More Ruminations on Higher Education in Virginia

Radford University

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

James Sherlock has done a great service for this blog by starting a conversation on the future of higher education in the Commonwealth.  There are several paths that could be followed.

One of his contributions was identifying the schools that have been losing enrollment. I was not surprised that Longwood, Radford, and Mary Washington led the list. They are essentially going after the same students. I was aware that VCU enrollment was down. It may be the victim of its over-optimistic projections. However, its enrollment decline may have been temporary. The Richmond Times-Dispatch reports today that one the largest freshman classes in the school’s history arrived on campus this past weekend. I was surprised that the enrollment at Old Dominion has declined. Being the only major four-year institution in South Hampton Roads, one of the state’s growth leaders, and having a natural constituency with all the military installations in the area, one would have thought it was prepared for healthy growth. Alas, with the Virginian-Pilot being only a shadow of its former self, there are no media reports on the size of its incoming class this fall.

Jim’s proposal is intriguing and radical. He suggests turning one or more of the smaller colleges that are losing enrollment into “magnet” schools. They would offer junior- and senior-level courses in the most popular majors to students coming out of the community colleges. The idea has some merit. It would allow the senior colleges to specialize, thus being more efficient and cheaper. The total cost to students would be significantly less than a residential four-year institution. It would be radical, first of all, because it is a model that is not being used now. Furthermore, to be successful, there would need to be some central control (which institutions participate, which majors are offered at which colleges, etc.) and that goes against the tradition of Virginia’s model of decentralized higher education. Even if the concept were accepted, the logistical steps to implement would be daunting. For example, what happens to the “general education” (English, history, foreign languages, etc.) faculty whose positions would be eliminated?

In his comment to Jim Sherlock’s article, Jim Bacon points out the issue of decentralized higher education. He seems to support a market system in which each school finds its “niche.” For example, without explaining the basis for his conclusions, he claims, “Mary Washington appeals to progressive kids. Christopher Newport is secular, but hospitable to culturally conservative kids.”

Mr. Bacon is pining “for one of the smaller institutions to define itself as a small liberal arts school that believes in free speech and intellectual diversity.” I suspect that all of them claim they fit that description. As for me, I pine for a school to say, essentially, to parents: “We will provide your child with a good, solid liberal arts education at a cost significantly below what other schools cost. Your child will have good teachers and challenging courses. However, he or she will not have a fancy dorm room, recreational facilities that rival the fanciest private gyms, or a wide variety of meals catered by national companies.” (I know; I dream.)

Before Jim Sherlock beat me to it, I had been thinking of writing an article along these lines. However, my proposal to address the issue of declining enrollments at some institutions would have been much harsher. One or two of them would need to close.

Radford, Longwood, and Mary Washington, along with James Madison, had been teachers’ colleges for women before UVa and Virginia Tech admitted women. (Always the most progressive, William and Mary has been co-ed since 1918.) Of the three, Radford would be the most likely one to be chosen to close. It is only 20 minutes from Va. Tech, for which it once was its “sister” school. Inertia is probably the only justification for keeping it open. Nevertheless, any proposal to close a college would generate tremendous outrage among alumni, and members of the General Assembly would be loath to do it.

There is another avenue, which some readers of this blog are not going to like—more money. The amount of funding for higher education provided by the Commonwealth is significantly less than that provided by other states. A national study last year revealed that, on average, Virginia higher education students paid more than 55% of the cost of tuition, whereas the national average was about 42%. From another perspective, the State Council for Higher Education in Virginia (SCHEV) reports that, on average, students pay 46% of the total cost of higher education, and the state pays 54%. The state share is considerably below the state’s cost-share policy of 67%.

The Commonwealth began reducing its appropriations for higher ed during the Great Recession. In following years in which revenues were down and there were general state budget cuts, the colleges and universities, rather than reducing expenditures, made up for the cuts by raising tuition.

