Bacon's Rebellion

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Note to Hybrid and EV Owners and Those in Collisions with Them – Don’t Try to Extinguish a Battery Fire

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sherlockj
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by James C. Sherlock

CNBC reported today as breaking news a concern about hybrid and electric vehicle fires that professional firefighters have known about for some time.

Vehicles with lithium-ion batteries can be especially dangerous when they catch fire.

CNBC offers a video showing smoke billowing from three electric pickups parked tightly together.

Moments later, flames shoot several feet above the vehicles, which were unoccupied.

Fires involving EV batteries can burn hotter and longer and require new techniques to extinguish, posing a growing challenge to first responders.

Hybrid electrics, which have both a high voltage battery and an internal combustion engine, have a 3.4% likelihood of vehicle fires according to a study, far higher than either internal combustion or electric alone.

Spontaneous combustion of an EV battery is unlikely, but collisions are a concern.

Tesla publishes an EV firefighting guide.  Warnings include:

Fire Professionals report there are no effective techniques or equipment to extinguish the fires.

The truth of the matter is there is no simple solution or tool to stop a thermal runaway in an EV’s high-voltage battery. Directly cooling the battery cells is the best method, however the manufacturers do not give first responders direct access to the inside of the battery box. Trying to cool the battery cells from the outside will only extend a crew’s time on scene.

If the battery box is intact and there are no exposures, the best solution is to simply wait for the battery to burn itself out, then extinguish the remaining class A fire.

For the rest of us, even those driving internal combustion vehicles who may get in a mishap with an EV or hybrid vehicle, just get away and stay away and upwind of any fire.

You may be there for a while.

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104 responses to “Note to Hybrid and EV Owners and Those in Collisions with Them – Don’t Try to Extinguish a Battery Fire”

  1. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    Higher end EV have battery cutoffs, most of the time 2 or more. I believe the McLaren P1 has 2, one for the low voltage the second of the hybrid battery. They are clearly labeled for fire departments and first responders.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      So THAT’S what you get for the extra $1.5 million…

      😉

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        That 900 hp and a very expensive bill for any repairs, because the entire car is carbon fiber.

        I believe the hybrid battery (third party produced) will cost you $600,000 to replace.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Yes, and the top-of-the-line edition of that car is priced at something like $7.000,000.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’d prefer an Aston, just call me James.

          2. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            If I had $1.5 million to spend on a car, I’d buy a new mid-engine Corvette and pocket the remaining $1.375 million.

            It out-performs cars that cost between 3 and 10 times its price. In my opinion, it is the first Corvette to legitimately be able to claim “super-car” status. It is a genuinely awesome achievement by Chevrolet, especially in the “bang-for-your-buck” category.

            Regrettably, though, I do not have a spare $110,000 to $125,000 lying around…

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Sounds like a wise decision. If I were to buy something along those lines it would be a Shelby GT-350R.

          4. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            I certainly won’t try to change your mind. That’s a nice car.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That or if I’m feeling rich, I suppose a R35 GTR.

    2. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      My Mustang has an electric fuel pump cutoff that disconnects in a collision. Ford thoughtfully hid it behind a panel in the trunk. Push its button to reset it.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        I’ve always had a fascination/love for the Mustang. I suppose it’s from my father who spoke of the one his parents had. However, I have to many family bodies to adequately fit into one at this point.

        In that topic the flat plane crank sound of the voodoo is something to behold.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          I recently sold my bright red 1995 GT convertible to my granddaughter. She loves it – but then again what 16 year-old wouldn’t, right?

          It’s not the most attractive Mustang ever built, of course, but it’s handling characteristics are far superior to earlier models and even, in my opinion to its immediate successor. And who could complain about that 5.0L V-8?

          I like the looks of the more recent Mustangs, but I’ve decided to save my pennies to buy a C-5 or C-6 Corvette. I recently drove a friend’s C-5 on some twisty, hilly, back roads and was very impressed ( so was my friend – he said it had never been driven that hard before). It has all the power and handing capabilities I’ll ever need, unless I decide to return to the race track, which I’m not going to do…

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            You certainly are correct on what 16 old would mind. When I was looking for my first car, I test drove a clapped out 1994 Mustang. My dad was worried about it being too much power for me, well needless to say, there wasn’t anything left in the tank. For better or worse (better for my wallet) my first car was a 97 Pontiac Sunfire, in the scheme of things, it was a good first car (5 spd).

