Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Once Upon a Time, a Long, Long Time Ago, When the Spirit of Reconciliation Ruled the Land…

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

As the Washington & Lee University board of visitors nears a vote on dropping Lee from the university name, 22 W&L alumni affiliated with the General’s Redoubt have affixed their names to an essay that makes the following points:

  • There are numerous historical ties between the families of George Washington and Robert E. Lee, and both families were involved in the birth of our nation and its ongoing evolution.
  • Both George Washington and Robert E. Lee were interested and involved with education, not only academic instruction, but also practical and moral education.
  • Both men supported reconciliation after long and divisive wars.
  • The personal association of George Washington and Robert E. Lee with our university has been a successful “branding” strategy for over 225 years.

You can read the letter here.

— JAB

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Comments

172 responses to “Once Upon a Time, a Long, Long Time Ago, When the Spirit of Reconciliation Ruled the Land…”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    TRUTH and reconciliation maybe?

    😉

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      We cannot judge them by today’s morality and standards. That was 150 to 200 years ago. Things were different. But, uh, we need laws today based on Christian values taught by a guy 2000 years ago.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        geez NN, what a buzz killer…. 😉

      2. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        Nancy_Naive wrote: “But, uh, we need laws today based on Christian values taught by a guy 2000 years ago.”

        Nice way to find common ground with Christians. Do you treat Muslims like that?

        “When the Spirit of Reconciliation Ruled the Land…”

  2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Someone should remind the Board that if it wasn’t for Robert E Lee and the values he instilled at W&L, there would be no college. That part of history cannot be erased.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    The letter from the alumni is very good. I have always been fascinated with the relationship between George Washington and Robert E. Lee. Their lives are interwoven and their influence on the history of the nation is indispensable. I do expect the W and L leaders to go woke. And they will pay for it by going broke.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    They were both Great men but I will point out that W&L used to be Washington and no harm occurred from neglecting Lee. Right?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Just change Robert E. to Francis L. and leave it W&L.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        If it had stayed Washington College it would have gone bankrupt which it was on the verge of when Lee became president. History, History, History.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Well, I wonder if he was asked which was his proudest accomplishment, saving Washington College, or attempting to destroy the Union, what he would say?

          If it’s saving the college, then his statues in civilian clothes standing beside a desk would easily stand the test of time better than in uniform on a horse.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Then what was he doing in Pennsylvania?

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            What was Lee doing in Pennsylvania? First and often overlooked, Lee was feeding his army courtesy of the farmers of Pennsylvania. Second Lee sought to draw the Army of the Potomac out of Virginia for at least one campaign season. Third, if the opportunity for a decisive victory on northern soil was presented, Lee would take the gamble to win a peace.

          3. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            Destroying the Union? That was accomplished by the “Fire Eaters” who opened on Fort Sumter and Lincoln’s call for 75,000 volunteers.
            https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.timetoast.com/public/uploads/photo/14166167/image/original-0f15cfa08291ddb3fc175f2fe8c302cc.jpg

            Lee’s response was this. His intentions were only to defend Virginia.
            https://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/arho/exb/Military/ARHO-5623-Copy-of-RE-Lee-Le.jpg

          4. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Learn about the man before you make any other snarky comments. They don’t reflect well on you.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 12, 2021 at 1:03 pm |
            Then what was he doing in Pennsylvania?”

            Trying to route his Army to the north of Washington D.C. and force a surrender.

          6. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            And all this time I thought he was just avoiding the toll on the CBBT.

          7. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            Lincoln calls forth a militia to quell insurrection and is attacked by today’s Right while they search to excuse and honor the acts of the traitors to our country. You all learned the Trump lessons well.

          8. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            The mythology surrounding Robert E. Lee and the South was wrong, but that wrong won’t be righted by demeaning him.

            And the country will not made better or more just by the endless renaming and tearing down of statues. Enough is enough.

            If we are to get along, we need to preserve some level of respect for our own people and culture. We would never treat foreigners with such blatant disrespect.

            Had the Olympics been held, the hypocrisy would be apparent as activists refused to stand for our own national anthem but show respect for the flags and anthems of totalitarian and despotic regimes around the world.

          9. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            I suspect that “FPOUTS” has made its way into your spellchecker/corrector. It’s a tedious task to remove things are are automatically added, but if you don’t do it, eventually everything you type autocorrects to crap.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | February 13, 2021 at 7:56 am |
            Lincoln calls forth a militia to quell insurrection and is attacked by today’s Right while they search to excuse and honor the acts of the traitors to our country. You all learned the Trump lessons well.”

            I was unaware that pointing out what Lee was doing in Gettysburg was rewriting history.

            I assume you’re aware that when calling for the volunteer force FPOUTS Lincoln approached Lee because of his reputation about being his General? So what you’re saying is that FPOUTS Lincoln was wrong to want to select Lee? I mean since you want to discount all other aspects of his life given his affiliations with the Confederacy (which he paid dearly for, during his lifetime).

          11. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            So what you are saying, Matt, is that Lincoln gave Lee the opportunity to do the right thing and Lee instead showed us all his true self. Given the number of American boys Lee killed, he deserves to be remembered for nothing else.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | February 14, 2021 at 8:49 am |
            So what you are saying, Matt, is that Lincoln gave Lee the opportunity to do the right thing and Lee instead showed us all his true self. Given the number of American boys Lee killed, he deserves to be remembered for nothing else.”

            No Lee rebuffed FPOTUS Lincoln and it wasn’t until a year later that he took up arms against the Union.

            Your myopic view of people and history is a sad state of affairs, I’m sure you’ve got the same beliefs of Lincoln as he was only fighting to preserve the Union and could give a rats about slaves?

  5. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    TRUTH and reconciliation maybe?

    😉

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      We cannot judge them by today’s morality and standards. That was 150 to 200 years ago. Things were different. But, uh, we need laws today based on Christian values taught by a guy 2000 years ago.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        geez NN, what a buzz killer…. 😉

      2. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        Nancy_Naive wrote: “But, uh, we need laws today based on Christian values taught by a guy 2000 years ago.”

