Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

The House of Delegates’ Hidden Pay Raise

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

Like last year, members of the House of Delegates will get to pocket $211 daily per diems for attending the General Assembly — even though they’ll be sitting in virtually and incurring no meal and lodging expenses. Reports Virginia Public Media:

The so-called “session payment” rate is pegged to federal estimates of Richmond meal and hotel prices. Unlike formal per diems normally given to lawmakers who travel to Richmond during session, the 2021 payments are subject to taxes.

The payments are separate from part-time delegates’ annual salary ($17,640), office stipend ($15,000 for most delegates) and compensation for non-session meetings ($300 for a half-day, $400 for a full day). Each lawmaker’s legislative assistant will also collect the $211. Del. Kirk Cox (R-Colonial Heights) and Del. Nick Freitas (R-Culpeper) have declined the payments, according to Elizabeth Mancano, the House’s chief communications officer.

In a 30-day General Assembly session, the back-door pay raise amounts to about $6,000.

There’s a case to be made for boosting the pay for General Assembly members. The salary hasn’t increased since 1988. With each passing year, serving in elected office represents a financial hardship, increasingly accessible only to those who are wealthy, are retired, or have figured out how to monetize the personal contacts and relationships they forge doing the “peoples’ business.”

But if you’re going to boost salaries, be honest and upfront about it. Don’t look like you’re running a scam. Public trust in the political process is low — but it can always get lower.

— JAB

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83 responses to “The House of Delegates’ Hidden Pay Raise”

  1. S. E. Warwick Avatar
    S. E. Warwick

    And they want people with medical training to volunteer their skills to administer the vaccine.

  2. S. E. Warwick Avatar
    S. E. Warwick

    And they want people with medical training to volunteer their skills to administer the vaccine.

  3. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: “honest and up-front”.

    Yep, and there won’t be any “gotcha” stuff at elections either, right?

    Both sides do this – so that those who vote yes will be pointed out by those who hold back and say no, so “back-door” happens.

    I note that more than a few of the appointed citizens for the voting district map re-dreaw list their incomes as greater than 200K.

    If we want a true citizen legislature, and we actually want them to do real work , and NOT get tangled up with influence money, then we need to pay them and especially true of citizens from the less economically prosperous places in Virginia.

    I think the way we do it right now, encourages bad actors and discourages honest grassroots citizens from wanting to actually run for office.

    Many of the folks in the legislature seem to be “connected” party operatives with links to corporate and private money.

    Make the pay 100K a year and outlaw influence money and other backdoor skullduggery and you’ll attract people besides party operatives.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      “Party operatives?” Do you actually know any of the 140 or their outside careers? A full-time legislature disconnected from the economy would be a big mistake. We’re making lots of them now, in response to the clueless…I worry more about who we would attract if the salary is their motivation….

      The salaries are too low. The per diem should not be allowed if they are not actually coming to Richmond. But it is the IRS that determines the per diem amount. The untold story is to get the payments for 2020 and see which legislators took it during the Virtual House sessions and which did not.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        The pay is too low, and it’s can’t be upgraded to what it ought to be because of “gotcha” party operatives.

        Yep.

        Don’t like 21-19 in the Senate? How about 5-10 independents who are not beholden to either party?

        The “actually work in the economy idea” has problems. If someone actually has a real full-time job, how can they possibly devote themselves well to GA work?

        We have folks that are well-off in the economy so that, they actually have employees tending to their businesses while they “work” in the GA. Some of these folks are influenced more by business and politics than ordinary citizen concerns.

        And I wonder about folks like Bobby Orrock – supposedly a full time school teacher who is also a full time Delgate at the same time school is normally in session. How does that work? Is the school cutting him slack on his school duties? Is he actually at the school (in non pandemic times) when the GA is in session and taking votes?

        Sen Bryce Reeves owns an insurance company. How is he operating that business at the same time he is in Richmond voting?

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          The teachers take a leave of absence for several weeks. A small business person of course hands the day to day over to a partner or employee. Lawyers are usually in larger practices, or run up billables nights and weekends. I have seen it work extremely well, and having legislators with real world careers is a huge benefit. The lack of business owners is really starting to tell. It has been very clear on these topics you are just a gadfly, not actually engaged. Don’t turn this into Congress, gawd…

          We actually have people now who are DeeCee lobbyists, and that I do not like. That should raise eyebrows….

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: gadfly.

            ha ha bahahah

            Tell me how can an owner of an insurance business effectively represents the interests of consumers of insurance?

            Same problem any business owners, no?

            What party do most of those business owners gravitate towards?

