Shades of Henry George

When voters go to the polls in November, they may have macaca on their minds, but they will have an opportunity to vote on three amendments to the Virginia constitution. One of the more obscure measures would expand the rights of localities to offer tax breaks to encourage redevelopment of blighted areas. It’s obscure but potentially significant.

According to Pamela Stallsmith with the Times-Dispatch:

“Localities need additional tools to clear out blight and provide better land use for some of the urban areas,” said state Sen. John S. Edwards, D-Roanoke, who sponsored the amendment. Many urban areas have empty lots where buildings have been torn down and not replaced. “The thought was if you can give a real estate tax break for the [new] structure versus the land itself, then you could encourage developers to invest in urban areas where there are vacant lots,” Edwards said.

The logic behind this idea resembles the argument of Henry George. The 19th-century writer/economist is best remembered for his proposal to tax land, not the improvements upon it. But George wouldn’t have restricted his schema just to blighted areas.

Under a Henry George system of taxation, landowners would not be penalized with taxes for adding value to their land, as they are now. The overall tax burden would be the same — but it would be shifted to the land, not the buildings. That would increase the burden on landowners who let their ladn sit vacant or blighted, perhaps speculating that the value would increase. Because their carrying costs on that land would be considerably higher, they would be incentivized to quickly convert the land to its highest and best use.

While people dispute the value of higher density, I don’t know anyone who contends that Swiss cheese-style development, which leaves vacant holes in areas served by roads and infrastructure, is a good idea. One way to tame the rising cost of local government is to fill in those holes.

Fellow Bacon’s Rebellion columnist Ed Risse has argued that Virginia cities and urbanized parts of counties should switch to Henry George taxation across the board, not just for blighted areas. But Risse offers a twist: what he calls “reverse Henry George.” Risse would draw a “Clear Edge” around those urbanized areas. Inside the Clear Edge — cities and urbanized counties — only land would be taxed. Economic forces would move to build on the vacant land and redevelop under-utilized land.

Outside the Clear Edge, in Risse’s scheme, improvements would be taxed. This would relieve the burden on households who depend upon land-intensive farming and forestry for a living. And it would discourage — not prevent, just discourage — developers from plopping subdivisions in the middle of rural areas, miles from public services.

I have yet to hear any persuasive arguments against the idea. A Henry George scheme would help accomplish many of the aims of the Smart Growth community without imposing a new regulations and hiring administrators to enforce them. It would rely upon market forces, not big government.

If Virginians approve this constitutional amendment, they won’t be adopting a Henry George arrangement, but they’ll be accepting the underlying logic. Perhaps at that time, Virginia would be ready for Risse’s idea to go mainstream.


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19 responses to “Shades of Henry George”

  1. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Higher density is always of more value, I don’t think that is in dispute, and it is a point EMR frequently makes.

    That doesn’t mean that higher density equates to a better quality of life, more efficiency, lower taxes, less congestion, better health, lower crime, less friction with our neighbors, more beauty, more churchgoing, less obesity, or anything else that makes our life pleasant and livable.

    I’d suggest that it is a U shaped curve: there are places at both ends of the spectrum where more density may not be desirable, even if it is more valuable. Nobody ever said that our vlaue systems make any sense, let alone that they are uniform across population and time.

    Any attempt to impose a two sided tax structure such as Risse proposes boils down to an attempt to impose certain values.

    If someone owns a vacant city block and chooses not to build on it, that is his business. He may very wll have a valid business reason to hold it as it is. Presumably he is doing it because it will have a better outcome for him at some later time, and if that happens the benefits will pass to the community in the form of more taxes later.

    I don’t think the government has the expertise to decide that they would be better off with some taxes sooner, and I don’t think they have the authority if decide if it works aganst the owners interests. Especially if that thinking results in another KELO.

    If our landowner keeps it in an unkempt or unsafe or ugly manner, then that is our business and we should have some minimum standards in place. Anyone or any group who wants to build there is free to make him an offer for the property, and make the whole problem their business. Anyone or any group who wants the farmer not to build is free to do the same with their money.

    A Henry George scheme would rely on government to decide where the boundaries between the tax regimes falls, in which case the free market argument is pure baloney. The way to tax property is to tax the income it generates. George would say that land and natural resources are given freely by Nature rather than being products of human labor. Land is mostly equivalent, and what makes some more valuable than other is the effort individuals and government apply to make it so, and it is this that should be taxed. The reason this should be done, according to George, is to prevent undue profit from being made off of a scarce and god-given resource.

