Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Regional Transportation Authorities + Gasoline Sales Tax?

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

Former VDOT Commissioner Ray Pethtel floats an idea for funding regional transportation authorities through a 2 percent retail sales tax on gasoline.

The General Assembly would need to create a statewide transportation district with optional or mandatory participation for localities. The statewide district would be governed by local elected officials. Each local government would be required to vote to become a member, satisfying the constitutional requirement.

The new statewide district would have authority to impose a 2 percent tax, again under existing law. In order to gain voluntary participation, legislation should allocate the funds to the regional entities of Northern Virginia, Richmond and Hampton Roads according to the amount collected in those areas. The district then could allocate the remaining funds through the statewide formulas to those jurisdictions that participate.

Since the tax is based on a percentage of the retail sales price of gas, the revenue would be sensitive to inflation. And there is an existing mechanism to collect retail taxes — so administration would not be costly.

Read the full proposal in the Roanoke Times.

Share this article

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

Comments

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    At todays prices, roguhly equal to 7 cents a gallon.

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Again,

    I would only support if it was pegged towards maintenance, or bike/ped/transit projects.

    – OGS

  3. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    what would you do for the NoVa localities that already levy a 2% ax for VRE?

    Was Pethtel not aware of that?

    Also.. why would a RoVa locality levy a local option 2% tax to send to Richmond to reallocate – in some fashion different from sending all the revenues back to the locality?

    Why send it to Richmond in the first place?

    Why would a locality agree to do that?

    It’s a start.. in terms of a creative approach.. but needs more tweaking…

    perhaps a VDOT/STATE “match” for localities.. so eventually they get what they put into it and a little more… or some other “carrots”.

    and in terms of a contribution .. way better than the R’s “no mo tax” folks….

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I agree with Larry no RoVa legislator will agree with this.

    1. Its a tax increase

    2. It actually penalizes RoVa

    NoVa and TW/HR get to keep the money they put in in their region. The money raised in other localities gets distributed statewide. Why would a RoVa person agree to have there money raised split statewide when the money raised in NoVa and TW/HR gets to stay in the region.

    As a NoVa person this deal rocks. We get paid double but it will never fly

    I still say the only way for anything to get done is a statewide gas sales tax for the maintanence shortfall and then locally approved taxes if localities want more money for new improvements which would stay in the region

    NMM

  5. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “..I still say the only way for anything to get done is a statewide gas sales tax for the maintanence shortfall and then locally approved taxes if localities want more money for new improvements which would stay in the region”

    dead on….

    1. no more blaming VDOT for the consequences of rezones… now the BOS will bear responsibility..

    2. a big challenge to adjacent localities to see if they can reach regional consensus on roads both priorities and funding.

    One way to do this might be to allow a local option 2% tax where 1% MUST go for regional roads and 1% for local roads.

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    NMM – What is in a statewide tax increase for NoVA? It sounds like just one more raid on our pocketbooks for the benefit of RoVA, with another tax increase for ourselves to build our roads. Am I missing something?

    Second, unless and until Al Qaeda is captured, won’t most of the NoVA revenues go to fund development projects for the terrorists instead of playing catch up?

    I don’t trust anyone in Virginia on transportation matters. Not until Al Qaeda is captured and put out of action.

    I’m tired of being a Fairfax County patsy.

    TMT

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    TMT first of all it would help if we had some numbers and we could all agree to them :-p

    In terms of new construction dollars I think NoVa generally benefits

    If you agree with that then

    With the current raiding of the transportation trust fund that is money that could be going to new projects that is instead going to maintanence. (net loss for NoVa)

    It would then be in NoVa interest to have maintanence fully funded and allow the TTF to go back to funding new projects only

    Hopefully this is clear enough for ya :-p

    I do agree with you that if NoVa doesn’t have a net proportional gain on receiving new construction dollars there is no point in fixing the TTF. The best policy is to totally go at it alone then.

    I’m tired of also being a Fairfax County patsy

    NMM

  8. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    “The General Assembly would need to create a statewide transportation district with optional or mandatory participation for localities. The statewide district would be governed by local elected officials. Each local government would be required to vote to become a member, satisfying the constitutional requirement.”

