Misleading Certitude on Climate Change

by Bill O’Keefe

The Richmond Times-Dispatch meteorologist, Sean Sublett, recently wrote an article, “What to make of the National Climate Assessment.” He makes little of it in terms of analysis, and he reposts as if the assessment is primarily fact and not scientific speculation.

He provides almost nothing on the uncertainties that drive the National Assessment. The report treats uncertainties as scientific facts, and substantive information about the climate system is limited because uncertainties are not explicit. The long-range projections about temperature, sea-level rise, and extreme weather events are all the result of assumed emission scenarios and climate models that have proven to be too pessimistic. Since the climate is accepted as a chaotic system, it is virtually impossible to make accurate predictions absent actual knowledge of “initial conditions” which are unknown.

Over the past 30 years, climate activists and advocates have predicted catastrophic futures, that are always attributed to human activities using fossil energy. These futures  include much higher temperatures, more floods, more droughts, and more damaging hurricanes. However, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which represents the gold standard on climate science, has important caveats in its most recent report — the 6th scientific assessment — that ought to be given serious consideration. These include the fact that climate science still cannot distinguish natural variability from human causation for heat extremes, heavy precipitation, frequency of droughts, and tropical hurricanes.   

Furthermore, while the National Assessment claims that extreme weather events are causing over $1 billon in damages annually, it conveniently ignores the effects of population growth, rising coastal asset values, and inflation.

If you are looking for an objective source of climate information, I suggest that you consult The Honest Broker, published by Professor Roger Pielke.

There is no denying that our climate is changing, that humans are responsible for some portion of that change, and actions to mitigate and adapt are called for. What is not called for are actions that are premised on an impending environmental catastrophe. The federal government and states have been subsidizing and promoting alternative energy sources for decades but are still falling short of emission goals and wasting resources in the process. In the meantime, we are witnessing the offshore-wind industry collapsing while electric cars are facing an uncertain future because of lagging demand. 

Wealthier consumers may not object to paying higher electricity prices or higher costs for EVs but they do not represent most American consumers. For example, Tesla dominates the electric car market, but Tesla owners have average household incomes of $130,ooo, while the average household income is about $75,000. And, as The Wall Street Journal pointed out in a recent article, “Americans Fall Out of Love with EVs,” electric vehicles cost more to produce than they sell for. Losing money without government largess is not the solution to addressing climate change or any other public policy challenge.

Industry executives have been warning that the renewables industry could face an Enron-type collapse because of its subsidy dependence. Unmanageable costs, technical problems, and a limit to subsidies are causing offshore developers to conclude that their industry is broken. EVs that politicians have claimed as virtuous and revolutionary trend-setters represent the magical thinking of politicians who forgot to check with the majority of car buyers, who are just saying “no.”

Sooner or later, hopefully sooner, decision making policymakers will recognize the enormous difficulty of predicting a future that is decades ahead of us, as well as the difficulty of mandating new technologies. Instead, they should turn to solutions and approaches that recognize that long-term problems always have their share of surprises and unknowns. That is especially true of the climate change challenge and the technologies and policies that will prove cost-effective and sustainable. Simple actions — like coastal zoning, sea walls, continued improvements in energy efficiency, improved agricultural practices, extending the life of natural gas and nuclear power, and transferring energy technologies to developing countries — may not be exotic but they will put us on a path of genuine progress that is sustainable.  

There is a great deal of research underway on new technologies and approaches to climate change. Those should be not only strongly encouraged but more broadly supported with money now being wasted on solar, wind, heat pumps and EVs. Obstacles to their development and implementation should be removed. In addition, climate system research should focus on reducing uncertainties, validating assumptions like those about plant uptake, and improving data quality.  Small steps that are better focused and based on incremental learning will pay dividends, as will finding ways for other countries to shift from higher to lower carbon fuels.

Bill O’Keefe is a former executive vice president of the American Petroleum Institute and the founder of Solutions Consulting.


