Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Kalahari, Central Park and Fredericksburg Tax Revenues

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

Outside of the Rail-to-Tysons heavy rail debate, the most fascinating development battle taking place in Virginia at the moment is in the Fredericksburg region. The City of Fredericksburg, which is experiencing major fiscal stress at the moment, is pushing development of the Celebrate Virginia project just off Interstate 95 as a way to expand the tax base.

The developer, the Silver Companies, is touting the project as a net plus to the region because attractions like the National Slavery Museum and the Kalahari waterpark would bring in thousands upon thousands of visitors, who will fill city coffers with sales and lodging taxes. Critics contend that the project will incur millions of dollars in tax breaks, public subsidies and other costs — many of them hidden — and could never stand on its own.

Today in the Free Lance-Star, reporter Emily Battle underlines City Council’s motivation for backing the project. Revenue from the sales tax, the city’s second largest source of taxes, is down. In November sales tax revenue fell short of $900,000 — the first time November revenues had dipped below $1 million since 2003 before Central Park, a massive retail project at the intersection of I-95 and Rt. 3, opened. That project, ironically, also was developed by the Silver Companies amidst considerable controversy and billed as the city’s financial savior.

Noting that the City has spent $30.2 million so far this year but has brought in only $25.5 million so far, the Fredericksburg City Manager is implementing a hiring freeze. Under the circumstances, some councilmen argue that the City needs the Kalahari waterpark all the more.

Before betting the farm on Kalahari, however, City Council might be well advised to revisit the deal they cut with the Silver Companies to develop Central Park. Back when the deal was being inked, what sales tax revenues did the City expect Central Park to yield in fiscal 2008? How do those forecasts compare to reality? If Central Park tax revenues are falling short of expectations, what assurance is there that Celebrate Virginia projections can be relied upon?

Just asking.

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  1. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m hoping Mr. Kelly is still reading because he can find that info much easier…

    ..but I would point out that it appears that there are Performance Standards and that the amount of the incentives are tied to actual performance.

    and so .. it is a shared risk…

    even at that – there is still not a uniform/agreed citizen vision of what kind and type of growth that the Fredericksburg Area should embrace.

    Fredericksburg is not unique but I think it’s safe to say that places like Martinsville and Wise county, etc would not be quite so rigidly particular and more accepting of growth in general.

    I’m not justifying accepting any/all growth that comes down the pike – just pointing out that folks in this area see it not as a dearth of any growth and more of “we can choose so let’s pick what truly benefits us”.

    I’m actually in that crowd and if this water park was proposed 10 miles in the rural areas away from I-95 .. I would be opposed to it but it’s not and the obvious question is .. do we really think that land adjacent to I-95 will remain “parkland” or be dozens of 4-story Homeland Defense buildings chock full of folks making 100K a year and walking to where they live?

    In other words… should that area be a 3000 resident multi-use mixed development (as if we can decide what kind of development it can be but lets pretend).

    I have zero doubt that if Homeland Security came down to Fredericksburg and wanted office space for 5000 jobs.. that this developer would .. be having wet dreams along with everyone else in the area…

    so.. basically.. I think at least some of the opposition wants to “wait” until that offer is on the table.

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “….would bring in thousands upon thousands of visitors, who will fill city coffers with sales and lodging taxes.”

    Sales taxes, maybe. Lodging taxes, doubtful.

    Simply ask yourself what % of the state population is within two, three, or four hours drive from F-burg. If these folks visited they would likely drive back the same day.

    I am 2 hours from F-burg and I would drive home if I went to such a park…..and probably stop and eat someplace other than F-burg to get food so that’s even less revenue for the city.

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “we can choose so let’s pick what truly benefits us”.

    Read as “We have a right to control what other people do with their property and their money for our benefit, but we have no obligation for their downside.”

    RH

  4. Matt Kelly Avatar
    Matt Kelly

    I would be happy to check into what, if any projections, were provided when the City approved the development of Central Park. Needless to say that occurred a bit before my time on Council. I would say, again, that the revenue from Central Park was responsible for the capital improvements in the city for education, recreation, and security.

