A Rebirth of Passenger Rail?

Color me skeptical — but intrigued. Harvard professor John Stilgoe advances the argument that trains are back… if not quite yet, then in the near future. In “Train Time: Railroads and the Imminent Reshaping of the United States, he argues that “an economic and cultural tsunami is about to transform the United States. … Return [of the train] will alter everyday life more dramatically than the arrival of personal computers, Internet connections, or cell phones.”

According to David Warsh’s review in the Providence Journal, half-forgotten cities that lie along the nation’s obscure operating railroad routes — Lynchburg, Va., for example — will be transformed, he says. So will be regions that now lie far from any currently useable track — National Parks, ski facilities, Lake Tahoe, Moosehead Lake.

Rising fuel costs and mounting highway congestion will drive the shift back to passenger trains, Stilgoe argues. Key to the transformation will be a shift from diesel power to electrification on railroad lines, which enables passenger trains to accelerate and brake much more quickly. Electric locomotives also require less maintenance and pollute less.

Savvy corporate managers, long-term investors, real-estate developers and speculators are already laying the groundwork for change. One bell-weather: the Grand Trunk Line spur in Cambridge, Mass. According to Warsh:

Already the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has arranged the buildings it has recently constructed above the Grand Trunk siding to allow a double track to be installed — the fundamental improvement required to allow for passenger travel. Such “architectural evidence of assumed future change” is everywhere to be found among the railroads, says Stilgoe.

Sounds exciting. But it will take more than high oil prices and traffic congestion to spur the rebirth of passenger rail in the United States. It will require, at a minimum, a willingness to permit more density around train stations — something that only a few municipalities are willing to allow. At a deeper level of analysis, it will require planning at a regional level to balance land use with transportation capacity — something we don’t see anywhere. But if enough people think they can make enough money by redeveloping the land around train stations, governance practitioners eventually may see the light as well.

In the meantime, I hope Stilgoe is right about Lynchburg. I would love to see that lovely old town regain its lost lustre.

(Hat tip to Jim Wamsley.)


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Comments

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    What level of taxpayer subsidies would be necessary to build and operate rail?

    Don’t get me wrong, I love trains and would rather take rail to New York or Philadelphia than any other transportation mode. But we have limited tax resources, can we afford to put them into rail?

    TMT

  2. Accurate Avatar
    Accurate

    “Electric locomotives also require less maintenance and pollute less.”

    We have to get the electricity from somewhere (and solar and wind won’t even come close). Unless we go nuclear, the pollution to produce the electricity is nothing to sneeze at. I love how so many folks think electric this and electric that are the answer, yet fail to think of where the electricity is coming from. Let alone the fact that we already suffer brown-outs at certain times because we can’t always produce enough electricity. Sorry, electricity comes with it’s own set of problems.

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “architectural evidence of assumed future change”

    There is a big difference between assuming future change and not designing to preclude it.

    WCOG and Victoria Transportation Policy Institute think it is possible to increase transit use by 10 to 20% with sufficient support and incentives, including no further expansion of highways.

    But that’s talking mainly about commuter transit, which is a lot different than long distance passenger rail.

    I’m not sure there is any benefit in postulating that an increase in density around long distance rail stations would improve the economics. It is an entirely different business than commuter rail.

    In Europe about 38% of rail income is from subsidies. If you believe that European densities and distances are more conducive to train travel, then you would have to believe that train travel here will require higher subsidies.

    Accurate is correct: electric trains pollute less locally. High capacity electric plants are still more efficient than diesel prime movers, but then you have the losses associated with moving the electricity, and those plants are still mostly fired by coal. Net net, the pollution answer isn;t clear.

    RH

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the long-distance trains — 17 famous “limiteds” or sleepovers that train enthusiasts wax nostalgic about — are money losers. The Cardinal route between Chicago and Washington, D.C., for instance, incurs $3.29 of cost for every dollar of earned revenue.

