Questions About Virginia’s Global Warming Policy

The Commonwealth of Virginia no longer has a state climatological office, but Gov. Timothy M. Kaine still has a lot to say about Global Warming. Yesterday, he testified before Congress, warning that rising sea levels due to Global Warming threatened the health of the Chesapeake Bay and put Hampton Roads, the second lowest-lying metropolitan area in the country after New Orleans, at risk. (Read accounts by the Virginian-Pilot and Times-Dispatch.)

Kaine endorsed a bill that would set up a “cap-and-trade” mechanism for controlling emissions of carbon dioxide, a gas widely blamed for rising temperatures globally. If you’ve got to regulate C02 emissions, a market-based, cap-and-trade system is probably the best way to go. But it won’t come close to solving Virginia’s problems.

Here’s why. C02 emissions are rising, and they will continue to rise, no matter what the United States does. By capping emissions, we can slow the rate at which “greenhouse gases” accumulate, but we can do nothing to halt what’s happening in China, India or the rest of the developing world. According to the Christian Science Monitor, China is on track to build 562 coal-fired power plants in the next eight years, while India is planning 213. Those power plants will produce twice as much C02 as the Kyoto protocols are designed to reduce.

If the linkages exist that Kaine believes exist — (1) rising C02 emissions will push global temperatures higher, (2) higher temperatures will melt the icecaps on Greenland and Antarctica, and (3) the release of melted water into the oceans will cause ocean levels to rise two feet this century — then Virginia still has a problem.

If Kaine believes the commonly accepted Global Warming scenario, then he needs to spend less time telling Congress what the nation should do, and spend more time figuring out what Virginia and Hampton Roads can do.

A few questions:

What is Virginia doing about the continued residential development in low-lying areas likely to be inundated by rising sea levels? Does it make sense to allow development, and to expend public dollars on providing infrastructure for that development, on territory that could lie underwater by the end of the century? Does it make sense to spend millions of dollars for sand replenishment along beaches that will most likely be washed away?

How is Virginia modifying its transportation plan to accommodate rising sea levels? Hampton Roads plans to spend billions of dollars upgrading its road system. The route for the proposed Southeastern Expressway would run through some extremely low-lying ground. Would parts of that route be inundated by rising sea levels? Would it be prone to flooding in a hurricane? If one of the stated purposes of the Expressway is to function as an evacuation route in a hurricane, that question would seem germane!

What other measures can be taken to protect Hampton Roads against a New Orleans-style disaster?

What measures can be taken to offset the effects of rising temperatures on the Chesapeake Bay ecosystem? Would it help to reduce sources of man-made stress on the ecosystem, such as reducing the flow of pollutants into the Bay?

What can we be doing here in Virginia to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? The state’s new energy plan notes that Virginia should adopt more energy-efficient human settlement patterns, and more energy-efficient transportation systems. But is the Governor willing to expend political capital to change Business-as-Usual practices?

Update: The Baltimore Sun has more on the Sprawl-Global Warming connection. A report by the National Center for Smart Growth Research and Education estimates that more compact, mixed use development patterns could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 7 to 10 percent.


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28 responses to “Questions About Virginia’s Global Warming Policy”

  1. Anonymous Avatar

    “A report by the National Center for Smart Growth Research and Education estimates that more compact, mixed use development patterns could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 7 to 10 percent.”

    It could be, but I don’t think so.

    Consider Australia. 85% of the population lives on 2% of the land, and yet they have a high rate of energy usage and an even higher rate of increase. Maybe the settlement patterns they have on the 2% they use are very bad.

    The USDA reports urban dweller driving 24,674 MPY year vs 28,397 for rural divers with costs of $2867 vs 3492. Much of this cost difference is due to the fact of driving larger vehicles and pickup trucks.

    But urban dwellers may use public transport in addition to their autos, If 6% of urban transport uses mass transit (in addition to the auto miles driven) then the average miles traveled is 26155, and not 24674. And the cost of mass transit is on top of auto costs, except for a very few, so the Urban travel cost is higher than that calculated buy USDA.

    And the USDA figures didn’t allow for more fuel used per mile in urban areas (more waste).

    Then throw in the much higher rate of urban electricity use per capita, and it is hard to see how more compact developemnt buys us very much, unless it truly is mixed use.

    There are a raft of other factors that contribute to greenhouse gas emmissions besides settlement patterns and there is ver ylittle concensus that one settlement pattern is better than another.

    What we do know is that collections of smaller cities are more efficient than one big one. Indeed, Holland has a policy of promoting growth in “bundled disaggregations” for just this reason.

    RH

  2. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Here is what I find interesting about the global warming dust-up.

    Remember CFCs?

    why do we accept the “threat” of CFCs and take action rather than have the same dynamics with some claiming harm and others claiming no harm.

    .. or .. did the folks who are now classified as “skeptics”.. were they also “skeptics” when it came to CFCs?

    CFCs ..do contribute to Global Warming… and it was on this basis that they were banned (and the US Agreed).

    So.. did we agree that Global Warming caused by CFCs .. WAS a real threat… but Global Warming caused by other activities.. is not?

    I’m confused – as usual.

    what is different?

  3. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Larry, Point of information: Were not CFCs blamed for the ozone hole? That might be the source of your confusion.

  4. Anonymous Avatar

    I don’t think there is any doubt that CO2 contributes to global warming. So does water vapor.

    CO2 also contributes to respiration and cooking and keeping warm.

    We switched CFC’s to something else (other CFC’s) that doesn’t cause harm (yet, so far as we know). Or, we could have gone back to ammonia based refrigeration, and what a joy that was.

    We don’t have any substitute for breathing, yet.

    We do have substitutes for massive and excessive waste of energy generated by fossil fuels.

    Of those substitutes, compact, mixed use settlement patterns probably have the least impact (if any, it has not been determined conclusively) and the farthest into the future.