    I would point out that you are missing a more important part of the Kalahari discussion and that is the issue of diversification of our tax base. Central Park is a retail development with similar anchor stores as most other new commercial developments in the region. And frankly, the retail development at 610 in Stafford, and at Massoponax in Spotsylvania, has impacted revenue to the city. Most retail commercial developments of this type have a good revenue life of (15) years before it begins to level off. Also, retail is greatly influenced by fluctuations in the economy. For these reasons we are trying to get away from more retail development and have advised the Silver Cos accordingly when it comes to Celebrate VA.

    As I’ve pointed out the City has been discussing for years the need to diversify its tax base, which currently relies on the real estate tax and sales tax primarily from retail, before build-out to ensure its financial viability in the future. The main question is how does Kalahari fit in the City’s plans to achieve that goal.

    Needless to say, and as noted in the Letter of Intent, we do not expect there to be projects of this quality and size going up in Spotsylvania or Stafford anytime soon. And contrary to statements made this is a tourism destination project, i.e., users will come from farther out than two to three hours. Kalahari’s unique character plays in its favor. I would remind some who have been posting that Kalahari is a resort hotel with a water park. It attracts convention business as well as the swimming crowd. More importantly it is family oriented. People will always be attracted to this area because of its historic significance and sites. Making the experience more family friendly will not hurt. And the revenue from Kalahari will be used to help maintain the City’s historic character.

    Another factor is that Kalahari is the type of project that will attract other tourism opportunities to Celebrate VA. That attraction means we should not have to offer significant incentive packages, if any, to get them to locate here. The Silver Cos. has also been advised of this by the City.

    My research into this project is, and will, continue. And no matter how much time and effort one spends looking at projections there are no guarantees. That goes for Kalahari or any project others may want to see.

  5. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    MK and the majority of the City
    Council of Fredericksburg will
    approve the Kalahari project.

    But even that opportunity will
    not get this small town’s budget
    on sound footing.

    Sustainable development is not
    to be found there, other than the
    regional medical center and private
    development around it on Rt. 1
    and Cowan Boulevard.

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    First of all, Central Park opened more than a decade ago, not in 2003. It has expanded steadily over that period.

    Incentive giveaways to Kalahari from the city will total an estimated $61M over the next 20 years, according to the FLS. This includes a huge discount on water supply and hookups at a time when the region is running low on this most vital resource. (Does anyone else see any irony in a water park named after a desert?)

    The jobs generated by this project will be decidedly low-end, spurring cheap housing that will be a net tax burden to the area. The traffic generated will make an intolerable tranportation quagmire an insurmountable obstacle. Will the tremendous added public expense be exceeded by the generated tax revenues? Not with $61M in tax giveaways.

    –Not Bill Howell

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Oh yeah…

    In the past, Kalahari has wrangled its lucrative public assistance from down-at-the-heels ghost towns in the abandoned Rust Bowl. The Fredericksburg region is one of the fastest-growing areas in the country. It has the greatest potential for generating heritage tourism of any like-sized area of the country (and the heritage tourist spends twice as much as the average tourist). Why sell this birthright for the porridge bowl of Carnytown? Why condition people to want to forget the past with an agenda-driven propaganda pit like the redundant slavery museum?

    Wannabee New Yorker Larry Silver should just buy Coney Island and leave us alone.

    — Not Bill Howell

  8. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    The issue driving these considerations is the city’s
    budget and fiscal policy.

    MK and I live in a neighborhood
    called College Heights adjacent
    to the University of Mary Washington.

    There are five churches there,
    a host of university related
    facilities and a number of businesses and offices around
    it.

    The neighborhood needs funds for
    street repairs, sidewalk improvements and upgrading of
    our stormwater management facilities.

    There are about 450 residents in
    this vintage, wonderful community
    in which residents have invested
    millions of dollars in new home
    construction, additions and upgrades.

    But MK has never shown interest in
    having an investment made in this
    great community.