    And this is different from regional authorities how? Both are governed by local elected pollies. Membership was approved by the local councils. No where are THE PEOPLE mentioned. Frankly, I don’t see any difference between a statewide district and a regional authority. Both are shifts of responsibility and authority from the GA. And that’s where the Supreme Court drew the line.

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    NMM – The problem remains that the process is corrupt. Besides sending dollars to RoVA, the dollars that remain are not used for their highest and best use, but rather, are used to build things that foster some developer’s landholdings (This is the Al Qaeda reference.)

    If we provide more tax dollars, we are as likely to see the building of the Tri-County Parkway than we are to see the 100 worst intersections and bottlenecks fixed.

    We are in a leaking rowboat. More tax dollars could be used to patch the leaks, but under the current corrupt process, the additional revenue would be use to buy more bits and braces. We’d have more holes in the boat.

    Let’s have a five-year period when tax dollars only go to projects that improve safety and reduce congestion. For five years, the fellers who own land can either build their own roads and rail or let their land sit vacant!

    As I said, Al Qaeda must be captured and disarmed before any taxes or fees are raised. Otherwise, we’ll spend billions and have even more traffic problems.

    TMT

  10. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Before I forget –

    I am also tired of being a Fairfax County patsy.

    Beyond that –

    This is an idea on the right track. Still wrong but on the right track.

    I guess the proposal is more to get around the constitutional problems with the original Regional Transportation Authorities.

    No locality in RoVA will vote for this for their region. That’s kind of the point. Nobody in RoVA will try to oppose it as a truely statewide measure either – because it’s very clearly not a statewide measure even though (for legal reasons) it has to be a statewide vote. As you might see, I am kind of guessing here. This is sort of like Judge Dillon mating with the Cheshire Cat while 140 mental zombies from “Richmond” look on.

    So, this would give us money being raised in a region and spent in that region. Now all we need is for “Richmond” to butt out of how the money is spent. Who can forget the NoVA toll lanes for transit buses “bait and switch” to VRE from just two weeks ago? If “Richmond” decides how the money is spent (even within the region is was raised) all is lost. The regions need to set their own priorities with their own money (novel idea for the Old Con-minion).

    TMT’s point still stands. We have not disarmed Al Queda (developers and their corrupt influence). However, we have disarmed the Taliban (Va state legislature). So, we’re down to a one enemy war. Now, it’s up to us. We gotta get the BoS’ out of the pockets of the developers. We do that through visible accounting of the money raised and spent and pressure on the local pols to explain the priorities. Normally, I’d say there is no chance. But a merciful spirit has brought the transportation crisis and the collapse of the development bubble together at the same time. If there was ever a moment to strike a blow for freedom from the tyranny of the developers (aka Al Qaeda) it is now. They have so few projects it may be hard for them to justify spending the usual payola on the BoS’. And once transparency breathes its first breath opacity is hard to revive.

    We have our moment. We must get the General Assembly back to the important work of debating whether to apologize for slavery, persecuting gay people, trying to find a new state song and ginning up power plants that must burn excessively expensive Virginia coal. I’d like to add even more critical tasks to their crucial agenda. A study to consider the pros and cons of Virginia switching to the metric system? I think the state bird needs careful reconsideration – cardinals are the birds of record for too many places. Schedule a special session of the “Richmond brain trust”. Do we have a state fish?

  11. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    “I guess the proposal is more to get around the constitutional problems with the original Regional Transportation Authorities.”

    But it doesn’t get around the constitutional problem. Mandatory membership without the citizens approval is unconstitutional when taxes are being controlled by the same non-elected elected officials that the regional authority had. Optional membership voted on by local government councils instead of the citizens is equally unconstitutional.

    The reason is simple. It doesn’t matter whether you call it an authority, a district, or a good ole boys club, it is still a defacto government requiring citizen approval when taxing accountability is involved. Besides, if the entire state is the district then why do we need a GA? Why, because the GA is a constitutionally recognized body and these back room deals aren’t.

