The SOL Debate: Bringing Asians into the Equation

by James A. Bacon

And the debate goes on…Yesterday, in “Yes, Virginia, Culture Does Matter in School Performance,” I argued based on the statewide pass rate for the Standards of Learning that disadvantaged Hispanic school children who had proficiency in English actually out-performed disadvantaged white school children (and black as well). I hypothesized that the difference could be attributed to culture, perhaps the work ethic of poor immigrant families.

The blogger Life On the Fall Line countered by suggesting that the superior statewide performance of disadvantaged, English-proficient Hispanics could be attributed to the fact that nearly three-fifths of Virginia’s Hispanic population resides in Northern Virginia, which spends more money per pupil on schools, while most whites and blacks live downstate. “So,” he concluded, “yes, Virginia, schools with superior financial resources matter.”

That sounded like a potentially valid point, so I decided to drill deeper into the Virginia Department of Education “Virginia SOL Assessment Build-A-Table,” to see if that was the case. The chart below compares disadvantaged, English-proficient whites and Hispanics in Fairfax County, Northern Virginia’s largest school division. And for yucks, I threw in disadvantaged, English-proficient Asians and blacks.

Fairfax_SOLs

It turns out that Life on the Fall Line had a point. While poor, English-proficient Hispanics still out-performed their white counterparts, it was by such a narrow margin — less than one percentage point — that it could well fall into the margin of error.

But another stark finding jumps out from this table. Poor Asian kids kicked every other group’s academic ass by a wide margin. These are poor kids, mind you, not the sons and daughters of Indian software engineers and PhDs, whom you’d expect to excel. And, sadly, poor blacks under-performed by an equally large margin.

The response of the structuralists (those who believe that institutional structures discriminate against blacks) will be to say, “Drill down deeper! Look at the allocation of resources school by school.” That would be a worthwhile exercise for anyone who has the energy to do it. I welcome any contributions. But if differences in performance are mainly structural, not cultural, someone needs to explain the exceptional performance of Asian students. Do poor Asian kids attend the best schools with greater resources? If so, how do they pull it off? If they’re disadvantaged, they have no greater resources than their poor white, Hispanic or black peers to move into the top school districts.

While we’re at it, if school resources were the decisive factor, how do we explain that poor Hispanics outperform poor blacks? Do Hispanics not face as much discrimination and institutional racism as blacks?

From my reading of the data, it looks like once Hispanic students master English, they pass the SOLs at the same rate as white students. As I said before, that’s great news. It suggests that Hispanics are rapidly assimilating into mainstream Virginia culture. However, that still leaves the matter of Asians and blacks. How do we explain the persistent superior performance of one group and the under-performance of the other, if not in part by culture?


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57 responses to “The SOL Debate: Bringing Asians into the Equation”

  1. ” How do we explain the persistent superior performance of one group and the under-performance of the other, if not by culture?”

    by NOT looking at aggregate district-level data and recognizing the disparities between schools in the same district!

    ‘structural” is not some “liberal-progressive” theory – it’s actual evidence!

    so a question for you – how come there are schools in Henrico where the Asian enrollment far exceeds the black enrollment? To what would you attribute that to?

    http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0189000133/school.aspx

    12% Asian and 2% black… how does that work? how do you explain it?

  2. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Can you not go to that site (VDs)OE’and pull up SOL scores by school, race and grade?

    You can also go to
    http://bi.vita.virginia.gov/doe_bi/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=Main&subRptName=Fallmembership
    for better enrollment data.

    1. you can. Can the average person who has a kid even know how to do that?

      this is the point.

      we have a narrative that pushes the idea that district level data is representative of the district schools – and it’s not.

      and yet how many parents and citizens in those school districts know this or how to get the specific data?

      Most folks cut to the chase they know the neighborhood schools for the affluent parts of the county are where the best schools are – if they can afford to be in that district. Others – those who do not have good education themselves – don’t usually have a clue.

