Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

The Other SOL Scandal

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by

James A. Bacon
in , ,

Source: VDOE SOL Assessment Build-a-Table
Source: VDOE SOL Assessment Build-a-Table

by James A. Bacon

The new, tougher Standards of Learning (SOL) test scores have Virginia’s political establishment in an uproar. Too many children are failing to achieve basic proficiency. Dozens of schools seem institutionally incapable of improvement. Entire school divisions resemble learning-free zones.

The overwhelming focus of public attention has been on the disappointing pass rates for basic proficiency. In just the latest example, Governor Terry McAuliffe vowed yesterday that all schools in Richmond, Petersburg and Norfolk will reach full accreditation before he leaves office, the Times-Dispatch reports today.

While the failure of thousands of Virginia kids to meet basic proficiency standards is alarming, the failure of even more kids to achieve “advanced” (college-track in upper grades), learning standards is every bit as panic-inducing. But no one seems to be paying attention.

If students fail to achieve proficiency in reading, writing, history, math and science, they will not qualify for the vast majority of jobs opening up in the knowledge economy. The numbers suggest that as many as one-fifth of Virginia kids will be consigned to the economic margins.  Likewise, the inability to achieve advanced, college-path standards, suggests that only one out of five Virginia public school students will be prepared for college. Not shown in the table above: Advanced scores for math and science are even lower on average. Virginia students are really unprepared for the so-called STEM subjects required for mastery of technology.

Bacon’s bottom line: We’re not doing ourselves any favors by focusing overwhelmingly on bringing the bottom performers up. We need to improve performance across the board.

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42 responses to “The Other SOL Scandal”

  1. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    let”s just say that the more taxpayers we create and the less entitlement takers – it’s a huge plus for the high performers.

    the problem is not the bottom performers per se – it’s the disparity between neighborhood schools with regard to bottom performers which means kids with similar demographics are varying wildly in their academic performance – according to what school they go to by as much as 40-50 points for the same demographics.

    that’s not a lack of focus on higher performers – that’s a scandal in providing equitable resources to kids with similar needs.

    the fundamental purpose of taxpayers money in education is to create an employable workforce that pays taxes… not high performers in place of that.

    we own this problem –

    it’s not like we can’t fix it –

    there are schools in Virginia that do it – and do it well:

    “Governor McAuliffe & Board of Education Announce 2014 Virginia Index of Performance Awards Awards Recognize High-Achieving Schools & Divisions”

    ” RICHMOND – Governor Terry McAuliffe and the Board of Education announced today that 212 schools and four school divisions earned 2014 Virginia Index of Performance (VIP) awards for advanced learning and achievement. The VIP incentive program recognizes schools and divisions that exceed minimum state and federal accountability standards and achieve excellence goals established by the governor and the board.”

    http://doe.virginia.gov/news/news_releases/2014/04_apr29_gov.shtml

  2. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    Let me repeat three things – also – central to my view:

    1. – I acknowledge that “culture” is real and involved I’m not convinced it is a high percentage or varies wildly by neighborhood school.

    2. – I acknowledge that we are not going to graduate every kid with an acceptable education – it’s just not attainable

    3. – I acknowledge that some percent of kids are going to grow up unable to be employed and/or becoming entitlement and/or incarceration burdens.

    My problem is – how can we have kids – who are classifiable as economically disadvantaged and with “culture” issues – going to different schools in the same district – and have such high rates of academic disparities and outcomes – for the very same demographics?

    how do we explain the same kids with the same IQs, the same poverty issues and the same uneducated single parents – having such diverse SOL scores depending on what school they attend?

    how does this happen?

    We can and should look at disparities at the other end of the scale – for high performers – also – and one could likely explain some of it that some schools have more/better programs for advanced students than others.

    In fact – Pro-Publica will show you how many AP courses are offered at each school and what percentage of enrollment take the AP courses and so that would be an acceptable explanation ..

    but isn’t that the same thing likely to be the very reason why there are disparities on bottom performers?

    the difference is – the top performers are adding on to their already ample education and they have other options like dual enrollment or IB or Governors School, distance learning, etc.. lots of options..

    the bottom performers are not getting what they need to make the basic bottom rung of the ladder – they’re failing to achieve minimum standards -but not at some constant rate – it varies by school – not a little – a LOT!

