Back in 1976, Harvey Molotch, a University of California-Santa Barbara professor, wrote an essay, “The City as a Growth Machine: Toward a Political Economy of Place.” Molotch argued that coalitions of business elites dominated metropolitan-level politics across the United States. They harnessed the power of government to promote regional growth and development, mold land use outcomes, and increase the value of their real estate interests. Noting the similarities between Molotch’s thesis and my observations in “Who Rules Virginia?”, blogger Richard Layman (“Rebuilding Place in the Urban Space”) brought the essay to my attention.

“The City as a Growth Machine” helped clarify how I look at the political economy of growth in Virginia. Three decades later, many of Molotch’s observations still ring true. I would modify his thesis, as I will note below, but I think it’s worth reviewing the highlights.

Writes Molotch: “The political and economic essence of virtually any given locality, in the present American context, is growth.” The desire for growth creates consensus among members of the politically mobilized local elites, however split they might be on other issues, and gives rise to a spirit of civic boosterism.

“The clearest indication of success at growth is a constantly rising urban-area population,” followed by the expansion of basic industries, a growing labor force, a rising scale of retail and wholesale commerce, more far-flung and increasingly intensive land development, and increased levels of financial activity. Members of the growth coalition augment their wealth by increasing the value of their real estate and enjoying the benefits of an expanding market for their products and services. In addition to the obvious suspects — developers, bankers, construction companies, utilities and the like — Molotch notes that local newspapers and universities often are part of the growth machine.

Molotch doesn’t seem to regard growth as inherently bad, but he observes — rightly, I believe — that there are both costs and benefits associated with it. As a rule, the growth machine manipulates the political process and levers of government to capture as many of the financial benefits of growth as it can while passing on as many of the costs as possible to the taxpayers and general public. That’s why in Virginia, developers, home builders and contractors dominate the donations to political candidates.

As growth accelerates, however, liabilities become visible in the form of traffic congestion, increased air and water pollution, the overtaxing of amenities, and, I would add, fiscal stress in the form of overcrowded schools and escalating taxes. Those liabilities, in turn, give rise to anti-growth movements.

In my observation, anti-growth movements in Virginia have consisted of a splintered and uneasy alliance of taxpayers, NIMBYs and environmentalists bemoaning taxes, congestion and loss of open space. Responding to oft-inarticulate cries of frustration, elected officials have enacted zoning “protections” that have given rise to the scattered, disconnected, low-density pattern of development. “Sprawl” has then created entirely new sets of problems such as unaffordable housing, even more dysfunctional transportation networks and even more pervasive damage to the environment.

Most local politics in the fast-growth regions of Virginia can be viewed as a tug of war between the “growth machine” and the anti-growth coalitions. In many localities, the anti-growth movement often adopts the rhetoric of environmentalism, although the root motivation of most middle-class suburbanites is typically a desire to uphold home values and preserve once-tranquil lifestyles. In the past decade, anti-growth forces in Virginia have increasingly accepted tenets of the “smart growth” movement, giving them a semblance of philosophical coherence, although deep philosophical schisms persist between those of an “environmentalist” bent and those of a “property rights” persuasion.

The key ideological prop of the growth machine, argues Molotch, is jobs. Growth brings jobs. That slogan had some potency when unemployment in the United States was a problem, but Virginia has long enjoyed a low jobless rate, and unemployment generally will continue to decline as the Baby Boom generation retires. Indeed, metropolitan regions will evolve from a fixation on addressing unemployment to a fixation on addressing chronic job shortages.

In the “Economy 4.0” series, I have argued that Virginia needs to redefine economic development. Growth is good — or, at least, it can be. It creates rising incomes and business opportunities. But the goal of “growth” should not be to create jobs for the sake of jobs, especially in regions where there is no shortage, but to raise incomes while restraining jumps in taxes and living costs — in sum, to raise the standard of living. That’s simply not possible if growth and development remains a mechanism by which business elites use the political process to transfer wealth from the public to themselves.


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70 responses to “The Political Economy of Growth”

  1. E M Risse Avatar

    Jim:

    Thank you for reminding me of Mollotch’s essay.

    I was sure we cited it in The Shape of the Future but cannot find a reference.

    Your summary is right on target and Mollotch will add a new dimention to “The Estate Martix”

    Good Work!

    EMR

  2. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Excellent tome, I agree and… articulate to boot! 🙂

    Not every town/city is governed (controlled is a better word) by “growth” elites but many are.

    “As growth accelerates, however, liabilities become visible…”

    yes.. because many of the “growth elites” are only interested in what is good for business AND they don’t know nor care about
    “Complicated” and “messy” things like infrastructure that are delegated to “staff” and/or blamed on the State – as in “the state has abdicated it’s responsibility to fix our roads that we have crapped up by not planning.
    This is why we hear the elites screaming now about the State “devolving” roads to the localities.

    Someone might actually hold THEM accountable for the traffic messes that THEY create in their zeal for “growth”.

    Also quite revealing is when one talk to the “pro-growth” folks about “growing” the quality of life … better/adequate infrastructure.. services, schools, libraries, EMS, etc – the “pro-growth” elites react often with dismay….and a standard tact – “well, heckfire ..that would require raises taxes and we are “no taxers”.

    That’s right.. drive the growth.. kill the infrastructure capacity and the quality of life.. and laugh at ordinary citizens who get the brunt of it.

    and then wonder why citizens, who JAB points out, can’t agree on anything…other than the pro-growth guys are idiots and need to be thrown out of office.

  3. Anonymous Avatar

    “deep philosophical schisms persist between those of an “environmentalist” bent and those of a “property rights” persuasion.”

    So that’s whats wrong. You can’t be an environmentalist and own property without being schizophrenic.

    RH

  4. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    actually the term environmentalist is a recent term.. prior to that they were referred to as stewards of the land and conservationists.

    of course we had the standard despoilers of the land also and more often than not.. if they did not own the land they despoiled that was not considered a problem.

    … and then the “conservationists” decided that the despoilers and polluters did not have the right to pollute land and water than they did not own and .. voila – we got Environmentalists!

    🙂

    but everyone knows today that environmentalists are primarily not land owners but want to land land owners what to do with their land – and of course landowners have words of advice for the enviros also.

  5. Groveton Avatar

    Jim:

    Exceptional piece. Extremely well written.

    “That’s simply not possible if growth and development remains a mechanism by which business elites use the political process to transfer wealth from the public to themselves.”.

    You call them “business elites”. I call them developers. Either way, I hope they have good HVAC in their homes. They need to enjoy the cool air. They are all eventually headed to a very hot place for a very long time.

  6. Anonymous Avatar

    Good piece. However…..

    My bet is on growth to slow down significantly over the next 5-7 years.

    People are hurting.

    Today my local paper had 16 foreclosure notices. I bet there are 40-50 a week in there these days.

    People are tapped out and basically living off of credit at a 20%-30% APR.

    Oil is almost $95 a barrell and it going to cost 30% more to heat your house this year…..wait until gas goes up.

    How long can this type of growth continue? I mean, who’s really growing in the scenario I pointed out above?

    IMO, it’s not the average guy on the street…the only thing growing for them is the amount of money they owe.

    At some point the bills must be paid…..with cash, not credit!

  7. Anonymous Avatar

    “That’s simply not possible if growth and development remains a mechanism by which business elites use the political process to transfer wealth from the public to themselves.”.

    Yes, but also remember that for much of the public their biggest source of wealth is the home they bought – which was built by a developer.

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Can it be said that rampant development (developers) are the visible symptom of an entire industry predicated on government insured and subsidized mortgages?

    When owning a home generates a better ROI than putting that same money into savings or an investment then people change the way they live and spend their money.

    They.. literally will “drive till they qualify” and then they will buy far more house than they need right up to the limits of what they can borrow … AND they’ll endure commutes of 50 or more miles a day to “protect” their investment.

    It’s become essentially a ponzi scheme…… and the folks who got in last – got burned because their loans went “upside down”.

    I think that mortgage subsidies have distorted the very concept of “growth”.

    When we have a system where the government subsidizes the interest on interest on a loan – and that loan then becomes.. essentially a speculative investment – the “growth” that is based on that concept is problematical.

    Once the pool of potential purchasers has been exhausted, what happens?