    In other words, you don’t own the land. That is going to be a hard sell in a market economy.

    Where he missed the boat was in not realizing that it is also possible to make undue profit by controlling land you don’t own. Overall, the best way to prevent this is to have strong property rights that allow people the most opportunity to apply their oen efforts to make the land more valuable, and also give them the tools to defend it.

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    There was no zoning in the United States when Henry George came up with his ideas. Today, restrictive zoning is the most significant cause of sprawl and the housing affordability crisis.

    There are hundreds of acres of vacant land in Fairfax County at an interchange along the Dulles Toll Road next to Reston’s employment corridor. Some of the land was condemned to build the Dulles Toll Road and the interchange. More land is going to be taken for facilities needed for the Phase 1 Metro extension to Wiehle.

    For decades the landowners have refused to develop the land as zoned, because they believe to do so would be a waste of a scarce resource. The old archaic zoning mandates housing with large two acre lots. Building 10,000+ square foot mega-mansions on super sized lots for the elite rich is not smart growth, wise use, or the “highest and best” use by any rational social or moral standard.

    The landowners are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in real estate taxes. Should the landowners be required to pay even higher taxes in an effort to force them to build as zoned?

    Zoning restrictions on home building destroyed anything approaching a free market economy in housing a long time ago. Some owners of vacant land are trying to do something about that.

  3. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    There is more to the Story:

    Anon 3:04 makes a good point concerning the negative impact of traditional zoning regulations.

    However, this is only part of the story. It is the entire municipal planning process that is out a whack and in need of Fundamental Change. See Backgrounder “The Role of Municipal Planning in the Creation of Dysfunctional Human Settlement Patterns.” at db4.dev.baconsrebellion.com

    The problems with zoning (and with comprehensive plans, subdivision regulations, etc,.) should not be used as an excuse not to pursue the Henry George tax strategy. That would be like chopping down all the trees because someone else has girdled a few of them.

    In addition, there is more to the application of intelligent strategies to improve settlement pattern than just “threshold” Henry George.

    Any land tax should be based on the level of service already provided by the public. That means only those land owners sitting on already serviced land would pay much higher taxes.

    Stepping back anther step, the Henry George system needs to be implemented based on new, region-wide, REALLY comprehensive plans for functional and transportable settlement patterns. See “The Shape of Richmond’s Future,” 16 Feb 2004 at db4.dev.baconsrebellion.com.

    Even more important is a fair an equitable allocation of all location variable costs. This includes not just the items currently part of the municipal budget but all of both “public” and “private” services and goods as outlined in The Shape of the Future. This will be the topic of an upcoming column.

    EMR

  4. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    A Henry George system does not need to be based on one boundary. It can be a series of concentric areas with each having tax rates based on the percent of the tax base that is land and the percent that is structure.

  5. Ray Hyde Avatar

    All of the above issues would be resolved by simply charging according to the income the land produces.

    Landowners under uncertainty as in the Dulles case wouldn’t pay anything, which would be an incentive for the government to get off its duff. Homeowners wouldn’t be charged for imputed income they have not yet earned. No extensive planning system that is bound to be wrong, inequitable, and fail is required. And there is no bogus locational costs to compute, which would also be changing every year.

    You wouldn’t have to map a buch of concentric areas that aren’t conentric and have little to do with service costs. I’m not sure I see that a 3000 sq ft house on a half acre lot should be charged more or less than if it is on a 3/4 acre lot, or vice versa. It makes no sense to me. The services are more or less the same.

    The tax structure should be simple and related to ability to pay. Any other construct simply means that some people will eventually be put in a position they can’t afford.

    That is true whether you are talking about TMT’s complaint that Fairfax taxes have gone up sixteent times as fast as income, or whether you are talking about my complaint that there is only one vision for the farm – someone else’s vision.

    It all boils down to screwing around with other people’s lives in order to get what you want or promote your agenda, and making is sound like it is fair and equitable.

    Fortunately we don’t have to worry about Georges precepts: except for a few reactionaries and communists, George’s ideas mostly went out of fashion a century ago and have been roundly discounted by economists and politicians.

