The “Culture of Rape” Demands Moral Reform

This politicized mindset is a big part of the problem. Sexual assault is a spectrum of behaviors, not a binary proposition.
This politicized mindset is a big part of the problem. Sexual assault is a spectrum of behaviors, not a binary proposition.

by James A. Bacon

Over the past few days I have advanced the argument that there is a very real problem with sexual relations on college campuses, and in particular the University of Virginia, but I take issue with the characterization of the problem as an “epidemic of rape.” The root problem is a drunken college hookup culture.

As the close relative of a woman who experienced rape at gunpoint by a man who broke into her apartment, I see a world of difference between what happened to her and an incident in which, say, a man and woman get wasted, they have sex, and she decides the next day that she was too drunk to have given her consent. To anyone who has lived in terror through a violent rape at the hands of a stranger, not knowing if the man will decide to kill her afterwards, the campus anti-rape movement that conflates the two is both ignorant and morally repugnant.

That said, it is obvious that there is a very real problem of real and/or perceived sexual assault on college campuses in America today. Thousands of young women across America are feeling sexually maltreated and abused; some of them have been subjected to emotional or physical coercion of a less traumatic sort than rape at gunpoint. It is a national problem, and something needs to be done. But what?

One cannot address a problem unless one understands the true nature of the problem. That’s why I have spent so much time dissecting and demolishing the “culture of rape” meme that dominates public discourse today. Today I will discuss some preliminary thoughts on what needs to be done. Before I discuss my thoughts, however, I need to clear the underbrush of some seemingly plausible but ultimately flawed ideas that have been circulating recently.

First is the beguiling idea that college administrations should be compelled to report all alleged sexual assaults to law enforcement authorities. While most would agree that cases like the alleged gang rape at UVa’s Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house should be reported to authorities, that now-discredited story was dissimilar from the vast majority of sexual assault complaints that occur on campus. The truth is, as Nicole Eramo, UVa’s associate dean of students, has made clear, most young woman have reasons for not wanting to go through a criminal or administrative process. For many women, the alleged offense does not rise to the level sufficient to justify evicting the alleged perpetrator from campus much less sending him to jail. Few college victims possess the intensity of moral clarity that propelled my family member into pressing criminal charges. Women should be allowed to choose based upon the facts of their own experience, not have the decision forced upon them by legislators outraged by the horror of a now-discredited story.

A second beguiling but misguided idea is that we should drop the legal drinking age from 21 to 18 on the theory that banning the sale of alcohol pushes the drunken party hook-up scene into fraternity houses. The logic is that there is something especially pernicious about fraternities — a particularly misogynistic environment, perhaps, where alcohol is readily available in large quantities — and that reversing the ban on alcohol sales will take the partying out of the fraternity houses to locales less prone to binge drinking and misogyny. The evidence that I’ve seen does not back this up.

contextual_factors
According to the 2007 College Sexual Assault Study (CSA study), only a small percentage of sexual assaults occurred in fraternity houses, as seen in the data above. While the party scene at the University of Virginia may be concentrated in fraternity houses, students don’t need fraternities to party. Even then, parties were the context for barely more than half of the sexual-assault episodes identified by the CSA study. Bottom line: Sexual assaults are strongly associated with excessive drinking, but there is little evidence that the problem is tied to excessive drinking at fraternity houses. Some may argue that lowering the drinking age and making alcohol more readily available to college students will result in less drinking. I’m open to hearing the arguments but I’m dubious. I  suspect there may be other ways to tackle the problems associated with excessive drinking.

Any campaign against drunken college hook-up sex should have three dimensions: (1) cracking down on binge drinking, whatever the locale (2) holding men more accountable for boorish and/or violent behavior, and (3) urging women to stop putting themselves in situations likely to produce bad outcomes.

The first is to attack the binge drinking problem. Binge drinking leads to bad sex by breaking down inhibitions, causing bad judgment and clouding memories of who said and did what. (By bad sex, I mean sex that women don’t want to participate in but are either pressured into by peer expectations, psychological bullying or physical coercion, or sex that they regret in retrospect.) Eliminate the binge drinking, and you eliminate much sexual assault and regret sex.

How do we do this? Frankly, I don’t know. But college administrations need to make it a priority. Colleges should proceed through trial and error, sharing stories of successes and failures. They should cooperate where possible with Greek organizations, while recognizing that fraternities and sororities are only part of the problem and that other venues will emerge for binge drinking that are beyond the control of university administrators. We need to affect a values revolution as a society, encompassing not only students but colleges, parents, Greek organizations, Hollywood, bars and nightclubs, local law enforcement and everyone else. We must persuade young people that getting wasted, puking, peeing in the alleyway, falling off balconies, engaging in meaningless sex and all the rest irresponsible and contemptible behavior.

Next we need to change the way young men think about sex. College-age men are, by their nature, obsessed with sex pretty much 24/7. It’s in their genetic wiring, and their natural proclivities are reinforced today by ubiquitous pornography that depicts women as eagerly catering to male sexual fantasies. As long as men treat women as objects for their sexual gratification, and women let them, there will be a lot of unhappy women. This “culture change” needs to be reinforced at every level of society. Men need to respect the feelings and sensibilities of women. Men who subject women to any form of coercion to obtain sex should be shamed and shunned, even criminally prosecuted when appropriate. In the age of social media, it should be easy for women to “out” men with the most abusive and boorish behavior. However it’s done, we need to hold men accountable for abominable behavior, even when it doesn’t rise to the level of criminality.

Finally, we need to change the way young women think about sex. Ultimately, they hold the key. Women have undermined themselves through their own behavior. Too many have fallen prey to the idea that women should be as assertive sexually as men and that they should treat sex as casually as the most misogynistic of men. But most women seek more from sexual encounters than the almighty orgasm – they want loving sex in a committed emotional relationship. If they provide sex for “free” – rather than in exchange for some level of emotional commitment – most will find the experience unsatisfying if not humiliating. Indeed, some may find it cause for remorse and depression. College-age women have relinquished the greatest power they have over men. They need to take it back. They need to dispense with the idea that sexual promiscuity is “liberating” for a women, and they need to drive a harder bargain in their relationships with men.

Few of the ideas we hear from the anti-rape movement — criminalizing boorish male behavior, undermining the presumption of innocence, subjecting students to legalistic formula for granting consent — will make campus life safer or more rewarding for women. At its core, the campus “epidemic of rape” is a moral crisis and it can be solved only through a moral reformation. Government can’t do this. College administrations can lend only a supporting role. Change must come from all of us speaking out in thousands of forums just like this one.


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119 responses to “The “Culture of Rape” Demands Moral Reform”

  1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Not a bad analysis but who are you to say how women should regard sex?

    1. Implicit in your question is the idea that perhaps men should have no business telling women how to approach sex. As a father talking to your daughters, do you believe that? I don’t believe that I can force my opinions upon my daughters but do I have every right and duty as a parent to tell them how I feel and to help them approach the topic responsibly.

  2. I have strong disagreement with Jim on this but I am going to withhold the specifics so that others can have time to weigh in and comment.

  3. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Jim –

    You are off target here.

    The primary reason for binge drinking among women is the Hook-up culture. The great majority of them need alcohol to engage in the mindless soul-destroying sex events that the Hook-Up culture pressures them into performing.

    Without the hook-up culture, the need for young women to heavily drink would largely disappear. This is also now true for a substantial number of college males. Conversely, should alcohol be eliminated from the college scene, hook-up sex among college students would be eliminated to a very substantial degree.

    Your take on males is also largely based on myth.

    Yes, there are a relatively small percentage of males who specialize in using the hook-up culture to pressure as many women as they can into sex, or otherwise to entertain women who love the game as much as they do. But most all women in this latter group are soon labeled as sluts. They are then ignored and discarded by this small number of male specialists who then move on to target younger more naive women, most particularly 1st and 2nd year women.

    But unlike these relatively few sexual cads, a majority of college males and females dislike the hook-up culture. This is particularly after their 1st year in college when they discover it to be a dead end street, one full of pain, self-loathing, nihilism, soul destruction and oafish selfish behavior that abuses others to gratify oneself.

    Unfortunately, however, the hook-up now is so pervasive on some campuses (including at UVA) that women find building a social life difficult (even impossible) without it. So they join or continue the game in the hopes of building a relationship with man. Rarely does this work. Mostly their quest ends in failure, emotional trauma and psychological sexual abuse.

    Typically the woman’s quest for relationship ends in two ways. Unless they play the game just right, they are labeled sluts by men and women alike. One bad move can often destroy their reputation. But even if they play the game right, few women can ever achieve a meaningful intimate relation with a man because the Hook-Culture thwarts it. It’s too easy for men to get sex the easy way, meaning a guy just has to condition the woman’s sex on her agreement not to ask him for a meaningful relationship. If the hook up culture is prevalent, like a UVA, this tactic works most of the time, given the availability of women who agree to sex for nothing in return.

    On the other hand, the majority of men who also don’t like the hook-up game play it to keep up the appearances of being a stud, or at least to retain male status among their cohorts. The more scalps on the belt the more status the guy gains among his male cohorts and among women too.

    For Women, however, its the reverse. Sleep around a lot among your tribe and you are labeled a slut (according to both men and women). Play the game right (being selective, keeping hook up partners apart, and never hooking up within the same crowd, and never try to pressure him into a meaningful relationship) and the women in the vast majority of cases ends up as somebody’s sex toy, a tool that her more carefully selected guy jacks off on, before she’s put on the shelf to be used all over again when he’s horny again, and fits you in between all his other hook-ups. I dislike stating this so brutally but the hook-up culture is a brutal woman destroying system, for a very significant number of women in any case.

    And while its particularly soul destroying for women, it creates a relatively small bunch of very callous men. These emotion predators game the system to prey on as many women as the can. They ruined these women by either turning them into “sluts” in the eyes of their friends or their own favored sex toys so long as they behave, do what they told, and never ask their master (the guy) for a meaningful relationship, or otherwise act like you want one or think you have one. Do that and you are dumped just as quick as the sluts were dumped.

    This is the way the Hook-Up game plays out for most college students caught up in it. And this pent up anger, shame and abuse is fueling the hysteria at UVA today.

    But the real culprits are not the male or female college students. It’s the adult cabal, including far too many faculty, that pushes the hook-up culture on college age kids. College administrators and boards of colleges are also culprits. Their failure to stand up to that cabal, and stop the hook culture in its tracks, is a scandal that borders on criminal. I predict a flood of lawsuits. Perhaps it’s the only solution.

    See also my related comments found at: dev.baconsrebellion.com/2014/12/how-ideology-shapes-our-understanding-of-sexual-assault

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      PS –

      I might add that even among those college guys who are not sex hook-specialists, they far too often learn in college some very bad habits.

      For example, they learn to to take women and their needs for granted. Far too often these bad habits continue well into their adult life and long after the hook-up culture has faded into today’s adult dating scene that is a pale shadow of its former self before the Hook-up culture replaced it on college campuses.

    2. I’m not sure that we disagree very much. You attribute women’s binge drinking to the need to overcome their qualms and inhibitions to participate in the hook-up culture. I don’t disagree (although I’d like to see more formal research done on the connection). The question is, how do we get women to change their self-destructive behavior? Doesn’t it stand to reason that, if we as a society attack binge drinking, and if women do less binge drinking, they will be less likely to participate in the hook-up scene?

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Yes, I agree, to a point.

        According to my listening to Dean Eramo’s interview, most sexual misconduct claims or sit downs at UVA were initiated by women who had far too much to drink before the event. Most knew it, regretted it, and simply wanted some kind of closure on an embarrassing event. That is regret sex, not a case of rape.

        Their need for closure had nothing to do with a formal proceeding, trial, or any finding that they had been raped. They wanted respect restored to them, an apology or understanding of what happened to help them get past the event so they could go on with their life. A system that forces on these women a different conclusion is very unfair and only causes more harm to all those involved.

        But now the Fed appears to be working hard to expand the definition of assault and sexual misconduct irrespective of the so called “survivor”. And to do it the government is trying to leave the victim out the process altogether, telling her its Okay to check off a box alleging an improper sexual event with impunity. This appears to be an effort to gin up the rationale for expanding an unfair and unworkable rule under Title 10. A cynic might suspect that certain politicians and regulators in DC and allied interest groups are trying to conjure out of thin air a War on Women.

        So drinking is big problem here. But as I will try to explain later it grows directly out of the hook-up Culture. It’s a symptom of having hooked up. And drinking can fuel hooking up at many venues, and so then the residual underlying problem remains.

        We need to eliminate the hook up culture as best we can and meanwhile teach students how to drink responsibly and treat all their fellow students, men and women alike, with dignity and respect. Otherwise the problems between genders only gets far worse and spreads far beyond the campus both geographically and time wise post college. Unfortunately, I suspect that some people now want gender wars. And want those gender wars as vehicles to aggregate political power.

  4. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Talking about the “Hook Up Culture” is getting old. I am not sure how prevalent it is, really. I have one daughter in college and the other finished with it. Neither one got into the “Hook Up Culture” or binge drinking. Sure they might drink but not to the quantities being described here.

    Back in the rarely 70s, when I was in college, kids used to toke up a lot and some dropped acid. The latter proved dangerous. I lost one friend who was tripping and jumped off a dorm thinking he was a bird. But cases like his were very rare.

    Also, I am starting to get annoyed with the moralistic preaching about alcohol and”Hook Up Culture.” I think I have ehard enough.

    Let;s move on.

    1. “Talking about the hook up culture is old.” Really? Then talking about sexual assault on campus must be old as well…. but people keep on talking about it, and marching, and protesting.

      I’m glad to hear that your daughters did not engage in the kind of self-destructive behavior that we’re describing here. I don’t think my daughters did either (although they probably don’t tell me about activities that they’re sure I would disapprove of). But the College Sexual Assault study, while it may exaggerate the extent of the problem, indicates that heavy drinking is, in fact, very widespread on campus. We’re not making that up.

      One more point: You get tired of “moralistic preaching.” Well, there are two broad alternatives for dealing with the problem. People can regulate themselves by changing their value structures and altering their behavior voluntarily, or government/institutional authority can step in and alter their behavior involuntarily. As a statist by inclination, you’re probably more comfortable with top-down solutions imposed by governments and universities, aren’t you? God forbid that we’d exercise value judgments — except through the mediation of the state!

    2. I’ve got to agree with Peter here. Hook up culture? What does that even mean? What is the statistical definition of an environment displaying characteristics of a hook up culture? How many different women a year does a guy sleep with to become a casualty of the so-called hook up culture? Two, ten, twenty five? Do men and women have the same standard for entering into the hook up culture?