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103 responses to “Misleading Certitude on Climate Change”

  1. Randy Huffman Avatar
    Randy Huffman

    Good insights. I find it interesting how many of our friends Left of center find several traditionally Republican positions “extreme”, the abortion issue is the poster child for this. Yet as pointed out in this article, most Democratic views and mandates on climate change are very extreme, especially since there is very little that would be done in the US that will push the needle much, if at all, as we are talking about Global issues and a lot of complexities and questions. Yet with media and educational system support, they get away with it.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      The US and EU lead on environmental and pollution issues. The rest of the world follows
      and takes advantage of technologies developed by more developed nations.

      The “left” is not “extreme” on the issue, they just think there is a problem and we need to start responding to it.

      The irony here is that we do have cleaner air in Va because of California (emissions) and regulation on coal plants.

      Both lead and mercury are toxic especially to young people and both are reduced because of US leadership.

      The problem with comparing the US to China or India is per capita. On a per capita basis, we emit far more than either of them but they have far more people.

      If you’re gonna reduce, what is a fair way to measure better than per-capita?

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        China and India etc. are indeed on a hell bent for leather energy development course because they intend to reach per capita consumption levels equal to the US and EU. In India’s case, it will be mostly coal and in China’s case more of an all-sources approach, since they are already building so high a percentage of solar components. What we do in the entire US won’t even bend the curve on rising CO2 emissions. Damn it might someday be…all of five parts per million!!!! (Now 4 ppm).

        This is an intelligence test. O’Keefe passes.

      2. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        China and India etc. are indeed on a hell bent for leather energy development course because they intend to reach per capita consumption levels equal to the US and EU. In India’s case, it will be mostly coal and in China’s case more of an all-sources approach, since they are already building so high a percentage of solar components. What we do in the entire US won’t even bend the curve on rising CO2 emissions. Damn it might someday be…all of five parts per million!!!! (Now 4 ppm).

        This is an intelligence test. O’Keefe passes.

      3. The rest of the world does not follow…. it ignores such dribble…. look at all the countries which adopted ESG parameters……and China Joe has done nothing to stop his adopted benefactor’s fossil fuel expansion.

      4. Randy Huffman Avatar
        Randy Huffman

        Per capita is irrelevant when it comes to global warning issues. Population growth is probably far more important. For example, on extreme weather events. I read an article about Hurricane Hazel and a couple who survived it in 1954, here is a a synopsis on it.

        https://www.stoppingpoints.com/north-carolina/sights.cgi?marker=Hurricane+Hazel&cnty=Brunswick

        What would have happened if this hit today? Perhaps the better question is what WILL happen when the next one hits. Yet Global Warning will be blamed.

        The Left is out of control on this issue. You conveniently blame Republicans for budget deficit issues, yet ignore the massive amount of spending of money that we do not have, on issues such as this.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Randy, you’d expect people in developing countries to not be able to improve their
          quality of life to the level we have?

          I swear, you guys seem to love anecdotal stuff in the face of current realities.
          Insurance companies are leaving places like Florida and the ones that stay are doubling,
          tripling their premiums. Same thing in California with wildlfires.

          The skeptics , to me, seem to premise their views on the idea that scientific consensus of the
          vast majority of scientists on global warming is predicated on a massive worldwide conspiracy
          among them to lie about it. What sane and rational person believes there truly is a
          bona-fide world wide conspiracy among scientists to “control” us? Once you get into
          that territory… it’s Katy bar the door for me. Not for the skeptics….

          AND … WHO among the “left” and “right” wants FEMA to subsidize insurance for homeowners these days?

          just FYI – I don’t blame the GOP on budget deficit issues per se but on their denial and ignoring
          of things that drive the budget deficits. If you say you need to “cut” then fine, but actually
          specify cuts that are real and not symbolic. We cannot provide health insurance at the level
          we provide it without paying for it or we’ll have a deficit.

          1. Didn’t the so called ‘consensus’ believe the earth was flat the C-19 vaccine would stop the spread, as well as 6-foot separation and masks? Nuff said.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            nope. it was the flat earth folks that opposed the science as they do now! And folks looking for absolute unchanging truth from on high – simply do not understand that science is an evolving body of knowledge – as we do learn. we change in response to what we learn.. at least some do.