    Instead he has supported:

    -construction of a $7 m garage in
    our downtown which few people use,
    merchants opposed and is paid for
    by bonds being retired by our gas
    taxes;

    -purchase of a $100,000 high tech
    robo cop system and new SUV for
    issuing parking tickets, which despite the original sales pitch, has still required foot officers downtown and patrols in neighborhoods;

    -buying a $1 m lot downtown on our
    riverfront for a new $7.6 m park
    which we do not have funds for;

    -while this fiscal year, we have
    been drawing down our town’s cash
    reserves by almost $5 m, a deficit
    government operation not unlike the
    federal government.

    MK is legendary in Fredericksburg
    for extolling the vitures of his
    City Council in the local paper and
    at least three blogs currently
    relative to this issue.

    We have bad government in our little town, poorly managed and
    controlled by a few elected officials interested in legacy
    projects not the interest of the
    residents.

  9. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    sounds like the kind of rhetoric that one would expect prior to an election challenge…..

    🙂

    and a thought… both of the adjacent jurisdictions have available venues for kalahari so if this is the area that kalahari really wants to be and it turns out that Fredericksburg boots them… I would not be surprised to see a second shoe drop.

    and perhaps that would be a revealing outcome.. to see if Stafford and/or Spotsylvania would be willing to match Fredericksburg’s offer.

    FYI – there is a daily drumbeat of letters to the editor in the FLS – almost as if it was a calculated strategy… interesting…

    also.. I did not know if folks here knew that Mr. Kelly had his own blog where he is pretty darn accessible … in a very public way.. for questions…

    http://questeverything.blogspot.com/2008/01/kalahari-questions-please.html

  10. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    Larry Gross does not live in the
    City of Fredericksburg – he resides
    in Spotslyvania County, thus his
    comments about issues facing the
    city should be qualified by that
    fact. He like MK knows no limits
    his views about how others should
    live and our tax money should be
    used.

  11. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Correct.

    But be advised that the project is within a thousand or so feet to Spotsylvania and will impact Spotsylvania economically and transportationally.

    those who know me in the area and in this blog know that I am tend to be fiscally conservative and opposed in general to subsides.

    Now, Mr. Provo – would you like to disclose what you do for a living in the Fredericksburg Area?

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Needless to say, I don’t live in Fredericksburg. I’ve spent quite a bit of time there though, in an earlier life, when I engaged in Civil War reenacting as hobby. (I fought for President Lincoln, in case anyone is interested.)

    I also have disagreed with Rodger Provo on a number of occasions. However, I think he has pointed out a serious flaw in state and local government that extends well beyond Fredericksburg.

    Government, driven mainly by egocentric elected officials of both parties and the lure of lobbyists, has lost its focus on doing the basics and doing them well. Why fix potholes when one can build a civic center?

    We need civic center, but we also need potholes fixed. It’s nice to offer new educational programs, but we also need high school graduates who can read and perform math at grade level.

    All of us want to leave a legacy and it’s hard, as leader, not to travel towards “big things,” but what about doing the basics well and efficiently first? Tim Kaine is striving for his legacy. He wants to top Mark Warner. But neither can hold a candle to Doug Wilder. Wilder has many flaws, but he managed the Commonwealth through tough times and didn’t make excuses or please the WaPo by raising taxes. The developers weren’t happy because he didn’t expand roads on the backs of taxpayers to enable a few landowners to make millions more. But the average Virginian, be she black, white or Asian, was well-served.

    We need get government leaders focused on performing basic services well and efficiently. Then, let’s look at the next steps.

    TMT

  13. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Public service is a thankless task for those who just want to serve (as opposed to it being a way to profit).

    If you read between the lines of what Mr. Kelly has said…

    that Fredericksburg’s “share” of sales and lodging taxes that it uses to keep it’s own real and property taxes low..

    .. is being reduced because of “competition” from Spotsylvania and Stafford building their own regional shopping destinations..

    so I don’t see this as a legacy issue as what should those charged with protecting the city’s financial interests… do?

    Yes.. they can cut some Capital projects as Mr. Provo suggests but taxes are still going to have to go up if revenues from sales/lodging taxes continues to erode..

    is that an acceptable answer to the citizens of Fredericksburg, who, like Mr. Provo are advocating capital projects in his own neighborhood?