            I’m a fan of the sound and looks of the new Mustangs. Yes, for all the talk the old Mustangs had awful handling. I’ve always heard the Corvette’s have great handling, my college roommate bought a 80’s Greenwood Corvette. I thought it was goofy on the inside, had an analog speedo up to 85 and the digital (knight rider style) after 85. Needless to say, it moved and you weren’t aware how fast you were going.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Subframe connectors made a noticeable handling improvement to Fox-body Mustangs.

          3. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            If nothing else, a 5-speed Pontiac Sunfire will teach you a lot about maintaining speed on corner entry. Go into a curve a little too slow and it takes a loooooong time to regain that lost speed, but it takes no time at all to ‘regain’ speed you never lost in the first place.

            I cut my teeth racing motorcycles in the lightweight classes on a Kawasaki 500 cc twin and a 400cc 4-cylinder Yamaha. The lack of raw power forced me to pay very close attention to preserving every mph I could when entering and executing turns.

          4. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Small world, mine’s a ’98 GT convertible, candy apple red, same body. Not beautiful, but not bad looking. Still fun to row around with the 5 speed. By ’98 they were pushing the 4.6L so it makes more noise than speed (my eco-boost F150 is faster). But at better than 150k miles it has been both fun and reliable. Some of the used ‘vettes are pretty good deals if you can find one that’s not been flogged too hard.

            Although I never got beyond street racing, it’s fun to be still driving a V8 Ford after all these years, now where’d that Maybelline get off to?

            Long ago my Dad had a ‘vette, a 327/300. My early Olds 442 was faster, lighter and handled better.

          5. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            I have an uncle who had a 442 when I was about 12 years old.

            I loved that car.

          6. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Still got mine, but it needs work. It has not been out of the garage in too many years. It’s a ’64 1/2, the year they were introduced in response to the GTO.

          7. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            I once broke the rear sway bar in my ’95 GT just as I hit the apex of an 85 mph right-hand sweeper.

            Let me tell you, that will get your attention. It was the only incident throughout my time owning the car during which I honestly thought I was going to crash. Fortunately I did not crash, and after limping the car home with the right rear about 2-1/2 feet higher off the ground than the left rear, I took the opportunity to install a beefier rear sway bar.

            One thing that greatly improved the behavior of that car at the front end was a strut-tower brace. And come to think of it, it did not just benefit the front end. It all but eliminated body roll, except at the most [how should I put it] brisk pace.

          8. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Ouch, high speed moments that get “interesting” are not fun. Things happen quickly. Fatter sway bars from folks like Hellwig are good, and easy, handling upgrades. Interesting on the handling effect of the strut tower brace. Convertibles don’t have good body rigidity or much protection if they get upside down.

            That ’64 442 was unique among the GM muscle cars in that it had a rear sway bar along with the heavier frame, shocks and springs. With big tires all around it actually handled surprisingly well as well as burying the speedometer.

      2. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Ford’s been doing that for years, putting fuel pump cutoffs that disconnect in a collision. Think they started that in the 80s.

    3. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      The Chevy Volt has a main contactor which disconnects the HV battery in the event of a collision.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        I figured it was a rather common occurrence, I think the only issue would be what triggers the disconnect.

        Along the same lines Lamborghini cabriolets use an explosive charged stanchion that is shoot from the b pillars to keep you from being crushed in the event of a rollover.

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          In the Volt airbags going off will definitely trigger the disconnect. I can’t recall if you have to use a scantool to re-enable the HV battery or if just turning the car off and back on again will do it.

          1. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            That’s a good idea. Airbag deployment = Battery disconnect.

            All hybrids and EVs should have that feature, if they don’t already.

            Of course, depending upon the force of a collision, and the amount of physical damage to the batteries, disconnecting them may not prevent a fire.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Yeah, that would be my concern. Air bags at least what I recall are set to deploy from a 5 mph or higher collision from head on. I’d want to “pump those numbers up, they are rookie numbers” for a battery cutoff.

