The Logic for Rural Broadband Subsidies

Source: “Bringing Broadband to America”

by James A. Bacon

Reputable estimates of the cost of making high-capacity Internet service universal across the United States run in the $80-billion to $85-billion range, but the society-wide benefits may be worth the outlay, argues Alexander Marré, a Baltimore-based regional economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond in a recent paper.

There are multiple benefits, Marré contends. Broadband has positive effects for business-location decisions and employment growth in rural areas, research data shows (although effects can be stronger in rural areas that are closer to metropolitan areas than more remote regions). Broadband also enables rural consumers to choose from a wider array of goods and services, potentially saving more than $1,000 per household. High-speed Internet also can improve the efficiency of rural labor markets. It can improve access to healthcare via telemedicine and distance learning. And, as a desirable amenity, it can boosts home values.

The  low density of businesses and households makes deployment of broadband infrastructure costlier than in metropolitan areas, and for-profit telecom companies can’t justify the low return on investment. But if the social benefits are as extensive as Marré contends, rural communities have a different cost-benefit calculus. His article explores several alternatives for bringing broadband to rural communities, including a Shenandoah Telecommunications (Shentel) projectin Virginia.

In his article, “Bringing Broadband to Rural America,” published in the Richmond Fed’s Community Scope December 2020 edition, Marré writes:

[Shentel] is beginning to offer fixed wireless service called “Beam Internet.”46,47 Shentel invested $17 million in spectrum licenses in Virginia, West Virginia, and Ohio and is providing 25 Mbps download speed service. The technology can support speeds up to 100 Mbps, which bodes well for the future as speed demands rise. The technology can be deployed in a matter of months rather than the years it takes to lay fiber. Each tower can serve customers within a five-mile radius if there are no significant obstacles in the way.

Another approach is letting electrical cooperatives the legal authority to extend broadband from the fiber-optic backbone installed along its electric distribution lines. The cooperatives’ easements and utility poles can significantly reduce the cost. Nationally, electric cooperatives could shave between $8 billion and $15 billion from the $80 billion tab of extending fiber to every unserved home. In the Fifth Federal Reserve district, the Choptank Electric Cooperative on Maryland’s Eastern Shore lobbied the Maryland legislature to let the cooperative provide broadband to 54,000 customers within its nine-county service area.

Marré also points to Public Private Partnerships, which can combine public and private funds, as a tool for financing rural broadband. In West Virginia, for instance, the Appalachian Regional Commission granted $2.35 million in seed money to a partnership that includes Marshall University, Marshall Health, and Mountain Health Network.

“It can be costly to get broadband to rural areas, but the potential payoff is high,” Marré writes. “Comparing the costs of expansion against the subsidies available today shows that more subsidies are needed to close the gap. Engaging electrical cooperatives, using alternative technologies, and, in some instances, public-private partnerships work best for getting the job done.”

Bacon’s bottom line: As a rule, I oppose government economic subsidies on the grounds that they misallocate resources from high-return investments to lower-return investments. Rural broadband, like rural electrification, might be an exception to the rule — especially if local communities have skin in the game.

It’s one thing to take federal and state government handouts. Free money? Sure, why not? It can’t hurt. Sorry, that kind of logic is not good enough. If communities believe strongly enough in the value of broadband, they should tap their own resources — electric co-ops, phone companies, municipalities, community foundations, universities, hospitals, and other major players — to make it happen.

One strategy that I never see mentioned is is rural densification. Rural settlement patterns in Virginia, as with the most of the U.S., is extremely dispersed. That requires more infrastructure per customer, which drives up-front capital costs. It would be interesting to compare broadband deployment in Europe where rural inhabitants cluster in villages, which in theory should drive down the cost per customer.

Perhaps rural Americas should embrace village-like settlement patterns. Twelve years ago Bacon’s Rebellion highlighted the thinking of Claude Lewenz, an American-turned-New Zealander, who had written a manual on “How to Build a Village.” His vision offered several distinct advantages, among them a sharp reduction of infrastructure costs — roads, utilities, broadband — per household. I still think it’s a brilliant idea. Such a community might need zero subsidies to support state-of-the-art Internet connectivity.

Update: One big hole in the paper was any discussion of low-earth-orbit satellite broadband. Elon Musk’s StarLink could be such a game changer that it could render earth-based alternatives irrelevant. On Facebook Jack Kennedy posts the map shown above. “Space-based broadband can eliminate this need in this calendar year,” he writes. “Want not for expensive fiber expansion with a Starlink connection.”


