Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Neither Snow, Nor Rain, Nor Sleet…. Ah, Forget It.

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

by James A. Bacon

If you’ve got something more important to mail than a greeting card, you might consider an alternative to the U.S. Postal Service. Come to think of it, if you live in Central Virginia and don’t want people thinking you’ve forgotten their birthday, graduation, or anniversary, you might not even entrust greeting cards to the U.S. mail.

Everyone knows the mail is frequently late. But it turns out that postal carriers sometimes dump the mail rather than deliver it. An internal USPS investigation, initiated by widespread complaints of late or nondelivered mail, has documented that three mail carriers, in the words of the Richmond Times-Dispatch, “ditched the mail rather than deliver it last year.” Reports the RT-D:

In one case, a mail carrier in Fredericksburg on April 22 asked to use a resident’s bathroom and then use his recycling trash can. Four days later, the resident found 400 pieces of bundled mail in the can. The mail was recovered and the carrier, who admitted to dumping his cargo, was later fired.

That same day, a mail carrier in Smithfield threw away 500 direct mailers, which were found in a Dumpster. The mail was part of a pilot program being tested by the agency. The carrier was fired.

Nobody laments the non-delivery of bulk mail. But there can be serious consequences if bills, invoices, or legal documents arrive days or weeks late. In the City of Richmond, late delivery of property-tax and meals-tax bills, compounded by the Post Office-like indifference of the city’s tax-collection bureaucracy, have created massive headaches for property owners and restaurateurs forced to contest penalties and fines.

From a cosmic perspective, Americans have on the one hand the rise of the information economy, the Web, the Internet of Things, and Artificial Intelligence from which humanity hopes to reap massive gains in productivity and quality. On the other, we have the U.S. Post Office and other unresponsive bureaucracies.

Which is the more powerful force in society today — change or inertia? Technology… or the sloth and ineptitude of government bureaucracies whose flaws are compounded by an entitled, ill-educated, social media-addled workforce?

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63 responses to “Neither Snow, Nor Rain, Nor Sleet…. Ah, Forget It.”

  1. Lee Faust Avatar
    Lee Faust

    Shouldn't they be prosecuted.

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    DeJoy of downward performance.

    Not sure how it works hours wise, but we have 3 different mail carriers in my neighborhood. Two walk, and I use that word liberally, so slowly that were I to try walking with them, I would topple over. The third is training for the Olympics. He’s around on Saturdays.

    One of the slow carriers sorts the mail using his armpit. Kinda gross to get mail with a half moon of wet on one edge.

  3. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    One of the things that USPS does that significantly supports and involves the private sector is this:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a6b4acb46fd73b52e62254f969944b433615be199637499d87916d3fff562ba4.png
    They developed the Zip Code system to start with and then they combine it with Census demographic info to provide a marketing tool that is heavily used and generates significant revenues for the USPS from both big and small businesses. Fed Ex and UPS are also reliant on the Zip Code system that USPS created and maintains.

    It's created problems for State and Local govt because the zip code boundaries do not align with jurisdictional boundaries and local govt's have to build their own modified zip code databases to get mail to those who live in their jurisdictions.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      The state has a database, maybe it's run by the dept of taxation, that if you give it an address it tells you what jurisdiction it's in.

      I last used it about 10 years ago, so I can't recall any more details than that.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        We’ve had several snafus over the years and I assumed each jurisdiction was responsible for their own but good that the state had one.. hate to see duplication… and it should have been obvious from the get go that USPS zip codes are not aligned with jurisdictional boundaries.. Some localities also have problems aligning their voting precinct ballots with State and Congressional districts. The average person has no clue about most of this… it’s just some govt agency “fault”.

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          I found it. Exactly as I recalled, it's for finding out what jurisdiction an address is in for sales tax purposes. Not that you can only use it for that reason..

          https://www.tax.virginia.gov/sales-tax-rate-and-locality-code-lookup

        2. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          Incidentally, the best GIS website I've ever seen for any jurisdiction in Virginia is the one for Prince William County. It'll tell you what state house/senate district and congressional district an address is in.

          Want to find out who owns a vacant parcel of land? A few clicks and it'll tell you that, too, along with it's assessment and sales history going back at least 20 years.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            GAWD, you had something GOOD to say about your home place! I think places have caught up
            with some good GIS… but they still seem to get tripped up when USPS alters it’s zip codes sometimes.
            I don’t know how localities “worked” before the USPS had zipcodes. 1963?