  12. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Darrell — Chesapeake

    Here is the longer text from the Roanoke Times:

    “As luck would have it, there may be a way to address all three goals using existing law as the basis (or as the “vehicle” as legislators would put it) for compromise. Section 58.1-1720 of the Code of Virginia permits any jurisdiction or group of jurisdictions to create a transportation district.

    If the district is adjacent to the Northern Virginia Transportation District, it can levy a 2 percent tax on the retail price of gas. To implement a statewide district, assuming local governments don’t do it on their own, would likely require relatively simple legislative action by amending the existing law.

    The General Assembly would need to create a statewide transportation district with optional or mandatory participation for localities. The statewide district would be governed by local elected officials. Each local government would be required to vote to become a member, satisfying the constitutional requirement.

    The new statewide district would have authority to impose a 2 percent tax, again under existing law. In order to gain voluntary participation, legislation should allocate the funds to the regional entities of Northern Virginia, Richmond and Hampton Roads according to the amount collected in those areas. The district then could allocate the remaining funds through the statewide formulas to those jurisdictions that participate.

    Since the tax is based on a percentage of the retail sales price of gas, the revenue would be sensitive to inflation. And there is an existing mechanism to collect retail taxes — so administration would not be costly.

    As long as the district has continuous statewide connections and is adjacent to the Northern Virginia District, even if it looks like Swiss cheese, it could impose the tax.”.

    It’s not an authority, a district or a good ole boys club. It’s a statewide taxing authority with some holes in it. The elected authority is the GA who is raising taxes for the state whereby some regions can decide to opt out.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The Republicans PROMISED “if you give us the majority in the house and senate, we’ll fix transportation, schools and the out of control state spending”. That was 1997!

    11-years later and not only have they not fixed it, they tried to impose ILLEGAL, UNCONSTITUTIONAL forms of government on us and are stilling cooking up schemes that are no better.

    Clearly losing the Senate wasn’t a big enough wake up call for these idiots.

    Give the Democrats control of the house and lets see what they can do.

    By any measure, by any standard, the Republicans have been a miserable failure. Lets see if the Democrats can do better! I won’t vote for another Republican until they are all completely O-U-T!

  14. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    Sorry it took so long to respond. Had a hard time stopping laughing.

    Man, these guys really go out of their way to tick voters off. Amazing, let’s set up a string of districts and then we can say Danville and Tidewater have been relocated to Fairfax. Then we can tax them without worry. Can you imagine what would happen if the politicians bought off on this scheme?

    Well, I got news for them. What was it Albo said to the Washington Post when the Supreme Court ruled against their little kingdom? Oh yea, “No one wants to talk about it, because it could result in overturning water authorities, toll road authorities. . . . It could be a real nightmare,”.

    “No one seems to know. People have no idea how far-reaching this court decision may be,” he said.

    Like ‘transportation districts’ that impose gas taxes, for instance? Hey, go ahead open up that can of worms.

  15. James Atticus Bowden Avatar
    James Atticus Bowden

    Why do they insist on Regional Governments? I know the reason locally in Tidewater.

    But, what is the justification the GA would try to sell the public?

    Regional governments are full of politicians who are traffic engineers or civil engineers? Persons who have successfully managed multi-billion dollar projects? (Obviously not. And those are good for quite a laugh)

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    7:52 – Heck we know what the Democrats will do — pass a bill that replaces cash proffers with below-cost impact fees. That’s with Dick Saslaw in the van.

    Don’t forget that Bill Thomas has his Democrats trained (most of them anyway) to worship at the Temple of the Well Connected.

    Until Virginia elected officials start standing up to developers and their camp followers, we are all in trouble.

    We need people from both parties who think that taxpayer subsidies to development ought to stop.

    TMT

  17. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m confused.

    How is a 2% Statewide tax – Regional?

    One of the poster alluded to Va Law that allows the formation of a transportation authority by one or more localities who, as a benefit of regionally cooperating, are allowed to collect a 2% tax.

    I’m convinced that part of this is about a mechanism that allows (forces?) localities to cooperate (agree on priorities and funding) for projects that are regional in nature.

    NoVa seems to have not as much trouble doing this as RoVa does. HR/TW … despite having an MPO .. seems to not really like the idea of regionally cooperating with respect to roads.