    It varies wildly by 10, 20, 30 points and more.. depending on the school – in schools in the very same School District.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      At least in Fairfax County, it is very clear substantially higher resources are being given to children in schools with higher poverty rates. Look at average class sizes. Schools with higher incomes have significantly larger class sizes in elementary school. This is more than federal and state funding. It’s a lot of local tax dollars supplementing state and federal funding.
      http://www.fcps.edu/it/studentreporting/documents/ElmClassSizeAvg2013.pdf

      Reasonable people can debate how much extra funding is appropriate. But one cannot argue honestly that Fairfax County taxpayers are not bending over backwards to provide added resources to elementary schools in lower income areas of the county. There is more to a lack of achievement than just tax dollars.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        TMT – these look like class sizes per school but where is the data about the income of the school and percent economically disadvantaged?

        the thing that as to be understood about class sizes is that usually all personnel are included in those states and the most important stat is how many have Title 1 resources – over an above the normal staffing.

        that’s the key. it’s not just money or class size.. it’s the quality of the staffing with regard to the percent of ED …

        I keep going back here.

        Across Virginia within the same school districts – schools with similar demographics – have wildly varying academic performance…

        not one or two or a few points – but 10, 20 , 30 points between two schools that are very similar in their demographics.

        what could cause that?

        there are some schools in Va in fact – where blacks score HIGHER than whites.. … and together – they hit 85% and higher on the SOLs while other schools barely make the minimum to meet AYP.

        it’s not about money – it’s about how existing monies are allocated.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          Larry, FCPS provides a link to information about individual schools, which includes demographic data. You can search in a variety of ways, such as by whether the school is a Title 1 school. http://commweb.fcps.edu/directory/

          I don’t believe the Division publishes spending per school. Most likely because it would set off battles among parents for what they might see as unfair allocation of resources. Getting information on individual schools, such as the number of students in each class, is as easy as locating Peter’s Ronald Reagan for President buttons. Parents generally need to turn to the PTA and room parents to get actual data.

          I would agree that the quality of the teaching staff is important. But I know of no way except for anecdotal information to address that one.

          By and large, any argument that FCPS does not provide at least adequate (and in the views of many, more than adequate) resources to low-income students is simply wrong. Money alone cannot explain why some kids fail to learn.

          1. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            re: ” By and large, any argument that FCPS does not provide at least adequate (and in the views of many, more than adequate) resources to low-income students is simply wrong. Money alone cannot explain why some kids fail to learn.”

            how would you know about resources if the schools do no t disclose it?

            the problem is that the study – this study

            ” More Than 40% of Low-Income Schools Don’t Get a Fair Share of State and Local Funds, Department of Education Research Finds”

            which I have posted multiples times here without comment from folks like you -demonstrates in the schools they did study there could be problems with getting the higher quality resources to the at risk kids”

            I do not say that Fairfax is not funding these kids – I don”t know – and neither do you or anyone else but we do know that there are disparities in academic performance between schools with the same demographics and no one has bothered to respond to that either.

            if it as as you say: “… more than adequate) resources to low-income students is simply wrong. Money alone cannot explain why some kids fail to learn.” then how do you explain the fact that at different schools with similar low-income kids – the academic performance varies significantly?

            I don’t know the answer but I suspect that some schools have more inexperienced teachers fresh out of college and these kids generally need Title-1 – grade teachers – that’s teachers with Master Degrees in teaching kids who don”t learn as easily as other kids”.

            when you say enough money is spent – and you do not know it or you do not know if enough experienced teachers are on staff – then how can you say there is no way to solve the problem?

            We KNOW for the schools that DO use Pre-K and Head Start and Title 1 appropriately – that the kids DO perform better – and in some schools they actually before as well as other kids or even better.

            we do know this. There are schools right now where this is happening – for the very same low-income kids that are failing at other schools.

            why? do we want to know why? do we want to do things that may help more of the kids to perform better like the kids that with Title 1 resources do learn better?

            I’m not ready to walk away from the problem as long as there are disparities in performance and studies that show disparities in funding and staffing.

            I walk away when we see a static percentage of low income kids – failing – consistently – across different schools.

            That’s when I admit the problem is systemic and cultural and we don’t know how to fix it.

            until then I’d like folks to explain how the very same low income demographic performs so very differently according to the school…

            this is more than a moral issue – it is an economic issue – an entitlement issue.. as more and more of your and my tax dollars will be sucked up in providing help to those who could have learned and become taxpayers but instead – they failed and your kids will be picking up the tab.

          2. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            here’s what I say (as if I have not said enough already!):

            there are a certain percentage of kids that we do not know how to teach and/or will FAIL get through school to become employed, taxpaying citizens.

            I’d like to find out the number. I’d like to understand why there are such disparities between schools for the very same demographic.

            I have a hard time understanding what that number varies by a huge amount depending on the school.

            if someone has come up with a reason as to why there is such a variance, I have not yet seen it – and would benefit from being informed as to why we have such a variance.

            is there a nominal number – a basic percentage that can be said to be systemic and endemic ?

            Are 50% of these kids going to fail even with Title 1 staffing and resources?
            or is the number 20% or 90%?

            are Head Start, pre-k and Title 1 – etc failures in concept and we are wasting money on a fruitless goal?

            is the concept of No child left behind and Va SOLs – a failed approach that we need to abandon and stop spending good money after bad?

            and – we are better off using that money to convince people to stay married, get a job, and read to their kids or deny them entitlements or put them in prison instead?

            thanks to all who wade in….

