Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Systemic Racism? What’s That?

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by

Peter Galuszka
in , , , , , , , ,

By Peter Galuszka

At Bacon’s Rebellion there’s a constant, grating mantra debunking the concept that the U.S. has a serious problem with “Institutional” or “Systemic” Racism.

Slavery? Jim Crow? Irrelevant! We’re treated to commentary after commentary that Blacks just need to try harder. They are lazy. They do not support family values. They get too much wasted money in school spending and health care. Their constant abuse by law enforcement is imaginary. Black Lives Matters is a hateful, racist movement. BLM jeopardizes our values. Students interested in the movement were not “indoctrinated” enough. It’s bad enough if it comes up in public schools, but let BLM come up at a toney private institution in a wealthy, mostly White suburb, then it is a blood libel against every private school headmaster in the country.

For a partial list of blog postings with ideas, please see the URLs at the end of this column.

Ok. So what? Well, this morning I saw a small story in The Washington Post that shocked me since it went right to the heart of Institutional and/or Systemic Racism. If you still don’t believe it exists, read on.

One recent July day, two young African-American mothers, India Johnson, 26, and Yasmeen Winston, 25, decided to make an outing of it. They packed up their very young children in a car and drove them to Washington Mall on Constitution Avenue so the kids could splash in a water fountain and take a walk.

The children were in the back seat listening to “the Mother Goose Club” on the car speaker system.

Then, without warning, a U.S. Secret Service cruiser raced up and struck their left front bumper. Jolted and upset, the children began to cry.

A man jumped out and pointed a rifle at them, yelling them to get out of the car with their hands up. Ms. Johnson and Ms. Winston complied, were handcuffed and spent the next hour dealing with the cops while their babies wailed. The law enforcement officers did not wear COVID masks.

The Secret Service, the women said, told them they were on the lookout for two Black men driving a stolen car. That seemed strange because they are both Black women and had young children with them (not an uncommon thing for young women of whatever race). Neither woman had reported a stolen car.

They were let go but filed a complaint with the Secret Service which has yet to apologize or offer any more explanations or details.

So, if you read yet another, snarky, “data” laden Bacons Rebellion’s post about how systemic racism is totally made up, please think of these two women and their children.

Here’s that list with my own headlines:

Institutional Racism? What’s That?

https://www.baconsrebellion.com/none-dare-call-this-institutional-racism/

Concerns of Black Parents, Students, Alumni Are Nothing More Than Libel

https://www.baconsrebellion.com/cancel-one-more-good-man/

Is There a Problem?

https://www.baconsrebellion.com/failing-diversity-grades-for-virginia-public-colleges/

How Do You Know Those Guys in Hawaiian Shirts and the Evil Looking Rifles Are Bad Guys?

https://www.baconsrebellion.com/about-those-boogaloo-boys/

No Racism Here

https://www.baconsrebellion.com/wheres-the-oppression-please-show-me-the-oppression/

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139 responses to “Systemic Racism? What’s That?”

  1. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Where is the WaPo reference article?

    This seem to get into the issue of law enforcement strategy, tactics and attitudes. And it also gets into the fact, besides local cops, we have many other armed, law enforcement agencies including Secret Service, US Park service rangers, state park service rangers, school security, store security, etc etc. Some of the problems I have had come from these other agencies, and the lawyers/judges tend to be clueless about the special laws and harsh penalties in these side arenas.

    While I easily accept minorities are particularly vulnerable to mistreatment, it is not just minorities that face the risk of a really bad day. I have a few bad days myself. That’s part of why I can agree/empathize with the issue.

  2. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Where is the WaPo reference article?

    This seem to get into the issue of law enforcement strategy, tactics and attitudes. And it also gets into the fact, besides local cops, we have many other armed, law enforcement agencies including Secret Service, US Park service rangers, state park service rangers, school security, store security, etc etc. Some of the problems I have had come from these other agencies, and the lawyers/judges tend to be clueless about the special laws and harsh penalties in these side arenas.

    While I easily accept minorities are particularly vulnerable to mistreatment, it is not just minorities that face the risk of a really bad day. I have a few bad days myself. That’s part of why I can agree/empathize with the issue.

  3. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Wow, Peter. There is a world of difference between what is written on Bacon’s Rebellion and how you perceive it. I know you well enough to know that you’re not deliberately falsifying what others and I have written. The question is how you process what is written, and warp it to conform with your cognitive framework for understanding the world. Whatever is going on inside your head, it makes an honest dialogue very difficult.

    No one on this blog has ever written, “Blacks just need to try harder.”

    No one on this blog has ever written, “Blacks are lazy.”

    While I have frequently alluded to the prevalence of out-of-wedlock births and households with absentee fathers among blacks, a phenomenon which is increasing among whites as well, no one has ever said, “Blacks do not support family values.”

    I have said (and documented) that there is no racial inequity in educational spending in Virginia public schools, and in any case, there is little correlation between spending and educational achievement. I have suggested that inner-city school systems run by Democrats and progressives waste a lot of money. But no one has ever said, “[Blacks] get too much wasted money in school spending and health care.”

    While I have emphasized that the number of blacks killed by policemen in Virginia is very small and exceed the number of whites killed by policemen, and I have argued that the prevalence of police non-lethal brutality is exaggerated, I have never said, “Their constant abuse by law enforcement is imaginary.” (I don’t recall off-hand anyone else making that claim either.)

    Where you get the rest of this stuff is utterly beyond me — “Students interested [in Black Lives Matter] were not ‘indoctrinated’ enough. It’s bad enough if it comes up in public schools, but let BLM come up at a toney private institution in a wealthy, mostly White suburb, then it is a blood libel against every private school headmaster in the country.” WHAT? Have you lost your senses?

    Your problem is that you take systemic racism as a given. You interpret every anecdotal piece of evidence (like the detention of the two women by the Secret Police you describe) in a country of 320 million people as evidence of ubiquitous racism. If you read my writing with any care or understanding whatsoever, you’d realize that I am not saying racism doesn’t exist, I’m saying that the evidence commonly presented to support claims of systemic racism — disparities in outcomes — does not constitute proof of any kind.

    If you want to criticize me, or other columnists, or commenters on this blog, do us the small favor of not making shit up.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Totally agree with Jim. 1 instance done by 2 officers, who either 1)made a very massive/dumb mistake or 2) are bigoted, doesn’t mean the rest of the folks are bigoted.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I was curious why it was Secret Service and not just regular police.

        1. Izzo Avatar
          Izzo

          That area should be the jurisdiction of U.S. Park Police.

  4. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Wow, Peter. There is a world of difference between what is written on Bacon’s Rebellion and how you perceive it. I know you well enough to know that you’re not deliberately falsifying what others and I have written. The question is how you process what is written, and warp it to conform with your cognitive framework for understanding the world. Whatever is going on inside your head, it makes an honest dialogue very difficult.

    No one on this blog has ever written, “Blacks just need to try harder.”

    No one on this blog has ever written, “Blacks are lazy.”

    While I have frequently alluded to the prevalence of out-of-wedlock births and households with absentee fathers among blacks, a phenomenon which is increasing among whites as well, no one has ever said, “Blacks do not support family values.”

    I have said (and documented) that there is no racial inequity in educational spending in Virginia public schools, and in any case, there is little correlation between spending and educational achievement. I have suggested that inner-city school systems run by Democrats and progressives waste a lot of money. But no one has ever said, “[Blacks] get too much wasted money in school spending and health care.”

    While I have emphasized that the number of blacks killed by policemen in Virginia is very small and exceed the number of whites killed by policemen, and I have argued that the prevalence of police non-lethal brutality is exaggerated, I have never said, “Their constant abuse by law enforcement is imaginary.” (I don’t recall off-hand anyone else making that claim either.)

    Where you get the rest of this stuff is utterly beyond me — “Students interested [in Black Lives Matter] were not ‘indoctrinated’ enough. It’s bad enough if it comes up in public schools, but let BLM come up at a toney private institution in a wealthy, mostly White suburb, then it is a blood libel against every private school headmaster in the country.” WHAT? Have you lost your senses?

    Your problem is that you take systemic racism as a given. You interpret every anecdotal piece of evidence (like the detention of the two women by the Secret Police you describe) in a country of 320 million people as evidence of ubiquitous racism. If you read my writing with any care or understanding whatsoever, you’d realize that I am not saying racism doesn’t exist, I’m saying that the evidence commonly presented to support claims of systemic racism — disparities in outcomes — does not constitute proof of any kind.

    If you want to criticize me, or other columnists, or commenters on this blog, do us the small favor of not making shit up.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Totally agree with Jim. 1 instance done by 2 officers, who either 1)made a very massive/dumb mistake or 2) are bigoted, doesn’t mean the rest of the folks are bigoted.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I was curious why it was Secret Service and not just regular police.