  3. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Should read VDOE’s

  4. IF school districts were truly honest about the disparities – including DOE – one could get a side-by-side comparison of the schools and not have to do a separate retrieve on each one or somehow figure out that DOE has provided the build-a-table tool – ….

    the average parent has no idea that the schools within a district are so disparate in performance – and in resources provided.

    that pretty much neuters any accountability for their policies.

    the school systems basically – systematically evade any disclosures that would reveal the disparities and it’s readily apparent with respect to what info is disclosed – and DOE is complicit.

  5. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    I see where you are coming from, however there is so much reporting requiring so much time from staff and so much added costs that I am not sure you could ever discern data that would prove insightful to the questions you ask. No two classes/schools/divisions will contain the same number of minorities/E.D.s/teacher salaries/maintenance costs etc. I wish you well in your research.

    1. HCJ – you already have to report this data – to the Feds.. and yet it is copied to citizens..

      it’s not like you are asked to provide new data – only the data you already have to report.

      how can you expect citizens to participate meaningfully in the affairs of the schools that they pay for with their taxes when your attitude is that it’s not your duty?

      what is your duty?

      do you see why people get involved in tea party politics?

      you spend taxpayer monies and yet you feel not accountability to them.

      ouch!

    2. HCJ – you already have to report this data – to the Feds.. and yet it is copied to citizens..

      it’s not like you are asked to provide new data – only the data you already have to report.

      how can you expect citizens to participate meaningfully in the affairs of the schools that they pay for with their taxes when your attitude is that it’s not your duty?

      what is your duty?

      do you see why people get involved in tea party politics?

      you spend taxpayer monies and yet you seem to feel no accountability to them.

      ouch!

  6. people can go to 3rd party sites that have the data for their neighborhood schools because that data was reported to the state and feds.

    yet the local school systems do not report to local taxpayers -the same info they already created and delivered to DOE and the Feds.

    the data is already created – but not reported to local citizens.

  7. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Shoot, I can’t even get my schools to report on the SOLs…maybe because our black students have the 2nd lowest average passing rate in the state. But where is this 3rd party data that you mention? Is there really a place to find per school expenditures?

  8. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    How many top high schools do you have…none in Lynchburg.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/27/america-s-top-high-schools.1.html

    1. how does this information get reported so that 3rd party private companies have access to it – but it’s not provide in the school district website?

      http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0234002205/school.aspx?t=tbTestScores&g=a#tabs

      doesn’t this mean the school district and/or DOE are collecting this info and providing it such that 3rd party companies can access it?

      what is the duty of the school district in reporting info to local taxpayers and citizens – that has already been collected and reported to people outside of the district?

      do you not see a problem with the school district not reporting data to the local taxpayers and parents that it has already collected and has available to others?

      how can local taxpayers and parents hold the school district accountable for it’s policies if the data is collected and delivered to the state and feds is withheld from them?

      how many folks who send their kids to Dearington elementary learn from the District itself that Dearington Elementary/Innovation ranked worse than 98.1% of elementary schools in Virginia. It also ranked last among 11 ranked elementary schools in the Lynchburg City Public Schools District.

      this seems to be a systemic problem with Va school districts

      how can taxpayers, parents and voters hold the school system accountable if this information is not provided by the school system itself?

      How can change and improvement be made if most don’t even know of the data?

  9. My analysis of all Virginia public schools indicates that ethnicity determines almost all of the SAT differences from school to school. See http://www.fcta.org/Pubs/Reports/2014-06a-fac.html. See also http://www.fcta.org/Pubs/Reports/2014-06a-fac.html for a comparison among Fairfax County schools and http://www.fcta.org/Pubs/Reports/2014-04b-fac.html for a comparison among Washington Area Boards of Education schools.

    1. Hill City Jim Avatar
      Hill City Jim

      FC, we know that. Be it SATs, PSAT’s, SOL’s,etc, ethnicity tells all…the question which has been discussed the past week is why?

      1. what we know also – is that way back before SATs that there are disparities between individual elementary schools in the same district.

        why are we pretending that’s not relevant?

        if you screw the K-3 kids.. then is it any surprise they dump the SATS 9 years later?

        1. Hill City Jim Avatar
          Hill City Jim

          what we know also – is that way back before SATs that there are disparities between individual elementary schools in the same district.

          Of course…what we also know there are different genes at work here…not all kids are created equal and that you cannot quantify results of unequal scores with unequal funding.

