Taxing the Money That Saved Virginia Jobs

By Steve Haner

Concern that Virginia is seeking to tax federal pandemic relief grants to Virginia businesses – grants which kept Virginians employed — is putting a normally routine tax administration bill in jeopardy.

The House Finance Committee on Monday approved the annual bill to bring Virginia tax law into conformity with the Internal Revenue Code effective December 31, 2020. But eight of 22 committee members voted no, and a similar division in the full House would kill the bill. The bill needs to go into effect immediately to be reflected on tax returns now being prepared, but that requires an 80% super majority.

The Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy, joined by the National Federation of Independent Business and the Virginia Society of Certified Public Accounts, opposed one section of the bill in committee testimony (watch with the link). While Congress told businesses with PPP loans that they can deduct the wages and salaries they maintained to earn forgiveness of the loans, Virginia wants to disallow those costs as a deduction.

That effectively taxes the forgiven loan. Consider the following simple example.

Acme Inc. struggled through the pandemic with $200,000 in sales and $200,000 in operating expenses. On that basis alone, it would show zero profit for 2020 and thus owe no federal or state income tax.

Add in a $100,000 PPP loan and this is how things change:  Acme spends the money as Congress intended, mainly keeping its payroll intact.  The PPP loan is not treated as income; that is not in dispute. But this time when Acme calculates its state taxable income, it can only deduct $100,000 of its costs against its $200,000 in sales revenue. That leaves a $100,000 taxable profit on its state return.

Is the resulting tax on the loan or on the profit that resulted from the loan? It makes no difference. There would be no tax if there had been no loan. Without the loan, there might well be no more company.

The tax policy bill will be considered by the full House of Delegates later this week. Here is the text as it stands and here is the bill history so far. A similar Senate bill is pending.

When the PPP program was established last spring in the COVID relief CARES Act, it was clear that if a business took the loan and maintained its payroll and operations, the loan would be forgiven. It was also clear that the forgiven loan would not be considered taxable income. But that bill was silent on the tax treatment of the continuing company operating expenses that removed the need to repay the loan, dollar for dollar.

In its interpretation of the CARES Act last year, the U.S. Treasury ruled the expenses could not be deducted. But in December, in the latest round of COVID relief legislation, Congress reversed the Treasury. The December law turned the loans, if used as intended to keep the business payroll intact, into tax-free grants. Fail to allow the deductions on state returns, and in Virginia they become taxable income again.

Secretary Layne told the committee Monday that it wouldn’t be fair to allow these deductions for the companies that received PPP loans since not every company got one. “This would be a different analysis if everybody had gotten PPP loans,” he said. He went on to note that nationally about 50% of the loans went to five percent of companies, often quite large.

Companies that didn’t get PPP loans often got bank loans, if they could, to keep the doors open, he said. But apparently about 113,000 Virginia business entities did get PPP loans, so this policy debate will have a major impact on some of them.

Layne also noted that the state and local programs providing similar business recovery grants, usually much smaller, will expect the recipients to treat those grants as income. If so, that disparity could be fixed by doing for them what Congress did for the PPP funds.

The state projects that if the PPP-related costs can also be deducted in full, its income tax collections will be reduced $340 to $500 million over two years. That tells you how much money flowed in under PPP to keep Virginia businesses alive and staffed.

“I would agree it was always (Congress’s) intent to allow deductibility,” said Delegate Joseph McNamara, R-Salem, who had offered his own bill on the PPP tax issues and another bill to return Virginia to rolling conformity. Both were tabled after the administration bill, sponsored by Delegate Vivian Watts, D-Annandale, advanced 14-8.  If all legislators are present later this week, 21 votes in the full House defeat it.

A year ago, pre-pandemic, PPP was not even on anybody’s radar screen. The federal government created it to rescue businesses in a sudden deep recession, with much of the problem caused by the government’s own restrictions and lockdowns. Virginia now wants to tax that rescue money when Congress does not?  The Thomas Jefferson Institute is opposed to that.