        Nice way to find common ground with Christians. Do you treat Muslims like that?

        “When the Spirit of Reconciliation Ruled the Land…”

  6. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Someone should remind the Board that if it wasn’t for Robert E Lee and the values he instilled at W&L, there would be no college. That part of history cannot be erased.

  7. novalad Avatar
    novalad

    If progressives put one-tenth as much effort into making our youth the sort of folk Wordsworth or Kipling would eulogize as they do into exorcising long-dead planters from plaques, I might actually vote Left.

    But probably not this cycle: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Washington-and-Lincoln-are-out-S-F-school-board-15900963.php

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      When the Right acknowledges that Din is even just the man as they, I might vote Right too. But, I suspect we’ll both be waiting for water in Hell first.

      1. novalad Avatar
        novalad

        Two statues face each other outside the House of Commons. Cromwell and King Charles. Give my regrets to the Irish, but that’s the only model of historical memory I can get behind.

        But liberal cosmology privileges constant crusaderism against symbolic moral spectres to the exclusion of all else. Worthy Dem policy initiatives like increasing the child tax credit or crafting an industrial policy that doesn’t wholly lean on Bearcats and aerial ordnance are backwaters compared to the energy put into, say, rebranding “kids in cages” as “tented detention facilities.”

        The modern liberal project is an essentially therapeutic operation which launders staid, suburban, Sunday School social sensibility into the politics of material inaction by way of this insane kabuki theater we see playing out in schools and media organizations. If you think you’re bringing true good into the world by rearranging letters on a sign, why would you do anything else?

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          There’s two statues facing one another on Wall Street too. Well, maybe three.

  8. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    The letter from the alumni is very good. I have always been fascinated with the relationship between George Washington and Robert E. Lee. Their lives are interwoven and their influence on the history of the nation is indispensable. I do expect the W and L leaders to go woke. And they will pay for it by going broke.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    They were both Great men but I will point out that W&L used to be Washington and no harm occurred from neglecting Lee. Right?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Just change Robert E. to Francis L. and leave it W&L.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        If it had stayed Washington College it would have gone bankrupt which it was on the verge of when Lee became president. History, History, History.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Well, I wonder if he was asked which was his proudest accomplishment, saving Washington College, or attempting to destroy the Union, what he would say?

          If it’s saving the college, then his statues in civilian clothes standing beside a desk would easily stand the test of time better than in uniform on a horse.

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            Destroying the Union? That was accomplished by the “Fire Eaters” who opened on Fort Sumter and Lincoln’s call for 75,000 volunteers.
            https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.timetoast.com/public/uploads/photo/14166167/image/original-0f15cfa08291ddb3fc175f2fe8c302cc.jpg

            Lee’s response was this. His intentions were only to defend Virginia.
            https://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/arho/exb/Military/ARHO-5623-Copy-of-RE-Lee-Le.jpg

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Learn about the man before you make any other snarky comments. They don’t reflect well on you.

          3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Then what was he doing in Pennsylvania?

          4. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead V

            What was Lee doing in Pennsylvania? First and often overlooked, Lee was feeding his army courtesy of the farmers of Pennsylvania. Second Lee sought to draw the Army of the Potomac out of Virginia for at least one campaign season. Third, if the opportunity for a decisive victory on northern soil was presented, Lee would take the gamble to win a peace.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 12, 2021 at 1:03 pm |
            Then what was he doing in Pennsylvania?”

            Trying to route his Army to the north of Washington D.C. and force a surrender.

          6. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            And all this time I thought he was just avoiding the toll on the CBBT.

          7. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            Lincoln calls forth a militia to quell insurrection and is attacked by today’s Right while they search to excuse and honor the acts of the traitors to our country. You all learned the Trump lessons well.

          8. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            The mythology surrounding Robert E. Lee and the South was wrong, but that wrong won’t be righted by demeaning him.

            And the country will not made better or more just by the endless renaming and tearing down of statues. Enough is enough.

            If we are to get along, we need to preserve some level of respect for our own people and culture. We would never treat foreigners with such blatant disrespect.

            Had the Olympics been held, the hypocrisy would be apparent as activists refused to stand for our own national anthem but show respect for the flags and anthems of totalitarian and despotic regimes around the world.

          9. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | February 13, 2021 at 7:56 am |
            Lincoln calls forth a militia to quell insurrection and is attacked by today’s Right while they search to excuse and honor the acts of the traitors to our country. You all learned the Trump lessons well.”

            I was unaware that pointing out what Lee was doing in Gettysburg was rewriting history.

            I assume you’re aware that when calling for the volunteer force FPOUTS Lincoln approached Lee because of his reputation about being his General? So what you’re saying is that FPOUTS Lincoln was wrong to want to select Lee? I mean since you want to discount all other aspects of his life given his affiliations with the Confederacy (which he paid dearly for, during his lifetime).

          10. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            I suspect that “FPOUTS” has made its way into your spellchecker/corrector. It’s a tedious task to remove things are are automatically added, but if you don’t do it, eventually everything you type autocorrects to crap.

          11. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
            Eric the Half a Troll

            So what you are saying, Matt, is that Lincoln gave Lee the opportunity to do the right thing and Lee instead showed us all his true self. Given the number of American boys Lee killed, he deserves to be remembered for nothing else.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Eric the Half a Troll | February 14, 2021 at 8:49 am |
            So what you are saying, Matt, is that Lincoln gave Lee the opportunity to do the right thing and Lee instead showed us all his true self. Given the number of American boys Lee killed, he deserves to be remembered for nothing else.”

            No Lee rebuffed FPOTUS Lincoln and it wasn’t until a year later that he took up arms against the Union.

            Your myopic view of people and history is a sad state of affairs, I’m sure you’ve got the same beliefs of Lincoln as he was only fighting to preserve the Union and could give a rats about slaves?

  10. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
    Anonymous_Bosch

    Why not just cut to the chase and get rid of Washington as well. We all know it’s coming and there isn’t a good reason for waiting until the next George Floyd gets it. To quote J.M. Barrie: “This has all happened before, and it will happen again.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      University! Wow! Just lay claim to the top! I like it!