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78 responses to “The Logic for Rural Broadband Subsidies”

  1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Scare letter being sent by DPVA…
    “Dean,

    Recently in a floor speech in the Virginia Senate, Amanda “Trump in Heels” Chase declared herself to be the “frontrunner” in the race for governor because she has the most Virginia donors of any candidate — Democrat or Republican. Here’s the thing: She’s right.

    In her most recent filing with the Department of Elections, Chase’s campaign listed 841 individual donors from around Virginia. The next closest Democrat only had 785.

    We know that winning campaigns begin with large grassroots efforts. Chase seems to be building momentum, and we need our own grassroots donors to step up and help us make sure a Democrat sits in the governor’s mansion in 2022.”

    Funny, that should be sent to the RPV members not Democrats. As Flounder says, “Oh boy! This is going to be GREAT.”

    Trump in heels? Mini-Marjorie!

  2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Scare letter being sent by DPVA…
    “Dean,

    Recently in a floor speech in the Virginia Senate, Amanda “Trump in Heels” Chase declared herself to be the “frontrunner” in the race for governor because she has the most Virginia donors of any candidate — Democrat or Republican. Here’s the thing: She’s right.

    In her most recent filing with the Department of Elections, Chase’s campaign listed 841 individual donors from around Virginia. The next closest Democrat only had 785.

    We know that winning campaigns begin with large grassroots efforts. Chase seems to be building momentum, and we need our own grassroots donors to step up and help us make sure a Democrat sits in the governor’s mansion in 2022.”

    Funny, that should be sent to the RPV members not Democrats. As Flounder says, “Oh boy! This is going to be GREAT.”

    Trump in heels? Mini-Marjorie!

  3. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Now that’s the party that has an open racist (Blackface Northam) in the Governor’s mansion and an open religious bigot and bar exam-flunker as Vice President. What’s this have to do with broadband?

    The problem with satellite broadband is latency. Wireless technology can help with the “last mile” connections, but, just like, cell service, you need a lot of fiber optic cables.

    1. Supposedly StarLink does not have latency issues. The satellites are in low earth orbit.

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        It would reduce latency. But I’m still skeptical.

  4. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Now that’s the party that has an open racist (Blackface Northam) in the Governor’s mansion and an open religious bigot and bar exam-flunker as Vice President. What’s this have to do with broadband?

    The problem with satellite broadband is latency. Wireless technology can help with the “last mile” connections, but, just like, cell service, you need a lot of fiber optic cables.

    1. Supposedly StarLink does not have latency issues. The satellites are in low earth orbit.

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        It would reduce latency. But I’m still skeptical.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    One might think (perhaps wrongly) that cable internet could get to any house the same way that electricity and phone landline do or at the least to the pole that feeds power/telephone to the house.

    but I also have a “whatabout” question and that is – if this is done , will it actually result in more and more folks moving from the cities to the rural exurbs? Will it spur sprawl?

  6. LarrytheG Avatar

    One might think (perhaps wrongly) that cable internet could get to any house the same way that electricity and phone landline do or at the least to the pole that feeds power/telephone to the house.

    but I also have a “whatabout” question and that is – if this is done , will it actually result in more and more folks moving from the cities to the rural exurbs? Will it spur sprawl?

  7. NVAQuaker Avatar

    I serve on the Rappahannock Electric Cooperative board – please know the electric coops are working very hard to find solutions for rural broadband and are actively building fiber infrastructure as it makes financial sense. Ultimately fiber to the home or business is what is going to be needed to provide real economic benefits. Two quick comments, from all the briefings and classes I have been through – Musk’s low earth sattelite solution doesn’t have the speeds or bandwidth that will be needed over time – it is a good stop-gap – but it does not offer the latency to scale to operate businesses. Next – the latest wild card and roadblock is there is litigation to prevent co-ops from using existing right-aways. There is no wasy to easily provide rural broad band if new right-aways have to be established for every installation. It is a sad case of a small group not looking out for the greater good.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’ve heard the same thing about Musk’s starlink. Yes the satellites are in low earth orbit but you have to ask yourself once you get the data from your computer to that satellite, where does it go? That ought to tell you something.

      And second, if there is something keeping REC from deploying cable internet, we need to find out who the obstacle is and address it and yes, I do suspect it’s the same cable providers who say rural broadband is not cost effective FOR THEM.

      Finally, if we do rural broadband, AND right now we have decided that working from home is feasible – guess what? Now.. the question is if they live 80 miles from their job and can do work at home on internet, how many times a week will they hop in a car and commute?