      I’d like to see some statistics documenting that the number of sexual partners an underclass student has is skyrocketing. I’d also like to see a dramatic fall off in that statistic among the post-college crowd packing the bars on M Street in Georgetown on any given Saturday night.

      Beyond that – so what? If adults want to engage in casual sex why is that soul destroying?

      Booze is the problem. The odds of engaging in regrettable sex without booze are a fraction of the odds of doing so with booze. That’s why people go to bars instead of libraries looking for one night stands. Sometimes the regrettable sex meets the definition of rape, sometimes not. I think booze escalates the odds of both definitions of regrettable sex.

      Virtually none of the vulnerable first year women are legally allowed to drink. Start locking up the people who serve underaged students. Start breathalyzing under age students at parties. If you’re underage and drunk you get to spend a night in jail.

      1. kvdavis Avatar

        I just don’t think prosecuting college-age drinking, more than it already is, is going to be productive.

        …but I can add to my list above of Words to Live By:

        When your judgment is impaired, your judgment is impaired. Repeat until it is ingrained into your very heart, mind and soul.

        1. I’m not so sure. In my opinion it’s the massive open house parties that cause a lot of the problems. Underaged students who might find it hard to get served booze in a bar find no problems in these house parties.

          You should need a license to host a party with over 20 people within a few miles of a college campus. You should have to submit a guest list at least two days before the party. Police should come visit the party.

          You point about judgement being impaired is very true. And what impairs your judgement? The booze. And when somebody’s judgement is impaired what good will all the training and counseling do?

          What’s in a kamikaze anyway?

          1. kvdavis Avatar

            “You should need a license to host a party with over 20 people within a few miles of a college campus. You should have to submit a guest list at least two days before the party. Police should come visit the party.”

            Read the Atlantic article. All the way thru, or start about the 11th page.

            …and I’ve had the courage to weigh in here on a very delicate issue and if you guys get icky I’m outta here.

        2. virginiagal2 Avatar
          virginiagal2

          Personally, I actually do think that actually enforcing the laws on college-age drinking would be quite effective in reducing college age drinking.

          In real life, you do not get a pass on giving wild obnoxious parties with underage drinkers. In real life, you do not get a pass on staggering around stand-up-fall-down drunk.

          It’s not a matter of new laws. It’s a matter of actually enforcing the existing ones. To some degree, turning a blind eye on excessive public drinking really is being an enabler.

          1. well, I was kind of hoping that virginiagal2 was still tracking this thread – and if you are so inclined if you could share some of your perspectives…

            on the liquor – you can succeed in pushing it off campus – no question.

            then it will be up to the locality to deal with it – and living in the town that has Mary Washington University -I can say there are clear tensions between the town folks and the neighborhood houses that have been rented by college students – that, have, at times, operated as de-facto frat houses in terms of perceived behaviors.

            Noise and drunken behavior result in calls to the police who show up and do various kinds of “policing” techniques that can range from asking for quieter less obnoxious behavior to hauling some to the jail to serious charges. In general, the town folks are fine with college kids in rentals but intolerant of Animal Houses.

            I guess I’m not sure exactly what power Colleges have over students who live off campus…

            all this talk about teaching morals… is unrealistic. Folks have different moral standards … and what’s okay with one parent or kid is not okay with another and if you really want your kid going to a schools with stricter morals – those are options… right now but if you send your kid to a 10-20 thousand student college – there are going to be diverse ideas about morals and the bright line is the law and …

            well.. it’s a curious thing… if a woman was “groped” at a bar or similar how does she view filing charging or not as “ruining the perpetrator’s life” in a bar venue vs a college venue or far that matter on a military base?

            it just sounds like – we’ve decided that college is a “special circumstance” and should not be subject to the same behavior and legal standards as non-college venues.

            so…

            1. – is that true
            2 – if so.. how is it justified?

    3. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      I’m less interested in the moral issue, as I don’t have quite the same take on it – probably because I’m a woman – but I do think that binge drinking has become a significant problem.

      Excessive drinking does exacerbate issues around sexual assault, but it causes a host of other problems, including serious accidents (up to and including walking in front of cars) and is a factor in non-sexual violence as well. That includes incidents I can remember over the years at UVA, with the caveat that many I remember are not recent.

      Also, too many students over the years have wound up as near-alcoholics or even alcoholics.

      It’s actually a problem and this is a good time to address it.

      Probably because I’m a woman, I think women can figure out when they do and don’t want to have sex pretty well on their own. But no one makes good decisions about anything when staggeringly drunk. This isn’t just in the context of sexual assault – a lot of the problems excessive drinking causes are not about sex, but they are lifelong and damaging.

  5. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Please note my earlier comment, namely that “… the real culprits are not the male or female college students. It’s the adult cabal, including far too many faculty, that pushes the hook-up culture on college age kids. College administrators and boards of colleges are also culprits. Their failure to stand up to that cabal, and stop the hook culture in its tracks, is a scandal that borders on criminal. I predict a flood of lawsuits. Perhaps it’s the only solution.”

    Here we are talking about the environment that all young, often naïve and vulnerable, 1st year students encounter immediately upon stepping foot on UVA’s Grounds to begin their four year undergraduate school education at the University.

    Called the Hook-Up Culture, this environment by all accounts is a very coercive, given the naiveté and vulnerability of 1st year students.

    It’s agenda grounded largely in ideology is typically pushed by adults in authority at UVA. This includes numerous members of the faculty and an array on other “interest groups” on and off campus, including those at other prestige’s universities that UVA President Sullivan and her administration openly wish to emulate. We are talking here of Yale, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard, among others. For a flavor of this pernicious influence please consult the book Sex and God at Yale: Porn, Political Correctness, and a Good Education Gone Bad by Nathen Harden, published by Macmillan.

    Is this the sort of culture we want our young UVA students to pass through?

    Also is UVA now promoting the idea that all student sex is free, without cost or risk, if only students learn how “to do it” using safe technology, a notion that science, history, and culture have proved to false over and over again.

    These questions need to be looked at seriously and addressed in the context the current crisis UVA now finds itself in.

    Secondly, there’s the question of the steps UVA current leaders have taken in the past to protect and defend its students against Hook-Up Culture threats. What have they done concurrently to defend the rights of all students at UVA. An excellent exposition on this subject is found at:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38297175/A%20Letter%20to%20the%20Board%20of%20Visitors%20from%20Cheri%20A.%20Lewis%20112514.pdf

    Titled “A letter to Board of Visitors of UVa: Leadership, Not Management is the Only Vessel Out of this Crisis,” it is quite revealing and it is very informative, while it also makes a powerful case for change.

    This document was first referred to here in a comment posted under Jim Bacon’s earlier article just below, namely: How Ideology Shapes our Understanding of Sexual Assault.

  6. kvdavis Avatar

    James, Larry, Reed, Peter…..I created a login just to write back on this.

    May I ask you to share your posts with 1-3 of the most important women in your lives and get their perspective? And *listen* to their responses? Then I’d like to hear back from you.

    A few points from a woman’s perspective (and no false equivalencies here – women and men are different):

    I’ve been sexually assaulted (from rape to groping) by about 5 men, from strangers to relatives to adult neighbors when I was a young adolescent (tho never on campus). This is fairly common.

    If one defines sexual assault – as we should – as unwanted sexual contact, I bet you’ll find similar rates among your own near and dear. (Try pushing another guy’s shoulder and see if you get arrested for assault – you could.) We must allow people to own their own bodies.

    Your comments do not acknowledge the physical dominance almost all men have compared to almost all women, and the power dominance in many other relationships. Add this to the acknowledged male sex drive, and come to a logical conclusion about likely frequency of incidents.

    Please believe, the proportion of people who are standing up against “rape culture” (I know, I had a hard time with that term too), who are really hoping for protection for “regret sex”, is vanishingly small.

    It is indeed a modern notion that a severely intoxicated woman is *incapable of consent*, just as is a child or someone mentally disabled. But we would all be better off to embrace this concept, for sexual assault prevention and awareness. (Then there would be less need for prosecution debates.)

    James, of course we should all teach our daughters, and our sons, our family and human values, including respect for our own and others’ bodies and the gift of sexual love. The hook-up culture is indeed abhorrent; and it is not ‘blaming the victim’ to tell our girls to stay safe.

    But with all the news in the last few years about Bill Cosby, Paterno, our own Joe Morrisey–with revelations beginning with Anita Hill–etc. etc. etc.–surely you can not believe that this rising chorus of voices is as trumped up as the details of the RS story.

    There are difficult nuances that – esp. as parents! – it is uncomfortable to talk about. What about what we used to call a make-out session, where the girl wants to stop before the guy does? What if she wants to wait for a few more dates? Do you really think it is more common for the woman to falsely cry rape than it is for her to suffer more sexual contact than she said OK to? [Hint: no.]

    I am using a name here that can be identified in Virginia. It takes courage to stand up in this forum, and I am taking that risk because I believe James Bacon to be a respectable human being, and assume you commenters are as well.

    A false accusation is, in my estimation, absolutely as bad as an assault. We should guard against the pendulum swinging back to an assumption of guilt. Undue focus on fraternities, while making great press among the chattering class (most of whom, as do I, probably have kids at well-known colleges), is a distraction.

    But one of the amazing, profoundly good things about the age of the Internet is, our stories can be heard, echoed, and verified. Women are speaking out about this, which we have been suffering from for millennia, and being heard in a way never before.

    Please, listen.

    1. thank you KVDAVIS – for sharing your views.

      I often discuss issues like this with other important women in my life .. I tend to do this with the opposite gender because I will never be a woman I would never presume to understand what’s it’s like to be one – and in matters of a woman’s view – I will accept their view even if I cannot understand it and especially so on issues on this…..

      with this particular issue – I did discuss it with two other women especially to get their view of the “hookup culture” and ” self-destructive behavior” .. and what I can say – is that their view differs from the men folk in BR… which was/is no great surprise to me.. to be honest… and as I said at the top- when a woman tells me something about how women feel about something – I tend to believe it … because, again, I will never be a woman.

      so I “think” I’m reading your advice – loud and clear here.

      and I’d actually want to hear more from you on this subject if you are so inclined.

    2. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      This is a tangent – but to me important – I don’t think (may be surprised) that anyone disagrees that a person that is drunk enough can be legally incapacitated to give consent.

      However, being drunk is not equivalent to being incapacitated. Legally, you can be too drunk to drive and not too drunk to give consent to sex.

      That is, actually, in many ways okay. As a point of law, you don’t want to make normal New Year’s Eve dates into rape. (I’m not suggesting you are advocating this, I’m trying to give an example of where this would matter and not be creepy.)

      I have been quite surprised in these discussions at the number of people who believe that by law, sex while intoxicated is automatically rape. That is not correct. The definition of incapacitated, best I can tell, is pretty darn incapacitated.

      My other point – it is also a good reason to exercise some caution as to when and where you get drunk to the point of affecting your judgement – and I apply this to both men and women. There are a number of quite stupid things one can do when intoxicated, many of them having nothing to do with sex, that can have long-lasting unpleasant effects.

  7. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Thanks KVDavis – the more perspectives the better.

    And yes, contrary to much currently popular opinion, women and men are very different. Thanks God for that and much else. This includes the reality that many women understand men far better than men understand themselves; and that some men, even the most misogynist of men, are capable of understanding women better than many women do, and expressing them in unforgettable, if controversial ways.

    It’s a complicated paradoxical often inscrutable world we inhabit.

    Anna Karenina, one of the world’s most powerful portraits of a woman, was created out of the mind, imagination, emotion of Leon Tolstoy, an abuser of his faithful wife, his muse who devoted her life to building and preserving his literary craft.

    Jim Harrison created Dalva, the unforgettable part Sioux woman, child of the Nebraska prairie and a missionary father, mother of an illegitimate son, the fruit of her teenage love for a half-breed Sioux man who was also her half-brother, and Harrison tells the story of the life Dalva leads helping abused women in California while struggling with an alcoholic, debauched History Professor madly trying to sort out her history, before she returns to the high plains of her birth to untangle her past from its roots.

    Then there’s Pablo Picasso, creator of the modern woman in paint and stone, king of the modern misogynists, with behaviors harking back to medieval Arabia, Picasso the lover / abuser of the them all, the very sources and muses of his art.

    And Matisse, perhaps the greatest painter of the 20th century, his wife and daughter relationships were equally taut, tangled, powerful, and ironic, all drivers of his art too, the center of his life.

    Then there is Hemingway, said to have written great early 20th century love stories, a man who it has been said “had not a clue about women”, according to one of those very special women who should know, Martha Gellhorn.

    Then of course there is Molly Bloom and her “Soliloquy … it goes on an on and on …

    A far more modest example, the general composite characterizations above concerning how a significant number of young women feel about the Hook Up culture (in contrast to many other women) come from the spoken histories of those students, as written down and interpreted by other women who have labored to help them and understand what’s happening. For details see three books of subject, all written by women:

    Hooking Up, sex, dating, and relationships on campus by Kathleen A. Bogle

    Unprotected by Miriam Grossman

    The End of Sex: How Hookup Culture is Leaving a Generation Unhappy, Sexually Unfulfilled, and Confused About Intimacy, by Donna Freitas

    Perhaps the central message here is that politicians and regulators in Washington DC and college administrators in Charlottesville are not going to iron all of this out, only make it worse if they continue on their current path.

  8. kvdavis Avatar

    Yes, I’d be happy to engage in civil discourse on this monitored board of (mostly, I imagine) Virginians – especially as it was we who were in the national news on this topic as a result of extremely bad journalistic decisions by the Rolling Stone.

    I’ll wait a bit for more response, and then reply to what I think are the most important points.

    1. KV – don’t wait! dive right in. We sorely need perspectives from women on this issue… in particular though I would love to see more women in general on this board… sharing their views – on the full gamut!

      so please.. fire up your keyboard!

  9. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Or, of course, you can come at this from all kinds of other angles, they are endless, try for example, Henry Jame’s Portrait of a Lady.

    Or try Proust or Roth for males.

    Or come at it from from the view of Simone de Beauvoir, who wrote a seminal work on women – the Second Sex- and has been said to have lived an intimate life with her man that was totally opposite from her written work, a book I much admire.

  10. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    kvdavis –

    I’m sure your specific comments play a very real in the lives of many women today. Thank you for sharing those comments. Hope we hear more.

    Perhaps one the main drivers here is the progressive coarsening American culture over the past 60 years or so. The rules of civility regulating how we conduct our daily lives among each other have broken down. It’s happening at an accelerating pace You see it everywhere. On TV, at the movies, on highways, at many homes, or what’s left of homes in America now.