  5. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    TBIll

    Here’s the cite:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/two-black-moms-took-their-kids-to-the-mall-secret-service-confronted-them-with-guns-they-said/2020/08/03/be4dfa8c-d4f1-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html

  6. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    TBIll

    Here’s the cite:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/two-black-moms-took-their-kids-to-the-mall-secret-service-confronted-them-with-guns-they-said/2020/08/03/be4dfa8c-d4f1-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html

  7. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jim,
    Maybe you should read some of the responses to blog posts. There are days I feel I am back in the early to mid 1960s. You don’t seem to understand this because you don’t see some of the dog whistles that come on. plus, there is a very clear anti BLM sentiment here that some would call racist. Reed Fawell responded to Jim Sherlock’s post on Cape Henry stating somehow that BLM sympathies are the result of students being improperly “indoctrinated.” Look, I went to a Jesuit high school in the 1960s and that statement made me cringe. At least the Jesuits encouraged us to think for ourselves.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      We do see them but 2 people out of how many, doesn’t indicate that we adopt a communist form of govt. to fix the problem. Next, go ask Jews, Gypsy’s, Ukrainians, Uigyers, how they are treated by the dominant Russian/Soviet/Chinese Communist culture.

    2. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      The definition of systemic: relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

      You cite instances of what you see as racism. Certainly there are such instances and they are deplorable. No one denies it.

      Write a column in which you cite which systems in America you believe are are racist and explain what characterizes them as racist.

      If the answer is limited to disparate outcomes, then we will have something that honorable people can debate.

      I’ll even give you a head start. Consider Senator Biden’s bill in 1994 that required much stronger penalties for crack cocaine than for powder cocaine. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-an-early-biden-crime-bill-created-the-sentencing-disparity-for-crack-and-cocaine-trafficking/2019/07/28/5cbb4c98-9dcf-11e9-85d6-5211733f92c7_story.html

      It as signed by President Clinton. At the time Biden celebrated his accomplishment.

      “I’m the guy that wrote this bill,” he said in 1994. “Presumptuous thing to say, but I wrote this bill with my own little hands, and I added into the bill more than 50 death penalties.”

      Fortunately, that was corrected by the First Step Act advocated for and signed by President Trump in December of 2018 that among other reforms eliminated that distinction.

      The First Step Act gave federal judges more leeway when sentencing some drug offenders and boost prisoner rehabilitation efforts. It reduced life sentences for some drug offenders with three convictions, or “three strikes,” to 25 years. Another provision allowed about 2,600 federal prisoners sentenced for crack cocaine offenses before August 2010 the opportunity to petition for a reduced penalty.”

      Isn’t it great that the genius of America’s political system designed by slave holders is that it can make mistakes and then correct them? Including outlawing slavery itself in the Constitution.

      As an aside, I also went to a Jesuit high school in the 60’s. They indeed encouraged each student to think for himself. They also taught us never to use constructs like “some would call”.

  8. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jim,
    Maybe you should read some of the responses to blog posts. There are days I feel I am back in the early to mid 1960s. You don’t seem to understand this because you don’t see some of the dog whistles that come on. plus, there is a very clear anti BLM sentiment here that some would call racist. Reed Fawell responded to Jim Sherlock’s post on Cape Henry stating somehow that BLM sympathies are the result of students being improperly “indoctrinated.” Look, I went to a Jesuit high school in the 1960s and that statement made me cringe. At least the Jesuits encouraged us to think for ourselves.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      We do see them but 2 people out of how many, doesn’t indicate that we adopt a communist form of govt. to fix the problem. Next, go ask Jews, Gypsy’s, Ukrainians, Uigyers, how they are treated by the dominant Russian/Soviet/Chinese Communist culture.

    2. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      The definition of systemic: relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

      You cite instances of what you see as racism. Certainly there are such instances and they are deplorable. No one denies it.

      Write a column in which you cite which systems in America you believe are are racist and explain what characterizes them as racist.

      If the answer is limited to disparate outcomes, then we will have something that honorable people can debate.

      I’ll even give you a head start. Consider Senator Biden’s bill in 1994 that required much stronger penalties for crack cocaine than for powder cocaine. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-an-early-biden-crime-bill-created-the-sentencing-disparity-for-crack-and-cocaine-trafficking/2019/07/28/5cbb4c98-9dcf-11e9-85d6-5211733f92c7_story.html

      It as signed by President Clinton. At the time Biden celebrated his accomplishment.

      “I’m the guy that wrote this bill,” he said in 1994. “Presumptuous thing to say, but I wrote this bill with my own little hands, and I added into the bill more than 50 death penalties.”

      Fortunately, that was corrected by the First Step Act advocated for and signed by President Trump in December of 2018 that among other reforms eliminated that distinction.

      The First Step Act gave federal judges more leeway when sentencing some drug offenders and boost prisoner rehabilitation efforts. It reduced life sentences for some drug offenders with three convictions, or “three strikes,” to 25 years. Another provision allowed about 2,600 federal prisoners sentenced for crack cocaine offenses before August 2010 the opportunity to petition for a reduced penalty.”

      Isn’t it great that the genius of America’s political system designed by slave holders is that it can make mistakes and then correct them? Including outlawing slavery itself in the Constitution.

      As an aside, I also went to a Jesuit high school in the 60’s. They indeed encouraged each student to think for himself. They also taught us never to use constructs like “some would call”.

  9. PackerFan Avatar
    PackerFan

    Washington Post reported it, so it must be true. Even the headline says “they said” (the two moms), so there is no question as to the validity of the complaint. The “Johnny-on-the-spot” Post reporter could hear the sounds of the “Mother Goose Club” playing on the car speakers, watched the moms “digging through their diaper bags” heard the crying babies, and the less-than-polite commands from the Secret Service officers who didn’t even have the decency to wear a mask. Even had a picture provided by one of the alleged victims to show the car damage. So obviously now is the time to run with the story and let the outrage train out of the station, rather than letting the Secret Service do their investigation of what happened. Oh wait, we can’t trust anyone with a badge and certainly can’t trust their investigation. Part of the liberal playbook from way back, go out and find that everyman/everywoman and tell “their story”. Let the facts come in later. At this point, many of you will think I’m not sympathetic toward the mothers and their babies and that is not the case. If their story is true, they deserve full justice from the federal government. My annoyance is with the Washington Post and their cherry picking of what to report. Still ignoring the violent portions of the protests all over the country including DC and still ignoring the continued black on black violence all around them and running the stories that best fit their narrative.

  10. PackerFan Avatar
    PackerFan

    Washington Post reported it, so it must be true. Even the headline says “they said” (the two moms), so there is no question as to the validity of the complaint. The “Johnny-on-the-spot” Post reporter could hear the sounds of the “Mother Goose Club” playing on the car speakers, watched the moms “digging through their diaper bags” heard the crying babies, and the less-than-polite commands from the Secret Service officers who didn’t even have the decency to wear a mask. Even had a picture provided by one of the alleged victims to show the car damage. So obviously now is the time to run with the story and let the outrage train out of the station, rather than letting the Secret Service do their investigation of what happened. Oh wait, we can’t trust anyone with a badge and certainly can’t trust their investigation. Part of the liberal playbook from way back, go out and find that everyman/everywoman and tell “their story”. Let the facts come in later. At this point, many of you will think I’m not sympathetic toward the mothers and their babies and that is not the case. If their story is true, they deserve full justice from the federal government. My annoyance is with the Washington Post and their cherry picking of what to report. Still ignoring the violent portions of the protests all over the country including DC and still ignoring the continued black on black violence all around them and running the stories that best fit their narrative.

  11. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    VN, the fact that there are so many cases like this out there, perhaps social media but even so, BLM is needed..
    Packer Fan, I honestly could care less if you believe the Post or not. I have been freelancing for them for 10 years and have never seen them pull a bunch. I can’t say that about the Richmond paper or Virginia Business magazine where I have worked.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Where are the “many” cases you mention of the secret service? PackerFan has brought up serious questions in regards to the reporting. It is all one sided. Nothing from the Secret Service.
      Rioting, looting, all illegal activities are not needed by anyone. I have yet to see (although advocating for it) consistently any one who gets up week after week at BoS’s, city councils, etc. like I do in my city for changes that would affect the lives of others, minorities included.
      How do you discuss Dr. Walter Williams, Dr. Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, just to name 3, who have all indicated positions different to yours?

      Btw, instead of flinging back personal issues at us, take a look at what was presented and why you aren’t answering our questions but doing ad hominem attacks to the questioners. That right there says you don’t and won’t address the shortcomings of the coverage or your coverage, and that this is not the case to prove your point.

  12. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    VN, the fact that there are so many cases like this out there, perhaps social media but even so, BLM is needed..
    Packer Fan, I honestly could care less if you believe the Post or not. I have been freelancing for them for 10 years and have never seen them pull a bunch. I can’t say that about the Richmond paper or Virginia Business magazine where I have worked.

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Where are the “many” cases you mention of the secret service? PackerFan has brought up serious questions in regards to the reporting. It is all one sided. Nothing from the Secret Service.
      Rioting, looting, all illegal activities are not needed by anyone. I have yet to see (although advocating for it) consistently any one who gets up week after week at BoS’s, city councils, etc. like I do in my city for changes that would affect the lives of others, minorities included.
      How do you discuss Dr. Walter Williams, Dr. Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, just to name 3, who have all indicated positions different to yours?

      Btw, instead of flinging back personal issues at us, take a look at what was presented and why you aren’t answering our questions but doing ad hominem attacks to the questioners. That right there says you don’t and won’t address the shortcomings of the coverage or your coverage, and that this is not the case to prove your point.