  8. NVAQuaker Avatar

    I serve on the Rappahannock Electric Cooperative board – please know the electric coops are working very hard to find solutions for rural broadband and are actively building fiber infrastructure as it makes financial sense. Ultimately fiber to the home or business is what is going to be needed to provide real economic benefits. Two quick comments, from all the briefings and classes I have been through – Musk’s low earth sattelite solution doesn’t have the speeds or bandwidth that will be needed over time – it is a good stop-gap – but it does not offer the latency to scale to operate businesses. Next – the latest wild card and roadblock is there is litigation to prevent co-ops from using existing right-aways. There is no wasy to easily provide rural broad band if new right-aways have to be established for every installation. It is a sad case of a small group not looking out for the greater good.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’ve heard the same thing about Musk’s starlink. Yes the satellites are in low earth orbit but you have to ask yourself once you get the data from your computer to that satellite, where does it go? That ought to tell you something.

      And second, if there is something keeping REC from deploying cable internet, we need to find out who the obstacle is and address it and yes, I do suspect it’s the same cable providers who say rural broadband is not cost effective FOR THEM.

      Finally, if we do rural broadband, AND right now we have decided that working from home is feasible – guess what? Now.. the question is if they live 80 miles from their job and can do work at home on internet, how many times a week will they hop in a car and commute?

  9. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Yep, of course — somebody chooses to live in the boondocks, low taxes, away from the troublemakers, and it is my problem to provide them with the advantages of living in a denser location? SURE it is. The user should pay. If it erases some of the low-tax benefit of living in a hick backwater, well, boo hoo. More bills are passing to bury these costs on electric bills — need to take time to dig into those.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I notice Jim B has changed his tune about sprawl and “paying for your location”

      In fairness, the same argument could be – and was used with rural electricity.

      1. I haven’t really changed my thinking about people paying their location-based costs. Most of the post is simply quoting Alexander Marré, who adds some new perspectives to the discussion.

        Insofar as subsidies may be justifiable, I suggested that rural communities need to put skin in the game if they think the society benefits are so great. I certainly don’t favor open-ended subsidies from urban areas to rural. I totally appreciate Steve’s point of view above.

        Also I alluded to the Lewenz village concept, which argues that villages (as he envisions them) can lead to lower location-based costs.

      2. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        And I’m open to a cooperative approach similar to what was done with rural electrification. I’m open to some cross subsidization. But many believe they should have all the same services at the same cost as in the more dense areas, and the economics just don’t work that way.

        1. djrippert Avatar

          And the people who live in high density areas should pay sky high tolls for their road transportation infrastructure because that’s just a cost of living in a high density area.

          Jim Webb used to write books about the fiercely independent, self sufficient Scots-Irish that settled what is now rural mountainous Virginia. Whatever happened to that self-sufficiency?

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Hey, those isolated folks need access to QAnon too.

    3. Steve H: The NoVA/DC/Northeast come-heres drive a lot of the calls for rural broadband for all…at public expense. The local education lobby joins in with that.

      I accepted the downside of DSL 2.5 Mbps download/.75 upload as the tradeoff for the advantages of a clean, natural environment with less than 3% hardscape, but Verizon no longer offers new installations. If Verizon would provide functional cell service throughout the county instead of allowing an increasing number of dead zones each year, hot spots would serve a lot more people. Putting repeaters on Dominion poles would provide a lot of last mile access, but the broadband providers want the upfront money for other infrastructure first. The local govt and grant money ends up going to them, and they own it all.

      Densification may look like a great idea from some points of view, but there are negative impacts when it comes to water supply and sewage. In the Middle Peninsula, it costs $1 million per mile for 27 miles of force transmission lines to the Peninsula for HRSD sewage treatment, not counting pumping stations and other equipment (all at local taxpayer expense- no grants, no HRSD input) plus an installation and monthly fee for users.

      Exporting sewage addresses the limitations on the number, type and location of septic systems, but it also exports water that doesn’t get recycled into the local aquifers. (Septic systems recycle 95-99% of the water.) Outside the crater, there is already a diminishing supply in the Potomac and Piney Point aquifers due to urban drawdown. Inside the crater–Mathews, a bit of Middlesex, and southern part of the Eastern Shore–the Yorktown-Eastover aquifer is the primary drinking water resource which unlike those outside the crater, is adequate for more than 50 years supply with minimal population growth. Increased demand without septic water recycling will deplete the water supply beyond its recharge capability.