    I “think” that is at least part of what we are hearing when folks say that the “State” should “do” roads.

    I could be totally wrong about this but that’s my take at this point.

    The Feds – 15-20 years ago came up with the MPO concept – basically forcing localities to cooperate regionally if they were to receive Federal funds…. carrot/stick…

    cooperate regionally = get more money

    or… is this about the R’s in the GA doing everything they can to cause (enable) an increase in gas taxes but claim that it was “approved” locally?

    so I think this is more than just about taxes…

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Sure. Let’s just create a statewide local transportation district so we can claim we haven’t enacted what is really needed – a substantial statewide tax increase.

  19. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    How HIGH would the increase in the gas tax need to be to provide the level of funding that NoVa and HR/TW say they need?

    Question: Are we headed for a local option for a gas tax increase?

    Will RoVa counties have the option of NOT having an increase in their localities and/or put it to their citizens as a referenda?

    Bonus Question: In the Republican “no mo taxes” scheme of things is it “acceptable” for citizens to agree to pay higher taxes via referenda?

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “is it “acceptable” for citizens to agree to pay higher taxes via referenda?”

    It’s a catch 22.

    Do you believe that politicians should be leaders, or just representatives?

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    How HIGH would the increase in ANY tax need to be to provide the level of funding that NoVa and HR/TW say they need?

    Isn’t it the same number?

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If it’s a question of how High or how Low the tax is, then isn’t that just a question of how large you can make the base?

    Lets not confuse high or low taxes with the amount of tax.

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Oh, yeah, and how many years you spread the tax over. If you start in 1987, then the tax is a lot “Lower”.

    RH

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    We need people from both parties who understand that development and construction represent about 25% of the economy and that unfair and unreasonable taxpayer subsidies to development ought to stop, while still not discouraging 25% of our paychecks.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Finally decided to crunch the numbers…

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041603370.html

    Under a revised statewide plan for transportation spending, Fairfax County would receive $54 million over six years, down from an estimated $96 million. The $24 million Loudoun County expected would be cut to $10.5 million, and Prince William County’s share would decrease to $20 million from $36 million. Transit funding would be cut 10 percent.

    So PW “wins” only 39% cut Loudoun gets hosed 56% cut and Fairfax is in the middle 44% cut.

    But wait a minute lets look at population

    2007 numbers

    Fairfax 1,042,470
    Loudoun 277,237
    Prince William 383,644

    formula is dollars received/population = dollars per person

    Old/revised

    Fairfax 92.1/51.8
    PW gets 93.8/52.1
    Loudoun gets 86.6/37.9

    Interesting I was pretty impressed how close the numbers are in Fairfax and PW.

    Poor Loudoun though glad I don’t live there maybe Fairfax really isn’t so bad :-p.

    I think it would be cool to crunch the numbers from other jurisdictions wink wink

    ___________________________________

    Heres the actual question though would people be willing to pay an extra $80 bucks (shortfall is half that but conservatively assuming only 50% of population is licensed driver) to make up the difference in funding.

    Thats 6.67 a month… bag lunch one day… no coffee 2-3 days… just something to think about

    Are we really arguing over $6.67 a month

    NMM

  26. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “…Are we really arguing over $6.67 a month”

    per capita? well sort of…

    if EVERYONE – all 7.5 million in Va paid 5 dollars a week MORE – it would generate … what… 7.5 x 5 x 52 =

    about 2 Billion more annually.

    that would be at one penny per 50 million… about 40 cents on the gas tax… right?

    let’s see… truth test here…

    40 cents a gallon on 10 gallons a week = 4 bucks…

    10 gallons a week in a 20mpg auto = 200 miles.. or 40 miles a day commute….

    yup… checks out…

    average commute is about 40 miles a day…

    just give up your daily latte and get a plain coffee instead.

    viola !!!!

    but RH has it right also.

    what we need is politicians that are willing to get elected to office, raise our taxes and get thrown out of office.. and then the next politician does the same thing… and over time.. we get the tax increases necessary and we get a steady turnover in politicians also.

    RH has a certain way of looking at things with great clarity.. don’t you think?

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Might we not achieve similar results with a five-year statewide moratorium on upzoning, coupled with a smaller increase in taxes?

