“Seeking a Better World” by Defending the Beheaders of Babies

by James A. Bacon

A week ago the Students for Justice in Palestine at UVA created a furor by publishing a statement defending Hamas’ attack on Israel. “Yesterday’s rebellion was not ‘unprovoked,’ as many have claimed, but is the consequence of years of mass killings, ethnic cleansing, and oppression from Israel,” the group wrote. “The events that took place yesterday [October 7] are a step towards a free Palestine…. We stand in solidarity with Palestinian resistance fighters and all oppressed people around the world seeking freedom and a better world.”

The same group organized a demonstration yesterday at the steps of the Rotunda in the shadow of the statue of Thomas Jefferson. I made a point of attending to hear what the protesters had to say and observe what transpired. I had one major question: who were these people? What kind of person living in a free society could defend the atrocities perpetrated upon Israeli civilians of all ages? What could they possibly be thinking?

As executive director of The Jefferson Council, which is dedicated among other things to free speech and free inquiry at UVa, I supported the right of the pro-Palestinians to hold their rally and make their case. But the Council also stands for viewpoint diversity, which is under threat from the steady leftward drift of the faculty and staff and the slow extinction of professors openly professing conservative, libertarian and independent views. While the far left is a distinct minority at UVa, it is a highly vocal and influential one. How representative, I wanted to know, were the Students for Justice in Palestine at UVA?

Students for Justice in Palestine begin to assemble Thursday at the foot of the Thomas Jefferson statue.

The rally, I would guess from eyeballing it, attracted a crowd of roughly 200. There were Palestinians, of course. There were others of apparent Middle Eastern descent. There were African-Americans and Whites, and there were others from the leftist ideological fringe such as transgender activists. The leader of the Students for Justice in Palestine acknowledged during his remarks that he himself was Jewish. (According to Townhall the leader of SJP is Josh Rosenberg, an undergraduate student majoring in Women, Gender, and Sexuality studies.) I recognized one individual who had asked combative questions at the Abigail Shrier event the evening before, and I had a brief exchange with another individual, a tall, broad-shouldered person with obvious xy chromosomes who had long hair and appeared to be growing breasts. (He asked me politely to move to a different spot.)

The event was peaceful. Attendees were admonished to “treat everyone with respect, even counter-protesters.”

The organizers presented a series of speakers. Rosenberg, or the masked leader of the rally whom I take to be Rosenberg, was at pains to stress that his group is not “anti-Semitic.” It is antizionist, meaning it opposes the Jewish state. He mourns the loss of life “without exception,” presumably referring obliquely to the more than 1,000 Israeli dead from the Hamas incursions, but he was there to “share sympathy with our Palestinian brothers and sisters.” The Students for Justice in Palestine, he said, gathered “in the spirit of peace, love and solidarity.”

The main theme of the rally was the victimization of the Palestinian people, beginning with the settling of European Jews in the province under British governance before World War II, the granting of Israeli independence in 1948, the war between Jews and Arabs, and the subsequent displacement of some 700,000 Palestinians known as the Nakba. Thousands of Gazans have died in military reprisals. The Israeli blockade of Gaza severely restricts civilian access to food and medical supplies. Gaza was described as “the world’s largest open-air prison.” The wall blocking free transit between Gaza and Israel was called “the apartheid wall.” 

Antizionism merges with anti-racism. Pro-Palestinian protesters hold banner declaring, “No dialogue with white supremacy.”

The Students for Justice narrative was suffused with leftist vocabulary. For instance, the Jews of European descent were “colonists” and “settlers.” (No mention of Jews of Middle Eastern or African descent.) And appeals were made to marginalized and victimized people of color, especially African-Americans, in the United States. The rhetoric was similar to that of Black Lives Matter, which opining upon Hamas’s actions, declared, “We see clear parallels between Black and Palestinian people.”

There is no question that the Palestinian people have endured great suffering. However, much was omitted from the victimization narrative, which attributed all ills to the Israelis. Speakers made no acknowledgement of the rampant corruption of Palestinian leadership or Hamas’ diversion of humanitarian resources to military uses. While invoking history, speakers never alluded to the invasions of Israel by neighboring Arab states, the incessant rocket bombardments and terrorist incursions, or the words of Hamas’ own charter demanding the end of the Israeli state. There was no recognition that the carefully planned and executed killing, raping, and beheading of non-combatants confirms fears that a Hamas victory will result in a second Holocaust and extermination of every Jew in Israel.

So, back to my question: How many UVa students, faculty and staff did the pro-Palestinian protesters represent?

Friends and sympathizers of Israel had held a well-attended vigil two days before in the amphitheater, and President Jim Ryan had issued a statement condemning “the actions of Hamas and the horrific violence that has taken place against civilians, including children.” So, clearly, many Wahoos were appalled by the Hamas terrorism.

Even as the pro-Palestinians were gathering on the north side of the Rotunda, life went on as normal on the south side. As the sun fell in the sky and the shadows lengthened on a pleasant October day, a group of 20 or so people were being conducted on a tour. Students were socializing under the colonnades. A man seated in a lawn chair on the Lawn was singing soft-rock songs.

Against that, we hear by way of Fox News that an anthropology professor had offered students extra credit for attending the rally. I also saw pro-Palestinian signage on the doors of two or three Lawn residents. And it was only last year that Student Council gave serious consideration to a resolution calling upon UVa to sever ties with speakers and groups associated with Israel. That campaign, according to the Washington Free Beacon, was initiated by Dissenters, a group that organizes college students to fight “war mongering elites” and “uplift” people “who are surviving under oppression.”

Given the massive news coverage of the Hamas invasion, the social media publicity the pro-Palestine rally received, and the denunciations by Virginia Republican politicians from Governor Glenn Youngkin to Attorney General Jason Miyares and House Speaker Todd Gilbert, which ordinarily would inflame progressive students to action, I was surprised by the modest attendance.

Clearly, there is an active core of militant students at UVa — they include the 100 or more transgender advocates who protested the Abigail Shrier event two nights ago — who are vocal, visible, and have a dominating presence on the Grounds. But defending the Palestinians who terrorize Israeli grandmothers and behead Israeli babies is not a cause that many at UVa are willing to openly embrace.