      2. Hill City Jim Avatar
        Hill City Jim

        I think a good question to ask your Fairfax administrators is how can you show this report showing a 21.9 pupil/teacher ratio when VDOE shows, grades K-7, a ratio of 12.38? Yeah that includes a librarian, councilor or two but that is a heck of a discrepancy.
        But if you think you hire extra, look at Lynchburg’s 9.85 pupil/teacher ratio. I laugh at the Governor who is going to insure all schools will be accredited in 3 years. Are you going to lower the standards, I ask?
        The achievement gap has been studied since Brown vs. the Board of Education 50 years ago with more recommendations and experiments tried than you can possibly imagine. My favorite is the 10 year “attempt” at improving education by throwing more money at the problem done in Kansas City. Google it…it is a good read!

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          the thing is – that there not only do 2/3 of Va schools get accreditation – there are dozens on the VIP list of schools that have far exceeded the minimums for accreditation.

          so it’s not like it cannot be done…

          schooldigger also shows discrepancies to the data TMT provided:

          http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/compare/0126002436/schoolcompare.aspx

          and take a look at this school :

          https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/report.do?division=89&schoolName=662

          specifically at the black vs white SOL pass rate…

          Black 92%
          White 86%
          ED 75%
          all students – 83%

          this school is on the Gov VIP list – there are many others who have achieved on this level..

        2. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          the thing is – that there not only do 2/3 of Va schools get accreditation – there are dozens on the VIP list of schools that have far exceeded the minimums for accreditation.

          so it’s not like it cannot be done…

          schooldigger also shows discrepancies to the data TMT provided:

          http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/compare/0126002436/schoolcompare.aspx

          and take a look at this school :

          specifically at the black vs white SOL pass rate…

          Black 92%
          White 86%
          ED 75%
          all students – 83%

          this school is on the Gov VIP list – there are many others who have achieved on this level.

      3. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        TMT – it’s not class size guy. You can have a flock of teachers – but if most of them are fresh out of college and have no experience or skills in teaching at-risk kids -they are going to fail.

        Do you know which of these schools are Title 1?

        In theory – Title 1 schools would show smaller class sizes because it would have the typical complement of staffing PLUS extra Title 1 teachers. Title 1 teachers are Master Degreed with specialties in teaching kids with reading (or math) deficits.

        In those schools – that are doing it right. You send the kids with deficits out of the regular class to get extra Title 1 help and then those kids return to their regular class to continue studying the other things.

        and you would need as many additional TItle 1 teachers as you have higher percentages of at-risk kids.

        For instance a school with 80% free and reduced lunch would have more title 1 teachers than one with 40% free and reduced – but both schools would have regular staffing compared to other schools but then additional title 1 teachers.

        Title 1 “works” when it is done according to protocol.

        there are Title 1 schools in Va with high numbers of free and reduced that not only make accreditation – they actually score HIGHER than other schools that are not Title 1.

        unfortunately there are also quite a few Title 1 schools that never attain that level of success.

        1. Hill City Jim Avatar
          Hill City Jim

          ”
          – it’s not class size guy. You can have a flock of teachers – but if most of them are fresh out of college and have no experience or skills in teaching at-risk kids -they are going to fail.

          SHOW ME THE DATA!

          For the past 2 weeks all you have argued, incorrectly I might add, that it is DOLLARS spent per classroom or per school. Schools that have lower pupil/teacher ratios with additional aides HAVE HIGHER CLASSROOM AND BUILDING COSTS! And you have tried to correlate costs of operations to student achievement! Do you have any idea of the program funding available to the under performing students?

          Show me the data!

          1. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            re: ” For the past 2 weeks all you have argued, incorrectly I might add, that it is DOLLARS spent per classroom or per school.”

            I said the studies show that the schools are spending LESS on Title 1 schools regular staffing 40% of the time.

            “Schools that have lower pupil/teacher ratios with additional aides HAVE HIGHER CLASSROOM AND BUILDING COSTS! ”

            what do classroom/physical plant costs have to do with any of this??

            “And you have tried to correlate costs of operations to student achievement! Do you have any idea of the program funding available to the under performing students?

            Show me the data!”