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “Localities need additional tools to clear out blight….”

    gee.. why doesn’t this walk, talk and act like Kelo? If this is a distinction it seems subtle.. at least to me… are we wordsmithing?

    wouldn’t it be better to offer incentives like TIFs or denser rezones or a wider variety of acceptable uses .. to PARTNER in redevelopment of infill?

    Offer explicit infill opportunities to parcel owners or even encourage re-developoment opportunities for investors – as opposed to something with clear potential for abuse.. like blight designation authority.

    I think govt SHOULD have the right to incentivize even if that means that some owners of land just happen to be in the right place and the right time just as they might be with water/sewer expansions…. while other owners just are not as fortunate. Someone told me once that unfortunate circumstances are just that… and do not require pentance by others.

    On the flip side – “Takings” ARE accepted in general by most everyone – even landowners in terms of the basic concept. The arguement is over criteria.

    For instance, if folks DO believe that VDOT should have the right to condemn land for a public need – then they have signed on to the concept of justified “takings” and the argument then is only over what other criteria are also acceptable.

    And let’s be clear – VDOT also “takes” without just compensation in many cases. They’ll buy ONLY what they need for r/w and leave the remaining property in a stranded condition where it’s longer term potential has been seriously compromised and/or destroyed.. even though the landowner still has title to it – what they own… is not what they had even with the “fair market” dollars for part of the parcel.

  7. Toomanytaxes Avatar
    Toomanytaxes

    Interesting concept. I fear, however, how it could and would be manipulated in Fairfax County to the detriment of the average citizen.

    One problem is, obviously, the lack of public infrastruture necessary to support whatever the lobbyists could persuade Fairfax County’s supervisors constituted the highest and best use for land. And then there’s the problem of paying for the infrastructure. How would we ensure that we did not receive the bill for the infrastructure to support new urban centers all over Fairfax County?

    Another relevant factor that has been recently identified by citizens groups is a pattern of underassessing properties with higher market values. I’ve seen lists of properties comparing market value by sales price and assessed value. It appears that, in many instances, the properties with the highest sales prices receive tax assessments that are a lower percentage of the sales prices than are lower priced properties. For example, a house that sold at $2 million might be assessed at $1.4 million (70%), while a property selling at $800,000 might be assessed at $720,000 (90%). The analysis is not statistically valid, but is still sufficient enough to cause concern and distrust.

    Similarly, Fairfax County and, perhaps, all of Virginia assesses commercial property differently than residential property. When a commercial property’s rental income decreases, its tax assessment follows suit, even when the property sells for much more than the assessed value. On the other hand, any ordinary household’s income might go down (and average household income did decrease for several years in Fairfax County according to county budget data), there’s no similar protection. There is a growing level of concern about the fairness of this process. How would we be assured that taxing land only wouldn’t make things even worse.

    Ed, bottom line, given the lack of trust in Fairfax County officials on land use issues and the number of unknowns, I suspect many residents of the county would vote “no” on this proposal.

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think TMT has hit on something that concerns many. It seems that many folks and especially public officials believe that “growth” is healthy and economically beneficial. I’ve yet to see a jurisdiction that tells prospective new businesses to not locate in that jurisdiction because the new jobs will require new infrastructure and there is no way assign the infrastructure costs to the new residents.

    Most developers and many public officials included elected apparently believe that growth serves a legitimate public benefit therefore the cost of the infrastructure should be borne by all residents and not just the new folks.

    Localities in VA and their public officials have routinely approved growth and then at the same time blamed VDOT for not keeping us with the road infrastructure needs. It didn’t matter that VDOT didn’t have the funds; it was not their problem (in their own minds).

    Many officials believe that you approve the growth…then wait until the public is fed up and is willing to pay increased taxes to provide the necessary infrastructure.

    Nothing demonstrated this more than the reaction of some of the Loudoun County supervisors when VDOT told the public the truth about what 30,000 new homes would do to the roads.

    What came across from the supervisors was that VDOT was “meddling” in their own affairs and unecessarily “alarming” the voting public.

    But the public has only to blame themselves for voting these folks in and that includes the leaders in Fairfax that have lost the trust of TMT and others.

  9. Ray Hyde Avatar

    It is a lot harder to object to a “taking” if they pay a fair price. If an area really wants to redevelop a site they always have that option. I also don’t have a problem with offering incentives, based on the pay for what you get approach. If the community really wants conservation easement land, or more open space, or parks, and they are willing topay for them, fine. If a decaying urban area does not have any decent stores and they want to entice a big box in to offer low price goods in an areas where they are really needed, I think that is fine, too.