James A. Bacon is executive director of The Jefferson Council. This column is republished with permission from the Jefferson Council blog.


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143 responses to ““Seeking a Better World” by Defending the Beheaders of Babies”

  1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “I also saw pro-Palestinian signage on the doors of two or three Lawn residents.”

    Road trip, Bert…?!

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      Lol. Very good.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar

    It’s way more than college campuses. Look around… read the news.

    There is a substantial number of people in the world that believe that Israel caused this by their treatment of Palestinians over decades.. and essentially generated/created Hamas as some Palestinian people in Gaza rebelled against Israeli rule.

    Stay tuned… a lot of folks are gonna learn a lot of things…they
    did not know before….

    it’s not near as simple as many would like to believe.

    1. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      “It’s not near as simple as many would like to believe.”

      Doesn’t justify killing babies and families. Soldiers, perhaps…but not families. Not kids attending a rave.

      Your side DOES get that, right, Larry? I’m not so sure anymore. Matter of fact, IMO, your side no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt anymore.

      But hey…”Stay tuned…a lot of folks are gonna learn a lot of things”…I can’t wait for you to convince all of us that whatever Israel did in the past justified killing kids and families.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Don, you need t get off the “your side” stuff. That’s a problem for folks that think that way at the get go. Do you think genocide and terrorism is a “left – right” thing in Ruwanda or Kosovo or the dozens of other places in the world where it takes place? Do you think terrorists in other parts of the world
        are any less savage than Hamas? Do you think it’s justified to kill civilians if terrorists are hiding
        among them? As I said earlier, it’s not so simple and we have too many folks who are frustrated
        and want simple concepts so they can make easy choices. That’s not the reality and it’s the reality
        that we do have to deal with that we have a responsibility to deal with.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar

        Don – do you think kids are born as Hamas
        or they’re born as kids and then get that way after living in Israeli-controlled conditions for a decade or more?

      3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        At the risk of being labeled an anti-semite somehow… do you know what Israel and Jewish settlers have done to Palestinian kids and families for decades? Violence is almost always unjustified, imo, but it is rarely without any cause.

  3. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Hey, free speech is free speech. You don’t have to listen.

  4. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Hey, free speech is free speech. You don’t have to listen.

  5. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    “which ordinarily would inflame progressive students to action, I was surprised by the modest attendance.”

    Well, I’m sure there were plenty of cameras there…and digital face recognition technology gets better and better…and a surprisingly large number of elite employers have hinted (or outright said) that they don’t want to hire youngsters who revel in Israel’s suffering…so, no, when you put all that together, I’m not surprised at all.

  6. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I saw coverage of a similar rally on another campus and the reporter talked to some of the young folks, finding many believed the reports of horrific atrocities committed by the Hamas murders to be lies, fabrications. I suspect that thread of conscious disbelief was common in the UVA crowd.

    The cycle we’ve watched our whole lives, literally our whole lives, is repeating in front of our eyes. No one should be surprised that Hamas did what it did or that Israel is going to answer with a full invasion, which is exactly what Hamas intended to provoke all along. Rinse and repeat.

    1. Lefty665 Avatar

      Some of it is actually true, and some is made up as was Biden’s statement, like so many other things he says (no joke man, I’m not kidding) that he saw pictures of beheaded babies. https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/biden-ive-seen-pictures-of-terrorists-beheading-children-in-israel/

      Some things not so much covered are actually true, such as Israel’s use of white phosphorus in civilian areas that is a war crime. White phosphorus over Gaza 10/11/23:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13638cf9ce1d81110784d53173935f9182bb3fed5d2f0d4bea1b86e3040856f6.jpg

      https://time.com/6323482/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza-lebanon/

      1. White phosphorus is not banned under international conventions, but its use against targets located among civilians is prohibited. Israel did not sign Protocol III of the Convention of Use of Certain Conventional Weapons, which prohibits such use. But the ICRC stated in 2009 that citizens who support terrorists in any fashion are viable targets of warfare.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          War crimes are war crimes whether you sign the protocols or not. Israeli use of white phosphorus on civilians is a war crime and it’s perpetrators terrorists.

          Does that make Israeli citizens whether or not they support Israeli war crimes “viable targets of warfare” too?

          I personally do not believe either most Israelis or Palestinians want terror or war. Both their leaders on the other hand belong in the dock for war crimes.

          “Your moral equation must have human beings on both sides”
          https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/your-moral-equation-must-have-human-beings-on-both-sides.html

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Like in Fallujah, certain uses are proscribed, others not, but civilians there died or were injured anyway.

        I think air bursts are in the “it’s not a war crime.”

        They’ll disappear the dead. They’re already making the civilians less civil in the press.

      3. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Like in Fallujah, certain uses are proscribed, others not, but civilians there died or were injured anyway.

        I think air bursts are in the “it’s not a war crime.”

        They’ll disappear the dead. They’re already making the civilians less civil in the press.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          Dunno, air bursts are how they spread the death. The shells spread around 150 phosphorus bomblets. If anything that’s a bigger crime than an impact burst.

          Here’s an up close picture of an Israeli air burst during Operation Cast Lead in 2009 (ps, the ordnance is US supplied – makes us an accessory to war crimes):
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d04eef31354348b2f757b22a52ba47acabd5a8b7e50cbf141a26a141227b1cff.jpg

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          Dunno, air bursts are how they spread the death. The shells spread around 150 phosphorus bomblets. If anything that’s a bigger crime than an impact burst.

          Here’s an up close picture of an Israeli air burst during Operation Cast Lead in 2009 (ps, the ordnance is US supplied – makes us an accessory to war crimes):
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d04eef31354348b2f757b22a52ba47acabd5a8b7e50cbf141a26a141227b1cff.jpg

        3. Lefty665 Avatar

          Dunno, air bursts are how they spread the death. The shells contain around 150 phosphorus bomblets. If anything that’s a bigger crime than an impact burst.