    Of course, the benefits of the Internet are enormous, offering big benefits. But like most everything else there is a dark side equal to the upside.

    The Internet and internet communication creates a virtual world where vulgar uninformed conduct and comment often pay no apparent price or adverse consequence. So this puts this trend toward vulgar behavior and mass ignorance into overdrive, spilling out into our living spaces, public and private. And as our youth spend ever more time in the virtual world, and grow up doing it, this builds the boorish, thoughtless and crude behavior ever deeper into our daily habits everywhere. So everything can be attacked and ridiculed or asserted with impunity, and at long distance.

    And it’s all so easy, just a click away, done with impunity, never having to face your target, or live with them down the street. Simply put everyone everywhere now far too often is insulting each others, their institutions, or their beliefs simply because they can get away with it without apparent consequences, or challenge within a framework that lacks civility.

    On TV – men are depicted as fools, stupid or racists, women as sluts, marriage as a tool to enslave, motherhood as for the lazy, all culture is under attack, even at those places that are charged with preserving and enhancing culture, our colleges and universities. Ideas there become ideology. Individual people become dispensable, and irrelevant, as they disappear into groups endlessly stereotyped, and demeaned per someone’s ideology.

    Hence we get the Rolling Stone Story. Hence we get the knee jerk vandalism of a fraternity house organized by UVA professors. Hence too we get the Hook-Up culture that for many women it tantamount to the forced wearing of a Burka but worse.

    Under this culture or a virulent strain of it, human worth is stripped from young women, save for the use of their bodies as a sex tool so long as they don’t seek anything meaningful or worthwhile in return, particularly any expression of their spirit as fellow humans souls on this planet. It’s hard to imagine a cultural practice more damaging to civil behavior, and the proper treatment of women (or anyone for that matter) than the hook-up culture.

    But not only do our colleges condone this, many push it on their students and celebrate it then release their graduates out into society to poison our society as well. No wonder so many women get so little respect. No wonder men have little respect for others, including themselves. No wonder you have the concerns you do.

    This also leaves a nation of incompetence and cowards, whole populations unable to deal face to face with real people walking around and meeting in the real world.

    This became clear up at Boston College where they tried to introduce dating. Up there no one had the courage, confidence, and social skill to ask for a date. They feared rejection. Afraid to ask for a date, college students could more easily hook-up with a near stranger and give oral sex so long as they were part of the crowd and got drunk enough. But how do you think they feel the next morning. What’s the girl learn? And how about the boy?

    I wrote earlier about my experience in the fraternity scene at UVA in the mid 1960’s. It can be found on this website at:

    dev.baconsrebellion.com/2014/12/sex-genes-love-and-rape.html#comments

    We’ll never return to that earlier time, not in its details. But we can find ways to rebuild differently time tested civilities and values, and leave out much of the rest. In any event, I suspect everyone will be a lot better off as we can find ways to rebuild something worthwhile on the ruins of what we’ve got now.

    1. kvdavis Avatar

      I’ve been noodling on a( long) response off and on, hoping to influence this group of intelligent Virginian men.

      Men are still largely the power structure at UVA, the media, etc., and if they don’t understand the problem, it will be harder to change.

      Will post in a bit, but briefly – James, you continue to deny women agency (they don’t *feel* like sex tools!).

      I completely agree with the problem of the coarse culture to which you refer, but it’s mostly ON MEN to make most of the changes.

      As my college age daughter, active in Sexual Assault Prvention and Awareness at a major university just told me, “crop tops don’t cause rape; rapists cause rape.”

      1. I keep thinking – how to compare and contrast this to the sexual mores in the military.

        I mean .. it’s the same players – guys and gals.. and an institutional structure …. but I’ve never heard it described as a drunken “hook-up” or “rape” … “culture” …. and yes…. guys and gals of college age do join the military and last I heard -they do have a problem also.

          1. well.. I stand corrected.. further searching finds this:

            The Military’s Rape Problem Is a Lot Like Everyone’s Rape Problem

            http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/05/military-rape-problem/64976/

      2. virginiagal2 Avatar
        virginiagal2

        I don’t, personally, agree that men are still largely the power structure, and I don’t, personally, agree that it’s mostly on men to make most of the changes. Women have a whole lot more power than you’re giving them credit for.

        Maybe I have more successful, powerful women in my life than most, but when I read things like that, or things about the patriarchy, I tend to find it extremely unconvincing.

        I do agree that crop tops don’t cause rape. Neither does getting drunk.

        But I also make a distinction between being a boorish jerk and being a serial predator. The causes and the cures for the two are different – and that difference is getting lost in talk about patriarchy. Doesn’t mean both shouldn’t be addressed, they both should but they ARE NOT THE SAME THING and they do not have the same roots or cures.

  11. kvdavis Avatar

    Ok, James will tell you I’m very fussy about punctuation etc., and I have no idea how much of this formatting will come thru on the blog – I’m working in Word. I have tried to put quotes around blog/comment quotes, and then add my comments without quotes.

    Also, you don’t know me – please take my tone as respectful, sometimes humorous, and spirited; not “strident”, “abrasive”, “humorless”, or any other of those supposed feminist tropes.

    I mentioned earlier I was a survivor of numerous types of assaults; may I also disclose my daughter is active in her university’s Sexual Assault Prevention and Awareness (SAPAC) – emphasis on, Prevention and Awareness, not just on survivor assistance and prosecution after the fact. She has educated me on a lot of this.

    Now – My major concern about this board is the almost total focus on women having to change their behavior.

    If we don’t understand the problem, we can’t address making it better. (And it is my hope that, it is because it is such a minority of men who assault, that that accounts for the lack of understanding.)

    References to women’s “self-destructive behavior” with much (I would say, titillating) detail on the “drunken, hook-up culture” is an easy re-direct from placing responsibility for assault on those doing the assaulting.

    There is only a glancing note in James’ first blog on “(2) holding men more accountable for boorish and/or violent behavior,” and then his paragraph on “[n]ext we need to change the way young men think about sex” then the discussion of “a relatively small bunch of very callous men” before going back to focus on what WOMEN need to do: “The question is, how do we get women to change their self-destructive behavior? Doesn’t it stand to reason that, if we as a society attack binge drinking, and if women do less binge drinking, they will be less likely to participate in the hook-up scene?”

    Somehow in all the follow-up, no one said ‘Wow, when I taught our sons about the birds and the bees, I probably should have emphasized that these boys MUST respect women’s physical integrity, will, and agency. It’s not too late! And maybe we should talk about this modern notion that excessively intoxicated women are INCAPABLE of consent, just like children and the mentally disabled.’ (As a special favor to me, please do not raise with your sons the specter of regret-accusations as a major motivator here. This just promotes misogyny and is not borne out by the evidence.)

    Some more points:

    • This discussion is only about current, US, college, date-rape. Hence your focus on the mutual participants’ ‘responsibility’. But know that for the many survivors of rape, your focus on the women’s responsibility is offensive.

    • Let’s not parse differences between sexual assault and rape. We all know basic human anatomy and the various options. Unwanted sexual contact is assault. I’ll allow that it needs to be somewhat forceful – thankfully, thanks to police departments’ experience, most states no longer require the woman to suffer physical injury to prove she resisted. (Yes, some of the consent protocols for 1st, 2nd and 3rd base are risible, but the basic idea of clear verbal or non-verbal consent is a wise one.)

    • While I’m going to assume this board is not referencing actions on young people under the age of consent, holding those girls responsible, the reference to taking advantage of 1st-year students—disproportionately–deserves further consideration. Girls at that age and size will not handle liquor well, and are easily intimated physically, psychologically, and emotionally. See: ‘excessively intoxicated women are INCAPABLE of consent, just like children and the mentally disabled.’

    • As said in my prior post, false accusations are every bit as bad as assault, and should be treated as such. Recent data shows these are less than 1%, so emphasis should be placed on real problems and not engage in false equivalencies.

    • The drunken hook-up culture is undeniably and emphatically bad, for both men and women (boys and girls). Parents, society, and schools should discourage it for many reasons. (I understand that thankfully it is diminishing.)

    Regarding the adult structure (“cabal”) pushing the hook-up culture – I think this is nonsense. From my understanding, colleges offer extensive safety and health discussion at Orientation and Welcome Week which includes non-judgmental discussion of safe sex and that this is an age for experimentation. They may go overboard sometimes ($1 condoms in the dorms!) compared to the values with which you have tried to raise your children. But better than STDs or unwanted pregnancy.

    Regarding Sex and God at Yale – read the negative reviews on Amazon to understand it better (I remember when it came out) – sort by rating 1’s. The author refers to one year at Yale when administration lost control of the vetting and it did get pretty wild.

    http://www.amazon.com/Sex-God-Yale-Political-Correctness/product-reviews/B00D06TEH6/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

    While there are party schools and bad behavior, kids are very focused on survival in a bad economy these days. Anecdote is not data.

    • Regarding “To anyone who has lived in terror through a violent rape at the hands of a stranger, not knowing if the man will decide to kill her afterwards, the campus anti-rape movement that conflates the two is both ignorant and morally repugnant.”

    Having experienced both myself, I can speak without ignorance. I can assure you that such devastating, profound betrayal by someone you trusted – and the resulting complications in your social, family, or neighborhood network, which required secrecy and shame – is much more horrible. It is morally repugnant to suggest sexual assault by a friend or relative is somehow less traumatic than that by a stranger, weapon or no.

    Comments which are condescending or clueless:

    • “That said, it is obvious that there is a very real problem of real and/or perceived sexual assault on college campuses in America today.”

    • “I did discuss it with two other women especially to get their view of the “hookup culture” and ” self-destructive behavior.”

    So, you edited the conversation down to put the onus on women? And that didn’t go so well?!

    Options for making things better:

    • Regarding “[C]ollege administrations should be compelled to report all alleged sexual assaults to law enforcement authorities.”

    This is only one of many fixes being considered. The point of Title IX is, as the recipient of federal funds, the college bears responsibility for ensuring a safe environment for its women, differently than the threshold for community policing. That’s why they are considering policies.

    • Regarding “drop the legal drinking age from 21 to 18 on the theory that banning the sale of alcohol pushes the drunken party hook-up scene into fraternity houses”, and “[t]he logic is that there is something especially pernicious about fraternities — a particularly misogynistic environment, perhaps, where alcohol is readily available in large quantities — and that reversing the ban on alcohol sales will take the partying out of the fraternity houses to locales less prone to binge drinking and misogyny. The evidence that I’ve seen does not back this up”:

    Here you go – a very long but insightful read, mostly about insurance and liability (the nationals have written it so they have no liability); required reading for anyone with children in the Greek system:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

    • OK, now we’re veering off in to wild political and partisan speculation: “But now the Fed appears to be working hard to expand the definition of assault and sexual misconduct irrespective of the so called ‘survivor’. And to do it the government is trying to leave the victim out the process altogether, telling her it’s Okay to check off a box alleging an improper sexual event with impunity. [NO!] This appears to be an effort to gin up the rationale for expanding an unfair and unworkable rule under Title 10. A cynic might suspect that certain politicians and regulators in DC and allied interest groups are trying to conjure out of thin air a War on Women. [Oh please.] “…Unfortunately, I suspect that some people now want gender wars. And want those gender wars as vehicles to aggregate political power.” NO

    • “People can regulate themselves by changing their value structures and altering their behavior voluntarily, or government/institutional authority can step in and alter their behavior involuntarily. As a statist by inclination, you’re probably more comfortable with top-down solutions imposed by governments and universities, aren’t you? God forbid that we’d exercise value judgments — except through the mediation of the state!”

    Again, to focus on campuses and Greek institutions (see Atlantic article) – they can take measures in improving their policies. And people can also take more personal responsibility. We can have both!

    • One of the best programs in SAPAC is Bystander Action, which means people can say to people, when the girl is intoxicated, ‘hey Joe I don’t think Amy’s really up to that right now….’

    This is about 7 minutes and from New Zealand, but worth the consideration:

    Who Are You?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zr1oxEbdsw

    So, to review:

    1. Assault is the fault of the assaulter.
    2. We need to support each other in a change in culture, at the personal, family, school, community, media, and academic level, to one of mutual respect. However, this does not undermine #1.
    3. There are specific policies being considered at the institutional level, which deserve to be heard out, considered, and adopted.

    Thanks for hearing me out.

    1. Thank you for adding significantly to the conversation and please stick around to see responses… and respond..

      re: • “I did discuss it with two other women especially to get their view of the “hookup culture” and ” self-destructive behavior.”

      So, you edited the conversation down to put the onus on women? And that didn’t go so well?!

      nope. I specifically asked for their view of the issue – without any prejudice.

      for me – ” going well” in this context – is when I hear the unvarnished opinions from women – on issues that affect them – in much the same way I would be inclined to listen to the unvarnished opinions of black folks on their view of their treatment in our society.

      I’m basically on your side KV – When this narrative was put here – I was appalled.. and still am – but it also became clear that Jim’s views are sincerely held on woman but also, unfortunately, the fairly typical view of the hard right these days – who basically believe the Govt should not be involved in this as long as a liberal is POTUS and appointing feminists to leadership positions involving these issues.

      you may or may not have noticed that the new perceived “threat” the right sees – is an Administration taking a law – and turning it into regulations that the folks who wrote/passed the law – never intended.

      not only sexual assault, but race, immigration, health care, gay/lesbian, etc..

      so the Women’s “issue” has now also been drawn into this ideological vortex… and you can see it in Jim’s writing where his “solution” goes back to “teaching” morals… as preferred to the govt being involved….

      This is the contemporary Conservatism… these days… it basically believes that many of these issues are caused by the govt imposing itself in issues that it should not be.

      folks on the other side – like you, I suspect – disagree… so folks on the other side will then label you as a liberal, progressive, feminist, etc…and strenuously disagree with not only your view of sexual behaviors – but your solutions if they involve top-down govt.

      That’s why I wanted to see your voice as part of the discussion – not that I particularly agree or disagree with any or all of your points – but to demonstrate conclusively – that there are more diverse views of the UVA/RS mess.

      Finally, I know this sounds stupid to some folks but I BELIEVE the first step towards finding SOME common ground is for both sides to better understand the other’s perspective. Some positions will not find common ground and may even harden but others may find some agreement – if on nothing else – the basis of the disagreements themselves – and as you can see right now – there’s not even agreement of some of the facts.