    Real estate might well constitute a sizable part of the economy, but its costs are paid by virtually everyone in the form of decreased quality of life and higher taxes, while the benefits are generally confined to a smaller group of individuals.

    NMM – Assume the cost is $6.67 extra per week, what would we really get for that additional tax? Probably, nothing in terms of traffic congestion reduction; a boondoggle or two, and yet another call for even higher taxes in the future.

    The social contract is busted. It no longer serves the average resident. She/he pays more, for getting less. That doesn’t make sense in the long run.

    Until Al Qaeda is captured and disarmed, there will be strong resistence to paying higher taxes so that Al Qaeda can be supplied.

    TMT

  28. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    TMT:

    The Taliban (state government officials) also continue to terrorize the populance.

    From the WaPo article:

    “State lawmakers’ failure to increase funding for transportation improvements or come up with a way to allow Northern Virginia to raise its own taxes for such projects will result in a 44 percent reduction in statewide spending for roads over six years, according to projections released yesterday.”.

    The Taliban, operating under the equivalent of Sharia Law, show a religious devotion to Judge Dillon. “State lawmakers … failure to come up with a way to let Northern Virginia raise its own taxes…”.

    To all those on this blog who mistakenly insist that Dillon’s Rule is of no consequence – why should we need the “Richmond Reich’s” permission to tax ourselves to build roads we need? The answer is simple – the founding father of America’s Taliban movement is Judge Dillon. And the clown show in Richmond is continuing the American Talban movement by clinging to the discredited and failed ideas of Judge Dillon.

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    ….”will result in a 44 percent reduction in statewide spending for roads over six years,”

    helpful to understand if the reduction is solely due to the removal of the abusive Driver fees or other things…

    check it out for yourself:

    http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/RevisedTransportationRevenueForecast.pdf
    page 3

    the loss of the abusive fees (400 million) not the only problem…

    reduced revenues in other streams to include shortfalls in the gasoline tax of 200 million…

    they are also showing an additional shortfall of about 800 million in maintenance funding…

    VDOT is in deep Doo Doo… ergo.. any locality in Virginia looking for more highway projects.. is in deep Doo Doo…

    higher taxes or tolls is the only way out…

    If the HOT lanes go forward, NoVa is the only place that will have significant new revenues…

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Its pretty pathetic but the hot lanes aren’t going to be gnereating any real revenue at all

    The beltway project is finalized.

    http://www.virginiadot.org/news/resources/CO-0792.pdf

    VDOT is spending its own funds to upgrade phase 8 of the Springfield Interchange and fix the overpasses along the beltway

    The only thing the private company is on the hook for is the actual build out of the lanes and a couple extra access points

    After that is finished the rest of the HOT lane revenue is pure profit for the private company.

    The quote that takes the cake for me is this one

    Virginia
    “Have the right to build any other transportation improvement in the corridor. However, Fluor-Transurban may bid to construct those additional improvements.”

    oh boy we have permission to spend even more state money and Fluor can bid to do the work and basically get paid twice.

    So why are we selling out again. Couldn’t the state just float a bond to build the HOT lanes and then use the toll revenue to pay it back and hopefully get some extra revenue on the side

    NMM

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Might we not achieve similar results with a five-year statewide moratorium on upzoning, coupled with a smaller increase in taxes?”

    Well yes, but the moratorium will have costs, too.

    ——————————-

    “Real estate might well constitute a sizable part of the economy, but its costs are paid by virtually everyone in the form of decreased quality of life and higher taxes, while the benefits are generally confined to a smaller group of individuals.”

    Really?

    Compare the per capita assessed value in Loudoun and Fauquier 30 years ago, and them compare them today. Loudoun real estate growth has resulted in a higher per capita valuation to the tune of over $10,000 per person.

    They have also increased their per capita income over Fauquier to the tune of $3000 per person.

    How is that confined to a small gorup of people?

    Yep. They pay more taxes. They have all new schools, and they have more valuable homes to pay taxes on, and more money to pay taxes with.

    Their quality of life is different. So the question is whether Fauquier’s bucolic scenery is worth $10k in equity and $3k/year in cash, per person.