          Here’s an up close picture of an Israeli air burst over an apartment building during Operation Cast Lead in 2009 (ps, the ordnance is US supplied – makes us an accessory to war crimes):
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d04eef31354348b2f757b22a52ba47acabd5a8b7e50cbf141a26a141227b1cff.jpg

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            Yeah, and I suppose we do too. It’s right up there with cluster munitions for killing and maiming civilians. But, phosphorous does not have the decades long half life of cluster munitions.

            White phosphorus is considered an incendiary weapon under protocol 3 of the convention on the prohibition of use of certain conventional
            weapons. The protocol prohibits using incendiary weapons against
            military targets located among civilians, although Israel has not signed it and is not bound by it.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            They have their outs…

            Yeah, and I suppose we do too. It’s right up there with cluster munitions for killing and maiming civilians. But, phosphorous does not have the decades long half life of cluster munitions.

            HRW Middle East and North Africa director Lama Fakih said in a statement. “White phosphorous is unlawfully indiscriminate when airburst in populated urban areas, where it can burn down houses and cause egregious harm to civilians.”

            White phosphorus is considered an incendiary weapon under protocol 3 of the convention on the prohibition of use of certain conventional
            weapons. The protocol prohibits using incendiary weapons against
            military targets located among civilians, although Israel has not signed it and is not bound by it.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            I get a 404 on reliefweb…

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Works for me, but here’s a different site, same report.
            https://comw.org/pda/0402rm9exsum.html

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            That works, tku. fwiw I almost always find the links you post interesting. I am a fan.

            Dunno if you remember it, but during the Reagan years perception management was a thing. One cartoon observed “Issues are not real, they are just masses of opposing scenarios vying to become perceptions”.

          6. Lefty665 Avatar

            That works, tku. fwiw I almost always find the links you post interesting. I am a fan.

            Dunno if you remember it, but during the Reagan years perception management was a thing. One cartoon observed “Issues are not real, they are just masses of opposing scenarios vying to become perceptions”.

          7. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            This is the full 113 pages.
            https://comw.org/pda/fulltext/0402rm9.pdf

            This was the subject of a weapons discussion in which I was engaged with the Captain.
            https://comw.org/pda/precision-warfare-a-2000-lb-scalpel/

            FWIW, to me the best two words to describe an attack on civilians and a war crime would be “shock” and “awe”.

          8. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            This is the full 113 pages.
            https://comw.org/pda/fulltext/0402rm9.pdf

            This was the subject of a weapons discussion in which I was engaged with the Captain.
            https://comw.org/pda/precision-warfare-a-2000-lb-scalpel/

            FWIW, to me the best two words to describe an attack on civilians and a war crime would be “shock” and “awe”.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            That was an interesting discussion. Seemed to me you made a strong case. From the article you linked above:

            “precision” depends on which end of the weapon’s trajectory one sits.

            The close to 1/2 million civilian causalities cited in Afghanistan and Iraq are horrendous and clearly a war crime. When you add the 2-3 million in Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos, Pol Pot’s 2 million, the 1/2 million Iraqi children following the 1st Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, and now Ukraine we have surpassed the Nazis in civilian deaths. Shock and Awe is an understatement.

          10. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, we’re a funny people. We commit horrible atrocities and then make movies about how sorry we are.

          11. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            You have a surgical vision of war reserved for those who have never fought in one.

          12. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Or been within 35,000 ft of it.

    2. “No one should be surprised that Hamas did what it did …”

      This didn’t need to happen. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, largely because of international pressure under the guise of land for peace.

      It’s not possible to negotiate with the Palestinians or give land to them until they are able to govern themselves. They must earn it.

      Where Israel is able to negotiate with a functional government, land for peace becomes a possibility.

      “The Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egypt in multiple stages beginning in 1979 as part of the Egypt–Israel peace treaty. Israel dismantled 18 settlements, 2 airforce bases, a naval base, and other installations by 1982, including most oil resources under Israeli control.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      When a news agency perpetuates a lie, e.g., Venezuela controlling voting machines, elections were stolen, etc., gets sued to the tune of 3/4 of a B$, fires its reporters for lying…. It has an effect.

  7. For instance, the Jews of European descent were “colonists” and “settlers.” (No mention of Jews of Middle Eastern or African descent.)

    Not only have Jews lived in what is now Israel for at least 3,000 years, they have also been a sizable minority throughout the entire Middle East for millennia. Their history is fascinating to say the least.

    For example, I think everyone knows Jerry Seinfeld. His mother and her parents were Jews from Aleppo, Syria. Their nationality was listed as Turkish, because at that time Syria was, shall we say, “conquered” and “occupied” by the Ottoman Empire.

    Seinfeld’s great-grandmother, was a member of the Dayan rabbinic family, who claim ancestry back to the Medieval Exilarchs, and from the Exilarchs back to the Biblical King David.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Seinfeld#:~:text=Seinfeld%20has%20an%20older%20sister,musician%20and%20actor%20Evan%20Seinfeld.

    The Ottomans also “conquered” and “occupied” Palestine, (formerly Judea and Samaria), in 1517. Nomadic Arabs from the Arabian peninsula have become “colonists” and “settlers” over time since then. We now call them “Palestinians,” but that is a recent development for political purposes. Prior to Yasser Arafat, everyone living in Palestine was a Palestinian.

    The Ottomans were defeated in WWI, and the land divided.

  8. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    If these students cannot tell the difference between support for the Palestinian plight and the pure evil carried out by Hamas, they are to be pitied. The university would do well to read the statement issued by Ben Sasse, President of the University of Florida.
    The UVA students who are leading this protest have no moral compass.

  9. Turbocohen Avatar
    Turbocohen

    Name all of them and distribute the list of names to every CEO.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      There’s that old Conservative cry for unfettered first amendment rights…!!

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    And somebody got upset when I used the word “indiscriminately”.

    Israel said it dropped 6,000 bombs on the Gaza Strip during the first six days of war with Hamas.

    That’s more bombs than the US-led coalition dropped in any month during the fight against ISIS.

    Allied forces dropped 5,000 bombs in August 2017 — at the peak of their air campaign.

    1. If my sons or daughters were members of the infantry about to retake that area and start going house to house, I’d want the air force to do as much as possible to prepare the way.

