Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Meals Tax: Laura vs. Jim

—

by

Peter Galuszka
in , , , , ,

meal taxBy Peter Galuszk

a

It looks like Jim’s in trouble with Laura. No not that Laura, but Laura Lafayette, chief executive officer of the Richmond Association of Realtors.

In an op-ed piece in this mornings Richmond Times Dispatch, Ms. Lafayette attacked Jim’s suggestion that a resurgence in the Henrico County housing market makes a proposed 4 percent hike in a meals tax, due on the ballot in November, unneeded.

Jim, identified as a “local blogger,” believes that the higher sales prices of 11.8 percent from May2011  to May 2012 should generate $17.8 million in revenue.

Ms. Lafayette, whose group constantly crunches real estate numbers, says the updated number is really 7.7 percent and that it reflects only houses up for sale, not a general increase in property values. That will happen, but is some ways away. In other words, Jim jumped the gun.

Ms. Lafayette is the for the meals tax saying that it is needed to stem Henrico County’s cut-down in jobs and services. Much of that has to deal with cut-back school programs. She writes: “If our children are to compete successfully in a global economy, our schools must work harder and be more effective than ever before.”

Common sense tells you that simply chopping programs will not achieve those ends.

Now, Jim is right that Henrico County’s use of government money to put out advocacy for the meals tax is questionable. The problem with Jim, however, is that he never met a tax he didn’t hate.

If you want good services, you have to pay for them.

Share this article

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

Comments

25 responses to “Meals Tax: Laura vs. Jim”

  1. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    “Jim … never met a tax he didn’t hate.”

    And Peter never met a tax he didn’t love.

  2. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    By the way, I’m in trouble with the other Laura, too. (I’m always in trouble for something, but that’s another story.) She backs the meals tax, too!

  3. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    I’m glad you’re picking up the slack here and doubly good since it rebuts !

    Anyone who has spent any time here knows that I’m a passionate supporter of basic education – the kind that is tested worldwide by PISA and in this country by NAEP, in Va the SOLs and now an effort known as the Common Core.

    These are basic academics skills in reading, writing, math, science to INCLUDE the ability to use these disciplines together to think critically about how to understand real world issues and problem solving –

    … which is where the US falters compared to our overseas competitors in Europe and Asia…

    and yet in this country and in places like Henrico – the tax bill for education continue to go up and up and constitutes such a major portion of budgets for counties like Henrico – that they do drive the need to continue taxes – to find alternative taxes so that property taxes can be kept from increasing.

    The problem is that we teach much more “education” than Europe and Asia do at our public schools – and the the same time we teach “less”.

    In Europe and Asia – they focus almost entirely on core academics AND the ability to USE them in solving real world problems – critical thinking. In Europe and Asia – if you want “more” than core academics for your kids – it won’t be in the publically-funded schools and you’ll have to see other kinds of school for those “extra” educations.

    In this country – we provide a much wider array of education while at the same time de-emphasizing core academics especially with regard to their actual use (beyond passing rote tests) in critical thinking skills.

    we even have a large contingent of people who think that charter/choice schools can “fix” our problem but they often don’t say much about exactly
    WHAT should be taught in charter/choice schools – especially with regard to what the public schools teach – beyond the core academics.

    I’m getting back to meals taxes here…

    Most parents want the schools to be all things to all people and especially so to their child – if their child wants to play sports or become a photojournalist or learn to play a guitar – they expect the schools to provide these offerings and once you add up all the courses over and above the core academic – you have doubled or tripled the costs – and those costs do escalate over time inevitably as each teacher – no matter if they teach only core academics or art appreciation – costs in salary, health care and pension.

    virtually every county in Va has it’s overall budget driven by school costs – in most cases it’s 1/2 or more of the total budget.

    What Henrico did – was to (in my mind, correctly) doubt the sustainability of housing prices to continue to maintain an upward trend funding of education so they are attempting to move some of the funding base for schools to a consumption-based tax – to reduce the dependence on housing taxes for schools.

    Of course the other choice would be to start to make some tough choices for the schools and perhaps to start evolving them more towards the European/Asia models in terms of core academic focus and reduce mile-wide/inch-deep non-core academic offerings and let parents make those decisions and the free market provide those (important, but non-critical) course offerings on a more specific basis rather than a publically-funded open-to-all endeavor.

    So I think Jim Bacon’s approach which basically is to attack the tax as extra spending for PR folks.. (which is true but a TINY part of the bigger school funding issue)…. but to ignore the reasons why the school costs are driving the budget concerns – is to avoid dealing with the reality – that our schools are simply too expensive for us to afford right now – and we have to start making some choices – to get to the priorities and to let parents take more responsibility for the things beyond core academics – AND for the schools themselves to FOCUS MORE on critical thinking associated with core academics – as done in Europe/Asia and now the focus of the Common Core in this country.

  4. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    “Please bear with me, because what’s at stake is not a spreadsheet that only an accountant could love, but rather the quality of our children’s education.”.

    Gag.

    The US spends more per capita on education than every country except Luxembourg. Meanwhile, our moribund education system continues to fall behind. In the United States, only 7 percent of students reached the advanced level in eighth-grade math, while 48 percent of eighth graders in Singapore and 47 percent of eighth graders in South Korea reached the advanced level.

    It’s time to stop insisting that our schools will be better if just raise taxes. That’s been disproven for decades.

  5. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    Where to begin?

    Thank you DJ, pointing out that “The US spends more per capita on education than every country except Luxembourg. Meanwhile, our moribund education system continues to fall behind. ” What’s going on here? And again I ask where is the lottery money going? This was sold to us as a means of providing additional revenue for “education.”

