School Discipline in Virginia – Part 2 – Positive Options Trumped by a Race Card

From social media video of school fight

by James C. Sherlock

I have found both surprise and confusion among some readers when I use the term “valid studies” in discussing the avalanche of doctoral theses and studies produced annually by schools of education.

The federal Institute for Educational Sciences established What Works Clearinghouse (WWC) in 2002 to sort the wheat from the chaff for school divisions and state education agencies before they choose a particular intervention to pursue to solve a problem.

Since I discovered WWC a few years ago, I check it in my own research in an attempt to make sure I don’t go down a rabbit hole with some study that is flawed.

On the subject of Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports (PBIS), WWC shows in assessments of interventions to solve problems of social-emotional learning and behavior management:

  1. strong evidence that PBIS offers no measurable improvement, and
  2. that there are alternative approaches to PBIS that do show strong improvement.

One study of PBIS, conducted in Maryland (which will come up again later), was the only one ever to meet strict WWC standards of quality and strong evidence.

Strong evidence from that trial — in 2010 — found that PBIS did not work to improve social-emotional development and behavior in K-5 children.

There were no positive findings. None.

Yet a very large number of Virginia’s largest school divisions use it anyway.

And all of them started using it after that 2010 study.

But then again, so did Maryland.

So what does work?  So does anything make it through this screen with a rating of strong evidence to improve student behavior?  The answer is yes.

And the list is long.

Filter it on the left column for Tier 1 Strong Evidence and again for Social- Emotional Learning and Behavior.  You will find that there are 18 strong confidence studies that meet WWC standards without reservations.

Only two of those show no positive findings.

 

There is strong evidence that PBIS has no positive value in SEL and student behavior, which are its reason for being.

On the other hand, the evidence for Class-wide function-related intervention teams “CW-FIT” efficacy trial outcomes in grades K-5 was astonishingly strong, very close to the maximum possible improvement in behavior compared to the control group.

Those positive options are each demonstrated as positive for Black kids.

Do teachers in your local school division use CW-FIT? Or PBIS?  Or, perhaps both.  CW-FIT can be executed in a PBIS framework.

Overview of WWC.  The best way to get an overview of what WWC does and how it does it is to go to WWC’s Evidence Tiers and WWC Ratings page.

The four YouTube videos offered there are sufficient to guide your use of the system.

You will see that WWC standards are highly complex and technical, but are used to achieve and to offer confidence in interventions into educational practice to states and individual school divisions.

Perhaps the most valuable is the video How States Can Use the WWC to Inform Evidence Use under ESSA.  I recommend it to school divisions as well.

Graduate Schools of Education.  There are few professions with as many practitioners holding post-graduate degrees as education.

See the IES National Center for Educational Statistics chart below.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr

 

There are at least four major problems with that:

  1. Teachers and administrators are being taught some educational interventions that have been scientifically validated but others that have not;
  2. The General Assembly and VDOE have in the past taken their cues from the Graduate Schools of Education in legislation, guidelines design and program financial support;
  3. Those institutions have feathered their own nests with the insertion of graduate school training requirements into legislation and VDOE policy for a lot of useless nonsense; and,
  4. In the case of PBIS, they played and continue to play, from the bottom of the deck, the race card to get it widely accepted by progressive school boards.

The ed schools are utterly relentless on the subject of PBIS.

Professor Catherine P. Bradshaw was recently appointed as Senior Associate Dean for Research & Faculty Development at the UVa School of Education and Human Development.

She heads a Preventive Interventions Team: Collaborative Research on Engagement and Wellbeing whose major research project is MTSS-B/PBIS/SEL.

Much of this work has been conducted in close partnership with the Maryland State Department of Education and the PBIS Maryland initiative. A related line of research focused on school policies and scale-up of PBIS in Maryland and a focus on implementation supports for PBIS.

Maryland again.  “Scale-up of PBIS in Maryland.”

The same Maryland where the 2010 study was conducted that was assessed by WWC to provide strong evidence that PBIS was of no positive value.

PBIS is the ed schools’ most prominent play of the race card.

It was founded specifically to break what, led by the ed school at the University of Oregon, the education establishment discovered to be “the school-to-prison pipeline” for Black students.  Itself an artifact of course, of “systemic racism.”