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        Didn’t Bluto wear a sweatshirt that just said “College” in Animal House?

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Yes, yes I think he did. Wound up as a Senator too, as I recall.

    2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
      Bill O’Keefe

      Or as Yogi Berra said, it’s deja vu all over again. Like the former Redskins who are now the Washington Football Team, W&L could be the No Name College or join with VMI or become The College in Lexington. The options are endless.

      1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
        Anonymous_Bosch

        Even “Lexington” is racist if you think about it long enough. We need to dumb it down to the level of the future students (and current leadership) and name it “That School Over There”.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          or perhaps the George Floyd School of Excellence? 😉

          1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
            Anonymous_Bosch

            No, the feminist men in That School Over There won’t like that he beat his family before the cops beat him.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        I suspect that if the Washington Football Team had just done 1/2 of something similar to what Florida State has done to retain their name, then they’d still be the Skins.

  11. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
    Anonymous_Bosch

    Why not just cut to the chase and get rid of Washington as well. We all know it’s coming and there isn’t a good reason for waiting until the next George Floyd gets it. To quote J.M. Barrie: “This has all happened before, and it will happen again.”

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      University! Wow! Just lay claim to the top! I like it!

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        Didn’t Bluto wear a sweatshirt that just said “College” in Animal House?

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Yes, yes I think he did. Wound up as a Senator too, as I recall.

    2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
      Bill O’Keefe

      Or as Yogi Berra said, it’s deja vu all over again. Like the former Redskins who are now the Washington Football Team, W&L could be the No Name College or join with VMI or become The College in Lexington. The options are endless.

      1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
        Anonymous_Bosch

        Even “Lexington” is racist if you think about it long enough. We need to dumb it down to the level of the future students (and current leadership) and name it “That School Over There”.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          or perhaps the George Floyd School of Excellence? 😉

          1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
            Anonymous_Bosch

            No, the feminist men in That School Over There won’t like that he beat his family before the cops beat him.

      2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        I suspect that if the Washington Football Team had just done 1/2 of something similar to what Florida State has done to retain their name, then they’d still be the Skins.

  12. novalad Avatar
    novalad

    If progressives put one-tenth as much effort into making our youth the sort of folk Wordsworth or Kipling would eulogize as they do into exorcising long-dead planters from plaques, I might actually vote Left.

    But probably not this cycle: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Washington-and-Lincoln-are-out-S-F-school-board-15900963.php

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      When the Right acknowledges that Din is even just the man as they, I might vote Right too. But, I suspect we’ll both be waiting for water in Hell first.

      1. novalad Avatar
        novalad

        Two statues face each other outside the House of Commons. Cromwell and King Charles. Give my regrets to the Irish, but that’s the only model of historical memory I can get behind.

        But liberal cosmology privileges constant crusaderism against symbolic moral spectres to the exclusion of all else. Worthy Dem policy initiatives like increasing the child tax credit or crafting an industrial policy that doesn’t wholly lean on Bearcats and aerial ordnance are backwaters compared to the energy put into, say, rebranding “kids in cages” as “tented detention facilities.”

        The modern liberal project is an essentially therapeutic operation which launders staid, suburban, Sunday School social sensibility into the politics of material inaction by way of this insane kabuki theater we see playing out in schools and media organizations. If you think you’re bringing true good into the world by rearranging letters on a sign, why would you do anything else?

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          There’s two statues facing one another on Wall Street too. Well, maybe three.

  13. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    Didn’t Queen Elizabeth I personally sponsor slaving voyages like those conducted by John Hawkins? Wasn’t Elizabeth I called “The Virgin Queen”? Isn’t Virginia named after her?

    Quick, somebody get Northam on the phone. This state is named after the sponsor of the slave trade itself. Never mind the vaccine, failing schools, wreaked infrastructure or skyrocketing taxes … this state is named after a sponsor of the slave trade. The Lord High Commissioner of Wokeness needs to act. This is intolerable. We can’t wait to find a new name. We need to kill off the racist “Virginia” name immediately. We will just call ourselves “State” or maybe “Commonwealth”.

    This needs immediate attention.

    1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
      Anonymous_Bosch

      Hell, Amerigo Vespucci couldn’t have been much better. Why dont we rename this continent New Zimbabwe so all of us old, rich, white, privileged, Amerrhodies can hang old glory up in our pubs and dream about the good old days?

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “…all of us old, rich, white, privileged, Amerrhodies can hang old glory up in our pubs and dream about the good old days?”

        In that case, you’ll want New Rhodesia.

        1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
          Anonymous_Bosch

          Or we could just stop the communists from doing America like they did Rhodesia.

          1. novalad Avatar
            novalad

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSmSuKC2Flc

  14. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    Didn’t Queen Elizabeth I personally sponsor slaving voyages like those conducted by John Hawkins? Wasn’t Elizabeth I called “The Virgin Queen”? Isn’t Virginia named after her?

    Quick, somebody get Northam on the phone. This state is named after the sponsor of the slave trade itself. Never mind the vaccine, failing schools, wreaked infrastructure or skyrocketing taxes … this state is named after a sponsor of the slave trade. The Lord High Commissioner of Wokeness needs to act. This is intolerable. We can’t wait to find a new name. We need to kill off the racist “Virginia” name immediately. We will just call ourselves “State” or maybe “Commonwealth”.

    This needs immediate attention.

    1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
      Anonymous_Bosch

      Hell, Amerigo Vespucci couldn’t have been much better. Why dont we rename this continent New Zimbabwe so all of us old, rich, white, privileged, Amerrhodies can hang old glory up in our pubs and dream about the good old days?

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        “…all of us old, rich, white, privileged, Amerrhodies can hang old glory up in our pubs and dream about the good old days?”

        In that case, you’ll want New Rhodesia.

        1. Anonymous_Bosch Avatar
          Anonymous_Bosch

          Or we could just stop the communists from doing America like they did Rhodesia.