The state should significantly increase its general funding for higher education. However, the manner of providing that funding needs to change. Currently, the approach is to add incremental amounts to the funding already in place to begin with. Once the governor’s budget gets to the legislature, the lobbyists get to work. Each of the major institutions — UVa., Va Tech, W&M, and George Mason — have full-time lobbyists. Legislators serve as lobbyists for their alma maters. For example, Sen. Tommy Norment (R-James City), minority leader and senior member of the Senate Finance Committee, is a proud alumnus of VMI. Furthermore, he is a long-time, part-time, highly paid faculty member of the William and Mary law school. The result is that the rich schools get richer. Many observers of the system describe it as irrational.

A report produced last year by SCHEV concluded, “Virginia’s current base funding formula no longer serves as a strategic and rational mechanism for resource allocation.” It recommended using a tailored formula system of funding. “The best formula-driven approaches are sensitive to variation in institutional costs that are driven by differences in mission, program array, institutional size (including provisions that support the success of smaller institutions that are less able to benefit from scale economies), and characteristics of the student body.”

Accompanying any increased funding, there need to be changes in addition to how the funds are distributed. The schools need to lose some of their autonomy. Somehow, through SCHEV, the General Assembly, or some other means, the burgeoning administrative costs need to be examined. However, other areas need to be examined as well.

In the following paragraph, E&G refers to “educational and general fees (those fees related to instruction and supported by the state).” “Non-E&G costs can include athletics, recreational facilities, student health services, transportation on campus and debt service for non-instruction-related buildings.”

As reported by SCHEV, the average total cost for a full-time in-state undergraduate in 2022-2023 was $26,484. Of that amount, tuition and mandatory E&G fees accounted for $9,731, or 37%. Room and board and mandatory non-E&G fees accounted for the remaining 63%. Room and board, at $11,981, was more than tuition and mandatory E&G fees. The mandatory non-E&G fees accounted for 18% of the total cost. The last two categories (room and board and mandatory non-E&G fees) were the fastest increasing portion of the total cost. Room and board increased by 4.2% and mandatory non-E&G fees, 3.3%. If one is to control the increases in the cost of higher education, one needs to start with those categories.

Finally, the list of courses offered by the institutions of higher education needs to be policed more closely by SCHEV. Other than prestige, is there a compelling reason for Radford, Longwood, and Mary Washington to offer graduate programs? In many of the universities, the majors and programs in some areas have become so narrowly focused that they are little more than vocational training. For example, in at least one institution, one can major in “hospitality management” or “sport and recreation management.” Why should Virginia’s colleges be offering majors in how to run hotels or recreation departments? Let the Marriott Corporation and other hotel chains run their own management training programs.

Any attempt to reform higher education in Virginia is going to be exceedingly difficult. As Peter Blake, the executive director of SCHEV, said, “Funding a higher education system as diverse as Virginia’s requires compromise between many different stakeholders. It will always be difficult to get all involved to agree on a single set of guidelines.”


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72 responses to “More Ruminations on Higher Education in Virginia”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    It’s possible but not at all likely.

    I look for other similar things that have been accomplished and they do exist.

    Before VDOT created SmartScale, funding transportation projects was a mess and very political… with way more projects on the “list” than they ever would have money to do – ever.

    But they managed to covert to a system that takes a lot of the politics out of it and focuses on ranking projects by points for things like safety and cost-effectiveness…

    VDOT with GA help also managed to diversify their funding such that now only 1/3 comes from fuel taxes and another 1/3 from the general sales tax – and they have instituted a HUF – highway users fee for electric and hybrid cars.

    They also have downsized state employees and turned over more and more of the actual work to contractors who are monitored by VDOT.

    VDOT is not Higher Ed, but VDOT has undergone significant changes successfully and I think it’s possible for Higher Ed also but it will need some leaders and architects like VDOT had.