    What liberal doesn’t love a new tax (especially the classical set-up of finding someone else to provide the money)? Ms. Lafayatte states, “If the meal tax passes, 40 percent of those paying the tax will be non-residents . . . .” I’m sorry but educating this county’s children is the responsibility of county residents. I have no school-age children now (but I do have grandchildren attending Henrico County schools) and if an increase is required in order to support the school system then so be it. That is why we have property taxes in the first place, and one part of citizenship is paying for the education of the county’s children. But I do expect our officials to be properly husbanding available resources and making tough choices (and fishing for new sources of tax revenue isn’t one of them!). Raising the property tax won’t be taken lightly either as property owners tend to vote (and county supervisors know that).

    Furthermore, I’m left feeling threatened by County officials with an increased property tax if I don’t toe the line and vote “yes” on this. Really? Don’t these folks work for us? Don’t we provide them a budget and expect them to work within that budget? Shouldn’t the tone be more along the line of “if this tax increase doesn’t pass, we’ll go back re-look the budget for additional cuts. And then we’ll come back to you again with a proposal to raise the property tax”?

    Are we saying that our county’s prosperity (economic activity and property values) won’t return to previous levels? And then not exceed previous levels at some point in the future? I’m betting “yes” on the future. As County coffers fill, the property tax can then be lowered.

    If the problem is really that there are insufficient property owners to support the school system (that is, more renters having children using the schools than homeowners) then maybe that needs to be looked at. Responsible citizenship extends past property ownership. I’m assuming renters pay a property tax indirectly since the apartment complex owner(s) pay a property tax but at what rate? Perhaps supporting the school system should not only rest on the shoulders of homeowners but the people actually using the school, too–a user tax if no proof of property tax can be provided.

    Switching gears, here is how I would be able to support an increase:

    1. It has to be limited in time (“sunset” it)–two years and then it comes up again for a vote, and then only again for two more years.

    2. If the tax is in effect, then property taxes cannot be raised (can’t have it both ways).

    3. Parents no longer have to pay fees. Anyone with a child in school has to dread “fee day.” Again, where is that lottery money going?

    4. And I want to know exactly, to the penny, where this additional money is being spent. And something like “general funds” doesn’t count. I want to know if it’s being spent on computers, pencils, salaries, retirement contributions, etc. It can be published in the RTD. Or that new magazine being published by the County and mailed out each month (how is that being paid for by-the-way?).

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      I don’t know what happened to lottery money in Va. However, I followed the debate over casino gambling in Maryland pretty closely. The Maryland anti-gambling forces contended that all of the money raises through casino taxes and used for education was off-set by reduced payments from the general fund for education. It was never clear what became of the freed-up general fund monies.

      In other words, education got the same funding after casinos as it did before casinos. However, the casino tax revenue allowed Maryland to spend the more general funds on something other than education.

  6. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    The problem is not “liberals”. The problem is the inability and refusal of both liberals and conservatives to really WANT to understand the difference between what Europe/Asia teach – and not – and what we teach – and pay for.

    Europe/Asia focus on the core academic fundamentals – and critical thinking/problem solving and that’s why they are better than us.

    We, on the other hand, want our kids to have a wide array of choices beyond core academic – and in fact, we view core academic rigor – as a threat to our kids – something that can hurt them.

    Here’s what folks in Henrico can do – if they are truly serious about the costs of education.

    Look at you school budget and see how much of it does not qualify for SOQ State funding – which is targeted to core academics.

    Jim Bacon and others here are always talking about the “free market”, “bad teachers” and expensive pension benefits.

    In Europe and Asia if you want your child to learn to play the clarinet or play soccer – you do it outside the public school.

    and the teachers in their public school systems teach core academics with rigor – and if they can’t do that – they don’t teach.

    The ones that do teach are well paid for teaching core academics, critical thinking, problem solving – which leads their kids to successfully compete for jobs in the global economy.

    Over here, we’re worried about the kids getting into Tech or VCU – not whether or not they have a good core academic education that will qualify them for the jobs that do require that level of competence.

    half of our kids don’t qualify for the armed services ..these days.. because most armed service occupations require the ability to read technical manuals and operate high technology equipment.

    The reason the taxes are high is because we inside on many, many more teachers than schools in Europe and Asia have – because they mostly concentrate only on core academic curricula.

    We cannot get there from where we are right now unless we create choice schools that offer only core academic rigor which in one respect – if it causes downsizing and prioritization in the full-up public schools may lead us to recognize just how much of the current public school system is NOT core academics.

    Our current public education system is a reflection of our own priorities and so far – our priorities are not what they are in Europe and Asia and rather than us face that reality – we want to assign blame to county administrators, teachers, meal taxes, etc..

  7. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: ” And I want to know exactly, to the penny, where this additional money is being spent. And something like “general funds” doesn’t count. I want to know if it’s being spent on computers, pencils, salaries, retirement contributions, etc. It can be published in the RTD. Or that new magazine being published by the County and mailed out each month (how is that being paid for by-the-way?).”

    and I totally agree with you – and good luck with that. You can start by trying to find up how much is required spending for SOQ then you can look at what is not required and local option spending.

    I’ve not had much luck looking into school budgets to see what positions are mandatory SOQ positions and which ones are not – and thus locally funded – and in theory most of the K-3 positions are mandatory and the higher up you go – the more non-SOQ optional positions are employed.

    Don’t be confused about the county and schools – schools are even more insular fiefdoms than the county – and far, far more expensive.