          3. Randy Huffman Avatar
            Randy Huffman

            All cuts are real, all cuts should be on the table. We cannot tax our way out of this problem, spending is out of control. There are no federal dollars, only federal debt. Politicians get away with this because the public ignores these facts.

            As for people in developing countries, as well as the lower income people here, of course they should improve their life. I don’t recall conservatives being the ones trying to eradicate affordable fossil fuels….

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            We have the deficits because we don’t want to “cut” defense, right? And if you want to “cut” health care – actually enough to really affect the deficit – then you need to specify what instead of arguing “cuts” and “you go first” to those who think taxes need to be raised to pay for it.

            In other words, if you think that cuts is the right path – then say it.

            We can actually get to a balance right now if we took away the tax subsidies for health care.
            I can name them if you want. I’d support them but I don’t see what “cuts” could be made
            to get us to balance without addressing the subsidies – which means it will cost people.

            on the developing countries -yes… they’re gonna use fossil fuels more than us because
            they don’t have the technologies yet that we do.

            There is no “war” on fossil fuels. It’s a realization that there are real consequences to using
            them and we should not use them unless we have no choice – which is the case right now.
            It’s not about them going away 100%, it’s about using them when we have to and using
            non-polluting and less polluting technologies when we can.

            It’s not an all or nothing… i.e. zero fossil fuels except to a small minority of extremists.

            Most folks want to reduce but realize it’s not only not going to happen overnight but it
            will be a long road… a long enough road that we may not be able to head off all
            impacts.

            this is silly and partisan IMO. Do you remember the “war on coal”? Do you realize
            the harm that mercury caused from coal burning ? same thing for leaded gas and
            lead in paints. The harm it caused and the rukus that conservatives caused in
            trying to get rid of it. It happens over and over. I’ve never seen a pollution reduction
            that conservatives supported. They’ve opposed every single one.

          5. Randy Huffman Avatar
            Randy Huffman

            Larry, I said it, all cut’s on the table.

            As to conservatives records on pollution issues, you need to do more reading. This is the problem with the Left, they spout out erroneous partisan stuff and it passes around as facts, but you are wrong! Stop passing around misinformation.

            Nixon 1970
            https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overview/40th-anniversary-clean-air-act

            Bush 1990.
            https://www.epa.gov/archive/epa/aboutepa/epa-administrator-reilly-hails-signing-new-clean-air-act.html

            President Bush initiatives, not sure what passed or didn’t, but he proposed alot.
            https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/achievement/chap18.html

            I’m done.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            I do read a lot and I KNOW that Nixon had no choice, Congress ran over him on the EPA.

            WRT Bush, you know he had Cheney right?

            Bush DID propose a lot, and a LOT of it was “voluntary”.

            He also did this:

            ” When George W. Bush was inaugurated on the Capitol steps in January 2001, the coal industry, which had contributed more than $250,000 to his presidential campaign, was battling a series of regulatory efforts that, taken together, threatened to make the dirtiest fossil fuel—and those who mined and burned it—economically unviable. Less than three years later, coal is once again king. Bush, an oil man whose biggest campaign contributor was natural gas giant Enron Corp., has done more to advance the interests of coal than for any other sector of the energy industry.”

            https://publicintegrity.org/environment/the-politics-of-energy-coal-the-bush-administrations-fuel-of-choice/

            So here’s my challenge to you. Name one law that conservatives opposed that was
            subsequently repealed as too harmful and not effective?

            Name the environmental laws that have passed that you deem “too radical”…

            Conservatives have a clear record on the environment and it’s not a good one IMO.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            on the budget. it’s not good enough to say “all cuts on the table” when none are specified. That’s what the GOP is doing right now… when you ask them for cuts.. they talk about entitlement programs that are not huge parts of the budget and would have no significant impact on the budget.

            To me it’s like the GOP arguing “repeal and replace” on Obamacare and never delivered much of
            anything and healthcare is THE budget issue and the GOP is still AWOL on it. The Dems support it
            as well as the taxes to pay for it – they’re not hiding from it.

      5. The problem with comparing the US to China or India is per capita. On a per capita basis, we emit far more than either of them…

        You first.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          say again? what’s a fair way of measuring if not per-capita?

          yes… I DO SUPPORT measures that WILL REDUCE per-capita emissions.