          1. re: ” and that you cannot quantify results of unequal scores with unequal funding.”

            sure looks like it from the studies.. there is a clear correlation…

            but why hide the data? why not let the citizens see the funding per school compared to the academic performance and let them also have a view?

            you preordain the outcome you expect?

            I think we’ve gotten down to the issue and waiting to hear from Jim Bacon.

          2. re: ” there are different genes at work here”

            I’m agog.. if this is coming from an educator

          3. I’m uncomfortable resorting to genetic explanations for varying test scores on a number of grounds. Perhaps the simplest one is this: If one is to postulate that the difference in test scores between whites and blacks reflects the higher IQ of whites, then one also would have to accept the proposition, based on the disparity of test scores, that Asians are innately more intelligent than whites. I don’t accept either proposition. Here’s another reason. African-Americans are a mixed race, predominantly black but with large infusions of white genes. Do those white genes make African-Americans smarter than all-black Africans or West Indians? I have seen no evidence of it. I believe we can readily explain racial variations in test scores through the structural, cultural and institutional variables we have been discussing.

  10. I totally agree with Larry on this one — citizens deserve open data. The VDOE to its credit has put more SOL data at the hands of citizens than ever before. That’s a good step forward. But citizens also should have access to school-level financial data as well. Why shouldn’t we know how much money is being spent per school? Don’t tell me the school divisions don’t have that data. If they don’t, they should.

    If resources are being allocated unequally between schools, then we need to deal with that problem. If they’re not allocated unequally, then we need to move on to other issues. But we can’t move on if we don’t know what the score is. We just argue in endless, unprovable loops of logic.

  11. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    I agree. I have almost begged the local newspaper to report these scores. All they report is some cherry-picked ranking or scores. I have to write a letter to the editor to get any info printed and that is limited to 250 words, once a month. Their big excuse is the high percentage of E.D. children is the reason our schools show so poorly, and, we need mo’ money! I wrote one last week and a black friend told me he enjoyed it. I said I was sad that I had to report the poor performance of our black kids.
    It is frustrating!

  12. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    This reply for JB. I don’t think expenditures per school will tell you anything other than per school expenditures. Different class size due to geography, different teacher compensation, different mix of racial, E.D. students. IMHO.

    1. We need all those data points, and we need to be able to drill into it just like with can with the SOL data. At some point, we have to be able to say definitely, yes, unequal distribution of resources is a problem, and we need to correct it, or, no, it’s not a problem, we need to look to other solutions.

      1. http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/title-i/school-level-expenditures/school-level-expenditures.pdf

        ” After controlling for school grade level, the study found that from 42 percent to 46 percent of Title I schools (depending on school grade level) had per-pupil personnel expenditure levels that were below their district’s average for non–Title I schools at the same grade level, and from 19 percent to 24 percent were more than 10 percent below the non–Title I school average. Conversely, 54 percent to 58 percent of Title I schools had expenditures that were above the non–Title I school average, and 29 percent to 39 percent were more than 10 percent above the non–Title I school average. Most Title I districts had at least one Title I school with personnel expenditures below the district average for non–Title I schools at the same grade level (74 percent at the elementary level, 59 percent at the middle school level, and 54 percent at the high school level).
        Similar patterns were found when comparing higher-poverty and lower-poverty schools within districts. For example, at the elementary level, 42 percent of higher-poverty schools had per-pupil personnel expenditure levels that were below their district’s average for lower-poverty elementary schools, and 17 percent were more than 10 percent below the lower-poverty school average, while 31 percent were more than 10 percent above the lower-poverty school average”

        is this not real? do we just pretend it’s not real?

        1. Hill City Jim Avatar
          Hill City Jim

          I just speed reviewed this but it appears to indicate the largest expenditure is instructional staff salaries. Now we all know good teachers that make a positive influence on their students and not so good teachers that don’t. Please don’t tell me that the salary they earn is indicative of the test results of the students. There is no correlation between expenditures of classrooms and student performance.

          1. re: ” There is no correlation between expenditures of classrooms and student performance”

            that’s not what the studies show. You seem to think new teachers make the same money of experienced teachers with advanced degrees.

            do you have any data to support what you say?