  2. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    Higher end EV have battery cutoffs, most of the time 2 or more. I believe the McLaren P1 has 2, one for the low voltage the second of the hybrid battery. They are clearly labeled for fire departments and first responders.

  3. emjak Avatar
    emjak

    It’s not just an issue with electric cars. Take a look at a Consumer Reports article concerning the fire hazards associated with e-bikes. https://www.consumerreports.org/health/electric-bikes/electric-bike-fires-and-lithium-ion-batteries-a4632489902/

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      I guess the only solution is to go “old school” with your powered bicycle:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f72066ac63fad0bf604c78156de2cf58febb6c2ec8fb96c74fe32d87e80f4551.jpg

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      Or you could go with one of these. They are not very expensive at all:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/93efcafbd8ff5d3e783aed706e6ddb22c9d24c6b3ba74a30bd11e6c7eebf0f46.jpg

    3. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      e-bikes are not built to the same standards as electric vehicles. They are built to be cheap with lots of “value engineering”.

  4. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    “Hybrid electrics, which have both a high voltage battery and an internal combustion engine, have a 3.4% likelihood of vehicle fires according to a study, far higher than either internal combustion or electric alone.”

    Got a link to some support for that?

    It would not be surprising that hybrids have the sum of the risk of both technologies. It seems unlikely that either battery or internal combustion vehicles have as much as a 1.5% incidence of fires or that hybrids would have a far higher rate.

  5. WayneS Avatar
    WayneS

    Good advice. Vehicle fires are quite dangerous, battery fires even more so.

    This reminds me of another type of fire which is darned near impossible to extinguish with conventional firefighting tools – a magnesium fire. Magnesium burns white-hot, and looking into the flames is like looking at an arc welder – not a good idea. They are notoriously difficult to extinguish.

    A long time ago (late ’70s) I witnessed a vehicle fire involving an early-model VW Beetle which had a magnesium engine block. The fire did not start with the engine, but eventually it got hot enough in the engine compartment to ignite the magnesium engine block. Once that happened, the firefighters simply stepped back and waited for it to burn itself out. It took a long time, and when it was finally over there was a sizeable amount of melted asphalt and steel under what remained of the car. I suspected at the time that the source of ignition was some kind of electrical short or malfunction with the vehicle’s lead-acid battery, but I don’t know for sure.

    That was a memorable occasion, and I am certain there have been a lot fewer magnesium engine-block fires in the past than the number of battery fires we are going to experience as EVs take over the world.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      ” I suspected at the time that the source of ignition was some kind of electrical short or malfunction with the vehicle’s lead-acid battery, but I don’t know for sure.”

      On that note, I’m glad that fusible links have gone the way of Betamax VCRs and 8-track tapes.

      Too easy for some dum-dum to replace them with a regular piece of wire, and they can apparently (from what I read; never saw it myself) arc and burn before opening the circuit).

  6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    This is per plan. They don’t want us to drive gas or EV. Get ready for forced public transportation. The liberty of driving yourself wherever you want will only be for the bourgeois by mid century.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      Clean, safe, efficient public transportation, with junkies shooting up in the corner (and maybe, if it gets bad enough, running the train).

  7. kls Avatar
    kls

    And the carbon footprint is…..?

  8. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    “Spontaneous combustion of an EV battery is unlikely,”

    Dirty contacts having increased resistance generate heat which further increases resistance that generates more heat. There are a lot of contacts connecting cells in an EV or hybrid battery that can fail, and have. “unlikely”, eh, not so much. Current batteries have high electrical capacity that makes them dangerous when they malfunction or are damaged. There are a lot of watts to be converted to heat when something goes wrong.

    My dear old Dad, an EE, used to observe that “90% of the world’s problems are dirty contacts”. He would pause and follow up with something along the lines of “Like Nixon and Bebe Rebozo”. His electrical point being that failures are mostly found at the connections, rather than inside components or wires. That diagnostic advice has served me well over the years.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Yep, the more resistance the more likelihood of failure at that specific point.

    2. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      Electricians have a saying: “Loose wires cause fires”.

      It’s true.

      At least on the Chevy Volt, I’m pretty sure the intercell connections are welded, not bolted.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        Hasn’t Chevy had at least one recall on Bolt battery interconnects?