    There will always be people looking at any incentive situation who say that we are paying corporation X to do their own job and it is somehow unfair or unwise.

    Not having what you had is an issue where the government does not play fair in a taking. I new am man that had property in Oakton, when it was still rural, not so many years ago.

    He was refused permission to subdivide it on the basis that sewer was not available. Later the county took his property, in order to build a sewer plant. Then his neighbors subdivided and today Oakton is an elite area of fine large homes. He got paid the rural price for his property, but his neighbors were able to capitalize on his loss, and make huge gains. Was he paid a fair price for his property?

    In my wife’s family, the state took the family beach home in order to put up a boardwalk. then they took 60 or 80 acres to run Rte 66 through and move the state road. Several farms were cut in half. My wife’s father was lucky because he was able to trade land and consolidate what was left, but others were left stranded. Then the county elimiated between 60 and 70 building lots by downzoning. When my wife’s father suffered a stroke (no wonder) her mom had to sell off more land than she might have liked because of the large lot zoning. Then the county added still more restrictions (based on the size the farm once was) because they didn’t want to provide more infrastructure (like the road that runs through the farm) and they didn’t want to see the farm get any smaller.

    Like the man with the sewer plant, the land is now worth far more, partly because of its proximity to the highway. Probably, any place else in the state, this would be zoned light industrial. Even in its restricted state, the property is so valuable that it cannot ever be farmed profitably, yet no other use is allowed.

    The end result is that only someone wealthy can afford to buy it, and let it sit there doing little. The difference between that and what other people have already done in the area ( and occupied by the same people who now support the restrictions) could be tens of millions of dollars.

    The claimed justification for this is that the county loses $2800 per home per year, on average. These probably would not be average homes, and I’m not sure I believe the county’s figures. In any case I believe the real justification is what my supervisor told me: he would prefer to see someone rich buy the place and put an easement on it.

    I don’t have any problem with that, but if someone wants that, then he ought to have to compete with the ten or twenty other people (who are far more numerous and easy to find) willing to pay a larger proportional price for a smaller piece of the pie.

    Or, the county could incentivize me to keep it as it is. It wouldn’t take very much incentive. I’d settle for the interest on what they claim I’m saving them.

    Even though I have no intention of developing the property, by choosing the punishment approach, by choosing to take what “they” want at no cost, the county has managed to turn me against my own conservation instincts and made an enemy out of me.

    Both here and in Fairfax assessment and taxes have gone up faster then income, and that cannot continue indefintely, or people will have to sell. When they sell they are going to want the price for the highest and best use. When enough people find out they can’t get it, then they will go to the polls.

    Like Larry said, when a commercial property’s rental income decreases, so does the assessment and taxes. If the farm paid taxes based on income, then the county would be paying me!

    So, yes, we elected the local officials who have “allowed” growth to cause increased costs, but we also elected the state officials who have refused to give VDOT the money to do their job.

    IF growth is the primary cause of the requirement for more infrastructure, THEN there are many ways to push the costs of growth to those that cause it. Impact fees and proffers are one way. A cap on tax increases for existing residents is one way. You pay full rate to get in, but subsequently your increases are limited. Borrowing money also pushes costs out into the future to newcomers.

    No matter how you do it, you still can’t take more money out of the pocket than what is in there.

    I don’t believe that growth is the only cause for higher costs of infrastructure. In Marshall they are about to spend $6 million to completely replace the water supply. This project has been sorely needed for over twenty years and it is now nearing a state of total failure. It is a public safety hazard because there isn’t enough water to fight fires, and almost no one drinks the water. But the county has used every tactic to avoid providing this service, in a dedicated service area, because they don’t want growth there, either.

    Any guess as to what the project might have cost ten or twenty years ago? And yet, now that there is a backlog of new residents waiting to get in, you can bet that much of the cost will be paid for through proffers charged to the newcomers.

    The cost of those proffers will be reflected in the home prices. Those prices will be reflected in the assessments of existing owners, along with the value of a fine new water system, and probably a brand new school.

    Five miles away, I’ll be paying higher taxes, too, but I’ll still be sucking wind. The property will be worth more, and farming will provide less and less of the costs, proportionately.