  13. Along the same lines, why is there a disproportionate number Blacks among the NBA players and the NFL players?

    1. Because inner-city black culture holds up NBA players and NFL players as role models while downplaying more prosaic occupations requiring academic achievement as “white.” (Yeah, I think culture is a big factor.) As a consequence, athletically gifted poor blacks striving to make a success of their lives channel their energies into a handful of high-profile and highly remunerative sports while athletically gifted whites perceive themselves as enjoying a far wider array of options.

      1. HCJ is forthright …and demonstrates quite vividly the issues we have with education in Virginia.

        I do not dismiss the “culture” issue but I do ask if our views during massive resistance have changed much.

        some of us apparently still believe that blacks are inferior intellectually and more suited to physical tasks?

        Jim – I would submit to you that the old south still exists..

        1. Hill City Jim Avatar
          Hill City Jim

          Please tell me what I have demonstrated to you. Obviously you do not know the meaning of genes. And for someone that knows it all!

          1. what you have demonstrated is that you have pre-ordained ideas about kids with respect to genes that justify in your mind their disparate treatment.

            how do you know – ahead of time – who deserves more or less education resources? how do you know?

            and why does it appear that the disparate treatment falls more heavily on minorities than non-minorities?

            I give you credit for finally coming out on this – but it ain’t pretty.

            we have evidence of funding disparities between schools. why?

          2. Hill City Jim Avatar
            Hill City Jim

            “what you have demonstrated is that you have pre-ordained ideas about kids with respect to genes that justify in your mind their disparate treatment”
            Really! You need a refresher in English Reading. Never suggested “disparate treatment” Just said different classrooms have different students with different genes and that you cannot quantify test results with classroom expenditures with all the other variable.
            Now I am really tired of your implications that I am a racist.

          3. no. I’m seeing disparate treatment.

            and I’m seeing impacts from it.

            you’re the one that brought up the genes.

            I’m willing to look at ALL the races in terms of how disparate treatment affects their scores – but at the same time you will also see schools that are lopsided in their racial populations..

            I ask you why there are disparate academic performance across the different schools – and the evidence provided about disparate funding.

            do you think there is a correlation between disparate funding and disparate performance ?

            you’ve sort of danced around these issues until now – and again I give you credit for finally coming out – but you apparently do not see your own bias here.

            I do not totally discount culture. It’s a reality but I have also have concerns about disparate academic performance – within the same race – by school.

            How do you explain the fact that between different schools black academic performance does vary?

          4. Hill City Jim Avatar
            Hill City Jim

            What do you mean “coming out”?

            Sounds like race baiting to me.

            You seem to think, incorrectly, that you can measure performance between classes within a division. Lets say that you have 2 classes of 20 kids each, you choose the racial makeup, all white or all black.
            Class A has a good teacher, multiple endorsements, lots of experience. Class B has a teacher with just a BA, 2 years experience. Being as teacher in class A has worked her way up the pay scale, this classroom’s expenditures will be higher. But yet when the test results come in all kids scored the same. Yes, they all had the same cognitive ability too – imagine that.
            What did you prove? Class a had higher expenditures. But maybe they had different cognitive ability in b classroom and scored better. Noticed I have substituted cognitive ability for genes, the term you find offensive. What have you proved now?

            I’d like to continue allowing you your race baiting but I am down in the basement on Mom’s computer and she saw where there was a job opening and I need to get the wagon ready to go into town.

          5. re: ” Sounds like race baiting to me.”

            not intended. your views tonight make clear what was not clear before in your words…

            “You seem to think, incorrectly, that you can measure performance between classes within a division. Lets say that you have 2 classes of 20 kids each, you choose the racial makeup, all white or all black.”

            I said schools

            “Class A has a good teacher, multiple endorsements, lots of experience. Class B has a teacher with just a BA, 2 years experience. Being as teacher in class A has worked her way up the pay scale, this classroom expenditures will be higher. But yet when the test results come in all kids scored the same. Yes, they all had the same cognitive ability too – imagine that.’