    And the state can play a significant role by deciding what they will fund and not…carrots/sticks…

    But at the end of the day, many institutions probably won’t want to lose their independence and autonomy and probably would choose to close than become part of a “State System” with the state deciding what they can offer or not… who they can hire and not, etc…

    I saw this which is maybe loosely related… it talks about which states produce the most Doctors… Virginia is way down the list even with UVA and VCU:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/08/18/states-most-artists-writers/

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/49de480acb73cde5aba7d6b99998145cff5c37644841a6c947832cc59e34058a.jpg

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      VDOT is an integrated organization with control over the roads other than the cities and Henrico and Arlington Counties. In other words, highly centralized.

      Yet, it took decades for VDOT and the GA to (somewhat) get their act together?

      How long was the gas tax frozen in cents per gallon while inflation kept eating away at what that tax could purchase? 15 years? 20 years? 25 years?

      Meanwhile, the fact that all of the sky-high non-bridge tolls are in NoVa while General Fund monies are used for non-NoVa road building (to avoid tolls) tells me that the scoring system is a croc.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        There are non-bridge tolls in the Richmond area and, I believe, in Tidewater, as well.

        The use of GF to widen I-64 from Henrico to James City County does not invalidate the scoring system. It is a case of the politicians reverting to their old ways. The project did not qualify for funding under the Smart Scale system, so they overrode the system and provided GF for the project.

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          Check the cost of those toll roads in Richmond and Tidewater vs NoVa. I specifically cited “sky-high” tolls.

          Right, the politicians are more than happy to use any taxpayer money available to build out free road capacity in Richmond whether it meets their supposed needs tests or not. But NoVa? Oh no – $18 tolls are just fine. And NoVa’s politicians? Not a peep.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I-66 IBW first day it opened was $43 dollars to get to D.C. Fine and dandy if your a Fed and they reimburse you.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I’ve always wondered how the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority can run toll roads that cost a fraction of what the ones in Virginia cost.

            Must be that northern efficiency.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Pennsylvania Turnpike? 😉

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Even the Pennsylvania Turnpike is cheaper than any toll road in NoVA.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Probably true but not at all impressed with the maintenance of that toll road…

            There are toll roads all over the country these days … what’s new and especially hated
            is the variable tolls based on congestion. Pretty sure the NoVa tolls are minimal at
            non-rush hour, no?

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            ” Pretty sure the NoVa tolls are minimal at
            non-rush hour, no?”

            They’re excessive even at 1am.

            “Probably true but not at all impressed with the maintenance of that toll road…”

            I saw no issues with the 160 miles of it that I drove 2 years ago.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            how much? less than a dollar a mile.. right?

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            You think a dollar a mile is a reasonable rate to use a congestion-priced toll road at 1am????

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            don’t take it if it does not benefit you… right? but yes.. I’ve seen roads in other states
            that cost that much….all the time… even… I paid $48 for a toll in Colorado a couple
            of years ago… I had EZ-pass on the dash but they did not take it… They got the plate
            and I got the bill in the mail….

            The whole entire point of the congestion tolls in Va is to encourage HOV – free ride ..
            then they can make money on the ones that don’t want to use transit or use the
            original free lanes… people make choices… it works not that different from the
            airlines… you wanna go at high demand times.. you pay…. wanna save.. go on other
            days and times… It’s the way the roads ought to work IMO but I admit, I’m in the
            minority… I spent 34 yrs carpooling so not understanding why folks with the same
            commute every day can’t or won’t … We simply do not have (and will never have),
            enough road capacity for your or me to go get on the roads anytime we want. That
            day has gone. That ship has sailed. I-95 on a Friday before a holiday is downright ghastly
            but no shortage of folks willing to do it… NFM – Not For Me! We specifically plan with
            the road situation in mind from the get go.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            maybe more than 2 for me but I saw not good stuff… including potholes…

            I’ve been all over the country in most of the urban areas… most all of them have tolls
            of some sort…and they’ve been around awhile also… older than NoVa tolls, no?

          11. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, they have a lot more experience running toll roads than Virginia does. Virginia could learn something from them, but won’t.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Virginia is actually on the forefront with variable electronic tolls… no?

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yea, really innovative sticking them on an existing road.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        You can ride for free on the toll roads.

        look at the 6 yr plan and tell me that NoVa does not gets it’s share of projects:

        https://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/allProjects.aspx

        this has been the problem before SmartScale, NoVa would play politics more successfully than other districts.