    Well. it’s pretty clear, the bad actors in the industry start offering mortgages to people who are bad credit risks, who should not be offered credit in the first place – but are – because the government, in effect, insures it AND let’s the interest be written off to boot.

    Mortgage subsidies distort the market for housing, by depressing the building of housing stock designed for rental (affordable housing) – because virtually everyone “qualifies” for a subsidized mortgage these days.

    Houses are actually advertised as having mortgages that are “cheaper than renting” when the tax refund is included in the calculation.

    Finally, mortgage subsidies have contributed to increasing VMT, increasing gasoline useage and a dependence on foreign oil sources by encouraging people to commute from where they work to “investment grade” homes.

  9. Groveton Avatar

    Larry:

    You ask the question:

    “Can it be said that rampant development (developers) are the visible symptom of an entire industry predicated on government insured and subsidized mortgages?”.

    Yes.

    Jim Bacon’s use of the term “business elites” (even if it was coined by someone else) is too broad. The manufacturing and high technology industries, for example, are notably absent from the political / land use controversy. Not all business people are part of the “business elites” who are stuffing the process to their personal advantage.

    My use of the term “developer” is too narrow. There are title search companies, insurance companies, real estate agents, lenders, lawyers and others who join the “developers” (in the strict sense of the word) to create the problems we have.

    I think we need a different term for that business ecosystem that abuses the political process to personally profit from land use decisions. Maybe “the land use abuse crowd”?

    Adjacent to the “land use abuse crowd” (and only slightly less culpable) are the local politicians and the ill-informed electorate. The level of problem with these two groups definitely varies by area. Some jurisdictions have more issues that others although I suspect you can find some level of “land use abuse” just about everywhere.

    However, in “Groveton’s hierarchy of villians”, the state legislature has sole occupancy of the top position. Worse than the “land use abuse crowd”, worse than the local politicians, worse than the ill-informed electorate, worse than the “business elites” at Dominion, worse than anybody. That group represents an unreformed beast that must be tamed. And the reformation will come only by taking the absolute power they hold away from them. We must have home rule and we must have stronger local and regional governments. EMR has been right all along on this topic.

    Maybe I’ll write a book called, “On a toxic swamp called Rich Mound”.

    Please note: No disrespect intended to the good citizens of Richmond – only to the politicians (from all over the state) who meet there.

  10. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”hierarchy of villians”, the state legislature has sole occupancy of the top position.”

    well.. they take the influence money in exchange for “friendly” legislation and squashing legislation that would threaten their business.

    To a certain extent, they are merely paid enablers… who will lose that influence money to their challengers if they refuse to do the pro-growth bidding.

    I think Groveton is dead on target.

    I’m a believer in growth – but not just development-growth done at the expense of infrastructure capacity, level of service and quality-of-life.

    Many “pro-development-growth” community leaders talk the talk about infrastructure.. about the State not abdicating their “funding” responsibilities.

    It’s a scam.

    The “State” is Virginia Taxpayers.

    What the pro-development-growth folks want – is taxpayer-financed infrastructure for their business egosystems.

  11. Anonymous Avatar

    “I think we need a different term for that business ecosystem that abuses the political process to personally profit from land use decisions. Maybe “the land use abuse crowd”?”

    Gee, Groveton, you are a businessman.

    How do you propose to take the personal profit out of property that is personally owned?

    Assuming that we knew how to make good land use decisions that future analysts won’t laugh at, doesn’t fully directing land use mean that some owners profit while others are left to languish? Presumably, if we knew how to do this, we would do it so that all of us are better off, somehow. Shouldn’t there be some accomodation for the languishees that make it possible?

    What the pro-development-growth folks want – is taxpayer-financed infrastructure for their business egosystems, and what the antidevelopment folks want is privately financed infrastructure that benefits them for free. How do we find a middle ground where the costs and the “profits” are shared rationally?

    RH

  12. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”how do we find a middle ground”

    the middle ground is user pays ..

    we have the model. water and sewer.

    No one pays for my well and septic and I’m not expected to pay for others well/septic or their water/sewer.

    “Assuming that we knew how to make good land use decisions”

    good land use decisions are easy to understand. The proposed development will NOT degrade the existing infrastructure.

    That is a GOOD land-use decision.

    development that proposes to use existing infrastructure without a plan for replenishing it – is a BAD land-use decision.

    Land-use decisions where one proclaims that they can’t really figure out what should be done – is DUMB/irresponsible land-use decisioning.

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    “The proposed development will NOT degrade the existing infrastructure.”

    This is equivalent to saying you can’t do anything, since anything will degrade the infrastruture. It is an impossible requirement, that will cause more problems than it fixes.

    I add a few shop tools in my garage and pretty soon my naighbor starts popping fuses because I’ve reduced the local voltage. Do that a few hundred thousand times, and you need a new power lines. Plus the shop tool repair and accessory trucks, custom lumber trucks…. All that stuff affects someone else, and we can’t allow that.

    Even if you add new stuff to replace what you use, the end result may not be assatisfactory. Who decides what amounts to degrading the infrastructure? Surely not someone who will set an impossible standard.

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    where in heaven’s name do you think the infrastructure that is degraded came from in the first place RH? from the tooth fairy?

    You make an excellent analogy with the electric useage.

    Yes.. you WILL indeed start popping fuzes on your home if you plug in more devices that it was designed to handle.

    And the electric company has a way to keep your prolifigate useage from affecting your neighbors.

    Your fuze blows – not theirs.

    and if more people move into a new area – the electric company adds the necessary infrastructure to serve them – and that cost is passed onto them in the form of new hook up fees – the same exact way that hook-up fees are charged for water and sewer.

    It is called “user pays”.

    now about that tooth fairy and subsidies….. I think I’m finally getting to the root of your logic.

    🙂

  15. Anonymous Avatar

    “Your fuze blows – not theirs.”

    And that is why Dominion says we will have brownouts starting in 2010.

    According to Dominion everyone will benefit from not having brown outs and we should all expect to pay for the new line in our rates. If you had your way, only people who plug in new stuff would pay.

    I agree that user should pay, but I understand “user” to mean anyone who benefits.

    Therefore, the middle ground is met when those that benefit from not having growth pay as much for that privilege as those that benefit from growth pay for their privilege.

    Otherwise, you always have an asymmetric situation in which one side claims you have no rights so that they can get their benefit at no cost, while the other side may get no benefit at any price.

    They enforce the claim by passing a law which enforces the theft but does not change the economic facts. This eventually has results that are predictable, and result in changes or exceptions to the law, but in the meantime, they still get what they want for nothing.

    The Smart Growth coalition would like to see things built in a certain way. They could turn the coalition into a corporation and build just what they want to see happen. But then they would have to take the risk and put up real money.

    It is much less expensive to get what they want by simply opposing everything they don’t want, at very little cost.

    According to Dominion, we will all benefit and we should all expect to see the cost in our bills. But by your way of thinking, only those people who plug in new stuff should pay.

    “where in heaven’s name do you think the infrastructure that is degraded came from in the first place RH? from the tooth fairy?”

    I think the current degraded infrastructure is being paid for with bonds so the costs can be spread to new residents as they arrive. I think the new “user pays” fiasco is a pathetic, badly named, and misrepresented lie which attempts to offload still more of our existing and long since underfunded obligations onto someone who isn’t here to vote, yet.

    I think there is some reasonable expectation that new users should pay, but the idea that they should pay 100% is ridiculous. That expectation is evidenced by the claim that they have no right to do anything unless we allow it.

    We can make that claim until we are blue in the face, but there are some things we can’t prevent. We will be a lot better off when we learn how to reach an accomodtion than we will be by claiming divine right.

    RH

  16. E M Risse Avatar

    Groveton:

    From many perspectives you are correct, state legislatures (plural, not just VA) are in first (or last) palce on the hands in the pot list.

    That is especially true for human settlement pattern issues (reserved to states by the US Constitution in many respects) and fialure to evolve a functional governance struture at and below the state level.

    But look at the lobby / contribution / pork barrel profile of all the high tech / entertainment / autonomobile / defense / fund managers / health care / efforts in congress and the federal agencies.

    Cleaning up Rich Mound is not enough.

    As we point out in The Shape of the Future a lot of those federal policies, programs, regulations and subsidies contribute to dysfunctional human settlement patterns too.