            You have an entire party in Virginia who fought tooth and nail against the Medicaid expansion… who were those legislators actually loyal to? Certainly not those who worked and could not afford insurance…

            I still say – have some number of truly independent folks not affiliated with either party and you loosen their stranglehold as well as lobbyists which I do understand your alliegence but even you admit some decisive actions that were wrong because of influence… you openly admit this… yet you also defend it.

            I am not looking for nirvana or utopia. I know the real world is political by practice and convention and by necessity but when large numbers of elected voted to neuter the SCC, they are clearly not representing consumers… yet – as a party – that’s the required vote.

          2. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            You are just as detached from reality as the folks who showed up at the Capitol two weeks ago….I should know better than to argue with you.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: “deranged” – uh huh… geeze guy…

            re: ” The teachers take a leave of absence for several weeks. A small business person of course hands the day to day over to a partner or employee.”

            Okay, forget the 100K and we pay the salary they currently earn and guarantee them their job back …

            how about that?

            The way the GA currently works – it’s mega conflicts of interest -for many… thats obvious.

            We need to remove some of those conflicts and make it easier for non-party independents to compete and get elected.

        2. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
          vaconsumeradvocate

          Bobby is a retired teacher now. He paid a substitute teacher to cover for him – and checked in regularly about things he’d left for the classes to do – while he was still teaching.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I knew he was close and I thought he did an okay job… voting with the GOP more than I liked but I also doubt that many regular teachers could afford to pay for their own substitute so they could go play in the GA… that sort of proves the point about being “wealthy”.

            I can just see a 3rd grade elementary teacher asking the School BOard for several weeks of paid leave while he/she go off and do the GA then return to their job after.

            I had asked Orrock way back when if he would sponsor the ability of citizens to initiate advisory-only referenda – basically to get the sense of the voters but leave the GA to vote their conscience. He did not like it, was skeptical and would not sponsor it.

      2. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        The untold story is to see which of the legislators counted the $211 per day as taxable income which I assume it is since it is not an offset to actual expenses incurred. Nothing would be better for Virginia than the spotlight on institutional corruption in the GA that a broad tax evasion investigation would bring.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      Mr. Larry the delegate that serves my district is a cattle farmer. Well respected in the community and I think his working class roots help him connect to his constituents. 100K? Why not 200K? We don’t need to pay them a dime more than they are already making. No Great Dismal Swamp please.
      https://michael-webert.com/about-michael/

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        So, I’ve updated my suggestion to – pay them what they have been earning but require them to work full-time during the GA.

        So I ask this. Does the cattle farmer understand and represent those he hires to work?

        I’d ask that of any business owner – how do they manage conflicts between what the interests of his/her business is and those who work there or buy stuff there?

        1. djrippert Avatar
          djrippert

          “I’d ask that of any business owner – how do they manage conflicts between what the interests of his/her business is and those who work there or buy stuff there?”

          They don’t. Conflicts of interest that helps the legislators’ businesses are a perk of holding the office. Otherwise, practicing lawyers in the General Assembly would recuse themselves from voting for or against the judges who will hear their cases.

          There is deep, deep rot in Richmond but the state news media has no interest in exposing it. Maybe now that PE companies are replacing the plantation elite who used to own the state news media there will be more willingness to cover controversial matters that cast doubt on “The Virginia Way”.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” There is deep, deep rot in Richmond but the state news media has no interest in exposing it. Maybe now that PE companies are replacing the plantation elite who used to own the state news media there will be more willingness to cover controversial matters that cast doubt on “The Virginia Way”.”

            Yep, but according to Haner… pointing this out is “unhinged” …and worse than what the rioters did!

            😉

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I’m with Steve on this. A “citizen” legislature is best, although it does favor those who are wealthy, own their own businesses, or have employers who are willing to provide the flexibility needed to participate in the legislature. I disagree that most members are connected party operatives. In fact, there is more diversity in terms of occupations than ever before. It is a benefit to have farmers, lawyers, insurance agents, doctors, pharmacists, grocery store owners, contractors, small business owners, etc. who can bring some real life experience to the consideration bills that are somewhat abstract.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead V

        Well stated Mr. Dick. One of our Warrenton hometown heroes, Jerry Wood just passed away. Long time pharmacist and community servant. He only served one term in the House of Delegates but he is exactly the kind of fellow that Richmond needs. He went to Richmond to represent us all in Fauquier. Sure will miss seeing him at the Frost Diner. He always had a good story to tell.
        https://www.fauquiernow.com/fauquier_news/obituary/fauquier-jerry-m-wood-2021

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          James- the same question pops up. How can someone who is a Pharmacists – do that work and still do GA work?