        Now, it’s a much more level playing field.

        The issue with the interstates in NoVa is that they cannot be widened. I be even you will acknowledge that. And who is going to support tearing down businesses and whole neighborhoods to build more roads in NoVa? It’s not VDOT that’s the problem. It’s the folks in NoVa who want more roads but at others expense.

        You can to use and manage what you do have – that means tolls to basically work the same way that higher fares work for airlines to shift demand to lower demand periods. It’s free market thing and the toll roads were originally proposed by the Reason Foundation!

    2. Teddy007 Avatar

      1/7th of all medical residencies are in the greater NYC area. Some of those states do not even have a medical school.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I just assumed when the chart said “produce more doctors” it meant medical schools… no?

        1. Teddy007 Avatar

          Yes, that is what is understood but also includes D.O. Still four states have no medical schools. What is amazing is the states that have been opening new medical schools that those that have not.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so where does Virginia really stand?

    3. …turned over more and more of the actual work to contractors who are monitored by VDOT.

      VDOT’s oversight of contractors currently provides, shall we say, ample opportunity for improvement.

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Worth noting that I’ve *never* seen a VDOT truck at any paving project. Who is making sure the work is being done correctly?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          They actually do show up to inspect… seen them do that.

          Take a look at the cams for the northbound I-95 river crossing. Done by contractor… VDOT trucks there all the time!

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            At the time this Google Street View photo was taken(2021), this VDOT-maintained road had been repaved 2 years prior.

            The damage has still not been fixed and the pavement is now sinking.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/17b0ba628fe36ba9a191e9cff4d9c835fca4f2636a0d256e41cd32d15186af78.png

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Take a look at the VDOT 6y plan… almost 5000 projects… everything from tunnels t interchanges to simple pipe replacements… Most of it seems to get done and online…

        https://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/allProjects.aspx

        and they keep track of that also and make it public:

        https://dashboard.virginiadot.org/

        VDOT is a long way from perfect.. they got their share of things that need to improve but bigger picture, I think they do a decent job overall… as they say.. your mileage may vary! 😉

    4. …turned over more and more of the actual work to contractors who are monitored by VDOT.

      VDOT’s oversight of contractors currently provides, shall we say, ample opportunity for improvement.

  2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    I am sure Peter Blake is a good man. But if he is looking for “agreement on a single set of guidelines”, he, and SCHEV are wasting their time and ours. Leadership in out of the box thinking, not unreachable consensus, is required. Or Virginia higher ed will continue slouching towards the cliff.

  3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    I am sure Peter Blake is a good man. But if he is looking for “agreement on a single set of guidelines”, he, and SCHEV are wasting their time and ours. Leadership in out of the box thinking, not unreachable consensus, is required. Or Virginia higher ed will continue slouching towards the cliff.

  4. Radford and Longwood and, to an extent, Mary Washington, still have the reputation of formerly womens-only undergraduate admissions; it takes a long time for old attitudes to fade away and a new experience to become dominant among the alumni. Plus, they have smaller enrollments and are therefore more sensitive to the effects of demographics and, of course in these statistics, the pandemic.. Any recent visitor (my own experience is with Longwood) cannot help but be amazed at the recent physical transformation of these campuses through intense capital investment – emphasis on “recent” – and they offer the residential four year undergraduate experience in a smaller-town setting which many applicants want. My gut feeling is that what we’re seeing with the undergraduate admissions at those schools is more likely a lag than a permanent decline.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      You have a good point. James Madison was able to shed its reputation as a former women’s college.

      1. The exception that proves the rule!

  5. Scott A. Surovell Avatar
    Scott A. Surovell

    Don’t forget about my legislation to help levelling the playing field by helping to balance out the university’s endowment funds.

    https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?231+sum+SB1461

    We still have not determined what to do with VA529’s $1B+ surplus.