    It is a society wide crisis, and not limited to developers and those who profit directly from developement and over development. It is Mass OverConsumption and a profound failure to achive Balance and sustainabale trajectory.

    EMR

  17. Anonymous Avatar

    “and if more people move into a new area – the electric company adds the necessary infrastructure to serve them – and that cost is passed onto them in the form of new hook up fees – the same exact way that hook-up fees are charged for water and sewer.”

    Nonsense.

    I lived in an old, developed neighborhood. Even without new people moving in, the service degraded over time as people added more and larger appliances. Eventually the power company upgraded the service.

    Where do you think the money came from?

  18. Anonymous Avatar

    “It is a society wide crisis, and not limited to developers and those who profit directly from developement and over development. It is Mass OverConsumption and a profound failure to achive Balance and sustainabale trajectory.”

    Agreed.

    We can’t grow for ever, and balance is a lot harder at low speed. Balance is further complicted when each special interest only wants to push in one direction, in order to achieve their particular group overconsumption.

    RH

  19. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: electric company, level of service and growth.

    When Dominion puts in new power lines/underground lines for a new subdivision – where does that money come from?

    When Dominion says there there WILL BE outages if we don’t do something – what happens?

    Dominon is expected to provide reliable 24/7 electric service – no matter peak hour – and it pretty much does.

    Dominion does not blame the state for not “stepping up to the plate” to provide infrastructure for new growth – like many of our local BOS do.

    Dominion doe what is necessary to provide reliable – not degraded – electric service.

    What do our local BOS do in that regard when experiencing growth?

    It’s ludicrous to claim that existing residents do not pay for growth. They do in spades. Every new child costs about twice what the tax for new home brings in.

    Every new home is causes existing property taxes to increase in most places unless – they do not add the infrastructure needed for the new homes – which is how many places choose to deal with growth.

    Imagine Dominion claiming that new growth is responsible for deteriorated electric service – after the fact.

    Give them credit. They warn us up front that there WILL BE deteriorated service if we do not act.

    Compare that to the way that our elected BOS deal with growth.

    AFTER the FACT, they do what?

    they blame it on someone else.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH continues to claim that all development costs are loaded onto the backs of new residents.

    This is simply not true.

    “…fees on new development to help cover the cost of more students and classrooms. For a public elementary school, for instance, the fee would increase from $12,500 to $19,514, far less than the $32,524 recommended by the Planning Board.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/30/AR2007103002053.html

    guess who pays the remaining 13K?

    and this is per school.

    In some places like Loudoun than can build a dozen new schools a year, each one of those new schools gets loaded on the backs of existing residents.

    No only the cost of the new school but the operational costs.

    In Spotsylvania, the last high school cost 100 million dollars. One cent on the property tax rate brings in about a million dollars.

    Do the math. The new school was not built by developers. It was built by taxpayers. What developers/new home buyers contributed was the 100 acres for the site.

  21. Groveton Avatar

    RH:

    Taxpayers should not be subsidizing the profits of the “land use abuse crowd”. However, every time a parcel of land zoned 1 house per 3 acres is bought by a developer and rezoned to 1 house per 1/2 acre – that is what happens. It isn’t the guy who owned the land forever and ever that makes the profit – it’s the land developer. The guy who owned the land can’t get a zoning variance. Why? Because he hasn’t been contributing year after year to the politician’s campaign.

    Meanwhile, the extra infrastructre required to support 6 houses (instead of 1) is an “unfunded mandate”. The developer isn’t going to pay enough (any?) proffers because the politicians don’t want to upset the developers. The new homeowners will pay for some of the costs but not enough for the fully allocated costs. That will be bourne by the taxpayers in general when the state finds itself with … um … a $641M “revenue” shortfall.

    I think you and I are saying the same thing although I have been inarticulate.

    EMR –

    My biggest complaint with the VA state legislature is the strict adherence to Dillon’s Rule. Virginia is one of only 5 states that has no constitutional provision for home rule. The US Constitution granted certain rights ot the states. One of those rights was the right to modify the state constitution. 45 smart states have availed themselves of that right and legally ceded some authoritiy to municipalities. Virginia is among the 5 that have not ceded anything.

    So, Virginia’s state legislature is more culpapble than most.

    At least, that’s my take on it.

    As for high technology lobbying the Fed – the high tech companies are among the most hapless lobbyists in the country. The one exception is the phone companies (company? – are we back to one yet?). They have more lobbying savvy on a bad afternoon than the software industry has on a good year.

  22. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I used to think that Dillon Rule was responsible for Virginia localities problems with growth, development and infrastructure but home-rule states like Maryland and Florida also have failed to resolve completely the school and roads issues either.

    I’m totally convinced that the problem involves the integration of land-use decisions with the infrastructure consequences of those decisions and whether it is a Dillon rule or home rule – if the folks who make the land-use decisions are not held accountable for the infrastructure consequences, bad stuff happens.

    The pro-growth elite basically see demand for housing (spurred by mortgage subsidies) as “good” for business… more furniture, hardware, etc… more “opportunities” for small businesses but the “demand” for housing in a locality that requires purchasers to pay for the necessary infrastructure mitigation… depresses demand because other localities will get the business by offering lower prices but not charging for the infrastructure.

    The whole game is to get the growth from housing and to evade the infrastructure fallout.

  23. Anonymous Avatar

    ” However, every time a parcel of land zoned 1 house per 3 acres is bought by a developer and rezoned to 1 house per 1/2 acre – that is what happens.”

    I agree, providing you also agree that under downzoning the opposite happens. If you get downzoned from one house per three acres to one house per 150 acres, how many taxpayers are you subsidizing?

    I’m not contibuting to my politicians campaign because he already told me what his plans were for my property.

    ———————————

    “It isn’t the guy who owned the land forever and ever that makes the profit – it’s the land developer.”

    Economists say that when a community increases the cost of land throgh various fees and devices the cost of those fees and devices is split between the developer and the landowner. It works like this: if a county increases the cost of development by $6000 per unit then the developer is willing to offer $3000 per unit less for the land.

    Instead of being borne by the taxpayers in general the difference is borne by a few taxpayer who are grossly outnumbered by people who don’t understand what is really happening.

    A lot of costs the developers incur comes in the form of bureaucracy and delays.

    We would be better off if we just said up front what the cost is and allow development for whoever is willing to pay it. Instead we create this charade of environmenatl activism: we absorb the unfunded mandate costs in additional bureucracy and get nothing in return. In Fauquier county the head count at the Department of Community Development has increased four times faster than the population. How’s that for an ROI?

    ——————————–

    In Virginia last year raw rural land increased in value at a rate of over 13% – in spite of the housing slump. The land owners aren’t doing too bad at the gross level, considering that they do not take the risk and the expense of actually doing the development. Developers earn their money, and their profit margins are not large considering the risk and cyclical nature of their business.

    And, they generally represent about 25% of the local economy. In Fauquier, buiding trades are still the biggest segment of the economy – followed by three government sectors, and then real estate. Anyone who says we want to cut growth by 90% had better have an alternative source of funds.

    The agricultural value of the land is expressed in the land rent. The average cash rent in VA is $45 an acre – per year. The average price is $6000 an acre. The land rent suggests that the agricultural value is $450 an acre.

    “People may have a farm that is paid for and looks great on the balance sheet, but it can’t generate enough to sustain an agricultural business at today’s prices.” Gordon Groover, VA Tech Cop Extension

    With those kind of numbers you have to ask why we think we are better off with farm land than letting the developers have it. Thirty years ago FAuquier and Loudoun were quite similar. Today, the percapita income in Loudon is $6000 more (As I recall, maybe its only $4000.) and the per capita property assessment is more than $10,000 higher. Either growth is worth that much in Loudoun (and that is after the developers took their profits and split), or conservation costs that much in Fauquier – take your pick.

    ———————————-

    In Indiana and Illinois land is around $4200 an acre and the land rent is around $130. The difference is ethanol production.

    In Texas land is $1,470, the rent is $30, an acre and last year foreign investors bought over 400,000 acres. You have to ask what drives the difference between the agricultural value and the land value. Some of it is what is loosely referred to as speculation, and some of it is, but some of it is just a reasonably safe place to park money.

    Some of it has to do with recreational value. People will pay an outrgeous amount of money just so they can shoot doves. Some of it has to do with getting as far away from smart growth as you can afford.