      Rural roads, at least here with narrow, two lane secondaries, can’t handle much more traffic. As it is, the evacuation route for the southern part of Mathews goes through the central village (with its 450 residents) and it is underwater every heavy rainfall because the original 1920’s open ditches were filled in and no drainage pipes were ever installed. VDOT just nixed the grant to add that drainage (and lighting and new sidewalks) in favor of projects like “… the Middle Peninsula Planning District Commission’s application for $800,940 for a multi-use or shared pedestrian and bicycle path on Route 33 near and in Deltaville, and Richmond County’s application for $427,193 for a 10-foot-wide asphalt multi-use public trail from a parking area to the little league ball park.[Gazette Journal 12/30/20].”

      The comp plan’s idea for crossroads hamlets wants residents to live in apartments over stores and bike or walk to everything. Horses don’t do well in that environment, and carrying hay on a bike to further out areas isn’t really an option.

      People who want city environments, should find them in the cities or develop new ones in urban commercial areas that failed and leave rural areas alone.

      1. djrippert Avatar

        “Rural roads, at least here with narrow, two lane secondaries, can’t handle much more traffic.”

        Sounds like it’s time for tolls. That is the answer politicians like Terry McAulliffe have for any increased spending need in NoVa. Why should we have all the fun of paying ridiculous tolls?

  10. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Yep, of course — somebody chooses to live in the boondocks, low taxes, away from the troublemakers, and it is my problem to provide them with the advantages of living in a denser location? SURE it is. The user should pay. If it erases some of the low-tax benefit of living in a hick backwater, well, boo hoo. More bills are passing to bury these costs on electric bills — need to take time to dig into those.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Hey, those isolated folks need access to QAnon too.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      I notice Jim B has changed his tune about sprawl and “paying for your location”

      In fairness, the same argument could be – and was used with rural electricity.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        And I’m open to a cooperative approach similar to what was done with rural electrification. I’m open to some cross subsidization. But many believe they should have all the same services at the same cost as in the more dense areas, and the economics just don’t work that way.

        1. djrippert Avatar

          And the people who live in high density areas should pay sky high tolls for their road transportation infrastructure because that’s just a cost of living in a high density area.

          Jim Webb used to write books about the fiercely independent, self sufficient Scots-Irish that settled what is now rural mountainous Virginia. Whatever happened to that self-sufficiency?

      2. I haven’t really changed my thinking about people paying their location-based costs. Most of the post is simply quoting Alexander Marré, who adds some new perspectives to the discussion.

        Insofar as subsidies may be justifiable, I suggested that rural communities need to put skin in the game if they think the society benefits are so great. I certainly don’t favor open-ended subsidies from urban areas to rural. I totally appreciate Steve’s point of view above.

        Also I alluded to the Lewenz village concept, which argues that villages (as he envisions them) can lead to lower location-based costs.

    3. Steve H: The NoVA/DC/Northeast come-heres drive a lot of the calls for rural broadband for all…at public expense. The local education lobby joins in with that.

      I accepted the downside of DSL 2.5 Mbps download/.75 upload as the tradeoff for the advantages of a clean, natural environment with less than 3% hardscape, but Verizon no longer offers new installations. If Verizon would provide functional cell service throughout the county instead of allowing an increasing number of dead zones each year, hot spots would serve a lot more people. Putting repeaters on Dominion poles would provide a lot of last mile access, but the broadband providers want the upfront money for other infrastructure first. The local govt and grant money ends up going to them, and they own it all.

      Densification may look like a great idea from some points of view, but there are negative impacts when it comes to water supply and sewage. In the Middle Peninsula, it costs $1 million per mile for 27 miles of force transmission lines to the Peninsula for HRSD sewage treatment, not counting pumping stations and other equipment (all at local taxpayer expense- no grants, no HRSD input) plus an installation and monthly fee for users.

      Exporting sewage addresses the limitations on the number, type and location of septic systems, but it also exports water that doesn’t get recycled into the local aquifers. (Septic systems recycle 95-99% of the water.) Outside the crater, there is already a diminishing supply in the Potomac and Piney Point aquifers due to urban drawdown. Inside the crater–Mathews, a bit of Middlesex, and southern part of the Eastern Shore–the Yorktown-Eastover aquifer is the primary drinking water resource which unlike those outside the crater, is adequate for more than 50 years supply with minimal population growth. Increased demand without septic water recycling will deplete the water supply beyond its recharge capability.