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      I should know this but I don’t. How does the state generate a surplus in 529 accounts? Aren’t they like 401(k)’s – the money belongs to the investor?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        they are more encumbered than 401(k)s and I don’t think you can get it back without a big penalty if they are not used.

        If you have such a pot of money, might be better to park it somewhere where there is more flexibility in it’s use than a 529.

      2. Scott A. Surovell Avatar
        Scott A. Surovell

        First, there is an actuarial surplus from the defined contribution plan. Tuition costs didn’t rise as fast as anticipated and/or families didn’t choose as expensive schools as anticipated.

        Second, VA was one of the first states out of the box with a 529 Plan when they were authorized and partnered with American Funds who marketed the plan all over the USA. The bulk of customers are out-of-state people and VA529 receives management fees.

        The two coupled together have produced a $1.1B+/- (depending who you ask) excess that the actuaries say is not needed to maintain solvency under conservative assumptions.

    2. No offense, but I’m not interested in providing scholarships to people who intend to spend eight years pursuing post-graduate studies, no matter who they are or what they are studying.

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    “Back in 1908, I think that was the room number…” — Redd Foxx

    The lead in for a joke by a comedian, but for higher education in Virginia, a watershed year. It was that year when the State was faced with societal needs that couldn’t be met simply by the existing structure of schools, and k-12. The answer was Longwood (teachers), JMU (nurses), and MWU (typists, secretaries?). We needed trained women, so we built schools for them in same way that VMI created soldiers (canon fodder), and Tech created whatever A&Ms create.

    Worked too, for awhile, because that was all we needed, but in less than 35 years those schools morphed into pretty much the same structure and offered a broader range of degrees for the greater needs of society — their specialized purposes were OBE. WWII pretty much changed that. Rosie the Riveter was needed to design and build torpedoes, radios, radar…. ah, and computers. The Constitution and SCOTUS ended segregated and sex based public education and we have what we have now — the modern Virginia State college.

    Depth, Breadth, and Scale — Found this while perusing for information on faculty grow at UVa. It claims two other reports coexist with it. Haven’t looked at the other two, and haven’t but barely scratched this one. https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt450.pdf
    I assume y’all have seen it.

    Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly of Occupational Training — Yes, you can get a degree in Hotel and Leisure Management from a Business Dept. One of my closest friends got her degree in exactly that 40 years ago from a Virginia State school and she probably created whatever Marriott is today, or Hilton. I can’t remember for whom she went to work in 1983, but she spent 20 years rising to the top at corporate before leaving and buying her own resort in the Bahamas. You can also get a degree specializing in Cyber Security, and hundreds of other areas of study that didn’t exist 40 years ago, Hell, 10 years ago. If we relied on industry to train its own, the Catskill resort in “Dirty Dancing” would be all we have, and you’d still be using cash and writing checks.

    Reintroducing the non-Newtonian Fluid to its Malleable Container — it ain’t going back. We are going to have to live with the system we’ve built. Moreover, we going to have to fund it, and harder still protect it from political demagoguery, and it will continue to “I just growed”. People are our product. If we want State colleges to produce the best product, the first thing to do is end BoV political cronyism.

  7. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    Enrollment (as a factor in income) is only a part of the fiscal picture. Before we start talking closing Virginia state universities, shouldn’t we first see if they are actually struggling financially?

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Again, in those long ago SCHEV discussions, the way to really get under the school leaders’ skin was to talk about applying real business-style metrics to their operations. Productivity. Graduation efficiency. Cost per unit produced. They can be (and were) rich as Midas but still do poorly on those. They also got very antsy with discussions about who their customers were.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Over in the former western Virginia students are walking out in protest. 45 million dollar shortfall at WVU. Many humanities programs and staff eliminated. Looks like the WVU president is trying to steer the school away from the cliff ahead.
      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/west-virginia-students-stage-a-walkout-monday/ar-AA1fA9Ru

    3. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Yes, of course we should. However, that analysis should begin early enough to avoid the semi-chaos now going on at WVU.

