Bacon's Rebellion

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Racial Disparities in SOL Pass Rates Getting Worse

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by

James A. Bacon
in ,

Bacon’s Rebellionmath_data

More SOL data from Lynchburg numbers cruncher Jim Weigand… The chart above expresses the Standards of Learning (SOL) pass rate for blacks and Hispanics as a percentage of the pass rate for whites between 2005 and 2014. The good news is that blacks and Hispanics consistently improved their educational performance through 2010, with Hispanics passing at 90% of the rate as whites in that year.

Then something happened. Minority SOL pass rates tanked. White pass rates declined (a trend not reflected in these charts) but minority pass rates fell even steeper. What happened in that period? Weigand notes that downturn coincides with tighter standards for the math SOLs  in 2012 and for the English SOLs in 2013. The impact of more demanding math tests can be seen in this chart:

SOL_data

 

Virginia school systems have made tremendous efforts to help minority students reach educational parity with whites (and Asians, who out-perform whites). But these charts call into question the effectiveness of those efforts.

If the tests were harder, then why weren’t all groups effected equally? Why did black and Hispanic scores decline relative to white scores? One possible explanation is that minority students are enrolled disproportionately in classes that “teach to the test.” Teachers in these classes got better at instructing their students to answer the kinds of questions that appear in SOL tests. (An analogy: My son is taking an AP course that explicitly, no-bones-about-it, is geared to helping students answer the kinds of questions that appear in AP tests.) But teaching to the test has a big drawback. Make the test tougher, and it doesn’t work.

Just a theory. It doesn’t fit the data perfectly. Perhaps readers can help me refine the theory or present better ones of their own.

Update: At the suggestion of Don Rippert, Jim Wiegand portrayed the same data as the chart above in a different way. Here’s the raw data for each ethnic/racial group, not normalized to whites as above. This shows clearly that whites suffered a decline in SOL pass rates, too.

SOL_pass_rates

Update: These numbers may be skewed by changes in Department of Education questionnaires that allowed students to select more than one race, says Hamilton Lombard with the Tayloe Murphy Center for Public Policy. As a result, for instance, the number of students identifying only as black dropped by 20% to 30% in some divisions. “With the changes, the SOL results by race are really for different populations in 2010 and 2012,” he writes.

— JAB

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41 responses to “Racial Disparities in SOL Pass Rates Getting Worse”

  1. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    what you and Jim do not do which is a disservice in this discussion is talk about the differences in scores between schools in the same districts.

    why don’ you plot that?

    Neighborhood schools pretty much reflect the economic demographics of school districts except where the districts are small and have only one elementary, middle and high school.

    what you’re looking at in Lynchburg – would be much more definitive if you plotted those scores for each school in that district.

    to not do that – especially after you have been advised and shown that disparity over and over – why?

    It’s not like you don’t know. You have such disparities between schools in Henrico. .

    Not sure what it is about Conservatives these days when they select only the data they want to see and ignore the data they don’t like.

    how about it. How about plotting the neighborhood school scores for Lynchburg and Henrico?

  2. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
    NoVaShenandoah

    I believe that JAB’s suspicion is correct. also believe that a qualifier may be in order (that is, deserves investigation): as the tests were changed, the instruction to whites was adjusted more effectively than to Hispanics and blacks. I believe that almost all students attend classes that teach to the test, but some school systems are more adept at adjusting to the changes.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      there are two issues:

      1. – the kids in the lower-demographic schools do not have a culture of education as their parents don’t have very good educations and live in or near the poverty line.. often with the dad having run into the law selling street drugs to make a living.

      those kids are harder to teach than kids of college-educated parents.

      2. – teachers with seniority – do not want to teach in the lower demographic schools and use their seniority to not. That leaves the school system to staff those schools with the lesser experience, lesser capable – whose only option for a job might be at those lower end schools.

      If JIM and JIM ACTUALLY DID plot all the schools in a given district – you often see disparities in the scores – that cannot be explained as race …but rather the correlation between the economic status of a neighborhood relative to the school that serves it.