            I said schools… not classes…

            “What did you prove? Class a had higher expenditures. But maybe they had different cognitive ability in b classroom and scored better. Noticed I have substituted cognitive ability for genes, the term you find offensive. What have you proved now?”

            how would you KNOW – BEFORE you assigned a brand new teacher or a highly skilled one? If you had a choice between the two – how would you choose?

            “I’d like to continue allowing you your race baiting but I am down in the basement on Mom’s computer and she saw where there was a job opening and I need to get the wagon ready to go into town.”

            you’re evading here.. guy… it’s schools within the same district.. that see the disparate funding and outcomes.

            and – you schools won’t even provide that data – much less the salary/experience of individual teachers and the academic performance of the class.

            in short – you don’t provide the data … and if you did – the world would see the fact that some schools are funded different from others – in the same district – and that there is a correlation on outcomes…

            if you were willing to provide the data – you might have a leg to stand on – but instead you say that “genes” are involved and provide nothing what-so-ever to back it up other than purely racist sounding hypotheticals.

            why don’t you join Jim in advocating disclosure of the data – and be willing to let the data tell us instead of you “explaining” the “gene” effect?

      2. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
        LifeOnTheFallLine

        So, this part of your thesis is absolutely true:

        “athletically gifted poor blacks striving to make a success of their lives channel their energies into a handful of high-profile and highly remunerative sports while athletically gifted whites perceive themselves as enjoying a far wider array of options.”

        But not because THIS is true:

        “Because inner-city black culture holds up NBA players and NFL players as role models while downplaying more prosaic occupations requiring academic achievement as ‘white.’”

        That’s like saying that the Irish must have had a much stronger cultural sense of law and order than everyone else since so many of them came over here and became cops.

        Groups gravitate towards the types of jobs that are available to them. For years and years and years the type of work available to black people in this country was strictly physical, even after the dissolution of slavery. What were the first positions where black people could expect to get the same type of pay as their white counterparts? Do you think a black dentist was making the same pay as a white dentist when Jack Johnson was getting paid purses comparable to his white opponents? If James Brown had decided to become, say, a lawyer instead, would he have made money comparable to another white lawyer the way he made money comparable to white musicians as a performer? Would he have even had equal access to venues in which to ply his trade?

        You talk about black inner-city culture A) as if you’ve ever been close to there and B) as if it was something the people made themselves and not as a result of de facto and de jure policies forced on them by the white hegemony.

        And if it persists today that’s because those conditions have scarcely changed. Growing up, I could imagine becoming president (and often did) because it wasn’t hard to imagine people that looked like me as president. What does a young black kid have to imagine? 1 out of 44? And then when that one makes it he’s constantly harangued by a large percentage of the population about his birth certificate, college transcripts, etc. Even when a black man made it he didn’t really make it.

        What is the amount of black people as lawyers, scientists, doctors, etc. that make it on TV either in fiction or non-fiction? Now, how many black football players show up on the field any given Sunday? If you’re six and black and looking at mainstream culture, how many positions do you realistically think are available to you?

  14. Sorry all this talk of “culture” seems like code words for African Americans to me. Public schools are the cornerstone of our democracy, we can’t write off a significant part of our children because their “culture” is wrong. Go after the real problems: poverty and a lack of support for all public schools and teachers.

    1. Nobody’s writing off African-American students… just trying to get at the root of the problem. I established in my first post that poverty accounts for nearly 3/5 of the variation between students. Nobody’s been debating that issue, so I haven’t been writing about it. The problem is, schools can’t cure poverty. That’s not their job. Moreover, the U.S. has been trying to deal with poverty for 50 years and hasn’t been doing a very good job with it. So, let’s focus on the factors affecting the other 2/5 of variable performance.

      1. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
        LifeOnTheFallLine

        And that’s why as intellectually enjoyable as this conversation has been, it’s ultimately pointless. If you were presented with the option by a physician to address heart disease and they said “You could only do one or the other but not both and changing your diet will give 3/5 healing and exercise will give you 2/5 healing” would you say, “Well, my body’s job isn’t to address food so I’ll just go with exercise instead?” No, of course not, you’d restructure things so that your body could address food (that is if you didn’t go the obvious route and say “You’re a terrible doctor and I’m going to do both and sue you for malpractice.”).