          It’s two full-time jobs…no?

          Did Mr. Wood have someone else doing his job when he was gone to do GA work?

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            Mr. Larry, Jerry Wood never saw the pharmacy, being a delegate, founding the Boys and Girls Club in Warrenton as work. He called this service. Doer’s don’t really have “jobs”.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            James, there may be a misunderstanding here. I am not dissing GA members who serve who are wealthy enough to not have to work at a work-a-day job to make a living and have chosen to serve in the GA, nor am I advocating that they be thrown out. I’m advocating that some work-a-day folks be able to join them to represent a very large group of constituents – work-a-day citizens.

            Many of the current elected are FINE people, but they simply lack the perspective of actual ordinary citizens and that perspective is needed when writing laws that affect people.

            And, we could do this fairly easily if we had a compact /law that allowed any citizen that wanted to run for office – to be paid their existing salary and guarantee their job just as we do for some other kinds of “service”. This would really be no different than how the current members have someone do their job while they are at the G.A.

            And why not? All those lawyers, cattlemen, pharmacists, insurance company owners OUGHT to have some truly ordinary citizens in their group when making laws that affect most ordinary citizens!

            I’d also add the ability of citizens to initiate referenda like they already can do , provide an ability for their citizens to directly let legislators know – as a group – how voters feel about legislation.

            https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/8/8d/US_Map_I%26R.png

            Let’s get rid of the “Virginia Way” which is really an elitist idea of royals who supposedly know more than average citizens,
            governing to start with.

            When the legislature is busy pre-filing bills, let citizens vote in referenda letting legislators know what citizens are thinking.

            I want to see legislators be just as concerned about how voters feel than they do with regard to their respective parties.

            How about it? Give some arguments against it.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “A ‘citizen’ legislature is best, although it does favor those who are wealthy, own their own businesses, or have employers who are willing to provide the flexibility needed to participate in the legislature.”

        Then, I favor a draft. It is a punishment we should all risk equally.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          I have long thought that a draft, or even a lottery, would be the best way to choose our representatives:

          “We KNOW you do not want to go, but it is our TURN. Now quit whining and get to the people’s business”.

          If the working conditions rare made miserable enough then no one will want to serve more than one term. It could work at both the state and federal levels.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: “honest and up-front”.

    Yep, and there won’t be any “gotcha” stuff at elections either, right?

    Both sides do this – so that those who vote yes will be pointed out by those who hold back and say no, so “back-door” happens.

    I note that more than a few of the appointed citizens for the voting district map re-dreaw list their incomes as greater than 200K.

    If we want a true citizen legislature, and we actually want them to do real work , and NOT get tangled up with influence money, then we need to pay them and especially true of citizens from the less economically prosperous places in Virginia.

    I think the way we do it right now, encourages bad actors and discourages honest grassroots citizens from wanting to actually run for office.

    Many of the folks in the legislature seem to be “connected” party operatives with links to corporate and private money.

    Make the pay 100K a year and outlaw influence money and other backdoor skullduggery and you’ll attract people besides party operatives.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      “Party operatives?” Do you actually know any of the 140 or their outside careers? A full-time legislature disconnected from the economy would be a big mistake. We’re making lots of them now, in response to the clueless…I worry more about who we would attract if the salary is their motivation….

      The salaries are too low. The per diem should not be allowed if they are not actually coming to Richmond. But it is the IRS that determines the per diem amount. The untold story is to get the payments for 2020 and see which legislators took it during the Virtual House sessions and which did not.

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        The untold story is to see which of the legislators counted the $211 per day as taxable income which I assume it is since it is not an offset to actual expenses incurred. Nothing would be better for Virginia than the spotlight on institutional corruption in the GA that a broad tax evasion investigation would bring.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        The pay is too low, and it’s can’t be upgraded to what it ought to be because of “gotcha” party operatives.

        Yep.

        Don’t like 21-19 in the Senate? How about 5-10 independents who are not beholden to either party?

        The “actually work in the economy idea” has problems. If someone actually has a real full-time job, how can they possibly devote themselves well to GA work?

        We have folks that are well-off in the economy so that, they actually have employees tending to their businesses while they “work” in the GA. Some of these folks are influenced more by business and politics than ordinary citizen concerns.

        And I wonder about folks like Bobby Orrock – supposedly a full time school teacher who is also a full time Delgate at the same time school is normally in session. How does that work? Is the school cutting him slack on his school duties? Is he actually at the school (in non pandemic times) when the GA is in session and taking votes?

        Sen Bryce Reeves owns an insurance company. How is he operating that business at the same time he is in Richmond voting?