  13. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. You left out Hitler and other hard right, White supremacists

  14. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. You left out Hitler and other hard right, White supremacists

  15. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. I am not a Sowell fan who seems to be every White conservative’s favorite Black commentator. How about James Baldwin or others? W e b Dubois?

    1. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      He and Walter Williams, Colin Powell, Condolezza Rice, Candace Owens, Alan Keyes, Dr. Ben Carson, J.C. Watts, Lynn Swann, Stacey Dash, Clarance Thomas, Janice Rogers Brown, Michael Steele, Ward Connerly and the young African American conservatives that follow them are a constant rebuke to the left. The left finds them impossible to explain, so it hates them with a special passion.

    2. V N Avatar
      V N

      Whether or not you are a fan or not, is there data to support what they say is correct? Is what they say factually true? Can there be support?

      Whether you like someone or not is immaterial. There are many data points I don’t like but they are factual, I acknowledge them and respect them.

    3. MAdams Avatar
      MAdams

      W.E. Dubois for all his accomplishments was a proponent of eugenics within the black community. So that begs the question, have you ever read his work or do you just cite his skin color.

  16. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. I am not a Sowell fan who seems to be every White conservative’s favorite Black commentator. How about James Baldwin or others? W e b Dubois?

    1. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      He and Walter Williams, Colin Powell, Condolezza Rice, Candace Owens, Alan Keyes, Dr. Ben Carson, J.C. Watts, Lynn Swann, Stacey Dash, Clarance Thomas, Janice Rogers Brown, Michael Steele, Ward Connerly and the young African American conservatives that follow them are a constant rebuke to the left. The left finds them impossible to explain, so it hates them with a special passion.

    2. MAdams Avatar
      MAdams

      W.E. Dubois for all his accomplishments was a proponent of eugenics within the black community. So that begs the question, have you ever read his work or do you just cite his skin color.

    3. V N Avatar
      V N

      Whether or not you are a fan or not, is there data to support what they say is correct? Is what they say factually true? Can there be support?

      Whether you like someone or not is immaterial. There are many data points I don’t like but they are factual, I acknowledge them and respect them.

  17. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn I did not say that the secret service are responsible for big numbers of questionable behavior. Maybe it came out that way

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Systemic racism, you use a SS example, so are you saying only the SS doesn’t have racism?

  18. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn I did not say that the secret service are responsible for big numbers of questionable behavior. Maybe it came out that way

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Systemic racism, you use a SS example, so are you saying only the SS doesn’t have racism?

  19. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Nothing from the Secret Service.”

    Haven’t they had every opportunity to provide facts and minimize the Post version?

    Also – why is the Secret Service involved in a stolen car crime?

    It appears to me that the Secret Service has chosen to NOT respond, perhaps pending their own investigation… we’ll see…

    BTW -I did not think it was legal for folks to go into these pools…

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Why bother with folks who refuse to see the light and change their way of thinking to a more factual one?
      The SS is not required to respond to ad hominem attacks for every little thing it does.

    2. MAdams Avatar
      MAdams

      It’s prohibited but not enforced, regarding the wading into the pool.

  20. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Nothing from the Secret Service.”

    Haven’t they had every opportunity to provide facts and minimize the Post version?

    Also – why is the Secret Service involved in a stolen car crime?

    It appears to me that the Secret Service has chosen to NOT respond, perhaps pending their own investigation… we’ll see…

    BTW -I did not think it was legal for folks to go into these pools…

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Why bother with folks who refuse to see the light and change their way of thinking to a more factual one?
      The SS is not required to respond to ad hominem attacks for every little thing it does.

    2. MAdams Avatar
      MAdams

      It’s prohibited but not enforced, regarding the wading into the pool.

  21. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Larry. When I was a little kid in the dc area in the late 1950s I noticed little kids in public fountains all the time. At anti war Demos in the late 1960s, the Reflecting Pool was packed with pretty, scantily clad young women.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      yeah but I thought it was a no-no now! 😉

      do you know what the deal is with “black-on-black”crime? Why is it brought up by some folks over and over?

      1. sherlockj Avatar
        sherlockj

        Because the No. 1 cause of death for African-American males 15-34 is murder (CDC). Juan Williams is quoted in https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/aug/24/juan-williams/juan-williams-no-1-cause-death-african-americans-1/

        “I think there’s fear of intimidation, harassment being legitimized by the fact that there is a high rate of crime, especially among young black men,” Williams said. “No. 1 cause of death, young black men 15 to 34 — murder. Who’s committing the murder? Not police. Other black men.”

      2. V N Avatar
        V N

        For those folks who are pro life, any death matters, it doesn’t matter as much how they die. Its how many. There are more African American killed by African American males than cops.
        The problem telegraphed is it “ok”? (I dont’ know how else to put it) if black people kill black people, but white cops can’t kill black criminals because that’s a problem. At least that is the common denominator of different threads I can pick up. That doesn’t mean right or wrong, or that it is being said way, its just that what appears to be telegraphed is, don’t kill our criminals. Does that make sense? I wonder if any one has ever told someone else that.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          It is not that cops are killing Black criminals. It is that cops are either killing Blacks who are not criminals or killing Blacks who commit minor, nonviolent crimes, for which a white person likely would not have been shot.

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            How many of those specific instances are there out of how many total encounters that have the same type in whatever other race you are picking?

    2. John Harvie Avatar
      John Harvie

      They might have been mine who were born in 1953 and 1955 in now defunct old Alexandria hospital.

  22. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Larry. When I was a little kid in the dc area in the late 1950s I noticed little kids in public fountains all the time. At anti war Demos in the late 1960s, the Reflecting Pool was packed with pretty, scantily clad young women.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      yeah but I thought it was a no-no now! 😉

      do you know what the deal is with “black-on-black”crime? Why is it brought up by some folks over and over?

      1. sherlockj Avatar
        sherlockj

        Because the No. 1 cause of death for African-American males 15-34 is murder (CDC). Juan Williams is quoted in https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/aug/24/juan-williams/juan-williams-no-1-cause-death-african-americans-1/

        “I think there’s fear of intimidation, harassment being legitimized by the fact that there is a high rate of crime, especially among young black men,” Williams said. “No. 1 cause of death, young black men 15 to 34 — murder. Who’s committing the murder? Not police. Other black men.”

      2. V N Avatar
        V N

        For those folks who are pro life, any death matters, it doesn’t matter as much how they die. Its how many. There are more African American killed by African American males than cops.
        The problem telegraphed is it “ok”? (I dont’ know how else to put it) if black people kill black people, but white cops can’t kill black criminals because that’s a problem. At least that is the common denominator of different threads I can pick up. That doesn’t mean right or wrong, or that it is being said way, its just that what appears to be telegraphed is, don’t kill our criminals. Does that make sense? I wonder if any one has ever told someone else that.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          It is not that cops are killing Black criminals. It is that cops are either killing Blacks who are not criminals or killing Blacks who commit minor, nonviolent crimes, for which a white person likely would not have been shot.

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            How many of those specific instances are there out of how many total encounters that have the same type in whatever other race you are picking?

    2. John Harvie Avatar
      John Harvie

      They might have been mine who were born in 1953 and 1955 in now defunct old Alexandria hospital.

  23. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    For all Black men, it is heart disease. For all, homicide is 5 percent. But you have a point Journalist WJ Cash noted young black on black homicide in his 1940 book The Mind of the South”

    1. PackerFan Avatar
      PackerFan

      Just can’t step away from that narrative can you Pete? Shall we put you down for “the homicide rate for black males in the 15 – 34 year old age bracket isn’t important to me unless they are killed by a police officer” category?

  24. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    For all Black men, it is heart disease. For all, homicide is 5 percent. But you have a point Journalist WJ Cash noted young black on black homicide in his 1940 book The Mind of the South”

    1. PackerFan Avatar
      PackerFan

      Just can’t step away from that narrative can you Pete? Shall we put you down for “the homicide rate for black males in the 15 – 34 year old age bracket isn’t important to me unless they are killed by a police officer” category?

  25. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    The most dangerous place for a black child in Virginia is perhaps the mother’s womb. 16,070 abortions in 2018. 6,627 black abortions. 20% of our state population is African American. 40% of all abortions in Virginia are African American. Something is terribly wrong. Nobody wants to talk about it. I would be very interested in your thoughts Mr. Peter. Why is this happening and what can be done about? This is an important question.
    https://apps.vdh.virginia.gov/HealthStats/documents/pdf/itop_1-2_2018.pdf

  26. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    The most dangerous place for a black child in Virginia is perhaps the mother’s womb. 16,070 abortions in 2018. 6,627 black abortions. 20% of our state population is African American. 40% of all abortions in Virginia are African American. Something is terribly wrong. Nobody wants to talk about it. I would be very interested in your thoughts Mr. Peter. Why is this happening and what can be done about? This is an important question.
    https://apps.vdh.virginia.gov/HealthStats/documents/pdf/itop_1-2_2018.pdf

  27. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Mr.Whitehead, you are asking me a question that is troubling. On the one hand, my religious faith is against abortion. On the other hand, a woman’s right to it is the law of the land. I respect that. If I were a medical professional, would I perform one? Only to save the mother. Not a great answer.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      I here you Mr. Peter. “Not a great answer”. This is probably the best we can do at the moment, but I see this as an issue to be decided in this century. Just as slavery was decided in the 19th century and Jim Crow in the 20th century. Perhaps part of our national journey to a more perfect union?