    High-speed rail is a key to increasing ridership. Presently, the Acela route between Boston and Washington, D.C., is the only high-speed system in the nation. The train can reach a top speed of 150 mph, yet because of infrastructure that in some places is over 100 years old, it rarely runs that fast. The tunnels into Baltimore from the south, for instance, were dug in 1877. As a result, Acela only cuts the regular rail travel time between Washington and New York by about 15 minutes. To get the maximum performance out of Acela, the Northeast Corridor needs $20 billion in improvements over the next 25 years. The 15 miles of tunnels into Penn Station in New York alone need $900 million to meet modern safety requirements, according to the inspector general of the U.S. Department of Transpor-tation.”

    Prof. Paul Weinstein, Jr. , 2001

    RH

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Amtrak’s federal funding has remained virtually flat; its annual subsidy was $1.3 billion last year compared with federal funding of about $34 billion for highways and more than $14 billion for air travel. Even mass transit, primarily aimed at helping people get around within cities, drew about $8 billion in federal money.”

    Columbus Ohio Dispatch, 2007

    Anyone want to work out how much each of those is, per passenger mile?

    RH

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    One can only hope, but as bloggers ppoint out, the funding isn’t there. Maybe it will be if gas prices triple.

    Peter Galuszka

  7. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Just to counter the filibustering flat-earth crowd:

    There is is nice (but cleche — damn comment posting software without spell check! — filled) op ed in the current issue of METRO by Cliff Henke “Megatrends Shaping Politics, Industry” (METRO is a shared-vehicle industry publication.)

    He notes where the electricity will come from – more effecient Mobility and Access and we would add Massive Conservation and Fundamental Change in human settlement patterns.

    EMR

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Look, Ed, there is little doubt that electric trains are a little cleaner. There is no little doubt that if more funding is made available, and more trains are available, that more people won’t use them.

    But, they are not pollution free. They don’t have anywhere near the efficiency that are sometimes claimed. And even Europe only carries a fraction of its total passenger miles by rail.

    There is a big difference between being a filibustering flat earther and being a wild ewed optimist.

    Somewhere in the middle are the realists. We subsidize all forms of transportation. It would be nice if we had some way to decide how much to spend on which, but making false claims for massive environmental benefits and changes in civization doesn’t help.

    We can make X incremental change for Y cost. Let’s figure out what X and Y are.

    RH

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The arguments about fuel costs, pollution, and congestion are nice, but they don’t hit on the main reason that revitilization of trains is happening and that is rapidly increasing travel speeds.

    The interstate system is currently limited to about 60-70mph in an uncongested situation. When it first came online it replaced an inadequate US highway system and essentially raised the productivity or workers and freight by increasing average speeds. Unfortunately there is no possible way to increase those average speeds anymore without compromising safety or building enormously complicated auto-driving systems. All investments in highways now are for the purpose of maintaining current speeds not increasing them, therefore no productivity gains.

    Airports are largely tapped out in terms of available flight space in major markets. Add in the increases in processing time (security, check-in, etc.) before a flight and again you have negative productivity in the sector. There are potentials for higher speed planes, but they aren’t cost effective and on shorter flights such as along the coasts they don’t shorten the overall travel time much.

    This leaves the rail industry to fill in the gaps. Currently there are cost effective trains travelling over 200mph and close to 300mph. This is where the next generation of productivity gains will come from. It won’t be cross country, but it could definitely be effective in regions and perhaps even at the commuter rail level.

    The NE corridor is already seeing large growth in passenger traffic due to competing modes losses in productivity. In the Paris-London corridor, the Eurostar is now accounting for 2/3 of passenger traffic.

    ZS

  10. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    ZS:

    Great points all.

    Think how much energy would be saved (and speed increased) by having most trips under over 1/4 mile and under 1000 miles shared-vehicle systems.

    Physics and economics will dictate that many or most would be on rail.

    A few short haul aircraft, more effecient long haul aircraft, real interRegional rail and more effecient Autonomobiles — ALL priced to refelct the true cost would fill out the picture.