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            They had postal zones prior to 1963. I have an old power tool I know was made before 1963 because it says “Chicago 17” in the address for the manufacturer.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yep, they had “something” but the ZIP CODE system itself was revolutionary… and something we all take for
            granted now but both USPS and the private sector are totally reliant on it… yet another government-created good thing. ” Robert A. Moon
            In 1944, Moon, a postal inspector in Philadelphia, proposed a coding system to refer to general regions of the country. Moon believed the existing rail-based system would not be able to handle the increasing volume of mail. The USPS accepted Moon’s idea and expanded upon it by adding more digits to pinpoint specific locations. Moon is credited with the first three digits of the zip code, which refer to the general region.”

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Telephone area code and exchanges (703-361 for example) predate zip codes (1947) and can also be used to identify a geographic location just like zip codes.

            Assuming, of course, that one has access to exchange area maps. Virginia is one of the states that does not make them publicly available.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            can they do it down to the block level like zips can? That capability combined with demographic data is highly valued by marketing folk.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Zips couldn’t do down to the block level till zip+4 came out in 1983. However, a full phone number can obviously be as specific as an individual…and telemarketers love that.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            but can you see a “block” with demographic info?

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            To the degree that a phone number can be connected to an address, sure.

          9. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I’m only saying it’s good because of how bad all the other ones I’ve used are!

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I knew you would say that! GIS has revolutionized these things – across the board. Geeze, another govt worker: “Roger Tomlinson’s
            The First GIS

            Roger Tomlinson’s pioneering work to initiate, plan, and develop the Canada Geographic Information System resulted in the first computerized GIS in the world in 1963. The Canadian government had commissioned Tomlinson to create a manageable inventory of its natural resources.”

            And of course, the govt invented GPS… “Roger Lee Easton, Sr. (April 30, 1921 – May 8, 2014) was an American physicist and state representative[1] who was the principal inventor and designer of the Global Positioning System, along with Ivan A. Getting and Bradford Parkinson.[2]

            The Naval Research Laboratory’s managers for the Timation program and, later, the GPS program: Roger L. Easton (left) and Al Bartholomew.”

          11. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            GIS is also used by public utilities. Kinda useful to know where all the valves, transformers, junction boxes, meters and so forth are. It’s very possible that a utility had a gis-like system before the Canadian government did. I suspect that AT&T/Bell did.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yep. Used for a wide variety of things, even the Appalachian Trail! https://nps.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6298c848ba2a490588b7f6d25453e4e0

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The Utiliquest utility locators have GIS maps of all the utilities they locate for. I’ve seen the ones for Verizon (Verizon uses Utiliquest to do their locates in this area). For my new house, NOVEC required me to supply them with a lot grading plan in Autocad format with Virginia state coordinates, which I’m sure went into their GIS system. Can’t imagine why they’d need the coordinates, but I also can’t imagine why they couldn’t have added those themselves since I send them the dwg file. I ended up getting the coordinates for the corners of my property from PWC GIS Mapper, and adding them to the dwg file with some help from a friend of mine who knows Autocad. The other option was to pay a surveyor to survey my property and add the coordinates to the file. NOVEC doesn’t need that kind of accuracy.

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            New House? Where?

          15. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It's a few years old now, it's in PWC. The good part of PWC, where I don't have to hear my drunk neighbor screaming at their significant other. 'Course, Zillow claims my house is worth $900k, so that might have something to do with it.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh. congrats!

  4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Blaming the problems of the USPS on an “entitled, ill-educated, social media-addled workforce” because a few carriers pitched their mail is like saying that, because of Bernie Madoff, we should not trust financial advisers. As Larry has pointed out, there have long been reports of isolated carriers who dump mail.
    The problems with USPS start with one man—Postmaster Louis DeJoy. Soon after he assumed the position, he announced a plan to consolidate mail sorting sites. Called “Delivering for America” it would bring great efficiencies to the system. We in Richmond were the lucky ones to go first. It has been an unmitigated disaster. However, we are not the only ones. The same problems are occurring around the country.
    Even if implemented well, the plan, while perhaps cutting down on the number of employees needed, will result in longer delivery times in many cases. If a resident of Virginia Beach mails a birthday card to another Virginia Beach resident and that letter, instead of being sorted locally, is dumped in with all the other pieces put into the mail in Virginia Beach that day and sent to Sandston for sorting, it will take longer to get to its intended recipient.
    In addition to delays in mail delivery, I notice inconsistent delivery. One week, my mail will get delivered by early afternoon. Other days I will check my mailbox as late as 6 or 7 p.m. and it will be empty, only to find mail in it early the next morning. Carriers tell me that routes have gotten longer and sometimes they have to cover two routes in one day. That is one reason behind the high turnover in USPS employment. The reason for staff shortages and high turnover are elusive. If one Googles “USPS staff shortages”, similar stories from all the country pop up. The reasons seem to be the same for staff shortages in other industries, i.e. low unemployment, and toxic working conditions.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I actually think they need to go to a hub/spoke system. It's exactly how other modern delivery services work.