        The Chevrolet Bolt has been under one recall or another since late 2020, with fires reported as a result of defective battery modules. The problem appeared to be fixed, but reemerged in late August, prompting GM to initiate another recall and to stop production of new Bolt EV and Bolt EUV as it and battery supplier LG Chem seek to discover the problem at the root of the fires.

        https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/another-chevrolet-bolt-has-caught-fire-this-time-in-georgia/

        edit to make Bolt specific and add link

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          There’s three different vehicles you could be referring to there:

          Volt Gen 1 (2011-2015)
          Volt Gen 2 (2016-)
          Bolt (all years)

          They all use different batteries.

          No recall on the Volt Gen 1 for battery interconnects that I’m aware of.

    3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      Important Point-
      Spontaneous combustion of Li-batts is not always unlikely, as in dunking in sea water: Hurricane Sandy saw a really expensive fleet of Fisker Karma Plug-ins and some Prius Plug-ins go up in smoke after sea water contact on the NJ docks, and who can forget just one year ago The 200 meter long cargo ship Felicity Ace sank after a fire that broke out on board, and lasted for 13 days, reports the news agency AP. The ship was transporting around 4,000 cars and EVs between Germany and the United States, but apparently EV cause could not be proved, but impossible to extinguish.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        Guess it depends on what the meaning of “spontaneous” is. There was a cause, we may not know what it was, but something happened that made the batteries fire up. In many cases a good bet is dirty contacts.

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          I saw a YT video where someone mixed up salt water and poured it on a 120v plug-in power strip.

          It arced and burned.

          They did the same with regular water, nothing happened.

          Salt water is bad news for anything electrical.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            That’s called being a “conductor” as opposed to pure water being an “insulator” in addition to salt water’s corrosive properties.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I’m well aware that salt water is a very good conductor. So it should not be surprising that an EV soaked in it would have a very bad reaction.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Seems like another hint of what can cause supposedly “spontaneous” battery fires.

            Bet salt water immersion (along with other contaminants) in a storm surge could cause a lot of cells to short.

            If a battery burns under water can you see the flames?

  9. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    “Hybrid electrics, which have both a high voltage battery and an internal combustion engine, have a 3.4% likelihood of vehicle fires according to a study, far higher than either internal combustion or electric alone.”

    Got a link to some support for that?

    It would not be surprising that hybrids have the sum of the risk of both technologies. It seems unlikely that either battery or internal combustion vehicles have as much as a 1.5% incidence of fires or that hybrids would have a far higher rate.

    1. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      That figure may have come from this article:

      https://www.carscoops.com/2022/01/hybrid-drivers-face-the-greatest-risk-of-car-fire-ev-drivers-the-smallest/

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        Interesting, thanks. Clearly not what I expected. Curious.

      2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        Sounds pro-EV disinformation

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          Perhaps, but they provide the source of their numbers (some insurance company).

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      I can find it.

    3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      agreed

  10. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    Bring back the Pinto!

  11. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    It is important to realize we have three (3) classes of electric vehicles:

    (1) Hybrids (no Plug) Like my Prius and RAV4HV. “Small” battery and many not lithium (often NiMH). Mine are NiMH. Toyota historically likes NiMH but may be trending to more Lithium.

    (2) Plug-In Hybrids – Fairly big lithium battery. USA mandates battery must be pretty good size to qualify for rebates. I only see a few of these around here, but Prius PRIME, RAV4 PRIME and maybe the only one now qualifying for $7500 rebate (USA made) is Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in Minivan.

    (3) Full Electric Big Lithium Batteries…Tesla etc.

    The latter two categories are higher potential as far as lithium fire. All versions would have high voltage wires as far as emergency response awareness.

    But I think lumping Toyota hybrids with EV’s fire potential is not so good…

    >>>where is this statement coming from: “Hybrid electrics, which have both a high voltage battery and an internal combustion engine, have a 3.4% likelihood of vehicle fires according to a study, far higher than either internal combustion or electric alone.” Most are Prius and there is very low incidence of fire

  12. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    That “CarScoops” article is B.S. about hybrids. Toyota hybrids like Prius, Camry, RAV4, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Corolla have very little fire hazard. And that is probably 95%+ of the Hybrids. The article is apparently referencing fire incidence in Plug-in hybrids, for which there are not many on the roads, so the stats may represent small sample size, and perhaps a few elec system problems in some non-Toyota vehicles.