Originally published this morning by the Thomas Jefferson Institute of Public Policy. 


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86 responses to “Taxing the Money That Saved Virginia Jobs”

  1. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    I interrupt the James Sherlock Channel to bring you something else. If you do open the YouTube snippet of the testimony, you can listen to Nicole Riley of the NFIB and skip me. But if you do move on to that, that may be the first time I’ve worn a tie since attending the funeral home visitation for a friend back in the summer….But I also had on jeans. First time I’ve testified to a GA committee in jeans…:)

    The video gives you a glimpse of the New Covid General Assembly…

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Very cool!

      question: is there an issue with receiving loans for something that you are also going to claim as an expense?

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Coulda done by Zoom and skipped the jeans… but sit real close to the camera, real close, and don’t stand up.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar

    yes, ask Jeffrey Toobin about that.

  3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    I mentioned that my company took the PPP. Forgot that was HQ. they’re in PA. Here’s what they are doing…

    Pennsylvania Department of Revenue position

    Pennsylvania will likely treat the forgiven portion of the PPP loan as taxable income and therefore treat the related expenses as deductible, creating a net-zero effect. This tax treatment is less beneficial if the forgiven PPP loan is tax deductible.

    However, tax rates at the state level are significantly less than the federal and would create a smaller tax burden.

    Guess we get to shell out some tax bucks.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Yes, its is only 6% in VA, but look what it adds up to! And in testimony underway now in the Senate Layne is upping the number, inching it up….typing on a blog while monitoring a committee. Ah, technology….

      I’m told that NC and SC have made it clear they recognize the exclusion AND the deductions, Hawaii is doing what Northam/Layne are recommending. I bet that PA guidance was drafted BEFORE the Dec. 27 congressional acts.

      Janet Howell just announced she will carry her version of this over a week. The drumbeat on this issue will grow over time. They should just take that one amendment and move on…

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        OTOH, PA is only 3%.

  4. Steve raises a legitimate point. But it strikes me that Layne does, too. Both are valid. The trick is figuring out which outweighs the other.

    This kind of dilemma seems inevitable when government starts throwing money around.

  5. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    To go back to Larry’s question, a loan is not considered income. But if that loan is forgiven, then it normally gets recognized as income. These are forgiven loans technically.

    A business using loaned money would be able to deduct its interest and other carrying costs on the loan, but not the principal payments. There is where I strongly disagree with Layne, it should not be compared to Business As Usual. Congress has sent relief money intending for it to flow in tax free, and Virginia is engaging in classic skim, taking “a piece of the action.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Well, taxes are supposed to be a “piece of the action”. Technically when a $ changes hands Uncle Sugar and Aunt Ginnie want a piece. Deductions and exemptions are gratis.

  6. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Now that Biden wants amnesty for all the illegal immigrants without any improvements in border security, the Democrats have a lot of more expensive social programs to fund.

    Virginia’s ability to attract businesses not dependent on the federal trough diminishes by the day.

  7. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    I interrupt the James Sherlock Channel to bring you something else. If you do open the YouTube snippet of the testimony, you can listen to Nicole Riley of the NFIB and skip me. But if you do move on to that, that may be the first time I’ve worn a tie since attending the funeral home visitation for a friend back in the summer….But I also had on jeans. First time I’ve testified to a GA committee in jeans…:)

    The video gives you a glimpse of the New Covid General Assembly…

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Very cool!

      question: is there an issue with receiving loans for something that you are also going to claim as an expense?

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Coulda done by Zoom and skipped the jeans… but sit real close to the camera, real close, and don’t stand up.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar

    yes, ask Jeffrey Toobin about that.

  9. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    I mentioned that my company took the PPP. Forgot that was HQ. they’re in PA. Here’s what they are doing…

    Pennsylvania Department of Revenue position

    Pennsylvania will likely treat the forgiven portion of the PPP loan as taxable income and therefore treat the related expenses as deductible, creating a net-zero effect. This tax treatment is less beneficial if the forgiven PPP loan is tax deductible.