    It is probably true that growth costs money, but that isn’t the only truth. Preventing growth also costs money, it is just that it is a lot harder to see, and it comes out of different pockets. It is also probably futile, but that’s a different matter. But we should be honest with ourselves: even if growth paid its own full costs, we would still not like it. If we are making up cost arguments just to prevent what we don’t want, then we are lying and stealing, pure and simple.

    I’m with JAB on this. I don’t see any point in taxing passive investments: it is simply destructive. Tax the money the investment earns, and tax the gains when it is sold. Government is eternal and they can afford to take a longer view of things. Averaged over enough time it won’t make any difference. (The same thing is true of the growth arguments, we are not analyzing it over enough time.) We don’t tax the property in your bank account, jsut the interest. We don’t tax the property in your investment account, just the dividends.

    I can’t think of any reason that land should be any different, usnless the real reason is that we want to control other people and what they own without paying them.

    Larry is right. Takings are accepted in some circumstances. He is also right that the government often plays fast and loose with the rules, and ignores ethics entirely in the process. What we are talking about is a matter of degree, but that degree can be large indeed. Property is described in the law as a bundle of sticks, yet a taking is still defined to have occurred only if substantially all of the sticks are taken.

    Seems to me that if you take one stick, then you have taken ALL of that stick, and a taking has still occurred. One of the things that is going on is that some organizations have decided that as long as that is not the rule, then they are free to cynically use regulations, overlays, historical districts, environmental judgement calls and any other excuse they can think of to skirt right up to the takings line without crossing it.

    This is just as wrong as any other kind of taking, unless the taking is fairly compensated. If someone robs me and takes half the money in my pocket, I’ve still been robbed. There are injustices on both sides: developers didn’t get a bad rep for no reason.

    But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t still strive to reach agreements that are fair, ethical, and honest in both their execution and purpose. And while we are at it, we should try to keep it simple: it is a lot harder to bury nefarious plans when the rules are straightforward: keep what you own, and pay for what you get.

    I don’t see what is so hard about that.

  10. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    TMT is right about citizen concerns with the existing governance structue.

    That is why there needs to be Fundamental Change in governance structure in order to achieve Fundamental Change in settlement patterns.

    The failure to evolve governance structure to reflect economic, social and physical reality is a core cause of the current dysfunctional patterns.

    EMR

  11. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “failure to evolve governance structure… to reflect physical realities… that are at the root of dysfunctional patterns”.

    Is it the governance structure itself that needs to evolve or the governance structure’s attitudes toward growth and development?

    If it is the structure itself that is at issue – what would a less dysfunctional governance structure look like – assuming that it would continue to be one that is elected – and representative of those who vote?

    Is EMR advocating that Va “evolve” to a Home Rule governance structure or something much more revolutionary?

    Is there a belief that the Dillion Rule approach to land-use policies is itself part and parcel of dysfunctional settlement patterns (and/or dysfunctional governance?)

    I’ve heard of a planning concept called “cross validation” – is this what EMR is advocating? That would be a Home Rule discipline… right?

  12. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: takings

    The reality is that the government can take your land AND some or most or all of your land rights if it is deemed in the public interest.

    The how and why are subordinate to parity and equity because it is ,by definition, government extingency in the first place.

    This is not to say that parity and equity are almost irrelvant but that any system, no matter how constructed, would be viewed as wrong by some.

    Landowners themselves do not agree on what constitutes fair or unfair.

    Others feel that “takings” are, in the same church but a different pew of the “government taxation itself is unfair,inequitable and just flat illegal” school of thought.

    Yes it is but land itself would not be near as valuable if it were not for the subsidation of mortgages to start with.

    The “best and highest” use might likely be totally different in a world where it’s a wash between owning and renting and your savings would be what you have in dollars and not in real estate.

    I think the complaint that .. “yes we have a screwed up system – but it needs to be fair and equitable and have parity …. might be a stretch. 🙂

  13. Toomanytaxes Avatar
    Toomanytaxes

    The Virginia Supreme Court said in the Gregory v. Board of Supervisors of Chesterfield County case that a county could deny a rezoning request when the proposal would overburden public facilities in a manner adversely affecting the public health, safety and welfare and when the developer refused either to make sufficient cash proffers or otherwise to address the infrastructure affected. Clearly, the court decided that such a level of regulation did not constitute a taking.