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        It would be wonderful if a Black leader stepped forth and urged (1) young Black women to use birth control and (2) urged pregnant Black women not to have abortions.

  28. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Mr.Whitehead, you are asking me a question that is troubling. On the one hand, my religious faith is against abortion. On the other hand, a woman’s right to it is the law of the land. I respect that. If I were a medical professional, would I perform one? Only to save the mother. Not a great answer.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      I here you Mr. Peter. “Not a great answer”. This is probably the best we can do at the moment, but I see this as an issue to be decided in this century. Just as slavery was decided in the 19th century and Jim Crow in the 20th century. Perhaps part of our national journey to a more perfect union?

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        It would be wonderful if a Black leader stepped forth and urged (1) young Black women to use birth control and (2) urged pregnant Black women not to have abortions.

  29. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    PackerFan, what narrative? Am not “Pete.”

  30. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    PackerFan, what narrative? Am not “Pete.”

  31. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I side with Peter. I have basically the same reaction to many of the comments recently on this blog. No, Jim, no one has explicitly, “Blacks are lazy” or “Blacks just need to try harder.” But, I hear the implicit undertone to that effect.

    There is systemic racism in society. If you don’t believe it, you need to talk to some Black folk. Ask them if they worry about their kids being picked up by the police every time they go out. Ask them if they have ever been stopped by the police on some pretense. There are just too many stories out there to deny that it exists.

    Oh, a lot of overt discrimination has been banned. But generations of being discriminated against cannot be overcome overnight. Many Black kids grow up in poor housing areas because their grandparents were not allowed to live in areas populated by whites, and the law supported that discrimination. Some participants on this blog seem to believe that every kid, black or white, is born with equal chances to succeed in this country. Legally, that may be true. Realistically, it is not. A white boy born to a family in Windsor Farms in Richmond has infinitely more chance of succeeding than a Black boy born to a single mother in one of the housing projects. The system is stacked heavily against that Black boy from the very beginning. A lot of the obstacles are due to poverty. But a lot of that poverty stems from generations of discrimination.

    I recently heard a segment on the Freakeconomics radio program that made me re-examine some of my own reactions to this issue. The speaker was Glenn Loury, an economist at Brown University. A few decades ago, he was the first tenured economics faculty member at Harvard. Please indulge me as I quote him at length:

    First, his bona fides for Bacon’s Rebellion true believers: “Well, I have of late been saying I’m a man without a country. I call myself a centrist. I believe in markets. I think capitalism has been a force for good in the world overall. I think that the tendency toward planning and social control is mischievous.”

    Now, on systemic racism:
    “DUBNER[Host]: So, when you hear someone use the phrase “systemic racism” — a phrase we’ve been hearing much more lately in the U.S. — your response to that phrase is what?
    LOURY: I think you’re playing with words and avoiding the hard work of trying to discover complex historical causal chains. It’s a slogan. It’s a bludgeon. You’re saying, “Be for motherhood and apple pie.” Who’s not against “systemic racism”? But if it explains everything, well, then at the end of the day, it doesn’t explain anything at all, does it?
    DUBNER: When you say “it dismisses the hard work of trying to understand those complex causal changes,” give me an example of what you mean by that. Give me an example of the difference between a causal explanation or mechanism and sloganeering.
    LOURY: Well, let’s take the issue of school discipline. Suppose we were to discover on examination that the racial disparity in the rate of kids being suspended from school disfavored African-Americans, and we were to attribute that fact to systemic racism. But in fact, what might be happening in the schools is that for a variety of complicated social and historical, economic, and political reasons, the African-American kids on average are showing up with patterns of behavior that are disproportionately disruptive and that reflects itself in their being suspended at a higher rate.
    Now, of course, it might be racism. It might be that the school discipline system is systemically biased, but it might not be. And the difference between those two states of the world where racism explains everything or where complex social and historical processes are at work is the difference between solving the problem and not solving it.”

    On police and society in general (there is something in this for both sides of the debate on BR):
    “DUBNER: So, let me ask you this. Not long ago, Glenn, you said, “I think the reason that we’re talking about reparations now is because people are out of ideas. They don’t know what to say about racial disparities other than to point a finger and then try to create a kind of political issue.” Talk to me a little bit more about that, what you think are either economic or educational or tax policy programs that you think really would work better.
    LOURY: Well, everything is not policy, and part of what I’m getting at there is that some of the problem has its roots in the dynamics internal to the African-American community, which we are responsible ourselves to address. And this is very difficult territory because it feels like blaming the victim to a lot of people. You know, if I observe that — take the cops and the problem that we have in the cities with order maintenance and profiling. So, this has now become kind of a trope. I mean, it’s now argued without any second thought. “You profiled me. That was racist.” I’m Black. I’ve got a Ph.D. from M.I.T. I’m a middle-class person, but I walk into a department store and I notice that the security person has his eye on me. I feel put upon.

    Now, that’s true. It happens. A police officer asked me to open my trunk when I’m stopped and I’ve got a New York Times open on the front seat of a B.M.W. and I’m wearing a suit. What does he think? I’ve got a cache of drugs in my trunk? I’m offended by that. Of course, that happens. On the other hand I’m an economist and we believe in statistical decision theory as a reasonable model of how it is that uninformed individuals act under incomplete information. And one of the things that they do is they correlate unknown things with the known things and they use statistical frequencies. And the bottom line is my race is correlated with the behavior that they can’t observe. And so, they use my race’s information. I don’t know how you stop people from doing that.

    I think you can legislate against it. You can administer against it. But at the end of the day, there’s something very cognitively fundamental about that, and it’s something that would affect the behavior of everybody, regardless of their race. Anyway, that’s a digression by way of saying if two-thirds of the kids born to a Black woman are born to a woman without her husband, and if amongst African-American adolescent males, I observe a high frequency of behavioral maladaptation, of aggression, of whatever, am I entitled at all to consider the possibility that the nature of African-American family dynamics might have a role to play in the behavior problems of some male adolescents, which then reflects itself in a lot of this drama that we see between the cops and African-American men on the streets of these cities?

    I think there are issues that we African-Americans have to confront so that the underlying causal model, historical violation reflected, for example, in a wealth gap, leaves us with a contemporary problem, the remedy for which relies on public policy. That model is incomplete because the historical violation did not only deprive us of assets. It also created context within which the dynamics of social development and evolution left us with large numbers of violent young men in the cities. That’s a problem in and of itself. Read what’s going on in Chicago on a daily basis. It’s not letting white people off the hook or America off the hook for its historical crimes to observe that some of the stuff that’s holding us back is within our reach to be able to deal with and really can’t be effectively dealt with in any other way.
    The indirect argument — “I’ll solve the problem of violence on the South Side of Chicago with more social spending, with more money for the schools, with more social workers, with midnight basketball, with whatever” — I don’t think the evidence is very strong that I can get all the way to where I want to go in that way. That’s the kind of thing that I’ve been feeling the need to call to people’s attention, that we African-Americans have some responsibility for how it is that we raise our children and organize our communities and so forth. I think that should be a part of the discussion.”

    This discussion can be found at: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reparations-part-2/

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Proof Dick? I can talk to Larry Elder or Dr. Williams (and I have, twice) and they have data to underpin their arguments. These are obviously folks who are not lazy. That would include Winnie, the first African American to graduate with a CS masters at a university near me. The issue is not whether or not one group agrees with you but the *logic* and *data* agree with you.
      Can they give specific instances that a police officer has known the race before they stop? https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/12/dojs-policing-statistics-dont-lie-ian-tuttle/
      So they grew up in bad situations. So did I. I got an education, went to college and got 2 degrees. Is that the response of others? Same for Larry Elders’ dad and Dr. Walter Williams. Same for Winnie I’ve just mentioned.
      Is the issue between the Windsor Farms/projects person the home/parent emphasis on education to get ahead? Is that what is taught and reinforced in the home?
      Public school gets you the high school degree to go to college or a tech school. That’s an entry, you can do loans if needed or work your way thru, which is what I did.
      I’ve been able to see African Americans succeed in college and other careers. How is it they did it and others can’t?
      How many times are kids suspended for doing homework, not disrupting classes, not fighting?
      I’m not saying there isn’t racism. There is. However, all the discussion doesn’t answer the questions or issues that Dr. Williams and Larry Elder bring up. Where is the data/research that actually can refute in the same manner/method that they have brought these issues up?

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I give Dick credit for having the courage to say his view in BR. It’s one that I share so I won’t go repeating it but he’s dead on IMHO.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        On this blog he can, but in real life, none of the rest of us can point out what Larry Elder, Dr. Williams, Candace Owens, et all, are saying without being cancelled, fired, mob riot, doxxed …

        Again, asking for specific instances to support a case shouldn’t be a bad thing.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          do you want some actual quotes from prior BR posts and comments?