    However, tax rates at the state level are significantly less than the federal and would create a smaller tax burden.

    Guess we get to shell out some tax bucks.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Yes, its is only 6% in VA, but look what it adds up to! And in testimony underway now in the Senate Layne is upping the number, inching it up….typing on a blog while monitoring a committee. Ah, technology….

      I’m told that NC and SC have made it clear they recognize the exclusion AND the deductions, Hawaii is doing what Northam/Layne are recommending. I bet that PA guidance was drafted BEFORE the Dec. 27 congressional acts.

      Janet Howell just announced she will carry her version of this over a week. The drumbeat on this issue will grow over time. They should just take that one amendment and move on…

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        OTOH, PA is only 3%.

  10. Steve raises a legitimate point. But it strikes me that Layne does, too. Both are valid. The trick is figuring out which outweighs the other.

    This kind of dilemma seems inevitable when government starts throwing money around.

  11. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    To go back to Larry’s question, a loan is not considered income. But if that loan is forgiven, then it normally gets recognized as income. These are forgiven loans technically.

    A business using loaned money would be able to deduct its interest and other carrying costs on the loan, but not the principal payments. There is where I strongly disagree with Layne, it should not be compared to Business As Usual. Congress has sent relief money intending for it to flow in tax free, and Virginia is engaging in classic skim, taking “a piece of the action.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Well, taxes are supposed to be a “piece of the action”. Technically when a $ changes hands Uncle Sugar and Aunt Ginnie want a piece. Deductions and exemptions are gratis.

  12. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Now that Biden wants amnesty for all the illegal immigrants without any improvements in border security, the Democrats have a lot of more expensive social programs to fund.

    Virginia’s ability to attract businesses not dependent on the federal trough diminishes by the day.

  13. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
    Lawrence Hincker

    Fundamentally, Layne wants to keep tax money that exists solely because of the PPP loan program. Steve’s point remains the same – without the PPP monies, the firms likely would have folded and they state would not even have collected the taxes because there would have been no companies to tax.

    More back door stealth tax increases just like that last discussion on conformity. But this is worse.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It can get worse. In the Senate Finance discussion today there were hints that troubled senators might want to make this even more complicated – picking which types of businesses do get the deductions and which do not. That type of cherry picking winners and losers would really put up a red flag on this state as a silly place.

      1. idiocracy Avatar

        Virginia: All the fruits, nuts and flakes, with none of the jobs! *

        * of California

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I agree that picking who gets the deductions would quickly become a mess.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The justification for a deduction is that some of your revenue had to be used to pay for an operating cost and, thus, was not profit, so that bit of revenue should not be taxed, i.e. deducted from your total. But, in the case of these PPP loans, the money used to pay the expenses did not come out of your revenue, rather it came from money you got from the feds. Therefore, there goes the justification for deducting those expenses. One analogy is that I can’t deduct the entire cost of a medical procedure if insurance paid for some of the cost.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Geeze, Dick… there you’ve gone and exploded the dang issue!

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        I gave the analogy of LTC insurance. It’s quite a good fit since after a certain per diem amount, $400/day (I think), the LTC benefit is considered income and is taxable.

        LTC insurance is a rip. One of you clever Baconites needs to do a write up on how the SCC considers it to be medical insurance since it is just a really crummy annuity with a health related trigger and a business model that depends on you getting tired of paying premiums.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          or if you keep it and need it, gotta hire a lawyer to get it.

        2. ScottAOlson Avatar
          ScottAOlson

          All expenses reimbursed by LTC insurance policies are tax-free. This has been the law since 1997. It doesn’t matter how much the long-term care policy pays each month. 100% of the reimbursed expenses are income-tax-free.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            You best check the tax codes. Expenses covered by LTC are not deductible. Excess LTC is not taxable up to $400 per day.