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          The teachers take a leave of absence for several weeks. A small business person of course hands the day to day over to a partner or employee. Lawyers are usually in larger practices, or run up billables nights and weekends. I have seen it work extremely well, and having legislators with real world careers is a huge benefit. The lack of business owners is really starting to tell. It has been very clear on these topics you are just a gadfly, not actually engaged. Don’t turn this into Congress, gawd…

          We actually have people now who are DeeCee lobbyists, and that I do not like. That should raise eyebrows….

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: “deranged” – uh huh… geeze guy…

            re: ” The teachers take a leave of absence for several weeks. A small business person of course hands the day to day over to a partner or employee.”

            Okay, forget the 100K and we pay the salary they currently earn and guarantee them their job back …

            how about that?

            The way the GA currently works – it’s mega conflicts of interest -for many… thats obvious.

            We need to remove some of those conflicts and make it easier for non-party independents to compete and get elected.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: gadfly.

            ha ha bahahah

            Tell me how can an owner of an insurance business effectively represents the interests of consumers of insurance?

            Same problem any business owners, no?

            What party do most of those business owners gravitate towards?

            You have an entire party in Virginia who fought tooth and nail against the Medicaid expansion… who were those legislators actually loyal to? Certainly not those who worked and could not afford insurance…

            I still say – have some number of truly independent folks not affiliated with either party and you loosen their stranglehold as well as lobbyists which I do understand your alliegence but even you admit some decisive actions that were wrong because of influence… you openly admit this… yet you also defend it.

            I am not looking for nirvana or utopia. I know the real world is political by practice and convention and by necessity but when large numbers of elected voted to neuter the SCC, they are clearly not representing consumers… yet – as a party – that’s the required vote.

          3. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            You are just as detached from reality as the folks who showed up at the Capitol two weeks ago….I should know better than to argue with you.

        2. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
          vaconsumeradvocate

          Bobby is a retired teacher now. He paid a substitute teacher to cover for him – and checked in regularly about things he’d left for the classes to do – while he was still teaching.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I knew he was close and I thought he did an okay job… voting with the GOP more than I liked but I also doubt that many regular teachers could afford to pay for their own substitute so they could go play in the GA… that sort of proves the point about being “wealthy”.

            I can just see a 3rd grade elementary teacher asking the School BOard for several weeks of paid leave while he/she go off and do the GA then return to their job after.

            I had asked Orrock way back when if he would sponsor the ability of citizens to initiate advisory-only referenda – basically to get the sense of the voters but leave the GA to vote their conscience. He did not like it, was skeptical and would not sponsor it.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      Mr. Larry the delegate that serves my district is a cattle farmer. Well respected in the community and I think his working class roots help him connect to his constituents. 100K? Why not 200K? We don’t need to pay them a dime more than they are already making. No Great Dismal Swamp please.
      https://michael-webert.com/about-michael/

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        So, I’ve updated my suggestion to – pay them what they have been earning but require them to work full-time during the GA.

        So I ask this. Does the cattle farmer understand and represent those he hires to work?

        I’d ask that of any business owner – how do they manage conflicts between what the interests of his/her business is and those who work there or buy stuff there?

        1. djrippert Avatar
          djrippert

          “I’d ask that of any business owner – how do they manage conflicts between what the interests of his/her business is and those who work there or buy stuff there?”

          They don’t. Conflicts of interest that helps the legislators’ businesses are a perk of holding the office. Otherwise, practicing lawyers in the General Assembly would recuse themselves from voting for or against the judges who will hear their cases.

          There is deep, deep rot in Richmond but the state news media has no interest in exposing it. Maybe now that PE companies are replacing the plantation elite who used to own the state news media there will be more willingness to cover controversial matters that cast doubt on “The Virginia Way”.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” There is deep, deep rot in Richmond but the state news media has no interest in exposing it. Maybe now that PE companies are replacing the plantation elite who used to own the state news media there will be more willingness to cover controversial matters that cast doubt on “The Virginia Way”.”

            Yep, but according to Haner… pointing this out is “unhinged” …and worse than what the rioters did!

            😉

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I’m with Steve on this. A “citizen” legislature is best, although it does favor those who are wealthy, own their own businesses, or have employers who are willing to provide the flexibility needed to participate in the legislature. I disagree that most members are connected party operatives. In fact, there is more diversity in terms of occupations than ever before. It is a benefit to have farmers, lawyers, insurance agents, doctors, pharmacists, grocery store owners, contractors, small business owners, etc. who can bring some real life experience to the consideration bills that are somewhat abstract.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead V

        Well stated Mr. Dick. One of our Warrenton hometown heroes, Jerry Wood just passed away. Long time pharmacist and community servant. He only served one term in the House of Delegates but he is exactly the kind of fellow that Richmond needs. He went to Richmond to represent us all in Fauquier. Sure will miss seeing him at the Frost Diner. He always had a good story to tell.
        https://www.fauquiernow.com/fauquier_news/obituary/fauquier-jerry-m-wood-2021

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          James- the same question pops up. How can someone who is a Pharmacists – do that work and still do GA work?