    To get a grasp of this reality for yourself, try this:

    Mark up a map with the 68 largest MSAs in the US of A. Now adjust the borders to approximate the size of the 40 or so NURs which now exist.

    Note how few are not coterminus — it looks like all but 10 on our map.

    Energy savings from more functional human settlement patterns served by more effecient shared-vehicle systems would pay for the upgrade of the rail systems.

    The most effecient investment in energy security is investment in energy savings, not new production.

    Think Fundamental Change.

    EMR

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Amtrak has redefined high speed service to mean 95 mph, whereas that is normal service in Europe wgere high speed service is 135 mph.

    At present, the high speed Acela trians save ony 30 minutes over normal trains going to New York. so where, exactly, are those rapidly increasing travel speeds?

    Acela trains are slowed partly because of tunnels in Baltimore that date to the 1800’s.

    Going to Boston, you can save about an hour – if you are willing to spend 9 hours on the train, but you can generally fly for less money and get there sooner.

    It is going to cost over $80 billion to get the present Amtrak routes rebuilt to manage high speed trains. It is going to be a very long time before we see 200 mph trains here, let alone 300 mph trains. Such trains require dedicated and secure guideways, and no grade crossings.

    True, airplanes and airports have their problems, but when your plane arrrive at its desination it touches down at 110 mph. The train to Philadelphia slows down from its maximum speed long before it arrives downtown. This is pigs and chickens excahnge, but the point is that each mode has advantages, disadvantages, and costs.

    As ZS points out, highways were an enormous advance when they came on line, but that advantage is unlikely to increase.

    Trains can potentially get to very high speeds, but, we are first going to have to sign up for huge infrastructure costs, and back that up with huge subsidies. Trains can potentially achieve very low costs per passenger mile -in operating costs. But, the capital cost to get there is going to be very high, and in point of fact, trains seldom if ever reach the efficiencies claimed.

    The distance from Paris to London is a little over 200 miles and an economy ticket is $214. It is 205 miles to Yew York and a coach ticket (not Acela) is $98. If you think the service is comarable, an Acela ticket is $188.
    It is easy to imagine that the difference in cost for international service, not to mention the cost of the chunnel would make the European service cost a little more. An immmediate to New York is $159 and takes a little over an hour gate to gate, but the comparable flight London to Paris is $325.

    On that basis, it’s not hard to see why the London to Paris rail trip gets a high percentage of the passengers for that route.

    But, that’s a 200 mile trip. Once you look at longer trips the economics are much different.

    RH

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Think how much energy would be saved (and speed increased) by having most trips under over 1/4 mile and under 1000 miles shared-vehicle systems.”

    You are dreaming again. If you just said over 50 miles and under 350, then I’d agree. But making ridiculous claims spoils your argument.

    RH

  13. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Unlike Europe, in this country, we have a close nexus – at least conceptually between driving an auto and paying for the road infrastructure through the fuel tax. i.e. roads are considered by many NOT subsidized whereas virtually everyone believes that transit/rail cannot operate without “massive” subsidies.

    So no matter what the discussion is with respect to rail – it always comes back to how it can be paid for if not from user fees (fare box).

    Nevermind.. that the roads don’t really get fully paid for by user fees either.

    For instance, Wash Metro Security is part of the operational costs but State Troopers on highways are not paid from fuel taxes.

    Ironically, TOLL roads DO have this cost incorporated into their fees.

    But people THINK that roads are paid for by the fuel tax to the point where they get upset about putting tolls on roads – the often-heard refrain is that “roads are already paid for” – obviously unaware that 40% of the 4 Billion dollar VDOT budget is for maintenance alone.

    Nor are most folks aware that out of VDOT’s 4 Billion dollar budget that 400 million comes from the sales tax.

    Imagine what that 1/2% sales tax would do for rail.

    What makes that 1/2% owed to roads in the first place rather than rail?

    I wonder if it was put to a referenda is Virginia would support 1/2% sales tax for rail and let VDOT set up tolls for roads if that would even up the playing field.