      I think in the case of local-local it may add time but in my experience, I often get 2-day service including local. Sorting is an enormous job. Each PO gets outgoing mail in one box and then has to sort it and doing it by hand is definitely labor-intensive but automated sorting equipment is also expensive unless done to scale so that why the distribution hubs are created. They've been around awhile, before DeJoy but they did not
      operate as true hubs. The local POs were supposed to filter out the local mail and send the rest to a distribution center.

      Some investigation must have been done to figure out the costs for local sorting verses delivery to hub sorting – even for local mail… which BTW has it's own issues in terms of what is "local" and not sent to a hub and what is not. how far away from a local PO is "local" and sorted locally? I feel that USPS knows more about that than I just as I would not presume to tell UPS/Fed Ex how to do it.

      1. John Harvie Avatar
        John Harvie

        Not sure. Tidewater has about1.5 million population, If I mailed a card to my daughter at the end of my block at The Beach, it went to Sandston, a suburb of Richmond and then back requiring up to a week.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Right – (Sandston has been the hub for awhile) I think that's the way it works now. But if you were going to go back – what distance would you use to determine what will be locally delivered AND which is more cost-effective to sort at a distribution center? How much additional labor is needed to separate local mail from non-local mail? Some choices have been made I agree and it could be that local delivery lost out on the decisions. I have to say, I mail local and it gets to recipients in two days usually. As long as you know, you can plan accordingly.

          If one REALLY wants overnight delivery – the private sector DOES provide that option!

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Someone years ago that if you want overnight delivery within your city that you address the letter so

          John Doe
          123 Main Street
          THIS CITY, Va.

          and don’t include the zip code.

          I don’t know who John Doe is but he knows where the letter goes.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      “because of Bernie Madoff, we should not trust financial advisers. ”

      I don’t. But I started not trusting them long before Madoff.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Have a friend in the West End whose mail frequently shows up at 10-11pm.

      The additional volume the USPS contract for last mile delivery with Amazon has added has been hard for the PO to adjust to. When that is added to the reorganization debacle it's a twofer on service going to hell.

      Richmond has added to the mess with several perps stealing mail, although they seem to be resolving that through arrests and prosecutions, also in part by eliminating mail boxes from in front of Post Offices. Go figure.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    As long as the post office has been in business, they've had a certain number of bad apples violating the law.

    I don't know what would be different or why but it's making the "news" these days (BTW the "lame stream" news, ah hem…) 😉

    We live near Fredericksburg and live about 3 miles from a PO and over the years, I can only think of one time things went sideways for some reason.

    We use USPS Informed Delivery and every day receive an email listing the pieces of mail on it's way.

    We started using this tool when the USPO started routing mail through Richmond (which has that sorting/imaging machine that only the main distribution centers have, not the local PO). Even if we send mail local or receive local, it goes through Richmond first then back. Sounds counterproductive but it's the way that "hubs" work in general, not just for mail, but for private sector parcels and yes, they're not perfect either! In fact, I hear far more problems with UPS/Fed Ex than I do USPO.

    I might be jinxing things by saying we don't have problems.. I hope not.

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      You're not jinxing things. You're just wrong. As usual.
      You "hear far more problems with UPS/Fed Ex than I do USPO…"
      You live in a different universe. I don't hear problems about UPS or Fed Ex, and when something doesn't happen as it should, those companies, for profit companies, care to address it.
      Your comment is not even slightly believable. Are you a former postal worker, sitting around the cracker barrel with Newman, chewing the fat about the good old days?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I do live in a different universe than you, for sure, not jus this!, … and stand by my comments. My experience with USPO has been good for decades… And there are horror stories for Fed Ex/UPS, not deserved, usually attributed to porch pirates and address issues. I note that Appalachian Trail hikes have
        their re-supplies mailed to POs at the gaps and judging from the comments, they do good at that also.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxw2Pl30GE

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            why law did he violate?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I actually support what LeJoy is trying to do in concept. I think he's trying to push USPS to be more a for-profit business than a taxpayer-subsidized govt service.