          It’s two full-time jobs…no?

          Did Mr. Wood have someone else doing his job when he was gone to do GA work?

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            Mr. Larry, Jerry Wood never saw the pharmacy, being a delegate, founding the Boys and Girls Club in Warrenton as work. He called this service. Doer’s don’t really have “jobs”.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            James, there may be a misunderstanding here. I am not dissing GA members who serve who are wealthy enough to not have to work at a work-a-day job to make a living and have chosen to serve in the GA, nor am I advocating that they be thrown out. I’m advocating that some work-a-day folks be able to join them to represent a very large group of constituents – work-a-day citizens.

            Many of the current elected are FINE people, but they simply lack the perspective of actual ordinary citizens and that perspective is needed when writing laws that affect people.

            And, we could do this fairly easily if we had a compact /law that allowed any citizen that wanted to run for office – to be paid their existing salary and guarantee their job just as we do for some other kinds of “service”. This would really be no different than how the current members have someone do their job while they are at the G.A.

            And why not? All those lawyers, cattlemen, pharmacists, insurance company owners OUGHT to have some truly ordinary citizens in their group when making laws that affect most ordinary citizens!

            I’d also add the ability of citizens to initiate referenda like they already can do , provide an ability for their citizens to directly let legislators know – as a group – how voters feel about legislation.

            https://cdn.ballotpedia.org/images/8/8d/US_Map_I%26R.png

            Let’s get rid of the “Virginia Way” which is really an elitist idea of royals who supposedly know more than average citizens,
            governing to start with.

            When the legislature is busy pre-filing bills, let citizens vote in referenda letting legislators know what citizens are thinking.

            I want to see legislators be just as concerned about how voters feel than they do with regard to their respective parties.

            How about it? Give some arguments against it.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “A ‘citizen’ legislature is best, although it does favor those who are wealthy, own their own businesses, or have employers who are willing to provide the flexibility needed to participate in the legislature.”

        Then, I favor a draft. It is a punishment we should all risk equally.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          I have long thought that a draft, or even a lottery, would be the best way to choose our representatives:

          “We KNOW you do not want to go, but it is our TURN. Now quit whining and get to the people’s business”.

          If the working conditions rare made miserable enough then no one will want to serve more than one term. It could work at both the state and federal levels.

  5. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    @LarrytheG – I don’t know what you are talking about withe regard to Steve Haner. He has been explicit in linking unlimited campaign contribution to improper behavior in Richmond. Steve can certainly correct me if I am misstating his opinion. In fact, as far as I know, every regular contributor to this blog – regardless of their political party / beliefs – think the unlimited campaign contributions are a problem. Again, I’m happy to hear from “the gang” if that’s not true.

    Virginia’s Republicans are in full retreat across the state. They need a catalyst to stage a comeback. Capping the unlimited contributions could be such a catalyst. Certainly, they could pillory the Majority Leader of the Virginia Senate – Dick Saslaw – with that point. Of course, they’d have to expose themselves on the matter and be willing to live within the cap but … when you’ve got nothing you’ve got nothing to lose.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      There is more than unlimited campaign contribution at issue in my view of which Steve seems to not agree and calls “unhinged” or some such.

      You’ve, in fact, been much much critical of the “Virginia Way” and what I think you have characterized as “corruption” which involves more than just campaign contributions, right? Or is it only that?

      What I’ve offered is that the two party system combined with people’s business interests is also at issue and when a small business owner or someone who has a substantial income goes to Richmond – balancing others interests against their own is an issue.

      I point out the owner of an insurance business and how they would balance the interests of his/her business with the interest of those who buy insurance.

      I’d like to see more independents able to run and become elected and function in the General Assembly as neither a “sure” GOP or Dem vote but one that reflects more the interests of those who elected rather than the interests of the person elected – both financiall and with respect to party affiliation.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Larry, you seem to be conflating party membership with conflict of interests. To use your example, let’s say an owner of an insurance business ran as an independent and won. How would she be less likely to balance the interests of her business with the interest of consumers than an insurance company owner who ran and won as a Democrat or Republican?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Dick. In my defense. Who do you think is more likely to look at insurance from a consumers view – a guy that needs it and buys it or a guy that makes his living selling it?