    To be fair – the county wants high-dollar schools that will attract high-dollar businesses with high-dollar home buyers who pay high-dollar taxes also.

    but you SHOULD know what the schools ARE spending money on with regard to what is mandatory core academics and what are purely optional – locally-funded curricula.

    when/if you get to the point where you don’t want to know – then you get the taxes, both kinds and rates, you deserve…

    and the reality is – that most folks don’t pay anywhere near in property taxes what it costs the county to educate even one child (more than 10K per kid per year) much less multiple children. The financing would never work even if you count all the years after the kid graduates that parents continue to pay taxes.

    the reality is that the funding would never work if it were not for single people and people without kids paying property taxes also.

  8. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    Larry, I had gone back and re-read your earlier comment on what we teach and how we teach it, and was going to tell you that I couldn’t agree with you more. (So that’s two things we agree on–McDonnell needs to go and our education system needs a dramatic overhaul. But I can’t agree with you on liberals and taxes, I think that’s one of the big items that separates conservatives from liberals.)

    I wanted to add to my comment above if anyone had seen the 60 Minutes piece last night on the Robin Hood project but decided against it. Basically, Paul Tudor Jones stated our public education system is broken. I couldn’t agree more, and I certainly agree with you that our priorities are out of whack. What if the Henrico public school system were to something so dramatic as to totally revamp what we teach (and perhaps how) along the European/Asian lines? You know, I can remember a day when articles were written about how good our schools were, that our children were taught concrete skills, could communicate properly, and think critically, and that’s what separated us (for the better) from the systems of other nations. Looks like that has been turned on its head.

    I have a granddaughter heading off to college this year majoring in education. I ask myself, why isn’t she majoring in English, or math, or some other subject, and then picking up some of the education methodology along the way? Shouldn’t we have teachers that know how to do or understand something first and then allow them to teach? The education system today reminds of the medieval guild systems that I studied about long ago–a monopoly, a means to restrict.

    I was going to say that I lived in South Korea for 3.5 years (total) on two different occasions, separated by 20 years and one thing was constant: Korean parents ride herd on their children. Camp out in front of “Kumon” at Short Pump one afternoon and take note of who attends. They aren’t spending their disposable dollars to learn the clarinet, etc., they are ensuring their children have the basics skills down cold and then some.

    And I do I think we depend on teachers to do what we as parents should do and then criticize them when our children don’t meet expectations.

    But the discussion is about taxes, not the system, and I’m tired of feeding the monster, something that we know isn’t working. I maintain the system has sufficient funds, they just aren’t spending them correctly. Choices have to be made: core subjects come first, other stuff needs to follow, prioritized, as funding permits.

    If you want to start a petition by which we ditch the current system and set-up a different model, I’ll sign up. And if we need meals tax to get that off the ground, I’ll be eating all of my meals out to support it.

  9. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    @viper

    ” But I can’t agree with you on liberals and taxes, I think that’s one of the big items that separates conservatives from liberals.)”

    not when it comes to schools…. believe me… we vote 60-70% GOP down our way but the schools and the taxes for them are seldom an issue. Conservatives like taxes also but for different things….like National Defense and Law and Order and local schools.

    “I wanted to add to my comment above if anyone had seen the 60 Minutes piece last night on the Robin Hood project but decided against it. Basically, Paul Tudor Jones stated our public education system is broken. I couldn’t agree more, and I certainly agree with you that our priorities are out of whack. ”

    I saw it and he’s teaching to the choir … we are more interested in NOT doing core academic rigor…. we see it as a threat to the kids and besides we want them to “like” all the other neat “education” they can get.

    “What if the Henrico public school system were to something so dramatic as to totally revamp what we teach (and perhaps how) along the European/Asian lines? You know, I can remember a day when articles were written about how good our schools were, that our children were taught concrete skills, could communicate properly, and think critically, and that’s what separated us (for the better) from the systems of other nations. Looks like that has been turned on its head.”

    the horrible truth is – the non-core-academic courses at Henrico (and other counties) actually COMPETES against the core academic course. You know this for sure when cutbacks are actually done – and some of them occur in the K-3 grades…

    “I have a granddaughter heading off to college this year majoring in education. I ask myself, why isn’t she majoring in English, or math, or some other subject, and then picking up some of the education methodology along the way? Shouldn’t we have teachers that know how to do or understand something first and then allow them to teach? The education system today reminds of the medieval guild systems that I studied about long ago–a monopoly, a means to restrict.”

    well no.. teachers needs to be thoroughly educated in CORE ACADEMIC disciplines because you cannot learn anything until you are taught the basics of how to learn and that’s K-6… with emphasis on K-3. Later – kids can go into different areas but right now our kids in 9-12 do not know how to think critically and problem solve with core academic skills – the higher the grade level – the worse we compare to Europe/Asia. We lose ground as the grades advance.

    “I was going to say that I lived in South Korea for 3.5 years (total) on two different occasions, separated by 20 years and one thing was constant: Korean parents ride herd on their children. Camp out in front of “Kumon” at Short Pump one afternoon and take note of who attends. They aren’t spending their disposable dollars to learn the clarinet, etc., they are ensuring their children have the basics skills down cold and then some.”

    it’s part culture and part society… we have the more dysfunctional family structure on all the OECD countries … we have kids who are kids of kids… who as parents – themselves lack core academic skills and are incapable of helping their own kids and worse, incapable of knowing that their kids lack these skills.