            He's responsible for moving USPS to a "hub and spoke" design and I've seen major changes at my local PO that I think are good changes.

            They're charging way more for PO Boxes… to my chagrin but I think they need to do.

            They make delivery boxes easily available… and easily mailed with tracking.

            Many other changes, that I see as in the right direction.

  6. Scott McPhail Avatar
    Scott McPhail

    I just know that I had a package two months ago from rural Michigan to Hanover county; it went
    > Detroit
    Detroit > Washington DC
    Washington > Richmond
    Richmond > Omaha Nebraska
    Omaha > Richmond
    Richmond > Hanover

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I've had this happen also both with USPS and UPS/Fed Ex and you'd never know it at all if they did not provide "tracking"! Yep, sometimes I think things go sideways…on the path but even then, most get delivered by the predicted time. I get stuff that beats the predicted time by days , sometimes… and a few past the predicted to be honest.

      They've looked several times at privatizing USPS and each time, pulled back.

      But now, and not infrequently, USPS works with the private carriers to carry out delivery, sometimes on a "last leg" basis. Imagine what it takes on a network/IT basis to go from UPS/FedEx to USPS on a delivery!

      USPS now delivers in my area on Sundays but the PO office itself closes on Sundays and half day Saturdays, holidays and at lunch!

      My perspective, I see positive changes at USPS, as well as some continuing issues… but on balance, I think they are better than they used to be and I DO support efforts to make them 100% self-funded not unlike FDIC and a few other govt agencies. I'm sure others may disagree.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I've had this happen also both with USPS and UPS/Fed Ex and you'd never know it at all if they did not provide "tracking"! Yep, sometimes I think things go sideways…on the path but even then, most get delivered by the predicted time. I get stuff that beats the predicted time by days , sometimes… and a few past the predicted to be honest.

      They've looked several times at privatizing USPS and each time, pulled back.

      But now, and not infrequently, USPS works with the private carriers to carry out delivery, sometimes on a "last leg" basis. Imagine what it takes on a network/IT basis to go from UPS/FedEx to USPS on a delivery!

      USPS now delivers in my area on Sundays but the PO office itself closes on Sundays and half day Saturdays, holidays and at lunch!

      My perspective, I see positive changes at USPS, as well as some continuing issues… but on balance, I think they are better than they used to be and I DO support efforts to make them 100% self-funded not unlike FDIC and a few other govt agencies. I'm sure others may disagree.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I think it is dangerous and a disservice to the American public to expect the USPS to be "100 percent self-funded". It could likely accomplish that status if it discontinued two practicies and policies: 1. Charge the same rate for a first class letter to be delivered anywhere in the United States. (Does anyone think that UPS/FedEx would charge the same to deliver a letter to Hurley, Va. as it would to Vienna, Va.? 2. Home delivery/pickup. The UPS/FedEx man/woman comes to your house only when there is a package to be delivered. The mail carrier comes by your house each day, even if there is no mail to be delivered, to determine if you have put a letter out to be picked up. So, if you want it to be fully self-funded, be prepared to give up some services you now take for granted.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      I have a similar package story. It took almost a month to go from Charlotte to Hanover. After close to two weeks it passed through Richmond without stopping on its way to Dulles. I guess I was lucky it sat there for a week rather than going on a plane or mule train to Omaha. In the end it took my local Postmistress to spring it from another week sitting in Sandston. Looks like we both got the USPS's Ground Disadvantage service instead of Ground Advantage.

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Ground Advantage appears to be a new name for what was known as "Parcel Post", which was known to be cheap and slow.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          Parcel Post was predictable if not quick. Almost a month to cover less than 300 miles, while detouring another 100 miles north by its successor service is abysmal.

          I learned to dread the "package in transit to the next destination" message in the tracking software. It commonly had that status for a week at a time.

          That mostly meant was it was sitting in a trailer at a bulk mail facility. At least that's what my local Postmistress told me when she started chasing it.

          Dunno how she sprung it from Sandston which has the reputation as a black hole for mail even within the USPS.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I've seen it a few times where things I've ordered sit for days with the status "Pre-Shipment

            Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item"

            I have one that's had that status since May 29. Who knows when or if it will ever show up here.

            I had one such item that had that status until the day it was delivered!

            They are always "ground advantage" shipments.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            seen that "awaiting" and "delivered" also.

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I had a Registered, Return Receipt Requested, 1st Class letter take 2 weeks to reach Kansas City, MO.