          I support energy conservation, LEDs, more efficient HVACS, smart thermotstates, wind and solar, nukes, reduced use of coal, EVs, etc, etc… any/all things that can lead to lower emissions.

          Always have for that matter …

          1. Prove that you have reduced your personal carbon emissions to those of the average person in India, and I will follow your example.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            I have no idea but I HAVE reduced it and will continue but I know I cannot get to the level where people live in 3rd world conditions and I don’t think I have to if we continue efforts to reduce. It’s just a false choice to think the way you are IMO.

          3. Please explain why it is a false choice. Shouldn’t everybody reduce their “carbon footprint”?

            And if you are going to laud 3rd world countries for their per-capita carbon footprints, why would you not want to emulate them?

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            Well I guess someone could look at it that way.. eh?

          5. James Kiser Avatar
            James Kiser

            I notice you support dishwashers that must run twice to get dishes clean and clothes washers that must run 3 times to clean one load of clothes. Yup real energy efficient there.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            huh? I do? opposite guy.. I support any/all advances in efficiency and less energy use…

            don’t understand why Conservatives are the opposite…

          7. Conservatives are not “the opposite”. And you saying we are over and over and over and over again will not make it so.

            I do not know anyone who opposes advances in energy efficiency. Although some of us prefer to adopt advances that actually work, and have minimal unintended consequences, instead of just jumping on every band wagon that passes by.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar

            naw. Conservatives have a long history of being opposed to regulations that will reduce
            pollution and improve efficiency. They were opposed to unleaded gas, stricter emissions which led to better gas mileage ,and even things like incandescent lights, and stuff… and they made the
            same arguments that we did not know “for sure” that it would improve. Once we get on the other side, they try to take credit… that they were “always in favor”… in a pigs eye!

        2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          ✔️… your move…

        3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          ✔️… your move…

      6. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        China and India etc. are indeed on a hell bent for leather energy development course because they intend to reach per capita consumption levels equal to the US and EU. In India’s case, it will be mostly coal and in China’s case more of an all-sources approach, since they are already building so high a percentage of solar components. What we do in the entire US won’t even bend the curve on rising CO2 emissions. Damn it might someday be…all of 500 parts per million!!!! (Now 400 ppm).

        This is an intelligence test. O’Keefe passes.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          It’s an interesting mixture of luddite, conspiracy theory, and anti 3rd world… but the reality
          is this:

          ” China is the breakaway global leader in new nuclear construction.

          China has 21 nuclear reactors under construction which will have a capacity for generating more than 21 gigawatts of electricity, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency. That is two and a half times more nuclear reactors under construction than any other country.

          India has the second largest nuclear buildout right now, with eight reactors under construction that will be able to generate more than six gigawatts of electricity. Third place Turkey has four nuclear reactors under construction with a presumed capacity of 4.5 gigawatts.”

          https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/30/how-china-became-king-of-new-nuclear-power-how-us-could-catch-up.html

          This is the way that conservatives are, apparently.

          They have a history of it and it has gotten much worse.

          1. It is not conservatives who, for the last 50+ years, have actively opposed nuclear power and aggressively hindered this country’s ability to build new nuclear power plants.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            yeah it was… NIMBY’s “don’t build those things near my upscale neighborhood – put it somewhere else! Liberals too but both. Many climate scientists support nuclear. And I DO!

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            liberals less supportive of nukes but that is changing:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c33c4c7e1747b810c31940b7a1e59f7822784fcec6dc1c97f17f99ccf5a73070.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0aaf5711c27bed2bfe86d8782207f2f579978c3d6d19c62c40d493eb1528d687.png

            Nukes do NOT cost less than fossil fuels so why would Conservatives support them if they are more costly?

          4. Nukes do NOT cost less than fossil fuels so why would Conservatives support them if they are more costly?

            Because, no matter what you claim, conservatives know that fossil fuels are ultimately not sustainable. Also, nuclear power is better for the environment.

            Only “progressives” claimed it was more damaging.

          5. Nukes do NOT cost less than fossil fuels so why would Conservatives support them if they are more costly?

            Because, no matter what you claim, conservatives know that fossil fuels are ultimately not sustainable. Also, nuclear power is better for the environment.