      Rural roads, at least here with narrow, two lane secondaries, can’t handle much more traffic. As it is, the evacuation route for the southern part of Mathews goes through the central village (with its 450 residents) and it is underwater every heavy rainfall because the original 1920’s open ditches were filled in and no drainage pipes were ever installed. VDOT just nixed the grant to add that drainage (and lighting and new sidewalks) in favor of projects like “… the Middle Peninsula Planning District Commission’s application for $800,940 for a multi-use or shared pedestrian and bicycle path on Route 33 near and in Deltaville, and Richmond County’s application for $427,193 for a 10-foot-wide asphalt multi-use public trail from a parking area to the little league ball park.[Gazette Journal 12/30/20].”

      The comp plan’s idea for crossroads hamlets wants residents to live in apartments over stores and bike or walk to everything. Horses don’t do well in that environment, and carrying hay on a bike to further out areas isn’t really an option.

      People who want city environments, should find them in the cities or develop new ones in urban commercial areas that failed and leave rural areas alone.

      1. djrippert Avatar

        “Rural roads, at least here with narrow, two lane secondaries, can’t handle much more traffic.”

        Sounds like it’s time for tolls. That is the answer politicians like Terry McAulliffe have for any increased spending need in NoVa. Why should we have all the fun of paying ridiculous tolls?

  11. The Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite systems being deployed by Musk’s SpaceX (Starlink) and Jeff Bezos (Blue Origin) and Apple (AppleFi) will provide widespread coverage to rural areas throughout the world at a fraction of the cost of fiber-based systems.

    Musk wants a world-wide system to support autonomous vehicles. Bezos wants his e-commerce empire to be available everywhere. And Apple doesn’t want to give away billions of iPhone and monthly streaming service revenues to AT&T and Verizon.

    The early tests of the basic Starlink system shows 100Mbs download speed and 32 millisecond latency (undetectable). The latency applies to the geosynchronous satellites that are 22,000 miles beyond the earth, not to the LEO satellites that orbit just a few hundred miles above the surface.

    The transmission speeds and latency can be improved with software advances with minimal cost. The Starlink system connects each satellite in a grid (eventually planetary) that will greatly speed long-distance transmission.

    Fiber-based systems, even if expanded, will provide a fraction of the geographic coverage, will be far more expensive to install, and ultimately, not as fast.

    It is a waste of ratepayer and taxpayer money to provide rate increases and subsidies for this endeavor. The utilities want get paid extra to own the network to collect their smart-meter data, while looking like they are providing a public benefit. The benefit of giving more of our population access to high-speed connectivity is real, but the LEO satellites are the best way to do it.

    1. Exactly. If StarLink lives up to its billing, it makes no sense to subsidize rural fiber. People need to take a deep breath and see how the technology shakes out.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Here’s the thing you need to ask about starlink. After it leaves your house and gets to a starlink satellite – how does you data then get to a server like Google or Bacon’s Rebellion? Where does it go from starlink ? How does it get back to a ground-based cable and thence to the server?

        I’m a skeptic of Starlink as a complete system.

        It could be a combination of ground-based cable along all secondary roads then Starlink the last mile but I think cell towers are also doing that.

        In terms of “subsidy” think rural electric – think of the rural electrification program – a subsidy – but for an important infrastructeure that enabled productivity for farms in rural areas. Internet is now more of a necessary utility that an “amenity”.

        Think of what happens when you pull into a gas pump in the country. How are you paying? by card swipe at the pump? how is that communicating with the bank card server?

        1. idiocracy Avatar

          It looks like if broadband isn’t available the gas stations use 3G or 4G cellular to communicate with the bank card server.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            they do if there is a cell tower nearby! 😉

            We’ve been to NPS “national parks” out in the boondocs and at least one of them was using a “hotspot” for their credit card transactions.

            We’ve been all through the US and often in the rural and out in the boondocs… and pretty much pay attention to what kind of access is available. Campground WiFis mostly suck. Every now and then you run into a good one but more often than not they’re not.

          2. idiocracy Avatar

            With a Yagi cellular antenna on the roof, the gas station could be using a cell tower as far as 30 miles away; well past the distance at which your handheld cell phone could connect. They could possibly go further but some of the cellular protocols have a distance limit; even if the signal strength is good, they won’t connect.

          3. Larry,

            One of the reasons I go camping is to get away from wifi and all its attendant BS . I have no idea how good the wifi service is at any campground I’ve ever visited because I have never tested it.

            I recommend you consider following that path – it’s very relaxing.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            Wayne – do you do research on things like routes and things you want to see the next day or perhaps when you want to camp next in a few days or where to find supplies, etc?