    What I am suggesting is that if one is an elected official – should they feel a duty to diversify the sources of revenues especially if they are competing against other jurisdictions for some of those revenues?

    Is the pursuit of that – a legitimate duty for elected officials?

    I don’t think the average voter is going to say no to this question.

    If the answer is yes.. but you think it should be done a different way..then we have the basis for a different vision that ought to be an election issues – healthy debate.

    And note the title of Mr. Kelly’s Blog – “Question Everything”.

  14. Matt Kelly Avatar
    Matt Kelly

    A few observations on the last few posts. The night of my reelection I announced I would not seek a third term. Please feel free to take over in two years. I have, and will, continue to work with the College Heights Civic Association and other neighborhood groups to address their concerns. Most of the Capital projects alluded to had been talked about for years and had vast community support. Some, such as the garage, were built to assist in the revitalization of the city. And finally I am also a Civil War reenactor—a private in the 28th Mass Volunteers, Co. B. Yes another Yankee.

    Let’s get back on track. The question to be answered is this—How does a city facing build-out ensure its future ability to provide services, i.e. fix potholes and sidewalks, protect its quality of life and historic character, while minimizing the tax burden on city residents, in the face of the current financial and growth realities? I don’t know how many times I have posted that question and am still waiting for an answer. What I am hearing is do nothing. In my position that is not an option.

    The city cannot continue to rely on real estate and sales tax from retail development and expect to remain financially viable. The decision was made long ago by other elected officials, “only interested in their legacies,” to diversify our tax base into the areas of tourism and higher end jobs. We have areas in the city where we are working to bring high end employment; and we have areas, like Celebrate VA, that have been planned for tourism development. To fix roads, sidewalks and protect our birthright—the historic character of the city comes with on going costs. “Just say No” will not cover those costs. If you have another approach I am willing to listen to alternatives.

    I would like to address some of the latest complaints– not suggestions, solutions or alternatives– aired on this blog. In regard to the comment on, “huge discounts” for water I suggest you actually read the Letter of Intent. Water and sewer are being discounted but will be subject to any future increases in the rates. If Kalahari exceeds its allowed usage they will pay for it at normal rates. I would ask whether this could be characterized as, “huge.” I would ask Anonymous 2:45AM to please provide the break-even water sewer rates for the city.

    In regard to the issue of water usage I would refer everyone to the FLS story that ran on December 8th comparing water usage of different types of development.

    To sat that Kalahari will in some way destroy our, “birthright”—the historic character of the city is to deny the current reality. Would anyone describe what has happened west of I-95 on the Rt. 3 corridor as complimentary to our historic character? What about the Jeff Davis corridor or the ongoing development in Spotsylvania and Stafford? There is no question that the development pressures on the city, if not addressed, will compromise the character of Fredericksburg. We have spent the last year working on a citywide Preservation Plan to protect the City’s historic character. To implement that plan will require financial recourses.

    When I was elected to City Council it was on the understanding that what went in west of I-95 was for revenue generation. That is why it was annexed back in the 80s. However, the character and quality of life east of I-95 was to be protected. I am committed to protecting the quality of life and historic character of the city. However, I cannot change what has already happened.

    In regards to the, “intolerable transportation quagmire,” that Kalahari would cause I would suggest the author first read the FLS piece on transportation impacts which ran on December 8th. I would also suggest that you look at the infrastructure impacts of development in Spotsylvania and Stafford in the past five years and compare it with the city.

    On the housing front I would translate “cheap housing” as meaning affordable. Right now we are trying to protect our diverse housing stock and finding ways to work with developers to provide housing for teachers, police and firemen. I would suggest that some research be done on the demographics of this region before commenting on housing and jobs.

    This is an extremely important dialogue and I hope we can now move it to a level of discourse that addresses, suggestions, alternatives and solutions.

  15. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    Jim Bacon’s posting:

    Fredericksburg’s revenues from
    Central Park declined because
    various developers built other
    retail projects in the PDC 16
    with the same stores that have
    bled business from the massive
    big box project.