        There are ways to ameliorate the effects of poverty at schools that benefit all students and families, I’ve laid some of them out here in the past. If you don’t want to address 3/5 of a problem then you don’t really want to address a problem.

        1. well.. you can’t fix genes….

      2. You’re coming off as insensitive (and backward) when you criticize “black culture”. Do you attribute superior academic performance in schools to white culture? Sort of a stacked deck isn’t it?

  15. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    JB, Why do you assume “different genes” assumes racial overtones? When I went to school in the dark ages of segregated schools, students were segregated by the “fast learners” and the “slow learners”…and we were all white kids. Yes, we had different genes!

    1. As long as you’re talking about genetic variability for intelligence within racial groups, I’m OK with that discussion. You’re walking into a minefield if you extrapolate from individual variability to differences in intelligence between groups. Read Thomas Sowell, a good conservative scholar, on the subject.

      1. Jim – do you say that because of political correctness or something else?

    2. It was called ‘tracking” and the concern was and remains, how someone who had the ability, could grow – achieve their potential, if they were kept in the slow group and there was no real way to escape .. you got locked in to a slow group.

      and that’s what we do also, when we under-resource a whole school because it has a high percentage of economically disadvantaged or minorities.

      the difference is that tracking was not disavowed. It was admitted to and defended until it became apparent it could harm kids academic potential.

      but now days – we hide the fact that multiple schools in the same district have disparate academic performance – for the same race – the same “genes”.

      Try to find a simple comparison of academic performance and teacher staffing at elementary schools within the same school district.

      what you get on the school website is PR .. highlighting their successes and almost zero about individual school performance, basic administrative issues, etc but not a whiff of academic performance.

      try it. Go to the Dearington Elementary website:

      http://www.lcsedu.net/schools/des/

      and show me where their academic scores are … or for that matter any of the rich data that is on the 3rd party School Digger site…

      go to ANY school in Lynchburg or for that matter in Henrico – academic performance is not provided.

      this is what you get:

      search for SOL scores:

      Not found
      Sorry, but no results were found for that keyword. Wanna try an alternative keyword search?

      and Shady Grove is – the 3rd best elementary school in Va – and it does not show it’s excellent SOL scores.

      and you know why? Because if they did it for one school – the bragging rights school – people would then want the other schools to also show their scores – and that would cause immediate problems when parents would then see the disparity in the scores between the schools.

      for folks reading this – try it for you local school and report back what you find and if your local school reports their academic performance data.

  16. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
    LifeOnTheFallLine

    “Do Hispanics not face as much discrimination and institutional racism as blacks?”

    No, no they don’t. For exhibit A you’ll find a lot fewer unarmed Hispanics killed by the police on an annual basis. For exhibit B it’s illustrative to remember than until 1980 the census made no distinction between whites and white Hispanics and black and black Hispanics. For exhibit C the mere existence of white Hispanics…do you think Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, or Rita Hayworth faced the same level of harassment as their black counterparts? When did TV get the black equivalent of Desi Arnaz? For exhibit D, while the DREAM Act still gets paid at least lip service, where is the political will for an updated Voting Rights Act?

    And any discussion of why Asians overpeform and blacks underperform compared to whites is incomplete without bringing in stereotype threat.

    Now, here is where I will get into cultural distinctions with you, but not Asian vs White vs Hispanic vs Black culture but Eastern culture vs. Western culture. How do the concepts of community, commitment, connectedness and caring as they pertain to education differ in Asian countries compared to America? How do they differ in parts of Europe compared to America? Do those societies believe more in a communal philosophy compared to America’s insipid insistence on “rugged individualism?” Does this lead to a community commitment to the education system and its parts that doesn’t exist in American culture? Do the Asian immigrants that have come here have a different view of caring for the community and a healthier respect for the occupation of teacher than Americans do? Would you see similar results in immigrants who come here from Finland?

    The fact is, America has a love-hate relationship with its teachers and its school system. It always wants to do the most with the least…least pay, least resources, least amount of respect for the job of teacher…and that is rarely effective on a macro scale. How would our entire system changed if we gave teachers the same level of respect and prestige as we give other front-line public servants like police and firefighters? If we stopped talking about teachers unions as evil empires more concerned with protecting horrible teachers than with the job of teaching? If we paid teachers wages similar to what we pay other professional positions, who else would we attract? I would love to be a teacher, but I cannot afford it…for how many other people is this true?