    2. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      Just some random responses, and pretty quick –

      I disagree that there is an unfair emphasis on women changing their behavior. I know this is a personal tick, but I am so tired of hearing that and it is becoming a button push thing for me. Telling people how to stay out of vulnerable situations with strangers or near-strangers is not putting the onus on women. The fact is, we are often smaller and less physically imposing, and staying out of vulnerable situations with strangers is not a bad idea for anyone, male or female.

      Women who have been drinking are not children, and, realizing I am not a lawyer, my understanding is that incapacitated is not the same thing as being drunk. Further, some of the descriptions of young women as fragile little flowers strike me as being almost sexist in themselves. Please don’t get mad, but they really strike me as gender stereotyping and insulting.

      The rate of false accusations in college sexual assault hasn’t been studied and isn’t known. It’s probably low, but we actually don’t know what it is.

      I actually do agree with Jim that violent rape is quite different, and significantly worse, than being randomly groped or hook-up sex that doesn’t go well.

      I do think colleges should have to report anything that meets the legal definition of rape or sexual assault.

      I do like the idea of encouraging bystander intervention.

      1. re: ” Telling people how to stay out of vulnerable situations with strangers or near-strangers is not putting the onus on women.”

        I walk the dog in a nearby park virtually every day. When the weather is good and/or a weekend it brings out people … but there are a few who are solo women – and you can tell it’s different for them.

        For instance, two women or women in a group will wave at you when you go by but solo women usually don’t.

        Solo women, more often than not have a cell phone visible… never seen a solo guy with a cell phone unless he has ear buds … listening to music.

        It’s just my sense that women are more vigilant when walking solo…

        I can think of some guy situations – like a non-biker guy going into a biker bar… or walking in a bad neighborhood at night… or during the day when young males are congregating – gang-like….

        so guys also have a situational awareness – but it’s not at the level of gals who – are seen or see themselves as vulnerable to more kinds of threats.

        1. virginiagal2 Avatar
          virginiagal2

          I don’t disagree – but I don’t think it’s victim blaming. If I tell you how to avoid being mugged in New Orleans or New York, am I victim blaming you?

          How is that different?

          Also, and this is where I get annoyed, the threat in these situations is from strangers. Telling people to raise their sons not to rape is not going to wipe out rape, any more than telling people to raise their sons not to rob or not to murder is going to end robbery or murder.

          That’s a good example of where I see people taking one problem (stranger rape from predators) and talking about a solution to date rape. Not the same issue.

          1. well yes.. I focused on stranger threats which – for whatever reason tends to affect women in a different way than guys.. i.e. guys might feel less threatened … but no I’m not blaming the victim just pointing out what I think are differences between men and women in the way they perceive threats from strangers.

            and of course -you are entirely correct that the difference between strangers and known acquaintances is different… not only for rape – but murder also.

    3. KVDavis, I agree with much of what you say, and take strenuous objection to only one remark — your insinuation that my emphasis on the need for males to re-think their behavior is perfunctory. Not at all. If I gave it relatively little attention, it’s because it’s not controversial. People don’t raise objections to the idea that men need to change their behavior, so I felt no need to elaborate. On the other hand, the discussion over the degree to which women should be held accountable for their sexual behavior is hotly contested. If I devote more digital ink to that topic, it’s because that’s where the debate is.

      The “gang rape” controversy at UVa has given my wife and me cause to talk to our 16-year-old son about the issue. He finds the matter so remote from his reality (he’s a prudish kid) that he’s not terribly interested. But we still impress upon him that he should always be sensitive to the needs and desires of the women he interacts with, and that the idea of a man forcing himself sexually upon a woman against her wishes is vile and reprehensible. We also warn him of the dangers of drinking — not just because driving drunk is stupid but because drinking unhinges peoples’ judgment. And we tell him we would hold him responsible for doing stupid/bad things while intoxicated because he should never allow himself to get intoxicated in the first place.

      At its essence, the philosophy is grounded in the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you. If you want others to treat you with courtesy and respect, you treat others with courtesy and respect. Wow, treating people with courtesy and respect… what a radical notion!

  12. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    kvdavis –

    Thanks for your recent post. I agree with much of it. There is also much to ponder.

    Let me first raise two particular items, the first I disagree with. I thought the Atlantic piece on the Dark Power of Fraternities was quite unfair. Here are my views on that articles posted a few weeks ago on this site:

    “In my opinion the biggest difference between the Rolling Stone article on Jackie and The Dark Power of Fraternities published by Atlantic was that the Atlantic article was superbly, indeed beautifully, written. As a result those inexperienced enough to believe that the movie Animal House represented the typical fraternity would have their ignorance and resulting prejudges confirmed in spades by the Atlantic article. In short I consider the article a highly sophisticated hit piece. One that was without nuance or perspective, even though its stories likely contained more than a grain of truth.

    Anyone can collect legends about the wild times over the years at fraternities. I could entertain you for several nights running with such stories, ones that I was personally involved in or heard first hand from those involved as its story played out the night before I first heard it told. In so doing I and they would exaggerate. That’s what Frat boys do, and later memories enhance each tale to fabulous proportions.

    But that is not what a good and responsible journalist writing hard investigating reporting is supposed to do. They are not writing satire. If they want to get at the real and balanced truth, they don’t distill the craziest legends that kids themselves love to tell and exaggerate (building them with each telling to ever more monstrous portions), and then string those legends into a Magazine article without break or qualification, because then your final product of reporting distorts the living hell out of reality.

    … (for example) if Frat boys are such idiots as Atlantic suggests, how is it that in later life Frat boys give so much back (in terms of time and money) to their colleges and universities. Try to answer that question. Doing so you’ll have to asked yourself whether or not their fraternity experience may have played a roll in their later disproportionate productivity and generosity, allowing them to give back so much in time and money to higher education, generally, and their schools in particular. This is certainly the case in alums giving to the University of Virginia.”
    —-
    Here are some initial thoughts, kvdavis, on the second item.

    As Jim mentions in his chart Contextual Factors in Sexual Assault (see his article) there is reason believe that Fraternity houses are among the safest places at Uva for parties and social events, given the alternatives for students in Charlottesville. The University has these figures in abundance and it should release them immediately if only to either explain its actions to date, or simply disclose the truth of what is going on and why.

    And if the Fraternities are not the safest places for UVA students to party, THEY SHOULD FORTHWITH BE MADE SO. This is EASILY DONE.

    Why has the current regime at UVA not done this long ago? I see no excuse for its inaction. After all President Sullivan’s home on Carr’s Hill looks down on Mad Bowl for goodness sakes. How could she not know what is going on at Fraternities who for years now have been partying under her nose in plain sight?

    For goodness sakes how many young men admitted to UVA are rapists or prone to rape? Why does UVA admit them? Are these students not said to be among the finest most promising young men in the nation? Are we to believe they turn to sexual assault after entering UVA’s Culture? If so, why?

    I also think that women have a lot more power at UVA than you suggest. The question to my mind is what is dis-empowering them at UVA? This we need to further explore. Also what is UVA doing to empower these young women in a productive way rather that encourage the Hysteria we now see?

    On the other hand, I don’t for a minute think that all concerned share in this problem and that, like you suggest, it extends far out across the country. I’ll try to share my other thoughts on your very real concerns in a later posts.

    1. kvdavis Avatar

      Well now Larry this is really sweet (no snark here!): ‘” going well” in this context – is when I hear the unvarnished opinions from women – on issues that affect them…’

      You’re probably right that this issue is being woven in to other positions re: big and small government, personal responsiblity, etc. I guess as a woman I’m more like the pig at breakfast than the chicken – committed. So it’s not theoretical for me, as it might be to male policy experts like our good friend Jim.

      Re fraternities: I’m Greek agnostic, and want neither disproportionate attention paid, nor for their role to be glossed over. I saw the chart and was going to get in to that data – e.g., the number who experienced unwanted sex while incapacitated – but I’d already spent a long football Sunday on my essay as it was!

      I don’t think you read the whole Atlantic article tho – the stuff about insurance starts about 11 pages in. There’s intentional insurance structure that lets the organizations AVOID liability (after all, that’s what those expensive lawyers are for). Maybe if there were more sunshine on that, there would be more accountability. (Get to the part that says “parents’ homeowners insurance….”)

      I guess I feel – no wait, scratch that; what a female thing to say! It seems we’re chasing this argument of the problem of sexual assault around. First it’s just hook-up morning-after regret accusations; then it’s an unfair focus on fraternities; then it’s bad journalism; and worst: “hysteria” (look it up for it’s scary history).

      We can evolve the culture of young people’s sexual assumptions and sense of privilege if we FACE IT and TALK ABOUT IT as a culture.

      Yes means yes.
      An incapacitated woman is incapable of consent.
      You can play a role in bystander intervention.
      The only one to blame for an assault is the assaulter.
      Teaching safety to women doesn’t mean they’re to blame if they get assaulted. They can wear what they want, and have crazy college experiences equivalent to men.
      False accusations are as bad as assault and should be treated equally.

      1. re: ” Well now Larry this is really sweet (no snark here!): ‘” going well” in this context – is when I hear the unvarnished opinions from women – on issues that affect them…’

        I can’t seem to articulate this – in a way that does not insult.. sorry. I guess it demonstrates what insensitive louts – guys are…

        “You’re probably right that this issue is being woven in to other positions re: big and small government, personal responsiblity, etc. I guess as a woman I’m more like the pig at breakfast than the chicken – committed. So it’s not theoretical for me, as it might be to male policy experts like our good friend Jim.”

        well – I want to know the opinions that women have – on all issues – that guys have opinions are – but I especially want to know opinions of women on issues that directly affect women – as women.. I guess I just cannot get this said in a way that does not rub you the wrong way. My apologies and ..hopefully I will learn from you.. things I obviously don’t know – about you and your gender.

        …………

        I guess I feel – no wait, scratch that; what a female thing to say! It seems we’re chasing this argument of the problem of sexual assault around. First it’s just hook-up morning-after regret accusations; then it’s an unfair focus on fraternities; then it’s bad journalism; and worst: “hysteria” (look it up for it’s scary history).

        We can evolve the culture of young people’s sexual assumptions and sense of privilege if we FACE IT and TALK ABOUT IT as a culture.

        ” Yes means yes.
        An incapacitated woman is incapable of consent.
        You can play a role in bystander intervention.
        The only one to blame for an assault is the assaulter.
        Teaching safety to women doesn’t mean they’re to blame if they get assaulted. They can wear what they want, and have crazy college experiences equivalent to men.
        False accusations are as bad as assault and should be treated equally.”

        this is Good!

        Why not require FRAT houses to POST IT and all FRAT members to SIGN a form acknowledging they have read and understand it?

        oh wait.. that requires someone writing a nasty, likely Govt, top-down rule…

        1. kvdavis Avatar

          No no Larry! I really thought it was sweet! No snark! Apology rejected!

          1. well – this might get ridiculous but I don’t WANT to be “sweet”… I’d much rather be viewed as sour but trustworthy!

      2. “An incapacitated woman is incapable of consent.”

        Why wouldn’t you write … “An incapacitated person is incapable of consent.”?

        1. kvdavis Avatar

          DonR, In my original post, I eschewed (a word I almost never get to use!) ‘false equivalency’.

          Data on all these matters is difficult, but I suspect the instance of female-on-male rape or assault is miniscule, and not a policy issue. (We are also not discussing minors here, such as recent reports of teacher-on-student improprieties.)

          1. wait a minute KV – are you sure? have you not heard of HUSSIES?

          2. I don’t see any false equivalency. A man and a woman get drunk. They have willing sex. The man is a rapist if the woman decides she wasn’t really sober enough to consent. But the woman did nothing wrong by accepting the man’s drunken willingness as consent.

            Incapacitated is a flimsy word. Unconscious? Obviously rape. Stumbling, vomiting drunk? Obviously rape. Two light beers? You tell me.

            Too drunk to drive? That’s about three drinks for most people.

            What’s the BAC on “incapacitated”?

          3. kvdavis Avatar

            We have agreed this discussion is not about morning-after regret accusations.

            Such a thing would be bad and no one is supporting it.

            But men should not take advantage of drunk women and claim she was willing. It is a judgement call. Err on the side of respect.

            And THAT culture, of getting women blotto and then having sex with them, is accepted in fraternities.

  13. kvdavis Avatar

    ^^ response to both Larry and Reed.

    Also, I’m fine with Jim encouraging moral teachings, I just take exception to the focus on the women needing it most. I do credit him with a protective motive (my feminist daughter would call it ‘paternatlistic’…!).

  14. kvdavis Avatar

    Sorry Larry, your cover is blown; that’s whatcha get for lettin’ girls in….! 😉 They do things like add emojis (ugh!)!

    Off to watch Into the Woods with daughter before she heads back to college. We had a spirited family discussion yesterday on this, much informed by this blog.

    Thank you again, gentlemen, for hearing me out. I know we have all given each other much to ponder here.

  15. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Don R – good to see you back aboard.

    1. Work is a dirty four letter word. These guys are killing me.

  16. “And THAT culture, of getting women blotto and then having sex with them, is accepted in fraternities.”

    Talk about a blanket statement. I was in a fraternity. Three of my four college age sons were / are in fraternities. We’d all like to know the process by which you “get women blotto”. We were all under the apparently mistaken impression that women were capable of making decisions for themselves. At least that’s what their mother always told us.

    People get themselves blotto.

    I’ve been to a lot of fraternity parties. Everybody is drunk. The idea that the guys are some kind of sober svengalis who hypnotize women into getting blotto is imaginary.

    But men should not take advantage of drunk women … “. People should not take advantage of drunk people. And when two drunks collectively do something stupid they are both to blame.

    You should review the recent US Naval Academy case. No fraternities so I guess they can’t be blamed. Lots of alcohol. No accusations of force. Everything revolved around consent. Was that rape or morning after regrets?

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      I could not agree with you more.

    2. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      I have to admit, I have a problem with this too. I don’t see how, if two people have drunk sex, the man is automatically the one taking advantage of the woman.

      If both chose to drink ,and both chose to have sex, I can’t see how one took advantage of the other. And this is risky to women as well, because you cannot assume that your actions are not a violation of Title IX if the man objects later – this is not going to be a problem for just men. Be careful what you ask for.

      Telling people to take responsibility doesn’t mean it’s okay to have sex with the incapacitated – but realize, incapacitated, as I understand it, is not “beer goggles” – it’s in the realm of falling down, throwing up, passed out. No one should force sex on an incapacitated person. But that’s not the case in most of these discussions.

      To me, “getting women blotto” is kind of ridiculous – women choose to drink or not drink. If they choose to go to a party and get blotto and have random sex, they made a choice. Blaming that choice on someone else is not being a responsible adult. Being blotto is not usually equivalent to being incapacitated.