    EMR would argue that the population growth and what people are willing to spend shows what people want.

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “So why are we selling out again. Couldn’t the state just float a bond to build the HOT lanes and then use the toll revenue to pay it back and hopefully get some extra revenue on the side”

    Good question. If I was a public official I’d be embarrassed to claim that the people at Fluor are more than twice as smart as I am.

    RH

  33. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: something for nothing land values

    it’s land developers and speculators feeding off of public infrastructure that they don’t own…

    It’s the same game going on with Dulles Rail….

    the land valuations in Loudoun were gained at the expense overloading roads without adding capacity

    If the land that was developed had to pay it’s fair share of the additional transportation infrastructure that imposed on NoVa.. then what might have happened?

    What happened in Loudoun was that land-owners were made wealthy by developing land without having to pay for the infrastructure to serve it.

    … and the folks that approved it got voted out of office…

    what happened in Loudoun – in terms of valuations was driven in part at least by sub-prime loans.

    The “demand” for homes in Loudoun would not have been near so strong if loans were not be approved that should not have been in the first place.

    The new VDOT rules for subdivision roads and access management will put further restrictions on unbridled land speculation…a good thing…

    Everybody .. from BOS to VDOT to citizens now better understand the true cost of land speculation… another good thing..

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the land valuations in Loudoun were gained at the expense overloading roads without adding capacity”

    OK, say you are right. Who wound up with the land values?

    Not the Developers, but the residents and citizens. So lets not go around saying that NO ONE benefits but the developers, because it just isn’t true. Thousands of homeowners in Loudoun have benefited, even if it turns out their roads are crowded.

    “What happened in Loudoun was that land-owners were made wealthy by developing land without having to pay for the infrastructure to serve it.”

    Nice try, but it isn’t true. land owners are not developers. They sell their land for what they can get, since it wasn’t worth anything as anything else. Certainly not as farms. You can’t blame the landowners because not enough infrastrucure was built. What would they build it with anyway? They are selling the land because they are broke, not because they are ridch landowners.

    “what happened in Loudoun – in terms of valuations was driven in part at least by sub-prime loans.”

    OK, let’s say you are right. Come back in 20 years when the loans are paid off and compare the wealth of Loudoun residents and any rural county then. how much will the loans matter when they are paid off? If you are saying that sub prime loans made all those people own more and earn more, then lets have some more sub-prime loans!

    “it’s land developers and speculators feeding off of public infrastructure that they don’t own…”

    Wait. Didn’t you just say the infrastrucure was never developed, and that’s how the landowners got rich? Which is it – getting rich off the infrastructure or getting rich off of not building it?

    “the folks that approved it got voted out of office…”

    By the first environmentalists who moved in, right after they got their cabin in the woods. Now they want to keep everyone else out – take advantage of all that still unused space, without paying anything for it. As if green infrastructure was free, just by prohibiting bulding.

    “citizens now better understand the true cost of land speculation”

    What costs? Its the citizen owners that own all the results of land speculation. At the end of the day, THEY are the beneficiaries. They also have the loss of natural habitat, new schools, some crowded roads. There are ups and downs, but Loudoun is not the worst place in the world to live.

    All I pointed out was that 30 years ago Loudoun and Fauquier were on a par with respect to average value of land owned and average income.

    Today, they are not.

    Doesn’t matter what kind of countervaiing and curcular arguments you want to gin up. Doesn’t matter what the political, developer, or laon angle is.

    The end fact is that Loudoun residents own more and earn more. They also pay higher taxes, but they are still better off, as long as you only count monetary values.
    How it got that way is immaterial. Since they are in fact better off, you cannot rightly claim that the landowners or developers made off with all the riches: that is a lie.

    You can, of course, claim that FAuquier residents are better off due to more open space and different lifestyle. But when you do that you are putting a price on that FAuquier conservation: It has to be worth at least $4000 in income and $10,000 in property per person.

    Conservation is NOT free.

    RH

  35. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    The folks in Loudoun who make the high salaries would be better off no matter where they lived.

    They don’t “benefit” from the increased value – they created the demand for it…

    Those houses could have been (and are) in a lot of other places.