            I highly recommend being “organized” so you can better enjoy your time out camping. Every try it or just bumble along instead?

          5. Larry,

            Our organization comes before the trip starts.

            My family and I had MANY very enjoyable and successful camping trips before the internet was born. Plus, I know how to read a map.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          well yes, but doing that for a campground with 50 rigs… 😉
          the word “sucks” comes to mind… yeah you got some “bars” … try to move data!

        3. idiocracy Avatar

          Well, it is true that credit card authorizations are not very bandwidth intensive.

          The first Verifone ZON credit card authorization terminal had a 300 baud modem in it.

    2. djrippert Avatar

      I worked on the Iridium project back in the day. There were some pretty serious business model issues with that LEOS configuration, especially as a consumer device. Maybe those problems have been solved. I don’t know.

  12. The Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite systems being deployed by Musk’s SpaceX (Starlink) and Jeff Bezos (Blue Origin) and Apple (AppleFi) will provide widespread coverage to rural areas throughout the world at a fraction of the cost of fiber-based systems.

    Musk wants a world-wide system to support autonomous vehicles. Bezos wants his e-commerce empire to be available everywhere. And Apple doesn’t want to give away billions of iPhone and monthly streaming service revenues to AT&T and Verizon.

    The early tests of the basic Starlink system shows 100Mbs download speed and 32 millisecond latency (undetectable). The latency applies to the geosynchronous satellites that are 22,000 miles beyond the earth, not to the LEO satellites that orbit just a few hundred miles above the surface.

    The transmission speeds and latency can be improved with software advances with minimal cost. The Starlink system connects each satellite in a grid (eventually planetary) that will greatly speed long-distance transmission.

    Fiber-based systems, even if expanded, will provide a fraction of the geographic coverage, will be far more expensive to install, and ultimately, not as fast.

    It is a waste of ratepayer and taxpayer money to provide rate increases and subsidies for this endeavor. The utilities want get paid extra to own the network to collect their smart-meter data, while looking like they are providing a public benefit. The benefit of giving more of our population access to high-speed connectivity is real, but the LEO satellites are the best way to do it.

    1. Exactly. If StarLink lives up to its billing, it makes no sense to subsidize rural fiber. People need to take a deep breath and see how the technology shakes out.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Here’s the thing you need to ask about starlink. After it leaves your house and gets to a starlink satellite – how does you data then get to a server like Google or Bacon’s Rebellion? Where does it go from starlink ? How does it get back to a ground-based cable and thence to the server?

        I’m a skeptic of Starlink as a complete system.

        It could be a combination of ground-based cable along all secondary roads then Starlink the last mile but I think cell towers are also doing that.

        In terms of “subsidy” think rural electric – think of the rural electrification program – a subsidy – but for an important infrastructeure that enabled productivity for farms in rural areas. Internet is now more of a necessary utility that an “amenity”.

        Think of what happens when you pull into a gas pump in the country. How are you paying? by card swipe at the pump? how is that communicating with the bank card server?

        1. idiocracy Avatar

          It looks like if broadband isn’t available the gas stations use 3G or 4G cellular to communicate with the bank card server.

          1. idiocracy Avatar

            With a Yagi cellular antenna on the roof, the gas station could be using a cell tower as far as 30 miles away; well past the distance at which your handheld cell phone could connect. They could possibly go further but some of the cellular protocols have a distance limit; even if the signal strength is good, they won’t connect.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            they do if there is a cell tower nearby! 😉

            We’ve been to NPS “national parks” out in the boondocs and at least one of them was using a “hotspot” for their credit card transactions.

            We’ve been all through the US and often in the rural and out in the boondocs… and pretty much pay attention to what kind of access is available. Campground WiFis mostly suck. Every now and then you run into a good one but more often than not they’re not.

          3. Larry,

            One of the reasons I go camping is to get away from wifi and all its attendant BS . I have no idea how good the wifi service is at any campground I’ve ever visited because I have never tested it.

            I recommend you consider following that path – it’s very relaxing.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            Wayne – do you do research on things like routes and things you want to see the next day or perhaps when you want to camp next in a few days or where to find supplies, etc?

            I highly recommend being “organized” so you can better enjoy your time out camping. Every try it or just bumble along instead?

          5. Larry,

            Our organization comes before the trip starts.

            My family and I had MANY very enjoyable and successful camping trips before the internet was born. Plus, I know how to read a map.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          well yes, but doing that for a campground with 50 rigs… 😉
          the word “sucks” comes to mind… yeah you got some “bars” … try to move data!