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            What are the resources cited? Not the same WaPo story, the story had more holes than Swiss cheese. In other words, specific analysis of this that Ben Shapiro would be able to live with.

          2. V N Avatar
            V N

            Larry don’t reply until you’ve checked out the facts from the person and then can offer against the facts, not the person. Are you not capable of that? Did I state that incorrectly the past few times? I’ve debated your facts: either you are capable of that function or you aren’t.
            It certainly looks like you’re not.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I’m confused as to what you are saying. Are you talking about the WaPo article or what folks say in BR?

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            What resources are you citing, that are not anecdotal, to support the theory you believe in? The WaPo story had a load of questions that poked a lot of holes in it, because it was a one sided story. Where are there resources, data, research, that proves the case.
            https://www.westernjournal.com/stats-systemic-police-racism-myth/
            Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. She’s been studying criminal justice for decades and is particularly unpopular in moments like these. That’s because the data she cites often coalesces around an uncomfortable truth: Systemic police racism is a myth. “However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians,” she wrote in a Tuesday Op-Ed for The Wall Street Journal.
            https://areomagazine.com/2020/06/16/three-common-fallacies-in-arguments-about-systemic-racism/
            For instance, black economist Roland Fryer intended to demonstrate that there was a bias against black individuals in the lethal use of force by the police, even after confounding factors, such as the suspects’ behavior during interactions with police, were considered. His study found no such bias, much to his surprise, though it did find bias in non-lethal uses of force.
            https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/07/23/the_systemic_racism_trap_143779.html
            https://thoughtcatalog.com/dave-nappi/2014/04/a-logical-case-for-the-non-existence-of-white-privilege-and-institutional-racism/ – the first paragraph about Roderick Scott
            https://merionwest.com/2017/08/19/the-myth-of-institutional-racism/
            https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-systemic-racism-really/
            https://www.dailywire.com/news/7-statistics-show-systemic-racism-doesnt-exist-aaron-bandler

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            here’s two:

            https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/FT_20.05.05_ImprisonmentRates_2a.png?resize=420,469

            and

            ” Fact check: Police killed more unarmed Black men in 2019 than conservative activist claimed

            The claim: U.S. police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019
            In response to the nationwide Black Lives Matter movement after the death of George Floyd, Charlie Kirk, the founder and president of the conservative group Turning Point USA, posted a statement on Facebook.

            Kirk claimed in a video posted to Facebook during the Blackout Tuesday campaign that, according to the Washington Post’s database of police shootings, police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019.

            Kirk uses this figure while arguing that systemic racism does not exist within law enforcement. He did not mention in the video that Black Americans make up 13% of the population “but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans,” as the Post reported. He also did not mention, as explained by Naomi Zack in her book on racial profiling and police homicide that “when 4.4 million random stop and frisks were conducted in New York City, during the period from 2004 [to] 2012, even though Blacks were disproportionately singled out, the incidence of further police action was less for Blacks than for whites.”

            Kirk’s claim that police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019 is incorrect for several reasons.

            Kirk cites the Post’s database, which includes only people shot by police, not killed through other means like beating or tasering. He also cites a database that is incomplete. The number of unarmed Black men fatally shot by police is likely higher than the Post’s count due to a lack of comprehensive police records, which Kirk does not acknowledge. Despite these issues, the Post’s database shows police fatally shot 13 unarmed black men in 2019, not eight.”

          3. V N Avatar
            V N

            Do the populations indicated commit more crime than other populations? Larry Elder, etc. indicate they do. Commit more crimes, do more time. Of those people who are shot by police, did they submit to being arrested or did they fight back/become violent? Larry Elder addresses that issue also. I was looking for something other than the same information that Mr. Elder and others have debunked, and asked questions on, with no response.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Is Larry Elder considered an objective source?

            https://www.politifact.com/personalities/larry-elder/

          5. V N Avatar
            V N

            WaPo certainly is not and Elder gives his stats from data/research. In addition, I know of at least one instance where he said he made a mistake and retracted it, not only was the retraction public, but so was the video in which he discussed the whole item. He was wrong on one point, and that’s it.
            Just because you don’t like conservatives or the data/research, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. WaPo certainly has a crappy reputation that they earned.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Elder is clearly not objective… yet you cite him as factual.

            are black folks wrong about this:

            https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/04/PSDT_04.09.19_race-00-03.png?resize=640,806

          7. V N Avatar
            V N

            LarrytheG and Peter, go thru these and debunk the facts/research presented with something credible:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3nInyPuFE Where is systemic racism
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z572XopBVFc The systemic racism and police brutality narrative
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJnzBHURvs Real Racism and BLM
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koaup4I-Oj8 here is one on media bias
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyQ9bwD4vOs here is another
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5daNMXer2UQ Dr. Thomas Sowell
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHd5bmEdU4 Dr. Sowell on victimology
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sV5qU6e-YY The Myth of Systemic Racism Coleman Hughes (part 2)
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmkg8GC1c64 Does systemic racism exist in the US today?

            Stop attacking the guy and attack his facts with facts. You wonder why you have no credibility?

            Someones “perception” can be different of the same event. That is not fact debunking of Mr. Elder, Drs. Sowell and Williams’, facts/stats.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            V N – Are these guys creator of facts or opinion/commentators?

            They have viewpoints but they are just as biased as WaPo is, no?

            Don’t say that these guys are presenting “facts” if they are referencing facts – present the sources that are said to be facts.

            Commentators do this – they go pick facts selectively to back up their view – but unless we see the actual sources of their facts – it’s just pure opinion, i.e. their version based on their interpretation of facts.

            You are right. WaPO IS biased – but so are these guys. You just like their bias better. no?

            And I did ask you what do most black people believe? Does that matter?

            If ordinary black people believe there is systemic racism -based on their own experiences – do you tell them they are mistaken?

          9. V N Avatar
            V N

            LarrytheG don’t reply until you’ve checked out the facts from the person and then can offer against the facts, not the person. Are you not capable of that? I’ve debated your facts: either you are capable of that function or you aren’t.
            It certainly looks like you’re not.

          10. V N Avatar
            V N

            Pretty funny Reid isn’t it? Someone who has yet to post a lick of facts against the storyline itself can only personally attack. Credibility is gone, so we can make sure folks know in the future what he’s about. Argument is lost when that’s all someone can do.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yep. facts. post the links to the facts not links to blatherbutts who use only the fact they want to present something other than an objective picture.

            You have a problem with WaPo and with some justifcation. The guys you post are actually WORSE than WAPO so don’t use them if you want objectivity.

            I’ve posted a number of sourced facts and don’t mind doing it again.

            how about reporting for Police deaths – who does it and is it accurate?

            ” Exactly how many people are killed by the police each year? This question has been asked with increasing urgency in the months since Michael Brown was killed by Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson last August. Brown’s death energized a movement to reform American police practices, in particular the use of deadly force. That movement, under the banner “Black Lives Matter,” has directed the nation’s attention to police killings of unarmed black Americans and spurred numerous efforts to estimate the scale of the problem.

            Still, a full year after Brown’s death, the government is without a reliable system for tracking police use of force. Experts say given the nature of the phenomenon and the difficulty of measuring it accurately, it’s not likely we’ll have one any time soon. ”

            https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-measuring-police-killings/

        3. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          V N – don’t provide commentors as providers of facts guy.

          provide the facts – link to the facts – I don’t need to hear
          these folks “opinions” anymore than you believe the WaPo.

          I’ve provided several to you already from their sources – like information about how many black folks are imprisoned as a percentage of their population – those are facts… not opinion.

          You dont’ like WaPO. I don’t care for these folks you seem to like for opinion because they mix their opinion with facts – they manipulate to support their opinions.

          The fact some are black does not make them objective – in fact – most black folks don’t agree with them based on their own personal experiences.

          facts guy – not opinions.

          1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Larry the G demands:
            “facts guy – not opinions.”

            Wow!

    3. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
      UpAgnstTheWall

      This was good and thanks for sharing. I have only two corrections I would offer.

      First, where Loury says this:
      “…what might be happening in the schools is that for a variety of complicated social and historical, economic, and political reasons, the African-American kids on average are showing up with patterns of behavior that are disproportionately disruptive…”

      Those social and historical economic and political reasons that were forced on Black Americans ARE the systemic racism. History and society ARE the systems. The hypothetical he posits about being pulled over and the incident Peter uses in this post are bad, but they’re not systemic – they’re implicit bias by individuals within systems. They’re bad, but they’re secondary to – for example – a philosophy of policing where affluent, white neighborhoods have faster reaction times to police calls because the department focuses on quality of life maintenance there while response times can take hours in poor, Black neighborhoods because the cops there are too busy cruising around looking for drug dealers or street fights. That’s a system choice and it’s a racist one. And as you point out – Black Americans are more likely to suffer from generational poverty, which is also systemic.

      The second problem is here:
      “That’s the kind of thing that I’ve been feeling the need to call to people’s attention, that we African-Americans have some responsibility for how it is that we raise our children and organize our communities and so forth. I think that should be a part of the discussion.”