    JB claims he is not in favor of social engineering, but he is willing to ask whether or not the Governor wants to take that political and economic risk. If changing business as usual through government intervention isn’t social engineering, then what is?

    Of course, the government has an obligation to protect health and public safety. Government also has an obligation to determine what damage the intervention will cause.

    To whom. And when.

    Energy keeps people alive. I’m not sure I see any point in freezing now to save the planet while the Chinese are building power plants to overheat the planet 50 years from now. The Indonesians and Africans are burning off the forests to grow food.

    The planet has been much warmer than it is now, and much colder. There are some things we cannot expect government to manage. Wasn’t the Plague a result of an explosion of rat borne fleas that were suddenly able to survive as Europe came out of the little Ice Age? If the water comes up two feet then we will need to back up some. Or we could spend a few billion for dykes.

    Suppose government does a huge study and concludes that energy keeps people a live, and people cause excess energy use that will kill them? Excess CO2 is the ultimate result of bargaining with the devil. Government concludes that the best and cheapest solution is to allow energy shortages that will cause enough people to die so that the problem goes away. Besides, the old people are more susceptible to cold and they will kick off first anyway. That way the government is not “responsible” for the problem, hey it’s just an energy shortage.

    What’s different is that CO2 is a lot harder to get along without than CFC’s, and a lot harder to avoid. I agree CO2 is a big deal, but I’m pretty sure I won’t be worried about two more feet of water a hundred years from now.

    What was that little prayer? Change what I can, accept what I can’t, and know the difference.

    RH

  5. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I guess I was wondering why we did not have “skeptics” with CFCs….

    and we do with regard to global warming ….

    was the proof of damage so convincing with CFCs that there were no skeptics?

  6. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Actually, scientists are reconsidering the CFC link to ozone depletion. Rush Limbaugh quotes an article in Nature.com (which you can access only if you are a subscriber) as follows:

    “It now turns out — and this is a story from the journal Nature.com. It turns out that a key chemical reaction that was part of the theory that manmade chemicals are causing destruction of stratospheric ozone has been found to be almost ten times weaker than assumed. As a result, at least 60% of the stratospheric ozone loss in recent decades can no longer be explained. However, the last paragraph of this story illustrates quite plainly that these scientists are nevertheless circling the wagons around the Freon ban saying they still think that manmade chemicals are to blame in some way even if they don’t understand the mechanism.”

    Obviously, this is Limbaugh’s spin on the story, but it appears that scientists are reappraising relationships and connections that were once universally assumed to be true.

    Let’s see how the New York Times covers *this* story — or if it deems to be worth a story at all.

  7. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    I recommend going to the source for the smart growth report “Growing Cooler: The Evidence on Urban Development and Climate Change.” Here is the link from the Baltimoresun.com

    http://smartgrowthamerica.org/gcindex.html

    Here are two factoids from the Smart Growth America site. The 5.1 mb pdf is on line.

    “The report cites real estate projections showing that two-thirds of development expected to be on the ground in 2050 is not yet built, meaning that the potential for change is profound. The authors calculate that shifting 60 percent of new growth to compact patterns would save 85 million tons of CO2 annually by 2030. The savings over that period equate to a 28 percent increase in federal vehicle efficiency standards by 2020 (to 32 mpg), comparable to proposals now being debated in Congress.”

    “While demand for such smart-growth development is growing, government regulations, government spending, and transportation policies still favor sprawling, automobile-dependent development. The book recommends changes in all three areas to make green neighborhoods more available and more affordable. It also calls for including smart-growth strategies as a fundamental tenet in upcoming climate change legislation.”

  8. Global warming was around before mankind ever showed up on this planet and it will continue with warming and cooling cycles long after we leave the face of this planet. Did we cause it? No!!!! Can we stop it? No!!!! It’s a cycle that this planet of ours goes through, plain and simple.

    That said, I’m all for finding ways to conserve energy, better mileage vehicles, etc. But I am also pragmatic enough to be able to see when some ideas go too far. Smart Growth is an idea that goes too far. Getting rid of private vehicles is going too far. Tweak the engines, find other less polluting ways to power them, but get rid of them – sorry. The automobile is what gave this country the the ability to become the powerhouse that it is in the world.

    I’m still trying to figure out how “smart growth” is better than owning a piece of land (even if it’s just a 50 X 100) lot that has grass, bushes and trees on it. If I live in a “smart growth” condo, I have and contribute to concrete, steel and runoff. If I live in my SFH with my lot, the rain soaks into the ground, instead of runoff. My grass, trees and bushes absorb CO2 and give off oxygen.

    There are many scientists who once agreed with the ‘global warming’ scare, who after looking at all the research, now dispute Gore’s findings. When I looked at all the facts (not just the Gore propaganda) I saw that water vapor is a much bigger contributer to the so-called ‘global warming’ than CO2 ever thought of being. I saw that the facts were very cherry picked and lacked an incredible amount of data to back the conclusions (too many ‘facts’ were recent data that was extrapolated). I saw that even IF the draconian measures of the Kyoto accord where put into effect (which would cripple the world’s economy) we couldn’t effect the temperature by even 3 degrees (talk about much ado about nothing). This globe had warmer (and cooler) temperatures in our past history both before we had our ‘civilized world’ and after we developed our civilization. Those temperature swings happened both before and since the inventions that we came up with that put CO2 in the atmosphere.

    Oh, and I hate ‘smart-growth’ because I moved out of an apartment LONG ago (plus, you ever try to do a welding project at 2 AM in a condo?)

  9. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    At 8:23 AM, Accurate said…
    “I’m still trying to figure out how “smart growth” is better than owning a piece of land (even if it’s just a 50 X 100) lot that has grass, bushes and trees on it.”