  17. These comments are funny. Let’s get real.

    1. Of course culture affects one’s attitude toward school. Anybody who doubts that either hasn’t spent any time living among Northern Virginia’s Asian Americans or hasn’t been paying attention. The Asians are getting ahead because, on average, they prioritize schoolwork and put in a ton of effort at school. They have a culture of hard work and dedication to academic excellence and it’s working for them. Of course, this pretty much blows up the liberal belief that evil white men are keeping down America’s minorities. Have the evil white men failed to notice the Asians who are getting ahead of the evil white men’s own children? Maybe hard work actually does pay off – even for non white people.

    2. If I were black I’d have a culture of mistrust in white institutions myself. The African Americans aren’t recent arrivals to the US who just got here full of hope and looking for a better life. They were brought here in chains and constantly harassed for generations after the abortion of slavery was finally ended. A mixed race couple couldn’t get married in Virginia until 1967. Alexandria didn’t effectively integrate their public high schools until 1971. Richmond’s last school desegregation case wasn’t decided until 1985. In 1995 Richmonders were arguing about putting a statue of Arthur Ashe on Monument Avenue and a giant Confederate flag still flies along I-95 commemorating Richmond’s status as capital of the Confederacy. There’s been progress – Doug Wilder, Virginia now has the highest percentage of mixed race married couples in the US, etc. But that progress was very, very recent. Would a culture of mistrust really surprise you?

    3. Culture may be a factor but I’d wager it’s a relatively minor factor. When comparing poor blacks and poor whites why do you assume the two populations are equally poor? Do the Asian Americans have parents who graduated from high school? College? Those Asians who are poor may just not have been in America long enough to succeed. Why do the African American children in West Point do so well?

    4. The “resources” argument doesn’t cut it. Washington, DC has been a veritable lab for seeing the effects of pouring money into the public schools. Here’s a good graph – http://wapo.st/1lIbXC8. Do you think DC and Baltimore are getting a lot of bang for their bucks?

    5. School expenditures and poverty levels need to be normalized to the cost of living in different areas. The Weldon Cooper Institute recalculated levels of poverty in Virginia adjusting for cost of living, modern consumption patterns and government in-kind subsidies. The poverty rate inside the beltway in NoVa went up 66.2% to 12.3% from the official poverty rate. The poverty rate in Southwest Virginia went down 23.8% to 16%. Using the Virginia Poverty Measure West Point is in an area with much less poverty than inner NoVa and at the same rate as Fairfax County outside of inner NoVa.

    Jim might want to go “culture hunting” with these adjusted numbers.

    1. DonR – how about taking a look at Annandale Terrace elementary in Fairfax

      http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0126000424/school.aspx

      ” In 2013, Annandale Terrace Elementary ranked worse than 88.8% of elementary schools in Virginia. It also ranked 125th among 136 ranked elementary schools in the Fairfax County Public Schools District.”

      and then compare it to Greenbriar West Elementary which In 2013, Greenbriar West Elementary ranked better than 99.8% of elementary schools in Virginia. It also ranked first among 136 ranked elementary schools in the Fairfax County Public Schools District!

      can you explain how two schools in the same school district have such disparate performance and things like percent of economically disadvantaged?

      why do you think different schools in the same district have very different percentages of demographics including race than the overall number for the district and county? Do you think it’s “culture” why that happens?

      how come when I go to the Annadale Terrace Elementary site there is nothing about it’s demographics and SOL scores, etc that you can find on the School Digger site?

      Do you think that Annadale Terrace has a “culture” problem with Hispanics?

      1. Annandale Terrace is by no means by itself as a grossly under-performing school in the richest county in Va – with some of the best schools in Va and the nation :

        Bucknell Elementary

        In 2013, Bucknell Elementary ranked worse than 97% of elementary schools in Virginia. It also ranked 135th among 136 ranked elementary schools in the Fairfax County Public Schools District.

        http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0126000435/school.aspx

        what explains the huge disparities in academic performance in Fairfax?

        is it really “culture” ? How do some schools in Fairfax have far higher numbers of minorities than the county as a whole? Does that mean that different races live in different neighborhoods – and go to different neighborhood schools?