      I have never lived anywhere the Black community wasn’t supported by a variety of organizations from within the community dedicated to uplift from churches to the NAACP to projects like the Maggie Walker Community Land Trust. The problem is that generationally poor people have an incredibly limited pool of money to draw from, and it’s bad faith for a literal economist to elide that fact. And this also ignores the fact that the government actively worked to undermine Black organizations and organizers like the Black Panthers and Martin Luther King.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        Where is the gun pointed at a specific group that says you must behave in a way that is not condusive to getting an education? Proof of: “a philosophy of policing where affluent, white neighborhoods have faster reaction times to police calls because the department focuses on quality of life maintenance there while response times can take hours in poor, Black neighborhoods because the cops there are too busy cruising around looking for drug dealers or street fights”? When you have to take in the fire dept to use water to blast people from going after the cops, that right there is a reason why. If the community has *chosen* to not want the police, they have spoken.
        Your example indicates items from 80 years ago (MLK and BP). Any more recent, especially given the large #’s of white people who are fighting for BLM? Explain to me how money makes a difference in how you are taught to behave? To revere life? I was poor too – and yes where I come from has a reputation. To get out, I was taught education. I took advantage of what I had, which wasn’t perfect, but it was enough to make that start.

  32. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I side with Peter. I have basically the same reaction to many of the comments recently on this blog. No, Jim, no one has explicitly, “Blacks are lazy” or “Blacks just need to try harder.” But, I hear the implicit undertone to that effect.

    There is systemic racism in society. If you don’t believe it, you need to talk to some Black folk. Ask them if they worry about their kids being picked up by the police every time they go out. Ask them if they have ever been stopped by the police on some pretense. There are just too many stories out there to deny that it exists.

    Oh, a lot of overt discrimination has been banned. But generations of being discriminated against cannot be overcome overnight. Many Black kids grow up in poor housing areas because their grandparents were not allowed to live in areas populated by whites, and the law supported that discrimination. Some participants on this blog seem to believe that every kid, black or white, is born with equal chances to succeed in this country. Legally, that may be true. Realistically, it is not. A white boy born to a family in Windsor Farms in Richmond has infinitely more chance of succeeding than a Black boy born to a single mother in one of the housing projects. The system is stacked heavily against that Black boy from the very beginning. A lot of the obstacles are due to poverty. But a lot of that poverty stems from generations of discrimination.

    I recently heard a segment on the Freakeconomics radio program that made me re-examine some of my own reactions to this issue. The speaker was Glenn Loury, an economist at Brown University. A few decades ago, he was the first tenured economics faculty member at Harvard. Please indulge me as I quote him at length:

    First, his bona fides for Bacon’s Rebellion true believers: “Well, I have of late been saying I’m a man without a country. I call myself a centrist. I believe in markets. I think capitalism has been a force for good in the world overall. I think that the tendency toward planning and social control is mischievous.”

    Now, on systemic racism:
    “DUBNER[Host]: So, when you hear someone use the phrase “systemic racism” — a phrase we’ve been hearing much more lately in the U.S. — your response to that phrase is what?
    LOURY: I think you’re playing with words and avoiding the hard work of trying to discover complex historical causal chains. It’s a slogan. It’s a bludgeon. You’re saying, “Be for motherhood and apple pie.” Who’s not against “systemic racism”? But if it explains everything, well, then at the end of the day, it doesn’t explain anything at all, does it?
    DUBNER: When you say “it dismisses the hard work of trying to understand those complex causal changes,” give me an example of what you mean by that. Give me an example of the difference between a causal explanation or mechanism and sloganeering.
    LOURY: Well, let’s take the issue of school discipline. Suppose we were to discover on examination that the racial disparity in the rate of kids being suspended from school disfavored African-Americans, and we were to attribute that fact to systemic racism. But in fact, what might be happening in the schools is that for a variety of complicated social and historical, economic, and political reasons, the African-American kids on average are showing up with patterns of behavior that are disproportionately disruptive and that reflects itself in their being suspended at a higher rate.
    Now, of course, it might be racism. It might be that the school discipline system is systemically biased, but it might not be. And the difference between those two states of the world where racism explains everything or where complex social and historical processes are at work is the difference between solving the problem and not solving it.”

    On police and society in general (there is something in this for both sides of the debate on BR):
    “DUBNER: So, let me ask you this. Not long ago, Glenn, you said, “I think the reason that we’re talking about reparations now is because people are out of ideas. They don’t know what to say about racial disparities other than to point a finger and then try to create a kind of political issue.” Talk to me a little bit more about that, what you think are either economic or educational or tax policy programs that you think really would work better.
    LOURY: Well, everything is not policy, and part of what I’m getting at there is that some of the problem has its roots in the dynamics internal to the African-American community, which we are responsible ourselves to address. And this is very difficult territory because it feels like blaming the victim to a lot of people. You know, if I observe that — take the cops and the problem that we have in the cities with order maintenance and profiling. So, this has now become kind of a trope. I mean, it’s now argued without any second thought. “You profiled me. That was racist.” I’m Black. I’ve got a Ph.D. from M.I.T. I’m a middle-class person, but I walk into a department store and I notice that the security person has his eye on me. I feel put upon.

    Now, that’s true. It happens. A police officer asked me to open my trunk when I’m stopped and I’ve got a New York Times open on the front seat of a B.M.W. and I’m wearing a suit. What does he think? I’ve got a cache of drugs in my trunk? I’m offended by that. Of course, that happens. On the other hand I’m an economist and we believe in statistical decision theory as a reasonable model of how it is that uninformed individuals act under incomplete information. And one of the things that they do is they correlate unknown things with the known things and they use statistical frequencies. And the bottom line is my race is correlated with the behavior that they can’t observe. And so, they use my race’s information. I don’t know how you stop people from doing that.

    I think you can legislate against it. You can administer against it. But at the end of the day, there’s something very cognitively fundamental about that, and it’s something that would affect the behavior of everybody, regardless of their race. Anyway, that’s a digression by way of saying if two-thirds of the kids born to a Black woman are born to a woman without her husband, and if amongst African-American adolescent males, I observe a high frequency of behavioral maladaptation, of aggression, of whatever, am I entitled at all to consider the possibility that the nature of African-American family dynamics might have a role to play in the behavior problems of some male adolescents, which then reflects itself in a lot of this drama that we see between the cops and African-American men on the streets of these cities?

    I think there are issues that we African-Americans have to confront so that the underlying causal model, historical violation reflected, for example, in a wealth gap, leaves us with a contemporary problem, the remedy for which relies on public policy. That model is incomplete because the historical violation did not only deprive us of assets. It also created context within which the dynamics of social development and evolution left us with large numbers of violent young men in the cities. That’s a problem in and of itself. Read what’s going on in Chicago on a daily basis. It’s not letting white people off the hook or America off the hook for its historical crimes to observe that some of the stuff that’s holding us back is within our reach to be able to deal with and really can’t be effectively dealt with in any other way.
    The indirect argument — “I’ll solve the problem of violence on the South Side of Chicago with more social spending, with more money for the schools, with more social workers, with midnight basketball, with whatever” — I don’t think the evidence is very strong that I can get all the way to where I want to go in that way. That’s the kind of thing that I’ve been feeling the need to call to people’s attention, that we African-Americans have some responsibility for how it is that we raise our children and organize our communities and so forth. I think that should be a part of the discussion.”

    This discussion can be found at: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reparations-part-2/

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      Proof Dick? I can talk to Larry Elder or Dr. Williams (and I have, twice) and they have data to underpin their arguments. These are obviously folks who are not lazy. That would include Winnie, the first African American to graduate with a CS masters at a university near me. The issue is not whether or not one group agrees with you but the *logic* and *data* agree with you.
      Can they give specific instances that a police officer has known the race before they stop? https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/12/dojs-policing-statistics-dont-lie-ian-tuttle/
      So they grew up in bad situations. So did I. I got an education, went to college and got 2 degrees. Is that the response of others? Same for Larry Elders’ dad and Dr. Walter Williams. Same for Winnie I’ve just mentioned.
      Is the issue between the Windsor Farms/projects person the home/parent emphasis on education to get ahead? Is that what is taught and reinforced in the home?
      Public school gets you the high school degree to go to college or a tech school. That’s an entry, you can do loans if needed or work your way thru, which is what I did.
      I’ve been able to see African Americans succeed in college and other careers. How is it they did it and others can’t?
      How many times are kids suspended for doing homework, not disrupting classes, not fighting?
      I’m not saying there isn’t racism. There is. However, all the discussion doesn’t answer the questions or issues that Dr. Williams and Larry Elder bring up. Where is the data/research that actually can refute in the same manner/method that they have brought these issues up?

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I give Dick credit for having the courage to say his view in BR. It’s one that I share so I won’t go repeating it but he’s dead on IMHO.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        On this blog he can, but in real life, none of the rest of us can point out what Larry Elder, Dr. Williams, Candace Owens, et all, are saying without being cancelled, fired, mob riot, doxxed …

        Again, asking for specific instances to support a case shouldn’t be a bad thing.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          do you want some actual quotes from prior BR posts and comments?

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            What are the resources cited? Not the same WaPo story, the story had more holes than Swiss cheese. In other words, specific analysis of this that Ben Shapiro would be able to live with.