    The new projects are better
    designed, more attractive and
    in some instances have better
    access because of required road
    improvements.

    In regards to MK’s last posting
    readers around Virginia need to know:

    -MK and others ignored wishes in
    the community about various items
    mentioned by me, including a desire
    to have two or three smaller garages built downtown, not one
    large one, not buying a $100,000
    robo “high-tech” robo cop for
    our small town to issue parking
    tickets and not spending $1 m
    for a lot for a $7.6 m parking we
    can’t fund during a period of budget shortfalls;

    -MK worked with some civic association leaders inspite of
    resident concerns about unwarranted
    road improvements that failed and
    now are being removed;

    -MK fails to ackowledge the city
    has harmed the character of the
    town with the ugly Central Park
    sign on Rt. 3, some of the worst
    architectural standards in the
    state for new construction and
    allowing McMansions to be built
    in wonderful, established old
    town neighborhoods;

    -MK opposed the development of a
    major road in the region similar
    to Rt. 199 in Williamsburg that
    would relieved the community’s
    traffic problems when VDOT had
    money (funds for that project
    were used in West Point to upgrade
    a Rt. 30 there and to build two new
    bridges);

    -and MK and others have managed a
    government that has continued to
    have budget problems which this new
    project will not solve given the
    current budget deficit will not be
    covered by the income proposed to
    be generated by it.

    Fredericksburg needs new leaders.

  16. Matt Kelly Avatar
    Matt Kelly

    Mr. Provo seems to be having a few memory issues:

    1.I wasn’t on Council when Central Park was built-out and had nothing to do with the sign on Rt. 3.

    2.I would ask anyone to look at the development at Massaponax and Rt. 610 and tell me they are of better quality. Most of which is being developed by the same developer as Central Park with the same anchor stores. As for traffic, drive to these locations and tell me what you think?

    3. The plan has always been to build two or three small parking decks downtown. The one built was the first. Anyone want to say that a 294 space parking deck is large?

    4. As per the Police Chief the new parking enforcement vehicle has resulted in more efficient enforcement of parking downtown and allowed for increased parking enforcement in the neighborhood around the train station, facing problems with commuters, and in College Heights with the problem with commuting students.

    5. I think (?) Mr. Provo is complaining about the purchase of land on the riverfront for the park. While Mr. Provo doesn’t like it most calls and e-mails I have received support it.

    6. The unwarranted road improvements were bump outs requested by the neighborhood, and initially supported by Mr., Provo. I must agree they were not laid out well. However, the Civic Association asked that we wait until after the bus station opened to consider removing them in case of possible traffic problems caused by the station. We are honoring the Civic Associations request.

    7. As I have already posted, and Mr. Provo should be aware, we are looking at ordinances to stop McMasions from being build. As I have said we need to maintain our diverse housing stock.

    8. Don’t know what road project Mr. Provo is referring to that I single handedly stopped. If he is referring to the outer connecter I was one of at least (15) local elected officials from Stafford, Spotsylvania, and the city that opposed the plans put forth by VDOT.

    9. As for budget issues one has only to read the paper to see that problems with retail sales and real estate values is state if not nationwide.

    I fully expect criticism regarding my positions as an elected official. But I at least expect the criticism would be based on the facts and actions I’ve actually taken. I’m still waiting for Mr. Provo to explain why Kalahari would not help the City’s tax base.

  17. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    MK protests to much I think and has a poor memory.

    I didn’t say he was on the City
    Council when a large big box
    development was created with a
    big sign.

    Other new retail developments in
    region are better designed and are
    more attractive and they have a
    better traffic flow than what was
    created in Fredericksburg.

    Merchants downtown did not want
    the large garage for our little
    town built at the location it was.

    A city with a $5 m deficit for the
    current fiscal year has no prospect
    of building other garages.

    This $7 m, 294 garage is a big job
    for this town. It has been so
    poorly utilitzed city staff has
    been encouraged to use it.

    There was major opposition in town to our $100,000 high tech robo cop.