      Lynchburg is pretty much all bad – except for one or two schools because it has a large population of poor blacks.. both rural and urban.

      Henrico is split between the richer neighborhoods and the ones that border Richmond.

      The flaw in the approach they are using is to use the data at the state level.

      it hides the neighborhood school disparities that show the real picture – that Virginia has some really good schools that get SOLs in the 90’s and 80’s and it has some really bad schools – that blacks and hispanics tend to attend.

      Jim wants to make this about race and single unmarried women but it’s really much more prosaic.

      It’s about poverty – and about parents who have lousy educations who are barely employable or need entitlements – and they know nothing different – and that’s how their kids are raised..

      Those kids are harder to teach – but in schools that do devote the resources to teach them – the results are clear – those kids do much better …

      it’s a sad fact of life that there are kids who need more education resources than others to stay on grade level and actually be able to get the grades in high school to go to college –

      we resent having to “deal” with these kids – as taxpayers and as school administrators.. but what exactly is the alternative?

      we just push them into high school where they either drop out or “graduate” as virtual functional illiterates – who then need entitlements – have kids – and repeat the cycle.

      Anyone who is serious about fixing this has to get away from the moralistic judgemental mindset and deal with the issue. folks who are not serious will continue to “blame” .. and make excuses for why we continue the cycle.

      1. James A. Bacon Avatar
        James A. Bacon

        Larry G. said, “Anyone who is serious about fixing this has to get away from the moralistic judgmental mindset.”

        Please detail what in this post struck you as exercising as “moralistic judgmental mindset.” I am baffled as to what you’re referring to. I couched my tentative conclusion in the form of a hypothesis and invited readers to refine it or give a better explanation. And, oh, by the way, I was positing an explanation that did *not* attribute the differences to culture.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          ” Please detail what in this post struck you as exercising as “moralistic judgmental mindset.” I am baffled as to what you’re referring to. I couched my tentative conclusion in the form of a hypothesis and invited readers to refine it or give a better explanation. And, oh, by the way, I was positing an explanation that did *not* attribute the differences to culture.”

          I would ask you to go back to your earlier posts and read the part about how to fix the problems of single parenting and the such..

          I will go back and extract them if you think you did not say those things but it was my impression you were talking about the futility of trying to help kids who were into gansta rap and similar…

          do you recall that?

          but this post repeats the things you said before that in my mind have been thoroughly discredited in that you are looking at state level data and not neighborhood school data where it has been pointed that the “gap” you speak of is very different at the neighborhood school level and that some school districts have significant gaps in fact between schools …

          so it appears to me, with this post, you are evolving a bit – but not much.

          you still persist in portraying the GAP at the state level.. and do not acknowledge the neighborhood school issue.

          1. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            In other words, you were extrapolating material from previous posts into this one. Well, you extrapolated wrong. I did not mention those posts for a reason. They didn’t seem relevant to this particular issue, as you would see if you followed my logic.

          2. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            Jim – we have different views then and perhaps I do need to go back and get your comments.

            you don’t see your past posts and comments on SOL gaps connected to this one?

  3. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG
    How about it. You do those studies.

    Why don’t you tell us the answers “If the tests were harder, then why weren’t all groups effected equally? Why did black and Hispanic scores decline relative to white scores?

    My district excusers tell us that LCS’s blacks, with the second worst SOLs in the state, score so poorly because they are Economically Disadvantaged.
    Did, all of a sudden, the minorities become so much more disadvantaged so that their results plummeted across the state?

    You write a lot of stuff yet you provide no insight.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      LG
      How about it. You do those studies.

      Why don’t you tell us the answers “If the tests were harder, then why weren’t all groups effected equally? Why did black and Hispanic scores decline relative to white scores?”

      I’ve done it HCJ. I posted several times the results from the SOL table builder for Lynchburg and Henrico as well as some schools in Va where blacks score equal to whites and a couple where whites, blacks outscore Asians.