          Now, of those two, which one has an easier path to getting help to get elected? Do you think the GOP would be interested in helping the small business owner getting elected? How much interest would the GOP have in helping the citizen who made a living not selling insurance?

          I just feel that someone who is a small business owner who is wealthy enough to leave his business in the hands his managers is less likely to see the consumers side of insurance issues and way more likely to align with the GOP.

          The non-affliated citizen who cares about insurance issues from a consumer point of view is more likely to align with the Dems but if not wealthy and can’t get a paid absences is a lot less likely to be successful at being able to have enough time to really effectively perform as a legislator.

          So I then asked, what if any citizen who got elected – got whatever salary they earned – paid for by the state and their job guaranteed while they were on “duty” not unlike some National Guard folks.

          In other words, a system where ordinary work-a-day folks could run for election and be independent of either party if they wished – not getting help from either one nor not owing either on a vote on any issue.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Not every bill about insurance, or other subjects, comes down to a test of the interests of the industry vs. that of consumers. Every industry, profession, business, etc. has aspects that are not apparent to someone on the outside. I learned this from sitting in on committee meetings. There were bills that seemed good or bad to me, but after hearing them explained or commented on by people familiar with the subject matter, I realized that I was wrong in my first perception.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So you’re agreeing ! If you actually did hear from a work-a-day person, you’d actually know MORE than if you just heard from a bunch of insurance business owners?

            I have no misconceptions here. I realize that work-a-day folks are not as informed as others and would need significant staff support to bring them up to speed , but I have to say, I’ve run into some pretty thick legislators in my time… they NEED others to help them understand!

            Just take the COVID and workers. How many workers have been interviewed by legislators who actually do work in environments where there is COVID.

            All we hear about is how terrible regulations are to the employers. Screw the workers, right?

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      In response to Don’s comment above: Larry might be referring to me. I have argued that, although unlimited campaign contributions in Virginia do pollute the system, the cure (capping contributions) is worse than the disease. Caps not only violate the right to free speech, they just drive influence-money underground. Campaign contributions, which are transparent, will become “dark money,” which is not. Using money to buy influence won’t disappear, it will just change form.

      I may be the only contributor to this blog who holds that position.

      There are no easy solutions. Everything involves tradeoffs. But as Virginia descends ever deeper into corruption and influence peddling, I may be persuaded to change my position.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        And Jim honestly takes that position rather than sidestep it.

        Here’s what I ask. Why not the gal who waits tables at the Olive Garden or the guy who is a mechanic at the auto dealer or a teacher in the 3rd grade – being able to run for office, not be beholden to money from anyone nor “help” from either the GOP or Dems with an expectation of affiliation?

        We say “citizen legislature” but it’s not real. And it really is misleading because the reality is that few of them are actually truly independent and vote with a true citizen perspective.

        Both parties are wrapped up with influence money and politics way more than is good for most citizens.

        Stever admires some of them who seem to have “principles” and “do the right thing sometimes” but all one needs to do is look at the Dominion/SCC situation to realize that citizens interests are not well represented. Even Steve admits this but then he seems to defend the status quo – like Jim does… for a different reason, maybe.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          Come on, Larry. The “gal who waits tables at Olive Garden” or the mechanic at your local shop will be even more dependent on lobbyists and special interests to help “educate” them on issues.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh it’s TRUE. But do you not even want one or two of them in the GA to represent their perspective and instead just the ones that own small businesses or are wealthy enough to not be dependent on a work-a-day job?

            I just think it’s a perversion of the term – “citizen legislature”.

            No such thing.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            A high school teacher (my delegate), a lawyer, a doctor (my senator), the owner of a concrete business, a farmer, an owner of an auto repair and supply business, a pharmacist–they are all citizen legislators. They do not make their primary living from politics.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            This is the reason why I like the idea of citizen-initiated referenda. It will help bring the GA folks down to the real world and actually force them to deal with the issues or else have citizens do it.

            It gives citizens a real direct role in legislation and forces the elected to actually pay attention to citizens – as well as business and politics.

            Needs to be a high bar and needs to be vetted for Constitutionality but at the end of the day, think citizens views need to be represented no matter how uninformed the elected think they might be.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I just don’t think, with the exception of the school teacher, that these folks represent many work-a-day folks. They are business owners.

          How does the school teacher balance the school job and the GA job?

          I do not advocate that ALL of the GA be work-a-day but that some number of them be that – and I point out how hard that would be for any of them to achieve that.

          No, these guys do not make their living from politics but most of them also do not making a living from a work-a-day job either.