    Like so many EV-advocacy articles, CarScoops is trying to say EV’s are super safe, and should be mandated. Be careful reading out there.

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Ford Fusion also looks like a low hazard hybrid.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Any vehicle with a high voltage system (100v-300v) plug in or not can be a fire hazard. They utilize either nickel metal hydride (Ni-MH) or Lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries, which if exposed to flame are very dangerous and hard to extinguish.

      While the Ni-MH will not combust when exposed to O2, it does give off H2 (which everyone has seen the Hindenburg).

      There are also a good number of plug-in hybrids on the roads today, the notion that there is not is false. They are utilized by the high end manufactures to achieve higher horsepower numbers.

      https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybrid-car-suv-vehicles/

      1. WayneS Avatar
        WayneS

        Oh, the humanity!

      2. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Even a 12V car battery has more than enough energy to start a fire.

        My favorite Forensic Files episode about this:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmDTGg5Qfbo&t=4s&ab_channel=FilmRiseTrueCrime

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Your point?

          The fire potential of a 300 high voltage battery pack is far more significant than a 12v system.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Maybe, maybe not. The 300V high voltage electrical system in an EV/hybrid is MUCH better protected against damage and tampering than the 12V system in a regular vehicle.

            The system in the Chevy Volt actually detects ground faults (the 300V system is not connected to chassis ground—GM calls it a loss of isolation, I call it a ground fault) and will shut the HV system down if one is detected.

            It will also detect if a HV connector has been disconnected from a device (such as from the electric AC compressor or the 300V to 12V power supply) and shut the HV system down.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Maybe, maybe not. The 300V high voltage electrical system in an EV/hybrid is MUCH better protected against damage and tampering than the 12V system in a regular vehicle.”

            They have the ability to be isolated, that’s the only difference between them and a 12v system. They are designed to be isolated for maintenance and possible accident.

            “The system in the Chevy Volt actually detects ground faults (the 300V system is not connected to chassis ground—GM calls it a loss of isolation, I call it a ground fault) and will shut the HV system down if one is detected.

            It will also detect if a HV connector has been disconnected from a device (such as from the electric AC compressor or the 300V to 12V power supply) and shut the HV system down.”

            Those are fine mitigation efforts, however battery combustion from an accident where there is a fire is not going to stop. The fire hazard itself is the battery material.

          3. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The 300V battery location in the Volt is very well protected from accidents. Any accident that would cause the battery to be damaged to the point of catching on fire would likely kill everyone in the car. Can’t speak about the other hybrids/EVs, I don’t know where their battery is in the vehicle.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            All Chevy volts from 2017-2022 were recalled because of fire potential.

            https://www.4injured.com/blog/after-new-battery-fire-gm-recalls-every-chevy-volt-vehicle-ever-made/

            I don’t know how you can say the battery is protected from accidents, it’s part of the subframe. The Volt has documented issues with fire.

            None of what I’m saying is condemning EV’s or hybrids. It’s simply saying there is an inherent risk and unless you produce a FMEA/DFMEA that says without a doubt it’s not a concern it is a concern.

          5. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “All Chevy volts from 2017-2022 were recalled because of fire potential.”

            Attention to detail is important.

            Despite the title, that article is talking about the Chevy Bolt, not the Volt. (The last year of the Volt was 2019 which should be a clue that the article is wrong…)

            The Bolt is not a plug-in hybrid, the Volt is.

            The Bolt has a much larger battery than the Volt.

            I am talking about the *VOLT* when I say that the battery is well protected against an accident. It is located as near the center of the vehicle and low to the ground as it can possibly be.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The article is referring to the Volt but mistakenly referenced the Bolt.

            Despite your ideas otherwise, hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars pose a more significant fire hazard. That’s is the nature of the components that the system is made of.

            Low to the ground and in the center means nothing, it can still be damaged and case a fire if ruptured.

            I’m not against EV’s, hybrids, or plug-in hybrids but saying their batteries don’t pose a greater risk to fire is fallacious.