            Suppose expense is $200 per day, LTC is $500 per day. Then $200 per day pays expenses and is a wash. $200 per day is tax free benefit and $100 is taxable income.

            https://www.comfortltc.com/taxguide.html

            If expenses were $450 then it’s not a wash. The first $400 are. The $100 excess benefit is taxable income but the $50 of expenses are deductible.

      3. idiocracy Avatar

        ” One analogy is that I can’t deduct the entire cost of a medical procedure if insurance paid for some of the cost.”

        The analogy breaks down because you aren’t taxed for the “x” dollars that the insurance company paid.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          Exactly. The company is not taxed for the forgiven PPP money.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Is it always called a loan? It isn’t really converted to a “grant” in the contract language is it? It’s just a forgiven loan, right?

            Then, it’s income.

            Check the tax code handling of gifts and loans to family members some time. Make too many gifts on a regular basis and the IRS can declare it an income. Same with “emergency” interest-free loans. If they don’t like the loan period, you may be forced to pay taxes on the interest you should have charged.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            for individuals who got a consumer loan “forgiven” , it’s booked as income… and usually a nasty suprise at tax time.

  14. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
    Lawrence Hincker

    Fundamentally, Layne wants to keep tax money that exists solely because of the PPP loan program. Steve’s point remains the same – without the PPP monies, the firms likely would have folded and they state would not even have collected the taxes because there would have been no companies to tax.

    More back door stealth tax increases just like that last discussion on conformity. But this is worse.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It can get worse. In the Senate Finance discussion today there were hints that troubled senators might want to make this even more complicated – picking which types of businesses do get the deductions and which do not. That type of cherry picking winners and losers would really put up a red flag on this state as a silly place.

      1. idiocracy Avatar

        Virginia: All the fruits, nuts and flakes, with none of the jobs! *

        * of California

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I agree that picking who gets the deductions would quickly become a mess.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The justification for a deduction is that some of your revenue had to be used to pay for an operating cost and, thus, was not profit, so that bit of revenue should not be taxed, i.e. deducted from your total. But, in the case of these PPP loans, the money used to pay the expenses did not come out of your revenue, rather it came from money you got from the feds. Therefore, there goes the justification for deducting those expenses. One analogy is that I can’t deduct the entire cost of a medical procedure if insurance paid for some of the cost.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Geeze, Dick… there you’ve gone and exploded the dang issue!

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        I gave the analogy of LTC insurance. It’s quite a good fit since after a certain per diem amount, $400/day (I think), the LTC benefit is considered income and is taxable.

        LTC insurance is a rip. One of you clever Baconites needs to do a write up on how the SCC considers it to be medical insurance since it is just a really crummy annuity with a health related trigger and a business model that depends on you getting tired of paying premiums.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          or if you keep it and need it, gotta hire a lawyer to get it.

        2. ScottAOlson Avatar
          ScottAOlson

          All expenses reimbursed by LTC insurance policies are tax-free. This has been the law since 1997. It doesn’t matter how much the long-term care policy pays each month. 100% of the reimbursed expenses are income-tax-free.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            You best check the tax codes. Expenses covered by LTC are not deductible. Excess LTC is not taxable up to $400 per day.

            Suppose expense is $200 per day, LTC is $500 per day. Then $200 per day pays expenses and is a wash. $200 per day is tax free benefit and $100 is taxable income.

            https://www.comfortltc.com/taxguide.html

            If expenses were $450 then it’s not a wash. The first $400 are. The $100 excess benefit is taxable income but the $50 of expenses are deductible.

      3. idiocracy Avatar

        ” One analogy is that I can’t deduct the entire cost of a medical procedure if insurance paid for some of the cost.”

        The analogy breaks down because you aren’t taxed for the “x” dollars that the insurance company paid.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          Exactly. The company is not taxed for the forgiven PPP money.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Is it always called a loan? It isn’t really converted to a “grant” in the contract language is it? It’s just a forgiven loan, right?

            Then, it’s income.