    “And I do I think we depend on teachers to do what we as parents should do and then criticize them when our children don’t meet expectations.”

    teachers do what the administration tells them to do – especially when it comes to keeping their job. Your grand-daughter will find this out if she becomes employed by a school system. If she does not maintain discipline in her class and/or cannot maintain good relations with parents – she will not survive.

    “But the discussion is about taxes, not the system, and I’m tired of feeding the monster, something that we know isn’t working. I maintain the system has sufficient funds, they just aren’t spending them correctly. Choices have to be made: core subjects come first, other stuff needs to follow, prioritized, as funding permits.”

    we agree. the systems has the funds to provide the curricula that parents want – and not necessarily what the world is now requiring. we spend more on education than virtually every other OECD country in the world yet on core academics – we barely are above many 3rd world countries and dead last for the OECD countries.

    this makes a huge difference when it comes to our kids getting global jobs and paying taxes instead of needing entitlements.

    we want to blame teachers and unions for this – but look at your own Henrico county and tell me the problem is unions or bad teachers or HORRORS ..liberals – it’s not.

    “If you want to start a petition by which we ditch the current system and set-up a different model, I’ll sign up. And if we need meals tax to get that off the ground, I’ll be eating all of my meals out to support it.”

    it’s going to take more than a petition I’m afraid. We have way too many people who are so consumed with their own kids that they don’t see the bigger problem. In fact, many blame testing as a problem – as if we get rid of the testing.. kids can learn better… no problems like that in Europe/Asia…. they demand accountability and testing is how they assure it.

    All OECD countries have their equivalent of the Common Core – nationwide curricula, standards and testing.. so that no matter where kid moves to – it’s the same learning environment

    Here? the Common Core is a nefarious liberal conspiracy… to “teach to the test”…and worse.. In Europe/Asia – they are the national commitment to insuring their kids can grow up to compete for global jobs. Here? not so much.

  10. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    re: ” “What if the Henrico public school system were to something so dramatic as to totally revamp what we teach (and perhaps how) along the European/Asian lines? You know, I can remember a day when articles were written about how good our schools were, that our children were taught concrete skills, could communicate properly, and think critically, and that’s what separated us (for the better) from the systems of other nations. Looks like that has been turned on its head.”

    there’s another irony here.

    Our schools have NOT gotten worse but they HAVE fallen behind.

    read this:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2011/02/myth_of_declining_us_schools.html

    we have – instead – not kept up – with our global competition. we’re still teaching the way we’ve always been – but the world has globalized.

    we have kids in southwestern Va who are not getting the education they’ll need if they are going to look for high-tech global jobs… in our urban areas. They will end up flipping burgers… in places where their fellow workers actually have college – but the wrong kind of college…

    and it’s not all bad news – Massachusetts… as in teacher-union Massachusetts does well in international comparisons… better than some OECD countries but at 14K per student.. the most expensive.

  11. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    @ larry g:

    You paint a bleak picture. Now I understand why homeschooling is growing more popular.

    In 2006 (only year I could easily Google and find the info) average cost per student in Richmond (city) (maybe a 60-70 percent grad. rate in 2011?) was $12.7K (and I’m sure this has increased since then). Henrico’s 2006 cost was $8K and something. Graduation rates (2011) in the 80% range (more or less). Of course, graduation rates aren’t a direct equivalent to how those students compete internationally.

    Re our schools falling behind or not keeping up, I think we are parsing words. The fact is, our schools are deficient. There is a reason for that, what is it? Can’t be all the fault of culture.

    Re K-6, do we really need to specialize in this? Can’t these skills (which are basic) not be picked up along the way to obtaining a degree in math, science, or English? If not, better tell those home-schooled children (who seem to be doing very well getting into colleges) that they missed something.

    I still maintain that the school system needs to forced to make tough choices. Vote “no” on the tax and let’s get that discussion started.

  12. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    It’s important to understand if we are doing what we always have done or if we are no longer doing what we used to – and the evidence is we are doing what we’ve always done but the demands of globalization are increased and the education that we’ve been providing all along is no longer sufficient.

    In terms of K-3 and K-6 – if you do not know how to read, write and do math then you cannot learn the higher level skills that require you to know the basic skills..

    You won’t “pick it up”. You’ll get to the point where you cannot do the material at all and drop out or barely graduate as a functional illiterate.

    about a quarter of kids never graduate… and well over a 1/3 of our kids cannot even qualify for the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.

    K-3 is fundamental. If you do not master the subjects in K-3 – you are in trouble from that point on. Even if you pass K-3, if you cannot utilize those basic core academics to think critically about real world problems and their solutions – you’ll be at a disadvantage in competing against kids who can – and that would include most of the OECD countries kids.

    In terms of making “tough choices” – what is the criteria to keep or not keep courses?

    I maintain that core academics has to be cut line – and core academics is what you’ll see in the other OECD countries that out-perform us.

    Home-schooling is no panacea if the children end up with weak core academics and cannot think critically… and how would you know if they succeeded in gaining that level of education or not unless they got tested to the same standards as public education ?

    but you say “force schools” to prioritize by cutting them… right now..
    I’m betting that if the parents of kids in Henrico think that there will but cuts if the meal tax fails.. most will vote for the meals tax.

    there are very, very few, if any, active parents who will agree to cut the schools up my way and I suspect Henrico is little different. people LIKE “good schools”…. It’s a bargain! you pay about $2500 in taxes and your kid gets 10K worth of education…. !!!