          7. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “Low to the ground and in the center means nothing”

            Less likely to be damaged in a front-end or rear-end collision than if it were under the hood or in the trunk. Most collisions are front-end and rear-end. The engineers took this into account when deciding where to place the battery.

            You should know, if you don’t already, that these vehicles have to pass the same crash testing that all other vehicles have to pass. If the battery catches fire, that’s a fail.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The NHTSA passes vehicles based upon criteria. The volt caught on fire, it didn’t fail.

            “You should know, if you don’t already, that these vehicles have to pass the same crash testing that all other vehicles have to pass. If the battery catches fire, that’s a fail.”

            https://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-volt-catches-fire-at-nhtsa-facility-sparks-investigation-of-battery-packs-135313/

            Does that says it will always catch fire, no. It is a FMEA, and they mitigate those as much as possible using the DFMEA process. It does not mean it won’t happen or it can’t happen.

            According to the NHTSA rear end, angle and sideswipes are most common.

          9. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, it caught fire 3 weeks AFTER the crash and GM implemented a fix to prevent it. They added a level sensor to the battery coolant tank to detect a leak and shut down the HV system. The theory is that the crash damaged the coolant system in the battery and caused a leak.

            I’m unlikely to park any vehicle that has been in a crash, let alone one bad enough I had to get it towed, in my garage, or anywhere near my house, so I’m not very concerned about it.

            On the other hand, if you had an 80s or early 90s Ford with the defective United Technologies ignition switch…that could catch fire when parked with the ignition off.

            Or if you had a late 90s/early 2000s Ford with the defective Texas Instruments brake pressure switch…that could catch fire when parked with the ignition off.

            There’s a reason why if you buy a replacement 2G alternator for a Ford that it always comes with a new pigtail for the output connector. Seems the two 1/4″ spade terminals they used (instead of a threaded stud and nut) is prone to overheating (and possibly catching fire).

            Just a few examples where even the lowly 12V electrical system that some people think is “safe” (it can’t electrocute you!) is more than capable of causing a fire.

            I don’t doubt for a minute that this complacency with 12V electrical systems has resulted in fires due to bad engineering or lack of care with repairs or modifications.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            When you move to a whataboutism argument, you’ve lost.

            12v = 10 amps max

            300v = 600 amps max

            Mitigation is mitigation, it doesn’t not say it cannot happen.

            You’re free to believe what you’d like, it’s just not scientifically correct.

          11. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “12v = 10 amps max”

            A car battery can put out a lot more than that.

            If you’ve ever noticed, batteries have CCA ratings. A group 75 battery (typical GM side post battery) for example, can put out 650 CCA or more. That’s cold cranking amps.

            That battery can deliver 650 amps at 0F for 30 seconds without dropping below 7.2V

            That’s more than enough to melt metal.

            Even a little 7ah battery like that used in alarm panels can put out enough current to melt the insulation on 18AWG wire instantly in the event of a short circuit.

            Bottom line: Car batteries can put out more than enough energy to start a fire.

            You call it “whataboutism”, I call it “reality”.

            More vehicles have caught fire due to faulty or damaged or tampered 12V electrical systems than EVs have ever caught fire.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            If you’re discussing purely EV’s, it’s far to early to make such a statement. If you’re talking about hybrids, you’re dead wrong.

            The risk is there, but you seek to discount the high voltage side of an EV, that’s is fallacious reasoning.

            If you were discussing reality, you would view EVs and hybrids as they are, not as you wish them to be.

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Hybrids have a gasoline engine connected to a tank filled with very flammable gasoline. Might account for their greater involvement in fires.

          14. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Well no, they are more likely to burst into flames than an standard ICE vehicle.

            Statistically speaking, hybrids have a fire occurrence at a rate of 3474.5 per 100k. ICE 1529.9 per 100k and EVs 25.1 per 100k on limited data.

            Batteries and their chemical makeups are a danger to first responders not only through electrical hazards but possible compromised structure. All items have there inherent risks that should be dealt with accordingly.

          15. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            But many of the older hybrids don’t use lithium-ion batteries. They use nickel metal hydride batteries, which are supposedly safer. Would be interesting to see if older hybrids are less likely to be involved in a fire. I suspect not.