    🙂

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “roads are considered by many NOT subsidized “

    I don’t think that is a true statement. I think most people recognize that roads are subsidised. We may disagree on how much and what should be counted. Most people know that sales and general revenue funds are used for roads. And most people remember that the road funds have been raided for general revenue purposes.

    I don’t see what that adds to the discussion.

    “Amtrak’s federal funding has remained virtually flat; its annual subsidy was $1.3 billion last year compared with federal funding of about $34 billion for highways and more than $14 billion for air travel. Even mass transit, primarily aimed at helping people get around within cities, drew about $8 billion in federal money.”

    These numbers are probably about right. Now, what we don’t know is what “funding” consists of. Does it include fares, gas taxes and user fees, or not? Without knowing that, we can’t say how much is “subsidy” and how much is user paid.

    We don’t know how much gas tax got siphonded off for other projects, either. We don’t know how much gas tax got used for transit or how much got spent on the Replica of Godspeed.

    All we know is the total numbers and the number of miles traveled. Regardless of who paid how much for what, user pays and all that crap, did we (collectively) get our (collective) moneys worth? Could we have spent it better?

    The example of Metro transit and state trooper cost is a good one as far as it goes, but then, state troopers do a lot more than just road security, so you wouldn’t throw the entire State police bill at highways. The whole point is to have these discussions and then come to some agreement as to how much we can accept. What are the costs, and what are we getting/not getting.

    THEN we can figure out who is paying for what. But it is a minor, minor, minor issue, compared to ae we doing the right things with the money we spend.

    But as long as this continues, one side against the the other, based on ideology, we can never reach the kind of assessment that lets us see daylight. We re too busy trying to pull the subsidy wool over each others eyes.

    For now, lets forget it. Forget where it came fror. We got 1.3 billion for AmTrak and 34 billion for roads.

    Is that a reasonable split, or not? How would you decide? Number of trips? Number of passenger miles? Passenger miles plus personal freight carried?

    If you suddenly had a big pot of money to throw at the problem, where would you get the most bang for your buck? How would you decide? How would you know? What would you do if you find out you were wrong?

    RH

  15. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “Roads are subsidized”.

    I read that all the time on this site. So, a couple of questions:

    1. Is the Army subsidized?
    2. Is the FBI subsidized?
    3. Is the Department of Agriculture subsidized?
    4. Fairfax County Police?

    Isn’t everything provided by the government (or nearly everything) subsidized?

    I am fine with tolls as long as everybody who drives pays them. Either that or eliminate the gas tax in places where tolls are charged and pay for all road work in that area with the tolls. However, when you only have tolls in places where the government has incompetently failed to provide an adequate road structure – you are still subsidizing those who live in places without the tolls. No?

    On the railrioads – another claim of subsidy. Wasn’t the “Main Line” in Philadelphia named after the main line of the trains that ran through the towns? Were they subsidized all those years?

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Imagine what that 1/2% sales tax would do for rail.”

    Imagine is about all we can do, because we don’t know what it would do for rail.

    Would we use that money to directly subsidize riders, to buy down the price of their ticket? Or would we use it for capital improvements, and hope teh ticket money comes later?

    The right thing to do is to look at it the other way. If I spend a billion on roads, how much does my sales tax receiots go up? If I spend a billion on roads, how much do my sales tax receipts go up?

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Sorry,

    Should be spend a billion on roads and watch the tax receipts, spend a billion on railroads and watch the tax receipts.

    Groveton is right.

    If I pay gas tax and use the roads that’s OK – not a subsidy, because the user pays.

    If I pay sales tax which goes to roads, and I use the roads, then why is THAT a subsidy I’m still paying the money and still using the roads. It is still user pays.

    Who is getting screwed here? Somebody who buys a LOT of stuff, pays tons of sales tax, and then carries the stuff home on foot?

    RH

  18. John Athayde Avatar
    John Athayde

    But isn’t this more than just Amtrak? What kind of cost benefit is there to more freight travelling via rail? How does CSX make out in all this? Their stock seems to be doing okay. What kind of benefits come from high speed freight? is it possible?