          2. V N Avatar
            V N

            Larry don’t reply until you’ve checked out the facts from the person and then can offer against the facts, not the person. Are you not capable of that? Did I state that incorrectly the past few times? I’ve debated your facts: either you are capable of that function or you aren’t.
            It certainly looks like you’re not.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I’m confused as to what you are saying. Are you talking about the WaPo article or what folks say in BR?

          1. V N Avatar
            V N

            What resources are you citing, that are not anecdotal, to support the theory you believe in? The WaPo story had a load of questions that poked a lot of holes in it, because it was a one sided story. Where are there resources, data, research, that proves the case.
            https://www.westernjournal.com/stats-systemic-police-racism-myth/
            Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. She’s been studying criminal justice for decades and is particularly unpopular in moments like these. That’s because the data she cites often coalesces around an uncomfortable truth: Systemic police racism is a myth. “However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians,” she wrote in a Tuesday Op-Ed for The Wall Street Journal.
            https://areomagazine.com/2020/06/16/three-common-fallacies-in-arguments-about-systemic-racism/
            For instance, black economist Roland Fryer intended to demonstrate that there was a bias against black individuals in the lethal use of force by the police, even after confounding factors, such as the suspects’ behavior during interactions with police, were considered. His study found no such bias, much to his surprise, though it did find bias in non-lethal uses of force.
            https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/07/23/the_systemic_racism_trap_143779.html
            https://thoughtcatalog.com/dave-nappi/2014/04/a-logical-case-for-the-non-existence-of-white-privilege-and-institutional-racism/ – the first paragraph about Roderick Scott
            https://merionwest.com/2017/08/19/the-myth-of-institutional-racism/
            https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-systemic-racism-really/
            https://www.dailywire.com/news/7-statistics-show-systemic-racism-doesnt-exist-aaron-bandler

          2. V N Avatar
            V N

            LarrytheG don’t reply until you’ve checked out the facts from the person and then can offer against the facts, not the person. Are you not capable of that? I’ve debated your facts: either you are capable of that function or you aren’t.
            It certainly looks like you’re not.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            here’s two:

            https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/FT_20.05.05_ImprisonmentRates_2a.png?resize=420,469

            and

            ” Fact check: Police killed more unarmed Black men in 2019 than conservative activist claimed

            The claim: U.S. police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019
            In response to the nationwide Black Lives Matter movement after the death of George Floyd, Charlie Kirk, the founder and president of the conservative group Turning Point USA, posted a statement on Facebook.

            Kirk claimed in a video posted to Facebook during the Blackout Tuesday campaign that, according to the Washington Post’s database of police shootings, police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019.

            Kirk uses this figure while arguing that systemic racism does not exist within law enforcement. He did not mention in the video that Black Americans make up 13% of the population “but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans,” as the Post reported. He also did not mention, as explained by Naomi Zack in her book on racial profiling and police homicide that “when 4.4 million random stop and frisks were conducted in New York City, during the period from 2004 [to] 2012, even though Blacks were disproportionately singled out, the incidence of further police action was less for Blacks than for whites.”

            Kirk’s claim that police killed eight unarmed Black men in 2019 is incorrect for several reasons.

            Kirk cites the Post’s database, which includes only people shot by police, not killed through other means like beating or tasering. He also cites a database that is incomplete. The number of unarmed Black men fatally shot by police is likely higher than the Post’s count due to a lack of comprehensive police records, which Kirk does not acknowledge. Despite these issues, the Post’s database shows police fatally shot 13 unarmed black men in 2019, not eight.”

          4. V N Avatar
            V N

            Do the populations indicated commit more crime than other populations? Larry Elder, etc. indicate they do. Commit more crimes, do more time. Of those people who are shot by police, did they submit to being arrested or did they fight back/become violent? Larry Elder addresses that issue also. I was looking for something other than the same information that Mr. Elder and others have debunked, and asked questions on, with no response.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Is Larry Elder considered an objective source?

            https://www.politifact.com/personalities/larry-elder/

          6. V N Avatar
            V N

            WaPo certainly is not and Elder gives his stats from data/research. In addition, I know of at least one instance where he said he made a mistake and retracted it, not only was the retraction public, but so was the video in which he discussed the whole item. He was wrong on one point, and that’s it.
            Just because you don’t like conservatives or the data/research, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. WaPo certainly has a crappy reputation that they earned.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Elder is clearly not objective… yet you cite him as factual.

            are black folks wrong about this:

            https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/04/PSDT_04.09.19_race-00-03.png?resize=640,806

          8. V N Avatar
            V N

            LarrytheG and Peter, go thru these and debunk the facts/research presented with something credible:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3nInyPuFE Where is systemic racism
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z572XopBVFc The systemic racism and police brutality narrative
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJnzBHURvs Real Racism and BLM
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koaup4I-Oj8 here is one on media bias
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyQ9bwD4vOs here is another
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5daNMXer2UQ Dr. Thomas Sowell
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHd5bmEdU4 Dr. Sowell on victimology
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sV5qU6e-YY The Myth of Systemic Racism Coleman Hughes (part 2)
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmkg8GC1c64 Does systemic racism exist in the US today?

            Stop attacking the guy and attack his facts with facts. You wonder why you have no credibility?

            Someones “perception” can be different of the same event. That is not fact debunking of Mr. Elder, Drs. Sowell and Williams’, facts/stats.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            V N – Are these guys creator of facts or opinion/commentators?

            They have viewpoints but they are just as biased as WaPo is, no?

            Don’t say that these guys are presenting “facts” if they are referencing facts – present the sources that are said to be facts.

            Commentators do this – they go pick facts selectively to back up their view – but unless we see the actual sources of their facts – it’s just pure opinion, i.e. their version based on their interpretation of facts.

            You are right. WaPO IS biased – but so are these guys. You just like their bias better. no?

            And I did ask you what do most black people believe? Does that matter?

            If ordinary black people believe there is systemic racism -based on their own experiences – do you tell them they are mistaken?

          10. V N Avatar
            V N

            Pretty funny Reid isn’t it? Someone who has yet to post a lick of facts against the storyline itself can only personally attack. Credibility is gone, so we can make sure folks know in the future what he’s about. Argument is lost when that’s all someone can do.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yep. facts. post the links to the facts not links to blatherbutts who use only the fact they want to present something other than an objective picture.

            You have a problem with WaPo and with some justifcation. The guys you post are actually WORSE than WAPO so don’t use them if you want objectivity.

            I’ve posted a number of sourced facts and don’t mind doing it again.

            how about reporting for Police deaths – who does it and is it accurate?

            ” Exactly how many people are killed by the police each year? This question has been asked with increasing urgency in the months since Michael Brown was killed by Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson last August. Brown’s death energized a movement to reform American police practices, in particular the use of deadly force. That movement, under the banner “Black Lives Matter,” has directed the nation’s attention to police killings of unarmed black Americans and spurred numerous efforts to estimate the scale of the problem.

            Still, a full year after Brown’s death, the government is without a reliable system for tracking police use of force. Experts say given the nature of the phenomenon and the difficulty of measuring it accurately, it’s not likely we’ll have one any time soon. ”

            https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-measuring-police-killings/

        3. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          V N – don’t provide commentors as providers of facts guy.

          provide the facts – link to the facts – I don’t need to hear
          these folks “opinions” anymore than you believe the WaPo.

          I’ve provided several to you already from their sources – like information about how many black folks are imprisoned as a percentage of their population – those are facts… not opinion.

          You dont’ like WaPO. I don’t care for these folks you seem to like for opinion because they mix their opinion with facts – they manipulate to support their opinions.

          The fact some are black does not make them objective – in fact – most black folks don’t agree with them based on their own personal experiences.

          facts guy – not opinions.

          1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Larry the G demands:
            “facts guy – not opinions.”

            Wow!

    3. UpAgnstTheWall Avatar
      UpAgnstTheWall

      This was good and thanks for sharing. I have only two corrections I would offer.

      First, where Loury says this:
      “…what might be happening in the schools is that for a variety of complicated social and historical, economic, and political reasons, the African-American kids on average are showing up with patterns of behavior that are disproportionately disruptive…”

      Those social and historical economic and political reasons that were forced on Black Americans ARE the systemic racism. History and society ARE the systems. The hypothetical he posits about being pulled over and the incident Peter uses in this post are bad, but they’re not systemic – they’re implicit bias by individuals within systems. They’re bad, but they’re secondary to – for example – a philosophy of policing where affluent, white neighborhoods have faster reaction times to police calls because the department focuses on quality of life maintenance there while response times can take hours in poor, Black neighborhoods because the cops there are too busy cruising around looking for drug dealers or street fights. That’s a system choice and it’s a racist one. And as you point out – Black Americans are more likely to suffer from generational poverty, which is also systemic.

      The second problem is here:
      “That’s the kind of thing that I’ve been feeling the need to call to people’s attention, that we African-Americans have some responsibility for how it is that we raise our children and organize our communities and so forth. I think that should be a part of the discussion.”