    Your false straw man does not advance the discussion of the Sprawl-Global Warming connection. Here is one definition of a smart growth neighborhood.
    The neighborhood is emphatically of mixed-use and provides housing for people of different incomes. Buildings are compatible in size and disposition to the street. The daily needs of life are accessible within the 15-minute walk. Commerce is integrated with residential and industrial use, though not necessarily on the same street in a given neighborhood. Apartments are permitted over stores. There is a mixture of housing types, including apartments, single-family, duplex, accessory apartments, and out-buildings, disciplined in mass and location. No minimum square-footage requirements.
    Note that a plan that excludes single-family housing (on a 50 X 100 lot) is dumb growth, just as a plan that requires one acre lots is dumb growth.

  10. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    how will global warming restrictions “wreck” the economy?

    It would seem if you implement rules that require environmental “widgets”, that you create more jobs.. not less

    Don’t we already have a bunch of companies making environmental products and providing services – and those jobs would not exist without the environmental laws that required new “widgets”?

  11. Anonymous Avatar

    I’d like to know how the authors calculated that savings due to smart growth. There are plenty of other authors that see it differently.

    In England the population of major cities has declined by 8% since the 1980’s while small and medium sized cities grew 15%. Of course, nothing in this prohibits smart growth, and it may be an indicator of smart gowth itself, since it is pretty well established that a collection of smaller cities is more efficient than a single large one. And, since development rights were nationalized after the war England has long discouraged sprawl, although that is now changing somewhat.

    “The energy implications of macro level changes of this kind are intriguing, possibly significant, and highly uncertain. since there is no clear agreement about the causes of counter urbanization it is not possible to define the type of settlemnt pattern which might be its outcome. Even if it were clear that in the early 21st centure we might see a greater proportion of the population living in smaller freestanding towns well away from conurbations, the energy implications of this are still far from clear. Theoretical work tells us that such a settlement pattern is potentially energy efficient: a shft from a city/suburb structure to smaller quasiautonomous units could result in lower travel requirements, but only if people choose to live, work, shop, and take their leisure in small town.

    Long commuter trips might be replaced by shorter journeys, but would these be by auto instead of more energy efficient rail? Woudl walking and cycling be encouraged by proximity of facilities and a more peasant environment? would the time and energy saved by not commuting be used for other travel? Second home ownership has intersting implications.

    since these questions cannot be answered absent relevant data it can be argued just as convincingly that counter urbanization is energy inefficient as that it might be efficient. The energy consequences are not immediately clear.

    What we know is that significant social and structural change is taking place on a regional scale as well as within specific planning areas. But the outcome both in terms of settlement structure and its implications for travel and energy demand is still very uncertain. Whether emerging patternsare more or less energy intensive than existing ones may itself depend upon energy availability and constraints. The system is interactive and therefore changes in the energy system may influence current urban trends.

    Since the influence of the energy sytem on spatial structues is complex and invloves many variables it is difficult to envisage, let alone predict with any confidence how energy changes might influence the way in which settlemnt structures evolve. A review of the scholarly literature fails to provide a definitive answer to the question: will changing energy supplies and energy costs transform urban spatial structure.”

    That being the case, I submit that it is just as difficult to predict that some urban form is less energy intensive than another, even if you could somehow force its creation. And these comments come from a place where development rights are entirely controlled.

    We would do better to do as this author goes on to suggest, to examine and understand all of the causes for the patterns we have and work to make what we have more efficient rather than changing it all.

    There is a quite famous study that considered the coming and goings of grocery stores over a long period of time in one town wherein the pattern of habitiation did not change very much. One would think that, over time, those groceries of the right size and spatial conveneience would survive and some balance wold evolve.

    That proved not to be the case, and the author went on to understand and explain many of the social and economic reasons why. It probably is true that two thirds of the development on the ground in 2050 is not yet built. But it is utterly unrealistic to plan on “shifting” 60 percent of that growth to compact patterns that the smart growth coalition desires. Even 15% would be a major victory.

    But increasing automtive mileage to 40 mpg is child’s play, and that isn’t going to happen either.

    In short, we do not know that one settlemt pattern more enrgy efficient than another. We don’t have the regulatory tools to create it if we did, and even if we save massive amounts of energy, we can be sure that the Chinese will be happy to use what we saved for them while competing with us.

    We should be focused on using energy the best way we can. That might, or might not mean, using it to build so called smart growth communities, which might or might not save energy.

    But, as long as we have single focus groups like smart growth america pushing a single agenda regardless of and exclusive of every thing else, we are likely to come up with wrong or incomplete answers every time.

    That cannot be energy efficient.

    RH

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    JW gives a nice narrative description of what a smart growth neighborhood might be like, but there is nothing in it that ties the description to what he calls the sprawl/global warming connection.

    What percentage of global warming is really caused by sprawl? If you have a house thet burns 800 gallons of fuel over the winter, does it make any difference if it is on a large lot or small?

    We already know that, while suburbanites do burn more vehicle fuel than urbanites, the difference is almost entirely due to the fact that they choose to drive larger vehicles.

  13. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    The numbers on the Smart Growth America web page: http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/gcindex.html
    agree with the numbers generated by COG, the DC region MPO.

    “Depending on several factors, from mix of land uses to pedestrian-friendly design, compact development reduces driving from 20 to 40 percent.”

    The choice of cars is a separate question.

    When you look at energy per household you can’t start with the number of gallons of fuel as a fixed value. The large lot, small lot question is related to driving, house size, and community. These changes all add up to more money for purchases other then energy. Money not spent on energy is good for both the individual and the economy.

  14. Anonymous Avatar

    Larry makes a point, but the answer isn’t all that simple.

    If I expend x energy to produce y product then I have some level of efficiency.

    Same is true to the guy whose Y product is an environmental widget.

    But now if the first guy has to go buy the second guy’s environmental widget he has effectively spent his own energy plus the widget energy, and he still has only the same product. Whoever buys that product must be willing to pay more in order to get a) the product and b)the environmental benefit.

    If there is any. Lots of time we really don’t know whether or not the energy and resources consumed in producing the widget are greater or less than the environmental benefits claimed. If the environmental benefits claimed are accurate.