    Roads aren’t just driven by commuters in SUVs driving 2 hours each way to and from work, and in the same manner, Amtrak is not the only thing riding the rails.

    Just some questions to expand the scope.

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I don’t think you are going to have 250 mph trains riding the same rails as freight.

    If you think you are going to move a lot of passengers, even low speed, reasonably frequent, regional service trains are going to interfere with (more profitable) freight.

    Right now, Amtrak (and VRE) coexists with freight. That is part of the problem. As I understand it, the MARK trains over in Maryland are almost never on time.

    To get the kind of service EMR envisions, we need a whole new parallel passenger system. And that’s just for starters. Then you have to build the kind of settlements and society that can use them effectively.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “To get the kind of service EMR envisions, we need a whole new parallel passenger system.”

    That’s correct.

    and that’s the problem because we do not have a sustainable source of funding to do it.

    and that’s one reason why I was flinging the subsidy word around.

    Groveton asked – what is a subsidy?

    Indeed, in Europe and Japan, they don’t view the money spent on HIGH SPEED rail as a “subsidy” but rather an investment that serves the mobility needs of their people and is considered an integral part of their economy – allowing people to live

    .. now get this EMR –

    NOT where they work.

    When we talk about having high-speed rail between Washington and Richmond -and Richmond and Hampton Roads or Charlottesville, are we thinking.. that it will allow folks to actually live FURTHER from work?

    but …. do we say “subsidy” or “investment”?

    RH claims that money is taken from the fuel taxes for roads but he also admits that we use sales taxes and general revenues (income taxes) to pay for roads also.

    do we say “subsidize” or “invest”?

    now if folks REALLY like perversity – there are folks in the transportation world who believe that congestion pricing tolls can and should be used for transit and rail….

    you can verify this easily…

    the 2% gas tax levied by jurisdictions that have VRE – part of that tax on fuel goes to … VRE

    The planned HOT lanes on 495/95 – both have in the plan.. substantial money to be transferred to WMATA and VRE.

    if roads are paid for with sales taxes and income taxes then is it wrong to get some of it back from toll proceeds from roads for transit/rail?

  21. Michael Ryan Avatar
    Michael Ryan

    Wow! I am so excited! With 200 mph transport, and already having established a willingness to travel one to two hours each day to work, we can imagine the day when NC, WV, PA, and even eastern OH all become part of one sprawling suburb surrounding Washington, DC. We can subdivide the entire freakin’ northeast into 10 acres lots. In fact, most everything east of the Mississippi would become a suburb. You’d just never be sure “a suburb of where?”

  22. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    yeah.. it kinda blows the whole idea of NURs to smithereens…

    Folks will be able to live in a Ski Chalet in the Mountains and work in downtown DC.

    AND we power all those high speed scutters with nukes or coal plants….

    Talk about your location variable issues…

    EMR might have to update his powerpoints…

    🙂

  23. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    oops… looks like Fundamental Change might be happening….

    “The buzz in the energy world is that American motorists do finally seem to be responding to high prices and driving less, as reported in the Wall Street Journal.

    Carbon Tax says the new statistics are “a powerful rebuttal of the notion that gasoline use is inelastic.” And the Truth about Cars cites “a shift in both perception and reality” among drivers. Blogging Stocks says “the highly improbable may be happening.”

    JPMorgan’s Global Energy Strategy report notes that the latest figures are the result of the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s making a sizable downward revision in its earliest estimates for December 2007 oil demand. Total demand fell 0.4 percent from December 2006 levels, when it earlier had looked as if there had been 2.1 percent year-over-year growth. “On a detrended, deseasonalized basis demand for [gasoline] has not shown consistent above-trend growth since early 2005,” JPMorgan notes.

    But the chilling news, for both motorists and the U.S. economy, is that both crude oil and gasoline prices are rising anyway.”

    http://tinyurl.com/2n5wh8

    and of course.. this means even less gas tax revenue also…

    yikes… home prices are tanking.. gasoline is headed towards $4 a gallon.. and now.. HOT Lanes…

    what next?