    For people like my wife, its just home.

    RH

  24. Anonymous Avatar

    “RH continues to claim that all development costs are loaded onto the backs of new residents.”

    I never said that.

    My claim is only that we do not know what a fair allocation of costs is. We don’t know how much of our current problems are because of previous underfunding and or deferred maintenance.

    I’m not willing to accept the part-time non-professional planning board as a disinterested arbriter.

    If the developers / buyers contributed 100 acres for a school site, they contributed over $600,000. Those new schools gets loaded on the backs of existing residents who continue to have children as well as new residients.

    I never said that all the costs gets loaded on the back of new residents, just that we have no idea what a fair allocation is, considering all the costs and benefits.

    Despite your thinking, there is a fari amount of controversy on this point.

    I also claim that if costs were the issue, we should just post a price and shut up.

    We know that isn’t going to happen because costs aren’t the issue. The real issue is to prevent development so we can continue to enjoy the benefits of uncrowded conditions that we never paid for.

    That is why we hide so much of the cost in bureaucracy and delays: we know tht time and aggravation costs developers more than money.

    We are a thieving bunch of know-nothings, liars, and hypocrites, let’s face it. I say we, because I don’t want development any more than the next guy: I just don’t want to be stuck with an outsize portion of the cost of preventing it.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar

    “Every new child costs about twice what the tax for new home brings in.”

    And what about the children that are born to existing homes?

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    “The whole game is to get the growth from housing and to evade the infrastructure fallout.”

    That’s only half of the game.

    The other half is to avoid the growth and not pay the costs of doing so.

    RH

  27. E M Risse Avatar

    Three Notes, Two for Groveton:

    I knew I have encuntered Molotch before 2000 when we published The Shape of the Future. Then I discovered the problem.

    The first time Jim spelled “Molotch” in the original post, he put in two “Ls”.

    When I searched for this spelling, Acrobat gave me nothing. We do cite Molotch in Chapter 27. We will expand on it in “The Estate Matrix.”

    Molotch’s work is one of those rare items that grows “better” over time. Now that I have gotten time to read it, I recall when I first saw it in the late 70s I thought it was radical and off base. Now it is just common sense and, as Jim has pointed out, very worth reading with care.

    Groveton:

    “My biggest complaint with the VA state legislature is the strict adherence to Dillon’s Rule. Virginia is one of only 5 states that has no constitutional provision for home rule. The US Constitution granted certain rights ot the states. One of those rights was the right to modify the state constitution. 45 smart states have availed themselves of that right and legally ceded some authoritiy to municipalities. Virginia is among the 5 that have not ceded anything.”

    The interesting thing is that from a human settlement pattern perspective, it does not make any difference.

    Look at an air photo of the National Capital Subregion and tell me the difference at the Cluster, Neighborhood, Village, Community and multi-Community scales between the distribution of uses in Virginia (Dillon Rule) and Maryland (Home Rule).

    There is almost none.

    At the Unit and Dooryard scale there is some you can see with a magnifying glass but it does not turn up in VMT or KH. This includes what actually exists in Montgomery Counties Ag Protection Zone from power plants to 10 acre lots.

    There is a Brookings study (“Is Home Rule the Answer? Clarifying the Influence of Dillion’s Ruile on Growth Management”) that comes to the same conclusion on different grounds.

    The bottom line is that no state, not Hawaii, not Vermont, not Oregon, not Minnesota, no state has evolved an governace structure to support functional and sustainable settlement patterns.

    Virginia may be “worst” (it was in the early 70s one of the “best”) but the differences are not worth bragging about.

    “As for high technology lobbying the Fed – the high tech companies are among the most hapless lobbyists in the country. The one exception is the phone companies (company? – are we back to one yet?). They have more lobbying savvy on a bad afternoon than the software industry has on a good year.”

    Microsoft has done quite well. And not as well in the EU as in US of A.

    I am not saying
    that software has the clout of entertainment, health, cotton, sugar, etc., just that the problem exists at all levels, not just at the state and not just in Virginia.

    Fundamental Change anyone?

    EMR

  28. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “I never said that all the costs gets loaded on the back of new residents, just that we have no idea what a fair allocation is, considering all the costs and benefits.”

    What you said is tantamount to advocating that nothing be done other than to have existing residents continue to pick up the costs – because that is the way it has been done in the past prior to proffers.

    It’s also not very controversial in most Home Rule states where impact fees for new development are the norm.

    Whether you trust the way a locality allocates the costs does not make it wrong.. except in your mind.

    When proffer and impact fees are implemented.. they are first proposed and have supporting info showing costs – and the development community and citizens and landowners are free to submit their comments.

    What you and the development community objects to – is the right of the locality to do the fees in the first place.

    The discussion about “how to figure it out” is little more than a diversion from the central question.

    And the bottom line is that in Virginia and across the country, localities are legally empowered to charge fees and do.

    Using your logic.. water and sewer is “unfair” to new folks because it used to be that water and sewer were “included” for free.

    The reason it is no longer “free” is because it never was and if you don’t charge what it costs then existing residents get to pay for all growth – no matter what the rate of growth is.

    In other words..using your logic, the faster a locality grows, the higher the taxes should be on existing residents.

    There is one gigantic reason that this logic is seriously flawed and it’s called – elections.

    Proffers were actually thought up by Til Hazel – a developer. Did you know that?

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “And what about the children that are born to existing homes?”

    this is actually the essence of the debate.

    A community that is self-growing has a natural fiscal mechanism in that all residents who live there put into a capital fund to build new schools and roads as they grow.

    When the growth rate is 1 or 2%, residents can cover the costs of growth with reasonable annual allocations of property tax dollars into capital funds.

    When the growth rate exceeds that amount and it is primarily due to an influx of commuters of child-bearing age – looking for homes to raise kids (as opposed to young singles or empty nesters looking for more modest, smaller places to live)..

    .. it puts a tremendous strain on the existing community – because the schools have to be built with Up-front money.

    A thousand new homes in 6 months needs a new school NOW. You cannot “save up” for it.

    In my county a new high school cost 100 million and the tax rate generates a million on one penny.

    Think about how long it will take to raise enough money for that new school; it would take years so the county has to go to the bond market.

    and then realize that the next year.. ANOTHER school is needed, then another, and another
    and county’s like people have credit limits… on what they can borrow.

    At some point.. if the BOS keeps raising the property taxes to pay for these schools.. quess what happens?

    Throwing out the BOS does not solve the problem.. it actually generates chaos if the BOS terms are not staggered. Newly elected thrown into the fire.

    It’s not like existing residents don’t already pay a substantial part of the costs of growth. The operational cost of each school seat is about 10K EVERY YEAR. The average home with a kid comes pays about 1/2 of the cost of educating that kid. The rest is picked up by folks who don’t have kids, many retired on fixed incomes.

    Proffers are a one-shot deal – to get the school built. They come nowhere near the actual cost of the school in the first place and none of the proffers apply to the annual operational costs.

    Proffers are just as fair as charging for water/sewer hookups because they work exactly the same way.

    The premise is that capital facilities are needed for water/sewer and those that need it should share the costs while everyone who is already on water and sewer pay for the operational costs.

  30. Groveton Avatar

    RH:

    Downzoning beats me. I’ve never heard of it before. I guess that’s what happens when you grow up and live in Fairfax County.

    EMR:

    I don’t see Maryland as the issue. Maybe Home Rule didn’t work so well there – although Montgomery County seems a lot more organized and effective than its twin across the river – Fairfax County.

    My point is that someone has to be held accountable for land use decisions in Virginia. Given the current governance organization of Virginia I think that “someone” is the state legislature. There is onlt so much a county BoS can do in a state without home rule. Just recently, Jim Bacon posted a coloumn about Gov. Gilmore not being able to muster the political support to give certain zoning authority to localities. Given that – we must hold the state legislature responsible for the land use mess in many parts of Virginia. No?

  31. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Groveton: downzoning is when a locality reduces the density allowed on land.. say from one unit per acre to one unit per 5 acres.

    re: Home Rule:

    read this:

    The Montgomery County Council agreed in preliminary votes yesterday to increase a development fee for schools and began to tighten rules on school crowding but delayed major decisions on tax increases and measuring congestion.

    …For a public elementary school, for instance, the fee would increase from $12,500 to $19,514, far less than the $32,524 recommended by the Planning Board.