        3. idiocracy Avatar

          Well, it is true that credit card authorizations are not very bandwidth intensive.

          The first Verifone ZON credit card authorization terminal had a 300 baud modem in it.

    2. djrippert Avatar

      I worked on the Iridium project back in the day. There were some pretty serious business model issues with that LEOS configuration, especially as a consumer device. Maybe those problems have been solved. I don’t know.

  13. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Starlink Train #13 will be passing over us in about 20 minutes. Did you know they altered the orbit to reduce brightness. Astronomers have been complaining.
    https://findstarlink.com/#38.719,North,77.7416,West;3

  14. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Starlink Train #13 will be passing over us in about 20 minutes. Did you know they altered the orbit to reduce brightness. Astronomers have been complaining.
    https://findstarlink.com/#38.719,North,77.7416,West;3

  15. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Rural counties face two interrelated problems. The first is the companies like Verizon and Cox have monopolies and the second is the so-called last mile problem. In rural developments with density providers make fiber available as well as wi-fi. Where the density doesn’t meet their criteria, they simply will not make the service available. Counties can be creative without turning to government for a subsidy. Public-Private partnerships are a popular approach.
    Counties that towers for police and fire response can rent space on the towers for wi-fi transponders. That won’t provide 100% coverage but it will reduce the area that is unserved.
    If government comes in with its tax revenue, counties have no incentive to exhaust their options first.

  16. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Rural counties face two interrelated problems. The first is the companies like Verizon and Cox have monopolies and the second is the so-called last mile problem. In rural developments with density providers make fiber available as well as wi-fi. Where the density doesn’t meet their criteria, they simply will not make the service available. Counties can be creative without turning to government for a subsidy. Public-Private partnerships are a popular approach.
    Counties that towers for police and fire response can rent space on the towers for wi-fi transponders. That won’t provide 100% coverage but it will reduce the area that is unserved.
    If government comes in with its tax revenue, counties have no incentive to exhaust their options first.

  17. Where I live the County is partnering with Central Virginia Electric Cooperative to bring fiber optic broad band to underserved areas. As noted above, CVEC has a lot of easements already in place which has helped them reduce their cost. Additionally, CVEC and the county were somehow able to get Dominion to allow their easements to be used, so even those of us who are Dominion customers will be offered service from a CVEC subsidiary called Firefly Fiber Broadband.

    They’re advertising 1Gbps download & upload speeds for $80 per month. They installed the fiver optic along the road in front of my house back in November and ran a fiber optic service line to my house just before Christmas, but they have not yet returned to make the house connection. They are supposed to be making that connection some time this month.

    We (especially my teenaged son) are really looking forward to having it. Our current provider maxes out at 5-10 Mbps.

    I’ll let ya’ll know how it turns out.

    On the economic impact front, there was recently an announcement that a large printing company will be moving to the county some time this year. They’ll be occupying an old furniture factory that shut down about 15 year ago. The availability of highspeed broad band was a significant factor when they were choosing where to locate their business .

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Oh! Underserved. I thought you said “undeserved”. But, it reads okay that way too.

      There’s some high tech computer vision an graphics company in Bassett(?) in the old high school building. Moved there 10+ years ago. Wonder how that worked out?

  18. Where I live the County is partnering with Central Virginia Electric Cooperative to bring fiber optic broad band to underserved areas. As noted above, CVEC has a lot of easements already in place which has helped them reduce their cost. Additionally, CVEC and the county were somehow able to get Dominion to allow their easements to be used, so even those of us who are Dominion customers will be offered service from a CVEC subsidiary called Firefly Fiber Broadband.

    They’re advertising 1Gbps download & upload speeds for $80 per month. They installed the fiver optic along the road in front of my house back in November and ran a fiber optic service line to my house just before Christmas, but they have not yet returned to make the house connection. They are supposed to be making that connection some time this month.

    We (especially my teenaged son) are really looking forward to having it. Our current provider maxes out at 5-10 Mbps.

    I’ll let ya’ll know how it turns out.

    On the economic impact front, there was recently an announcement that a large printing company will be moving to the county some time this year. They’ll be occupying an old furniture factory that shut down about 15 year ago. The availability of highspeed broad band was a significant factor when they were choosing where to locate their business .

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Oh! Underserved. I thought you said “undeserved”. But, it reads okay that way too.

      There’s some high tech computer vision an graphics company in Bassett(?) in the old high school building. Moved there 10+ years ago. Wonder how that worked out?