      But I guess that’s just me.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        If? If you’re doing ifs, if your sons or daughters ran a bakery in Gaza then what? Since they are neither, why do you imagine them only on the one side.

        And boms don’t decapitate babies because they’re “smart” bombs.

        1. I don’t imagine only one side. I was responding to your one sided comment.

          Unlike most in this discussion, I have actually been to the places talked about and met people on both sides. I do have feelings for those in Gaza, but I understand that Hamas is very much like ISIS. There can be no peace on either side with them in power.

          Gaza was a far different place prior to the Israeli withdrawal. I saw it.

          If Israel is to blame to what has become of Gaza, the fault lies in listening to international pressure to pull out.

          You like to talk about the barrier between Gaza and Israel.

          The border between Israel and Egypt (Sinai) is much longer and very different. Do you know why? It’s because the government in Egypt isn’t actively trying to send people into Israel to kill families in their sleep.

      2. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        The process you’re describing is the tactic that is used and has been used since WWII. Israel and the US, however sens evacuation orders before they begin the bombardment.

        FM 27-10 Law of Land Warfare iss illustrates the constraints to which warfare is conducted, at least from the legal standpoint.

        That being said, Israel probably isn’t following those as Hamas surely isn’t following those and have never followed them. Most adversaries (terrorist) use our ROE as well as rules against us, which is why insurgency is so dangerous.

        1. killerhertz Avatar
          killerhertz

          Evacuate to where? For all intents and purposes gaza is a prison

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Israel isn’t the only boarder. The notion it’s a prison is hyperbole.

          2. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Ok fine ghetto.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I would think that people or Israel would know what a ghetto was, there were occupants during WWII. You could keep the anti-semitism to yourself.

          4. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Antisemitism? Stop being a boomer shill for Israel.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I wasn’t aware I was a “boomer”.

            Perhaps you could work on providing things that aren’t ad hom attacks.

            Yes, anti-semitism, you know accusing Israel of placing people into ghettos, I mean unless you lacked the education to know the origin of that word.

          6. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            They can always swim, eh? There is a border with Egypt, but until recently, like today, it was closed, thus swimming was the only option.

          7. Won’t the fellow Arabs in charge of Egypt allow their Gaza brothers and sisters in to protect them???

        2. The idea that one can count bombs and make some moral argument based on raw numbers is ridiculous to start with.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            Depends on which end of the bombs you’re on. If you’re on the receiving end, raw numbers count. If you’re a civilian the issue is not ridiculous, it is a war crime and the bombers war criminals.

          2. Please show me where in the international rules of war where bomb count constitutes a war crime.

            While you are at it, please point out where the legitimate military target are in Gaza. The ruling government, Hamas, has a military, but no military facilities. Hamas uses hospitals, mosques, schools and homes for its military operations.

            Use of human shields is a war crime.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            ‘Please show me where in the international rules of war where bomb count constitutes a war crime.’

            Deliberate misconstruction is not constructive. It comes under the heading of dishonest if you understand what you did wrong. Do you?

            ‘Hamas, has a military’

            There is your military target. It is really very simple.

            That the Israelis have never been very careful about ‘collateral damage’ is a war crime. There is no rule of war that requires the opposition to make it simple for the powerful. In fact not simple is one of the characteristics of asymmetrical warfare. Those with less power do not have the organized structure of the powerful.

            Israeli use of phosphorus shells in civilian areas is a war crime, its perpetrators war criminals and those who supply the phosphorus (US) accessories.

          4. “It comes under the heading of dishonest if you understand what you did wrong. Do you?”

            Let’s recap:

            Nathan:
            “The idea that one can count bombs and make some moral argument based on raw numbers is ridiculous to start with.”

            Lefty665:
            “Depends on which end of the bombs you’re on. If you’re on the receiving end, raw numbers count. If you’re a civilian the issue is not ridiculous, it is a war crime and the bombers war criminals.”

            Nathan:
            “Please show me where in the international rules of war where bomb count constitutes a war crime.”

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            Do you understand that you are making a phony argument? If not then please pause to engage your brain before your fingers on the keyboard.

          6. “If not then please pause to engage your brain before your fingers on the keyboard.”

            How is that helpful? Should I respond in kind?

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            Thinking before you type would be an improvement, not to mention an in kind response.

            Here’s the problem with Israel’s massive over reaction and the mayhem you extol:

            What people don’t realize is that the fact this reaction – the massive collective punishment – was indeed immensely predictable says just as much about Israel than it does about Hamas.

            It says a lot about Israel for 3 reasons.

            1) It says a lot about Israel’s image that it was expected to react with massive collective punishment, violating international law.

            2) It also says a lot about
            Israel’s inability to think strategically that it would react in exactly the way its adversary predicted it to. Revenge is not a strategy, in fact it is the opposite of strategic. And, lastly

            3) it says a lot that Israel doesn’t seem to have learned a thing from the US’s immense mistakes in its post 9-11 response.

            https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/10/arnaud-bertrand-how-israel-stepped-into-a-trap.html

          8. “…please pause to engage your brain…”
            “Thinking before you type…”

            I have refrained from personal attacks. They are not helpful.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            You asked if you should respond in kind and I outlined what that would entail. I am sorry that does not please you.

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “…somebody got upset…”

      Imagine… new rule?…

  11. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    I would like to suggest that commenters who attempt to justify what I call evil read the Hamas Charter. The 2017 revision states “Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws …”
    This hatred goes back to the formation of Israel. Hamas refuses to accept Israel as a reality or to work on a peaceful solution to the Palestine issue. What aboutism can’t justify the actions of October 7.

  12. Lefty665 Avatar

    It should be noted that the beheading of babies in the heading of this post turned out to be unsubstantiated, iow, propaganda.

    That does not mean that horrible acts have not been perpetrated by both sides, just that the most emotionally charged are not so.

  13. The video below is informative.

    Senior Hamas Official Ali Baraka:
    “We Have Been Secretly Planning the Invasion for Two Years”

    (Benjamin Netanyahu assumed office December 29, 2022. Do the math.)