            Comparability of State and Local Expenditures Among Schools Within Districts: A Report From the Study of School-Level Expenditures

            http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/title-i/school-level-expenditures/school-level-expenditures.pdf

            “More Than 40% of Low-Income Schools Don’t Get a Fair Share of State and Local Funds, Department of Education Research Finds”

            ” Overall, the study found that per-pupil personnel expenditures from state and local funds often varied considerably across schools within districts, and nearly half of all schools (47 percent) had per-pupil personnel expenditures that were more than 10 percent above or below their district’s average. However, some expenditure differences were related to school grade level: high schools and middle schools tended to have higher per-pupil expenditures than elementary schools.
            After controlling for school grade level, the study found that from 42 percent to 46 percent of Title I schools (depending on school grade level) had per-pupil personnel expenditure levels that were below their district’s average for non–Title I schools at the same grade level, and from 19 percent to 24 percent were more than 10 percent below the non–Title I school average. “

      4. Hill City Jim Avatar
        Hill City Jim

        Graduation rates just posted
        http://www.doe.virginia.gov/news/news_releases/2014/09_sept24.shtml

  3. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    JB,
    Why does your chart show a lower percentage total of All Proficient than the average of the individual race categories?

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      I screwed up the “proficient” row. I’ve replaced the table with the correct data. Thanks for the sharp eye!

  4. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    there’s another aspect to this that is relevant and that is what exactly do these terms basic, proficient and advanced come from – and what constitutes “passing” for an SOL test?

    there’s at interesting chart….

    Virginia Standards of Learning (SOL) Tests
    Cut Scores as Adopted by the
    Virginia Board of Education

    that shows – among other things:

    Grade 3 Reading (2010 Standards)
    13 out of 40 items = basic/pass/fail
    25 out of 40 items = proficient
    35 out of 40 items = advanced

    think about what it means to get 1/3 of the questions correct -and be said to have “passed. 30+% of blacks state wide pass with 1/3 to 1/2 of the questions correct.

    the percent that are “proficient” – do so getting a little more than half the questions correct.

    now think about how that compares to the Common Core or International standards.

    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/scoring/cut_scores.pdf

  5. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    VA state government incompetent? Yes. A Republican governor threw away $300M on a road that was never started and a Democratic governor can’t explain who got the money, why they got the money or wether the money will get paid back.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      The “Virginia Way” is bipartisan in all respects. And never forget that rights in dirt are better protected than other property rights.

  6. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    There’s an interesting June 2014 JLARC Report entitled:

    “Low Performing Schools in Urban High Poverty Communities”
    http://jlarc.virginia.gov/reports/Rpt454.pdf

    Reading through it, I recommend it for those who say they are concerned about racial “gaps” – at any rate it has a list of the most poverty stricken communities in Va and Sussex County weighs in as the highest at 81%.

    so I decided to run the numbers for Sussex through the SOL table builder for English Reading differentiated by white and black and ED or not.

    Here are the results:

    School Year Division School RaceEthnicity
    Economically Disadvantaged Subject Area Pass Rate

    Sussex County Elementary School Black N English:Reading 33.33%
    Sussex County Elementary School White N English:Reading
    Sussex County Elementary School Black Y English:Reading 49.37%
    Sussex County Elementary School White Y English:Reading 47.62%

    Sussex County Middle School Black N English:Reading 92.86%
    Sussex County Middle School White N English:Reading
    Sussex County Middle School Black Y English:Reading 60.00%
    Sussex County Middle School White Y English:Reading 68.00%

    Sussex County High Black N English:Reading
    Sussex County High White N English:Reading
    Sussex County High Black Y English:Reading 88.24%
    Sussex County High White Y English:Reading 72.22%

    there are 484 students in the Sussex Central elementary school – but not sure the percent of each race as the state does not break it out. If there is no percent – it generally means 10 or less kids in that sub group.

    SchoolDigger does not recognize the Sussex County Central Elementary but does Ellen W. Chambliss Elementary (which the state does not recognize) but Chambliss has just 200 kids split into 35 white and 155 black.

  7. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    With a movement to the knowledge-based economy, the United States has become a de facto class society, just as the UK is a de jure class society. Without developing skills and possessing knowledge, upward mobility will be very difficult. The success stories of Jews and Catholics (Irish, Italian, German, Poles, etc.) are not likely to be replicated by the new “bottom rungers.” Earlier groups could advance without world class educations. My term is not intended to be disparaging, but descriptive. The bottom rung also includes many existing residents of the U.S. from all races and ethnic backgrounds. At the same time, many other ethnic groups (Chinese, Korean, Indian, etc.) are entering and moving up the economy. And keep in mind, technology improvements often means more productivity and fewer people to produce a given result.

    Simply providing additional resources to schools attended by the new bottom rung will not make a difference in many cases. There needs to be a commitment by the students’ families to take advantage of the resources. Some will make this commitment, which, in turn, will enable some children to move up. But many will not receive family support and will remain at the bottom.

    Larry’s correct in that this will mean a need for social services, welfare, prison capacity. But I don’t see any reasonable means of getting around the lack of family support for most people at or near the bottom rung. NCLB is premised on false assumptions. And everyone is too politically correct to discuss this. If I’m largely correct, the real question is how do we live with this result?