          1. novalad Avatar
            novalad

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSmSuKC2Flc

  15. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I

  16. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I

  17. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    What laborious drivel. Washington died in 1799. Lee was born in 1807. Marrying into someone’s family is hardly a measure of greatness. More mythology

  18. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    What laborious drivel. Washington died in 1799. Lee was born in 1807. Marrying into someone’s family is hardly a measure of greatness. More mythology

  19. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The slavery issue is often portrayed as if it were the accepted norms of that time.

    The abolitionist movement was very much alive and well in the slavery era, and very much opposed to the institution of slavery. There just were many others who defended it and indeed fought a war over it.

    But to look at a historical figure and say he was only following the norms of that era and perhaps not very aware of the right or wrong of it – is not exactly a fully accurate portrayal. There were strong feelings against it – at the time others CHOSE to have slaves – and not everyone did – by a long shot.

    Lee, like others, like Jefferson, like Washington DID choose to own slaves – they did not have to – and there many, many others that did not own slaves and in fact were strongly opposed to the institution – AT THAT TIME!

  20. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The slavery issue is often portrayed as if it were the accepted norms of that time.

    The abolitionist movement was very much alive and well in the slavery era, and very much opposed to the institution of slavery. There just were many others who defended it and indeed fought a war over it.

    But to look at a historical figure and say he was only following the norms of that era and perhaps not very aware of the right or wrong of it – is not exactly a fully accurate portrayal. There were strong feelings against it – at the time others CHOSE to have slaves – and not everyone did – by a long shot.

    Lee, like others, like Jefferson, like Washington DID choose to own slaves – they did not have to – and there many, many others that did not own slaves and in fact were strongly opposed to the institution – AT THAT TIME!

  21. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ripper. How about renaming Virginia “the Washington Football Team?”

  22. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Ripper. How about renaming Virginia “the Washington Football Team?”

  23. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    Given the history involved, I say we vote on it but only count the white votes as 3/5 of a person.

    1. Nathan Avatar
      Nathan

      “Given the history involved…”

      You need to brush up on your history. Northern abolitionists argued that slaves shouldn’t count at all, so as to limit the power of slaveholding states in the new government. It was the Southern slaveholding states that wanted them to be fully counted. The 3/5 was a compromise.

      “Granting slaveholding states the right to count three-fifths of their population of enslaved individuals when it came to apportioning representatives to Congress meant that those states would thus be perpetually overrepresented in national politics. However, this same ratio was to be used to determine the federal tax contribution required of each state, thus increasing the direct federal tax burden of slaveholding states.”

      https://www.britannica.com/topic/three-fifths-compromise

      1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
        Eric the Half a Troll

        Oh, yes, those southern were all for their black slaves’ right to vote and be represented in Congress. Thanks for correcting the record… sheesh…!!

        1. Nathan Avatar
          Nathan

          You misrepresent what I said and miss the point completely.

          Many, including you, imply that the the 3/5 measure was an effort by slaveholders to devalue African American slaves. It was exactly the opposite. Counting enslaved people as 3/5 rather than a whole person was done by abolitionists in the North to limit the sway of Southern slaveholding states. Counting them fully would give Southern states even more power federally, and make it that much harder to abolish slavery down the road.

          Northern states believed that if you treat enslaved people like property you shouldn’t be able to count them at all. If they were freed, however, they would be counted fully. African Americans citizens in free states were counted fully.

          The Southern states wanted it both ways. They wanted their slaves to considered property when it suited them, but people with regard to determining the number of U.S. Representatives allotted to each state.

          Go back and do the math. If the Southern states had Representatives based on their total population, they would also have had more had more electoral votes for President and Abraham Lincoln would not have been elected.

          The 3/5 compromise served the purpose of abolition.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      3/5ths? Much too generous. I insist on half a troll.

  24. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
    Eric the Half a Troll

    Given the history involved, I say we vote on it but only count the white votes as 3/5 of a person.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      3/5ths? Much too generous. I insist on half a troll.

    2. Nathan Avatar
      Nathan

      “Given the history involved…”

      You need to brush up on your history. Northern abolitionists argued that slaves shouldn’t count at all, so as to limit the power of slaveholding states in the new government. It was the Southern slaveholding states that wanted them to be fully counted. The 3/5 was a compromise.

      “Granting slaveholding states the right to count three-fifths of their population of enslaved individuals when it came to apportioning representatives to Congress meant that those states would thus be perpetually overrepresented in national politics. However, this same ratio was to be used to determine the federal tax contribution required of each state, thus increasing the direct federal tax burden of slaveholding states.”

      https://www.britannica.com/topic/three-fifths-compromise

      1. Eric the Half a Troll Avatar
        Eric the Half a Troll

        Oh, yes, those southern were all for their black slaves’ right to vote and be represented in Congress. Thanks for correcting the record… sheesh…!!

        1. Nathan Avatar
          Nathan

          You misrepresent what I said and miss the point completely.

          Many, including you, imply that the the 3/5 measure was an effort by slaveholders to devalue African American slaves. It was exactly the opposite. Counting enslaved people as 3/5 rather than a whole person was done by abolitionists in the North to limit the sway of Southern slaveholding states. Counting them fully would give Southern states even more power federally, and make it that much harder to abolish slavery down the road.

          Northern states believed that if you treat enslaved people like property you shouldn’t be able to count them at all. If they were freed, however, they would be counted fully. African Americans citizens in free states were counted fully.

          The Southern states wanted it both ways. They wanted their slaves to considered property when it suited them, but people with regard to determining the number of U.S. Representatives allotted to each state.

          Go back and do the math. If the Southern states had Representatives based on their total population, they would also have had more had more electoral votes for President and Abraham Lincoln would not have been elected.

          The 3/5 compromise served the purpose of abolition.

  25. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I think the whole narrative of “harshly” judging Lee and others for today’s standards rather than those at the time is pretty weak.

    There was a substantial Abolitionist movement , that was decades old – and a large number of people – that were strongly opposed to slavery. It’s not like Lee and others were blissfully unaware of the issue and were “principled” but “misguided” and only defending the life he knew.

    Even during Washington and Jeffersons time, there were opponents to the institution of slavery.