    If the customer isn’t willing to pay both costs, then First Guy and Widget guy are both out of business, and the economy suffers.

    Not only that, but the environment suffers because of the black market effect. If the costs of exotic new CFC’s and recycling them gets too high, pretty soon there will be backyard engineers cobbbling up their own ammonia based refrigerators.

    Then, the first time someone fries their eyeballs with ammonia, we’ll pass another law.

    Pretty soon we have insufficient refrigeration and we kill more people with salmonella that we would have with CFC’s.

    So, you have to draw the system boundaries pretty large in order to measure all the effects, but not so large that you cannot measure them.

    Certainly you cannot simply say that Widget is going to save you 50% of pollution or energy related to product Y until you figure the environmental cost of producing and distributing and disposing of Widget, along with the probability cost of putting the producer of Y out of business.

    You cannot claim all of the benefits of Widget and ignore totally the costs to the producer of Y or his customer. It just isn’t a real savings.

    so, when I see something like the smart growth america statement above, I read is this way: If we can get 60% of people who want to do something, to do what we want instead, or do it the way we want, then we will save 85 million tons of CO2 and it won’t cost us anything, and it won’t cost them anything either because they were going to spend the money on something anyway.

    That is a mighty big if. It is such a big if that it undermines the credibility of environmentally aware people. Just as Accurate mentions above.

    Then, instead of accepting what he has to say, and building his reservations into our model, we just attack him as being some kind of environmental moron who doesn’t understand the ONE REAL TRUTH.

    I just don’t see it as a good way to do business. You can’t get a new customer by bludgeoning him. Instead, show him a mixed use community that includes a shade tree auto mechanic park. Then, after you cater to everybody’s whims (not just the smart growth whims) show me how it is any cheaper or better, uses less space, or less eneergy than having private property where people can be assured that they will be allowed to do pretty much what they want.

    Even if what they want is to open a conservation reserve.

    RH

  15. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    RH almost gets it.

    I suggest the Smart Growth America statement be read: If we allow the 60% of Americans who want to do what we want to do it, then we will save 85 million tons of CO2 and it won’t cost us anything, and it won’t cost them anything either because they were going to spend the money on something anyway.

    When buyers see a mixed use community they pay extra. The problem is that VDOT and zoning laws have not kept up with the market. The lag is what the Smart Growth America study is about. The lag will grow as energy prices increase and the dollar value decreases.

  16. Anonymous Avatar

    JW

    The smart growth america web page says that it reduces driving 20 to 40%. But other researchers say either different, or we don’t know, yet. Or, they say gee it looks that way, but we can’t replicate the results from place to place, so there must be a lot of other factors at play. One author listed 30 factors in additton to compactness, any of which might have an equal or countervailing effect.

    Despite what smart growth america says, the jury is still out. Maybe we will have good data from Metro West or other projects some day. For now, it is a tough job to deconfound all those other factors and say unequivocally that smart growth defined as these parameters results in these effects.

    Settlement patterns might have nothing to do with energy savings, or they might be the least effective and most expensive way to get energy savings, or they might be the godsend the smart growth america claims. Fact is, we don’t know yet.

    I stand by my previous comments. The extra amount of fuel burned by suburbanites is almost entirely due the the size of the vehicle they drive, not the mileage. The smart growth claims are wrong and/ or misleading and incomplete.

    And then there is th e question of how much money is spent. Rural drivers actually spend less on transportation than urban drivers, even thought they drive more miles. Apparently they drive older and less expensive vehicles and pay less insurance, and spend the money moving rather than sitting, among other things. Those numbers are readily available for anyone who cares to look.

    And now we find it isn’t just large lot small lot, it is size of house, the kind of community, and discretionary travel too. Presumably these changes result in less money spent on energy, but that isn’t certain.

    “These changes all add up to more money for purchases other then energy. Money not spent on energy is good for both the individual and the economy.”

    I would maintain that all purchases boil down to resources and energy. In the plastics age even the resources may be interchangeable with energy. Therefore, if you save money on energy and spend it on something else, then a good portion of that will have been energy anyway, and you have not saved much.

    Money not spent on energy is good for the indvidual, unless the idividual is trying to keep warm or go someplace. Money not spent on energy is good for the economy only if the energy was otherwise wasted.

    I’m not sure that if an individual saves a little money on energy and then walks down to some vibrant urban cafe where he spends it on Lattes or Margaritas is all that big an improvement.

    Money not spent on energy is certainly not good for the economy if you include the energy vendors as part of the economy. It is cetainly not good for the economy if we could have used the energy gainfully and did not.

    You could argue that ALL space heating energy costs are wasted. Once you turn off the heat you have nothing to show for your previous investment except for what was accomplished in the heated space. Since you can accomplish more in a large space than a small one, you can’t argue that heating large spaces is more of a waste than heating small ones, necessarily. It is a value judgement.

    Even transportation is more valuable than space heating. After you turn off the truck you have delivered something to somplace where it is more valuable than where it was before. Therefore you still have something for your investment.

    The smart growth argument is persuasive because it makes so much sense that seems intuitively obvious. The arguments seem reasonable on the face of it. At the same time its weakness (so far) is that it is superficial.

    As Accurate pointed out, OK we travel less and heat less space, maybe, now what do we do about welding?

    It isn’t an issue to most people, but you can’t simply plan it away and not count that as a cost. Otherwise you got a lot of people jumping in their truck and driving off to the weldingshop, or where ever, and you find yourself 50 years down the road saying, gee, we built all this smart growth stuff and people are still driving all over, don’t those planners understand ANYTHING?

    Which is pretty much what we are saying today about the planners of 50 years ago.

  17. Anonymous Avatar

    Yes JW, but what if we allow them to do what we wish they would, and they don’t want to?

    “The problem is that VDOT and zoning laws have not kept up with the market.” Which I read as saying they have not created the market you wish to see. You might be right, but “allowing” them to live in compact mixed used development while hindering anything else is not much of an allowance.