    …underlying concept is to promote ways to make newcomers and new development pay for their impact and slow down the pace when services are overburdened.

    …failed to truly acknowledge that new development is only responsible for less than 15 percent of congestion.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/30/AR2007103002053_pf.html

    this article illustrates that Md, a home rule state, has very similiar issues with regard to development and infrastructure – as Virginia, a Dillon rule state has.

    Md has impact fees. Va has proffers. Both are learning that their current fee schedules for new development, do not, in fact, cover all the costs and they are struggling with… the tradeoffs between increasing the fees to pay for more of the cost.. verses making housing so expensive that only the wealthy can afford it.

    When I see Md.. a Home Rule state will much more local ability to increase impact fees.. having similiar issues as a Dillon Rule state, I’m wondering if the problem has anything at all to do with Dillon.

    In fact, if you talk to Va GA legislators they will tell you that no one forces any Va locality to accept growth – that the BOS has to explicitly approve virtually all of the growth proposals.

    The problems come.. when the BOS approves growth but in doing so, has no plan to deal with the infrastructure consequences of their decisions in many cases.

    I will say that in my county – after the 2003 elections – that not a single proposal comes in front of them without an infrastructure plan and proffers if developers want to go any further than the presentation of their project.

    And, in fact, several major CDAs have been created by developers as conditions of approval in the last two years.

    This tells me that there ARE ways that Va counties can manage growth – even with the Dillon rule.

    The counties run by pro-growth elites in Va.. choose NOT to insist on infrastructure concurrent with development and then they blame the state for “tying their hands” and VDOT for not fixing their roads.

    It’s a ruse and unfortunately most voters do not figure it out until it’s clear that no infrastructure planning was done.

    NoVa has the perfect labaratory on this issue with Loudon and Facquier Counties.

    The folks in Facquier have proven without a doubt that it is very possible in Va – a Dillon rule state to say “no”.

    Loudon has proved that they considered a VDOT review of the infrastructure consequences of their Comp Plan to be “interference” – while out the other side of their mouths – they hammer VDOT for not building enough roads to keep up with BOS land-use decisions.

    It’s the localities guys – not the GA nor the Dillon Rule.

    and here’s the fun part.

    If you cannot trust a locality to plan properly.. how would we expect them to plan on a Regional Basis? (which is Darrells view also I believe).

    Developers must have a state-sponsored taxpayer-funded road-building machine. Without it, local citizens catch on to what is really going on way too quick…

  32. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    another article in WaPo today about Montgomery County Md, (a home rule state) and their continuing challenges with paying for infrastructure needs associated with growth and development.

    Like Loudoun… the governing council is closely split on the issue of raising the development/impact fees.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/03/AR2007110300334.html?hpid=topnews

    the pro-growth folks are per usual predicting bad outcomes if fees are raised..

    “business leaders and some slow-growth activists that elements of the plan do little to solve traffic woes or school crowding and could hurt the local economy.”

    The current policy includes provisions promoted four years ago by then-County Executive Douglas M. Duncan (D) and several council allies known as the “End Gridlock” slate. They became a lightning rod for critics who say the county is growing too quickly without sufficient services in place.

    So we have a Home Rule county that ostensibly is not hobbled with the Dillon rule thatVirginia localities are – dealing with issues that very much like Loudoun County, Virginia.

  33. Anonymous Avatar

    “Downzoning beats me. I’ve never heard of it before. I guess that’s what happens when you grow up and live in Fairfax County.”

    Groveton:

    My wife’s property has been effectively downzoned three times. I can tell you it hurts. I can’t imagine what would cause me to build at what was once the maximum allowable rate, but my current guess is that the opportunity cost is on the order of $33 million dollars.

    It’s a heck of a price to pay to avoid damaging what someone else thinks is their property.

    Even if I choose to farm the place, that kind of value makes it a lot easier to borrow money.

    The county claims that for every home not built they save $2700 a year. My response is, fine, you pay me the interest on the money you claim I’m saving you, and I’ll shut up. Otherwise, you are stealing.

    I also own proerty in Fairfax, so I bleed for you, too. It’s exactly and JB described: I suffer from land use schizophrenia.

    I think it gives me a unique perspective.

    RH

  34. Anonymous Avatar

    “Look at an air photo of the National Capital Subregion and tell me the difference at the Cluster, Neighborhood, Village, Community and multi-Community scales between the distribution of uses in Virginia (Dillon Rule) and Maryland (Home Rule).

    There is almost none.”

    As much as I might disagree with EMR (and his CNVCM-C description), here is an observation that appears to be irrefutable.

    Good call.

    RH

  35. Anonymous Avatar

    “no state has evolved an governance structure …”

    Not too surprising. Governance structures are designed to be self-sustaining, and not evolving. We love the status quo, even when it isn’t good for us. As in —

    “You have no right to do anything I don’t allow you to do.”

    RH

  36. Anonymous Avatar

    Maryland is in special session now. I heard a sound bite in which one person (Duncan?) claimed that under the Governors plan 83% of the new revenues would come from Montgomery County.

    Sound familiar?

    RH

  37. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “You have no right to do anything I don’t allow you to do.”

    … the “I” being the government protecting others from having their rights taken.. by those who have the philosophy “what’s mine is mine and what’s your is also mine if I want it”.

  38. E M Risse Avatar

    Groveton:

    I think you may be on the road and/or not applying you usual careful consideration to posts:

    “Downzoning beats me. I’ve never heard of it before. I guess that’s what happens when you grow up and live in Fairfax County.”

    One of the biggest political dust-ups in 20th Century Fiarfax was the Occaquan Downzoning to create lifestyle parcels in 83,000 acres.

    Your home Beta Village (Great Falls) cannot evolve to be an Alpha Village because of past Downzonings. (Yes, I owe you a summary of how to evolve an Alpha Village with bike paths. That is a long way off but one of the first steps will be to reverse a lot of Downzonings.

    “I don’t see Maryland as the issue. Maybe Home Rule didn’t work so well there – although Montgomery County seems a lot more organized and effective than its twin across the river – Fairfax County.

    “My point is that someone has to be held accountable for land use decisions in Virginia. Given the current governance organization of Virginia I think that “someone” is the state legislature.”

    In a democracy with a market economy the blame stops with the citizens.

    In order to maintain a democracy with a market economy the citizens need to take back control.

    “There is only so much a county BoS can do in a state without home rule.”

    Both Larry Gross and the Brookings Study say this is not true. The Dillon Rule is a convenient scape goat for those who want to support Business As Usual. Getting rid of it would eliminate an excuse, not solve any known problem.

    “Just recently, Jim Bacon posted a coloumn about Gov. Gilmore not being able to muster the political support to give certain zoning authority to localities.”

    Did you mean Gov. Gilmore? He never tried to do anything like this as far as I recall.

    “Given that – we must hold the state legislature responsible for the land use mess in many parts of Virginia. No?”

    See above. The problem is not that simple.

    EMR

  39. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    hmmm.. well then who shall we hold accountable for Montgomery County’s problems in home-rule Md?

    It appears to me that Montgomery County has some growth control measures that Va Counties do not have including de facto moratoriums which I believe is the equivalent of what Virginia calls Adequate Public Facilities but using that power does not seem to have been effective because they are now in the midst of substantially raising their development fees.

    In other words… “waiting for the infrastructure to catch up” doesn’t seem to have worked…

    so now the plan is to collect higher fees from new development – a tacit admission that the current fee structure does not pay for enough infrastructure to maintain parity with regard to school and roads level of services.

    And it’s not like Montgomery’s taxes on existing residents is not high enough either as they are among the more heavily taxed in the region I believe.

  40. Anonymous Avatar

    “And the bottom line is that in Virginia and across the country, localities are legally empowered to charge fees and do.”

    Yes, they are legally empowerd to charge fees and do. The problem is that it is NOT the bottom line. The politically empowered establishment is free to impose any fees they like, including fees in the form of bureaucracy and delay. They can do it based on whatever they claim the bottom line is, even if it is far from reality.

    Yes, I knew that Til Hazel proposed fees: he understands that development is a two way street. But it is only a two way street as long as the fees are representaive of real costs.

    I maintain that under the current political climate, no one knows what the real costs are. It is far too easy to make any claim you can politically enforce. This makes it easy to make claims that actually hurt us all.