  24. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Speaking of passenger rail and subsidies –

    “In the long run all costs are variable”.

    “In the long run we’re all dead”.

    I think this was an exchange between Galbraith and Keynes but I could be wrong.

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Consider a raod that is heavily traveled like 66 or 395. Tens of thousands of vehicles use those roads, yet we claim they are still subsidised, maybe by the sales tax. Who pays the most sales tax, those users going to their high end jobs in Arlington, the district, and Fairfax, or the aerage Joe in ROVA earing the average $33k?

    Are those heavily traveled roads STILL subsidised?

    If so, what does that say about the rest of the roads like 729 where you are as lkely to encounter a cow as another car?

    It seems there is a huge disconnect between paying for the road by the amount you use it, and paying for the amount of road that is available to use.

    This is EMR’s argument about locational costs. But arguing that you should pay for the roads around where you live is as screwed up as arguing that you should pay for all roads based on the amount you drive.

    Larry asks if roads are paid for with sales taxes and income taxes then is it wrong to get some of it back from toll proceeds from roads for transit/rail?

    Well, because the roads are paid for with sales taxes and income taxes, and gas taxes. If the roads are already paid for this way, why would you charge for them again through tolls, so you can pay for other transit?

    Also, because the tolls will be charged only on those busy roads that come closest to paying for themselves. How, then, will all the other roads that come no where near funding themselves be supported?

    RH claims that money is taken from the fuel taxes for roads but he also admits that we use sales taxes and general revenues (income taxes) to pay for roads also. And also that the transportation fund has been raided for non transportation needs. Let’s not forget that.

    What we need to do is figure out how much transit and rail we actually need, how much roadway we actually need, and figure out a way to fund them both. We cannot make Euro style “investments” at the same time we are screaming “user pays” and “no new taxes”.

    Yep, at $6 a gallon, tolls on HOT lanes may be moot. And if you think there is a revenue squeeze now, wait till that happens.

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Carbon Tax says the new statistics are “a powerful rebuttal of the notion that gasoline use is inelastic.”

    I don’t know anyone who has that notion. But, if you go look at Gapminder you can easily see that energy use is nearly exactly as elastic as the ability to earn GNP.

    We can definitely restrict our use of gasoline, but we are going to do without many of the things we buy with gasoline as a result.

    RH

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The planned HOT lanes on 495/95 – both have in the plan.. substantial money to be transferred to WMATA and VRE.

    Which isn’t going to happen if people drive less on account of either high fuel costs, hot lane tolls, or the (whoa) actual availability of transit.

    In that case transit will either pay its own way, or be subsidised out of sales and income taxes.

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    It’s $80 billion just to repair the northeast corridor. A real train system might cost thousands of billions.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    RH

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    does that mean that is what the Europeans and Japanese had to pay to get their systems upgraded for high speed rail?

    gazooks

  30. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”Which isn’t going to happen if people drive less on account of either high fuel costs, hot lane tolls,”

    yup.. we know…for sure.. whenever they put tolls on roads.. that they totally are abandoned .. with toll collectors standing around with their hands in their pockets wondering when the next car will show up…

    yup.. we all know.. that if we put HOT lane tolls on road in the Washington Metro area that no one will use them.. and folks will quit their jobs and refuse to commute any more.

    It’s clear. When we put tolls on roads.. the trend towards total traffic annihilation followed closely by total collapse of GNP will occur… only a matter of time…

    Somebody oughta warn the Garden State Parkway and New Jersey Turnpike folks before it is too late.

  31. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Anon 11:40 –

    Exactly.

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    …”Which isn’t going to happen if people drive less on account of either high fuel costs, hot lane tolls,”

    Poke fun if you want, but one main idea of increasing transit is to reduce the use of automobiles. If funding transit depends on auto tolls, then transit proponenets put themselves in a funny position: the more they win the more they lose.

    On the other hnad, total demand fell 0.4 percent from December 2006 levels, so again, the more they win the more they lose.