      “My district excusers tell us that LCS’s blacks, with the second worst SOLs in the state, score so poorly because they are Economically Disadvantaged.
      Did, all of a sudden, the minorities become so much more disadvantaged so that their results plummeted across the state?”

      Lynchburg has a LOT of economically disadvantaged and a super conservative School Board and BOS that barely covers the required minimum funding. That makes it very difficult to attract experience, well-educated teachers to that system.

      The Lynchburg System is in trouble with the state – on accreditation. It appears to me that they are close to having the step actually step in.

      “You write a lot of stuff yet you provide no insight.”

      well , no , I have (actually many times – tables from the SOL builder).. but you and Jim persist in your tendencies to purposely ignore the data and run back to your culture excuses.

      The state level shows show a racial disparity and yes, it gets worse when the SOL standards are made harder – because the kids at the bottom in the poor neighborhood schools don’t get the help they need already.. they just get worse.

      You guys never say how the parents of these poorly performing kids – themselves got such lousy educations.. but we probably know why if they went to the same schools , right?

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Hill City Jim, What’s interesting about this particular sample of statistics — and just as interesting if you zoom in on Lynchburg — is that it shows how scores can vary significantly over time for the same demographic. As much as I believe that culture accounts for some variation in achievement, I would be hard pressed to argue that either economic disadvantage or cultural factors can explain large year-to-year swings. Clearly, something else is in play here. As you pointed out in your email to me, that something else is probably the tightening of the SOL standards.

      Every racial/ethnic group saw declines in the pass rate, some more than others. The question, then, is why. The logical explanation, to my mind, has some connection to the tests. The trick is figuring out what that connection is.

      Unfortunately the state DOE wants to put a happy face on test scores, especially on minority test scores, so I don’t know that we’ll get much cogent analysis out of them.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        not all dropped.. some hung in there but a lot more did not –

        but this is pretty simple in my mind.

        the best students tend to be in schools with the best teachers – and they will adapt and evolve to tougher standards much easier than the students in schools that are hanging on by their thumbs and their teachers or new and/or inexperienced because it’s not a school that appeals to veteran teachers.

        it feeds on itself…. a school system is not going to chase off a good teacher by trying to assign them to a tough school that has SOL problems and administrators and principles are looking for “bad” teachers to assign the blame.

        So the existing teachers in a system are not dumb. Why would they go in harms way ? You’ve got a classroom of kids who are seriously behind and a principle and administrator who are ready to cut you lose if it saves their skins in a school with bad SOLs and/or accreditation trouble.

      2. Hill City Jim Avatar
        Hill City Jim

        The excusers say they are using 10 year old study materials and they haven’t changed the curriculum in 5. They used to tell us it was staffing but LCS has the 7th highest number of instructors per 1000 and they have added 60 in the last 10 years for the same number of students. They have now hired a Director of Culture. Mo’ money they say even though Lynchburg is the 3rd most taxed in the state.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          it’s not the total number of teachers. It’s the KIND of teachers for the ED kids.

          I’m sure you are familiar with Head Start and Title 1 -both of which do work and Title 1 requires a Masters Degree – specifically in teaching diagnostics and remediation for reading.. as far as I know the math aspect is not as well advanced.

          a Director of Culture – .. strikes me as a made-up position with some cynical ruminations .. it’s not culture that is the problem and hiring someone along those lines smacks of something with an odor.

    3. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      that’s affected HCJ not “effected”….

      the math testing is significantly harder than before and has AFFECTED a substantial number of schools but let me point out in our area – the Stafford School system had ONE school that got into Accreditation trouble – out of almost 30 and nearby Spotsy had 6 or 7 out of 23 schools that got into trouble.

      The same thing happened a couple of years back when English got stiffened up.

      Keep in mind that across the state – on average only 1/3 of the kids meet the NAEP proficiency standard anyhow and the vast majority who do – are NOT the ED groups who are, in a lot of schools that do not target them for improvement – barely hanging on.. and yes.. they are going to get whacked by tougher tests. All this does is point up their current precarious status…

  4. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    and HCJ – you have a problem also.