  19. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jimbo.As Lenin said: “communism is Soviet power plus electrification of the entire country.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Lenin didn’t have social media and QAnon… or did he?

      He also said, “Imagine”.

  20. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jimbo.As Lenin said: “communism is Soviet power plus electrification of the entire country.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Lenin didn’t have social media and QAnon… or did he?

      He also said, “Imagine”.

  21. Matt Hurt Avatar

    As we speak, 45 families in Wise County who just a month ago did not have access to any kind of internet (other than satellite) are currently enjoying their new Starlink service. It is my understanding that this is the first educational pilot that was fired up (a Texan division got their contract first, but the Wise County kids actually realized service first). I suspect that every public dollar spent on wired broadband from this point is wasted.

  22. Matt Hurt Avatar

    As we speak, 45 families in Wise County who just a month ago did not have access to any kind of internet (other than satellite) are currently enjoying their new Starlink service. It is my understanding that this is the first educational pilot that was fired up (a Texan division got their contract first, but the Wise County kids actually realized service first). I suspect that every public dollar spent on wired broadband from this point is wasted.

  23. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: NoVa Tolls.

    The tolls pay for the additional infrastructure needed for rush hour.

    And NoVa gets subsidized for where their electricity is generated, your food grown and trash distributed and their sewage and stormwater into the Potomac.

    Imagine if you had to do all of that “in-region”!

    Country boys can survive. City boys, not so much!

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Yes, I consider them all trolls up there!

      Oh, tolls.

      Not that it matters much, but I paid $1.25 each way on the HRBT so somebody could build I-66.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        tolls and trolls! NoVa folks don’t “get it”. There is not enough road for all of them to be driving at the same time! It’s not a rural conspiracy to take their roads or money! Congestion/HOT tolls work almost exactly now airline ticket prices. You go in the busiest time and you’re gonna pay. Even then, if you carpool or take transit, you can still go free. You can EVEN drive SOLO at rush hour for free. No even the airlines will do that!

  24. djrippert Avatar

    Sounds like rural broadband will be a huge benefit to rural jurisdictions. Great! Those jurisdictions need to borrow the money required to implement the broadband and then pay off the debt with the increased taxes that economic expansion brings. Simple, right? Why is this even an issue for those outside of rural communities? Could it be that the people in those communities don’t actually believe the “business cases” provide by Baltimore-based regional economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond?

  25. djrippert Avatar

    Sounds like rural broadband will be a huge benefit to rural jurisdictions. Great! Those jurisdictions need to borrow the money required to implement the broadband and then pay off the debt with the increased taxes that economic expansion brings. Simple, right? Why is this even an issue for those outside of rural communities? Could it be that the people in those communities don’t actually believe the “business cases” provide by Baltimore-based regional economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond?

  26. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ” Larry,

    Our organization comes before the trip starts.

    My family and I had MANY very enjoyable and successful camping trips before the internet was born. Plus, I know how to read a map.”

    same here but once out – you want flexibility. We typically not lock ourselves in with reservations. We plan ahead and plan during.

    And yep, paper road maps plus GPS plus Google maps.

    We do 6-8 weeks at a time. And I have done remote Canadian canoe trips for 3 weeks or so – absolutely no internet!

  27. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ” Larry,

    Our organization comes before the trip starts.

    My family and I had MANY very enjoyable and successful camping trips before the internet was born. Plus, I know how to read a map.”

    same here but once out – you want flexibility. We typically not lock ourselves in with reservations. We plan ahead and plan during.

    And yep, paper road maps plus GPS plus Google maps.

    We do 6-8 weeks at a time. And I have done remote Canadian canoe trips for 3 weeks or so – absolutely no internet!

  28. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: NoVa Tolls.

    The tolls pay for the additional infrastructure needed for rush hour.

    And NoVa gets subsidized for where their electricity is generated, your food grown and trash distributed and their sewage and stormwater into the Potomac.

    Imagine if you had to do all of that “in-region”!

    Country boys can survive. City boys, not so much!

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Yes, I consider them all trolls up there!

      Oh, tolls.

      Not that it matters much, but I paid $1.25 each way on the HRBT so somebody could build I-66.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        tolls and trolls! NoVa folks don’t “get it”. There is not enough road for all of them to be driving at the same time! It’s not a rural conspiracy to take their roads or money! Congestion/HOT tolls work almost exactly now airline ticket prices. You go in the busiest time and you’re gonna pay. Even then, if you carpool or take transit, you can still go free. You can EVEN drive SOLO at rush hour for free. No even the airlines will do that!

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