        How do some of these neighborhood schools end up in some of the worst schools in the county? Is that an indication of some races gravitating towards certain neighborhoods because of “culture” or perhaps income?

        if you look ACROSS the 136 elementary schools in Fairfax – you will ALSO see disparities between schools – for the SAME RACE – so how does “culture” work when different schools have different pass scores for the same race?

        does that imply that there are “sub-cultures” that group up by neighborhood?

      2. “can you explain how two schools in the same school district have such disparate performance and things like percent of economically disadvantaged?”

        Poor neighborhoods in the same general vicinity as wealthy neighborhoods. Happens all over Northern Virginia. You can easily ride a bike from the trailer parks along Rt 1 to the wealthy single family home enclave of Villamay. Exactly where the elementary school boundaries fall in that economic patchwork is a good question. I believe there is some economic segregation which becomes racial segregation because of the racial differences in economic achievement.

        “so how does “culture” work when different schools have different pass scores for the same race?”

        Other than for Asian Americans, culture is a secondary influencer and economic position is a primary influencer. In some segments of the African – American community there is a sense that working hard in school won’t matter much because there is a remaining prejudice that will hinder black people in the marketplace. However, sports are head to head competitions with numeric, mathematical outcomes which can’t be “tilted” by a generally prejudiced society.

        First generation immigrants are hard to analyze. There is a big jump in educational success once English proficiency is achieved. Looking at any one particular school with regard to first generation immigrants would require a look at English proficiency. Many new arrivals live in one place when they first arrive and get started in America. As the parents gain English language skills they get better jobs and move to new neighborhoods. The children, who initially struggle based on language proficiency, gain proficiency and do better. My guess is that Annandale Terrace has more newly arrived Hispanic students but that’s just a guess.

  18. Here are pass rates for blacks for 3rd grade reading in some of the Fairfax Elementary schools:

    Annadale Terrace 36%
    Bren Mar Park 62%
    Bull Run 71%
    Brush Hill 47%
    Rolling Valley 50%
    Saratoga 46%

    is this explained by “culture”?

    or how would you explain it?

    1. As I said, for whites, blacks and Hispanics I believe that economic situation is a bigger influencer than culture. So, you’d have to adjust for that first. Then, I believe you’d still see differences among relatively poorer African Americans who doubt that they’ll get a “fair shake” in American society even if they do get a good education. That’s the secondary cultural issue. The big question is whether you’d see the same differences among whites in poor, rural areas where economic opportunity has been lacking for a long time. If so, I’d have to conclude that it’s almost all poverty and not cultural.

      The really good question is why the City of Richmond is such an achievement outlier.

      1. IF I gave you the same list of black scores and added economically disadvantaged percent – you’d expect that to be the determining cause?

        1. I would expect to see a strong correlation between economic situation and educational attainment. At the lower end of the economic curve I’d expect to see a difference that could not be explained by economic situation alone. That’s what I would call the cultural gap.

          However, let me caution everybody about the term “cultural gap”. Having worked (part time, for a charity) for 12 years with inner-city African American children from SE Washington, DC I saw some of the “cultural gap” first hand. Much of the discouragement is caused by white society’s negative first impression of an interaction with an inner – city African American child. A young person from the inner – city speaking “street English” is often immediately considered to have below average intelligence by those from outside the inner city based on the “street English”. I know for a fact that these first impressions are often very wrong. Some of the smartest kids in the program used “street English”. Now, when people encounter children they consider to be un-intelligent they usually are dismissive or condescending. Both serve to reinforce to the young person that they are not going to get a fair break in “white society”.

          “Cultural gap” is just that – a gap. It is not a pejorative against any particular culture. In fact, it can often be more a problem of the majority culture than the minority culture.

          1. Don – have you read this:

            Comparability of State and Local Expenditures Among Schools Within Districts: A Report From the Study of School-Level Expenditures

            http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/title-i/school-level-expenditures/school-level-expenditures.pdf

            read the conclusions and let me know if you think this study speaks the truth.

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