With those terms of reference nothing, not even the fact that WWC has found strong evidence that it offers no positive benefits, will deter ed schools – or some bullied and uninformed legislatures and school divisions – from supporting it.

The race card works … and the pea is never under the shell.

I hope WWC gives the General Assembly, VDOE and school divisions the tools to do their own research before buying pigs in pokes that the ed schools are more than occasionally selling.

And won’t ever stop selling.

Teachers unions, if they wish to earn their dues, may want to consider workplace safety and ask school divisions to drop PBIS in favor of initiatives proven to actually work and lower the violence against their members.

And help the kids at the same time.

 


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60 responses to “School Discipline in Virginia – Part 2 – Positive Options Trumped by a Race Card”

  1. vicnicholls Avatar
    vicnicholls

    Capt have you broached this to the education heads in Richmond?

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Sent them a copy.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      It will be overwhelmingly supported by Conservatives. CW-FIT. It has what they’re all about, Country-Western, and pitching a fit.

  2. Teddy007 Avatar

    Once again, if one wants schools with very good discipline and no behavioral disruptions, then one has to tolerate higher levels of suspensions, expulsions, failures, and dropout. One also has to be willing to tolerate than black students will be punished more than white or Asian students.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      that’s sorta back when folks were looking at data and seeing much higher discipline referrals for the same offenses for blacks… and from that point……. the scrum began….

    2. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      Zero tolerance doesn’t care. Here is the standard and we really don’t care about anything else. Violations will be punished in accordance with predefined criteria.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar

      You guys don’t get it. Good teachers and good administrators can deal successfully with most problems without resorting to punitive punishments like suspensions or expulsions. Keep the big club in the closet so it is there if it is needed, but staff has failed in most instances where expulsion is the remedy.

      What it takes is:

      More pay to attract better teachers
      More teachers to reduce class size
      Better training for teachers/administrators so they can manage classrooms
      Better training for teachers/administrators so they can better manage problem behaviors

      The whole state suffers when problem kids are dumped instead of educated. Each of those blighted lives is a life long drag on everyone, and it costs more to keep them in jail than to educate them. Even if you don’t care about the kids, care about the rest of us.

      It’s a huge problem, and problem kids we can’t deal with are just the symptoms. Reform has to start with our higher education and state educators and work its way down to schools and classrooms. We can start by using some of our surplus this year to pay teachers better to attract better teachers and more of them.

      Punitively whacking problem kids does not solve the problem. There will be another crop next year and the ones thrown out this year will be wreaking havoc on the streets, and stressing cops. courts and jails. Repeat next year and the year after…

      1. Teddy007 Avatar

        Written by someone who seems to know nothing about human nature but believes that every student can learn calculus if the teachers are paid enough, if classes are small enough, and if the best methods are used. Non-sense. If one has nothing but chaos at home, the students will be chaos at school. Then the school is left is trying to help that student learn while lowering the quality for everyone else, or to kick the troublemaker out.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          We can teach everyone how to read, which the schools are not doing now. Reading is the key to having the opportunity for a constructive unchaotic life. The Gov has launched an initiative to accomplish exactly that.

          We can also socialize unsocialized kids, many of whom come from poor, often chaotic homes run by young single women who themselves are poorly educated and socialized.

          We can do that for all students without lowering standards for everyone. Lowering standards in the pursuit of equity fools gold is exactly the wrong approach. It leads to more chaos and further lowered standards for everyone. It is a viscous cycle.

          It takes skilled teachers and administrators to deal with these problems. We do not get them now because we do not pay well enough to attract both skilled people or enough of them.

          It does not help that our education colleges are not preparing aspiring teachers to manage classrooms or administrators how to manage disruptive behaviors.

          In the end there is a residue of kids with such severe disabilities that they must be dealt with in alternative more restrictive settings. That number is very small if our schools are smart about solving problems.

          My opinions come from my wife’s experience as a special ed teacher who routinely dealt successfully with school kids who had severe disabilities and a history of very disruptive behavior. It can be done.

          You can bet your butt that she would not have missed a gun on a 6 year old like they did in Newport News.

          Incompetence compounds problems, competence solves them. That is human nature.