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      TMT – I would think continue to work the issue – to get as many as you can to graduate – able to get a job – is one less you have to pay entitlements and/or incarceration for.

      No, it is not easy and no.. it’s not really fair that the rest of society has a choice of either more education resources or more entitlements but it is the gig.

      and this study: ” More Than 40% of Low-Income Schools Don’t Get a Fair Share of State and Local Funds, Department of Education Research Finds”

      this study tell us that we are not doing what we do know does work….

      and this also tells us the same thing:

      Board of Education Approves Significant Actions to Address Franklin City Public Schools’ Shortfalls

      http://www.doe.virginia.gov/news/news_releases/2014/03_mar27.shtml

      there are REAL consequences for school systems that fail to attain fully accredited status – the longer and lower you fail – the more the state gets involved.

      The myth here is that schools can’t fix kids with uneducated single parents – but the proof is that there are quite a number of schools that do succeed – so we do know how to do it.

    2. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      TMT – I’m amazed at that perspective. We rank 15th in the world behind most Asian counties and most European countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and we say that we can’t fix this.

      if this is true – we are doomed as a country.

      but I want to keep taking you – and Jim back to this fundamental quandary and that is why do schools with equivalent demographics – i.e. have larger populations of economically disadvantaged and minorities….

      why do different school have wildly different fail rates for these same demographics?

      If you wanted to argue that no matter what we do – we lose – say 10% and you could find no school with a lower fail rate – then that would become your “floor” rate – across the boards – we accept the “reality” that we lose 10%.

      but how do you explain some schools with equal pass rates for ED or minorities while other schools have 50% fail rates?

      how do you explain that?

      Both you and Jim seem to have the view – that no matter what the fail rate is at any particular school – it’s the floor rate and all those kids are lost .. It 50% at one school and 10% at another with the same demographics.

      how is this explained?

      1. James A. Bacon Avatar
        James A. Bacon

        How is the variation you speak of explained? Some schools are run better than others. Some schools have charismatic leaders for principals. Other schools have drones. Some schools have inspired teachers. Other schools have drudges.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          Well this is a huge step forward! As opposed to “culture” that we cannot do anything about , we now say that it’s due to the school and it’s staff!

          wow!

          If you believe this – do you think it might also include the skill and experience of the individual teachers? In other words – a low performing schools is probably not the result of a monolithically bad group of teachers and principle?

          and that those kinds of things can be improved and actually VDOE requires each school that has not maintained – to submit an plan of improvement?

          I see schools in Va with horrendously high rates of economically disadvantaged due to horrendously high unemployment and poverty rates in the community – that have passing rates better than many other schools in school districts with these higher disparities. Virginia classifying schools are low performing – not the students and not the teachers or principle but the school – and tells those schools to adopt the practices of the schools that are high performing.. because, in fact, we DO have high performing schools even though they have high percentages of ED in the enrollment.

          I see this as a breakthrough here.. unless you’re gonna tell me that not only can we not fix students but we can’t fix schools either – and you do have one in your own county – in a district with some very high performing schools, some of the best in Va – you also have a few that are not and one that has actually been denied accreditation – worse than Lynchburg!

          that denial is going to bring state into your local school business now – and it will be interesting as to what happens next – and I certainly do hope you highlight it in your writings since it is in your own back yard!

          1. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            There are a lot of things we can do to help our schools — indeed, our entire educational system — to narrow the gap between socioeconomic classes and ethnic groups. And we should do them. It is a moral imperative that we do everything within our power (short of raising taxes, I agree with TMT on that one) to close the gap and give every kid a shot at getting ahead in life.

            That said, the fact remains that there are differences between cultures. I don’t hear anyone disputing the idea that superior academic performance by Asians in school can be explained by their more education-achievement culture. The only controversy is to what extent culture is a factor explaining differences between whites, blacks and Hispanics.

            I have been doing some reading and thinking about this, and I hope to post something in the future. My sense is that once you adjust for income and English-as-Second-Language, there is very little gap between whites and Hispanics. But a difference remains between whites and blacks. What “cultural” attributes could I be talking about?

            First, we recognize that black culture in America is no more monolithic than white culture. Recent African and West Indian immigrants have different cultures than African-Americans. African-Americans who identify as “Christian” (a lifestyle choice that carries a lot of meaning) have different cultural attributes than non-practicing Christians. (Black Muslims have different cultural attributes as well.) Some African-Americans, especially those in the middle and professional classes, have largely “mainstream” cultural attributes.

            That said, there are some distinguishing cultural traits that may affect the academic performance of some African-Americans.

            * Dialect. Remember the big ebonics controversy? To the extent that African-Americans have an identifiable dialect that is different from the mainstream American dialect, it can affect their reading and writing performance.