            Only “progressives” claimed it was more damaging.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            I’m just not seeing widespread support for Nukes from Conservatives these days and
            I’m not seeing ANY GOP candidates promising to support them.

            They can’t even exist without govt insurance subsidies, right?

            Most Conservatives say we should go with lowest cost …. and fossil fuels are lower cost.

            I happen to agree with you that fossil fuels is a bad bet longer term but again, no
            strong support from the GOP or Conservatives.

          7. No. Conservatives were not organizing and attending “Anti-Nuke” rallies, vandalizing nuclear plant construction sites & research facilities, and spreading lies about the safety of nuclear power.

            You are dead wrong on this one. You cannot blame the underutilization of nuclear power on opposition by conservatives. This one is a case of 100% “progressives” being 100% wrong on the issue.

          8. No. Conservatives were not organizing and attending “Anti-Nuke” rallies, vandalizing nuclear plant construction sites & research facilities, and spreading lies about the safety of nuclear power.

            You are dead wrong on this one. You cannot blame the underutilization of nuclear power on opposition by conservatives. This one is a case of 100% “progressives” being 100% wrong on the issue.

          9. No. Conservatives were not organizing and attending “Anti-Nuke” rallies, vandalizing nuclear plant construction sites & research facilities, and spreading lies about the safety of nuclear power.

            You are dead wrong on this one. You cannot blame the underutilization of nuclear power on opposition by conservatives. This one is a case of 100% “progressives” being 100% wrong on the issue.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar

            if that is what you wanna think, okay… but it’s wrong… no one wants a nuke in their backyard… not just a small band of wild-eyed radicals…

          11. “Progressives” did not want nuclear power plants anywhere.

            And it is you who are wrong on this issue.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar

            wrong… even folks like Bill Gates supports Nukes… !!!

          13. LarrytheG Avatar

            haven’t seen any conservatives say “build it here” either.

          14. I have. I stated on this very site that I would welcome a small modular reactor in my back yard – literally in my back yard.

          15. I have. I stated on this very site that I would welcome a small modular reactor in my back yard – literally in my back yard.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar

            try that for many others… you say Nuke and they go ape crap.. bi-partisan…

          17. LarrytheG Avatar

            here’s the thing. Nukes are way more expensive than fossil fuels… right… so why would you support something that is way more expensive to start with?

          18. why would you support something that is way more expensive to start with?

            “To start with” being the key phrase. I must not be as short-sighted as you – I look at the long game.

            And Nukes are cleaner and better for the environment, no matter what you and your “progressive” friends say.

          19. why would you support something that is way more expensive to start with?

            “To start with” being the key phrase. I must not be as short-sighted as you – I look at the long game.

            And Nukes are cleaner and better for the environment, no matter what you and your “progressive” friends say.

          20. LarrytheG Avatar

            long game? climate? or something else?

        2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          “India’s rate of emissions intensity – the total amount of greenhouse gas emissions emitted for every unit increase of gross domestic product (GDP) – fell by 33% from 2005 to 2019, officials privy to the preparations of the Third National Communication (TNC) report said.”

          https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-succeeds-reducing-emissions-rate-by-33-over-14-years-sources-2023-08-09/#:~:text=This%20official%20said%20a%20substantial,reduction%20in%20India's%20emissions%20intensity.

          1. That’s good.

    2. James Kiser Avatar
      James Kiser

      Dems haven’t informed the dozens of erupting volcanoes to stop polluting either.

  2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Whatever we say here the U.S. Left and some on the Right elect to consider climate change and fossil fuel elimination the No. 1 priority for USA. As always for me, part of this is rooted, not in climate change, but in the U.S. Left’s perceived view of the criminally unethical behavior of the US fossil fuel industry. Another reason people support rapid change from fossil fuels, is that we as Americans are inherently optimistic that any technology change can be for the better ( snake oil effect) as well as financial gain from investments in “hot” areas. Good for jobs/economy, many feel.