          Kicking unsocialized illiterate kids out of school to live marginal, stunted lives on the street breeds violence, crime and chaos for us all. That is also human nature.

          Which do you want? You pays your money and you takes your choice.

          1. Teddy007 Avatar

            Everyone cannot be taught to read at the 12th grade level anymore than everyone can be taught to read a map. And socializing children is one of the most overrated aspects. Forcing introverts to be surrounded by people in a crowded environment hurts as many students as it helps. If schools do anything, they make life better for sociopaths who likes to prey on others.
            Remember, higher standards result in the trade off of higher failures. If the public could tolerate a higher rate of failure, education policy would be easier.
            Still, anyone who believes that everyone can learn calculus should be kept far away from education policy.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            You’re setting up straw men.That’s a game for fools.

            Your fantasy about calculus for all is just that, it has no relationship to the real world.

            People do not have to read at 12th grade level. We do have to quit turning out illiterates, The ability to read street signs and instructions is vital. The Gov’s initiative is to have all kids reading at 3rd grade level by the 3rd grade. If that is successful it is a huge leg up on giving kids the opportunity to live decent lives.

            School is not just for average middle class kids, not too dumb, not too bright and moderately socialized. Unfortunately that’s the same people our education colleges are teaching to teach more of the same. When we compound that with a big dose of CRT and DIE it is a recipe for the declining achievement and chaos we are seeing in our schools.

            Calling socialization overrated is bizarre. Failure of socialization is the cause of the discipline problems that you want to expel kids for. While perhaps ineffective, socialization is what PBIS that Sherlock rails at is aimed at improving. You can have either side of that argument, but not both,

            No, higher standards do not mean higher failures. They recognize that all abilities are not equal. That’s why we have grades. As recognize achieving higher standards. Cs not so much. Our schools have to change to stop abandoning kids with Fs because we are too incompetent to socialize them to function in class and to teach them basics.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “It is really hard to discuss education with someone who does not understand that discipline problems are generally caused by sociopaths and no amount of effort by the schools is going to fix the sociopaths”

            It’s harder to discuss a topic with someone who flippantly calls people sociopath’s when that requires a medical diagnosis they aren’t qualified to provide.

          4. Lefty665 Avatar

            Yes! Sociopath is a very specific disorder and one that is, although too prevalent, not common.

            To write off school discipline problems and the kids who cause them as sociopathic is at best profoundly naive and, as you note, a skill well beyond any of us here at BR.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Edit: Comment to the wrong person.

            I completely agree, it’s misguided, but I don’t expect much from someone who utilizes that many strawmen.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            You’re making more and more strawmen, the more you speak.

            No one has contended that everyone can learn calculus, nor that they will read at a 12th grade level.

            You also don’t have a clue about “human nature”.

          7. Teddy007 Avatar

            But one should view every education policy to see if the person is using the idea that everyone can learn calculus (or latin or physics or any other hard subject). When one is writing that better teachers, better methods, more mental health workers will improve academic achievement, the one is pushing the idea that everyone can learn a hard topic is enough resources are used. That is wrong. Once again, the first issue with education is that it is Darwinian, not everyone can master calculus and not everyone can get admitted to Harvard. The second issue with education is that higher standards lead to more failures or lower standards lead to higher graduation rates. Most Americans have no idea how low the high school graduation rates were in the U.S. in previous decades. The third point of education is that a significant number of students are sociopaths and nothing can be done about it. The only question is whether having the sociopaths in school is better for society than not having them in schools.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            You’re again, setting up strawmen.

            If you’re unwilling to make an argument based upon what people are actually stating, you’re not worth having a conversation with.

            As commonly occurs, you don’t know what Darwin actually stated. Which was adaptation (mutation) occurs in nature for the continuation of a spices.

            Higher standards do not lead to more failures.

            “The third point of education is that a significant number of students are sociopaths and nothing can be done about it.”

            No, no they aren’t and you do posses the required medical degree or observation to make that statement.

            If you want to go down that path, you’ll have to address why you’re displaying “sociopathic” tendencies in your comments.

          9. Teddy007 Avatar

            Do, what eduation does these days is reward those best adapted to education and when the stress is increased, then those best adapted to that stress succeed. Tom Nichols uses the idea that Ivy League students are great maze runners like the best rats because they are adapted to meeting all of the requirements and will not question.