  8. Teddy007 Avatar

    If one wants to put the work in, why not look up the top five majors at each university and see if any of them really fit into the liberal arts college lane versus the local economic development university or the university of last resort.

  9. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    Bridgewater College announced a 25,000 dollar tuition cut. Maybe if the others did the same they would see an increase in applications.

  10. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    “Being the only major four-year institution in South Hampton Roads, one of the state’s growth leaders …”

    Why does that matter? Do a lot of ODU students commute to campus from home? VT’s campus is in Blacksburg. If population density and growth of the area surrounding a campus was a big factor in success of the school, UVa and Notre Dame should both be failing.

    ” For example, what happens to the “general education” (English, history, foreign languages, etc.) faculty whose positions would be eliminated?”

    They would lose their jobs – just like what happens to employees in the private sector who have the misfortune of working for a badly managed organization that allows spiraling costs to price it out of the market.

    “Nevertheless, any proposal to close a college would generate tremendous outrage among alumni, and members of the General Assembly would be loath to do it.”

    Great. Then the alumni and the General Assembly should address the spiraling costs of attending these schools which make them unaffordable.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Not to mention CNU, sheesh. Last I check, yes, ODU serves a lot of local students and part time living in the area.

      If he thinks closing a school would generate stink then imagine renaming, oh say, William & Mary to UVa-Williamsburg.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        pie-in-the-sky stuff!

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          It’s all pie-in-the-sky. When paper is your money, you’ll believe anything. 😁

    2. Teddy007 Avatar

      At both Old Dominion and Christopher Newport, psychology is the top major. At both universities, more than 10% of the student body is majoring in psychology. Why? And what do the graduates do with such degrees.

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        Good question as well as … are all graduates with whatever degree equal credit risks? In the real world outside of government, a lender would offer a lower rate loan to an electrical engineer than to an anthropology major.

        1. Teddy007 Avatar

          On the basis on risk, a freshman starting out in electrical engineering is a greater risk since there is less chance that the EE major will finish with the degree.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Engineering programs typically put weed out courses earlier in the course work. Those being the math course work. You don’t see any specific EE courses till you’re a Junior.

          2. Teddy007 Avatar

            The actually do weed out less and just make it harder to ever start the major. It is called fire walling and is a way that more prestigious universities can protect themselves from affirmative action admits. In the Gratz V Bollinger lawsuit, it was shown that just because the University of Michigan was admitting blacks and Hispanics using lower standards, the College of Engineering and the College of Business were still not admitting the affirmative admit students. This is used as an example of how the affluent protect themselves because the connect and affluent parents will know what it takes to get admitted to such majors, programs, degrees, or colleges when the first in the family to attend college will not.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “The actually do weed out less and just make it harder to ever start the major. It is called fire walling and is a way that more prestigious universities can protect themselves from affirmative action admits. In the Gratz V Bollinger lawsuit, it was shown that just because the University of Michigan was admitting blacks and Hispanics using lower standards, the College of Engineering and the College of Business were still not admitting the affirmative admit students”

            That’s a non-sequitur, the two items aren’t linked.

            “This is used as an example of how the affluent protect themselves because the connect and affluent parents will know what it takes to get admitted to such majors, programs, degrees, or colleges when the first in the family to attend college will not.”

            That is absolutely untrue. If you are accepted to the University, typically if you don’t have the grades or entrance scores the Engineering School would like you won’t be accepted to their College of Engineering (unable to declare) until you’ve made it through probations (the weeding out courses).

          4. Teddy007 Avatar

            It all depends on the university. Some universities like Johns Hopkins accepts students to college and programs. Thus, a student could get accepted to the College of Engineering but not to the biomedical sciences program. AT UC-San Diego, the number of students accepted to each program is capped, thus, one can get accepted to the university but cannot major in any engineering program. At a school like Georgia State, one can major in anything but if one does not make certain grades in certain classes, then one is out and an university counselor will help the student find another major. At other schools, one is not considered to have a major unless one competes certain prerequisites with certain grades. It all depends on the university. Also, universities are good at hiding what they are doing to fire wall off programs. AS the book “Parenting to a Degree” pointed out, the Indiana University College of Business has prerequisites for entering freshmen and makes it nearly impossible to become a businesses major after starting as something else.