          16. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            True enough, yes NiMH batteries aren’t explosive when exposed to O2 like Li-ion, but they off gas H2.

          17. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            According to what I read, NiMH batteries don’t off-gas H2 under normal circumstances, only if they are overcharged. This makes them similar to AGM aka valve regulated lead-acid batteries. I once overcharged a small 7 amp hour AGM battery by trying to charge it from an unregulated 12V supply, I could hear it venting, it was making soft popping noises as the gas was being vented. (These AGM batteries have a rubber cover over the vents which is designed only to vent once the internal pressure inside the battery reaches some level, perhaps 5 PSI–unsure of the exact setting).

            Lesson learned, unregulated 12V supplies don’t make good battery chargers–the output voltage into a charged 12V battery can be as high as 15V, which is too much. A lab power supply with adjustable current and voltage regulation? Those work great as battery chargers.

          18. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Correct, but we aren’t speaking of normal circumstances. We are speaking of failure modes and what happens.

            Yes, an unregulated power supply in any fashion is not wise to charge any type of battery. I would still be hesitant to even use a adjustable power supply unless in a pinch, off the shelf chargers work just fine and are relatively cheap (compared to a lab power supply).

          19. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Also, the issue with Li-ion seems not to be when they’re exposed to oxygen–there’s no elemental lithium in these batteries, it’s chemically combined–but when they are short-circuited.

            REF: “Lithium is extremely reactive in its elemental form. That’s why lithium-ion batteries don’t use elemental lithium. Instead, lithium-ion batteries typically contain a lithium-metal oxide, such as lithium-cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). This supplies the lithium-ions.”

            I’ve abused a few old Li-ion batteries and nothing much happens.

            OTOH, I once stabbed a fully-charged Li-ion pouch cell from an iphone with a letter opener and it made quite the impressive fireball. The letter opener short-circuited the battery, is why it did that.

          20. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            LiCoO2 is a type of Lithium-ion battery, there are many. LiCoO2 is susceptible to thermal runaway if improperly charged or used at high temps.

            Unless you bridged the anode and cathode with your letter opener you didn’t short it, you opened the circuit. A short would cause the battery to enter thermal runaway and explode.

          21. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I definitely bridged the anode and cathode with the letter opener. It shorted and caught fire.

            There are, as I recall, other types of lithium-ion batteries that are not as susceptible to thermal runaway.

          22. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I assure, that you didn’t bridge it. If had bridged it, you would be less a hand if not more. IOT to bridge the anode and cathode, you would’ve had to jam the letter opener complete through the battery, while I assume you’re strong, you’re not that strong.

            Shorts take milliseconds to react and are explosive, opens not so much.

            All lithium-ion batteries are susceptible to thermal runway, they are required to have thermal circuit protections for that very reason.

          23. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Have you ever seen a lithium-ion pouch cell? They’re not very strong. They’re made of thin sheets of metal and plastic. You could easily fold one in half. I did in fact jam that letter opener right through the cell, and, due to the alternating layer construction of the pouch cell (anode/separator/cathode), it bridged the anode and cathode on it’s way through.

            The battery did not explode. It simply caught fire and burned vigorously. Given how weak a lithium ion pouch cell is, it couldn’t explode. An explosion requires the buildup and release of pressure. A pouch cell couldn’t contain the pressure–even if it didn’t have a hole in the side from a letter opener.

          24. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            If you were able to puncture through, I would presume it was a cell battery. Which doesn’t contain the material or capacity to cause significant event.

          25. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It was just a cell, a pouch cell. There are also cylindrical cells like the 18650 (commonly used in laptop batteries). You would not be able to easily puncture these, they have a metal casing like a typical AA cell, making them much more resistant to physical damage. At least one EV manufacturer has used 18650 cells.

          26. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Roger, I’ve watched several videos on constructing EV’s battery packs and the safety’s put in place on them. I’m not against them, I just want people and first responders to be aware the potential risks. Everyone knows the risks with ICE, but they don’t with EV’s. FR should know the point at which they should just mitigate and let the fire burn as they will be unable to put it out and possibly place themselves in danger.