      I do not think women are children. I do not think women are stupid. We need to take responsibility for our actions, including the ones we might regret.

      1. I have to say – having a women’s perspective on these issue – informs everyone and having more than one women’s perspective – is even better – even if it shows that women themselves can have highly divergent views.

        in those cases – I tend to accept the things that women do agree on as a group even if it differs from male perspectives – and that’s the value of getting bother genders involved in the discussions.

        now I’ll shut up – and make Hill City Jim happier as well as some others I’m sure.

  17. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    I’ve had a chance to review the recent comments of Virginiagal2 and DonR.

    I think Virginiagal2 has an incredibly sure grasp in every stated respect on the issues raised here, and their practical solutions. I also agree with most all that DonR says on subject.

    I do believe DonR is underestimating the pernicious affect of the Hook-Culture as it is sold to incoming undergraduates by various special interest cultural factions at Universities to incoming undergraduate students. And thus how many such young undergraduates find it very difficult to resist, given their natural tendency toward groupie and tribal behavior. Here I am not faulting those young people, or even the older male hook-up specialists, as opposed to the criminal predator (whether it be the Jesse Matthews or the spiked drink drugging variety”) and the pushers of these hook-up habits by others within or related to the university, including many adults working for or allied with the Universities.

    I suggest that means must be put in place to give these younger students the means to make more informed choices, and Colleges here are very remiss in this regard. Nor am I suggesting the people have not the right to engage in hook-up should that be their free informed choice. In that regard it is quite interesting to note that the hook-up culture declines drastically among college hook uppers after they graduate. They typically go back to dating.

    As stated on earlier posts, there are many reasons for this, but one of the primary ones is that only college campuses are safe enough places for the hook-up culture to work as a practical matter.

    My general views on Hook-up Culture are based on the opinions of those best able to know, as they’ve expressed them in their three books on the subject that I’ve referred to.

    Hooking Up, sex, dating, and relationships on campus by Kathleen A. Bogle

    Unprotected by Miriam Grossman

    The End of Sex: How Hookup Culture is Leaving a Generation Unhappy, Sexually Unfulfilled, and Confused About Intimacy, by Donna Freitas

    I also think that Virginiagal2’s suggestion outlawing and disciplining Drunks on campus or within fraternities would slash Regret Sex and other sexually misconduct dramatically.

    I also agree with DonR’s comment: “In my opinion it’s the massive open house parties that cause a lot of the problems. Underaged students who might find it hard to get served booze in a bar find no problems in these house parties. You should need a license to host a party with over 20 people within a few miles of a college campus. You should have to submit a guest list at least two days before the party.”

    But I don’t think it necessary that “Police should come visit the party.” I suspect it better that a student structure of responsibility be set up.

  18. oh oh –

    ” New safety rules for fraternities at the University of Virginia would require at least three “sober and lucid” members to monitor behavior at parties, prohibit pre-mixed alcoholic drinks and implement guest lists to control entry to the houses during an event.

    The rules, made public Tuesday, also stipulate that one of the sober party monitors must be posted at a staircase leading to bedrooms and have “immediate key access to each room” in the house. That measure appears designed to prevent situations that could lead to sexual assault at U-Va’s fraternities.”

    let me guess. somehow this is going to get blamed on Obama and his merry feminist harem…. right?

    1. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      No, I think those are good ideas. I liked most of what Sullivan came up with as reported in the paper, too.

      I did not think much of the student ideas, which included (I am not joking, check out the Cavalier Daily) –

      Mandating a class in womens and gender studies for all students

      More university parties (because college doesn’t cost enough already, apparently, and because the ten thousand things to do in Charlottesville already are apparently not enough)

      Closing criminal trials in cases of sexual assault

      I also had the privilege of reading a professor’s take on the Honor Code as a patriarchical and Southern thing. I never though having personal honor and integrity was gendered, or that it was specific to the American South.

      I’m not a rabid conservative – more of a progressive with a bit of a libertarian streak, contradictory as that is – but these are not good ideas.

      I do not think a lot of what the OCR is coming up with are good ideas. I do not think that preponderance of evidence protects the accused. I do not think that universities should be adjudicating felonies. I do not think affirmative consent is remotely a good idea.

      I don’t believe that because I don’t trust women. I believe that because I think they are bad ideas that are not fair and not workable. One of the things that has been kind of a revelation to me in the post-Jackie uproar is finding myself agreeing with the libertarians more, and the progressives less. I have even found myself agreeing with conservatives that I have never before agreed with and probably never will again.

      I have been genuinely shocked at some of the ideas that have been put forth. I may be a women, but being unfair to men does not help me. I want to see all people treated fairly, male and female.

      1. you have things good and interesting to share and I appreciate it.

        re: ” finding myself agreeing with the libertarians more, and the progressives less. I have even found myself agreeing with conservatives that I have never before agreed with and probably never will again.”

        well – the different voices are part of what any dialogue is about – but at the end of the day – it’s what you can agree on – that moves things forward and those that find their principles inviolate to compromise tend to widen and polarize (in my view) and more often than not, paint anything that is different from their preferred beliefs – as “liberal, progressive, leftist” and never heard them say ” that’s too libertarian for me”. 😉

        most of the hard right works this way these days – unfortunately – and not just on this – but this is an exemplary example of how NOT to find an acceptable solution and how to continue the divisive gridlock we now have on the tough issues.

        I call it swallowing frogs – the folks on the right call it “violating their principles”. No matter how you characterize it the bottom line ends up this way:

        http://youtu.be/XG5GOH2CO1k

        the adults in the room – know this

      2. Virginiagal2, whether you deem yourself a progressive, conservative or something in between, your writing on this topic is a breath of fresh air… at least from my Southern, middle-aged white guy’s perspective.

        1. two things I totally agree with:

          “At its essence, the philosophy is grounded in the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you. If you want others to treat you with courtesy and respect, you treat others with courtesy and respect. Wow, treating people with courtesy and respect… what a radical notion!”

          “Virginiagal2, whether you deem yourself a progressive, conservative or something in between, your writing on this topic is a breath of fresh air… at least from my Southern, middle-aged white guy’s perspective.”

          yes totally agree – and the view of women here is essential…

  19. newmann Avatar

    Many if not most of the comments on this thread and earlier related postings seem to take the phenomena of campus sexual (mis)conduct out of context, treating it in isolation from a bigger picture of societal ills from whence it came……We all are in agreement (I assume) on the dangers of abhorrent behavior but I think solutions can only be successful if we can identify the reasons why it’s all happening in the first place. JAB has orig. provided a mini history but few have touched upon that open field.

    Quick fixes like taking alcohol out of the picture(or at least reducing the amount) like many have suggested is a good start and would certainly go a long way towards reducing the type of behavior we’re talking about. But putting the genie back into the bottle won’t happen unless there is a different zeitgeist if you will. And that is something that will only evolve over time and at many different levels of society and is entirely subjective. Perhaps JAB you could consider putting up another posting on this topic alone?

    Another observation that is glaringly obvious to me is that few of the commentators have any skin in the game, if you will, ie there are plenty of armchair critics, but how many of us have undergraduate children who themselves are in a much better position to observe this type of behavior than most of the middle-aged (or older?) adults here? Or who have friends or relatives whose children also are attending school and have weighed in on this (honestly) with their parents? Or perhaps work at a university or did and are knowledgeable about this part of student life? I have all three and have spoken at length to my own and to friends & others who also have undergraduate children. If this post continues I can share the thoughts of kids who are on the front lines as it were. Thankfully there are a growing number of kids who don’t ‘hook up’ and never did, and although that number may be smaller than those who do, it is nonetheless larger than you may think.

    If I were to point at any one thing that separates students who don’t, from those who do, I would say that kids who don’t participate in what I call deviant behavior have a ‘moral clarity’ that others don’t. They were either brought up right (as my mother used to say)or have a moral compass whether religiously inspired or not. They also seem to have a certain amount of common sense, which seems to have become unfashionable over the years. Oh and one last point, ‘hook-ing up’ actually starts in high school and does continue after college somewhat. It’s just a matter of degree.

    I will post later with the many answers I’ve received from friends and family if this thread continues..

    1. the good discussion continues…

      but let me ask – does anyone here think UVA in terms of it’s social mores is much different from similar sized Universities across the country?

      in other words – are we talking about “fixing” UVA or he US National University culture?

      can anyone here differentiate between UVA and other large Universities that would merit a UVA-specific solution?

    2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Excellent Points. Hope to here more.

    3. I hope you will share the observations about the hook-up culture that you glean from your children.

      My hunch (and it’s no more than that) is that a minority of kids participate in the hook-up culture — most kids don’t. But the greatest problems (binge drinking, sexual misconduct, etc.) are concentrated in the segment that do.

      1. kvdavis Avatar

        OK Jim, so what happens when a girl who does not engage in hook-up culture gets friendly, unknowingly, with a guy who does….how is that going to turn out if we don’t TELL MEN NO MEANS NO!

        This blog has been so discouraging to me that education and expectations and culture change can help.

        Maybe the threat of prosecution and their life flashing before their eyes – much like unmarried women felt when that little stick turned blue – is all that will work. I hope not.

        And, UVA only – let’s all act in our own communities.

        1. I totally agree that No Means No, and that every male in college (or out of college, for that matter) should honor it. I don’t recall seeing any male on this blog arguing otherwise. I’m sorry that you’ve had to fight off men who didn’t get the memo. I would never offer a defense of such boorish behavior. If a woman signals “no” and a man crosses the line, then it’s rape.

          Are we good so far?

          The controversy comes over how to treat an incident in which a woman either (a) failed to give the “no” signal,” or (b) did so while she and the guy were in a state of intoxication and he failed to get the signal, or (c) she was so drunk, she couldn’t remember for sure if she gave the signal or not.

          You seem convinced that such instances represent a small fraction of all sexual assault on campus. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren’t. Anyone can hazard a guess based on anecdote and ideological leaning. What we don’t have are facts grounded in methodologically sound social science. What I’ve consistently argued is that we need to know more about the problem before we start prescribing remedies — and that even means before we start prescribing my remedies.

          1. kvdavis Avatar

            Well Jim, if you don’t believe it is a problem, then I guess you don’t think it needs a solution, or that the solutions are somehow worse than the problem.

            Or, you could believe the 1,073 of 5,446 women reporting attempted or completed assault in the CSA study. Or some percent of them (I’d say 99%; you may differ).

            Other posters, here is the CSA – the first 21 pages of summary answer many of your questions.

            Of course eight years after the study was initiated, we have a much better understanding.

            https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

          2. virginiagal2 Avatar
            virginiagal2

            The CSA study is often held up as problematic – I am actually surprised you’re not aware of it, as it’s the one that gets picked apart most often.

            First and foremost, before I start, the people who did the study did not, and do not, claim it is representative nationally.

            Second and next-most, it is not capturing the data that you seem to think it is.

            The study was online only, anonymous, with a low response rate, taken from only two universities. What that adds up to is that you do not know if respondents are representative of the group as a whole. The researchers tried to measure that, but you really can’t, especially with an anonymous group.

            Further, even outside of that issue, you can’t in any way, shape, or form, take those numbers as representative of the nation as a whole. Even the researchers themselves explicitly state that.

            In general, people who are upset about something are more likely to respond to a survey than those who are not. When you have a low response rate, you are more likely to get skew. When you have a low response rate and no way to map back who responded and who didn’t, you cannot even estimate skew well and you can’t correct for it.

            The second problem with the CSA study is that it does not actually ask questions well-designed to measure behavior that is legally sexual assault and rape.

            Most of us have a good idea of what we consider sexual assault. It also has a legal meaning. Sometimes the two vary, sometimes not.

            Sexual assault, as defined in the questions in this survey, includes things like “forced kissing.” While forced kissing is boorish and potentially can be pretty gross, it is not what most of us think of when we’re talking about sexual assault.

            We may talk about sending rapists to jail and throwing away the key, but generally not so much for someone who tries to kiss you at the end of a date that didn’t go well.

            Also, the survey asks about unwelcome sexual contact – which sounds pretty clear, until it mixes in being drunk or drugged as being a reason you were not able to give consent to that contact.

            The threshold for not being able to give consent is not, are you drunk or drugged. The threshold, as I understand it (caveat – not a lawyer) is if you are incapacitated. Incapacitated is essentially having mental or physical capacity similar to a child or disabled person who cannot refuse contact. The threshold is not drunk or stoned.

            Beer goggles is not equivalent to incapacitated.

            Ditto pot goggles. From what I understand, incapacitated is pretty darn incapacitated. Think that poor girl in Stuebenville.

            By phrasing the question as drunk or drugged, you are going to get a number of positive responses from people who agreed to sex that they would not have agreed to if sober, but who did not meet the legal threshold for incapacitated. Probably a large number, actually. Those interactions are not legally rape or sexual assault.

            In other words, this is not a well-designed instrument to measure what we say we want to measure. It is going to pick up ill-advised, but non-rape-non-assault sex. Further, the population it’s measuring is likely not representative, and very likely has an over-representation of people who have had a sexual experience that they felt was assault.

            Defining unwanted sexual contact broadly would be fine if we were measuring undesirable sexual contact, but it is being put forward as a measurement of sexual assault and rape. If you are going to put numbers forward and claim they measure sexual assault and rape, your definitions and questions need to match the legal definition of those crimes.

            Further, even if you want to use a broader definition, if you want to claim your number represent actual incidence, you need to adjust your study population to be representative.

            I have some background in math and statistics, and so I do not tend to take studies at face value. However, this one has been pretty thoroughly criticized before I got to it. The whole study is online at the link you gave, if anyone wants to look at it.

            Many of the studies put forward have similar issues. It’s probably a big portion of why these studies show a higher percentage of rape and sexual assault than the women themselves report.

          3. re: “studies”

            in the age of the internet – vetting information at all levels is an absolute necessity. trust but verify.

            what we all should know by now is that virtually anyone can publish anything and even making it look or sound credible when it’s totally – not.

            So, for instance, you’ll see a paper on Climate and the author claims a PHD and if you don’t bother to check – you’ll think it is in Climate Science instead of Sociology.

            You’ll find POLLs designed by the poll takers to yield a desired result.

            You’ll see claims like – Obama has the biggest debt since all prior Presidents combined when the POTUS does not spend money, Congress does.

            Correlation is NOT causation…

            and if you are looking for something to confirm your own views – it’s super easy.

            Finding the “truth” is no longer the easy task we thought it used to be.