    You never say how we fix this.

    what is your answer?

  5. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG,
    What? You have no idea what you are talking about!

    “Lynchburg has a LOT of economically disadvantaged and a super conservative School Board and BOS that barely covers the required minimum funding.”

    There are 30 divisions that have a higher percentage of ED students than does LCS. And this year the taxpayers are funding 213% of the Required Local Expenditure, one of the highest in the state.

    Maybe you need to run your stuff by the “Truth O’ Meter” at the RTD cause you surely would register “pants on fire”!

    Forget Henrico, forget Lynchburg, talk about the 300,000 black students that dropped so much further behind the white students. As I asked JB, “are the newer tests racist?” Because the number of ED black students didn’t increase proportionately to the drop in their passing rates!
    So Mr. expert, answer the questions. In 1000 words or less.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      re: you have no idea…

      okay HCJ –

      do a retrieval from the SOL db and list out the SOL scores for each school in Lynchburg..

      then we talk

      and we’re not talking about PERCENT of ED students.

      we’re talking about their performance relative to other schools.. in Lynchburg and in the state.

      you are correct about funding.. it appears that Lynchburg now funds better than some but still down quite a bit from others.

      middle of road – about 4K per student local money

  6. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG
    “that’s affected HCJ not “effected”….
    What the H… are you talking about?

    Local funding is dependent upon one’s ability to pay as measured by the Composite index. You know, us “economically disadvantaged” taxpayers are not required to put up as much as you rich folks. But I am sure you are an expert on that as well.

    I’ll do Lynchburg’s stuff as soon as you do your own localities. Send it to me.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      ” Local funding is dependent upon one’s ability to pay as measured by the Composite index. You know, us “economically disadvantaged” taxpayers are not required to put up as much as you rich folks. But I am sure you are an expert on that as well.”

      I’m an expert on NOTHING but I DO read and I will share with you where I get my info.

      Virtually every school in Va funds more than the required but the issue is HOW MUCH and for what purpose – the 2nd part which you will not likely find out.

      Most of Lynchburg schools – last I saw – were school-wide Title 1 which means they can receive Title 1 money and spend it school-wide instead of having to spend it specifically on Title 1 positions…

      “I’ll do Lynchburg’s stuff as soon as you do your own localities. Send it to me.”

      I’ll do it .. for Spotsy and possibly Stafford.

  7. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG
    Now I see, I made a typo.
    But Mr. Perfect/expert says “It appears to me that they are close to having the step actually step in.
    Man I wish I was as smart as you…you should get your own blog!

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      I’m not a smart guy HCJ… I just read.. and try to find out what the truth is when there are seeming conflicts … not always successful…

      here is the link you need for Spotsy 3rd grade black/white, 3rd grade SOL math – scores

      notice the disparities between schools even for ED blacks.

      https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzajQVNNRK3BdXhEVi1pSXFnQlU/view?usp=sharing

  8. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG
    “Most of Lynchburg schools – last I saw – were school-wide Title 1 which means they can receive Title 1 money and spend it school-wide instead of having to spend it specifically on Title 1 positions”
    This is so wrong…where do you get this stuff? Those federal pass thru funds, about a billion dollars statewide, have to be spent on Federal projects, food, staffing etc.

    You are just foaming at the month now…check your facts!

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      HCJ – here is Heritage from the DOE site:

      Heritage Elementary
      501 Leesville Rd, Lynchburg, VA 24502-2392
      Lynchburg City Public Schools
      Principal: Mrs. Sharon S. Anderson Superintendent: Dr. Scott S. Brabrand
      (434) 515-5230 (434) 515-5000
      Title I – School Wide Program <————-

  9. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG
    You send me one grade at one school and expect me to do all grades at all schools?

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      If you want I can send the PDF to your personal email or to Jim who can forward it.

      it’s a PDF file with all the elem schools in the county.