    And the proof is in your own statement that people in mixed use developments will pay more.

    Isn’t the whole point to pay less? Isn’t that what people want? Where did all those wonderful savings in transprotation and energy go, if they got eaten up in housing and other costs?

    You gonna put housing over stores: what if the store is a full of flammable paints and thinners? You got big enough ladder trucks? You got enough inspectors? What if you allow people to live over stores and they think about this and decide not to?

    This smart growth thing needs to be cheaper AND more desirable. Environmentally friendly would be nice, too.

    Right now we can’t prove any of it. On the other hand if all of this was as demonstrably true as smart growth claims, then it would be obvious and you could’t keep folks out. In which case, why do we need smart growth america, unless it is to try to convince us of stuff that ain’t necessarily so?

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH – you don’t need to prove that something is better, cheaper, more efficient .. to implement it.

    Using your logic.. we’d have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the cost of pollution equipment on power plants was cheaper that the harm the pollution causes…

    How would you do that?.. for say all the Rivers in that region having higher levels of mercury and higher levels of mercury in the fish?

    Same way with .. say air bags… how would you prove – ahead of time – what the actual result of air bags would be?

    how about mandatory life boats on ocean liners?

    Using your logic – you’d “prove” that Ocean liners don’t sink so therefore we should not be putting expensive lifeboats on them…

    I’m not saying that your thoughts are wrong – just pointing out that there are other factors involved in making such decisions.

    so.. the government REQUIRES some environment widget to be used – like a catalytic converter on an auto…

    putting aise the argument about whether it is “cost effective” or not – would you not admit that those coverters ..do provide jobs and that people WILL pay for those converters as part of the auto purchase price?

    so again.. I ask the question – how will global warming regulations “wreck” the economy if it provides more jobs just like other safety and environmental regulations also provide jobs?

  19. Anonymous Avatar

    “we’d have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the cost of pollution equipment on power plants was cheaper that the harm the pollution causes…”

    In a word, yes.

    Otherwie, you are probably casuing more harm than prevented. Especially if the beneficiaries are not paying the extra cost.

    Then, it is simply stealing.

    How would we do that? We do it all the time. The allowable Mercury levels are set at or below some threshold of harm. Otherwise you are saying that it is OK to spend an infinite amount of money to prevent an infinitesimal amount of harm.

    In turn, that money is not available to prevent other, more egregious and more dangerous harms. Now, reasonable people can disagree on the amount of harm prevented: no one says that is easy to assess.

    But, they ought to at least be able to agree on a uniform method or algorithm for establishing the costs and benefits. Having done that, we can then rank order the possible projects and decide where best to spend the available money and how important it is to get more money.

    We can agree on the order of priorities and expenditures without agreeing on the actual level of harm or benefit, but we don’t do that. Instead we have an infinite number of special interests each claiming that their favorite problem is ranked number one according to their analysi, and their preferred solution has the highest ROI. The result is that well-meaning but uninformed environmentalists are hugely wasting our resources.

    —————————-

    Provided that people WILL pay for those converters as part of the auto purchase price, and they believe they are getting a reasonable amount of what they pay for(cleaner air) I don’t have a problem.

    Where I have a problem is if they are sold a bill of hysterical goods (the cost is far more than the damage ostensibly prevented is worth), or if they require the controls and don’t pay for them (as in the Johnson Grass saga.)Such cases are quite common, once we learn how to identify them.

    For the record, I don’t think that global warming regulations will wreck the global economy any more that global warming will. 🙂 But then there is the problem of whether it happens sooner, and what your acceptable discount rate is. How much are you really willing to pay now to prevent damage 200 years from now?

    Global warming regulations will do some damage to the economy if they cause expense and fail their mission. In other words, if the cost is higher than the damage prevented.

    And don’t forget that the cost may be local and the benefit global, therefore the cost is disproportionate, maybe.

    For reference try:

    Economic Rights by Paul, Miller and Paul;

    Energy Management Handbook by Turner;

    Environmental Economics by Field and Field; or the other one by Kolstad.

    Engineering Economy by Grant & Ireson;

    The Economics of Zoning Law by Fischel;

    Theory and Practice of Industrial Waste Treatment by Nemerow,

    Incineration of Hazardous Wastes and Sludges by Sittig;

    Industrial Waste Disposal by Post;

    Water Treatment by James

    For a more interactive experience try http://www.env-econ.net

    As Tim Haab puts it

    “Anytime I see a scientific presentation followed by a call to action, I ask ‘why?’ I’m not trying to be a butthead, but instead trying to get the presenter to think about the trade-offs involved. A call to action is a call to inaction somewhere else.”

    ….. “But failing to consider alternative uses for the money may lead to underfunding of more important projects.”

    To that, I would only add that this applies double when the presentation is pseudo scientific.

    And I would add the ethical concepts of economic and property rights as espoused by Paul, Miller, and Paul, and Fischel among others.

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    “Depending on several factors, from mix of land uses to pedestrian-friendly design, compact development reduces driving from 20 to 40 percent.”

    This is a meaningless statement because it does not consider all the costs and all the benefits. It simply assumes that whatever it takes to reduce driving by that much is worth the effort.

    It appears to presume that if a little walking is good, then a lot of walking is better.

    Furthermore, just because three sources use the same numbers, doesn’t mean the number is right or well substantiated. This is a favorite tactic, often employed by AFH among others. “See, everybody who quotes these numbers says the same thing, so it must be right.”

    COG, by the way figures on getting only 15% of new development in compact spaces, as I recall.

    Then we have to ask why we wish to reduce driving. Presumably it is to reduce waste and pollution, and the effects of waste and pollution. But if we are wasting cost in our effort to reduce driving, that is waste, too. If we save a half hour driving and spend it walking and waiting for the bus, we have saved no time.

    So it comes down to pollution and the effects of pollution. If we have 40% less driving and 40% more congestion because of compact development, have we saved anything? Do we have more concentrated pollution in less space? Have we exported pollution by importing electricity?