            People no longer trust, not only the govt but long-standing here-to-for trusted institutions.

            and so this inevitably leads to “dueling studies”… and all kinds of other “information” claptrap… and claims of “ideological-driven” disinformation.

            They teach in College a course called “Logic”. The very first class they teach a rubric that advises: ” just because all S’s are P’s does NOT mean all P’s are S’s. i.e. – just because all whites are humans does NOT mean all humans are white.

            so what’s the answer to information chaos?

            Part of it is looking for where multiple studies do agree and note where there is disagreement.

            Part of it is looking for obvious contradictions in some claims – like with the RS article of lying on a pile of glass and not having any cuts.

            Part of it is to NOT trust a source that you usually trust – not without further checking… If you like FOX or MSNBC – do not trust either one until you hear the other one agreeing … on the facts.

            Don’t trust sources that claim to be presenting the “news” but are really offering commentary disguised as ” we report, you decide”.

            In short – the world we live in these days – REQUIRES that we think CRITICALLY about whatever we read and always take a trust but verify approach especially with Think Tank-driven studies that seem to confirm their basic agendas… etc..

            We have become a society that is always looking for the easy bottom line answers and way, way too willing to accept the conclusions that confirm our own biases.

            When it comes to data and “information” these days – the rule should always be “Caveat emptor”.

        2. virginiagal2 Avatar
          virginiagal2

          I think everyone posting here agrees that no means no.

          No means no isn’t even roughly equivalent to affirmative consent.

          1. well.. there still seems to be some sentiment that thinks if you go to a party and get drunk and act randy – that you lose your “no” or at least it gets degraded.

            but LOOK – you GOTTA READ THIS – it’s redemption for some:

            Seattle woman charged with raping man during break-in

            http://kdvr.com/2014/09/14/seattle-woman-charged-with-raping-man-during-break-in/

          2. virginiagal2 Avatar
            virginiagal2

            I actually haven’t gotten that vibe here – more “she may lose her good reputation” disapproval rather than “losing her no.”

  20. kvdavis Avatar

    Newmann, yes, thank you! (I mentioned I’m more like the pig than the chicken at breakfast…committed.) Daughter is a sophomore at a Big Prestigious Public University and became active in its Sexual Assault Prevention and Awareness Coalition (SAPAC) her freshman year. (We said, hey, you could have gone in to musical comedy, but whatever…)

    My demo is middle-aged Southern, white, Christian, progressive, professional, wife and mother. I do however oppose “Christian” values being promoted on secular campuses, and I applaud non-judgmental safe-sex programs. Raise your children as you wish – in our family, sex is a gift from God to celebrate a monogamous, committed relationship. But policy should not punish, or fail to support, victims who did not adhere to that goal, and frankly, I expect our daughter will experiment with recreational sex.

    I also have standing here as a sexual assault survivor – and while none were date-rape, I had to forcefully strong-arm my way out of a few encounters where he wanted to go further, faster than I did.

    I think our daughter was indeed a pretty fragile little flower her freshman year, even at 5′ 11″. (Was very glad for her to take a two-day, 14-hour self-defense course thru SAPAC, tho!) While some 18-y-o girls/women may be hardened, experienced, and tough, simple math means many first year girls are inexperienced with sex and alcohol, and certainly emotionally.

    Jim takes exception to my saying he gave only glancing reference to the need to communicate among men on their behavior because it is uncontroversial. I have been dismayed at the column space in this blog-topic regarding women’s responsibility, with only asides about men’s. (Indeed, the overwhelming implication in these discussions has been that the majority of date-rape accusations are morning-after regrets by, well, drunk, lying sluts; e.g., “A man and a woman get drunk. They have willing sex. The man is a rapist if the woman decides she wasn’t really sober enough to consent. But the woman did nothing wrong by accepting the man’s drunken willingness as consent.”) Can we agree to say morning-after regret false accusations are BAD and stop talking about them!? The relentless focus on this tiny minority of reported assaults undermines the credibility of those posters.

    We also need to change the culture where girls are still supposed to appear resistent, or they’re labeled sluts. No needs to mean no, not maybe; and so Virginiagal2, that is why explicit consent is a valuable expectation to promote.

    But so many appear so much more concerned about false accusations than unwilling sex!…perhaps because it is harder for men to imagine that feeling of violation…this is both cultural and biological.

    Oh, and, instructions on how to get first-year ‘women’ blotto: Make punch with fruit flavors. Add alcohol at more than 1 oz. per serving. Serve in Solo cups. Refresh often.

    1. virginiagal2 Avatar
      virginiagal2

      I don’t think we can stop talking about morning after regrets and misunderstandings, because they actually do appear, from the lawsuits, to be the majority of cases where men feel they were wrongly accused. Being wrongly accused of rape is huge – even if it’s uncommon, it’s devastating.

      This is different from simple false accusation – and it can’t be dismissed by saying that false accusations are rare. This is more complex.

      I don’t think you – or anyone else – has a good solid breakdown on what percentage of accusations fall into what category, so we really can’t say any specific case is a tiny minority. We just don’t know.

      I don’t personally believe that girls need to appear resistant and I don’t think that’s what most people are saying here (not so sure about a couple.) Saying no when you don’t want something has nothing whatsoever to do with requiring girls to appear resistant – and doubly so because this is a rule for EVERYONE, not just girls. Saying no when you don’t want to do something is a good rule for life in general, not just in sex.

      But I do not, at all, agree that affirmative consent is a good idea. In fact, I believe it is a genuinely terrible idea.

      No means no makes sense. Having to explicitly give permission to each thing at each step is not how actual humans actually have sex, and I personally find the idea pretty gross and offputting. What is this, the “talk dirty to me rule?” Gross.

      I am not just disagreeing with your assertion that affirmative consent is a “valuable expectation to promote” – I think it’s a bad idea that should be actively opposed.

      At 18, your daughter is an adult. She can join the military. She can get a job. I know kids that age that have been in combat situations – and those kids in combat are not just boys.

      The far lower bar of simple basics of self preservation are not remotely equivalent to being hardened and tough.

      If your daughter was able to get into a good university, then she should be capable of understanding that drinking under 21 is illegal, that liquor gets you drunk, and that drunk people have lowered inhibitions and are prone to doing stupid things – not just stupid sexual things, but things that can get you killed or arrested.

      Even if you didn’t tell her these things, she can pick them up from watching TV. You should not be sending her off to college without understanding this.

      Finally, no, what you gave are not instructions on how to get first year women blotto. Those are instructions on how first year women get themselves blotto – illegally, I might add, because almost no first year is 21.

      Women cannot be taken seriously in this world if we do not take responsibility for our own choices, and choosing to illegally drink mixed punch from someone you don’t know is making a choice to get drunk, parenthetically knowing that you are breaking the law doing so. No one is scarfing down grain alcohol punch because of the taste, and no one with an IQ in triple digits is unaware that the punch is spiked.

      Unless the red cups were poured down his or her throat, that’s the first year’s choice.

      At worst, the fraternity is an enabler. But there are plenty of places to get drunk in Charlottesville – including underage – without fraternities. Spoken from personal firsthand observation here.

      18 year olds are not children, they are not stupid, and they are responsible for their own choices. That does not excuse sexual assault – that is solely and entirely on the assaulter – but the fact that sexual assault is the responsibility of the assaulter does not magically absolve 18 year olds of the need to act like the adults they legally are. They don’t, as a group, always make the best choices, but treating them like little kids isn’t helping them make better ones.

      Walking in front of a car and getting hit, being arrested for drunk and disorderly, or being arrested for underage drinking are not pleasant experiences and not things that help one get a good job. All of those things have happened to real kids – promising kids – after too much drinking. That is not slut shaming – it’s saying, 18 year olds of either sex are adults and there is some expectation for them to step up and act like it.

  21. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    There is a just published piece on these issues found at:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/campus-security_822387.html

    It’s written by a college professor at a mid-sized liberal arts college. It’s one professor’s effort to answer Larry’s question, namely:

    “does anyone here think UVA in terms of it’s social mores is much different from similar sized Universities across the country? in other words – are we talking about “fixing” UVA or he US National University culture?”

    And it’s worth reading.

    1. I got through the first two pages but then gave up.. there is no real point to the article.. it’s an assemblage of a goofy perspective.. sorry Reed.

      one fool thinks that going to a heavily govt subsidized University often with a govt- subsidized loan is anything remotely close to “libertarianism”?

      then he gets into privileges without responsibilities.. really?

      I guarandamtee you that you better pass your courses if you are going to graduate – unless of course you’re one of those scholarship athletes!

      Hill City Jim mentioned Liberty University.. anyone care to guess how things work on that campus compared to ..say.. UVA or Georgia Tech or Nebraska?

      The author – ” Lawler writes broadly from a Catholic intellectual tradition that emphasizes the importance of limits on unfettered personal autonomy in shaping well-lived lives, as well as the centrality of the love of truth in making sense of the human experience and knowing “who we are and what we are supposed to do.” Lawler argues that moral anthropology suggests the possibility of God’s existence and love. His influences include both Catholics like Augustine, Pierre Manent, Thomas, Pascal, Flannery O’Connor, Tocqueville and Walker Percy, as well as non-Catholic thinkers (especially Leo Strauss).”

      Obviously he has a particular perspective and my guess is – that he’s not exactly an advocate of the modern campus life.. we see at most Universities these days.

      I don’t hold that against him – he’s certainly entitled to his views – but is he someone who can be truly objective when writing about contemporary life on college campuses?

      I dunno Reed -.. this guy seems to be another right-leaning type… to me.. and I’d doubt seriously that much of what he advocates would find favor with most middle-ground folks..

      am I wrong?

      1. kvdavis Avatar

        Peter Lawler – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lawler_%28academic%29 – professor at Berry College in NW GA, enrollment ~2,000, Christian values (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

        He sounds like a generally respectable conservative Catholic intellectual. Obviously the Weekly Standard expects a conservative audience (I found it almost unreadable and as if it were from a different planet…but that’s probably how he feels reading the New Yorker and Daily Beast…)

        His observation on “…both narratives of outrage, the one grounded in political correctness and the other in individual rights” was curious – I thought the integrity of my body was an individual right but then, I’m a liberal.

        I’m starting to get snarky here so I’ll probably log off.

        Jim is a widely respected fellow and I appreciate his independent perspective on land use, environment and transportation.

        1. re: ” (I found it almost unreadable and as if it were from a different planet…but that’s probably how he feels reading the New Yorker and Daily Beast…)”

          unreadable because his perspective is – _not_ open-minded but rather a staunch defense of his own principles which, in my view, does not really address the wider realities found in the macro of contemporary campus life

          His observation on “…both narratives of outrage, the one grounded in political correctness and the other in individual rights” was curious – I thought the integrity of my body was an individual right but then, I’m a liberal.”

          and yes – you’ll find his perspective at a lot of the more Conservative, religious colleges.. which again – is okay if that’s what snaps your socks.

          When you read him and try to find his recommendations –

          it ends like this:

          ” The point of the residential college campus is to allow students to spend some time apart from—to rise above—the rather ignoble libertarian securitarianism that deforms our time. For now, too many campuses seem in perverse ways to be even more libertarian and more securitarian than the rest of our country, even its most sophisticated precincts. Those residential colleges without a point, it seems to me, aren’t worth the big cost (funded too often by student loans) required to sustain them. So they probably don’t—and shouldn’t—have much of a future.”

          okay – lots of commentary… but what is the real point of his article?
          oh wait – “reflections” on Campus Security – but he ends with ”
          Those residential colleges without a point, it seems to me, aren’t worth the big cost”

          This might snap Reeds socks but not mine – in essence – because the guy goes on and on about his beliefs – and never gets to any point about what he would do and he ends it talking about college costs…… geeze…

          there are too many of us that are transfixed by our issues these days. we seem to be unable to figure out a path forward so we keep pointing to the past – as if we could go back…

          we have to do something.. that’s the bottom line – and we cannot keep on for years arguing about what we cannot or will not do.

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        I agree, it’s not an easy read. Too many big words, too few concrete details illustrating those big words. S0 I had to work hard at it, but felt rewarded afterward for the work.

        One reason for that, I believe, is that I saw no rigid ideology in the article, but rather intelligent though providing insight (abet after some struggle on the reader’s part) to which anyone can chose to disagree or agree. Just like one finds in, for example, many of the best Atlantic articles.

        That was my take on it, and why I found it “worth the read”.

        1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
          Reed Fawell 3rd

          His influences include “both Catholics like Augustine, Pierre Manent, Thomas, Pascal, Flannery O’Connor, Tocqueville and Walker Percy, as well as non-Catholic thinkers (especially Leo Strauss)”

          That’s pretty good company by most any standards, guys.

          1. everyone has influences, Reed.

            hells bells – I can rattle off a herd of folks that inspire me

            and so can Charles Mann or Bob McDonnell …

            that’s not the gig…

            the gig is to figure out a way to get through these wickets – today – in a way that those who are affected will find acceptable and doable.

            Thomas Jefferson was a fornicater… the man who founded UVA was messing around with his female slaves..
            Even then, I consider Jefferson one of the most important “influences” in the history of the country… and would not disqualify him for his moral faults.. and of course he also died flat broke but whose keeping count?

            he was a GREAT man who created a great University but even Jefferson would want to resolve this issue and move on to other challenges – not chew on it like a dog on a bone until kingdom come.

  22. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    One of most valuable insights the article provided was his views on the relative social, emotional, and intellectual poverty of male versus female student at a “mid-tier liberal arts college” in America.

    Thus the article’s commentary suggests that young US males are in trouble, but in ways far broader, different and worrisome than we’ve addressed here.

    1. re: ” Thus the article’s commentary suggests that young US males are in trouble, but in ways far broader, different and worrisome than we’ve addressed here.”

      it’s a point of view from a guy who leans conservative in his politics…

      he offers no path forward..

      what’s the value of the commentary to the current players in the campus sexuality issue?

    2. Reed – here’s my frustration. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the guy is 100% dead on correct.

      now what?

      what is the path forward?

      why should I listen to him?

  23. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    I certainly do not care whether you listen to him or not. You need to make that decision for yourself. You are after all responsible for your own conduct. Thus you then need to decide whether you are going to conjure up in your own head some original thoughts to the subject based on his information instead of stranding off to the side taking thoughless potshots at others. That is the stance of a coward. And an empty headed one at that.

    1. au contraire

      I have no patience for those who have opinions about what they don’t like but no suggestions for going forward.

      that’s what is cowardly… in my view.

      we need less complainers and more folks showing leadership on how to leave where we are now and go to a better future.