    “The Israelis are known to love life. We, on the other hand, sacrifice ourselves. We consider our dead to be martyrs. The thing any Palestinian desires the most is to be martyred for the sake of Allah, defending his land.”

    Hamas doesn’t value human life. Think about that.

    https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1712030588872351872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1712030588872351872%7Ctwgr%5E8e3facf481851d494541fb660affbc4a4681c10c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitchy.com%2Faaronwalker%2F2023%2F10%2F11%2Fwatch-hamass-leader-tells-us-exactly-who-they-are-n2388418

    1. Lefty665 Avatar

      A poll in Israel shows 86% of Israelis blame Netanyahoo for failing to prevent the attack. A majority wants him and his cronys gone asap.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Polls are only as good as the leading questions they ask and whom is answering them. The poll that counts is an election.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          A majority of the Israelis apparently intend to have one as soon as possible.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Okay, only time will tell.

      2. “A poll in Israel shows 86% of Israelis blame Netanyahoo for failing to prevent the attack.”

        Different issue. The Hamas attack happened on his watch, so he should be held accountable. Just as Biden should be for the world going into the crapper on his watch.

        But you won’t acknowledge that the attack has been in the making for two years, prior to the current administration in Israel. You also won’t acknowledge that according to the Hamas original charter, the root cause is the existence of Israel.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          The attack has been in the making since the 1940s. Think the Stern Gang et al.

          I do not believe either the Israeli or Palestinian people want to be at war with each other.

          Their leaders on the other hand, all of them, are war criminals.

          1. “The attack has been in the making since the 1940s.”

            If Germany had won the war, it would have been completed back then too.

            In this German propaganda newsreel, the former Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husayni, an Arab nationalist and prominent Muslim religious leader, meets Hitler for the first time. During the meeting, held in in the Reich chancellery, Hitler declined to grant al-Husayni’s request for a public statement–or a secret but formal treaty–in which Germany would: 1) pledge not to occupy Arab land, 2) recognize Arab striving for independence, and 3) support the “removal” of the proposed Jewish homeland in Palestine. The Führer confirmed that the “struggle against a Jewish homeland in Palestine” would be part of the struggle against the Jews. Hitler stated that: he would “continue the struggle until the complete destruction of Jewish-Communist European empire”; and when the German army was in proximity to the Arab world, Germany would issue “an assurance to the Arab world” that “the hour of liberation was at hand.” It would then be al-Husayni’s “responsibility to unleash the Arab action that he has secretly prepared.” The Führer stated that Germany would not intervene in internal Arab matters and that the only German “goal at that time would be the annihilation of Jewry living in Arab space under the protection of British power.”

            https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            and your point is?

            Mine was that the leaders of both Hamas and Israel are war criminals, and that neither the Israeli or Palestinian people want war with each other. I will repost an illustration:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/694abf42944f8937dcc4353dbaab7ab2ca9082b2ce9c649bbbcfd61a3b3ce2e5.jpg

            Righteous warmongering from the peanut gallery does not make things better.

          3. Are you familiar with this phrase?

            “From the river to the sea”

            It’s almost impossible to see a Palastinian protest without it displayed prominantly.

            ‘From the river to the sea’ prompts Vienna to ban pro-Palestinian protest

            https://uk.news.yahoo.com/river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-164435845.html?guccounter=1

          4. Lefty665 Avatar

            Righteous warmongering from the peanut gallery does not make things better.

          5. The attack has been in the making since the 7th century.

          6. The attack has been in the making since the 7th century.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Two state solution is dead. Forever. Oct 7 revealed the true intentions. Final solution.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        “Final Solution” was what the Nazis called it wasn’t it?

      2. I assume you are familiar with this.

        Full official record: What the mufti said to Hitler

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          I’ve seen that. I have also read the Hamas Covenant from the 1980s and the updated one from 2017. The revised version is eerily similar to what is being parroted by the left in the US.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Power pays tribute to reason when it stays the hand of vengeance.

      For the next 1000 years fathers will bury their sons in that land. Deservedly so.

    3. I find that graphic appalling. 1,300 mostly civilians dead and countless wounded is more than a bee sting. There’s not a nation on earth that would just let that go.

      Hamas must be eliminated. Everyone, including the Palestinians will be better without them.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        Once again, righteous warmongering from the peanut gallery does not make things better.

        ” 1,300 mostly civilians dead and countless wounded”

        On the Palestinian side too. It is a humanitarian disaster on both sides. You want to make it worse.

        1. I’m not the one who posted a graphic that likened the planned murder of about 300 concert attendees and hundreds of families killed in their sleep to a bee sting.

          How was that helpful?

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

            In this case it is Israel beating on the Palestinians.

            It is a tragedy for civilians on both sides.

            Here’s the other side of the picture, not that you have eyes to see it. The conclusion speaks to your advocacy.

            The violence is the direct result of some very basic realities — namely, that Israel has been occupying Palestine for 75 years, has been killing and oppressing Palestinians for just as long, and has created
            the world’s most enduring apartheid state. And the only thing that will
            really put a stop to the violence is if those conditions are ended.

            That’s really all there is to it. You can go through all of the twists and turns since 1948, but if you don’t come back to that
            fundamental truth, there’s no real conversation to have…

            It is totally acceptable and humane to lament the violence that has broken out over the past few days and to plead for an end to the killing of civilians. But anyone trying to say that this violence sprang from nowhere; or that it is not rooted in the decisions that Israel has made over the last 75 years; or that Palestinians have not been dying every day for generations; or that they bear the most responsibility for what happens next, is lying to you.”

            https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/mainstream-broadcasters-include-the-palestinian-perspective-at-last/

          2. “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”

            If you study the history from the British Mandate forward, you will learn that many things have been tried.

            It’s hard to negotiate with people who don’t think you have a right to exist.

            Every Palestinian map of the area shows the same thing. A Palestinian state with not one square mile for Israel.