    So depending on several factors compact development might be worthwhile or not, but meaningless statements such as reduce driving by 40% does nothing to promote the cause.

    I am on your side, I would like to believe this is correct, but I cannot, based on the evidence. Then, after you convince me it is correct, you will have to convince me that a) it is more valuable than other projects in the queue, and b) the means to achieve it is fair and ethical.

    I think we have a long way to go.

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar

    Try it this way.

    Assume you have fifty projects and fifty advocacy groups. Each group makes its argument fo its project.

    Then you assign four other projects to the group at random. The assignment is this: as far as possible, use the same argument and the same kind of analysis to rank these four other projects compared to your favorite.

    Now you have 50 ranks and 250 rankings. Naturally each groups favorite is at the top of thier list, unless some other group shows up with a real tear jerker.

    You have fifty different methods of ranking, but each is internally consistent.

    You get one point for each case of being first on the list, which is probably one point. You get two points each time you are second on a list, and so on. The projects with the highest scores get ranked lowest over all.

    This way, it does not matter how bad your logic is, as long as it is applied consistently. One group calculates a human life as being worth $500,000 another at a million.

    Your projects are save the bay, prevent aids, prevent swimming pool drownings, reduce VMT, prevent Johnson Grass, etc. etc.

    Anybody want to play?

    RH

  22. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH – I think you are still missing the point….

    The guy who lives in Alaska..does not want nor need a catalytic converter.. and could probably prove that there is a negative cost-benefit ratio.

    I can give you hundreds of examples where ROI is NOT the determining criteria for whether the government mandates something that makes a product more expensive.

    You’re essentially arguing from how you think the world should work and I’m pointing out that from a practical perspective – this is an unrealistic approach because a straight up ROI-only-approach is almost never the determining factor on many, many things – not only for government but for individuals who buy stuff that is actually proven to be ineffective… and yet they still buy it.

    similarily, there is no easy way to prove what the “safe” level of mercury in rivers is nor the dollar consequences of “unsafe” levels of mercury with respect to the health impacts.

    To actually determine the true ROI would require… a decades-long study of hundreds of thousands of pregnant women and kids to figure out the health-care and mortality costs that could be directly tied to mercury in the rivers.

    be that as it may, the law REQUIRES pollution equipment on power plants and you, in turn, ARE REQUIRED to pay for it through the embedded cost in your electric bill.

    You argue that it is “not right” to charge for something unless it “can be proven” that the ROI is better than the harm of not having the required widget.

    and you further argue that.. things under consideration and not yet implemented .. cannot be implemented – without a full and rigorous ROI process and that you are not required to pay unless and until.. that process is done.

    sorry to break this to you – dude – but it don’t work that way.

    If it did – we’d not have a single power plant with pollution equipment on it….

    .. and that is exactly the basic argument that the companies operate power plants has made.. over the years.. to no avail…

    🙂

  23. TOM DISOUZA Avatar
    TOM DISOUZA

    Pages of many web site contains global warming pictures. But that pictures not give enough information of global warming. Global Warming myth is very deep ozone has doubled since the mid-19th century due to chemical emissions from vehicles, industrial processes and the burning of forests, the British climate researchers wrote.

  24. Anonymous Avatar

    Look Larry, I didn’t make this stuff up. It is all in the standard literature and textbooks.

    If we demand a benefit that we are not paying for, then it is stealing.

    If we demand a benefit that costs more than its benefit, then we are being wasteful polluters.

    You may not agree. We all often ratinalize things that don’t make the slightest sense.

    In the case of power plants, we all pay the cost of pollution equipment and we gurantee the company a return on investment. At present, the concensus is that we think the controls are adequate for the costs imposed. Bu,t some people will endlessly argue for still more controls.

    There is still some limit. At some point the cost of further reductions in Mercury or CO2 are so great that it makes no sense to do it whatsoever, and furthermore it is damaging to other more important projects. We can disagree about what that point is, but there is no doubt that there is such a point.

    You can give hundreds of examples of where ROI is not the determining decision factor. These represent, then, hundreds of examples of how the government is wasting our money and poisoning us.

    OK, so we have decided to make political decisions instead of rational or economic ones. But, you can’t say that and say in the same breath that these decisons, not based on ROI, are for my own good. They are political decisions precisely because they are for someone elses benefit.

    Just don’t steal politically and then say ROI makes no difference, and then complain about government waste. If you want to steal politically, go ahead. That’s the system we have. Just be honest enough to admit what you are doing, and don’t paint it with an environmental or public benefit paintbrush.

    ——————————–

    We make that guy in Alaska buy a catalytic converter becasue it makes the price of all catalytic converteres a little lower. And we don’t know where that car may wind up. So we make a rationailzation that says the cost of all catalytic converters everywhere is worth the cost of all pollution reduction, everywhere, even if the reduction is not evenly distributed. This is a case where we put the money in a black box and let the benefits fall where they may.

    So yes, that guy in Alaska is paying a little more for something that is of little direct benefit. But maybe if you count back the extra money that he won’t have to pay out in federal emphysema disability, it isn’t all that bad.

    We don’t know and never will know every input and output to the system. We can always enlarge the boundaries a little. But, the same rule applies: If I enlarge the system, will the cost of the studies required be worth the effort?

    The way we figure out what safe levels are is that we use animal studies and extrapolate the results to humans. We make very large safety margins at every step in the process. Later, we go back and measure the actual mercury levels in human tissues and compare it with what was predicted.

    It isn’t perfect, but it is the best we know how to do. With bioaccumulators we allow even bigger margins. When we have enlarged the scope of study enough, we would hope that someone says, hey, beyond this point we need to accept some simplifying assumptions: it just isn’t worth it.

    We all know that doesn’t happen, and every study ends with a request for more funds.