      Reed – I’m totally fine when someone says: ” this is what is wrong – and this is how we should move ahead”.

      I’m totally not fine when they blather on and on and on and on about what they don”t like.. and have nothing more to say.

      surely you are also tired of saying what is wrong and want to find a better way forward – also…

      what about it? can we find something to agree on ?

  24. and Reed – I’ve given thoughts on how to go forward. I agree with KVDAVIS on this:

    ” Yes means yes.
    An incapacitated woman is incapable of consent.
    You can play a role in bystander intervention.
    The only one to blame for an assault is the assaulter.
    Teaching safety to women doesn’t mean they’re to blame if they get assaulted. They can wear what they want, and have crazy college experiences equivalent to men.
    False accusations are as bad as assault and should be treated equally.”

    I think every single new student should be given a copy of this and also sign a copy kept by the University.

    I also support keeping uniform statistics – AND making them available on a continuous basis and a comparison tool between schools so there will be peer competition on dealing with the issues. Sunshine is the disinfectant that is needed.

    I don’t support folks talking about what they don’t like and don’t want to do – and not saying what they DO want to do.

    we seem to have a epidemic of the “do nothing but complain and blame” types these days.

    surely you should be of the same mind.. time to move forward.

  25. Mr. Bacon,

    I’ve read through this series and all the comments and have a few of my own:

    1. In the first post of the series you claimed that UVa President Sullivan “pushed through the sexual-assault agenda that had been in the works since early in the year” in order to avoid “letting a crisis go to waste.” I seriously doubt that anyone at the university planned to shut down fraternity social activities, hire the law firm, or create the ad hoc group until after the Rolling Stone article was published.

    2. With respect to the actual policies under consideration prior to publication of the article, you don’t make much of a case that ideology drove these decisions. To be sure, you spend a lot of time challenging the “1 in 5” claim in the second and third posts in the series so you can argue that liberals have an ideological reason for overstating the problem of sexual assault at universities. But this is in fact a problem, and the flaws in the study you critique don’t mean it’s not. In fact, quite a few other peer reviewed studies suggest that sexual assault and violence are quite common on campuses, though it varies widely with the size and type of the school. In any event, the four components of the policy – surveys, engaging men, responding to assault, special training, and school disciplinary systems — seem to me as effective for managing problems associated with “drunken hook-up culture” (whatever that is) as for a “rape epidemic.” So you need more if you want to support a claim that these policies, though based on the Task Force findings, have an ideological purpose.

    3. You make an empirical claim of your own: “many if not most so-called sexual assaults stem from a mix of assertive female sexuality, boorish and insensitive male attitudes, and a promiscuous hook-up culture fueled by alcohol and drugs.” I would very much like to see you support this claim, or at least define terms like “assertive female sexuality” and “hook-up culture.”

    4. With respect to “hook-up culture,” you and Mr. Fawell 3rd may want to broaden your source material beyond Bogle, Grossman, and Freitas. Most actual social science on the subject suggests that it is a myth. Bogle at least takes a shot at an empirical study, but interviews with only 50 students from only two universities does not a generalizable claim make. Grossman is an anti-PC activist who writes for TownHall. And Freitas is a religious studies professor at a Catholic university who may have arguments about why a hook-up culture is bad, but says very little about whether one actually exists. Who is ideological now?

    In the end, much of this discussion sounds like a bunch of curmudgeons complaining about “young people today” and the “breakdown in moral values.” I mean, really, if they’d just go on dates down at the soda shop like we used to and make sure boys stay on the first floor of the dorm (except for those panty raids, boy those were fun!) and chaperone those dances so no one spikes the punch then we wouldn’t have all that sex and drinking and stuff. None of that monkey business went on when I was planning mixers at Sig Ep back in the day!

    RSS

    1. Mr. Scott, Thank you for your thoughtful observations. You may be right, I may be wrong. I fully acknowledge that I am far removed from the campus sex scene — a lot can change in 40 years, and who even knows if my experience in the early 1970s was even typical? My goal has been to challenge the dominant narrative with a different narrative — one that is not widely articulated by college administrations or campus anti-rape movements — in the hope of opening up the conversation rather than proceed to a set of ideologically driven conclusions.

      Obviously, I wouldn’t push the “hook-up culture” narrative if I didn’t think there was something to it. But I have not pretended that I have a monopoly on the truth — that’s the failing of those on the other side of the debate, who refuse to consider any other way of looking at the issue.

      In the end, the three things that I absolutely insist upon are that (a) we cannot solve the campus sexual-assault problem if we don’t understand what’s really happening, (b) we can’t understand what’s really happening without better data, and (c) we won’t get better data if the methodology behind the surveys and questionnaires we send out to students stack the deck to support the dominant narrative — as I’m afraid could very well occur.

      1. you did a good job Jim ..until –

        ” My goal has been to challenge the dominant narrative with a different narrative — one that is not widely articulated by college administrations or campus anti-rape movements — in the hope of opening up the conversation rather than proceed to a set of ideologically driven conclusions.”

        your “goal” sounds an awful lot like the right’s current condemnation of the left when it comes to issues like this.

        your complaint is not at all unique to you – it’s the complaint de jure coming from the right these days… and it sounds like you are parroting it.

        the complaint from the right is that the current college and govt players ARE, in fact, driven by ideology.

        correct?

        and that is your claim also, right?

      2. kvdavis Avatar

        Cognitive bias – one of my favorite topics! (which I learned about at the Southern Christian-rooted liberal arts university I went to, in Philosophy of Science.)

        Also makes a fun parlor game! – Which one are *you* most subject to….

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

        1. well – I, for one, am benefitting from hearing the different views now appearing including the differences (and agreement) in the women’s views.

          I too, think “affirmative consent” is a wacko idea… sorry kv…

          I don’t want to see a guy interrogated by the authorities who are going down some checklist and asking – did she say “yes” at this point and then ask her the same question and then having multiple 3rd parties parsing words and body language and delivering their verdict.

          bad idea.

          1. larryg,

            Authorities already do this when accusations are made. And in fact the best way for a man to protect himself would be to record the woman saying, “Yes, please do that to me.”

            Doing this every time is, of course, not a workable solution – though almost every young college male has the technology.

            Still, I can’t think of any reason why policymakers shouldn’t try to formalize the requirement in some way. Part of today’s problem is that people just aren’t sure what consent is and what it isn’t.

            Just a thought.

            RSS

          2. kvdavis Avatar

            Virginiagal2, I don’t mean to undermine personal responsibility and agency; it’s just that elides so easily into victim-blaming (follow the comments on, for example, Hannah Graham).

            But you’re right, we should add to what we as parents, friends and campuses teach our girls, “you should assume that punch at a party is really strong, and people who choose to drink should know it takes a while to learn how you respond to alcohol.” (I know! Maybe the Obama administration could require nutritional labeling on punch bowls….)

            Sounds like we all agree – no surprise – that personal integrity and honor includes looking out for each other. And as Virginiagal2 points out, I may be longing for a code of chivalry that is long past. It’s worth reviving tho (another link to Bystander video – Who Are You – the downside, it is a stranger, when ~90% of assault is by someone known to the victim.)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zr1oxEbdsw

            It’s also clear from this spirited dialog that we need to discuss this in our communities. For those who have not followed it, some of this is new, and offers somewhat uncomfortable perspectives and vocabulary.

            I am pretty up to date as 1) a sexual assault survivor, 2) and mom of a teen girl who 3) became active in SAPAC when she entered university – a very timely topic, as it turned out.

            For those of you who have come to this recently, as a result of the appallingly bad journalistic judgement of the Rolling Stone, please know there are tons of resources available with the data and discussion you say you desire. Here’s two:

            http://www.vsdvalliance.org/#/aboutcontact-us

            http://clerycenter.org/

            …these resources will provide you with a field day of targets of proposals, policies and reports which you believe to be over-reaching – and maybe some of them are.

            But please respect the perspective and voice of those of us who have standing.

          3. I’m not hard over on the involvement of the govt as Jim seems to be and I think as a practical matter – most people want some level of govt involved in this – even if there are a minority on the right who do not.

            The problem with the minority these days – is that they do not acknowledge that they are actually in – the minority. MOST PEOPLE want some level of govt involvement on these kinds of issues – that’s pretty apparent.

            but I’m not yet convinced of the new “protocol” for sexual relations…between consenting ( at least initially) people.

            I realize that people should be able to change their mind and that there never should be any point of no return – but it makes me queasy just thinking about the kinds of questions that would be put to both parties in a subsequent “investigation”.. like ” well her hand was on my butt and pushing me as she said no, no no… etc…

            I just see that kind of thing turning into a disaster… where if push comes to shove – pun not intended – the prosecutor is going to be throwing his/her hands up in the air and say – ” hells bells.. I’ve got murders and real violent rapes to deal with ..why this?”

            what I like is a social media reporting mechanism where women can record their thoughts to each other about their experiences.. and give each other support – and especially for newbies..

            guys would be free to do the same..

            but if a guy has several reports from different women – e.g. like the Cosby affair – then other women will be on notice that more than one of other women did have a regrettable experience with the same game.

          4. virginiagal2 Avatar
            virginiagal2

            With the Hannah Graham coverage, I saw very little (not no, but very little) victim blaming or shaming, and what little there was came from kind of fringe-y anger mavens.

            Hannah Graham seems like a wonderful person whose life was cut too short.

            However, that said, it’s not unfair for people to observe that the choices she made did put her at risk. She was alone, for a long period and over a fairly long distance, very late at night, and was reported by multiple witnesses to be extremely intoxicated. Interviews with friends of the man charged with assaulting her indicate that he routinely targeted the drunkest girl in the bar or club.

            She was by all accounts a nice girl, from a good and loving family, who had probably lived in a relatively safe place most of her life. She apparently felt safe making herself vulnerable. But when you are vulnerable, sometimes there are bad people that take advantage of it.

            That is not victim blaming. It is the actual circumstance of her death. The only person to blame for her death is the person who killed her. He took a really good person from us. She did not deserve to die. She did not get what she should have expected, or any of those other awful cliches.

            But if we don’t learn from this – learn that there are predators out there, and that being alone and extremely intoxicated late at night makes us more vulnerable to them – we can’t protect ourselves, and we can’t teach others to protect themselves. There is a difference between victim blaming, which is very very wrong, and learning from awful events to try to prevent the next victim.

            The other thing I feel, very strongly, is that in this discussion, we all have standing on this – not just victims of sexual assault.

            Changes in how we define consent to sex affect every single one of us, and in the most intrusive way possible. One reason I so strongly oppose affirmative consent is that I do not think anyone else should be telling me how I should have consensual sex and how I have to talk about it with my spouse. This goes so far beyond what I feel is acceptable, I am genuinely appalled.

            Second, the other proposed changes affect all of us – depending on age, our brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. We all have standing, and we all have a significant stake in this.

          5. pretty much agree.. and from my perspective – I can’t ignore domestic violence… which if you believe the statistics – most of us have actually been a witness to ….at some point in our lives.

            My dad – a Marine – would get liquored up and come home and beat the tar out of Mom (broken bones, etc) – then beg forgiveness later and she always forgave him until the last time when he went after her with a butcher knife and she left for good. this was more than 50 years ago.. He went off to die – heartbroken (if you can understand people like him).

            He was at one point in his life (as all violent/predators usually are) – a small child in elementary school who probably was typical and normal – but somewhere in growing up – he turned into something else – a threat to his wife (he would NEVER touch his kids) -when he was drunk and his behavior was not at all unusual where military families lived on base.. or off. Being drunk and beating up the wife was not terribly rare..

            so that experience has gone into my perspective of drinking, sex, and violence in he various dimensions that we see – in different venues – college, military and domestic..

          6. Thanks so much for sharing this with us Larry. I think one of the great things about the community the Internet promotes is this kind of frank discussion.

            It used to be, the survivors of assault – which as a child, you were – felt shame about such incidents, and a sense of disloyalty if they talked about it.

            And that’s why it’s important for people to feel they will be believed.

            Re: standing – I knew saying that would p some people off; I hope you understand – it’s just hard to be lectured by armchair philosophers who have never experienced anything like it.

            I also can’t help but wonder the correlation between sympathy on the matter of date-rape, and parents of young-women daughters!

            Will not be weighing in much any more; I think any effort at ‘education’ o the topic has gone about as far as it can on this board. And it’s not fruitful to continue swatting down straw men such as suggesting we require verbal consent between spouses. (Tho hey, if it was good enough for Molly Bloom….!)

            Here’s to the Golden Rule.

          7. virginiagal2 Avatar
            virginiagal2

            Concern about misapplication of affirmative consent is not a straw man.

            If you change the level of consent to affirmative consent for college campuses, you change it for all – including married students.

            There is no “married exception” any more for rape or sexual assault, and that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

            If you change the level of consent to affirmative consent for all, then it applies to all of us, including me and my spouse. If you don’t think that will come up at some point, you don’t know very many divorced couples.

            Right now affirmative consent is the law only on college campuses in a couple of states. However, laws are broad instruments – cudgels, rather than scalpels, to use the cliche. They apply to everyone who meets the definitions set forth in those laws, even if that wasn’t who the law was meant to address.

            If you look into the history of most bad laws, you find that the problems with them were often recognized before they were passed – and those concerns were met with “no one would possibly interpret the law that way”, when “that way” was clearly within the correct, as-written scope of the law.

            Instead of dismissing legitimate concerns about the very real problems poorly thought-through laws will cause, we need to avoid passing poorly thought-through laws in the first place.

  26. Mr. Bacon,

    You’re welcome, and thanks for the kind words. I appreciate you taking my comments in the spirit of opening up the conversation.

    But if I may, you characterized the “rape epidemic” claim as an effort to impose ideology-based policies using misleading statistics without apparently considering a wider range of studies that support the claim. This is pretty dismissive for someone who claims no “monopoly on the truth.”

    Your headline “The ‘Culture of Rape’ Demands Moral Reform” and your bare assertion that “The root problem is a drunken college hookup culture” amount to pretty strong truth claims. Rather than qualify these claims (“If we assume that”) or provide a pro-con discussion, you then go on to lay out the “three dimensions” of a “campaign against drunken college hook up sex.” Again, this does not sound like someone who claims no “monopoly on the truth.”

    Attitudes about complicated social issues, and our policy preferences with respect to addressing them, depend a lot on our shared normative understandings. In this case, perspectives on things like the role of women in society, the role of sex and pleasure in our lives, how and whether drugs and alcohol affect social interactions and ability to consent, and how to balance the rights of accusers with the rights of the accused, among others, matter. Our attitudes on these questions help define our approach to the problem – or at least give us a starting point. I suspect that the source of your “ideology” complaint is that you object to government seeking a solution to a social problem that does not depend on imposing a particular set of moral values on young people.