            Check the tax code handling of gifts and loans to family members some time. Make too many gifts on a regular basis and the IRS can declare it an income. Same with “emergency” interest-free loans. If they don’t like the loan period, you may be forced to pay taxes on the interest you should have charged.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            for individuals who got a consumer loan “forgiven” , it’s booked as income… and usually a nasty suprise at tax time.

  15. ScottAOlson Avatar
    ScottAOlson

    All reimbursed LTC Insurance benefits are tax-free. My mother-in-law’s policy was paying over $6,500 a month for her care. It was 100% tax-free.

  16. ScottAOlson Avatar
    ScottAOlson

    All reimbursed LTC Insurance benefits are tax-free. My mother-in-law’s policy was paying over $6,500 a month for her care. It was 100% tax-free.

  17. ScottAOlson Avatar
    ScottAOlson

    Thanks, Nancy, for clarifying your original post. One thing you might want to point out is that 100% of REIMBURSED LTC insurance benefits is tax-free. For example, if my policy pays $1,000 per day and my care costs $1,000 per day, I pay zero tax on the LTC insurance benefits.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      LTC is sorta like whole life insurance or various kinds of annuities and other tax advantaged savings programs.

      It seems to allow premiums that are tax deductible (to a limit, but not “pretax”/untaxed, and benefits that are not taxable as long as they are only less than or equal to reimbursed costs.

      Most IRAs get taxed once either front or back.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Ah, the Traditional IRA Tax Bomb… at age 72 mine explodes. I can hardly wait. Uncle Sugar gonna LOVE ❤️ me.

        What’s scary is that people near or barely in retirement are actually converting to Roth IRAs. This is the equivalent of lighting a 3-second fuse and counting to 10 before throwing.

      2. ScottAOlson Avatar
        ScottAOlson

        You’re correct that LTC insurance has tax-deductible premiums. You’re correct that the LTC insurance benefits are tax-free (except in a few, very rare, exceptions). However, long-term care insurance is nothing like whole life insurance and nothing like annuities. If you’re looking for an insurance analogy, long-term care insurance is more like homeowner’s insurance than any other type of insurance.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          long term care than pays a death benefit?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            If you end up in LTC and you don’t have life insurance or LTC or other investments – they get your house/property, right – but maybe after the spouse is gone?

            Father-in-law has LTC and had to get a lawyer for them to pay out for home care… Still is having to supplement that with his IRAs.

          2. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            LTG: “Father-in-law has LTC and had to get a lawyer for them to pay out for home care… Still is having to supplement that with his IRAs.”

            SAO: When my mother-in-law needed to use her policy, the home care agency filed the claim for her. It was approved in only 3 weeks. We didn’t have to do anything other than give the policy to the home care agency owner and sign a HIPAA form for him to handle the rest.

            My mother-in-law’s policy has a very high daily benefit (over $300/day for facility care and over $225/day for care at home). Because of that she hasn’t had to supplement the benefits at all. Her policy has covered the full cost of each day of care (once she satisfied her 90 day elimination period.)

            She’s already been receiving benefits from her policy for 3.5 years and she still has another 3 to 4 years of benefits remaining in the policy.

          3. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            Long-term care insurance usually does NOT pay a death benefit. You might be confusing long-term care insurance with a life insurance policy that has an “LTC rider”.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            was looking at this:

            https://www.investopedia.com/insurance/paying-longterm-care-how-its-changing/

            various options for planning for LTC

            and the “hybrid” option.

          5. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            The cash value life insurance policies that pay a death benefit are usually not the best choice. You can buy a lot more long-term care coverage for a lot less money if you just get “straight” long-term care insurance. AARP wrote an article about that here:

            https://www.aarp.org/caregiving/financial-legal/info-2018/long-term-care-insurance-fd.html

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            they do talk about the Hybrid LTC… which seems to be both a long term care and life insurance.

          7. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Basic problem with LTC
            Most come with a 180 day deductible. Means you have to wait 180 days. Most men die within 180 of entry into nursing/Az care.
            The max payout is six years. Most women and the few men die in 3 years.
            Then most don’t make it to LTC to begin with.