    One of the differences is that the Jim Crow folks latched on to Lee as a hero but as far as I can tell did not do so with Jefferson and Washington.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Plus WWJD really is a standard that had been in place for 1,800 years.

      Now, it could be argued, with the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence, that it was an unused standard by the Framers.

  26. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I think the whole narrative of “harshly” judging Lee and others for today’s standards rather than those at the time is pretty weak.

    There was a substantial Abolitionist movement , that was decades old – and a large number of people – that were strongly opposed to slavery. It’s not like Lee and others were blissfully unaware of the issue and were “principled” but “misguided” and only defending the life he knew.

    Even during Washington and Jeffersons time, there were opponents to the institution of slavery.

    One of the differences is that the Jim Crow folks latched on to Lee as a hero but as far as I can tell did not do so with Jefferson and Washington.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Plus WWJD really is a standard that had been in place for 1,800 years.

      Now, it could be argued, with the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence, that it was an unused standard by the Framers.

  27. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    It sure would help the dialogue if some of the commenters knew a little history and understood Lee’s reasoning for declining Lincoln’s offer for him to command Union forces. Developing an understanding of a subject takes work while popping off shows a lazy mind.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Of course, you are starting from the position that he’s worthy of a mention in the first place.

      “Biographical history, as taught in our public schools, is still largely a history of boneheads: ridiculous kings and queens, paranoid political leaders, compulsive voyagers, ignorant generals — the flotsam and jetsam of historical currents. The men who radically altered history, the great scientists and mathematicians, are seldom mentioned, if at all.” — Martin Gardner

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Yes I am and yes he is. Snarkiness says something about the quality of ones mind.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          It’s not snark. In contribution to the progress of humanity, Robert E. Lee is worth a bucket of warm spit. He taught men that charging cannons is mostly foolhardy and he saved a college. That gives him a place in Virginia history somewhere beneath that of Mary Pope Maybank Hutson.

          OTOH, he put Appomattox Courthouse on the map, and guaranteed Ulysses Grant the presidency.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            The more you write the sillier and ill-informed you appear.

          2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

            Wow! Just WOW! How white of you.

          3. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

          4. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Then you probably should have stopped. I’ve no doubt now.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 14, 2021 at 11:34 am |
            ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

            Wow! Just WOW! How white of you.”

            The fact that you believe that the Civil War was fought by the North to abolish Slavery is rather sad. POTUS Lincoln only engaged to retain the Union. He wasn’t an abolitionist and what I’ve just stated can be found in his own words beneath his Monument.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Just from my POV – the thing about “remembering” Lee is not about Lee.

      Lee himself alluded to that issue.

      I grew up with the belief that Lee was a great man , a noble man, and I still think that but to that I also have to add that he was well aware of the slavery issue and that it was not a “norm” of his time. It was heavily disputed by abolitionists – and he well knew that and still chose to become a General for the Confederacy and to war over it. He did make choices and they are also a valid part of his history.

      How many abolitionists are “remembered” here in Virginia compared to Lee?

      If you are a black man, how do you “remember” Lee? Is it the same as a white man?

      Does a black man stand in front of a statue of Lee on his horse and see him as the great man that some white folks might?

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Our views of Lee should be in the context of the period he lived in and the 80 plus years since the Declaration of Independence. Our nation was conflicted on slavery and even Lincoln was willing to sustain it if by doing that he could maintain the Union.
        Lee’s views are summarized in a letter that he wrote in 1856, “There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially.” He also opposed secession but when faced with a choice chose his ‘country” over the Union.
        We don’t have to agree with his views but it helps to understand them in judging him as a historical figure who deserves respect and honor.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Okay with most of it but ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

          I don’t thinks slaves felt that way. Many of them would have returned to Africa if they had that option. Also, there was sentiment that sending the slaves back to Africa was preferably to “freeing” them to be free men in this country.

          Indeed, even after the Civil War, the idea that they were “free” and actual citizens like white folks was rejected in places like Virginia and the era of Jim Crow was basically about that belief.

          I do not think that Lee, after the Civil War really had it in his heart to free the slaves to be free Americans…

          Again, I give Lee credit for his accomplishments which were not trivial but I also advocate a full and complete context of him and his place in history. He was not about slaves becoming free men and Americans.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            I think that you and I agree on most of this. Nancy managed to take one comment out of context but that doesn’t surprise me. Lee like others in his time did not think slavery was right but didn’t know how to deal with it and thought that emancipation would make the matter worse. I believe that at one point Lee held that slaves would be free when God determined the right time.
            Unfortunately, even after 160 years, blacks are still not accepted by all as equal to whites and deserving of equal rights. We still have a long way to go and that should inform us about the society and norms of the 1800s.

  28. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    It sure would help the dialogue if some of the commenters knew a little history and understood Lee’s reasoning for declining Lincoln’s offer for him to command Union forces. Developing an understanding of a subject takes work while popping off shows a lazy mind.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Of course, you are starting from the position that he’s worthy of a mention in the first place.

      “Biographical history, as taught in our public schools, is still largely a history of boneheads: ridiculous kings and queens, paranoid political leaders, compulsive voyagers, ignorant generals — the flotsam and jetsam of historical currents. The men who radically altered history, the great scientists and mathematicians, are seldom mentioned, if at all.” — Martin Gardner

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Yes I am and yes he is. Snarkiness says something about the quality of ones mind.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          It’s not snark. In contribution to the progress of humanity, Robert E. Lee is worth a bucket of warm spit. He taught men that charging cannons is mostly foolhardy and he saved a college. That gives him a place in Virginia history somewhere beneath that of Mary Pope Maybank Hutson.

          OTOH, he put Appomattox Courthouse on the map, and guaranteed Ulysses Grant the presidency.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

            Wow! Just WOW! How white of you.

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

          3. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            The more you write the sillier and ill-informed you appear.

          4. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Then you probably should have stopped. I’ve no doubt now.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 14, 2021 at 11:34 am |
            ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

            Wow! Just WOW! How white of you.”