    I agree that there is a time and place for the user pays philosophy, but what we have now is a situation in which there is NO cost assessed for using the ability to say NO.

    RH

  41. Anonymous Avatar

    “… the “I” being the government protecting others from having their rights taken.. by those who have the philosophy “what’s mine is mine and what’s your is also mine if I want it”.”

    Which is exactly the arument I have been trying to make.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar

    The folks in Facquier have proven without a doubt that it is very possible in Va – a Dillon rule state to say “no”.

    What they haven’t proven is that they are better off as a result.

    See my previous comments on the income and personal wealth of Loudoun Residents vs Fauquier residents. Depending on how you look at it, either Loudoun residents are better off (after developer profits) or else Fauquier residents are willing to acept the difference as the cost of conservation.

    In Fauquier, the current mood is to try to attract new business in order to take the ever increasing load off of the existing residents who have no way to thin the expense without new residents. But, they have spent so long in discouraging business, that now they need to make an extra effor to overcome the previous reputation that they so carefully nourished.

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar

    “the development community and citizens and landowners are free to submit their comments.”

    I’ve been to meetings and watched what happens. Whenever the applicant makes a comment or claim that does not meet the politically correct criteria of those runing the meeting, eyes roll and ugly faces are made.

    You can make all the comments you like, but that doesn’t mean the powers that be have to listen, or care.

    In the end, you may have to go to court. When Home Depot came to Warrenton, they simply bypassed all the hearings and went to court.

    Citizens groups cried foul because they felt their “public input” was being bypassed.

    The court hearing took ten minutes.
    Home Depot has the clout and the value proposition to get to court. But most land use issues will never see a court because they either do not have standing, or because they are not “ripe”, meaning they have not exahuated all of their (interminable and expensive) administrative options.

    The average guy is playing against a stacked deck. Home Depot got lucky, and they have plenty of money.

    RH

  44. Anonymous Avatar

    “In order to maintain a democracy with a market economy the citizens need to take back control.”

    I believe citizens have far too much control, because they can say NO without any fair assessment of the costs involved.

    There is no (readily evident) cost involved in using the power of saying NO. They do not have to come to a hearing having already spent a hundred thousand dollars or so.

    RH

  45. Anonymous Avatar

    “so now the plan is to collect higher fees from new development – a tacit admission that the current fee structure does not pay for enough infrastructure to maintain parity with regard to school and roads level of services.”

    Exactly the Point I have been trying to make. The current fee structure does not (and has not) provide enough funds, so we’ll get it from the new guys.

    RH

  46. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: new business to help citizens pay the costs of growth..

    … is a scam…

    businesses do not pay taxes.

    they pass them on to their customers.

    the tax money generated by businesses is money taken from customers that has been incorporated into the selling price.

    This scam comes from the same folks who claim that growth can pay for itself.. by having a 70/30 mix of commercial to residential.

    Anyone who believes that more business will lower their total tax bill (which includes the things you purchase) is a turnip.

    When Home Depot comes to town, it merely becomes the latest tax collector.

  47. Anonymous Avatar

    You are finally catching on. What goes around comes around. All of it. If you think you are not paying for somethin you get, the price is probably hidden, but it is still there.

    Where do those customers live? In homes, but we claim that homes don’t pay.

    All tax money comes from cash flow in the end. I pay my real estate taxes with cash, not with real estate. I get cash from a business that pays me, and they get cash from customers. More homes, more businesses, more cash, more tax money.

    If you don’t have enough money for the public things we need, either promote more cash flow or charge higher tax rates, or learn to do without.

    Now all we need is an unambiguous way to make it clear to the politicians what trades we are willing to make. I suggest we write them on our tax forms. We might not like the answer, but it is what it is, and we can get smarter next year.

    RH

  48. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”More homes, more businesses, more cash, more tax money. “

    more homes = more infrastructure,

    more schools, more roads, more libraries, more ems, more police..

    MORE MONEY for infrastructure and LESS money for furniture and granite countertops = less money for those who make a living selling “stuff”.

    So the folks who make their living selling “stuff” would prefer to see the infrastructure “stuff” not divert money that could be spent on their “stuff”.

    So, if the guys who sell “stuff” get elected to office – they’ll approve more rooftops so that more “stuff” can be sold and tell the folks frustrated by overcrowded schools and congested highways that more businesses selling “stuff” will “help pay for growth”.

    It’s a clear choice. Do you spend the money on having better, less crowded schools and less congested roads or do you spend it on granite countertops?

    guess which choice business likes?

  49. Anonymous Avatar

    “MORE MONEY for infrastructure and LESS money for furniture and granite countertops = less money for those who make a living selling “stuff”.”

    Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what the ratios and paybacks are.

    “So the folks who make their living selling “stuff” would prefer to see the infrastructure “stuff” not divert money that could be spent on their “stuff”.”

    they are kidding themselvs if they

    a) think this is a zero sum game

    and

    b) think they can benefit by avoiding their costs or shifting costs to others.

    Anyway, what is your point? That business is the irresponsible pro-growth demon that causes tax increases for the people whose salaries they pay??

    We can’t collect more taxes than the salaries allow, business can’t make jobs if we won’t let them make the jobs profitably (and we tax the profits too, so we have our own interests at heart). Anything business does is going to have some benefits and cause some problems.

    Those problems are unavoidable.
    Every business activity causes some externalities. There is no activity that does not come with economic, environmental and social costs and benefits, not even organic gardening.

    All we can do is negotiate such that we wind up with the maximum collective benefit for the least collective cost while causing the least social injustice.

    We think we can set maximim levels of some costs, which we do by setting stream loading and other discharge limits. But, once we reach those limits, other costs can continue to go up.

    Once that happens we should auction off the right to discharge (within the discharge limits). Those that have the highest benefit to cost ratios will be the ones that can afford to bid the highest amount for discharge rights. This will result in the highest discharge of benefits to the community (If you will) and the highest payment for the external costs of getting those benefits.

    It is exactly analogous to your argument for HOT lanes. You auction off the right to access by raising the tolls to adjust the flow. The people that have the highest ratio of benefits to cost will be the ones who can pay the most.

    All you have to do now is decide what the flow will be. You can set the tolls so high that every car can travel 60 with no problem, or you can lower the toll until cars can only travel 55.

    You get the most cars through at around 35, but you may not get the maximum toll collection at that rate. Your previous high rollers will not save as much of their precious time resources, but you get a lot more riff-raff rollers who save a lot of their resources but at a lower value.

    The maximum community value for the HOT lane is when you get the maximum sum of tolls collected and dollar value of time saved.

    Plus or Minus, of course, the cost/benefit of extra pollution caused by letting more/fewer cars through in order to get the rest of the maximum community benefit.

    Of course, we don’t HAVE to do anything. We can let them walk or stay home.

    WE just can’t do it for free.

    RH

  50. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    how about tellng me the number of places whose business economies are booming but the infrastructure is overloaded?

    Why is that?

    Have you ever noticed who wants the cross-medians on 4-lanes and who does not?

    Have you ever noticed who cries “foul” when they close the cross medians to stop them from screwing up traffic?

    Have you ever noticed who wants the curb cuts.. that will screw up the traffic flow?

    This is what I’m talking about.

    It’s a matter of priorities in terms of whether enough money for infrastructure is collecting verses not doing so and having that money go for granite countertops.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  51. Anonymous Avatar

    “It’s a matter of priorities in terms of whether enough money for infrastructure is collecting verses not doing so and having that money go for granite countertops.

    You can’t have it both ways.”

    That is idiotic. You can’t have it both ways if you see everything as you do: confrontational and adversarial, win or lose.

    The situation you describe obtains when one side or the other gets an advantage over the other.

    But we all know there is such a thing as the sum being more of the parts. The way we get the most granite counters AND the most infrastructure AND the most environmental protection AND …..
    Is to make sure we have an agreed upon method of accurarately and dispassionately measuring the results of the priorities we set.

    As long as that means is based on I’ve got mine and you’ve got no rights, we have no hope.

    RH

    I notice you studiosly ignored the analogy to HOT lanes.

  52. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Priorities means you make choices.

    You cannot have it all and that’s the point.

    What exactly do you think priorities do if not choose one thing over another?