  13. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    “In terms of K-3 and K-6 – if you do not know how to read, write and do math then you cannot learn the higher level skills that require you to know the basic skills.” Yet that’s what we do, we pass along kids who can’t meet these standards. And if we go along with the meals tax then we are condoning it. And after a few more years some other tax will be invented in order to support our failed education system. Surely there are people in this county who can “fight” the existing system. In fact, Henrico now has an opening (yet another scandal). Too bad you aren’t a resident of Henrico . . . .

    “Home-schooling is no panacea if the children end up with weak core academics and cannot think critically… and how would you know if they succeeded in gaining that level of education or not unless they got tested to the same standards as public education ?” It’s not a panacea or everyone would be doing it. How would I know that they met the same (low) standards of public schools? I don’t think it matters. I have no figures but I read that many of these kids are doing ok–they sit for the SAT/ACT and score well and they gain admission to decent colleges. I have no idea how they might fare at that point but I feel confident they graduate with degrees that lands them a decent job (one that allows them to pay the meals tax, if it passes). And I bet any of the parents would happily have their kids sit for any grade appropriate test that the county could throw at them. You know who I would be betting on. I don’t care if the public school system tests
    or not. If you have pretty much standard end-of-course exams that test the appropriate level of knowledge required to be passed then that should be good enough. I’d be happy enough to let teachers teach as long as they are willing to not pass along kids who are not ready to be passed along. I’m sure that opens another line of discussion!

    “and well over a 1/3 of our kids cannot even qualify for the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.” And if they can, they can’t pass the physical fitness requirements. Even with passing everything it’s tough to get in!

    “It’s a bargain! you pay about $2500 in taxes and your kid gets 10K worth of education…. !!!” That’s now the American way, getting something for nothing or next to nothing. Not a formula for long-term success.

    Can’t wait for election day to get here!

  14. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    “In terms of K-3 and K-6 – if you do not know how to read, write and do math then you cannot learn the higher level skills that require you to know the basic skills.” Yet that’s what we do, we pass along kids who can’t meet these standards. And if we go along with the meals tax then we are condoning it. And after a few more years some other tax will be invented in order to support our failed education system. Surely there are people in this county who can “fight” the existing system. In fact, Henrico now has an opening (yet another scandal). Too bad you aren’t a resident of Henrico . . . .

    it doesn’t matter how much you fund or de-fund the schools if their priorities remain such that they do not prioritize core academics with whatever funding they do have.

    Our education has not “failed” – it’s about the same as it has been for 50 years and has not kept up with changes in the world. we have fallen behind relative to other countries and that goes for home schooling also…

    “Home-schooling is no panacea if the children end up with weak core academics and cannot think critically… and how would you know if they succeeded in gaining that level of education or not unless they got tested to the same standards as public education ?” It’s not a panacea or everyone would be doing it. How would I know that they met the same (low) standards of public schools? I don’t think it matters. I have no figures but I read that many of these kids are doing ok–they sit for the SAT/ACT and score well and they gain admission to decent colleges.

    do you know if they end up with educations comparable to OECD countries? Do you know how their SAT scores compare to public school SAT scores? do you just assume they do as well or better without any evidence ? A parent who themselves do not have a good core academic education is not going to do better for their kids. K-3 teaching now days is a professional endeavor. You have to know precisely what each kid’s deficits are and how to remedy them and virtually all kids have areas where they need work and only a professional is equipped to drill down and figure that out – and get the kid the help they need.

    I have no idea how they might fare at that point but I feel confident they graduate with degrees that lands them a decent job (one that allows them to pay the meals tax, if it passes). And I bet any of the parents would happily have their kids sit for any grade appropriate test that the county could throw at them. You know who I would be betting on. I don’t care if the public school system tests
    or not. If you have pretty much standard end-of-course exams that test the appropriate level of knowledge required to be passed then that should be good enough. I’d be happy enough to let teachers teach as long as they are willing to not pass along kids who are not ready to be passed along. I’m sure that opens another line of discussion!

    you need to have assessment. and it needs to assess at a granular level to determine what of over 100 different sub areas of reading that a child is good at and what they need more work on.

    “and well over a 1/3 of our kids cannot even qualify for the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.” And if they can, they can’t pass the physical fitness requirements. Even with passing everything it’s tough to get in!

    you can get them to lose weight – but if they do not have solid core academic skills – they cannot read and understand technical manuals that they must do if they are going to operate and maintain modern technology equipment.

    “It’s a bargain! you pay about $2500 in taxes and your kid gets 10K worth of education…. !!!” That’s now the American way, getting something for nothing or next to nothing. Not a formula for long-term success.

    it’s the problem. You want certain “extra electives” for your kids. Someone else wants the same but for different subjects. Someone else wants soccer and tennis … another wants more musical instruments… etc… and that’s the problem you get into when you go beyond the core academic requirements. Every new “additional” subject requires a teacher with full benefits, health care, and a pension… and the pool of employees and retired – grows every year…

    Can’t wait for election day to get here!

    elections decide what people want and don’t want – to a certain extent… but what you’re really voting on – is the “extras” beyond what the State requires for the SOQs – Standards of Quality and SOLs. That’s where local taxes go for schools… the “extras” that you probably wanted for your granddaughter and others today want for their daughters.

    My impression is that if taxes are tied to school needs – that a significant number of people who are parents – will support them so if that ends up being how the issue is perceived in Henrico, it should be an interesting vote.

  15. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    here’s an example of what is going on in pre k-3 for PALS in Virginia:

    https://pals.virginia.edu/rd-background.html

    Early literacy screening is the key to providing effective literacy instruction and preventing future reading problems. The Phonological Awareness Literacy Screening (PALS) provides a comprehensive assessment of young children’s knowledge of the important literacy fundamentals that are predictive of future reading success. PALS is the state-provided screening tool for Virginia’s Early Intervention Reading Initiative (EIRI) and is used by 99% of school divisions in the state on a voluntary basis.