            The fact that you believe that the Civil War was fought by the North to abolish Slavery is rather sad. POTUS Lincoln only engaged to retain the Union. He wasn’t an abolitionist and what I’ve just stated can be found in his own words beneath his Monument.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Just from my POV – the thing about “remembering” Lee is not about Lee.

      Lee himself alluded to that issue.

      I grew up with the belief that Lee was a great man , a noble man, and I still think that but to that I also have to add that he was well aware of the slavery issue and that it was not a “norm” of his time. It was heavily disputed by abolitionists – and he well knew that and still chose to become a General for the Confederacy and to war over it. He did make choices and they are also a valid part of his history.

      How many abolitionists are “remembered” here in Virginia compared to Lee?

      If you are a black man, how do you “remember” Lee? Is it the same as a white man?

      Does a black man stand in front of a statue of Lee on his horse and see him as the great man that some white folks might?

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Our views of Lee should be in the context of the period he lived in and the 80 plus years since the Declaration of Independence. Our nation was conflicted on slavery and even Lincoln was willing to sustain it if by doing that he could maintain the Union.
        Lee’s views are summarized in a letter that he wrote in 1856, “There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially.” He also opposed secession but when faced with a choice chose his ‘country” over the Union.
        We don’t have to agree with his views but it helps to understand them in judging him as a historical figure who deserves respect and honor.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Okay with most of it but ” The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, ”

          I don’t thinks slaves felt that way. Many of them would have returned to Africa if they had that option. Also, there was sentiment that sending the slaves back to Africa was preferably to “freeing” them to be free men in this country.

          Indeed, even after the Civil War, the idea that they were “free” and actual citizens like white folks was rejected in places like Virginia and the era of Jim Crow was basically about that belief.

          I do not think that Lee, after the Civil War really had it in his heart to free the slaves to be free Americans…

          Again, I give Lee credit for his accomplishments which were not trivial but I also advocate a full and complete context of him and his place in history. He was not about slaves becoming free men and Americans.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            I think that you and I agree on most of this. Nancy managed to take one comment out of context but that doesn’t surprise me. Lee like others in his time did not think slavery was right but didn’t know how to deal with it and thought that emancipation would make the matter worse. I believe that at one point Lee held that slaves would be free when God determined the right time.
            Unfortunately, even after 160 years, blacks are still not accepted by all as equal to whites and deserving of equal rights. We still have a long way to go and that should inform us about the society and norms of the 1800s.

  29. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Speaking of Marse Robert, I saw his Richmond statue case will be heard by the Virginia Supreme Court soon. Maybe the Marble Man has one more triple summer salt to outflank the Yankees.

  30. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Speaking of Marse Robert, I saw his Richmond statue case will be heard by the Virginia Supreme Court soon. Maybe the Marble Man has one more triple summer salt to outflank the Yankees.

  31. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Nancy, you are either woefully ill informed or attempting to carefully use language to imply that Lee waited a year to join the confederate army. See this article –https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lee-resigns-from-u-s-army#:~:text=Robert%20E.%20Lee%20resigns%20from%20U.S.%20Army%20after,but%20he%20was%20a%20loyal%20son%20of%20Virginia.
    Why don’t you just own up to your strong bias and move on?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      One more time. Lee isn’t worth a bucket of warm spit and for Virginia history to reflect warmly on him is offensive to black Americans for the Southen defense of slavery and all Americans in general for the gaping wound the Civil War remains.

      No, Matt, the Union did not, nor did Lincoln, lead an abolition movement to war. Nor, do I believe that. The Union goal was to keep the Union. That one of the many reasons to preserve the Union was abolition was a happy circumstance for some recruiting and the winning.

      To give the devil his due, perhaps a far more important reason to fight and win than slavery was to keep a hostile nation on the southern border of Texas and not on Maryland’s. Little could they have known that Michigan would be the greater threat 150 years on.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Plain and simple, Nancy’s are the ramblings of a historical illiterate.
        Responding or reading her comments is a big waste of time.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          I’m not a Southern apologist nor romanticize on war in general, so clearly you would have that opinion of me.

          I don’t have any more admiration for any Southern leaders, generals, or soldiers than I would have for those Americans who fought for the British in 1776.

          Neither group are worthy of statues or memorials in places other than cemeteries and the battlefields.

          If you have ancestors who fought for the South, you are entitled to whatever personal history of them that makes you comfortable, but don’t expect the rest of us to hold the South with anything other than contempt.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So there you have it. If you want NN without snark – you got it!

            I think NN often uses snark to lighten up the debates a little , to make his point without a hard push but clearly , if one wants an unvarnished snarkless reply – that’s clearly in NN’s toolbox.

            (and i cannot say I really disagree with his general sentiment).

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “If you have ancestors who fought for the South, you are entitled to whatever personal history of them that makes you comfortable, but don’t expect the rest of us to hold the South with anything other than contempt.”

            But you’re not stating history, your stated distorted history void of fact (with your own personal spin). Who said anything about statues or memorials? This is about judging Lee for the other action of his life, rather than the singular aspect (which you choose). You just set up a strawman, good for you.

            This goes back to the initial argument we first had where you insisted that slaves didn’t remain in the north following the EP. You were wrong and I’m still waiting for your admission that.

            Well the soldiers of the Union didn’t hold the Rebs with as much “contempt” as you and they fought against them, so perhaps it’s you who has the issue.

          3. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            My ancestors had not emigrated from Ireland when the war took place and I don’t hold the south in high regard. Slavery is wrong! However, I have read enough about Robert E Lee to know that he was a special person whose entire life, not just the 4 years of the confederacy, make him a historical figure who deserves respect and admiration. Using your logic, St. Paul is not worthy of being revered as a saint because he persecuted christians before his conversion.
            You are entitled to your opinion; just not your made up facts.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            The problem with Lee, not the man, but his role in history is that he became the hero of Jim Crow and the lost cause.

            Those who reject the lost cause and Jim Crow tend to reject all of their favored “heroes” also.

            One can call it ignorance of history perhaps but I’d also ask if the opinions of black people count in the discussions also?