    I did not respond to your HOT lane analogy because it made no sense and I wasn’t sure what your point was.

    HOT lanes ARE an example of what I am saying. HOT Lanes ARE “user pays” for the infrastructure that is needed.

    You may have noticed that the pro-growth folks are not wild about HOT lanes and neither is the Chamber of Commerce in many areas.

    Now why do you think that is?

    It’s because the money that might have been spent for granite countertops is now going to be spent on infrastructure instead – which is what it should have been spent for to begin with.

    No.. I’m not talking about countertops for the rich.

    I’m talking about the middle class who have a choice between buying “more house” or using some of that money to pay for infrastructure so that their commute is less congested.

    This is not about win or lose but it IS adversarial because many of the pro-growth folks are just downright irresponsible about planning for adequate infrastructure.

    It’s just not their “thing” and they’d rather see landowners and businesses make a “profit” even if ordinary citizens are stuck in traffic every day.

    The pro-growth folks don’t see the purpose of roads to benefit workers and make their commuting lives less miserable. Instead, they use roads as economic development engines.

    The pro-growth folks are at least partially responsible for VDOT going broke by prioritizing road money for economic development.

    HOT lanes will dramatically change this dynamic and the pro-growth folks know it.

    People might well choose to spend $2500 a year in tolls for a less-congested ride – instead of granite countertops.

    Basically you’ve got two groups of businesses fighting for the same dollar.

    One sells “stuff” for houses and the other sells “infrastructure” and the beauty of this is that it is a market and people DO have a choice now.

    HOT lanes are not an academic theory. They are real and they are market-based and of course we are all entitled to our opinion about them but the beauty is that ordinary people get to chose rather than have imposed on them arbitrary infrastructure choices made by someone else using their money (taxes).

  53. Anonymous Avatar

    “In situations of risk and uncertainty, the appropriate comparison is between the costs of the safety action and the value of the expected benefits. If the expected benefits to society of greater safety exceed the expected costs to the company, decisions to invest in safety are efficient. Similarly, it is not socially worthwhile to make safety investments when the expected societal benefits are exceeded by the costs once all social consequences are fully recognized and valued. One may, nevertheless, wish to compensate those who suffer the damages costs, even if the risk level is efficient, but this is a distributional and fairness issue, ….”

  54. Anonymous Avatar

    “I did not respond to your HOT lane analogy because it made no sense and I wasn’t sure what your point was.”

    You really don’t get the point then, because hot lanes, which you favor, are pretty nearly an exact anaolgy to your stream example.

    Once you put the hot lanes in you have a choice of how much “biological oxygen demand” you want to pur in that stream.

    With a little experimentation you can draw up some curves that show the amount of tolls collected vs the number of cars using the HOT lane (time of day and congestion in the other lanes factored in).

    Just as the cost of cleaning up the water before returning it to the stream is not linear, neither will be the curve of the tolls collected vs hot lane use.

    So the question is, do you manage the hot lanes for maximum tolls collected, maximum vehicle use or some other measure of best value to all?

    RH

  55. Anonymous Avatar

    “It’s because the money that might have been spent for granite countertops is now going to be spent on infrastructure instead – which is what it should have been spent for to begin with.”

    You might be right, but as it stands that is your opinion because we have no agreed upon method to determine what works best.

    You, for example, reject outright the accepted way of figuring out what works best, apparently because it allows for the minor possibility that your opinion might not be supported by facts.

    RH

  56. Anonymous Avatar

    If you think HOT lanes are not going to be supported by taxes, or otherwise affect how your money is spent, then you really don’t get it.

    RH

  57. Anonymous Avatar

    “As thinking and acting men, we grasp the concept of action. In grasping this concept we simultaneously grasp the closely correlated concepts of value, wealth, exchange, price, and cost. They are all necessarily implied
    in the concept of action, and together with them the concepts of valuing, scale of value and importance, scarcity and abundance, advantage and disadvantage, success, profit, and loss. The logical unfolding of all these concepts and categories in systematic derivation from the fundamental category of action and the demonstration of the necessary relations among them constitutes the first task of our science.”

    Ludwig von Mises

  58. Anonymous Avatar

    “WORKSHOP ON THE VALUE OF REDUCING THE RISK OF ILL-HEALTH OR A FATAL ILLNESS

    Health impacts are often a significant portion of the benefits of improvements in environmental quality. We know that, for example, air pollution can cause ill-health (morbidity) or can lead to fatal illnesses (mortality). However, we often cannot reduce risks to zero without incurring significant and disproportionate costs.

    Individuals try to strike a balance between risk and costs (financial or otherwise) for themselves. Society needs to seek such a balance as well. If we did not, then we would use resources inefficiently: for example, we might spend money on reducing air pollution that would save more lives if spent on health care.

    If we seek to balance the costs of a policy against its benefits, then we must compare the benefit of reductions in risk against costs. Any decision in this context means placing an implicit monetary value on health benefits. Decision-making will be easier and become more consistent if we have a monetary estimate of the value of health benefits.

    The monetary value represents the strengths of society’s preferences. It is consistent with people’s observed actions. For example, while no one would trade their life for a sum of money, most people will be prepared to choose between safety equipment with different prices and offering different levels of safety. We can use these values for small changes in risk when assessing the benefits of policies that also deliver small changes in risk over large populations. “

    And you still think “my theory” is bizarre?

    RH

  59. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    comparing HOT Lanes to Water pollution ????

    The way that HOT lanes work – results in LESS pollution because what you do is charge the polluters MORE for polluting.

    If you applied HOT lanes to water pollution all polluters would be charged and the higher polluters would be charged more.

    and the biggest polluters would be put out of business because the cost of pollution would exceed their profits OR they find a way to make their product without polluting like many chemical companies that used to pollute are now doing.

    “Avtex Fibers is a shuttered
    rayon fiber plant located on the
    South Fork of the Shenandoah
    River in Front Royal, Virginia,

    Operations at the plant, for the
    better part of 70 years have
    resulted in massive
    contamination of soil, surface
    water, and groundwater water
    at, under, and around the site.

    organics, phenols, and metals,arsenic and lead and PCBs.
    in ground and surface water.

    Now you want to know why they were polluting?

    …”the company had fallen behind
    textile-industry environmental and worker safety standards, partly because of the heavy debt
    load carried by the company since its acquisition from FMC Corp. Substantial reductions in the
    company’s spending had been made to pay for the deal, and to bring to profitability the group of
    four additional money-losing textile mills”

    http://www.movementech.org/gis/pdf/avtexreport.pdf

    THIS is the ROI that you keep advocating and you keep saying that it should be up to the polluter to determine if they should be able to pollute.

    This is what you seem to be advocating and here is an example of why it does not work.

    And do you know what they made?

    Rayon. Now do you think no other company makes Rayon or if they do that they pollute like this company did?

    This is what happens when you let the polluter decide and this is why all the “common sense” theories that you promote are little more than long discredited ideas.

    Some companies now have zero pollution. they re-process their wastes into benign and useful products. These are the same companies that used to claim that they “had no choice” but to pollute.

    give it up RH. Your ideas are 50 years old – and thoroughly discredited from actual experience.

  60. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    It’s companies like Avtax that spawned he environmental movement… in fact… you know.. the same folks that you claim to share the “environmentalist” name tag with but don’t buy what they stand for.

    and what they stand for is to not allow companies like Avtex to operate no many how many “common sense” theories are advanced by some who would actually argue “in theory” that Avtex pollution should have been grandfathered and/or compensated for being shut down.

    Do you want to hear another one?

    How about Allied Chemical and Kepone on the Appomattox and James Rivers?

    Fess up RH.. how can you be so obviously wrong on so much of this and still refuse to admit it?

  61. Anonymous Avatar

    You didn’t answer the question.

    Given that you have a HOT lane, do you set the tolls for maximum revenue, or maximum traffic throughput?

    After you answer that, we can talk about Kepone.

    What I’m looking for is a consistent argument, and I don’t care which way it falls.

    Your move.

    RH

  62. Anonymous Avatar

    There is no company that operates and produces zero pollution. It is impossible. If it were possible we could have perpetual motion mahines.

    If you think that zero pollution possible, then it explains the rest of your faulty ideas.

    RH

  63. Anonymous Avatar

    Now you want to know why they were polluting?