    NJT may be one of the last to see the effect, but there is going to be a limit to how much NJ can solve its fiscal problems by raising the cost of transportation.

    RH

  33. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    At 9:16 PM, Michael Ryan said…
    Wow! I am so excited! With 200 mph transport, and already having established a willingness to travel one to two hours each day to work, we can imagine the day when NC, WV, PA, and even eastern OH all become part of one sprawling suburb surrounding Washington, DC. We can subdivide the entire freakin’ northeast into 10 acres lots. In fact, most everything east of the Mississippi would become a suburb. You’d just never be sure “a suburb of where?”

    Michael:

    You hit the nail on the head and demonstrate why comments from 12 1/2 Percenters, land speculators and shills of Business As Usual confound thoughtful consideration of settlement pattern / Movility and Access issues.

    It also demonstrates why we need to talk about “shared-vehicle systems” not “rail” or “mass transit.”

    One or more systems would work inside the Clear Edge around the Core of the New Urban Region for travel of 1/4 to 20 miles, a different sort of system would work best outside the Core serving urban agglomerations in the Coutryside for trips of 2 to 100 miles and yet another system for fast, interRegional trips of from 20 to 1,000 miles.

    Three or more overlapping systems, not one system.

    EMR

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I’m a railfan. I’ve ridden the TGV-Eurostar from Paris to London. With very few possible exceptions, however, I don’t think any sort of intraurban or interurban passenger rail makes much sense in the US. The infrastructure costs are enormous and there needs to be a high load factor for the system to be efficient economically or environmentally. Ideally, I’d say the goal would be to improve rails enough to attract most freight going more than 100 or 200 miles and encourage shared vehicles of all different sorts for passenger traffic.

    LB

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Three or more overlapping systems, not one system.”

    Plus the automobiles which are not going to get uninvented, and which probably represent the source of funds for the other three systems.

    So, let’s see. Under your plan, I would need to change vehicles four times to travel from downtown DC to downtown Richmond.

    And I get to pay for and support four or five modes instead of the two or three that I already can’t afford.

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “does that mean that is what the Europeans and Japanese had to pay to get their systems upgraded for high speed rail?

    gazooks”

    They paid a bundle, but they had a nice new system to start with – after we bombed it out of existence during the war.

    If you want to get ahead, just pick a fight with America, and then lose.

    ————————–

    I’m a train fan too, but I think LB is right. It doesn’t make sense here. Maybe someday, but not yet.

    If you want a really cheap ride to NY, try the chinese bus.

    RH

  37. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Railteam is an alliance of seven European high-speed rail operators. The aim of the group is to offer integrated high-speed rail travel between major European cities and to compete with airlines on punctuality, environment, pricing and speed. Coordinated departures are intended to give consistent travel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railteam

    the obvious question is how come it makes sense in Europe but not here?

    If you want to go from DC to Raleigh or Roanoke to Charlotte .. do you take air, rail or car and why?

    If Roanoke, Charlotte, DC and Raleigh were in Europe – would the answers be the same?

    why? why not?

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I think that integrated in that venue means something different than you may think.

    European trains run on a number of dfferent track, electricity, communications, and sensor standards. There is a lack of interoperabilility across borders. One reason rail servic has suffered is that rail service was organized nationally while business increasingly became transnational.

    As to why it makes sense in Europe and not here, well, it doesn’t make sense in Europe either, but they do it anyway. They spend 30 billion per year on 200,000 km of track. 78.8% of passenger traffic in Europe, travels on roads.

    “For the last 30 years, in the presence of steady passenger and freight transport growth of 2.5-3% annually in Europe, EU railway transport has been in steep decline. It is estimated that during the period 1990-2001, measured in tonnes/kilometres, freight transport in general rose by 25%, and road transport increased by 35% while rail freight transport decreased by 6%. During the period 1970-2001, rail’s market share collapsed from 21% to 7.8%.

    The UK experience shows that substituting a public natural monopoly with a private one does not improve the system.”