  10. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
    LifeOnTheFallLine

    There’s an old expression: when white American gets a cold black America gets the flu.

    Black and Latinx families don’t have the same resources available to buffer them from changes in the standards. They don’t have the resources to spend on – just as an example – summer enrichment programs or tutoring. So when the standards tighten up and white students see a dip in performance of course black and Latinx students are going to see a larger dip.

  11. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    We have a philosophical barrier to this issue – no question about it.

    but it’s not really a legitimate “liberal” vs “conservative” contest unless one side wants to make the argument that we should not have public schools at all to start with – and that would – at least be a principled discussion on that basis. But arguing that we should have public schools, pay 10K a year to educate kids and say that public education and/or parents “fail” and we cannot spend any more money – is philosophical purgatory.

    Either get in the game or get out of it but don’t stand there bleeding.

    It’s ALSO wrong to think that “liberals” want to “help” poor blacks or others. I don’t believe in “help” in Govt – unless there is a return on the investment and when we spend 10K on a kid who then spends the rest of his life getting entitlements from us – that’s not “help” – that’s just plain dumb.

    It’s about fiscal conservatism… how to accomplish the stated goals with the money we can afford. If the money you are spending is not working – then it does not mean nothing can be done. I means you’ve bought the wrong system … you bought something that is not working – and you have to fix it. It’s not like you bought the wrong car and decide you’re not going to have a car or you will but you wan’t buy gas or oil for it.. although that’s exactly how some folks think… these days.

    but if all we look at is “racial gaps” – and not what happens to the kids who grow up without a sufficient education to be employed – pay taxes themselves and not need entitlements – then what the purpose of that kind of dialogue in the first place?

    No – I DO NOT think EVERY KID can be saved nor that there won’t be people that will need to be imprisoned. Kids are going to fail no matter what (they fail in all the advanced countries) and kids are going to grow up and even if well educated – commit crimes that will send them to prison – prisons are in every country.

    so the dilemma is – for me – that when a LOT of kids do fail (more than other countries and more than we can afford) – no matter their “culture” or how bad or irresponsible their parents are – what do we do?

    What good does it do to blame the single parent who lacks an effective education and/or a partner/spouse who is in prison for selling drugs on the street to pay for their needs?

    How do you fix that? Do you just toss their kids away because those kids are a burden to us and I’m not asking that question morally – but fiscally.

    so I ask Mr. Bacon and others of similar philosophy if – Conservative encompasses the idea of fiscal conservatism – when it comes to education?

    Why in the world would we invest 10K per kid but refuse to pay 2K more to give them extra help – and instead choose to pay them a lifetime of entitlements?

    I just don’t see this problem getting fixed by lecturing parents of economically disadvantaged kids to shape up and stop being poor and stop having kids while being poor. We can do that – but how effective is it? How truly fiscally conservative is it? But that’s essentially the only answer I see from some.

    It’s NOT LIKE we DON’T KNOW how to teach economically disadvantaged kids – we DO – it’s demonstrated over and over in many schools across the Old Dominion but for some reason – for the schools that do not successfully replicate existing successful methods – of which there are admittedly many, too many, .. why do we descend and devolve into this narrative about racial gaps as “proof” of a culture problem?

    what does that solve ? how does that lead to any better outcomes – for taxpayers?

  12. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    Hey Jim –

    You know I am one of those evil STEM guys who are destroying all that is beautiful in the world. So, in that vein …

    “If the tests were harder, then why weren’t all groups effected equally? Why did black and Hispanic scores decline relative to white scores?”

    I am not sure your graphic demonstrated that black and Hispanic scores fell faster than white scores. You hold the white score as a percentage at 100%. If 1M whites passed the test one year and a single white passed the test the next year both years would still be 100% – no?

    I think you need to show the percentage of whites that passed the test in order to have a graphic that demonstrates a difference among the various races. You may be absolutely right in what you are writing – I just wonder if your graphic backs up your comments.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      The math tests got harder – no question – but relative to NAEP proficiency and states like Massachusetts and First World countries Virginia was behind.