    Many residents have not voiced
    their opposition to the land
    purchase because they are just
    discouraged by the course of the
    city’s government.

    How many people have called MK to
    voice support for a $1 m land buy
    during a period of a $5 m deficit
    in our budget for a $7.6 m park
    we do not have funds to build?

    I opposed the road improvements in
    a civic association work session
    about possible traffic problems on
    the street we reside that MK and his political allies pushed the city to build which we did not need
    for the problems they were concerned about did not materialize.

    MK did play a role in working with
    others to kill a major transportation improvement for the
    Fredericksburg region.

    The city’s budget problems are the
    result of a spending spree by our
    government and failure to understand local, state and national economic trends.

    MK is a politician. His posting
    is a political spin at best.

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Geeze .. you’d think Mr. Kelly is responsible for the wrong decisions of the current and previous City Councils…

    I’m impressed!

    and I’m insulted.. because Rodger had previously accused me of being single-handedly responsible for the demise of his beloved road…

    what was this about..??

    oh yeah.. a water park…

    I think that horse expired some time ago… and we going after ther herd now..

    🙂

  19. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    Larry Gross –

    I have never said that MK is
    responsible for bad decisions
    impacting the city.

    MK, you and others did your
    community a injustice killing
    that road project.

    This is about good government that
    meets the needs of our residents –
    not the needs of your county
    – so why don’t you stay out of this discussion.

  20. Matt Kelly Avatar
    Matt Kelly

    I would direct readers to the Free Lance Star story written on the parking deck on August 29, 2004 and one on the Stafford Ave. bump-outs written on July 20, 2005. Both can be found using the FLS on-line archives. I will leave it to the readers to decide if I am “spinning” these issues. This will be my last response to Mr. Provo as his posts are diverting us from a discussion of a very important issue facing the city, which is supose is his intent.

  21. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Rodger – last time I checked the idea behind this blog if for anyone who wants to – to participate.

    And as someone who supports good government, I’m sure you support open dialog about good government – right?

    Here’s Rodger beloved road:

    http://www.virginiadot.org/images/projects/OuterConnCorridorMap.jpg

    The road had widespread opposition INCLUDING the National Park Service, the EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers…

    Corridor 5 on the map was shown by VDOT’s own analysis to be BEST for relieving congestion – yet VDOT and Rodger favored having that road go to the rural parts of Spotsylvania virtually none of which has water/sewer or adequate local roads.

    I think it is pretty ironic that Rodger was in favor of a classic “Sprawl” road in Spotsylvania (where he does not live) at the same time he was writing articles for Virginia Business expressing opposition to “sprawl” roads in general AND advocating a citizens visioning process as a better approach.

    http://www.gatewayva.com/biz/virginiabusiness/magazine/yr2005/may05/ideas.shtml

    Rodgers ideas of who should be in that group are, of course, only those he agrees with.

    All others should “stay out” of the discussion.

    🙂

    road that went from I-95 5 miles into the rural part of Spotsylvania that has virtually no water and sewer, roads alre

  22. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    MK Posting:

    MK’s suggested read of two stories
    in the Free Lance-Star about the
    Fredericksburg parking garage and
    the Stafford Avenue traffic islands
    will not reveal all the facts about these matters.

    The city built a $7 m garage at the
    wrong end of our downtown for 294
    vehicles that has not been used by shoppers.

    City employees and commuters have
    been encouraged to use it. Our
    merchants did not want it built at
    that location.

    Our neighborhood association made
    a crisis about the opening of a new
    road’s (Cowan Boulevard) bad impact
    on College Heights, where we both live.

    The road, that MK opposed, has not harmed us and it has resulted in less traffic on our street because a traffic light was relocated at the intersection of it and Rt. 1.

    Traffic islands built on it cost $40,000 and they have resulted in numerous traffic accidents.

    The city has seen fit to begin to
    remove them.

    Larry Gross Posting:

    Larry Gross is no friend of the
    traveling public or good planning
    in our region.

    We have more than 300,000 residents
    in PDC 16. As we have grown, our
    road system does not provide good
    access across the community nor the
    ability for traffic to get around
    the community going other places.