    But, there are very large and loud and vocal groups that can and do argue for stndards that may be excessive. Under our system, they have little or no requirement for them to consider or prove the utility of their position.

    In fact, in some instances it is written into the law that such considerations are not allowed. Such rules were written in, politically, because the evidence for what is really required as opposed to what people think they want, is not very good.

    In other words, we are deliberately and politically wasting money and resources in the name of conservation. In the process we become polluters ourselves.

    Now, suppose that we do continue to study mercury contamination over the years, and suppose we find out that, oops, we made a big mistake. The law that requires all those overblown controls was a big mistake. Would we as environmentalists then campaign to have the controls eliminated in favor of a better environmental option?

    I doubt it. And that is what is wrong with us.

    We can make a law that REQUIRES certain activity. Absolutely. But if that law does not have a sufficient and fair economic basis, then it is a bad law. It is wasteful. It causes pollution. It kills or damages people needlessly.

    No, we probably won’t get a full ROI analysis. We will have to make some simplifying assumptions. Things are in constant flux over time, so everything doesn’t a hearing isochronically. It doesnt mean we cant try, or fix things later when we were wrong.

    But that doesn’t mean that we can have the Council on Mindless Regulation come out with some study that says gee, golly, we’ve discovered that if we just put lipstick on pigs we can reduce fafoofniks by three firkins per fortnight!

    Yippeee, LET’S GO SPEND SOMEONE ELSES MONEY!

    No, I don’t claim we have to ahve a full and rigourous ROI analysis for everything. But, when someone presents us as environmentalists with an analysis we don’t like, then it is up to us to counter it with one we do. Not with fluff.

    We cannot just say it doesn’t matter what it costs, this is what we want. Because it is wasteful and polluting.

    And we can’t just fall back on “its the law”. Because then is stealing, if the law is not justified.

    So no, I’m not so unreasonable as to expect a full and rigorous ROI on everything, a priori. But we ought to at least try. Right now there is no process, and the process is even outlawed in some cases.

    I can’t see how we can be so stupid as to refuse to admit that there might be such a condition wherein we are spending money for something that is not worth the cost, simply becasue we believe in the cause, and we’ve got the force of law behind us.

    And then claim it is for the public good.

    It is hogwash, Larry. As long as we keep it up, we weaken our cause, do less good than we might, and make ourselves look like radical morons or extremists, and economic dunces as well.

    RH

  25. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    … is it consistent …to argue that “sometimes” we need full-proof ROI and at other times we do not…. depending…

    if no two people will ever agree to a consistent way of determining “sometimes” and “depending” ?????

    and that’s why it’s called politics.

    if some folks _suspect_ there is harm and others don’t agree – we take a vote…

    has anyone every actually proved that everyone that smokes cigarettes WILL get cancer?

    have we ever proved on a percentage basis how many will?

    do you see my point?

    how do you calculate ROI when the data is not absolute?

    Prove to me that the cost of public education is “worth it” on an ROI basis.

    Demonstrate without a doubt that the cost of all those never-used lifeboats on cruise ships is “worth” it

    tell me how you decide what level of mercury pollution that is “safe enough” and that the harm caused is far less that the cost of the pollution controls….

    I’m not advocating not using ROI but I am saying that unless there is a comprehensive way to prove it with facts that cannot be refuted.. that there will always be a lack of universal agreement – even economic and this is especially true with future impacts.

    what is the cost of guessing wrong on Global Warming being _real_?

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    You never get a full proof ROI, because you can always enlarge the boundaries of the system. But, you can identify when it is no longer worth the effort to enlarge the boundary.

    What we have now is no ranking at all, with each special interest claiming they have an inalienable right to their spot in the sun, no matter what the cost.

    So the opening gambit is this: we have x projects presently in mind. There might be some other project that we haven’t even thought of or recognized yet (CFC’s pre ozone hole), but we can’t help that. All we can do is rank the ones in front of us now.

    Probably, the power plant pollution control issue is reasonably well understood, and reasonably well controlled. We could add more controls, and it would cost more. What we don’t know and won’t agree on is whether the additional harm prevented is worth the additional cost.

    And this comes down to the lifeboat issue. What is the value of a human life saved? What is the value of the quality of life say, with and without asthma. These are hard questions, but not unanswerable.

    If the value of human life is infinite, then we can afford to spend anything and everything to save one – even to the extent that all the rest of us starve in the process. It is a ridiculous argument, of course, but the value of one infinity is equal to the value of multiple ones. Therefore there must be some limit.

    Your argument is that there is no way to calculate it, and so we must rely on votes and law. OK, but there still has to be some limit, otherwise the law and the votes, and the voters, are are stupid. They are voting to spend their own money on something they won’t get.

    So, the value of human life argument is central to the cost and value of environmental protection argument.

    We probably are not going to agree on a specific value, but we can look at certain decisions and decide there are bounds.

    Consider your lifeboat example. Prior to the Titanic the rule was that you had to have lifeboats for the persons on board up to some limit. Titanic carried that limit. Unfortunately, conditions had changed and the limit was no longer sufficient. Here’s acase when the rules should have been made stiffer and weren’t, but there are plenty of examples the other way, too. Anyway, that’s the history.

    We have prety good records on accidents at sea. We could figure out how much we have spent on lifeboats and how many lives they saved. That gives us one data point on what we spend to save one life. We could also figure out how many people drowned in spite of lifeboats being available. With those two numbers we can figure out the probablistic value of a lifeboat seat.

    Then we can do the same thing with lifejackets. This gives you the probability that a dollar spent on lifeboats will save a life vs the probability that a dollar spent on lifejackets will save a life. Now you know where best to spend your money, and you don’t have to know the value of a life.

    We know how many people die of lung cancer, and we know how much we spend on anti-smoking campaigns. Now we can figure out whther we should spend more on anti-smoking, lifeboats, or lifejackets. We can do the same for seatbelts, etc.

    We have pretty good records on how many people we have executed. We could probably figure out how much we spend to kill someone, too. We could count that as the negative cost of a life.