          5. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Yes, the opinions of black Americans count. I am sure that most revile him but I have never seen the results of a poll. What are the views of the blacks who have attended W&L and VMI? How do they view Jefferson and Lincoln who said that he would keep slavery if it would save the union.
            We should learn from history and not judge it based on today’s knowledge and standards. Otherwise, we all may be on the slippery slope.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Presentism is the new ragging fad.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Lots of polls and most show blacks have a far different view than whites on Civil War “heroes” and especially when depicted as Jim Crow war heroes (on horse) of the Civil War and lost cause.

            Beyond that, there is nothing that Lee really did for blacks that merits them holding him in high esteem.

            It’s just mostly a non-starter. He has no real historical significance for blacks. Not so much they hate or revile him – more than others do hold him in high esteem and don’t really understand “why” because there are lots of “great men” for blacks and very little public-place recognition compared to heroes of the Civil War.

            Some blacks are actually reluctant to say much because they fear there is still white supremacy ongoing and worried that it could re-emerge as it actually has.

          8. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Wouldn’t it be something if he was judged by his qualities as a human being and not by the color of his skin or only the 4 years of confederate service?

          9. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            4 words: Lee Jackson King Day

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 15, 2021 at 12:15 pm |
            4 words: Lee Jackson King Day”

            one word: Politicians

            I’m also rather certain you voted for a good number of them.

          11. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Presentis. Yeah, like the ideals on which the country was found suddenly sprang into being in 1964.

          12. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            Larry et al,

            Do you suppose that there is a different view among Northern whites vs. Southern whites on Lee?

            I suspect that Northern whites do not have nearly the reverence for Lee (and other civil war “heroes”)that Southern whites do.

            In fact, I suspect that most Northern whites view “civil war heroes” on a continuum that varies from indifference to disgust.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: “The Northern View”.

            I don’t know. But I do know there are quite a few “northern” folks that comes to visit the Spotsylvania Battlefield..and there are some monuments at that battlefield that memorialize Union regiments.

            So they come to visit.

            There are no generals astride their steeds here.

            Most of the monuments are to men who fought.

            At the entrance is a monument to Sedgewick from his men to commemorate his death.

            ” There are only a handful of monuments on the Spotsylvania battlefield. The first was dedicated in 1887 to John Sedgwick, the commander of the Union Sixth Corps and the senior United States Army officer to be killed in the Civil War. Three Union regimental monuments at the Bloody Angle and the monument to the Union Maryland Brigade followed from 1902 to 1914. It was eighty years before the next monument was placed on the Spotsylvania Battlefield. In 1994 the Upton’s Charge monument was dedicated, honoring both the Union attackers and the Confederate defenders. The monument to the 17th Michigan followed in 1997.”

            https://stonesentinels.com/spotsylvania/monuments-markers-spotsylvania-battlefield/

            So the thing is , one can “remember” the Civil War in different ways.

            The Marines at Quantico send young officers to Bloody Angle to see the landscape and understand the strategy.

            BUT today, (especially post-COVID), far more visitors come to walk and others to walk their dogs and including black folks.

            As I said earlier, there are no generals astride their steeds..

            And for the most part that’s true at many of the battlefields in and around Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania.

            There is this famous one:

            https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3Mxd3V6aGo1eDkyOTE4ZjYxNTRjMzM5Y2YxNzFfMjAxODAyMDNfMTYxNjQ4LmpwZyJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiMTIwMHg-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/20180203_161648.jpg

            so… very, very different than Richmond or Charlottesville.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          It would but it would be even better if he was remembered as a man by everyone rather than only Jim Crow whites for his role in the Civil War.

          that cuts both ways.

          People are not wrong in asking – what he SHOULD be remembered for beyond his role in the Civil War AND if that other role benefited all Virginians regardless of color.

          Again, I consider him a great man but I am also quite ignorant of other great men that might be black because of my white culture – including my k-12 schooling that really did not educate me about great black men. It was a LOT of white folks and few blacks.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Again, I consider him a great man but I am also quite ignorant of other great men that might be black because of my white culture – including my k-12 schooling that really did not educate me about great black men. It was a LOT of white folks and few blacks.”

            It has nothing to do with “whiteness” it has to do with a lack of history.

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            A very honest comment.

  32. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Nancy, you are either woefully ill informed or attempting to carefully use language to imply that Lee waited a year to join the confederate army. See this article –https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lee-resigns-from-u-s-army#:~:text=Robert%20E.%20Lee%20resigns%20from%20U.S.%20Army%20after,but%20he%20was%20a%20loyal%20son%20of%20Virginia.
    Why don’t you just own up to your strong bias and move on?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      One more time. Lee isn’t worth a bucket of warm spit and for Virginia history to reflect warmly on him is offensive to black Americans for the Southen defense of slavery and all Americans in general for the gaping wound the Civil War remains.

      No, Matt, the Union did not, nor did Lincoln, lead an abolition movement to war. Nor, do I believe that. The Union goal was to keep the Union. That one of the many reasons to preserve the Union was abolition was a happy circumstance for some recruiting and the winning.

      To give the devil his due, perhaps a far more important reason to fight and win than slavery was to keep a hostile nation on the southern border of Texas and not on Maryland’s. Little could they have known that Michigan would be the greater threat 150 years on.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        Plain and simple, Nancy’s are the ramblings of a historical illiterate.
        Responding or reading her comments is a big waste of time.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          I’m not a Southern apologist nor romanticize on war in general, so clearly you would have that opinion of me.

          I don’t have any more admiration for any Southern leaders, generals, or soldiers than I would have for those Americans who fought for the British in 1776.

          Neither group are worthy of statues or memorials in places other than cemeteries and the battlefields.

          If you have ancestors who fought for the South, you are entitled to whatever personal history of them that makes you comfortable, but don’t expect the rest of us to hold the South with anything other than contempt.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So there you have it. If you want NN without snark – you got it!

            I think NN often uses snark to lighten up the debates a little , to make his point without a hard push but clearly , if one wants an unvarnished snarkless reply – that’s clearly in NN’s toolbox.

            (and i cannot say I really disagree with his general sentiment).

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “If you have ancestors who fought for the South, you are entitled to whatever personal history of them that makes you comfortable, but don’t expect the rest of us to hold the South with anything other than contempt.”