    Students at the UMW graduate center
    on Rt. 17 have to fight bumper to
    bumper traffic on it daily.

    Area workers who have jobs along
    that corridor have the same task.

    Residents of Spotsylvania County,
    who have a job there or attend a
    class at UMW’s center, have to travel down Rt. 3, take I-95 north
    and then Rt. 17 to get to their
    destination.

    These problems cause bad traffic jams in the city for we have to travel across town to get from Point A to Point B in the two
    adjoining fast growth counties.

    Truckers and motorists wanting to
    go up Rt. 17 to I-81 for trips to
    Canada, the midwest and northeast
    now struggle with traffic jams on
    I-95 and Rt. 17 in our region for
    we do not have an adequate road
    system.

    MK, Larry Gross and others who led
    efforts to kill solutions to our
    problems caused VDOT to used the
    funds for our traffic relief in
    West Point for improving Rt. 30
    and two bridges there.

    Falmouth’s problem is the result of
    the failure of our community to
    support solutions to that problem
    resulting in one of the worst
    bottlenecks in the area.

    Writers to this blog can snipe, make rude remarks, political statements and take dismissive
    actions, but some of them are not
    serving their communities well.

  23. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think the comments pretty much demonstrate that Mr. Provo has an agenda that has little to do with the actual merits of the waterpark proposal.

    I SUPPORTED the building of new and additional infrastructure that would serve the existing growth and development.

    I SUPPORTED the best performing alternative as opposed to the sprawl road that Rodger wanted.

    Mr. Provo apparently believes that you use your primary roads for commercial development and then build bypasses… around the mess that was created…

    Old School – Rodger.

    Shame on you for writing in Va Business that you oppose sprawl when you supported it in your own community then claim that others who opposed sprawl do not “care” about their community.

  24. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    I think Larry Gross continues to
    pedal his agenda without regards
    to his community’s needs to provide
    cross community access and to get
    traffic around the region that has
    destinations elsewhere.

    Why should the Fredericksburg area be denied the benefits of roads such as the Fairfax Parkway, the Prince William Parkway, Rt. 288
    in western Richmond and Rt. 199 in
    Williamsburg?

    The mess in Fredericksburg has to do with the level of build out around interstate interchanges, housing developments along primary roads using those interchanges and the inability of residents to move around the area without using those bottlenecks.

    Because of zoning entitlements, we
    have the sprawl you detest. Your
    game plan is similar to that used
    by activists in Fairfax County in
    the 1970s who thought by killing
    road projects they would slow the
    growth there.

    That game plan does not work.

    I would invite your readers to visit a 130 acre project I did
    in Fredericksburg on Cowan Boulevard adjoining our regional medical center which provides much needed new forms of housing in the city, employment centers and preserved valuable environmental and historic resources for the town. A smart growth project for
    the city which received broad
    support in the community.

    I am not going to respond to your
    comments about the waterpark, my
    advocating sprawl and my articles
    in Virginia Business.

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yee Hah, this is fun. good blog.

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Kill the road plans to slow the growth and then complain about APF.

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m not one that believes that we can or should attempt to “stop” growth nor that even if we could – that we should.

    But WHERE growth occurs or not and what kind it IS and whether it pays for itself IS something we can affect.

    That’s why it is almost amusing to me that we have two folks who both say they are concerned with sprawl-type development by have different views about the role of roads.

    And while, Rodger and I obviously don’t agree.. I would never accuse him of not caring for his community which I think is a cheap shot.

    I’ve lived in this community for almost 40 years when Spotsylvania had a population of less than 20 thousand and I have wholeheartedly supported building more roads as well as improving/expanding existing ones.

    For instance, I supported the new Spotsylvania Parkway and the new Spotsylvania Courthouse Bypass and Cowan Boulevard as good projects that does help existing residents get around without causing sprawl.

    I support limited access parkways and Access Management for existing roads.

    I do not believe that we should allow commercial development to ruin our existing primary roads such as Route 3 and Route 17 which Rodger often cites as “terrible” and why we need to build new roads.