            * Social pressure against “acting white.” This trait may arise from the assertion of African-American identity in the face of a history of discrimination. But insofar as African-American students equate academic excellence with “acting white,” this phenomenon may discourage academic achievement, particularly in middle and high schools where peer pressure is very strong.

            * The lure of the street. Gangsta rap glorifies and legitimizes the worst aspects of the African-American street culture, which, needless to say, does not hold academic achievement in high regard. There is no counterpart in white culture to gangsta rap, not even heavy metal. Middle-class white boys can imitate the gangsta-rap culture but, for the most part, they’re pretty insulated from it. African-American kids living in the inner city are immersed in it. The gangsta-rap culture exerts a strong appeal for many kids that African-American parents have to struggle extra hard against to protect their kids from.

            I would like to hear from readers why they think these cultural traits — by no means universal, but fairly prevalent — would not affect African-Americans’ academic achievement.

          2. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            “There are a lot of things we can do to help our schools — indeed, our entire educational system — to narrow the gap between socioeconomic classes and ethnic groups. And we should do them. It is a moral imperative that we do everything within our power (short of raising taxes, I agree with TMT on that one) to close the gap and give every kid a shot at getting ahead in life.”

            disparities between schools – stay on topic

            “That said, the fact remains that there are differences between cultures. I don’t hear anyone disputing the idea that superior academic performance by Asians in school can be explained by their more education-achievement culture. The only controversy is to what extent culture is a factor explaining differences between whites, blacks and Hispanics.”

            do you KNOW that there ARE schools where Asians do not score the top scores? How do you explain that from a “culture” point of view? Do you know there are schools where Blacks score tops? how do you explain that?

            “I have been doing some reading and thinking about this, and I hope to post something in the future. My sense is that once you adjust for income and English-as-Second-Language, there is very little gap between whites and Hispanics. But a difference remains between whites and blacks. What “cultural” attributes could I be talking about?”

            I would support you getting to specifics and especially explaining why the black scores vary by schools and in some schools there is almost no gap or schools where blacks have the top scores…

            “First, we recognize that black culture in America is no more monolithic than white culture. Recent African and West Indian immigrants have different cultures than African-Americans. African-Americans who identify as “Christian” (a lifestyle choice that carries a lot of meaning) have different cultural attributes than non-practicing Christians. (Black Muslims have different cultural attributes as well.) Some African-Americans, especially those in the middle and professional classes, have largely “mainstream” cultural attributes.”

            I totally agree – now go one step further and PROVE that no matter what school – that blacks score less by huge margins.. until you can do that – then you’re cherrypicking to support a narrative that sounds – racist and enables those who are.

            That said, there are some distinguishing cultural traits that may affect the academic performance of some African-Americans.

            * Dialect. Remember the big ebonics controversy? To the extent that African-Americans have an identifiable dialect that is different from the mainstream American dialect, it can affect their reading and writing performance.

            again – can you show this at all schools? can you show it as a common baseline that is found at all schools?

            * Social pressure against “acting white.” This trait may arise from the assertion of African-American identity in the face of a history of discrimination. But insofar as African-American students equate academic excellence with “acting white,” this phenomenon may discourage academic achievement, particularly in middle and high schools where peer pressure is very strong.

            once they get to middle and high with inferior education and not much hope for the future – yes.

            “* The lure of the street. Gangsta rap glorifies and legitimizes the worst aspects of the African-American street culture, which, needless to say, does not hold academic achievement in high regard. There is no counterpart in white culture to gangsta rap, not even heavy metal. Middle-class white boys can imitate the gangsta-rap culture but, for the most part, they’re pretty insulated from it. African-American kids living in the inner city are immersed in it. The gangsta-rap culture exerts a strong appeal for many kids that African-American parents have to struggle extra hard against to protect their kids from.”

            again – if you want to convince me this is REALLY endemic to the culture then explain why it’s not apparent in all schools.

            “I would like to hear from readers why they think these cultural traits — by no means universal, but fairly prevalent — would not affect African-Americans’ academic achievement.”

            Did I tell you about this school:

            Black reading 92
            white reading 86
            hispanic reading 75
            econ disabled 75

            tell me now about gangta rap and thinking “white” again

            don’t talk about outliers.. tell me how the blacks in this school are different and don’t engage in gangta rap and thinking white.

          3. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            Jim – you’re a cost-benefit man or at least I thought.

            why would you stipulate no new taxes on the front end of a issue even if it meant higher end costs downstream?

            you talk about all the efforts to get guys out of prison back into a productive taxpayer role but why not keep him from becoming a prisoner to start with?

            if you REALLY believed that culture is the issue why would you support helping felons get jobs or for that matter helping schools at all… isn’t that just money down the drain if culture is the problem?