            Rashida Tlaib demonstrates this with the map on her T shirt. Palestine everywhere and no Israel.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a89420d44cc967d0904f68a5a031d7cc8ee42f025a0d1a999b220f3d6052f9f6.jpg

  14. Lefty665 Avatar

    It should be noted that the beheading of babies in the heading of this post turned out to be unsubstantiated, iow, propaganda. The White House walked backed senile old Joe’s fantasy that he had actually seen the pictures.

    That does not mean that horrible acts have not been perpetrated by both sides, just that the most emotionally charged are not so.

    1. William O'Keefe Avatar
      William O’Keefe

      According to Snopes which has done an extensive investigation,”While we can confirm killings of innocent civilians in Kfar Aza and other parts of Israel at the hands of Hamas fighters, as of this writing we simply cannot confirm or deny that such beheadings occurred.” Do we need to know that babies were beheaded to judge the intentional slaughter of women and children as evil?

      1. Civilians were the targets of the Hamas operation planned well in advance, not collateral damage.

        One doesn’t target Jewish music festivals looking for Israeli military.

        1. William O'Keefe Avatar
          William O’Keefe

          You are right. Terrorism targeting civilians was Hamas’ objective. The brutal slaughter of men, women, and children show that they have no morality.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            There is no evidence that beheadings of babies as in the headline of this post occurred. It is hysterical propaganda.

            Quoting Snopes “cannot confirm or deny” is not evidence it happened.

            The brutal slaughter of men, women and children show the Israelis have no more morality than Hamas.

            There is no morality in the leaders of either side.

            A poll in Israel shows that 86% of Israelis blame Netanyahoo for the failure to prevent the attack.

          2. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Whataboutism is a weak effort to avoid speaking about what Hamas did on October 7.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            Observing that the Israelis are every bit as brutal murdering war criminals as Hamas is not whataboutism. It is fact.

            Neither side deserves support.

            Justifying war crimes because of what the other guy did is whataboutism at its worst.

      2. Lefty665 Avatar

        “Do we need to know that babies were beheaded to judge the intentional slaughter of women and children as evil?”

        No we do not, and that is the issue with Israeli bombardment of civilians. It is a war crime, its perpetrators and supporters war criminals.

        One of the fundamentals of international law – at the heart of the Geneva Conventions – is a prohibition on collective punishment: that is,
        retaliating against the enemy’s civilian population, making them pay the
        price for the acts of their leaders and armies.

        Very obviously, Gaza is about as flagrant a violation of this prohibition as can be found. Even in “quiet” times, its inhabitants – one million of them children – are denied the most basic freedoms, such as the right to movement; access to proper health care because medicines and equipment cannot be brought in; access to drinkable water; and the use of electricity for much of the day because Israel keeps bombing Gaza’s power station.

        Israel has never made any bones of the fact that it is punishing the people of
        Gaza for being ruled by Hamas, which rejects Israel’s right to have
        dispossessed the Palestinians of their homeland in 1948 and imprisoned them in overcrowded ghettos like Gaza.

        What Israel is doing to Gaza is the very definition of collective punishment. It is a war crime: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks of every year, for 16 years.

        https://consortiumnews.com/2023/10/13/lawless-in-gaza-why-west-backs-israel-no-matter-what/

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “No we do not, and that is the issue with Israeli bombardment of civilians. It is a war crime, its perpetrators and supporters war criminals.”

          Only the intentional targeting of civilians is a “war crime”. You can find a PDF of FM 27-10 online, where you can be educated on warfare.

          You also might not want to reference the Geneva Conventions, Israeli’s are uniformed. Hamas and terrorists are not, they are what is termed illegal combatants and not covered by the Geneva Conventions.

          Hamas also violated article 34 of the convention when they took hostages.

          As to your citation, consortiumnews is equivalent to Fox News just far left.

          https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/consortium-news/

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            The Israeli attacks on Gaza, including phosphorus are intentional and at this point have killed more than 1k civilians. That is a war crime, and there is more to come.

            They tell the Palestinians to leave Gaza City then shell the exit route. That makes many fear to leave. That is a war crime.
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/14/gaza-evacuation-israel-hamas-war/

            You can’t refute the message so you attack the messenger, and once again have not read what the messenger has to say so your criticism is without factual basis. Cute.

            I have no more sympathy for Hamas’s crimes than for the Israeli war crimes. They are both evil. The Israelis commit theirs from a position of power. I do not apologize for or justify either one.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “The Israeli attacks on Gaza, including phosphorus are intentional and at this point have killed more than 1k civilians. That is a war crime, and there is more to come.”

            Unless they are directly and intentionally targeting civilians, it is not a war crime.

            “You can’t refute the message so you attack the messenger, and once again have not read what the messenger has to say so your criticism is without factual basis. Cute.”

            I did not, I told you to choose your sources wisely as what the indicated is not factual.

            “I have no more sympathy for Hamas’s crimes than for the Israeli war crimes. They are both evil. The Israelis commit theirs from a position of power. I do not apologize for or justify either one.”

            Minus the fact you’re using, but. That indicates your bias and why you opinion, which isn’t rooted in fact outside of confirmation biased sources is false

  15. The world has known that Hamas was preparing for war because they bragged about their ingenuity at making rockets from humanitarian aid to improve their water system. The video was posted in 2021.

    When Hamas prepares to attack Jews, nobody cares. When Jews prepare to defend themselves, the world suddenly starts being concerned about the loss of life.

    https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1397186381756125184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1397186381756125184%7Ctwgr%5Efac8c279bc832a6ffd9595ac1a15e89a422d195a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fworld-news%2F2023%2F10%2F10%2Feu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets%2F

  16. Eric the half a troll to Nancy Naive a day ago “…somebody got upset…” Imagine… new rule?…

    Yes, I’ve been upset by Eric, Nancy , Lefty and others treating Hamas terrorists as innocents, but I’m not the person referred to in Eric’s comment. As moderator, I’ve allowed what I personally consider disgusting comments that ignore Hamas using civilian locations as places from which to stage their attacks on Israeli civilians on the grounds of free speech, no matter how reprehensible to me. The Israeli people and their military defending them are not the war criminals. Individual Palestinians trying to survive are not the war criminals, but their terrorist military are. As a Jew by choice, I have aligned myself with the Jewish people for all time and in all circumstances. As a matter of conscience, I needed to make this clear in regard to my role as BR moderator.