            Also, if not calculus, what is the first topic that less than 90% of students can master? Algebra? Chemistry? Literature interpretation? And high standards to lead to more failures. It is the point of having high standards.

            And if one talks to a high school teacher, dealing with the sociopaths is a big issue with teacher retention and people wanting to be teachers. Look at how schools haze new teachers by assigning new teachers to the remedial classes so that the sociopaths will run many of them out of teaching.
            And thank you for resorting to insults, it really shows the weakness of ones arguments versus data.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Do, what eduation does these days is reward those best adapted to education and when the stress is increased, then those best adapted to that stress succeed.”

            The irony of this statement abounds. Also, putting someone in a high stress environment to perform doesn’t work with all people.

            Basic reading, writing and mathematics is all that is required to graduate. I’d venture to guess you clearly don’t know what is required to graduate or even pass the SOL’s.

            Again, you’re using a term you’re not qualified to use.

            “And thank you for resorting to insults, it really shows the weakness of ones arguments versus data.”

            So you labeling others sociopath’s is not “insulting” but pointing out you’re demonstrating socipathic characteristics is?

            “Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental disorder in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others.

            Every single one of your comments has that bolded text in common, thereby making my statement an observation not an insult. You’d better help yourself learning the difference.

            Oh and you haven’t provided any data, you’ve provided bad opinions based on strawmen.

          11. Teddy007 Avatar

            The basics is all that is required now because graduation rates are more important than academic learning. Increasing standards, demanding attendance, getting rid of fluff classes will decrease graduation rates. That is a certainty. That is why the standards are so low for many schools at present. And once again, resorting to insults why claiming that the U.S. can be Lake Wobegon shows the weakness of one’s positions. Throwing more resources at education without accepting a higher failure rate and a higher drop out rate will result in just more wasted money. The real tell on education is when school districts create alternative high schools so that more educators could be employed on the lowest rate of return students at the same time that lab sciences were being cut.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “The basics is all that is required now because graduation rates are more important than academic learning.”

            Um no, the basics were always only what were required.

            “than academic learning. Increasing standards, demanding attendance, getting rid of fluff classes will decrease graduation rates. That is a certainty.”

            No.

            “And once again, resorting to insults why claiming that the U.S. can be Lake Wobegon shows the weakness of one’s positions.”

            Clearly you don’t know what an “insult” is.

            “The real tell on education is when school districts create alternative high schools so that more educators could be employed on the lowest rate of return students at the same time that lab sciences were being cut.”

            No, what is really telling. Is that you have no idea what you’re talking about and when that is brought to your attention you either lash out or generate a fallacy.

          13. Teddy007 Avatar

            1954 was the first year that more than 50% of 19y/o in the U.S. had graduated from high school. Weed out classes existed in colleges until the 1990’s. Now a school district that fails 50% of its students could be on the national news. A college that had 50% of its students drop out or change to an easy major is called a failure factor. The world has changed and too many people keep thinking that it has not.
            In 2023, the average public school student is non-white, on free lunch, and lives with one parent (the mother who is not married). The idea that social programs, higher standards, and more resources will greatly improve academic achievement is delusional.
            And virtually every large school district has an alternative high school. Those schools get the students who should have been expelled or should have dropped out. The teacher-student ratio is lower and the money spent on the student, per capita, is higher. That is a huge tell on why education in the U.S. is so bad.
            But keep up the insults, it makes my points so well.

          14. Lefty665 Avatar

            “1954 was the first year that more than 50% of 19y/o in the U.S. had graduated from college”

            Uh, that, like so many of your assertions, is demonstrably and obviously false.

            Never have more than 50% of 19 year olds in the U.S. graduated from college.

          15. Teddy007 Avatar

            That was an error that has been corrected. Sorry. It was high school. Those who claim that high schools used to be better at educating students are wrong and the claim is not supported by the data.

          16. Lefty665 Avatar

            “That was an error that has been corrected. Sorry.”

            Good work.

            Now please show the same enthusiasm for correcting the rest of your errors.

          17. Teddy007 Avatar

            Once again, insults never work. There is not data that shows that one can hold students to higher standards and there will not be more failures. One cannot force people to learn.