    The folks who voted the BOS out of office were ordinary residents – fed up with growth without adequate infrastructure, not “environmentalists”…(where do you get this stuff from?)

    on one hand you claim the enviro-whackos are a small group of idiots.. then you turn around and argue that these are the same folks responsible for voting people out of office.

    which is it?

    The same new folks moving in who do not pay for roads would also NOT pay for water/sewer if the county did not insist and allowed developers to sell lots without charging for it.

    and that is the difference.

    Developers and their customers have no choice about water/sewer. If you want to sell homes or buy one – then you must pay extra for the water and sewer – and rightly so.

    If folks did not pay for water/sewer, the same thing would happen to water/sewer that has happened to roads.

    and the day is now here when we recognize this.

    From now on – when a new development is proposed – the question that is going to be asked is “where will the new roads come from to handled the increased traffic”?

    and if the developers don’t have the correct answer – then their “proposed” developments will remain “proposed”.

    People have finally caught on to the scam of land speculation without adequate facilities.

    So the developers can pass anti-proffer, anti-impact-fee legislation if they want but localities are going to say “no” if they do.

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The folks in Loudoun who make the high salaries would be better off no matter where they lived.”

    That’s besides the point. All I said was that since Loudoun became more developed people there ON AVERAGE earn more money. There is nothng in that about causality, necesarily, but it seems fair to assume that where there is more money, and more wealth, it is easier to earn more money. My plumber in Alexandria charges me twice as much as my plumber in Fauquier – for the same job.

    When the average per capita income and the average assessed value is that much higher, then where is the evidence that people are worse off?

    Remember, we are comparing two counties, adjacent to each other, that were very similar not that long ago.

    Are they paying higher taxes, yeah, so what? They still have more stuff left over after taxes.

    But, as I said, that is only if you count monetary values alone.

    RH

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Those houses could have been (and are) in a lot of other places.”

    OK, so what’s wrong with this one. Why should it be any different if those same houses are OK someplace else?

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “They don’t “benefit” from the increased value – they created the demand for it…”

    How do you figure they don’t benefit from the value? They own it don’t they?

    RH

  39. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “People have finally caught on to the scam of land speculation without adequate facilities.”.

    …scam of land speculation without adequate facilities…

    Definitely.

    People have finally caught on…

    Maybe.

  40. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Many people in Loudoun used to have bumper stickers that read:

    “Don’t Fairfax Loudoun”.

    You don’t see them much anymore.

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The real enviro-whackos are criminals.

    Then you have a core dedicated group that mean well, and who have achieved great things but who are sometimes seriously misguided.

    After that, you have everyone who rides on the good work the core group did, and misapply anything with a green label on it for their own selfish interests.

    You have a small county, it doesn’t take long for a relatively small number to move in and take over politically, and then try to pprevent anyone else from having the rights and benefits they had.

    This group can be large enough to control the county, and still be a lot smaller than the group they are excluding. The political power is assymetric: the people in power control a lot of people who are outside their jurisdictional boundaries.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “if the developers don’t have the correct answer – then their “proposed” developments will remain “proposed”.”

    And probably, rightly so.

    The problem is tht in doing so the developers have done only half the job.

    They have refused to give the developers something for nothing. That’s OK.

    In doing so, they have given people who already developed something for nothing, and that is not OK.

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The folks who voted the BOS out of office were ordinary residents – “

    Many of whome recently moved to Loudoun County, and now want to slam the door behind them. I’ve got neighbors, just like them. They are good people, but they don’t mind looking out for their interests, at someone elses expense.

    RH

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “…scam of land speculation without adequate facilities…”

    That is OK. But it is equally a scam to make that argument knowing that you have no intention of providing the facilities. I’ve even seen projects turned down when the facilities would be provided, just because that type of facility is not allowed.

    Fauquier had service districts included in the comp plan, as a means of getting widespread downzoning approved. They were a bone tossed to the dogs along with some other goodies.

    But, there was never any intention of atually proficing services to the service districts, and they have used every means to prevent it. Then they eliminated som of the service districts, along with the reducing the previously promised by-rights.

    It was a dishonest scam from the get-go.