            University have a number of ways to protect their US News rankings and avoiding weed out courses is one of them since universities are punished for those.

            Also, there is no reason to cut and paste what is already written to make a response. All it does it make it harder to read.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “University have a number of ways to protect their US News rankings and avoiding weed out courses is one of them since universities are punished for those.”

            US News ranking are subjective and don’t add any real value, if you’re basing your school choice on them, you’re bound for failure.

            https://thecollegesolution.com/15-reasons-to-ignore-u-s-news-world-reports-college-rankings/

            https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/16/columbia-whistleblower-us-news-rankings-michael-thaddeus

            Your comment is again, nothing but a non-sequitur.

            All Universities have “weeding out courses” people don’t like them, but for example if you can’t do Calculus as a Freshmen you won’t be able to do Laplace Transforms as a Junior and therefore don’t belong in the EE track.

            Sure there is, it indicates what exactly is being responded too. There is no structure to your comment, it’s all over the place without a cogent thought. You jump around so without a reference, a reply wouldn’t make sense.

          6. Teddy007 Avatar

            Except that the rankings affect how potential students, students, their parents, and other view the school. That is why the universities all try to game the system. And at the more selective universities, most of the students had calculus in high school. And the universities would rather use fire walls instead of weed out classes so that their 6 year graduation rates are not too low. Many universities have gotten much more creative than using weed out classes. See

            https://d1y8sb8igg2f8e.cloudfront.net/documents/Promise-and-Peril_4.pdf

            If one refuses to face data or reality and insist that everything still works like it did in 1980, then one is doing to have problems understanding.

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Except that the rankings affect how potential students, students, their parents, and other view the school.”

            Clearly you didn’t read what you were provided. Weed out classes are the norm in STEM majors, that is now and always has been the case. Examples of weed out courses are Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, Thermodynamics, Signal Processing & Digital Design, just to name a few. Those are all 100 or 200 level classes and are required to be taken.

            Unless you test out of something prior to, you’re talking Calculus in college for an Engineering track. EE’s required Calc I, Calc II, Calc III and Matrix Mathematics at a minimum. The concepts learned in those courses are built upon through other courses work about system and control. We were doing Diffy Q’s for a 200 level class.

            “If one refuses to face data or reality and insist that everything still works like it did in 1980, then one is doing to have problems understanding.”

            Your link is irrelevant and doesn’t add any validity to your statements.

            You’re not providing data or reality (reality is I Graduated with a EE after the 1980’s, reality is I’ve taken the FE). What are you quals for your statements about Engineering?

          8. Teddy007 Avatar

            Now matter how many times one tries to claim that everything works just like it did in 1980, universities work very hard to not have weed out classes anymore by limiting the number of students who can major in a certain field. Here is a quote from UC-San Diego College of Engineering. https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/academics/undergraduate-majors

            Admission to UC San Diego as a freshman does not guarantee admission to engineering majors at the Jacobs School of Engineering. Due to high demand, all engineering majors at UC San Diego are considered “capped” for incoming freshman applying for enrollment, which means additional screening procedures are in place. Admissions for all incoming students to UC San Diego is managed by the campus-wide UC San Diego admissions office which has a capped majors page.

            If one did not take calculus in high school, then one is not majoring in engineering at UC-San Diego (or UCLA, UC-Berkley, etc). The university cannot afford to have students get two years into a major and then decide that it is too tough. Keep up with the 211st century.

          9. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Now matter how many times one tries to claim that everything works just like it did in 1980, universities work very hard to not have weed out classes anymore by limiting the number of students who can major in a certain field. Here is a quote from UC-San Diego College of Engineering. https://jacobsschool.ucsd.e…”

            I don’t know where you’re arriving at some arbitary date of the 1980’s, but it’s irrelevant and nothing I stated is dated. It’s current fact.