          “citizen” implies (at least to me) ordinary citizens not mostly business owners, lawyers, etc..

          I’m okay with the Pharmacist – what about pharmacy techs?

          Our legislatures tend to be a step or two removed from average workers..in society and the economy and yes… some of them are more than capable of understand the work if they have a staff to help them – no more or less than say a Pharmacists needing to understand how auto/home insurance works.

        3. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          “Why not the gal who waits tables at the Olive Garden or the guy who is a mechanic at the auto dealer or a teacher in the 3rd grade – being able to run for office, not be beholden to money from anyone nor “help” from either the GOP or Dems with an expectation of affiliation?”

          Who’s stopping them?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nothing really but how to be in Richmond during the session and not be earning money at your job.

            Many of those in Richmond have arrangments for their job. Some are owners of small businesses and don’t need support from the employer but if you’re not waiting tables, you’re not paying the rent.

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I tend to agree with Jim, with the exception of the remark about Virginia descending “ever deeper into corruption and influence peddling.” I don’t see that happening.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Can’t. They are buoyed from sinking to greater depths by the bottom.

          1. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            No, They can reach bottom and then start digging.

      3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You’re assuming that uncapped campaign contributions prevents “dark money”. I presume you can show that.

  6. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    @LarrytheG – I don’t know what you are talking about withe regard to Steve Haner. He has been explicit in linking unlimited campaign contribution to improper behavior in Richmond. Steve can certainly correct me if I am misstating his opinion. In fact, as far as I know, every regular contributor to this blog – regardless of their political party / beliefs – think the unlimited campaign contributions are a problem. Again, I’m happy to hear from “the gang” if that’s not true.

    Virginia’s Republicans are in full retreat across the state. They need a catalyst to stage a comeback. Capping the unlimited contributions could be such a catalyst. Certainly, they could pillory the Majority Leader of the Virginia Senate – Dick Saslaw – with that point. Of course, they’d have to expose themselves on the matter and be willing to live within the cap but … when you’ve got nothing you’ve got nothing to lose.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      There is more than unlimited campaign contribution at issue in my view of which Steve seems to not agree and calls “unhinged” or some such.

      You’ve, in fact, been much much critical of the “Virginia Way” and what I think you have characterized as “corruption” which involves more than just campaign contributions, right? Or is it only that?

      What I’ve offered is that the two party system combined with people’s business interests is also at issue and when a small business owner or someone who has a substantial income goes to Richmond – balancing others interests against their own is an issue.

      I point out the owner of an insurance business and how they would balance the interests of his/her business with the interest of those who buy insurance.

      I’d like to see more independents able to run and become elected and function in the General Assembly as neither a “sure” GOP or Dem vote but one that reflects more the interests of those who elected rather than the interests of the person elected – both financiall and with respect to party affiliation.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Larry, you seem to be conflating party membership with conflict of interests. To use your example, let’s say an owner of an insurance business ran as an independent and won. How would she be less likely to balance the interests of her business with the interest of consumers than an insurance company owner who ran and won as a Democrat or Republican?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Dick. In my defense. Who do you think is more likely to look at insurance from a consumers view – a guy that needs it and buys it or a guy that makes his living selling it?

          Now, of those two, which one has an easier path to getting help to get elected? Do you think the GOP would be interested in helping the small business owner getting elected? How much interest would the GOP have in helping the citizen who made a living not selling insurance?

          I just feel that someone who is a small business owner who is wealthy enough to leave his business in the hands his managers is less likely to see the consumers side of insurance issues and way more likely to align with the GOP.

          The non-affliated citizen who cares about insurance issues from a consumer point of view is more likely to align with the Dems but if not wealthy and can’t get a paid absences is a lot less likely to be successful at being able to have enough time to really effectively perform as a legislator.

          So I then asked, what if any citizen who got elected – got whatever salary they earned – paid for by the state and their job guaranteed while they were on “duty” not unlike some National Guard folks.

          In other words, a system where ordinary work-a-day folks could run for election and be independent of either party if they wished – not getting help from either one nor not owing either on a vote on any issue.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Not every bill about insurance, or other subjects, comes down to a test of the interests of the industry vs. that of consumers. Every industry, profession, business, etc. has aspects that are not apparent to someone on the outside. I learned this from sitting in on committee meetings. There were bills that seemed good or bad to me, but after hearing them explained or commented on by people familiar with the subject matter, I realized that I was wrong in my first perception.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So you’re agreeing ! If you actually did hear from a work-a-day person, you’d actually know MORE than if you just heard from a bunch of insurance business owners?