          18. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            What does college gradation have to do with high school?

            I have an engineering degree, do you have any idea how many change majors?

            “In 2023, the average public school student is non-white, on free lunch, and lives with one parent (the mother who is not married).”

            Citation, not opinion.

            “The idea that social programs, higher standards, and more resources will greatly improve academic achievement is delusional.”

            False

            “And virtually every large school district has an alternative high school. Those schools get the students who should have been expelled or should have dropped out”

            Again, citation.

            “But keep up the insults, it makes my points so well.”

            Telling you that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about isn’t an insult, it’s a fact.

          19. Lefty665 Avatar

            “And virtually every large school district has an alternative high
            school. Those schools get the students who should have been expelled or should have dropped out”

            All kids have the right to an education, not just the easy ones. It’s called “due process” that we all presumably believe in.

            It is also in all our self interests that we do not create an ever growing marginalized criminal underclass comprised of people expelled from our educational system.

            That’s why we have special education and alternative settings. Public education is for everyone, and we all benefit from it.

          20. Lefty665 Avatar

            “And virtually every large school district has an alternative high
            school. Those schools get the students who should have been expelled or should have dropped out”

            All kids have the right to an education, not just the easy ones. It’s called “due process” that we all presumably believe in.

            It is also in all our self interests that we do not create an ever growing marginalized criminal underclass comprised of people expelled from our educational system.

            That’s why we have special education and alternative settings. Public education is for everyone, and we all benefit from it.

          21. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Amen, praise the Lord (or whomever your preferred deity is) and pass the ammunition!

    4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      You are generally correct, but if you examine some of the studies with positive benefits, like the one I highlighted, you will see that all demographics exhibited better behavior than the control groups. They raise all boats.

      The political issue is that those trials were not designed with race in the forefront. PBIS stole that banner and continues to run with it. Even though it is proven ineffective, and thus endangers everyone in the schools.

      You and I will call that crazy and worse, but there it is.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        re: ” The political issue is that those trials were not designed with race in the forefront. PBIS stole that banner and continues to run with it. Even though it is proven ineffective, and thus endangers everyone in the schools.”

        It might be fair to say that PBIS was designed IN RESPONSE to racial disparities with other methods.

        And calling it “ineffective” means what? That it performs worse than prior methods, or just no better?

        Finally, does PBIS result in less racial disparities?

        Does PBIS result in WORSE disciplinary outcomes?

        You’re making some fairly wide and generalized assertions that may not be so.

        The most convincing studies will be the ones that COMPARE the different methods between schools or even in the same school if it went from one method to the other.

        The most damming assertion that is actually proven would be that PBIS results in less racial disparities but worse outcomes on the most serious offenses.

        You (and probably JAB) seem convinced that discipline in the schools has gone to hell in a handbasket, AND that it’s due to changes in discipline in response to racial issues, i.e. not disciplining black kids that should be.

        I’m not sure you have conclusively proven that at all.

  3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “There is strong evidence that PSIS has no positive value in SEL and student behavior, which are its reason for being.”

    I wouldn’t quite go that far. You have argued the point that student behavior is reflected in standardized test scores. From the referenced study which you seem to accept:

    “Finally, we examined the impact of training in SWPBIS on gains in standardized test achievement scores. Although none of the four tests reached statistical significance, the improvements observed in the SWPBIS schools tended to outpace the improvements observed in the nontrainedi schools on three of the four tests.”

    Figure attached for reference.

    Aside: I thought you said there were no studies on this topic… yet here is at least one…

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e4110020dceaecf1ca67f3a2504659829d7ef0a01a81a637ea873eb699cf5e13.jpg

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Yesterday – No studies that showed positive values. Today, one study that showed that it has no value.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        Also from your study – and contradicting your claim…

        “Conclusion
        Taken together, the findings of this study suggest that training in SWPBIS is associated with large and sustain- able changes in the number and types of schoolwide posi- tive behavior supports provided to students. These results also provide support for the effectiveness of SWPBIS as a method for reducing ODRs and suspensions among elementary school students.”

        You said nothing about positive or negative value yesterday. You said:

        “The federal Institute of Educational Sciences (IES) records show there does not exist a single valid study of PBIS outcomes. From a huge available database of schools who have implemented it.”