    1. Lefty665 Avatar

      I have never treated Hamas as innocents. To the contrary I have repeatedly referred to them as war criminals, same as the Israeli government. I do not believe that either the Israeli people or Palestinians want to be at war with each other. They both suffer, some 3k civilians on both sides combined and counting at this point.

      Firing phosphorus shells at civilians is a war crime as is the bombing and shelling of civilians in Gaza City. The cutting off of electricity, water and food to Gaza’s civilians is also a war crime. The murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas is equally a war crime.

      I would hope that your alignment in “all circumstances” would not include war crimes committed by Israel’s government that betrays the Jewish people.

  17. Lefty665 Avatar

    There are beginning to be reports that the Israelis are unable to equip the 300k reservists they have called up. Specifically it is things like body armor that will be needed for an invasion of Gaza. Also, the reports are that the reservists are not trained for urban warfare. In addition, the heavy shelling of Gaza City has made such a mess that it will impede tank and other vehicle movement. In all that bodes ill for what has been reported as an imminent invasion and urban warfare. The Israelis may also be about to find out how many Javelins and Stingers the Ukrainians have sold to Hamas.

    https://sonar21.com/is-israel-unprepared-to-fight-hamas/

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      I thought the same thing about the changed battlefield landscape. I don’t think Hamas can shoot straight. It will not be a Stalingrad. More like Mogadishu 1993.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        Everybody will be better off if we don’t find out.

        There is some logic to the argument that Hamas’s goal was to goad Israel into a over reaction and fight in Gaza City that Israel was not prepared for and that Hamas was.

        How many IDF soldiers lives and limbs are you willing to bet that none of the billions of dollars of weapons we have sent to Ukraine or abandoned in Afghanistan have found their way to Hamas? It may not be tanks, jets and helicopters against AKs and RPGs this time. Remember too how the IDF fared against Hezbollah in Lebanon last go round. It was more a dunk than a slam.

        What will it be folks, a cake walk or a Little Big Horn, Stalingrad or Mogadishu, or something in between?

        You can be assured it will be more blood under the bridge, but none of it ours. Step right up and place your bets now folks.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Don’t forget the Taliban’s treasure trove that we left behind, they have been rumored to have sold those arms as well.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        You are right, I had not been thinking about that huge stash. What was on my mind was the huge supply of weapons we have sent to Ukraine, the utter lack of inventory control and the recent firing of the defense minister and a half dozen of his assistants for corruption. We sure left the Taliban a pot full too. The Stinger that recently showed up with the Mexican drug cartels was an indicator that arms traffic is flourishing. Hamas may well have more than AKs, RPGs and dumb rockets.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          $81 billion dollars worth. I’ve seen images of M16 family rifles, some I would believe might have been from the 80’s (given their furniture and accompanying items).

          “What was on my mind was the huge supply of weapons we have sent to Ukraine, the utter lack of inventory control and the recent firing of the defense minister and a half dozen of his assistants for corruption”

          Yep, the only positive is 80% hasn’t left our shores and just went directly to the MIC (I guess if that’s what you call lucky).

          “The Stinger that recently showed up with the Mexican drug cartels was an indicator that arms traffic is flourishing. Hamas may well have more than AKs, RPGs and dumb rockets.”

          I’d venture to guess, we are 6 months to a year from a large scale attack across the globe by terror players. That would include in the US, given the porous nature of our southern boarder and the fact we know there have been at least 260 individuals with first person terror ties that have crossed and only been given NTA’s.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            Yeah, having intercepted more than 100 people on the terrorist watch list certainly makes one wonder how many we missed. Chances are pretty good it’s not zero.

            It wouldn’t be much of a MIC if it didn’t know how to deal home would it? Too bad we didn’t listen to Ike.

            It does seem we have depleted much of our equipment/supplies reserves to send to Ukraine and now Israel without much mfg capacity and subsequent long lead times for replenishment. It also seems much of the pre positioned equipment/materials we had in the middle east have gone to Ukraine. You can bet there is not a big stock of 155mm shells waiting to be given to the Israelis.

            I saw analysis recently that figured we had about a weeks worth of armaments if we got into a war with China over Taiwan. We’ve fallen a long way from the industrial capacity that churned out weapons in WWII.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’ve seen all that as well, not to mention the DOD is looking to cut USASOC by 20%. We always have a propensity to fight out last war, it appears the DOD thinks we are going to be fighting big land wars again, instead of Urban Combat. Zero lessons from Somalia have been retained.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            If I was in the service today I would be very nervous after watching how the Russian army has evolved to meet the challenges of modern larger scale land wars over the last 20 months. The evolution of modern ISR, drones and smart weapons has been transformative. Our weapons and tactics have not been successful for the Ukrainians. It has been an eye opener.

            We spent the last 2 decades killing medieval farmers armed with AKs, RPGs and IEDs. The Russians spent that time doing R&D. We’re at least a generation behind on hypersonics, EW, and production with a MIC that can’t seem to do a lot right, from the F35 to driving ships and subs.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “If I was in the service today I would be very nervous after watching how the Russian army has evolved to meet the challenges of modern larger scale land wars over the last 20 months. ”

            If Ukrainian Celeb and Chief wasn’t floated by the US, Russia would’ve taken what they wanted and left. We repaid them in Afghanistan for Vietnam and now they are doing the same in Ukraine to us, it’s just a vicious cycle.

            “Our weapons and tactics have not been successful for the Ukrainians.”
            That’s because they are having their very own Vietnam, no one wants to fight so they force them into service.

            “The Russians spent that time doing R&D. We’re at least a generation behind on hypersonics, EW, and production with a MIC that can’t seem to do a lot right, from the F35 to driving ships and subs”

            That’s because winning wars isn’t good of the bottom line, continued conflict with all that money provided for R&D is.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            If our MIC was half as good at designing and building weapons as it is as going to the bank we’d be in much better shape.

          6. Lefty665 Avatar

            If our MIC was half as good at designing and building weapons as it is as going to the bank we’d be in much better shape.