          27. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “Everyone knows the risks with ICE”

            You’d think, but there are still people who do things like use washer fluid hose for fuel line.

            Saw a video about someone who lowered his car so much he had to hack off the fuel filler pipe, has to remove the wheel to fill it, and keeps it sealed with duct tape between fill ups.

            The scary part is, he probably votes, too.

          28. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Just found what I referenced in the previous post:

            https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-golf-slammed-so-low-it-cant-refuel-without-taking-a-wheel-off

      3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        True that first responders will need to be careful about new cars with high voltage batteries, but painting all Hybrids as fire hazards is an huge inaccuracy of this article.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          They pose a significantly higher more significant fire risk than an ICE vehicle. That’s just the nature of the components.

    3. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      Thanks.

  13. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    The problem here is conflating types of electrics
    We have:
    Hybrids– no plug – very safe to date
    Plug-in Hybrids not so many on the roads
    Full Electrics EVs

    The piece above is basically calling Plug-In Hybrids the same as Hybrids, and painting all Hybrids with wrong dis-information

  14. Tom B Avatar
    Tom B

    While Li battery fires are difficult to extinguish, I’m more concerned about the residue from the blaze. As we rush headlong into an EV future, it seems we face unavoidable pollution of the food supply with Li, a psychoactive drug, that escapes into the ground water from improper disposal of used batteries and residue from fire control measures. I’ll choose CO2 over that.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      How about lead from lead-acid batteries?

      At late as 1983, the preferred method of disposal of lead-acid batteries at Quantico Marine Corps Base involved dumping the acid into a hole in the ground and burying the rest.

      Can anyone tell me if in 1983 the private sector was required to recycle them?

      1. Tom B Avatar
        Tom B

        I’m not sure what your point is.

        Lead from batteries certainly needs to be recycled, and according to EPA, most is recycled.
        Pound for pound, Li has a stronger effect on humans than lead.

        A car contains 1 lead battery weighing ~25 pounds (most EVs also have a 12v lead battery). The Li battery pack in an EV weighs hundreds of pounds, and is more dangerous.
        If your point is to draw an equivalency between Li and lead, I strongly disagree.

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          There’s a LOT more lead-acid batteries out there than lithium-ion batteries, and even today, they aren’t always properly disposed of.

          There’s also not as much lithium in these batteries as you might think:

          “A typical EV battery has about 8 kilograms of lithium”

          https://blog.evbox.com/ev-battery-weight#:~:text=A%20typical%20EV%20battery%20has,(138%20pounds)%20of%20lithium.

          Additionally, lithium is not currently regulated in the USA in drinking water, and it does occur naturally:

          https://www.usgs.gov/news/lithium-us-groundwater#:~:text=Presently%20lithium%20is%20not%20regulated,evaluating%20lithium%20concentrations%20in%20groundwater.

          1. WayneS Avatar
            WayneS

            So how many 250 grain hollow-point .45 Long Colt slugs can you cast from 8 kg of Lithium?

            You can get darned near 500 of them from that amount of lead…

            😉

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Then I figure you could cast near 1000 of them from the amount of lead in a larger (group 65 or group 27) car battery! 🙂

            (one of my friends always seems to have a car battery or two in his junk pile–whenever I buy a battery and don’t have a core because it’s for a new project, I just ask him if I can get rid of a battery for him and go get the core refund. I figure I’m doing my part in ensuring that they’re correctly disposed of).

          3. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            But how does Li compare to cow farts, which seem to affect the minds of liberals?

            Perhaps EPA hasn’t regulated Li because there wasn’t a need until someone concentrated it. Like Cadmium and other metals.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Li does show up in water naturally, sometimes at high levels. I’m not aware of any problems it may cause.

    2. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      Also, I suggest that improper disposal of used EV batteries is MUCH less likely than improper disposal of lead acid batteries, for the simple fact that they are much more difficult to remove and are rarely, if ever, replaced so the vehicle goes to recycling with the original battery in it.

      Lead acid batteries, on the other hand, are typically replaced every 3-4 years and the $10 core charge isn’t enough to get some people to return them.

      (From what I’ve seen, the core charge on EV batteries tends to be much, much higher than that…so if one is replaced, the old one far more likely to be recycled)

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