        Also, no comment on the other IES study I provided yesterday…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          True that.

        2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Different search terms. I am sure you share happy I found the one I discovered today. You’re welcome.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Are there any Schools in Virginia that are using CW-FIt and/or other non PBIS approaches?

            Can we assume that schools that are not using PBIS are continuing to use older methods ? Or have some switched from older methods /PBIS to alternatives?

        3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          “My study?”

          You offer the conclusion of the study writers. IES found that the evidence the authors claimed “taken together” led them to that conclusion should not have done so.

          As for the study you offered yesterday, it does not appear on IES’ list which I shared in the article of those offering strong evidence of positive benefits. I use IES lists. I don’t have views on such matters independent of theirs because they are way more qualified to make those judgments than I am. How about you?

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            If you look at it, you will note it is THEIR study. Might be worth your click.

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      IES went that far.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        I don’t believe they did. You took the extra step they did not. The study clearly shows positive conclusions. The key terms seem to be “strong” and “statistically significant”. Quite different from “no value”.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          What does “statistical significance “ mean to you? To me, it means within the statistical margin of error – insufficiency of volume of valid data for conclusions to be drawn – yet you wish to draw them. So, apparently did the authors, who offer their views on what the data “suggest”.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            It is you who is drawing absolute conclusions of “no value” when the data presented not only does not support them but “suggests” quite the opposite.

          2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            It is you who is drawing absolute conclusions of “no value” when the data presented not only does not support them but “suggests” quite the opposite.

  4. Lefty665 Avatar

    It appears your real issue with PBIS is how it is being used, to promote CRT and woke racist ideology. That is different than the potential effectiveness of behavioral programming itself. The chart shows that PBIS “meets WWC standards without reservation”.

    The appropriate target is CRT and woke racism that appears to have infested our higher education and by extension VDoE and local school systems. By going after the tool that is being misused to achieve inappropriate ends you take the focus off the elephant in the room which is the issue you really care about.

    Also, among other things our schools of education are not educating future teachers to effectively manage classrooms. Note the #1 item on the chart you posted is classroom management.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      You missed the point of IES in that chart. They are saying that the study met their standards. They are also saying that it provided strong evidence that there is no positive value in PBIS.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        One might think given that assessment that schools would drop PBIS…

      2. Lefty665 Avatar

        Well no, what they said was no “statistically significant positive finding”. The chart posted by Eric shows positive findings on 3 of 4 measures.

        Again, PBIS is a vehicle Education schools and Departments of Education have used to push CRT. That is the bigger issue.

        PBIS is incidental to what is wrong with Virginia’s educational system. You do yourself and the issues you care about no service by staying fixated on PBIS.

        Get your head up, at this point you can’t see the forest for the trees.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          I’ll ask you the same question I asked Eric. What does “not statistically significant mean to you? What does “margin of error mean”. On second thought, never mind. You are challenging the assessments of the IES, not me.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            You are fighting the wrong battle. Get your head up. You can’t see the forest for the trees. You are smarter than that.

      3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        No it does not say that there is “strong evidence that there is no positive value in PBIS”. It states that there is “no strong evidence of effectiveness”. These are two very different statements and you appear to be intentionally misrepresenting the IES analysis at this point.

        1. You are correct. A lack of evidence of “A” is not the same thing as strong evidence of the opposite of “A”.

          Statistics does not work that way. Neither does science.

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Except the IES rating was strong evidence of no positive value. That means the the research was terrific and well modeled, but that the outcome showed no positive improvements.

            That is their judgment, not mine.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            no positive improvements compared to what?

          3. Not correct.

            The IES found no strong evidence of positive effect (at least that is what the chart you posted indicates).

            That is not the same thing as strong evidence of no positive effect.

          4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Except the IES rating was strong evidence of no positive value. That means the the research was terrific and well modeled, but that the outcome showed no positive improvements.

            That is their judgment, not mine.

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    There certainly is a lack of discipline. I ain’t so certain it’s in schools…
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/man-missing-both-legs-dies-190043459.html

    1. Lefty665 Avatar

      Schools certainly don’t have an exclusive franchise.

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