    We could do a survey of jury awards for wrongful death, take an average, and that would give us a point.

    Eventually we have a scattergram with a range of values on it, for different scenarios, each with different probabilities. We can argue, maybe, that we should spend more, but historically, this is the range that we have been willing to spend, and we can’t spend an infinite amount on all of them.

    So, now we have a range of values, and the next time we come up with a project that might save lives, we do a sensitivity analysis across the range of values we have.

    If we have more than one project to compare, one project might have a better ROI all across the spectrum than the other. We still don’t know what the real ROI is, but we know which one is likely to be better.

    You are right about comprehensive facts that cannot be refuted. Now suppose we have made some regulation based on the best probable facts. Then someone comes up with irrefutable evidence we were wrong. What should we do? What do we do?

    Usually we raise the battle flag and claim we cannot give up on our previously hard fought victory. Or we fall back on the argument, well, its the law.

    So, the problem isnt that there isn’t universal agreement. The problem is that we don’t wish to find an agreement. We don’t even want to look far a path that might lead to one, because we have already decided where we want to go.

    We want what we want, and we want someone else to pay.

    Either you agree that a real effort to find and improve on our ROI knowledge is the best way to allocate scarce resources, and to continually improve that allocation, or else you admit that you prefer majoritarian rule regardless of the cost.

    That’s perfectly OK, but then don’t compalin about government waste, or who pays for what.

    RH

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”your argument is that there is no way to calculate it,”

    not quite…

    no practical, cost-effective way to calculate all of it … if there were, such decisions would be a lot easier … at least then you’d know the complete economic costs…

    for instance…. MRI/Cat scans on apparently healthy people turns up a certain percentage with early-stage illnesses that are usually treatable/stoppable/cureable.

    but your insurance company nor the Feds will pay for them.. because.. of ROI…

    but guess what.. if you are rich or a very important person… the ROI … changes…

    the same thing happens with stuff like mercury… asbestos, ddt, pcbs, … initially thought under control at (then) existing levels but as time goes by and more data becomes available.. the ROI changes..

    I think this is the crux of the argument with respect to Global Warming.

    On one side.. those that are skeptical… and need more proof and on the other side.. those that think that the ultimate harm that might result is far more significant and important than the current uncertainties.

    You have to admit… mankind’s track record with regard to chronic underestimating of potential harm is not very good….

    we almost always guess wrong… always hopeful that we won’t have to further restrict some activity.

  28. Anonymous Avatar

    I agree that you hzve to make some simplifying assumptions. But then look at JW’s statement about compact development reducing travel.

    If you have 40% less travel and crowd that into 40% less space it might take 40% longer to travel, create 40% more pollution and expose 40% more people to 40% higher levels. And, losing that travel might have costs of its own.

    Then there are the internal and external costs of creeating such a place. One thing I notice is that “environmentalists” are pretty strong on calling out external events from other’s activities but lacking entirely when it comes to a similar level of observation with respect to their own activities.

    But JW’s statement claims a dubious benefit, without substantiation, and without any mention of the costs involved.

    Maybe we can’t do a perfect job, but we can do better than that.

    And, maybe there is a way to use both majoritarian desires and rational deployment of resources, while at the same time protecting minority interests.

    “On one side.. those that are skeptical… and need more proof and on the other side.. those that think that the ultimate harm that might result is far more significant and important than the current uncertainties.”

    This is the crux of the problem, exactly. And in our winner take all society, neither side is willing to budge. This is like a soccer game where both sides use the entire team as goalies, when we know that most of the game is played in the middle of the field.

    In this case, as in many others, those that think the ultimate harm is far more significant and important than the current uncertainties, have the more significant burden of proof.

    In the first place the idea of ultimate harm implies some discount rate compared to current harm. So, we need to figure out when in the future this is, and what the discount rate is.

    Suppose we prove, or come to the conclusion that Global warming will be as bad as the plague, and it will wipe out two thirds of the population by 200 years from now. And suppose that the reduction in energy use required to prevent it is going to result in 20% of the population dying from hunger and exposure and overwork and spoiled food in the next 50 years.

    Would you be willing to make an investment that produces a 46% return in 175 years? Particularly if there is a 20% chance that you will die as a result of the investment? Now suppose that we admit that we are only 90% certain of the eventual outcome.

    Economically that means you can only predict a 42% return in 175 years. And during all that time you still hjave to face everything else that might wipe aout a few people, like AIDS, Bird Flue, because you have not adequately considered the ROI on those.

    In short, claiming the ultimate harm is far more significant is foolishly trying to make an end run around ROI. If the ultimate harm is of ultimate significance, then it has the ultimate ROI and we cannot afford to spend anything on anything else.

    And that is the problem with single issue advocacy. Each claims to be the most important, without reference to anything else.

    If we rank our priorites under ROI it does not guarantee that we won’t ultimately fail and meet our demise. It doesn’t guarantee that they won’t change over time. It only guarantees that we will do the best we can with the money and knowledge at hand. We might spend all our money on global warming for fifty years, and then learn that gamma ray bursts are a far greater risk.

    The problem with risk aversion is that you can so easily imagine a risk that will suck up all the available resources.

    And all this time I thought that the point of conservationism is to conserve resources and protect people. As conservationists we look like idiots if we insist that we spend everything on anything that looks like it might be a problem in a hundred years, when we’ve got plenty of problems to work on now.

    We might not be able to agree on what the ultimate risk is, but we still ought to be able to agree on what the rules are in order to decide.

    What are the range of values we will accpt for a human life? It is a hard one, but fundamental to everything else. What is a human life worth 100 years from now vs today?

    What will we agree to count as externalities, and what will we exclude? The input-output tables do not have to be perfect in order to make good decisions. This ties directly to the user pays argument. If the externalities are chosen such that the input output tables cover 90% of transactions, then we implicitly agree that a user paying 90% of costs is close enough.

    RH

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