      If you look at AP rates in our schools – even in schools with higher AP rates – the rate for higher math is atrocious – in the 10-15% range.

      “higher math” is essentially the ability to work on a real world problem – and know what solution parts require math and what kind of math – and then fabricate a solution.

      It’s not STEM – but it’s the kind of thinking and problem-solving that STEM represents.

      virtually everything we do these days involves technology that if fueled by math –

      it’s where the good jobs are… employers want people who can understand problems and devise solutions… what they don’t want is someone sitting at a desk and performing tasks that were developed by others to problem solve.

      and it’s the kind of math that – to this point – was not required of Virginia students.

      the dreaded “word” problems if you will.. that’s what is on the new, tougher test… it requires someone to be able to read .. understand.. know what math is needed… often in a multi-step way – and come up with the correct answer.

      the ED kids are often crippled in the area of “reading to understand” so the rest of the problem is just a total disaster.

      It’s not easy even for the kids that are not ED as many of them don’t like math and are trying to figure out future jobs that don’t require math!

    2. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Totally fair statement. I’ll get back to Jim Weigand about that.

  13. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry said, “Why in the world would we invest 10K per kid but refuse to pay 2K more to give them extra help – and instead choose to pay them a lifetime of entitlements?”

    I think a lot of conservatives *would* be willing to pay the extra $2K per kid per year if we thought it would make a meaningful difference. But after decades of steadily increasing spending on education, adding more and more personnel, we’re sick and tired of promises that spending more money will make the difference. We just don’t believe it any more.

    I think it might be worthwhile to conduct experiments at individual schools. Set up the proper protocols with control groups and adjust for key variables (family incomes, disabilities, teacher experience, class sizes, etc. etc.) to make sure the findings are scientifically valid, spend the extra $2k and carefully monitor the results. Let’s see what happens. Give us data to support intelligent decisions.

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      Jim – as usual with Conservatives – you’re conflating virtually everything.

      If you look at individual schools which you seem loathe to do – you will find schools that are very successful at teaching the ED demographic so you KNOW it CAN work but instead you blather on about other unrelated issues like “bad” or “union” teachers…

      we KNOW what works and we KNOW it costs money and yet you focus on what is not working and say that’s the reason to not pay ….

      it makes no sense.

      it’s like owning a car and refusing to repair it even if you end up walking.

      why do Conservatives approach govt this way? they surely would not approach their own lives this way.

    2. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
      NoVaShenandoah

      I think that if there are Conservatives who are willing to pay even 1 penny, they have been very silent. My observation is that Conservatives are of the opinion that helping anyone, except the wealthy, is contrary to whatever religion they practice.

      I know this sounds harsh, but it is my observation.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        well.. it sort of calls into question what “help” means… in the first place..

        Conservatives seems to have far less problems spending tons of money on troops to invade and occupy failed nations or lined up shoulder-to-shoulder on or own border or funding the NSA to gather bulk data on everyone.. etc..but pray GOD we spend money on education because it “fails” and we know for a fact that DOD and National Defense have no such failures.. so it’s money well spent and more is good.

      2. James A. Bacon Avatar
        James A. Bacon

        NoVaShenandoah, I can’t speak for all conservatives, just the ones that I know, and the idea that they don’t care about helping the poor is patently ridiculous. The people who make such characterizations probably don’t know many conservatives personally. Usually working through churches, my friends man soup kitchens, partner with inner city schools, do volunteer work in Haiti, etc. etc. What they (and I) oppose is the simple-minded idea that forking over more money to government will make a difference. We’ve been doing that for fifty years, and look at the results.