    PALS consists of three instruments, PALS-PreK (for preschool students), PALS-K (for kindergartners), and PALS 1-3 (for students in Grades 1-3). PALS assessments are designed to identify students in need of additional reading instruction beyond that provided to typically developing readers. PALS also informs teachers’ instruction by providing them with explicit information about their students’ knowledge of literacy fundamentals. Mid-year assessment and PALS Quick Checks allow for ongoing student progress monitoring throughout the year.

  16. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    “do you know if they end up with educations comparable to OECD countries? Do you know how their SAT scores compare to public school SAT scores? do you just assume they do as well or better without any evidence ? A parent who themselves do not have a good core academic education is not going to do better for their kids. K-3 teaching now days is a professional endeavor. You have to know precisely what each kid’s deficits are and how to remedy them and virtually all kids have areas where they need work and only a professional is equipped to drill down and figure that out – and get the kid the help they need.”

    I’m missing your point. Why do I need evidence when SAT scores of these kids meet or beat the averages? SAT scores are no guarantee of anything, really. These kids get into good schools and graduate. Why do I necessarily need someone from the school system to assess the needs of my children? The proof is in the pudding. These kids are well-adjusted and do well. As I said, I’m quite confident that any of these parents would have no problem sitting their kids for any of the tests given them in order to prove they are on track to meet the already low standards set of public schools. And the parents are smart enough to seek additional help as required. These parents are the type of parents we wish all kids had–they care, they are aware, and they are active in the raising of their children.

    You appear to me as a strong proponent of having professional educators doing many of the things parents should do (and in fact, do). I understand that some families may need the help of local/state/government in order to make up for what may not be happening with their parents (or parent). And I’m happy that we can provide that. But the state isn’t charged with raising our children (at least not yet).

    I like the choices: you can home-school, you attend private school, or you can attend public school. You pick. Meanwhile, everyone contributes to the public school system whether you use it or not. There is no panacea, to use your word, what system is best.

    “it’s the problem. You want certain “extra electives” for your kids. Someone else wants the same but for different subjects. Someone else wants soccer and tennis … another wants more musical instruments… etc… and that’s the problem you get into when you go beyond the core academic requirements. Every new “additional” subject requires a teacher with full benefits, health care, and a pension… and the pool of employees and retired – grows every year… ”

    I understand where you are coming from on how the system grows based on what’s made available (music, tennis, etc.). But you offer no solution (that I can determine). Once the school board is told no more money, then a real debate will ensue and we’ll know what folks are really thinking/wanting. We understand the system is failing but everyone seems at a loss as to what needs to be done. And yes, I’m skeptical of what I’m being told by the school board and the county officials on this matter. As is my right to be. These folks work for me, not the other way around (at least technically). I mean, really, as we read about the current school board situation, that latest uproar over the laptop contract (you can buy you kids the latest phones, then you can buy them the laptop, too), the yahoo in NoVa apparently taking kickbacks and now running for the VA House of Delegate, and our own Governor, to include his chef, why would I believe the school board and the county exec that they’ve done everything possible? They haven’t. They think they have, according to their standards, but let’s say we brought in an independent auditor and/or efficiency experts (just saying), I bet they could find other savings. I’d love to hear the school board come back and tell us that we can only cover the basics, plus, this or that. Anything else would require either property taxes being raised or you (the parents) taking on the additional costs. But at least there would be debate and not a continuation of business as usual.

  17. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    “do you know ”

    I’m missing your point. Why do I need evidence when SAT scores of these kids meet or beat the averages? SAT scores are no guarantee of anything, really. These kids get into good schools and graduate.

    how many do and how many don’t? you’re assuming they all do ? why do you assume that?

    “Why do I necessarily need someone from the school system to assess the needs of my children? The proof is in the pudding. These kids are well-adjusted and do well. As I said, I’m quite confident that any of these parents would have no problem sitting their kids for any of the tests given them in order to prove they are on track to meet the already low standards set of public schools. And the parents are smart enough to seek additional help as required. These parents are the type of parents we wish all kids had–they care, they are aware, and they are active in the raising of their children.

    you’ll end up with kids who cannot successfully compete for global jobs. that’s the problem we have right now… with public school educations.. they are inferior to what OECD performance is – and what do we know about home schooling performance ? you’re assuming something.. but the truth is that OECD teachers are exceptionally trained and most parents here are not and our public school teachers are in between.

    “You appear to me as a strong proponent of having professional educators doing many of the things parents should do (and in fact, do). I understand that some families may need the help of local/state/government in order to make up for what may not be happening with their parents (or parent). And I’m happy that we can provide that. But the state isn’t charged with raising our children (at least not yet).”

    I’m a strong proponent of doing the things that are necessary for our kids to receive globally competitive educations – that they are not receiving right now – and you cannot get there by having untrained people “teaching”.

    why is this important? Because every kid that does not get “enough” education, your kid (assuming he does get a good education) is going to pay for the other kids entitlements and incarceration.

    “I like the choices: you can home-school, you attend private school, or you can attend public school. You pick. Meanwhile, everyone contributes to the public school system whether you use it or not. There is no panacea, to use your word, what system is best.”

    if the kids do not receive globally competitive educations then someone is going to pay for their entitlements…

    ““it’s the problem.
    I understand where you are coming from on how the system grows based on what’s made available (music, tennis, etc.). But you offer no solution (that I can determine).