            But you’re not stating history, your stated distorted history void of fact (with your own personal spin). Who said anything about statues or memorials? This is about judging Lee for the other action of his life, rather than the singular aspect (which you choose). You just set up a strawman, good for you.

            This goes back to the initial argument we first had where you insisted that slaves didn’t remain in the north following the EP. You were wrong and I’m still waiting for your admission that.

            Well the soldiers of the Union didn’t hold the Rebs with as much “contempt” as you and they fought against them, so perhaps it’s you who has the issue.

          3. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            My ancestors had not emigrated from Ireland when the war took place and I don’t hold the south in high regard. Slavery is wrong! However, I have read enough about Robert E Lee to know that he was a special person whose entire life, not just the 4 years of the confederacy, make him a historical figure who deserves respect and admiration. Using your logic, St. Paul is not worthy of being revered as a saint because he persecuted christians before his conversion.
            You are entitled to your opinion; just not your made up facts.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            The problem with Lee, not the man, but his role in history is that he became the hero of Jim Crow and the lost cause.

            Those who reject the lost cause and Jim Crow tend to reject all of their favored “heroes” also.

            One can call it ignorance of history perhaps but I’d also ask if the opinions of black people count in the discussions also?

          5. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Yes, the opinions of black Americans count. I am sure that most revile him but I have never seen the results of a poll. What are the views of the blacks who have attended W&L and VMI? How do they view Jefferson and Lincoln who said that he would keep slavery if it would save the union.
            We should learn from history and not judge it based on today’s knowledge and standards. Otherwise, we all may be on the slippery slope.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Presentism is the new ragging fad.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Lots of polls and most show blacks have a far different view than whites on Civil War “heroes” and especially when depicted as Jim Crow war heroes (on horse) of the Civil War and lost cause.

            Beyond that, there is nothing that Lee really did for blacks that merits them holding him in high esteem.

            It’s just mostly a non-starter. He has no real historical significance for blacks. Not so much they hate or revile him – more than others do hold him in high esteem and don’t really understand “why” because there are lots of “great men” for blacks and very little public-place recognition compared to heroes of the Civil War.

            Some blacks are actually reluctant to say much because they fear there is still white supremacy ongoing and worried that it could re-emerge as it actually has.

          8. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Wouldn’t it be something if he was judged by his qualities as a human being and not by the color of his skin or only the 4 years of confederate service?

          9. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            4 words: Lee Jackson King Day

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nancy_Naive | February 15, 2021 at 12:15 pm |
            4 words: Lee Jackson King Day”

            one word: Politicians

            I’m also rather certain you voted for a good number of them.

          11. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Presentis. Yeah, like the ideals on which the country was found suddenly sprang into being in 1964.

          12. idiocracy Avatar
            idiocracy

            Larry et al,

            Do you suppose that there is a different view among Northern whites vs. Southern whites on Lee?

            I suspect that Northern whites do not have nearly the reverence for Lee (and other civil war “heroes”)that Southern whites do.

            In fact, I suspect that most Northern whites view “civil war heroes” on a continuum that varies from indifference to disgust.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: “The Northern View”.

            I don’t know. But I do know there are quite a few “northern” folks that comes to visit the Spotsylvania Battlefield..and there are some monuments at that battlefield that memorialize Union regiments.

            So they come to visit.

            There are no generals astride their steeds here.

            Most of the monuments are to men who fought.

            At the entrance is a monument to Sedgewick from his men to commemorate his death.

            ” There are only a handful of monuments on the Spotsylvania battlefield. The first was dedicated in 1887 to John Sedgwick, the commander of the Union Sixth Corps and the senior United States Army officer to be killed in the Civil War. Three Union regimental monuments at the Bloody Angle and the monument to the Union Maryland Brigade followed from 1902 to 1914. It was eighty years before the next monument was placed on the Spotsylvania Battlefield. In 1994 the Upton’s Charge monument was dedicated, honoring both the Union attackers and the Confederate defenders. The monument to the 17th Michigan followed in 1997.”

            https://stonesentinels.com/spotsylvania/monuments-markers-spotsylvania-battlefield/

            So the thing is , one can “remember” the Civil War in different ways.

            The Marines at Quantico send young officers to Bloody Angle to see the landscape and understand the strategy.

            BUT today, (especially post-COVID), far more visitors come to walk and others to walk their dogs and including black folks.

            As I said earlier, there are no generals astride their steeds..

            And for the most part that’s true at many of the battlefields in and around Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania.

            There is this famous one:

            https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3Mxd3V6aGo1eDkyOTE4ZjYxNTRjMzM5Y2YxNzFfMjAxODAyMDNfMTYxNjQ4LmpwZyJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiMTIwMHg-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/20180203_161648.jpg

            so… very, very different than Richmond or Charlottesville.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          It would but it would be even better if he was remembered as a man by everyone rather than only Jim Crow whites for his role in the Civil War.

          that cuts both ways.

          People are not wrong in asking – what he SHOULD be remembered for beyond his role in the Civil War AND if that other role benefited all Virginians regardless of color.

          Again, I consider him a great man but I am also quite ignorant of other great men that might be black because of my white culture – including my k-12 schooling that really did not educate me about great black men. It was a LOT of white folks and few blacks.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Again, I consider him a great man but I am also quite ignorant of other great men that might be black because of my white culture – including my k-12 schooling that really did not educate me about great black men. It was a LOT of white folks and few blacks.”

            It has nothing to do with “whiteness” it has to do with a lack of history.

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            A very honest comment.

  33. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Only Virginia could celebrate something called Lee, Jackson, King Day, so I propose a new Virginia holiday:

    “Bacon Turner Rebellion Day”

    celebrating the famous short-order cook strike that resulted in tens of thousands of strips of bacon being over cooked.

  34. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Only Virginia could celebrate something called Lee, Jackson, King Day, so I propose a new Virginia holiday:

    “Bacon Turner Rebellion Day”

    celebrating the famous short-order cook strike that resulted in tens of thousands of strips of bacon being over cooked.

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