    RH

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Re- bumper stickers.

    I used to laugh when I saw Fauuier cars with No WalMart stickers on them – at the Walmart in Manassas.

    If you went to the public meetings the sentiment was 100% against WalMart. It’s going to cause too much traffic. It will kill our local businesses. If it causes more traffic, isn’t that usually good for business? Or did they mean the same traffic would move someplace else?

    Anyway, the Walmart is open now, and plenty of people seem to use it. If the vocalists at teh hearings were right, and we really didn’t want it, then wouldn’t it be empty?

    Why should I think the situation now in control of Loudoun is any different?

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Let’s watch Loudoun turn off the tap, and see how long it takes for the pressure to build up.

    RH

  47. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The other bumper sticker I see frequently is the one that says “Poverty is Owning a Horse”.

    That might not be true when fuel prices get high enough.

    Then there’s the bumper sticker that says “Drive Less”. I think that’s a riot.

    RH

  48. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Speaking of sub-prime loans, that turkey finally came home to roost for me.

    My tenant was able to buy a foreclosed home, and now she is moving out, and up.

    Congratulations, Virginia, best of luck to you.

    The flip side is that rents have gone up, because more people can’t afford to own.

    RH

  49. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I don’t understand the angst against speculators.

    I’m an Oil speculator. I just bought a $1000 worth of diesel fuel. I’m speculating the hay it makes will be worth more than the fuel.

    RH

  50. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    no… the airlines don’t buy contracts for fuel on “speculation”.

    The guy who buys and sells oil futures with no intention of useing the oil is a speculator.

    same with land and development..except we call it “flipping” properties…and land…

    speculating in land development is a losing proposition if the BOS requires adequate facilities as part of the proffers…

    everytime a developer gets a “sweet deal”… the public becomes more demanding such that at some point, even pretty good proposals go down – as a result of earlier abuses aka “sweet deals”.

    The best part of VDOT going broke and divesting themselves of local roads is that the pro-growth developer/bos types will no longer be able to lie to citizens about new development and VDOT taking care of the new roads that will be needed.

    It’s going to be a much rougher hoe to row for developers in Virginia.. by the time the housing “hiccup” recovers…

    and reading the posters in this blog from NoVa to HR/TW .. there is DEEP suspicion of ANY transportation funding and planning…

    makes me wonder if this is fairly widespread.. perhaps the reason why the statewide referenda went down in 2002….

    and .. I bet.. has got the guys in Richmond .. wondering if the solution to the courts turning down the TAs might be … referenda this time around…

    NOT!

    the GIG is up with developers involvement in transportation planning .. in Virginia.. the public has finally caught on…

  51. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The guy who buys and sells oil futures with no intention of useing the oil is a speculator.

    Yes that’s true. So what? He has to “settle” his contract at the end of every day, based on the actual prices recieved by those that did deliver. He provides a valuable service to the guy who does deleiver, because he provides liquidity. he takes enormous upside and downside risk, so that the producer won’ have to.

    The producer can come to the market and sell his fall corn or pork bellys, for a price he cn stand, and gt his money today – even if he has not planted the corn yet. he probably needs the money in order to plant the corn. now, THERE is a risky speculation.

    RH

    Speculator does not equal bad guy.

  52. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the public has finally caught on…”

    When they wake up from this dreamworld and discover every home requires a Jumbo loan, even for that home you wanted to help Junior with, to get him out of your house…

    When you fully expect the mortgage to be inherited alng with the house, by your grandchildren….

    Then the public will wake up, too.

    RH

  53. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I know this comes as a shock to you but no one is entitled to a home they can pay for in 30 years.

    I know. Sad but true.

    What you are entitled to is the right to buy a home – within the constraints of your own financial ability.

    There is no “everyone is entitled to a home that they can pass on to their kids”.

    this is more of the same.. tax the bejesus out of everyone – so that everyone can then own their own home…

    that way.. there is no personal responsibility in working to achieve your own home – because you are “entitled” to it.

    THAT’s WHERE the sub-prime loans came from.

    and those guys were right.. because in the end.. the rest of us will pay for those folks who believed that they were “entitled” to a home.

Leave a Reply

Read More