    Similarly, the US Supreme Court held in a case involving Lake Tahoe that a three-year moritorium on zoning changes did not constitute a taking.

    We need to protect rights in dirt, but those rights cannot override all other property rights. There must be balance and an attempt to reach fair solutions. Fairness is not found in either Fauquier or Fairfax Counties for different reasons.

  14. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Larry:

    Our forthcoming Trilogy will answer your question about what an evolved governace structure would look like.

    In the meantime see “The Shape of Richmond’s Future” 16 Feb 2004 at http://www.bacon‘s rebellion.com

    EMR

  15. Ray Hyde Avatar

    If it is truly a case of public health safety and welfare, then the court is correct. Even Mesasure 37 in Oregon agrees, as does the recent executive order from the president. No one I know of is saying that takings cannot occur, only that they must be fairly compensated.

    Where are the standards that says when public health safety and welfare are truly affected, as opposed to say, someone’s complaint that “my taxes will go up” or “I moved out here when it was rural and pleasant”? When is a ditch that is dry four years out of five suddenly a flood plain that deserves fifty acres of “protection”? When is a mud puddle a wetland?

    I don’t see that subsidizing mortgages is inequitable: anyone who chooses to take the risk of placing themselves in debt has the same benefit. Subsidizing mortgages only for those who choose to live in new urbanist, mixed-use environments would be inequitable.

    Inequitable would be allowing people to take out subsidized mortgages and then taking the subsidy away, or allowing them to take out a mortgage based on a promised land value, and then taking the land value away.

    If I’m not mistaken, in the Lake Tahoe case the moratorium lasted much longer than three years and ultimately it was held to be a taking because the authorites were found to be operating in bad faith.

    Larry and I frequently agree, but he is off the deep end here. It does not say public interest, it says public use. Only recently have those two been interpreted to be the same, and that is the cause of the current controversies. Public interest has become far too broadly defined, and too ill defined at the same time.

    Also, it is defined by those same people that have control over the system. There is no real way to appeal the merits to an impartial third source, because you do not have standing to sue until every possible alternative has been turned down, administratively. This was the issue in the original Tahoe case. If thats true, the government could just claim a thousand year moratorium, and youwould have to wait a thousand years to get to court, assuming you could afford to do that to begin with.

    I could appeal my farm issues to Fauquier County, but I (and others I know of), have been told, don’t bother. But what if I had the right to have an appeal heard by, say, any adjoining county board? Someone who understands the issues but isn’t affected?

    On second thought, considering the beggar thy neighbor politics, maybe adjoining jurisdictions isn’t a good idea. But you get the point.

    In a world where it was a wash between owning and renting, no one in their right mind would own. They would put their capital where it cannot be taxed or taken away arbitrarily.

    And, I’ll say it again. There is a difference, even if we may not agree on what it is, between a new ordinance that is legitimately for public safety, and one that is ginned up to appear that way.

    Town houses used to be constructed with common attics. After a few fire disaters we require that they have a fireproof masonry wall all the way to the roof. That requires more cost to the builders, but no one in their right mind would complain. Densely constructed homes used to be built as close as ten feet apart, but again, a few fire disasters involving vinyl siding changed that.

    There is an even bigger difference when property was sold with X building rights and subsequently changed to x/10 building rights, based solely on imputed costs to others. Again, there is no real recourse to appeal, or even a means to offer to pay the difference. The answer is simply, no.

    Clearly that is inequitable, and we have already a major poll, conducted twice, that indicates that people can see the difference and agree that it is unfair. It is called Measure 37 in Oregon. Maybe Virginians would feel differently, maybe not.

    You are obviously a smart guy, Larry, with a demonstrated ability to make fine distinctions. I can’t believe you are seriously making one this weak and poorly nuanced, and then summarizing it by saying we don’t know what fair really is.

    If the answer is that we have become far more ecologically aware than previously, and open space is far more valuable to the public than we previously knew, then shouldn’t the answer be that the public should pay for this new public use? Why should those that worked the hardest to preserve things the longest now get punished the most?

    If the answer is that too much cost is being foisted on others, then shouldn’t the answer be raise the price of admission (fairly), rather than just say “No, I want someone wealthy to buy your property.”?

    If property is a bundle of sticks, and you take one of my sticks, isn’t that a taking?

  16. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “I don’t see that subsidizing mortgages is inequitable: anyone who chooses to take the risk of placing themselves in debt has the same benefit.”