    The main issues for Virginia, cars and electric power. Virginia Democrats have already enacted into law an future ban on new cars including hybrids running on gasoline to mimic California. In this regard, Virginia Democrats need to realize California is essentially a renegade state that has usurped the authority Congress originally gave it to control Ca. smog, and once the smog issue was solved, California Dems decided to re-define the target as CO2 reduction. The U.S. Democrats have supported California’s anarchy in this regard, making it hard to get the California genie back in the bottle.

    But Virginia Dems should realize gaso vehicle ban is a matter of political grandstanding by Dems. We do not have a smog issue, rather we have Democrats wanting to signal their virtue and define the US fossil fuel industry as the enemy.

    PS- Prius hybrid (no plug) owner since 2006. Current model 2025 Prius rated 56 MPG EPA.

    1. James Kiser Avatar
      James Kiser

      Don’t forget CA is now banning fossil fuel railroad engines. They must be replaced with all electric engines.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        and good reasons:

        ” Diesel-powered trains transfer about 30-35 percent of the energy generated by combustion to the wheels, while supplying electricity directly from an overhead powerline transfers about 95 percent of the energy to the wheels.”

        https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/electrification-of-u.s.-railways-pie-in-the-sky-or-realistic-goal#:~:text=Though%20trains%20are%20more%20efficient,the%20energy%20to%20the%20wheels.

        1. James Kiser Avatar
          James Kiser

          And just how are you going to build those powerlines and when? and when are you building the power stations to supply the power. this is such a clusterfuck by dems who have lost their minds. BTW it a violation of the US Constitution for state to enter into any other compact with other states. Haven’t seen any votes by Congress authorizing CA to lead other states in butchering the country.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Why are ya’ll always the naysayers on pollution, energy efficiency, etc?

            Voting to align your own standards with another state is not a “compact” which is how
            some folks are wrongly characterizing it.

            And even if it was, it can be undone if that is the will of voters and they elect based on that.

            If California were a country, it would be the 8th biggest economy in the world. Yet you guys
            don’t seem to “get” it on this. Their energy issues are as big as some countries for sure.

            Hey, did you see this:

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bf72e72b5c82232d48329a2bd37ebefe469b5f41e9cfa0117e58b301be005316.png

            Nov 7 (Reuters) – U.S. energy regulators on Tuesday urged lawmakers to fill a regulatory blind spot to maintain reliable supply of natural gas during extreme cold weather that was highlighted by an inquiry into power outages during Winter Storm Elliott in December 2022.

            A report on the joint inquiry by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and the North American Electric Reliability Corp (NERC) said that Elliott was the fifth winter event in 11 years where outages threatened the electric grid.

            “We narrowly dodged a crisis last year. Had the weather not warmed up on Christmas Day, it is highly likely that natural gas service would have been disrupted to New York City,” said NERC President and CEO Jim Robb.

            Elliott delivered sub-freezing temperatures and extreme weather warnings to almost two-thirds of the United States, resulting in unforeseen energy generation supply losses.

            https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/regulators-call-natural-gas-supply-protections-after-2022-winter-power-outages-2023-11-08/

          3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Save that for the fossil fuel black-out coming this winter that the Right will attempt to blame on reliable renewables…. guarantee it is coming…

          4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “And even if it was, it can be undone if that is the will of voters and they elect based on that.”

            Ummm… Youngkin and company (including many here) inserted this issue directly into the campaign rhetoric this past cycle. Voters seems to be a-ok with it.

        2. And the overall efficiency of thousands of miles of overhead power lines is…?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            compared to ? oil/gas infrastructure?

          2. Not “compared to”, what is the efficiency?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            Is it the MOST efficient way of moving energy?

            Would we use another method if it were more efficient?

            Would we not use it at all if it did not meet some arbitrary level of efficiency?

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Psst, include the efficiency of generating the power in those overhead lines. (They’ll still beat diesel-electric but the margin is less).

            True story. Railway in Peru decided to replace their 100-year old 900HP steam locomotives with 1800HP diesel-electric locomotives. Everything went swimmingly until they hit 10,000 feet in altitude.

            Eventually, they built a siding where they swap back to the steam locomotives for the remaining 4,000 feet up the mountain.

            At 10,000 feet, that diesel-electric is down to 1000HP, but that steam engine is up to 1200HP.