    My “solution” is to do what OECD countries do – restrict the curriculum to core academic and let parents decide what “extras” they want to personally pay for instead of taxpayers.

    “Once the school board is told no more money, then a real debate will ensue and we’ll know what folks are really thinking/wanting. We understand the system is failing but everyone seems at a loss as to what needs to be done. And yes, I’m skeptical of what I’m being told by the school board and the county officials on this matter. As is my right to be. These folks work for me, not the other way around (at least technically). I mean, really, as we read about the current school board situation, that latest uproar over the laptop contract (you can buy you kids the latest phones, then you can buy them the laptop, too), the yahoo in NoVa apparently taking kickbacks and now running for the VA House of Delegate, and our own Governor, to include his chef, why would I believe the school board and the county exec that they’ve done everything possible? They haven’t. They think they have, according to their standards, but let’s say we brought in an independent auditor and/or efficiency experts (just saying), I bet they could find other savings. I’d love to hear the school board come back and tell us that we can only cover the basics, plus, this or that. Anything else would require either property taxes being raised or you (the parents) taking on the additional costs. But at least there would be debate and not a continuation of business as usual.’

    The schools will cut the things that the parents will complain the least about being cut – so “popular” courses will not be cut first.

    Look at this:

    Virginia reading scores drop by double digits on new SOL test
    http://goo.gl/bgtQX3

    tell me how you fix this problem … tell me how we know that home-schooled/private schools are not having the same issues…..

    why should you care? because your kids are going to grow up either needing entitlements themselves or paying for others… that should concern you as much as taxes…

  18. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    how many do and how many don’t? you’re assuming they all do ? why do you assume that? Reading what articles I come across and personal knowledge and experience. Yes, I’m making an assumption, much as you are. The families that I’ve met that home school have children who do well.

    “you’ll end up with kids who cannot successfully compete for global jobs. that’s the problem we have right now… with public school educations.. they are inferior to what OECD performance is” You just said it, public school educations. But a blanket statement. Not all schools are the same. But you also slam home schoolers and private schools, are lump them into the same group. Last I’ve read about we still have some pretty good universities to which a lot of foreign students attend. At the end, I think our kids can compete globally (but I must state it depends on the type of degree/course of study: engineering, science, math, accounting, etc., is what I’m talking about).

    “you’re assuming something.. but the truth is that OECD teachers are exceptionally trained and most parents here are not and our public school teachers are in between.” That’s right, I’m assuming that most college educated parents or even high school graduates can teach their children how to read, write, and do basic math. I think you are making something harder than it needs to be. I grant you as the kids move into middle school and high-school that some parents are ready or capable to do that, and they move their children into the public schools (my case: a mixture of private, public, DoD, foreign, and homeschooling. He’s in college now after a stint in the military and doing fine). I have a friend that’s gone the full monty with homeschooling with his five children. The eldest was a top competitor for the state’s spelling bee program, and now attends UVA.

    “OECD teacher are exceptionally trained” I’m skeptical of such a blanket statement.

    “tell me how you fix this problem … tell me how we know that home-schooled/private schools are not having the same issues…..” Home schoolers focus on the core subjects. They pay out of pocket for a wide array of course and programs designed to home-school you child(ren). They pay out of pocket for the extras: music lessons, dance lessons, tennis lessons. They pool resources for group athletics, road trips, social outings, theater, and such. They have newsletters and parents meetings to exchange ideas and discuss the subject at hand. They limit the TV. They make their kids read the classics. And some people want to castigate, alleging some sort of child abuse? What b.s. Home schoolers are rebelling. Effectively. And it drives some folks crazy.

    “My “solution” is to do what OECD countries do – restrict the curriculum to core academic and let parents decide what “extras” they want to personally pay for instead of taxpayers.”
    So we agree. How do we get there? How about we open everything up buy giving every family x-amount of credits that can be used to the education they want via the public school system? These credits are, of course, our tax dollars. You get enough to easily cover core subjects but not enough for every elective, just one. When you run out of credits then if you really want it, you pay for it. And you also get to vote with your feet. You can send your child to any school you want (but you are responsible for getting them there if outside of normal bus routes).

    And then let’s muddy the waters, assuming parents bought it to this. What if one part of the county could easily afford these extras and the remaining part could not? What then?

    How about this? How about we stop telling our kids that if they don’t go to college then they are failures? How about allowing kids the chance to pursue a trade? I love to watch This Old House. Those guys are fantastic. And they make a lot of money (with and without the TV contract).

    “why should you care? because your kids are going to grow up either needing entitlements themselves or paying for others… that should concern you as much as taxes…” It does but I also it’s not a perfect world nor will it ever be. I do want more of the kids on the side of being able to help those in need. So maybe that’s how you start the debate: draw a line down a piece of paper, two columns, with your two headers “receive entitlements” or “pay for entitlements”
    and see what parents choose. I guess we have a problem if most choose the “receive” option!

    You are one prolific son-of-a-gun. Again, I give you the last word. But I will say that public schools seem to be doing stuff that parents should be doing. And as long as this persists and grows, then I’m unsure that much progress can be made. People with the means and/or will to do so will opt out and find some other option for educating their children.

  19. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    how many do and how many don’t? you’re assuming they all do ? why do you assume that? Reading what articles I come across and personal knowledge and experience. Yes, I’m making an assumption, much as you are. The families that I’ve met that home school have children who do well.

    no, public schools do know that data.