    As for the US, the Railway Administration has said that:

    “We recognize that some amount of operating assistance will be required for almost all of these routes and services for the foreseeable future. We propose that such subsidies should be the responsibility of the State or States that believe these services are important enough to warrant their financial support.”

    In other words, if you want it plan on paying for it yourself.

  39. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “In other words, if you want it plan on paying for it yourself.”

    umm… is that a bad thing?

    we could take that phrase and use it on folks who are driving on congested roads every day…

    …or hey.. how about this… we could use that phrase on localities and regions who say they have major transportation infrastructure needs.

    it still comes back to whether any infrastructure or service that is not totally paid for by direct user fees is a subsidy or an “investment”.

    So we “invest” in education and prisons but we “subsidize” transit and rail.

    Not sure I’ve ever heard it put that we “subsidize” each child or prison by some.. really horrendous amount… kids at 10K per year and inmates at 20K or so per year.

    just think now much better our economy would be if we squeezed out ALL of these subsidies.

  40. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “we could take that phrase and use it on folks who are driving on congested roads every day…”

    Yes, Larry, and the fact that the roads are congested shows that is what people want. On the other hand, you practically have to pay people to get them to ride the trains. One analyst has actually suggested that the optimum price point for metro would be to make the fares free.

    Whether most people believe it or not, auto users pay far more of their total cost of use than most other travelers. they are in fact paying for (most) of what they obviously want.

    But, if you applied the same level of costs incurred by the riders, well, you basically wouldn’t have any trains.

    Anyway, the quote wasn’t referring to individuals paying their full costs. It was referring to the states providing the subsidies rather than the feds.

    “We recognize that some amount of operating assistance will be required for almost all of these routes and services for the foreseeable future.” This means that it is assumed that “user pays” means “no service”.

    Is that a bad thing?

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    A major airline is under fire from environmentalists for flying an aircraft across the Atlantic with only five passengers on board. The flight from Chicago to London meant that the plane, a Boeing 777, used 22,000 gallons of fuel.

    Richard Dyer, Friends of the Earth’s transport campaigner said: “Flying virtually empty planes is an obscene waste of fuel. Through no fault of their own , each passenger’s carbon footprint for this flight is about 45 times what it would have been if the plane had been full.”

    “With such a small passenger load we did consider whether we could cancel the flight and re-accommodate the five remaining passengers on other flights.

    “However, this would have left a plane load of west-bound passengers stranded in London Heathrow who were due to fly back to the US on the same aircraft.

    So there, in a nutshell, is the problem with shared vehicle systems. With private vehicles you have to arrange and pay for parking (which is itself usually a SHARED facility). With shared vehicles you have to arrange and pay to keep them in motion – even if they are empty.

    So what do you do, sit in chicago with an empty plane and give up on carrying passngers the other direction?

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I have been a supporter of passenger rail, but yesterday made me wonder.
    My work involved several meetings in Washington yesterday. Rather than braving the traffic as I usual do, I took a businessman’s advice and showed up at 7:45 a.m. for the 8 a.m. Amtrak. We started out just great but slipped to a crawl until Fredericksburg. It continued until Alexandria when a conductor announced we had been caught behind a slow freight. We arrived 30 minutes late — not to worry, though, since my first appointments were a short walk from Union Station on Capitol Hill.
    I arrived back in plenty of time for the 5:50 p.m. We waited unitl they posted the “Delayed” sign. Suffice it to say that, with the delay and the drive to Chesterfield from Staples Mill Road, I got home totally exhausted at 9:30 p.m.
    A car might have been petter.

    Peter Galuszka

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I love how some people ramble on about transportation “options”.

    Once you commit to public transit, you are stuck.

    Had you taken the car, you could have pulled in to a motel when you were exhausted.

    Or stopped at your cousin’s house.

    Etc. Etc.

    The car has problems which we can fix. But, despite it’s problems it is still the best option, and it isn’t going to be disinvented.

    The best thing that environmentalists can do is stop trying to defeat it, and try to make it work better.

    Trying to defeat it is a waste of resources.

    RH

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