            **HP ratings were for illustration only.

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            (The copper industry needs the business)

          6. Matt Adams Avatar

            I don’t think he has the required grey matter to understand transmission line theory.

        3. Paul Sweet Avatar

          The energy in the powerline is only 35% or so of the energy used to generate the electricity to go into the powerline.

          Electric engines have been around for a century or more. The Virginian railroad used them to deliver coal.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginian_Railway

          The Pennsylvania Railroad ran electric intercity trains from New York City to Washington DC from the 1930s until it rail passenger service was ended.

          The main problem with electric trains is the cost and upkeep on the catenary cable system that brings the power to the trains.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            right.

            ” EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”

            https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#:~:text=Energy%20efficient.,to%20power%20at%20the%20wheels.

            but also ask yourself what is the efficiency of gas/oil from the point where it is extracted and then
            distributed? what is that efficiency?

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Since you are clearly a skeptic , I’m curious why you got the Prius. What motivation?

      1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        I am in favor of resource conservation and pollution control. But also I wanted to hedge against high oil prices – I did not want to pay high gaso costs of 2 minivans, if gaso cost went up. I was opposed to coal burning when Dems were fighting tooth and nail in favor of coal. Dems went left of me at some point.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Okay, Thanks. So you’d no longer buy an EV or hybrid as a hedge against high gasoline prices?

          1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Sure I will buy a hybrid until Virginia Dems ban sales in 2035. That’s what Ca. is doing.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            EV ?

          3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            I am a pragmatist so whatever is cheapest and meets my needs…I am getting older so my needs for hauling kayaks people etc may go down

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            haul canoes? 😉 If… you could get a full EV for 20K that had a range of 500 miles?

            yea or nay?

    3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “Prius hybrid (no plug) owner since 2006. Current model 2025 Prius rated 56 MPG EPA.”

      We still need to focus on getting people to move from 25 mpg range to the 50 mpg range. That’s where the largest fuel savings can be had. As we move to higher mileages, the fuel saving are reduced dramatically for the same incremental changes. I bought my first Prius in 2004. It is still on the road and going strong, btw. My next purchase, however, will be an EV.

      1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        How many miles on the 2004? New HV battery yet? Our 2006 batt died in 2020 so we went with RAV4HV. As soon as I heard about hybrids, I was a fan about ~2002 or so. But I wanted a Camry and waited like 3+ years for Toyota to finally come out with Camry Hybrid in 2006. The first Camry Hybrid was lack-luster, so somehow I was able to tolerate the Prius purchase and was one of our favorite cars.

  3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Important by way of auto definitions, there are three types of “electric vehicles”:

    Hybrids (HEV) use gaso only no plug (eg; Prius)
    Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV) gaso+elec (eg; Pacifica)
    Full Electrics (BEV) use elec eg; Tesla

    California (and thus Virginia) plan to ban sales of HEV hybrids, allow limited sales PHEV plug-in hybrids, and favor sales of full BEV electrics. Of course regular cars (ICE) sales would be banned along with the HEV hybrids. 2035 I believe is the date.

  4. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Important by way of auto definitions, there are three types of “electric vehicles”:

    Hybrids (HEV) use gaso only no plug (eg; Prius)
    Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV) gaso+elec (eg; Pacifica)
    Full Electrics (BEV) use elec eg; Tesla

    California (and thus Virginia) plan to ban sales of HEV hybrids, allow limited sales PHEV plug-in hybrids, and favor sales of full BEV electrics. Of course regular cars (ICE) sales would be banned along with the HEV hybrids. 2035 I believe is the date.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      goal date… can and will shift… IMO

      yes, 3 types of them

      would you consider a full EV? or not? why?

  5. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    Larry excels at high jacking a discussion, misdirecting it, gaslighting, and spouting his left wing ideology while simultaneously showing contempt for all things conservative–which are what is truly liberal.
    The point of my commentary was to draw the connection between apocalyptic projections which lead to misguided policies, and wasted resources.
    I also made the point about actions that are consistent with our actual state of knowledge and technology. Actions based on almost all long range projections are likely to be wrong because of uncertainties and unknowns.

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