    Officials knew for decades that AVTEC was polluting. they looked the other way because a) they needed the jobs, and b) if the company shut down they would get stuck with the cleanup.

    Even after they shut down, AVTEC was reopened with a special grant because they were the only producer of a defense critical fiber. Then a new plant was funded and built to produce the fibre someplace else. I haven’t looked, but I’ll bet it pollutes, too.

    AVTEC was a disaster, but there was plenty of blame to go around.

    Yes, we know for a fact that industry has cried wolf and projected higher costs than ultimately developed. We know for a fact that in some cases new regulations allowed innovative companies to find a way to meet the regs and crush their slower cousins. We also know that some innovative companies have deliberately proposed new regs so that they could crush thier smaller cousins. We know, in fact that the next round of regs WILL be more expensive, and industry WILL most likely be more accurate next time.

    We also know that at least some of the environmental benefits claimed are highly exxagerated. We know that they are based on willingness to pay studies that come up with numbers like your $2500 example above. We also know that a guy with a $60,000 income can only make good on a relatively small number of willingness to pay bets when they are of that magnitude.

    There are problems on both sides of the equation, and plenty of blame to go around. We do need to set priorities, but you don’t get to set them all, or claim that others numbers are necessarily flawed, simply based on the source.

    RH

  64. Anonymous Avatar

    In the EU they have adopted, by international agreement, a set of standards for the valaue of various kinds of morbidity and mortality, with associated ranges of error (that’t the “fuzzy” part of my argument).

    If an environmental intitiative is proposed and the cost of it exceeds those standards, then it either isn’t going to be approved, or it is gong to be approved in spite of the recommmendation that it is not cost effective.

    RH

  65. Anonymous Avatar

    “Environmental economics [is] a market-based approach to achieving a sustainable economy that integrates long-term economic growth, environmental quality and social fairness through innovative
    taxes, tax incentives, auctioned permits and other market-based mechanisms “•

    U.S. EPA

    “Environmental economics is concerned with the impact of the economy on the environment, the
    significance of the environment to the economy, and the appropriate way of regulating economic
    activity so that balance is achieved among environmental, economic and other social goals.”

    Charles Kolstad

  66. Anonymous Avatar

    What this argument boils down to is this:

    An environmentalist lives in a world of 100 percent ethics and 0% Economics: They are the Hindus of economics. Humans are equal to fish or fish are equal to humans and we have an absolute moral requirement to see to it that fish don’t have lesions, even if humans die inthe process: it is common sense. Humans have no right to injure another species, and no right to make a living at the expense of others, no right to make a living at all, in fact.

    An ecological economist lives in a world of 25% economics and 75% ethics. He believes that all of the economy has the environment as an underpining, that there is a maximum sustainable economy, and such an economy will accept some damage (fish lesions) as long as it is sustainable: there is no tipping point. The maximum sustainable economy means that many will die and the rest will live with much less.

    An environmental economist lives in a world that is 50% ethics and 50% economy. He believes that the ecological economist is ultimately right. However, deliberately moving to a sustainable economy now will mean that someone will have to decide who dies in order to reach sustainability. Millions will not live, let alone live as well in the meantime.

    He believes that price changes will ultimately result in an environmentally sustainable economy equivalent to that proposed by ecological economist, eventually. To him, fish lesions are an unfortunate but necessary fact that shows the prices are changing, and moving us towards a sustainable environment. In other words, whatever is left after we wreck what we have.

    The free market environmentalist lives in a world of 100% economy and zero ethics. He is the property rights advocate who believes the government has and always will fail at protectng the environment. He believes the free market is the best way to preserve the health and sustainability of the environment. He argues that when environmental property is owned and can be bought and sold, then its value will be recognized and it will be protected.

    The realities of production and consumption mean that this too will eventully resolve at the level of the sustainable economy postulated by ecological economists. I happen to believe that there is an element of Darwinism here: those that own and manage to protect the most environmental property will be the ones most likely to survive to see the sustainable economy.

    ————————-

    Fundamentally, each of these positions is founded on certain beliefs. As time goes by, we will discover more facts and move to new conditions we willsee whose beleifs tourn out to be more accurate, but we cannot now say that any of these beliefs is “wrong”.

    You and I agree on the economics of destruction: pollution is a subsidy. If the firm pays for coal but not for the use of clean water, management will be economical in its use of coal and wasteful in its use of water.

    We can adjust this problem with government action, but government action is inefficient, slow, and frequently ignored by enterprise. it is aslo subject to the problem of regulator capture, in which industry uses regulation to subdue its opponents.

    The COASE theorem says we should interanlize external costs – polluter pays- and taht will creae an incentive for enterprise to reduce those costs. this is done by emsiion fees, taxation, cap and trade plans and other devices.

    A variant is to turn environmental wealth into property rights so that the owners wll protect the environmental wealth and avoid the tragedy of the commons. Enron tried to do this by buying up water rights. The implementation of Property rights allows the government to raise revenues through taxation. The recent auctions of portions of the electromagnetic spectrum are an example. The nature conservancy operates in the property rights spectrum because it protects properties by buying them.

    ———————————

    Each of the positions described depend on beliefs, at its root. What I suggest is that such beliefs are anchors that prevent us from reaching the right conclusions. Those conclusions can be found by searching for universally valid rules, but we can never agree on them when we reject out of hand any rule proposed that is “not invented here”, because it comes form the enemy – the other guys.

    You just can’t stand it when someone is on your side and disagrees, or when they are not on your side and agree.

    RH

  67. Anonymous Avatar

    In Antonik v. Chamberlain, plaintiff sought to enjoin the owner of a private airport because of the noise it created. Court of Appeals Justice Arthur Doyle wrote:

    It is not everything in the nature of a nuisance which is prohibited. There are many acts which the owner of land may lawfully do, although it brings annoyance, discomfort, or injury to his neighbor. . . .

    People who live in organized communities must of necessity suffer some damage, in convenience and annoyance from their neighbors. From these annoyances, inconve niences and damages, they are generally compensated by the advantages incident to living in a civilized state.”

  68. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”Given that you have a HOT lane, do you set the tolls for maximum revenue, or maximum traffic throughput?”

    HOT lanes are about the same thing as a theatre with a certain number of seats and more people standing in line than there are seats.

    Congestion pricing is also employed in Airlines and other fields when demand exceeds supply.

    It has virtually nothing to do with how pollution is regulated.

    Yes.. we have a lot of demand to pollute but the law focuses FIRST on what the standard is for a healthy environment – before we talk about anything else.

    We can and do allocate pollution “credits” and I do support that concept but the idea that someone is entitled to pollute and gradfathered if they already pollute and entitled to compensation if other do not agree to let them pollute

    … is totally bogus… and you know it.

    No one is entitled to pollute.

    Admit it

    We have permitted pollution.

    The permit is NOT based on the polluters idea of ROI nor their idea that they are entitled and others owe them compensation if they are denied a permit.

    This IS a bizarre concept.

    Admit it.

    I don’t mind debating the relative merits of how we deal with pollution … but debating concepts that no one accepts except the “fringe” is not very productive in my mind.

    I’ll go along with credits as long as you admit that there is a finite allocation.. to start with.

    This is a significant departure from past concepts where each pipe had to meet certain thresholds – no matter how many pipes.

    The standard now is that there is indeed a cumulative impact and that there actually is a limit to how many pipes there can be.

    The only way to get more pipes is to further restrict what comes out of each pipe – existing and future.

    This is the way it works…

    this is no polluter ROI, no compensation, no grandfathering..

    these are discredited concepts no longer given any credibility by not only environmentalists, but the law also and the regulators who enforce the law.

    as I said.. I don’t mind debating the merits of the policies but arguing concepts that are “way out there” .. I dunno..

  69. Anonymous Avatar

    Its a simple queston: Do you manage the HOT lane for max revenue or Max throughput?

    That is not way out there. It is a simple question, but how you answer it affects how you should answer the same question concerning a strem with limited capacity.

    There are literally thousands of people out there working these problems, and being paid by the government to do it.

    They don’t seem to think it is bizarre.

    So, what’s the answer? Cash or throughput?

    RH

  70. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Successful HOT lanes will be managed to provide value for a fee and customers decide if the value if worth the fee.

    If someone tries to manage it for max throughput or max revenue without keeping the customer in mind, there will be problems.

    Next question… 🙂

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