            So, you need 80K income to just not need it at all. If you make less than 80K, you only need the difference in benefit, or sufficient savings (not investments) to cover the difference.

          8. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            N_N: “Basic problem with LTC. Most come with a 180 day deductible. Means you have to wait 180 days.”
            SAO: I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, Nancy, but 91% of the people who buy LTC insurance choose a 90-day elimination period. That’s what my mother-in-law had on her policy.
            https://brokerworldmag.com/2020-milliman-long-term-care-insurance-survey/

            N_N: “So, you need 80K income to just not need it at all.”
            SAO: That strategy might work if someone’s single. It’s a terrible strategy for someone who is married. Also LTCi can save money on taxes. Since my mother-in-law owned LTC insurance we did not have to sell her rental properties. That saved her about $100,000 in capital gains taxes.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar

            seems like if you did have sufficient term life insurance and kept it in force… at the end – the proceeds go to pay for the LTC, no?

          10. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            You’re talking early cashout? Yeah, or perhaps the facility will accept the policy benefit in exchange? Yeah, maybe.

            You should expect that you mightn’t need it, but your wife might.

            The problem arises when one needs LTC and the other has to maintain a separate life back at the house. In that case, home care may be the only option.

          11. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Separated years in time and States in distance, my parents and the wife’s parents chose the same LTC company — American Express. Yeah, good old AMEX sold LTC for awhile. The policies eventually wound up with GenWorth but when it came to invoking the policies, that was all handled by the LTC facility.

            We just gave them the policy number. For my mother, they waived the deductible but I cannot tell you why. Both of the fathers died within a month of submitting papers.

            The LTC facility for my mother was part of the retirement village the parents bought into decades before. Wife’s mom was different. We had to prove income and resoures sufficient to cover her rent.

            I suspect that, yes, you might have to put up collateral for entry if you cannot show enough solvency.

            Scott, yes, someplace I do mention the separate living. That’s the problem. For assisted living, with both sharing an apartment, it’s double. Yikes.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Might be, been a long time since I did a mother/mother-in-law’s taxes.

      The discussion here was how to deal with the PPP loans. Just do it like LTC. If the loan covered legitimate expenses, fine, it’s a wash. Excess loan that is forgiven tax as income and uncovered expenses remain deductible.

  18. ScottAOlson Avatar
    ScottAOlson

    Thanks, Nancy, for clarifying your original post. One thing you might want to point out is that 100% of REIMBURSED LTC insurance benefits is tax-free. For example, if my policy pays $1,000 per day and my care costs $1,000 per day, I pay zero tax on the LTC insurance benefits.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      LTC is sorta like whole life insurance or various kinds of annuities and other tax advantaged savings programs.

      It seems to allow premiums that are tax deductible (to a limit, but not “pretax”/untaxed, and benefits that are not taxable as long as they are only less than or equal to reimbursed costs.

      Most IRAs get taxed once either front or back.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Ah, the Traditional IRA Tax Bomb… at age 72 mine explodes. I can hardly wait. Uncle Sugar gonna LOVE ❤️ me.

        What’s scary is that people near or barely in retirement are actually converting to Roth IRAs. This is the equivalent of lighting a 3-second fuse and counting to 10 before throwing.

      2. ScottAOlson Avatar
        ScottAOlson

        You’re correct that LTC insurance has tax-deductible premiums. You’re correct that the LTC insurance benefits are tax-free (except in a few, very rare, exceptions). However, long-term care insurance is nothing like whole life insurance and nothing like annuities. If you’re looking for an insurance analogy, long-term care insurance is more like homeowner’s insurance than any other type of insurance.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          long term care than pays a death benefit?

          1. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            Long-term care insurance usually does NOT pay a death benefit. You might be confusing long-term care insurance with a life insurance policy that has an “LTC rider”.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            was looking at this:

            https://www.investopedia.com/insurance/paying-longterm-care-how-its-changing/

            various options for planning for LTC

            and the “hybrid” option.