        Conservatives give their own money to help the poor, donating to programs they believe will make a difference — often causes in which they also volunteer their time. Why don’t liberals do the same? If they believe so strongly about the poor, why don’t they give more of their own money and time? I see nothing virtuous or compassionate about holding a gun to someone’s head and extracting their wealth to support government-sponsored causes that liberals (and nobody else) support.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          re: forking over money

          you know it’s totally ironic that the thousand dollars or so most localities get each year for Education comes from the Feds and it gets spent on Head Start and Title 1 and the localities choose to spend their discretionary money on other things…

          conservatives have no problem what-so-ever – demanding more and more money be spent to “secure the border” so I sometimes wonder who the real fiscal conservatives are because it’s often not those who oppose the govt spending money – on the things they disagree with… but fine otherwise.

          when local govt refuses to add on money to Title 1 Federal money with the excuse that the Feds “waste” it.. it’s an indication that ideology as overtaken fiscal conservatism – if there ever was any.

        2. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
          NoVaShenandoah

          I understand what you are saying, especially since the best man at my wedding is an arch-conservative. However (you knew there is one) I cannot forget that we were taken to a war against Irak on manufactured evidence, that cost us several trillions with more to come, and there was no complaint from the Conservatives/Republicans. People, Americans as well as Irakis, actually died because of it and entire communities that existed for thousands of years have been uprooted (I am referring to communities that survived 1000 years of Muslim rule BTW). But Republicans/Conservatives did not complain, at least in public.

          So, concern for those in need … don’t look to Conservatives/Republicans.

          1. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            Conservatives when confronted with specifics tend to run off to another part of the Conservative realm claiming they are not in the group you are referring to.

            but they all line up at the voting booths the same way at elections.

            It’s hard to pin down Conservatives these days and none no harder than the ones we used to say were “fiscally conservative but socially moderate”.

            the social moderates seem to have been hunted to extinction, ..and all that is left are the ones that blame Hispanics and Blacks for screwing up our American values and society, and don’t give a rats behind on how much money we spend as long as it’s not for the “wrong” things.

          2. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
            NoVaShenandoah

            larryg, I too am socially moderate and fiscally conservative. ‘Socially moderate’ in that I really don’t want the state (government) telling me what I cannot do; nor do I view the ‘law’ as a vehicle to enforce morality.

            I am ‘fiscally conservative’ in that I think that society must decide what it wants to finance and then pays for it. Paying for it means raising (or lowering) taxes. (You lower taxes if you want to support a sector or area, until it becomes strong to stand on its own; or because economic policies are successful and generate too much revenue – hello Bill Clinton). That means that I am a very big opponent of ‘borrow and spend’ and lean more towards ‘tax and spend’. The reason is that ‘tax’ includes immediate pain and you think whether you want to spend. ‘Borrow’ on the other hand forces the choice to the next fellow.

          3. larryg Avatar
            larryg

            NovaShenn… then you are a RINO.. and have lost your party because the party you used to be in was either the BlueDog Dems or the Moderate GOP..

            The Moderate GOP is no more.

            they pretty much all vote to blame blacks and Hispanics for being – blacks and Hispanic and poor… blame liberals for the budget deficit which is 90% due National Defense – DOD + Homeland Security + NSA + the VA + NASA + DOE

            we take in 1.5T in revenues and more than a million is spent on “national defense” but “entitlements” are the problem.

            We sell guaranteed insurance to seniors with 85K in retirement income for 100.00 a month but we demonize the POTUS for cutting 700 billion from extra Medicare subsidies over and above the 100.00 a month but the right cannot truthfully articulate what to do about it..

            we subsidize mortgages for beach homes and then also subsidize the flood insurance on them – but we get into a froth about minimum wage and hispanics working for slave wages…

            so it’s no surprise that the phrase “socially moderate, fiscally conservative” has gone the way of the DODO bird. Such people, now days, are called – “liberals”.

          4. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
            NoVaShenandoah

            Not quite a ‘RINO’. I don’t belong to any organized party (which might make me a Democrat, but I’m not). I do agree that the Republicans have veered hard right, starting with Reagan – who is quite a leftist to today’s Republicans.

            So, I do vote Democratic lately, not because I agree with the Democratic positions, but because the Republicans are so incoherent and irrational.

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