            Your link doesn’t validate your claim, nor does it invalidate anything I’ve stated. It rather reinforces it.

            “If one did not take calculus in high school, then one is not majoring in engineering at UC-San Diego (or UCLA, UC-Berkley, etc). The university cannot afford to have students get two years into a major and then decide that it is too tough. Keep up with the 211st [sic] century.”

            Please feel free to point where I said otherwise, it’s noted you’ve reverted to strawman and have thus been unwilling to discuss your qualifications to even speak on the matter. I think it can be confidently stated, you’ve not attended a School and Engineering and therefore your musing on the topic is devoid of any form of facts.

            High School Calculus =/= college calculus, you’re still required to take it. Along with biology, chemistry and physics. Unless you took AP or college credit courses in high school, you’re taking them again in college.

          10. Teddy007 Avatar

            I guess when one insists on intentionally misunderstanding someone, ,then one has to use insults and block quotes to hide that facts. You are still operating like it is the 1980’s when any student could major in anything and the colleges and departments would make a class hard and give out lots of D’s and F’s to run off students. IN 2020, what colleges do is identify the students who have a good chance of passing the really hard classes and only let those students major in the “hard majors”. Thus, the weedout is not done in the first and second year classes as was done in the 1980’s but is done by limiting admission and demanding much better college prep in high school. Thus, calculus one no longer weeds out anyone since all of the engineering majors have had calculus in high school. Those students still take calculus but manage to pass it. And many students who are on the STEM track in high school skip calculus one in college.

            The use of pre-screening is why the state flagship universities have much higher graduate’s rates than in the 1980’s. The term of art in 2020’s is firewall and not weed out like it was decades ago. An engineering major still takes all of the hard classes. However, unprepared students are not even allowed to start majoring in engineering.

            You are probably foolish enough to believe that people meet their spouses in college, that women are looking for their MRS degree, and that colleges are majority male. Get with the times.

            And please stop with the pointless cut and paste. Everyone can read what was written in the thread. It adds nothing but just makes one look foolish.

      2. What do they do with such degrees? Well, they get an education in how to get into each others’ heads. My question back to you, is that an improvement?

      3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Psychology is one of the most popular majors in the country. In addition to the general value of a liberal arts education, psychology majors are prepared for any number of careers in business or otherwise. https://acu.edu/2020/11/17/how-a-psychology-degree-helps-in-business-hidden-benefits-and-potential-careers/

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          I remember a large number of friends from VPI majoring in psych. Most of them are big shots now. Turned out to be a stepping stone to law school, masters degree, or a PHD.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I was thinking about that also… what are the stepping stones to a degree in medicine? Same?

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            It’s a stepping stone, because a 4 year Psych degree is in a word worthless. It qualifies you to be a group home counselor or if you take the cert, a social worker.

            My sibling paid out of state tuition at a Private non-denominational school for that very degree. She’s a librarian now, because it was worthless.

  11. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Let’s see. TMac took office in early 2014 and I was off SCHEV that summer, so I’ve been off nine years. All of these issues were commonly discussed in those meetings, and nine years later nothing has changed. I don’t sense any pressures from the general public that will cause any change. Inertia still rules. Interesting topics, though.

    The legislature seizing control of privately funded endowments. That is a truly frightening prospect, Surovell. Another reason I hope (perhaps a faint hope) you find yourself in the minority party in January. 🙂 (Now if we want to tweak their tax rules to goose them into using the money better, there we can talk.)

  12. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Here’s an idea. Rename. UVa-Wise, UVa-Charlottesville, UVa-Williamsburg, UVa-Fredericksburg, …
    Put it all under one umbrella, set up a single BoV where the members are apportioned to various groups of interested parties, e.g., a couple to the Governor, a couple to the alumni, a couple to the various faculty senates, yada, yada,…

    The only loser will be the NCAA. One football team, one basketball team, and only one set of over compensated coaches. The students will save a ton on fees. All those excess stadiums can be turned in classrooms and dorms. Build a mega-stadium that holds more than Michigan and Penn State combined near Richmond.

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