    Ahh… but if you go into debt for a house – the govt gives you a tax break whereas if you go into debt for other stuff.. they do not.

    They are essentially give tax breaks to those who buy rather than rent.

    That causes a LOT of inequities and unintended consequences that end up costing people in other ways – one of which is higher taxes for infrastructure for inefficient development.

    That cost is passed on to others the same way that long-distance rush hour commuters get other drivers to help pay for their commutes.

    What you’re arguing is that … yes the equation is wrong.. but that it would be essentially unfair to make it right because in doing so.. “rights” are being taken away from those that have not yet benefited from the inequitable system…

    It’s odd logic.

    What it says is that no matter how wrong a policy is.. to change that policy is unfair to everyone being able to get the same.. wrong deal…

    I’s an argument to keep the status quo – no matter how wrong it is..

    sorry..no sympathy here…

  17. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “And, I’ll say it again. There is a difference, even if we may not agree on what it is, between a new ordinance that is legitimately for public safety, and one that is ginned up to appear that way.”

    Ray .. doesn’t this depend on a very subjective view that very much depends on what side you are on?

    Those who think the current system favors development that does not provide adequate infrastructure – will believe that any/every rule that can be used as a roadblock to prevent foisting infrastructure costs on taxpayers –
    … is … justified.

    Their idea of what is “fair” is that … it’s unfair to have a process where developers can build without having to assure that adequate infrastructure is provided.

    If someone owns land and want to develop it – no matter how “tiny” that development is… they really don’t care if, in doing so, they set a precedent that can and will be used by other developers to do “end-arounds”.

    Whether or not.. such individual strategies might actually result in opening up new loophole.. does not matter to those who feel like they’ve already been burned multiple times by seemingly innocuous development proposals.

    The underlying logic is “fool me once, shame on you – fool me twice – shame on me” and from then on there is no trust and no quarter given especially when landowners clearly have their fingers ready to pull triggers on the legal guns to assert their “rights”.

    I’m not saying any of this is “right” – what I am saying.. is that this is the way it is… and I’m not sure anyone should be suprised .. that we’re where we are at with this…

    furthermore.. until ..the infrastructure dilemma is better answered.. you’re probably going to find more and more voters who will vote for anyone.. who will prevent development .. no matter what tactics they use… the goal is to stop development that does not provide adequate infrastructure…

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think we have a status quo – with inequities – like subsidized housing for those that choose to buy rather than rent .

    This, in turn, causes other inequities such as gasoline taxes spent to maintain subdivision roads of subsidized homes more than roads used by apartment renters even though they may both drive the same number of miles and pay the same gas tax.

    What I’m hearing is that it’s wrong and unfair to change the status-quo because everyone is entitled to the same deal no matter how inequitable it has been or continues to be.

    I’m hearing this with regard to a wide range of issues – including how roads are funded and built.

    Sorry – no sympathy here.

    Reform MEANS reform. It means undoing things that were not right to start with and getting us back on a track that is more equitable for every person no matter whether they choose to rent or own.

    We have a system now that is tilted towards those that want to buy.. and want to commute long distances over public road infrastructure and if the fairness issue alone was involved that would be one thing but it’s more than that – it’s the fact that because of the inequities … we reward wasteful personal behaviors by giving tax dollars essentially as incentives for those wasteful behaviors.

    I’m in favor of letting each person pay their legitimate costs that are the consequences of the choices that they make with respect to location and commmuting and I’m convinced that once we do that – the arguments about having to tax everyone more for transportation will go away … and we’ll end up with a much efficient and fiscally responsible approach to infrastructure, land-use and transportation.

    I’m NOT in favor of continuing the status-quo when I feel that it is precisely the status-quo that is the reason why we have some of the problems we have.

    I’m in favor of REFORM… and driving us towards more cost effective solutions that can only come from more fully assigning costs to individuals and letting individuals decide how they want to allocate their own funds – and not public funds.

  19. missminimia Avatar
    missminimia

    There is an organisation in Melbourne, Australia that believes a large cause of the housing squeeze and high rent prices is speculative activity on land and empty properties.
    We’ve created a film competition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5YwZySbddg that will help share those housing affordability stories and expose the rampant speculation driving people out of the market and creating urban sprawl.
    go to http://www.earthsharing.org.au for more articles and http://www.iwanttolivehere.org.au for film competition

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