    As always, I could be wrong.

    RSS

    1. You are quite right — I do hew to a conservative/libertarian ideology that resists the idea that government is the answer to every problem in society. I believe that government is often the cause of the problem. I also believe that many solutions are better when they bubble up from the population — through a moral revolution, for instance, in which people assume responsibility for their own actions — than when they are imposed from above. And I think it’s fair to say that my “counter narrative” in the sexual-assault controversy emanates to some degree from that ideology.

      I’m quite open about it.

      Knowing that of myself, I think it is likewise probable that the dominant understanding of the “epidemic of rape” is likewise informed by a left-leaning ideology that turns first to government for solutions. This is so self-evidently true that I’m mystified that anyone would dispute the fact.

      1. kvdavis Avatar

        Re: government – yet, without Title IX, we would not be having this discussion on a national level, at all.

        Survivors would be left alone, unheard, and unbelieved, same as it ever was.

        1. the problem with the “we don’t need no stinkin govt folks” is totally apparent when you ask them what to do instead.. not only on this issue.

          they’re obviously conflicted but they really don’t have viable alternatives other than things like “better morals” …..

          but geeze .. whatever happened to those panty raids? Did govt kill them too?

          😉

      2. Sir,

        So you complain that others depend on ideology rather than facts when developing solutions to public policy issues, but for you it’s OK.

        Fair enough, but I expected more and better from you.

        You should resist the urge to think that someone else’s understanding of public policy is informed by leftist ideology just because a right-wing ideology informs yours. And if you think this is so self-evident that it is beyond dispute, you may as well drop the high-minded talk of hypotheses and evidence and such.

        To be sure, government does many things very poorly – it has a weak record when it comes to setting production goals for toilet paper in second-world East European countries, for example. But this is a criminal justice issue that has nothing to do with moral turpitude – or at least you’ve made no kind of empirical case that it does.

        Since this is a criminal justice problem – how to protect young women on college campuses from sexual violence and harassment while protecting the rights of the accused — government has a role. If men are breaking the law by forcing themselves on their coed classmates, the moral behavior of those classmates does not absolve those men of their guilt.

        The White House Task Force looking for solutions makes no determination about root causes – it only makes a case that a problem exists. This TF consists of experts and citizen stakeholders seeking answers relevant to the contexts in which they live and work. The proposed program includes components designed to identify the scope and nature of the problem. It also includes education components relevant to the college context meant to socialize good behavior. Finally, the program creates institutional structures designed to ensure that possible victims have an opportunity to give voice to what they experienced while protecting the rights of the men they accuse of misbehavior.

        No doubt this program will work less than perfectly – no public or private solution ever completely eliminates the problem it’s meant to address. But it fits well into the core government role of providing criminal justice protection to citizens, including the adjudicating institutions necessary for resolving conflicting claims. And it was developed and imposed by the citizens concerned with help from experts. If all of this is ideological, it strikes me as a pretty sound ideology.

        Contrast this with your “things are different today so they must be worse” attitude that treats social change, described using anecdata compiled by moral scolds, as some sort of existential threat to society. If only young people would dress and behave as you think they should, social problems would simply vanish, presumably into the mist of religious incense. This is of course not a helpful approach, since “you’re doing it wrong and I know best for you” is a poor way to get others to listen when you speak.

        But again, fair enough. Enslave yourself to your ideology even as you complain that others do the same. I’ll just have to lower my expectations with respect to the kind of dialogue I’ll find at Bacon’s Rebellion.

        RSS

        1. OUCH! and the heck of it is that RSS is dead on in his assessment.

          he said in about 100 words what others here, including myself, have incompetently tried to say in thousands of words.

          as some point – Jim is going to have to do an honest mea culpa.

          😉

          1. Just finished long visit with Big University College daughter activist. She says:

            1. Why are you looking for loopholes for rape?

            2. Don’t fall in to the trap of saying men are biologically driven to rape. They choose to rape, and they can choose not to rape.

        2. RSS said, “You complain that others depend on ideology rather than facts when developing solutions to public policy issues, but for you it’s OK.”

          No, I don’t say it’s OK to depend upon ideology rather than facts. I propose an alternative narrative inspired by a different ideological perspective from the dominant leftist perspective, but then — and this is really important — I treat it as a hypothesis. I have consistently said that our number one priority is getting the facts and determining what is, in fact, happening on our college campuses.

          Unfortunately, the Rutgers survey instrument for fact gathering backed by the White House allows for only one ideological perspective. It frames the questions and collects data in such a way as to confirm its ideological suppositions, and it fails to collect the data that might support other ways of looking at the issue.

          The differences between my approach and the orthodox left-wing approach are that (a) I acknowledge the philosophical underpinnings of my narrative while the orthodox approach regards itself as the only legitimate way of looking at the issue, (b) I cast my narrative in the form of a hypothesis to be tested by real-word data, while the orthodox narrative regards itself as received wisdom, and (c) I argue for collecting data that can confirm or reject my hypothesis (the scientific method) as opposed to confirm it only (the ideological method).

          RSS, as for this comment — “If only young people would dress and behave as you think they should, social problems would simply vanish” — that doesn’t come remotely close to capturing my position on any issue. It is a total straw man argument.

          1. re: ” inspired by a different ideological perspective from the dominant leftist perspective”

            how do you determine what is a “leftist” perspective other than labeling ones different from your own?

            you judge others Jim.. and your own judgement is informed by your own ideology.

            when you find yourself so far to one side of ideology that all others are to your left – and none to your right – what does that mean? All other perspectives are “leftist”?

  27. newmann Avatar

    Here are just a few observations from the front lines that I alluded to earlier:

    Although no one really knows exactly what percentage of students are participating, according to what I’ve gleaned, it is (very roughly) half and half, give or take. This, from students at primarily larger schools, some ivy, some not, both public and private, in the northeast, one on the west coast and here in the mid-Atlantic.

    Most agreed that free flowing alcohol (and drugs) are definitely part of the problem and they readily admit that if they were taken out of the equation or at least reduced, it certainly would stem a lot of the ‘regrettable behavior’ that has been discussed here, but not eliminate it. And yes, most agree that some frats are part of the problem and do contribute to the binge-drinking free-for-alls we hear about. Some frats (but by no means all) do have bad reputations that most students will have heard about at their respective schools. Of course the more responsible student will simply avoid them. This is as true now as it was when I was a student, as is the ever popular punch bowl…..some things never change.

    As to the how and why of those who do ‘hook-up’? I probed deeper and found that there are many factors. Too many to discuss on this blog, but I kept seeing a few common threads. Many were disparaging of their families, who were either divorced or troubled in some way – – we have a 50% divorce rate in this country and I’d say that it definitely has a bearing on the future behavior of kids. Also, those who started experimenting with recreational drugs and drinking in HS (a fairly common occurrence) often continued that behavior in college (whether they came from divorced homes or not). Again, parents play a part here. Many either gave their kids too much leeway in the ‘formative years’ or weren’t paying enough attention (for a variety of reasons) or perhaps were too strict.

    It doesn’t help that kids today live in an overtly sexualized environment, that’s thrown at them from every possible angle. Parents have to be steadfast to ensure that their teenagers are guided appropriately. Some aren’t up to the task. I do think it’s a much tougher job raising kids today than it was in my parents’ day for all of those reasons. Life is more complicated and dangerous (in some ways) and kids have way too many choices. The end result is that many aren’t coming to school with enough maturity, judgment or commonsense that one would expect even from an 18 yr old. Combine this with a loss of social taboos, and you have the end result you see today. That being said, I would add that risky and irresponsible behavior of any sort needs to be met with consequences – something that hopefully most parents should have taught their kids all along, but with a lot of helicopter or absentee or otherwise clueless parents perhaps didn’t and aren’t. But that of course is only part of the problem.

    At the large universities that many students attend (including my own) it should be noted that many ethnic minorities don’t play the game of hooking-up. This is all highly subjective of course, but many foreign-born or first-generation American students have simply been brought up with a different (read: a more traditional) set of values which earlier American generations experienced: parents are respected and families are close, kids are expected to do well in school, not indulge in drugs or overindulge in alcohol (if at all) and many seem to have a certain level of maturity and thus are less irresponsible than many kids are today. Obviously there are always many exceptions, but it appears to be true across the country with those I’ve spoken with and or have heard of. I would add that the many foreign students attending US universities too have an entirely different perspective from many of their fellow American peers who play the ‘hook-up game’. In Europe the lifestyle of students appears to require less coddling and they seem to take their studies a lot more seriously. Perhaps it’s because it’s more difficult to gain admission, or that there are fewer distractions. One simply doesn’t see the same level of deviant behavior that is common today at US colleges. A side note: recently, a group of exchange students attending local high schools in my community spoke publicly about the differences between schools in their countries (mostly European) and American schools. Interestingly, their comments reflect the same differences I’ve mentioned above between first-generation American students and their non-immigrant American peers. They also think American students take a lot for granted, are spoiled, have too many choices, just for starters. I tend to agree with all of that.

    1. re: ” Interestingly, their comments reflect the same differences I’ve mentioned above between first-generation American students and their non-immigrant American peers. They also think American students take a lot for granted, are spoiled, have too many choices, just for starters. I tend to agree with all of that.”

      Amen.

      throw in big time sports and kids (and parents) willing to go into deep debt rather than work to help pay for their schooling – when they are not in class – and we have a “culture” of kids with a lot of time on their hands screwing around when they’d be better off waiting tables and making better use of their time that slurping down punch and raising hell.

      and yes – the kids who come from less affluent homes – tend to view the purpose of college – very differently than the ones who come without a concern for money.

      the term “work your way through college” has disappeared from our American lexicon…. and has been replaced with things like “a culture of…”

      I now know young folks who have been through College that NEVER had a job from high school until they graduated from college – then could not find a job – and thousands of dollars in debt!

      I will assert that this is not good. Part of one’s education is learning to work for and with others – and all that goes with it.. and especially so at the lower level jobs entry-level jobs where real life is encountered… and has to be dealt with.

      why do kids NOT do these things these days ? Parents….

      Kids who go to school and have jobs outside of class have a LOT less time to get themselves into the foolish pursuits of the “prep” guys and gals. They cannot afford to get themselves liquored up and not report for work the next day…. if they are going to be able to get a good employment reference later when they need it.

      how’s that for a “moralistic” lecture?

      you want to find the real enemy in all of this ? Consult Mr. Pogo –

      http://craigcrawford.com/wp-content/uploads/Pogo-We-have-met-800wi.jpg

      It’s not like we don’t have a problem now days with finding real work even with a college education.

      I know a gal – in College – who spends her spare time as a student teacher in an elementary school. She gets no pay but she gets exceptionally valuable experience and is pretty much guaranteed a job when she graduates.

      compare that to a lot of kids now days in college who don’t work and don’t have a clue what they are going to do when they graduate – with thousands of dollars in debt.

      it’s not like kids can’t get jobs in college and not go into debt. It’s a choice and parents play a role in those choices… the first thing they learn is that you have to EARN your way to success… not have someone else pave the way for you.

      there are ALWAYS going to be the kids who squander their opportunities. The job of a parent is to ensure your kid knows that there are opportunities – and we pass them up all the time if we are screwing around instead of looking for them.

      1. Larry, You sound like a reactionary old carmudgeon bemoaning the lack of values in the younger generation — just like Reed and me!

        1. and you thought I was just another “leftist”!

  28. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Newmann –

    Thank you for your comments today at 3:42. Those comments borne of your experience track with the information that I have gleaned through my reading on the subject.

    What concerns me most is providing 1st and 2nd year undergraduate students with the education and counseling they need to make informed and intelligent judgements on their lifestyles at college without undue pressure from special interest groups pushing certain ideologies on those students, creating a coercive culture that a portion of every incoming class for whatever reason are dawn into without full knowledge of the risk and a fair chance at making an informed free choice. And also creating a culture that allows them to exit the scene should they want to without becoming social exiles.

    This subject has been discussed at length elsewhere, including for example, the 3 books I mentioned earlier.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Newmann –

      You highlight the influence of the family angle in your post. That triggered my recall of two other articles that would seem to support your contentions:

      http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/06/yesallwomenandchildren-are-safer-within-intact-marriages/

      http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/12/its-not-just-the-economy-devastating-working-class-families/

      1. newmann Avatar

        RF3 — Obviously what I was able to glean is anecdotal, unscientific, but nonetheless revealing.

        IMHO in addition to the ‘family angle’ some individuals have certain personality traits that might make them more or less susceptible to risky behavior, ie having an ‘addictive personality’ is just one. Those who do are at potential risk for all sorts of deviant behavior – whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, food, work, co-dependency, even exercise, etc. according to experts. It is my understanding that as much as 15% of the general population are characterized as such. How such individuals may react given certain social circumstances though are again entirely subjective. However, in some small measure it probably could account for yet another reason for such behavior.

  29. newmann Avatar

    “throw in big time sports and kids (and parents) willing to go into deep debt rather than work to help pay for their schooling – when they are not in class – and we have a “culture” of kids with a lot of time on their hands”

    An obsession with sports in HS and college was actually the most significant difference mentioned by the exchange students. I didn’t orig. include it in my post because it wasn’t germane to the topic at hand. In fact European schools simply don’t integrate sports programs into their schools as we do. Sports at secondary schools and colleges there are available on a much more casual basis and thus don’t interfere with studies. I do think that if US schools put only a fraction of the amount of time and energy into improving their math and science programs than they do into sports programs, we wouldn’t be routinely ranked well behind students from Europe and Asia. A sentiment I understand that is slowing gaining ground in the US. But again, that is a topic for another blog post.

    ps One should keep in mind that these exchange students are staying in typical moderately affluent suburban communities. However, I think their opinions might be more or less the same if they lived in a somewhat less affluent or geographical setting.

  30. With all due respect, KVDavis, your daughter’s comments indicate that she doesn’t understand the debate that’s actually taking place.

    1. Why are you looking for loopholes for rape?

    Nobody’s looking for “loopholes” for rape. The commenters on this blog who dissent against against campus orthodoxy have wives, sisters, daughters and/or nieces whom they love dearly and don’t want to see raped. We all want to see rapists convicted and thrown into jail.

    2. Don’t fall in to the trap of saying men are biologically driven to rape. They choose to rape, and they can choose not to rape.

    I can’t think of anyone on this blog who thinks that men are biologically driven to rape. Men are biologically driven to seek sex, but that’s very, very different.

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