    The folks who are opposed to access management are the same ones in favor of new roads..to “go around”.

    and of course they want someone else to pay for them – not folks in our region.

    So Rodger wants no accountability locally for how development damages the existing transportation network.

    He is IN favor of local land-use decisions separated from VDOT road decisions – which I am completely opposed to for local and regional roads.

    I DO believe that VDOT should handle roads that “connect” regions and the state.

    and I actually agree about the Fairfax County Parkway.

    It is a local road funded by local folks who are responsible to ensure that the road is access managed and does not become a taxpayer-funded venue more uncoordinated development.

    If the Fredericksburg Area wants to come together as a region to build and fund their own connecting road network in concert with land-use planning – I completely support that.

    The Fredericksburg Area has already engaged in a visioning exercise called Reality Check sponsored by the same Urban Land Institute that he claims to be a member of and I fully support the idea of collaborative regional land-use and transportation planning.

    I support the MPO concept and I support the concept of Transportation Authorities.

    Rodger essentially sides with the folks who wanted to do a sneaky back-door process for a road that a majority of area citizens, elected officials and Federal Agencies like the Park Service, EPA and Army Corps were opposed to.

    and so he, in my mind, dishonestly portrays past history in a way that does not admit the reality of how wide and deep opposition was nor does he acknowledge that had they followed an honest citizen-engaged process that the outcome may well have been a consensus path forward.

    There were AMPLE opportunities for compromises that would add to the transportation network ways that would not have further enabled sprawl – and still are with PPTA toll roads but some folks continue to dream on that the state is going take money away from other citizens in Virginia and have VDOT spend it on a road that is not supported by citizens.

    so I see such efforts as basically advocating sneaky back-door fast-track attempts to do end runs around citizens.

    It’s very old school and in today’s world it is no longer possible to do it and it was NEVER a good process to start with.

    so it appears to me that what is supported is a visioning process like Envision Utah but only for “select” folks.. you know the real decision-makers …

    and that approach does not work anymore with the advent of the internet…

    so .. that leaves folks like Rodger to blame the opposition rather than respecting opposite opinions and finding ways forward…

    the real enemies of solutions in my mind is those who think that only certain folks should participate in regional planning.

    I am in favor of a big tent approach.. even though it is messy at times.. you get two very important things out of it.

    first you get citizen feedback – which if ignored.. could scuttle future efforts (like the OC).

    second, and equally important, citizen involvement leads to citizen support and progress made.

    I totally reject the idea that the best way forward is essentially sneaky back door efforts controlled by a small group but billed as public Visioning…

    and again.. as much as I do not agree .. I’d not accuse others of not caring for their community… and I think it deserves an apology from Rodger.

  28. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I want to point out one more important aspect of the road that Rodger advocated in that it was being designed and promoted as an alternative to I-95… with similar traffic including 18-wheelers and a similar speeds

    .. as opposed to a true Parkway like Cowan Boulevard and the Spotsylvania Parkway both of which are 45 mph, have curbs/gutters, sidewalks, walking trails and do not attract out of state 18-wheelers.

    This is one of the essential differences between what I consider community Regional roads (like the Fairfax Parkway) and roads that walk and talk like I-95.

    So.. I am opposed to any more I-95’s in our area other than to expand/improve/optimize the existing corridor with things like C/D and HOT/HOV lanes and more appropriately designed “urban” interchanges ….

    If VDOT had proposed a true parkway that would not attract I-95 through traffic.. citizens including myself would have supported it.

    In fact.. that is what we advocated but with VDOT at least on some roads.. it’s “their way or the highway” so basically they left no room for compromise and a way forward.

    And as Rodger has indicated, the not-officially-stated “word” was that if we did not accept the road “as is” then VDOT would take the money and give it to another locality…

    Rodger apparently supported that kind of approach. I was appalled and I was not alone by any stretch of the imagination.

    As a person who DID care about my community, I was opposed, and I make no apologies.

    It was a bad concept that deserved to die.

  29. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    To All –

    This is the end …. good day and
    good night … God Bless !!!!!!!!

    -30-

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