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            If our MIC was half as good at designing and building weapons as it is as going to the bank we’d be in much better shape.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            It’s not necessarily their lack of ability, they don’t engage the war fighters. They engage the Generals for their pet projects, case and point the AF’s continued push to remove the A10 from service, all in favor of the F35.

            The war fighters aren’t getting what they need, the General’s and other are getting contracts to their employment following their retirement.

  18. I completely reject the both sides argument. Even now, relief could come to Gaza and further bloodshed avoided if Hamas would give up their captives and surrender. Have their supporters called for that? No.

    Not mentioned in comments to date is that Hamas is doing everything possible to prevent Gaza citizens from fleeing dangerous areas. They want human shields. This is not new.

    “I dealt with this at the United Nations. You’re going to hear all of those Arab countries vilify Israel for what’s about to happen,” she continued. “We should care about the Palestinian citizens, especially the innocent ones, because they didn’t ask for this. But where are the Arab countries? Where are they? Where is Qatar? Where is Lebanon? Where is Jordan? Where is Egypt? Do you know we give Egypt over a billion dollars a year? Why aren’t they opening the gates? Why aren’t they taking the Palestinians?”

    “You know why? Because they know they can’t vet them, and they don’t want Hamas in their neighborhood,” she added. “So why would Israel want them in their neighborhood? So let’s be honest with what’s going on. The Arab countries aren’t doing anything to help the Palestinians because they don’t trust who is right, who is good, who is evil, and they don’t want it in their country.”

    WATCH:

    https://youtu.be/rs_hCX_JmyM

    1. Lefty665 Avatar

      White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said it’s “absolutely critical” that Israel “embrace the rule of law and the laws of war.”

      Israeli forces have blocked supplies from entering Gaza and prevented Palestinians from leaving the 25-mile-long territory. Gaza’s sole power plant has been shut down because of a lack of fuel.

      https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/oct/15/hezbollah-carries-out-fresh-missile-strikes-northe/

      Rationalizing your side’s war crimes on what the bad guys are doing means there is no way to tell them apart.

      1. I do not condone war crimes. The facts regarding Israel’s actions will be clearer after the fog of war has lifted.

        In the meantime, I think condemning that which is not in dispute makes more sense. Hamas is evil, and has done the inexcusable. The current suffering is a direct result of Hamas atrocities.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          Sorry, you cannot push off into the fog of war what we already know. Israel’s attack of Palestinian civilians with phosphorus, bombs and shells in Gaza City is a war crime, as is the cutting off of electricity, water and food. It is really pretty simple.

          What is worse is falling into Hamas’s trap of luring Israel into urban warfare in Gaza City. Emotional overreaction will be just as fatal for Israel as it was for US after 911.

          Outrage at Hamas’s attacks is appropriate, emotional rationalization of war crimes in response is not.

          Dead children are still dead no matter who kills them.

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          Sorry, you cannot push off into the fog of war what we already know. Israel’s attack of Palestinian civilians with phosphorus, bombs and shells in Gaza City is a war crime, as is the cutting off of electricity, water and food. It is really pretty simple.

          What is worse is falling into Hamas’s trap of luring Israel into urban warfare in Gaza City. Emotional overreaction will be just as fatal for Israel as it was for US after 911.

          https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israeli-conflict-takes-eschatological

          Outrage at Hamas’s attacks is appropriate, emotional rationalization of war crimes in response is not.

          Dead children are still dead no matter who kills them.

          1. Simple? Even now rockets are being shot at Israel. They should just continue to take casualties indefinitely and do nothing?

            Wouldn’t the best option for Gaza citizens be to evacuate them?

            “I’ve heard directly from Palestinian Authority President [Mahmoud] Abbas and from virtually every other leader that I’ve talked to in the region, that that idea is a non-starter, and so we do not support it,” Blinken says during an interview with Al Arabiya from Cairo.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            One of Israel’s goals is to move all the Palestinians out of Gaza. Unfortunately the only place for them to go is Egypt, and the Egyptians are not having it.

            Also, the Israelis by shelling the evacuation route effectively ensured that many Palestinians would not evacuate. There is a good argument that mandating evacuation then shelling the civilians only evacuation route is another war crime.

            It will be stupid for Israel to fall into Hamas’s trap and put under equipped and untrained Israeli reservists into urban warfare in Gaza City. That will ensure carnage, material amounts of which will be Israeli reservists. That would simply compound the folly of allowing Hamas’s assault in the first place.

            Israel has screwed up badly. They may not have any “good” options now. But as always, the first thing you have to do when in a hole is to stop digging.

          3. If Hamas is successful with using human shields to protect it from answering for what it has done, then evil prevails, and the world becomes an even more dangerous place.

          4. Lefty665 Avatar

            Your lust for revenge ill becomes you. It simply leads to more carnage and more dead babies all around.

            A cartoon I posted the other day illustrates the issue well. I will repost it in hopes it will make more sense to you this time:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe18e9a7609baca01517a995b205ad8a1832a9c3775e7c569600d6cd082d8585.jpg

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            And killing the innocent shields to get at Hamas is any less evil? What do you want to do with the hostages, kill them too to get at Hamas? The innocent civilians will be dead and evil will have prevailed. Will that be a better evil because it is Israeli evil? The dead cannot tell the difference, but it is likely they do not share your value judgement.

            Asymmetric warfare is tough stuff, it is how the powerless resist the powerful. Neither you nor I are experts in it. What we can be sure of is that it will be less prevalent if the powerful quit abusing the powerless. That would make the world a less dangerous place.

            The cartoon I posted the other day observed: “The more we hit them the more they sting us. The more they sting us the more we hit them.”

            That way is madness and a guarantee of more death, destruction and danger. That has been the pattern of the last 75 years in Palestine. Perhaps it is time to try another way.

            To get out of a hole you first have to stop digging.

  19. Lefty665 Avatar

    American Jewish groups: “Stop Genocide of Palestinians.”

    The group described itself as “a movement of American Jews organizing our community to end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system and demand equality, justice, and a thriving future for all Palestinians and Israelis.”

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/30-arrested-protest-white-house-ceasefire-gaza

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