          3. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            The cash value life insurance policies that pay a death benefit are usually not the best choice. You can buy a lot more long-term care coverage for a lot less money if you just get “straight” long-term care insurance. AARP wrote an article about that here:

            https://www.aarp.org/caregiving/financial-legal/info-2018/long-term-care-insurance-fd.html

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            they do talk about the Hybrid LTC… which seems to be both a long term care and life insurance.

          5. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Basic problem with LTC
            Most come with a 180 day deductible. Means you have to wait 180 days. Most men die within 180 of entry into nursing/Az care.
            The max payout is six years. Most women and the few men die in 3 years.
            Then most don’t make it to LTC to begin with.

            So, you need 80K income to just not need it at all. If you make less than 80K, you only need the difference in benefit, or sufficient savings (not investments) to cover the difference.

          6. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            N_N: “Basic problem with LTC. Most come with a 180 day deductible. Means you have to wait 180 days.”
            SAO: I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, Nancy, but 91% of the people who buy LTC insurance choose a 90-day elimination period. That’s what my mother-in-law had on her policy.
            https://brokerworldmag.com/2020-milliman-long-term-care-insurance-survey/

            N_N: “So, you need 80K income to just not need it at all.”
            SAO: That strategy might work if someone’s single. It’s a terrible strategy for someone who is married. Also LTCi can save money on taxes. Since my mother-in-law owned LTC insurance we did not have to sell her rental properties. That saved her about $100,000 in capital gains taxes.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            seems like if you did have sufficient term life insurance and kept it in force… at the end – the proceeds go to pay for the LTC, no?

          8. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            You’re talking early cashout? Yeah, or perhaps the facility will accept the policy benefit in exchange? Yeah, maybe.

            You should expect that you mightn’t need it, but your wife might.

            The problem arises when one needs LTC and the other has to maintain a separate life back at the house. In that case, home care may be the only option.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar

            If you end up in LTC and you don’t have life insurance or LTC or other investments – they get your house/property, right – but maybe after the spouse is gone?

            Father-in-law has LTC and had to get a lawyer for them to pay out for home care… Still is having to supplement that with his IRAs.

          10. ScottAOlson Avatar
            ScottAOlson

            LTG: “Father-in-law has LTC and had to get a lawyer for them to pay out for home care… Still is having to supplement that with his IRAs.”

            SAO: When my mother-in-law needed to use her policy, the home care agency filed the claim for her. It was approved in only 3 weeks. We didn’t have to do anything other than give the policy to the home care agency owner and sign a HIPAA form for him to handle the rest.

            My mother-in-law’s policy has a very high daily benefit (over $300/day for facility care and over $225/day for care at home). Because of that she hasn’t had to supplement the benefits at all. Her policy has covered the full cost of each day of care (once she satisfied her 90 day elimination period.)

            She’s already been receiving benefits from her policy for 3.5 years and she still has another 3 to 4 years of benefits remaining in the policy.

          11. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Separated years in time and States in distance, my parents and the wife’s parents chose the same LTC company — American Express. Yeah, good old AMEX sold LTC for awhile. The policies eventually wound up with GenWorth but when it came to invoking the policies, that was all handled by the LTC facility.

            We just gave them the policy number. For my mother, they waived the deductible but I cannot tell you why. Both of the fathers died within a month of submitting papers.

            The LTC facility for my mother was part of the retirement village the parents bought into decades before. Wife’s mom was different. We had to prove income and resoures sufficient to cover her rent.

            I suspect that, yes, you might have to put up collateral for entry if you cannot show enough solvency.

            Scott, yes, someplace I do mention the separate living. That’s the problem. For assisted living, with both sharing an apartment, it’s double. Yikes.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Might be, been a long time since I did a mother/mother-in-law’s taxes.

      The discussion here was how to deal with the PPP loans. Just do it like LTC. If the loan covered legitimate expenses, fine, it’s a wash. Excess loan that is forgiven tax as income and uncovered expenses remain deductible.

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