      2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        Larry, we may well be doomed over the long run. We are importing poverty and no-skilled labor while other nations are welcoming skilled people. We tolerate (hell enable) single parent families whose goal is often to find the next fix. We manufacture problem families to keep the professional caring class employed. Shame in society is gone unless you don’t support higher taxes.

        It takes both a commitment from society to fund schools and a commitment from the families to make them work for their children for any chance of success. Fire one-half of non-teaching staff and use the savings to raise teacher salaries and provide additional reading and math support for K-3. Run public service messages that shame parents not involved in their kid’s education. Enforce the immigration laws against employers. Fine the crap out of them. Hold principals to higher standards. But it would be cruel to demand anything from anyone except more tax money.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          TMT – are the other countries we are competing against not having these issues?

          1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Larry, most of our competitors are encouraging immigration of skilled and educated people. As you know, the United States has a perverse union of businesses determined to undercut wages and liberals seeking clientele to keep the professional caring class employed and to find more Democratic voters. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/mar/08/immigrationandpublicservices.immigration

            I sense, but do not know, that there is a greater sense of shame in many Asian nations than in the United States.

          2. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            TMT – so liberal policies encouraging immigration of unskilled workers is causing the disparities in the SOL scores for schools?

          3. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Larry, talk to teachers and administrators in any school system that has a high number of children who are illegally in the U.S., whose parents are illegally in the U.S. or both. They will tell you the ground needed to cover is beyond the pale and, often, there is very little interaction with parents. Yet, we are permitting them to come in to the U.S. and take resources away from other children and drive down results.
            Now, of course, these are not the only children who are clogging up the system. Lots of parents from all races and ethnic backgrounds don’t give a ____ about their kids’ educations. Bringing back some shame to society would help in some cases.

          4. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            TMT – they have the numbers right on the SOL reports guy.

            do you see schools with large numbers of illegal immigrants?

            but beyond that – this particular discussion has been primarily about blacks and the achievement gap with whites and “culture”, “genes”, gangsta rap and “acting white”.

            where can you point to the SOL gap as an illegal immigrant problem?

            by the way – I DO talk to teachers and administrators – and it’s NOT a problem down our way… I’m trying to think of any school in our district that has great numbers of Hispanics..legal or illegal and it’s just not a problem.

            I’ve shown ample evidence that there are significant disparities in pass rates for the SAME demographic in the SAME school district between neighborhood schools and have asked why that is – and the last answer was gangsta rap…

            BUT why would you make Immigration a PART of this SOL gap issue when you have Fairfax schools that have failed accreditation that have very low numbers of Hispanics anyhow? How does that have anything to do with the SOL gap between whites and blacks?

            You seem, sometimes, to tie all partisan issues into one huge ball.. no? You’re unwilling to address any one of them unless all are addressed at the same time.

            How can you go forward on ANYTHING that way?

            Isn’t it essentially a vote to gridlock?

          5. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Larry, my point is schools cannot fix everything even when they put an extraordinary amount of extra resources into schools with lots of poor children and children from screwed up homes. I’m not arguing against adding more resources. But in many instances, just pouring more money into these schools won’t bring about the desired outcome.

            Left to my teacher’s instruction alone, I would not know the multiplication tables today (nor would likely my three brothers). My dad made each of us go through them for hours in 3rd grade. We fought him; we yelled; we cried, but we were forced to learn the 2s through the 12s. But for my dad’s persistence, I would not have passed my teacher’s test.

            We can add math teachers. We can provide additional help with multiplication. But, at least for some kids whose parents are either too busy looking for their next fix; working three jobs a day; or who don’t know the multiplication tables themselves, odds are many of these kids simply won’t master multiplication — at least not in the primary grades.

            At some point, people are responsible for themselves and their kids. As JFK said, “Life isn’t always fair.”

            We need to provide opportunity. We cannot guarantee results.

          6. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            TMT – we cannot fix everything – I totally agree – but you cannot have inequity either . it’s WRONG to have disparities where some kids get the resources they need and others do not.

            opportunity is not enough when it’s not provided equitably.

          7. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            All I can say is that, in Fairfax County, low income kids get a lot more resources than other kids receive. I don’t know whether this is true in other parts of the state. I would not buy a lack of resources reason for failure in FCPS.

          8. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            I don’t think you’ve proven that at all TMT. Until I see a school-by-school breakdown of two things:

            1. – total salaries for that school
            2. – total experience of the teachers at that school

            I’m just hearing words with no evidence.

            and for the moment, let ASSUME it is TRUE

            how do you explain the significant difference in academic performance between schools with the same demographics – and in your assertion – both getting higher levels of funding?

            how do you explain that? How can Fairfax spend the same amount of additional money on 5 different schools and the academic performance can vary by 30 points?

  8. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    There are REAL consequences for failing to achieve fully accreditation:

    Accredited with Warning
    A school receives an Accredited with Warning rating if its
    adjusted pass rates for the four core subjects are below the
    achievement levels required for full accreditation. Schools that
    receive this rating undergo academic reviews and are required to
    adopt and implement school improvement plans.

