Mr. Haner some credit… Here’s something from three years ago when he did call Mr. Bacon to task on race:

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/a-more-uplifting-narrative-about-race/#comments

    There also used to be at least one black commentator who gave up and left.

    Jim apparently sees the removal of the statues as further erosion of society and tied to liberals, biased media and failed govt…

    yep.. all of that was in that one post about the statue of Lee coming down…

  62. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ok Larry. Credit where credit’s due.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      That and three bucks gets me a cup of coffee. Jim’s a friend, now a neighbor, and his heart is good. Since the Charlottesville incident, the removal of the statues was inevitable. I wish it had been a Republican to put in a bill to move them to battlefields, Hollywood Cemetery or some museum. Lee would be well placed at Appomattox, if you want context — that surrender and General Order 10 were his finest moments. Now I believe they will go into warehouses and never be seen again.

      But the modern Republican party made a deal with the Devil in the 1970s when it welcomed the fleeing Byrd Democrats. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

      And there are dangerous leftists, a biased media and the delay on this is a perfect example of failed (Democrat) government. Floyd’s death is another example of failed Democratic government. There are other hills on which I will fight.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “As ye sow, so shall ye reap.”

        Well, just the opposite, they reaped Byrd and the Dixiecrats and started sowing that poison ever since.

        But… look at what they got for it. Nixon. Such a deal!

        BTW, the next time you guys get a hankerin’ to elect another Hollywood star, please don’t.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        yep there is biased media – left and right and extremists left and right but to portray the protestors as violent looters and leftists and many misled by the media is willing ignorance or worse.

        And if you REALLY want to talk about “bias” in media – consider these statues put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy in the same era that blacks were being lynched to send a message to blacks.

        That’s not only bias in the “media”, which some also call art – it’s misrepresenting history – as well as fomenting racism and further mistreatment of blacks.

        Then today, some say that by removing the statues we are removing “history” – makes one wonder what “history” lost is being mourned and what media “lies” and leftist propaganda have been used to mislead those who want the statues removed.

      3. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        See America? You try to move to the middle and open discussion and get pissed on. All part of the plan…..

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: open discussion : good grief:

          Remember the original post that ties the removal of the statues to the actual degradation of America with “failed” govt, and “failed” health care and affordable college, housing and policies to keep black people virtual slaves to entitlements, etc, etc,

          Linked all of that together is one big hairball.

          Just the issue of the statues would have been enough but dragged kicking and screaming is not exactly “moving to the middle”.

          1. Larry, when you learn to honestly and accurately characterize the statements made by other participants on this blog (including me), I will be happy to engage. However, I cannot spend hours of my time following in your footsteps and correcting you. That would be a full-time job.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I fairly characterized the content of your blog post. You started off talking about the statues and then went to your stock narrative about failed govt, healthcare, education, etc..

            You have written many, many blog posts about these subjects and this post was more or less along the same lines – a recitation of many early blog posts on these subjects.

            I purposely quoted the passages that I commented on and apparently others here believe I was on point.

            Isn’t this another version of nah, nah, nah?

  63. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Steve Haner. I can send you three bucks. Are you on Venmo?

  64. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Steve Haner. I can send you three bucks. Are you on Venmo?

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