      I have never lived anywhere the Black community wasn’t supported by a variety of organizations from within the community dedicated to uplift from churches to the NAACP to projects like the Maggie Walker Community Land Trust. The problem is that generationally poor people have an incredibly limited pool of money to draw from, and it’s bad faith for a literal economist to elide that fact. And this also ignores the fact that the government actively worked to undermine Black organizations and organizers like the Black Panthers and Martin Luther King.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        Where is the gun pointed at a specific group that says you must behave in a way that is not condusive to getting an education? Proof of: “a philosophy of policing where affluent, white neighborhoods have faster reaction times to police calls because the department focuses on quality of life maintenance there while response times can take hours in poor, Black neighborhoods because the cops there are too busy cruising around looking for drug dealers or street fights”? When you have to take in the fire dept to use water to blast people from going after the cops, that right there is a reason why. If the community has *chosen* to not want the police, they have spoken.
        Your example indicates items from 80 years ago (MLK and BP). Any more recent, especially given the large #’s of white people who are fighting for BLM? Explain to me how money makes a difference in how you are taught to behave? To revere life? I was poor too – and yes where I come from has a reputation. To get out, I was taught education. I took advantage of what I had, which wasn’t perfect, but it was enough to make that start.

  33. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    At some point, 2nd Amendment comes in here. That’s part of the equation for law enforcement behavior.

    Overall this “alleged” incident (since currently one-sided story) is reminiscent of the case of Bijan C. Ghaisar, the 25-year-old American, was fatally shot by US Park Police after a vehicular chase in Virginia for Pete’s sake.

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      PS- The Feds clammed up on that prior case too….so we are likely stuck with one-sided view.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        Or Larry’s personal attacks rather than actually *reading* and going to research what the other person said. If one is so threatened by other views, you know they can’t deal with the concepts presented. I have Democratic Socialists, Greens, Dems, Repubs, conservatives, the whole gamut I check thru.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          what personal attacks? BS! calling biased opinion writing blatherbutts – if thats the worse Ad Hominem you can cite more power to you…

          I’m not threatened at all by other views – but I do recognize that they often cherry-pick and manupulate facts to pursue their own viewpoints.

          It’s funny you reject WaPo because you say they are biased but you believe in these guys who are even more biased !!!

          I prefer to see the source facts… links to them directly – not hand-waving… or citing the source as an agency without pointing to specific references.

          And truth be known – I’ll believe millions of black folks over the biased opinion writers who happen to be black any day.

          If millions of black people think we have a racist society – and a handlful of black opinion writers disagree – I’ll take the millions any day. See those PEW POLLS – they’re facts – not made up.

  34. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. If you read the Post, the newspaper did ask for comment from the Secret service and did not get one. I don’t understand your point? You automatically distrust what the women say?

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      The SS is not required to give a response. Considering the bias in the article, questions raised here as an example, why bother when a media outlet is going to twist words. Don’t even start with that line Peter. I already know where you are going with it. I have no basis to trust or distrust them, but I do have basis to distrust the news outlet that it came thru. That is the same Christine Ford/Justice Kavanaugh issue where the left said believe women until you have a conservative on hand.
      This is why the left has increasingly become less trustworthy.

  35. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. If you read the Post, the newspaper did ask for comment from the Secret service and did not get one. I don’t understand your point? You automatically distrust what the women say?

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      The SS is not required to give a response. Considering the bias in the article, questions raised here as an example, why bother when a media outlet is going to twist words. Don’t even start with that line Peter. I already know where you are going with it. I have no basis to trust or distrust them, but I do have basis to distrust the news outlet that it came thru. That is the same Christine Ford/Justice Kavanaugh issue where the left said believe women until you have a conservative on hand.
      This is why the left has increasingly become less trustworthy.

  36. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. That’s nutty. You say the facts are weak but the Post clearly did try to talk to the secret service. Then, despite your complaints, you claim the secret service is not required to respond. What is the newspaper supposed to do? Disbelieve the women because they are Black?

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      1) As usual result to ad hominem attacks. Is it any wonder why people don’t believe you?
      2) Same as with you are doing with me, why bother to talk/reason with someone when all they’re going to do is turn it into race baiting, which is exactly what you’re doing here. Many companies do NOT give you internal investigations or anything else on employees, even if they make mistakes OR they give platitudes to make them look good. Nicholas Sandmann …
      3) As I indicated, the news paper had the choice to manipulate the story. I’ve seen VP promote a left/progressive bent while ignoring local corruption. That’s a big reason why people left them. The news is not news, it is taking hit pieces and promoting an agenda rather than real news of all types.

  37. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn. That’s nutty. You say the facts are weak but the Post clearly did try to talk to the secret service. Then, despite your complaints, you claim the secret service is not required to respond. What is the newspaper supposed to do? Disbelieve the women because they are Black?

    1. V N Avatar
      V N

      1) As usual result to ad hominem attacks. Is it any wonder why people don’t believe you?
      2) Same as with you are doing with me, why bother to talk/reason with someone when all they’re going to do is turn it into race baiting, which is exactly what you’re doing here. Many companies do NOT give you internal investigations or anything else on employees, even if they make mistakes OR they give platitudes to make them look good. Nicholas Sandmann …
      3) As I indicated, the news paper had the choice to manipulate the story. I’ve seen VP promote a left/progressive bent while ignoring local corruption. That’s a big reason why people left them. The news is not news, it is taking hit pieces and promoting an agenda rather than real news of all types.

  38. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    At some point, 2nd Amendment comes in here. That’s part of the equation for law enforcement behavior.

    Overall this “alleged” incident (since currently one-sided story) is reminiscent of the case of Bijan C. Ghaisar, the 25-year-old American, was fatally shot by US Park Police after a vehicular chase in Virginia for Pete’s sake.

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      PS- The Feds clammed up on that prior case too….so we are likely stuck with one-sided view.

      1. V N Avatar
        V N

        Or Larry’s personal attacks rather than actually *reading* and going to research what the other person said. If one is so threatened by other views, you know they can’t deal with the concepts presented. I have Democratic Socialists, Greens, Dems, Repubs, conservatives, the whole gamut I check thru.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          what personal attacks? BS! calling biased opinion writing blatherbutts – if thats the worse Ad Hominem you can cite more power to you…

          I’m not threatened at all by other views – but I do recognize that they often cherry-pick and manupulate facts to pursue their own viewpoints.

          It’s funny you reject WaPo because you say they are biased but you believe in these guys who are even more biased !!!

          I prefer to see the source facts… links to them directly – not hand-waving… or citing the source as an agency without pointing to specific references.

          And truth be known – I’ll believe millions of black folks over the biased opinion writers who happen to be black any day.

          If millions of black people think we have a racist society – and a handlful of black opinion writers disagree – I’ll take the millions any day. See those PEW POLLS – they’re facts – not made up.

  39. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    “It ain’t over till it’s over.” Today, 08/06,the WaPo reported on Eleanor Holmes Norton’s indignant call to investigate what happened here. But this juicy tidbit was buried in the back end of that article:
    “In its statement Tuesday, the [Secret Service] said it was notified by D.C. police that a license plate reader had identified a vehicle near the White House as linked to a crime. The agency said it was told someone known to have driven the vehicle was wanted in several felonies and had been designated “armed and dangerous.” A traffic stop was made, and the occupants of the car were briefly detained until it was found they were not wanted by law enforcement, the Secret Service said in a statement issued through a spokesman. It said the welfare of everyone in the vehicle was a priority.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/eleanor-holmes-norton-demands-info-from-secret-service-after-dc-moms-said-officers-held-them-at-gunpoint-on-mall/2020/08/04/e044aadc-d69a-11ea-aff6-220dd3a14741_story.html
    So, I wonder how long it’s going to take to get straight answers from the DC police about what happened here?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      This is interesting info. Thanks for posting!

      so, if it was a license plate reader that spotted the car – it must not have been on a moving patrol car cuz it wold have made the stop, no? So was the license plate reader at a fixed location around the White House? And was that actually the car that had been used sometimes by a wanted person?

  40. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    “It ain’t over till it’s over.” Today, 08/06,the WaPo reported on Eleanor Holmes Norton’s indignant call to investigate what happened here. But this juicy tidbit was buried in the back end of that article:
    “In its statement Tuesday, the [Secret Service] said it was notified by D.C. police that a license plate reader had identified a vehicle near the White House as linked to a crime. The agency said it was told someone known to have driven the vehicle was wanted in several felonies and had been designated “armed and dangerous.” A traffic stop was made, and the occupants of the car were briefly detained until it was found they were not wanted by law enforcement, the Secret Service said in a statement issued through a spokesman. It said the welfare of everyone in the vehicle was a priority.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/eleanor-holmes-norton-demands-info-from-secret-service-after-dc-moms-said-officers-held-them-at-gunpoint-on-mall/2020/08/04/e044aadc-d69a-11ea-aff6-220dd3a14741_story.html
    So, I wonder how long it’s going to take to get straight answers from the DC police about what happened here?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      This is interesting info. Thanks for posting!

      so, if it was a license plate reader that spotted the car – it must not have been on a moving patrol car cuz it wold have made the stop, no? So was the license plate reader at a fixed location around the White House? And was that actually the car that had been used sometimes by a wanted person?

  41. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn? Any response to the news?

  42. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Vn? Any response to the news?

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