    Schools that are
    warned in English and/or mathematics are also REQUIRED TO ADOPT
    instructional programs proven by research to be effective in
    raising achievement in these subjects. A school may hold this
    rating for no more than three consecutive years.

    In addition, high schools earning a GCI less than the provisional
    benchmark for the year are rated as Accredited with Warning.

    Accreditation Denied
    A school is rated Accreditation Denied if it fails to meet the
    requirements for full accreditation for four consecutive years.
    Any school denied accreditation must provide parents and other
    interested parties the following:

     Written notice of the school’s accreditation rating within
    30 calendar days of the announcement of the rating by the
    Virginia Department of Education (VDOE);

     A copy of the school division’s proposed corrective action
    plan describing the steps to be taken to raise achievement
    to state standards, including a timeline for implementation;
    and

     An opportunity to comment on the division’s proposed
    corrective action plan prior to its adoption and the signing
    of a memorandum of understanding between the local
    school board and the Board of Education.

    The local school board — within 45 days of receiving notice of
    the status — must submit to the Board of Education a proposed
    corrective action plan. The Board of Education will consider the
    proposal and develop a memorandum of understanding with the
    local school board, which must be implemented by November 1.
    Also, the local school board must submit status reports detailing
    the implementation of actions prescribed in the memorandum of
    understanding; and the principal, division superintendent and
    local school board chairman may be required to appear before the
    Board of Education to present status reports.
    Additionally, in any school division where one-third or more of
    the schools have been denied accreditation, the local school
    board is required to evaluate the division superintendent and
    submit a copy of the evaluation to the Board of Education by
    December 1. The Board of Education may take action — as
    permitted by the Standards of Quality — against the local school
    board due to the failure of the local board to maintain accredited

    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/statistics_reports/school_report_card/accountability_guide.pdf

  9. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    and I want to give CREDIT to the Henrico County school system for forthrightly providing on their own website – the results of the VDOE accreditation for Henrico:

    http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/instruction/Accreditation.html

    this is an honest disclosure – that we’re not seeing in most Va Schools and Henrico deserves to be recognized for disclosing the info and allow some level of accountability from taxpayers.

    and we need to point out that Wilder Middle School was denied state accreditation for 2014-15.

    what does that mean? It means they went four years without achieving the SOLs. and after 4 years – they are denied accreditation and the state starts intervening…

    here’s the data:

    School Year Division School RaceEthnicity
    Economically Disadvantaged Subject Area Pass Rate

    Henrico Cnty Wilder Middle Black N English:Reading 57.24%
    Henrico Cnty Wilder Middle Black Y English:Reading 40.89%
    ( there are about 900 kids in this school and about 20 white so there
    are no white scores).

    Henrico Cnty Hungary Creek Middle Black N English:Reading 69.12%
    Henrico Cnty Hungary Creek Middle Black Y English:Reading 60.00%
    Henrico Cnty Hungary Ck Middle White N English:Reading 86.19%
    Henrico Cnty Hungary Ck Middle White Y English:Reading 71.43%

    the race breakout looks like this: 463 50.5% white) 256 (27.9%) black

    Henrico Cnty Rolfe Middle Black N English:Reading 62.14%
    Henrico Cnty Rolfe Middle Black Y English:Reading 48.07%
    Henrico Cnty Rolfe Middle White N English:Reading 74.42%
    Henrico Cnty Rolfe Middle White Y English:Reading 53.62%

    race percent for Rolfe looks like this: 126 (12%)white 843 (80.4%) black

  10. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: ” It is a moral imperative that we do everything within our power (short of raising taxes, ”

    but you’re okay with entitlements and prison costs?

    the problem with you guys is that you’re like 5 year olds.

    you don”t like the choices so you refuse to choose!

    choose a path.. or admit you have no solutions but prison and welfare.

  11. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    entered into evidence:
    Y= ED
    N= not ED
    the school is 22% free and reduced.. with about 500 students total

    An Elementary in Va White Y English Reading 76.19%
    An Elementary in Va Black Y EnglishReading

    An Elementary in Va White N English Reading 87.39%
    An Elementary in Va Black N English Reading 88.89%

    An Elementary in Va White Y Mathematics 66.67%
    An Elementary in Va Black Y Mathematics

    An Elementary in Va White N Mathematics 91.60%
    An Elementary in Va Black N Mathematics 94.44%

    An Elementary in Va Hispanic N English Reading 76.00%
    An Elementary in Va Hispanic Y English Reading 73.68%

    An Elementary in Va Hispanic Y Mathematics 78.95%
    An Elementary in Va Hispanic N Mathematics 92.00%

    Bonus Question – are these black kids acting “white”?

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