            I have no misconceptions here. I realize that work-a-day folks are not as informed as others and would need significant staff support to bring them up to speed , but I have to say, I’ve run into some pretty thick legislators in my time… they NEED others to help them understand!

            Just take the COVID and workers. How many workers have been interviewed by legislators who actually do work in environments where there is COVID.

            All we hear about is how terrible regulations are to the employers. Screw the workers, right?

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      In response to Don’s comment above: Larry might be referring to me. I have argued that, although unlimited campaign contributions in Virginia do pollute the system, the cure (capping contributions) is worse than the disease. Caps not only violate the right to free speech, they just drive influence-money underground. Campaign contributions, which are transparent, will become “dark money,” which is not. Using money to buy influence won’t disappear, it will just change form.

      I may be the only contributor to this blog who holds that position.

      There are no easy solutions. Everything involves tradeoffs. But as Virginia descends ever deeper into corruption and influence peddling, I may be persuaded to change my position.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I tend to agree with Jim, with the exception of the remark about Virginia descending “ever deeper into corruption and influence peddling.” I don’t see that happening.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Can’t. They are buoyed from sinking to greater depths by the bottom.

          1. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            No, They can reach bottom and then start digging.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        You’re assuming that uncapped campaign contributions prevents “dark money”. I presume you can show that.

      3. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        And Jim honestly takes that position rather than sidestep it.

        Here’s what I ask. Why not the gal who waits tables at the Olive Garden or the guy who is a mechanic at the auto dealer or a teacher in the 3rd grade – being able to run for office, not be beholden to money from anyone nor “help” from either the GOP or Dems with an expectation of affiliation?

        We say “citizen legislature” but it’s not real. And it really is misleading because the reality is that few of them are actually truly independent and vote with a true citizen perspective.

        Both parties are wrapped up with influence money and politics way more than is good for most citizens.

        Stever admires some of them who seem to have “principles” and “do the right thing sometimes” but all one needs to do is look at the Dominion/SCC situation to realize that citizens interests are not well represented. Even Steve admits this but then he seems to defend the status quo – like Jim does… for a different reason, maybe.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          Come on, Larry. The “gal who waits tables at Olive Garden” or the mechanic at your local shop will be even more dependent on lobbyists and special interests to help “educate” them on issues.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh it’s TRUE. But do you not even want one or two of them in the GA to represent their perspective and instead just the ones that own small businesses or are wealthy enough to not be dependent on a work-a-day job?

            I just think it’s a perversion of the term – “citizen legislature”.

            No such thing.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            A high school teacher (my delegate), a lawyer, a doctor (my senator), the owner of a concrete business, a farmer, an owner of an auto repair and supply business, a pharmacist–they are all citizen legislators. They do not make their primary living from politics.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            This is the reason why I like the idea of citizen-initiated referenda. It will help bring the GA folks down to the real world and actually force them to deal with the issues or else have citizens do it.

            It gives citizens a real direct role in legislation and forces the elected to actually pay attention to citizens – as well as business and politics.

            Needs to be a high bar and needs to be vetted for Constitutionality but at the end of the day, think citizens views need to be represented no matter how uninformed the elected think they might be.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I just don’t think, with the exception of the school teacher, that these folks represent many work-a-day folks. They are business owners.

          How does the school teacher balance the school job and the GA job?

          I do not advocate that ALL of the GA be work-a-day but that some number of them be that – and I point out how hard that would be for any of them to achieve that.

          No, these guys do not make their living from politics but most of them also do not making a living from a work-a-day job either.

          “citizen” implies (at least to me) ordinary citizens not mostly business owners, lawyers, etc..

          I’m okay with the Pharmacist – what about pharmacy techs?

          Our legislatures tend to be a step or two removed from average workers..in society and the economy and yes… some of them are more than capable of understand the work if they have a staff to help them – no more or less than say a Pharmacists needing to understand how auto/home insurance works.

        3. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          “Why not the gal who waits tables at the Olive Garden or the guy who is a mechanic at the auto dealer or a teacher in the 3rd grade – being able to run for office, not be beholden to money from anyone nor “help” from either the GOP or Dems with an expectation of affiliation?”

          Who’s stopping them?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nothing really but how to be in Richmond during the session and not be earning money at your job.

            Many of those in Richmond have arrangments for their job. Some are owners of small businesses and don’t need support from the employer but if you’re not waiting tables, you’re not paying the rent.

  7. Delegates Receive $8,651 Average in Per Diems from 2021 Sessions – The Virginia Star

    […] Rebellion writer James Bacon called the per diem a “hidden pay raise” on his site in January. He argued that maybe delegates do need a legitimate pay raise — they […]

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