      I’ll bet everyone here knows where it was going.

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Infernal Revenue Service?

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Give that man a kewpie doll!

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Those incompetents sent me a letter saying they couldn't process my dad's tax return for 2020 because their records showed that he died prior to 2020. He died in 2021.

            The letter said to contact the Social Security Administration to get the problem corrected.

            I know full well that someone at the IRS made a typo when they were manually entering the data from the SSA, because even though it's 2024, their computers still don't talk.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            They screwed up and denied my “over 65” deduction. When I called the agent asked, “To verify your identity, can you state your date of birth?”

            I knew at that moment that it was going to be fun.

          3. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It's moments like that when I picture Mr Hand asking, "What, are you people on dope?"

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDf2j2CTDiE&ab_channel=FlipMyWigBaby

          4. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Expect they do talk. IRS certainly gets automated SS payment data along with other automated 1099 records. Here's a record layout from SSA's side. It includes date of death. Not likely a keying error on the IRS side. May have been coming up from state to SSA.

            Beneficiary & Earnings Data Exchange (BENDEX)
            https://www.ssa.gov/dataexc…

          5. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Expect they do talk. IRS certainly gets automated SS payment data along with other automated 1099 records. Here's a record layout from SSA's side. It includes date of death. Not likely a keying error on the IRS side. May have been coming up from state to SSA.

            Beneficiary & Earnings Data Exchange (BENDEX)
            https://www.ssa.gov/dataexc…

          6. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Expect they do talk. IRS certainly gets automated SS payment data along with other automated 1099 records. Here's a record layout from SSA's side. It includes date of death. Not likely a keying error on the IRS side. May have been coming up from state to SSA.

            Beneficiary & Earnings Data Exchange (BENDEX)
            https://www.ssa.gov/dataexc…

          7. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The SSA has the correct date of death for my dad, based on a letter I got from them regarding his social security benefits about a month after he passed away. They also took back his SS payment that was made shortly after he passed away (presumably the SSA had not yet gotten notification that he passed away–there was a delay in issuing the death certificate due to the doctor not knowing about Virginia’s new online-only death certificate procedure. I basically had to tell the doctor how to do it…)

      2. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        That may not be the end of the fun. A couple of years ago during Covid backups they cashed my check promptly then charged me 2 months interest and penalty for late filing when they finally got around to looking at the return.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          The exact opposite happened to me. I sent a check for a couple of thousand with my 2019 return. They cashed it in March 2020.

          In June 2021, I received a check for $4.85 with no letter of explanation except to say “interest”. I went online to see what I had screwed up on my 2020 return and it was still not processed.

          They didn’t process my 2019 return until June 2021 and that $4.85 was interest on the couple of thousand.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            That was back in days of yore before the Fed jacked up the interest rates. On the plus side our national debt was paying similar rates. You should come out better on current delays.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            No delays on 2022 or 2023. In fact those two paper returns were processed in 6 weeks.

            They’re back on their feet now.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Got my refund back a couple of weeks ago. They were quicker than the state. I broke down and got over withheld to avoid the annoyance of arguing over submission/processing dates. Getting old.

            It only took $80B more dollars and doubling the number of employees.

            You realize of course don't you that we're dinosaurs submitting returns on paper?

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            You should aim for “Safe Harbor” every year.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            1099s on all our income and taking standard deduction, they could figure it out for us without much trouble.

            OTOH, by paying a few more bucks Turbo Tax will transfer it to state with the click of a mouse and that's done too. That at least keeps me from having to enter the numbers twice. Just gotta remember that 529s are state deductible. That was a nice little windfall this year, and will be for several years carrying forward. Duh!

            Wonder who at the Va Dept of Taxation thought their abbreviation for Federal Adjusted Gross Income was cute? The South lives, passive aggressiveness forever.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            All in all, despite IRS's inscrutable letters and hiccups… I'd still not screw too much with them unless you're ready for a ride!

            I have seen some "burps" on deaths on returns between them and Social Security but the vast majority we've done went fine. One went sideways when he forgot an income document for his deceased wife… and tried to add it to their joint return as an amendment.

            Social Security is pretty good about processing deaths – both from a benefit point of view and from giving notice to the IRS as well as election folks.

            We're just never going to see 100% from the IRS, SS, VDOT, you name it and that's okay…anyone who has dealt with the private sector on issues (like cable or insurance) knows full well that expectations of perfection from any of them is unrealistic. It's life.

            If you got paper returns processed in 6 weeks, you done good.. They had a year backup at some point during COVID.

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