    “you’ll end up with kids who cannot successfully compete for global jobs. that’s the problem we have right now… with public school educations.. they are inferior to what OECD performance is” You just said it, public school educations. But a blanket statement. Not all schools are the same. But you also slam home schoolers and private schools, are lump them into the same group.

    no. I support assessments for BOTH so that we do KNOW and standards for both that are competitive with OECD schools.

    “Last I’ve read about we still have some pretty good universities to which a lot of foreign students attend. At the end, I think our kids can compete globally (but I must state it depends on the type of degree/course of study: engineering, science, math, accounting, etc., is what I’m talking about).”

    the facts are that we do not compete globally as well as OECD. and yes, foreign students come to Universities and take American jobs that Americans companies cannot find qualified American kids to fill the positions.

    “you’re assuming something.. but the truth is that OECD teachers are exceptionally trained and most parents here are not and our public school teachers are in between.” That’s right, I’m assuming that most college educated parents or even high school graduates can teach their children how to read, write, and do basic math.

    if they themselves never learned the academic rigor now taught in OECD schools, how would they know?

    we have fallen behind guy. The parents in this country never learned to do the things that are now taught in OECD schools but not US schools.

    “I think you are making something harder than it needs to be. I grant you as the kids move into middle school and high-school that some parents are ready or capable to do that, and they move their children into the public schools (my case: a mixture of private, public, DoD, foreign, and homeschooling. He’s in college now after a stint in the military and doing fine). I have a friend that’s gone the full monty with homeschooling with his five children. The eldest was a top competitor for the state’s spelling bee program, and now attends UVA.”

    I’m not making it harder guy. I’m relating to you- FACTS about the US ranking 25th in a globalized world on academic rigor and performance.

    “OECD teacher are exceptionally trained” I’m skeptical of such a blanket statement.

    do you believe the international performance rankings ?

    “tell me how you fix this problem … tell me how we know that home-schooled/private schools are not having the same issues…..” Home schoolers focus on the core subjects. They pay out of pocket for a wide array of course and programs designed to home-school you child(ren). They pay out of pocket for the extras: music lessons, dance lessons, tennis lessons. They pool resources for group athletics, road trips, social outings, theater, and such. They have newsletters and parents meetings to exchange ideas and discuss the subject at hand. They limit the TV. They make their kids read the classics. And some people want to castigate, alleging some sort of child abuse? What b.s. Home schoolers are rebelling. Effectively. And it drives some folks crazy.

    how do you know they are EFFECTIVE at performing at the same level of OECD schools or for that matter our own SOL schools ?

    “My “solution” is to do what OECD countries do – restrict the curriculum to core academic and let parents decide what “extras” they want to personally pay for instead of taxpayers.”
    So we agree. How do we get there?

    well no… because you do not agree that we have problem with core academics to start with… right? If you really think that then why fix it?

    “How about we open everything up buy giving every family x-amount of credits that can be used to the education they want via the public school system? These credits are, of course, our tax dollars. You get enough to easily cover core subjects but not enough for every elective, just one. When you run out of credits then if you really want it, you pay for it. And you also get to vote with your feet. You can send your child to any school you want (but you are responsible for getting them there if outside of normal bus routes).”

    I think the fundamental purpose of schools is core academics that include critical thinking and utilizing core academics to deal with problem solving. I believe it is fundamental to our ability to compete with other industrialized countries and fundamental to our kids growing up to have jobs, pay taxes, not need entitlements and not have to pay for an excessive amount for others.

    our schools now teach mile wide and inch deep courses in addition to an abbreviated core academic discipline. The truth is that core academics is treated as if it was just another course selection and so it actually has to compete for funds against the electives…

    so two problems:

    1. – the enormous amount of money schools do spend NOT on core academics
    2. – the failure of our schools to recognize that the world has changed and core academics and critical thinking are no longer optional but mandatory and you have to assess kids to see what they know and what they don’t know with regard to core academics (aka the UVA PALS approach) and then re-school them in the areas they still need to learn. You need to do this with home schooling and choice schools also.

    And then let’s muddy the waters, assuming parents bought it to this. What if one part of the county could easily afford these extras and the remaining part could not? What then?

    we don’t do schools on a per school basis. we do them on a school system basis which has been ruled Unconstitutional.. each kid has to have access to EQUAL resources.

    “How about this? How about we stop telling our kids that if they don’t go to college then they are failures? How about allowing kids the chance to pursue a trade? I love to watch This Old House. Those guys are fantastic. And they make a lot of money (with and without the TV contract).”

    In Europe – there are two tracks – college and trade and kids choose one but the point is that BOTH TRACKS require the same basic core academic rigor as a condition for following either track.

    Just like with our military – the trades now days utilize great dollops of technology (which you KNOW if you watch this Old House, right?).

    “why should you care? because your kids are going to grow up either needing entitlements themselves or paying for others… that should concern you as much as taxes…” It does but I also it’s not a perfect world nor will it ever be. I do want more of the kids on the side of being able to help those in need. So maybe that’s how you start the debate: draw a line down a piece of paper, two columns, with your two headers “receive entitlements” or “pay for entitlements”
    and see what parents choose. I guess we have a problem if most choose the “receive” option!

    in an elected governance we do choose and I totally support it – IF that’s what we really want.

    you will pay taxes for entitlements … would you rather pay taxes for entitlements or have the recipient get enough education so they don’t need entitlements?

    You are one prolific son-of-a-gun. Again, I give you the last word. But I will say that public schools seem to be doing stuff that parents should be doing. And as long as this persists and grows, then I’m unsure that much progress can be made. People with the means and/or will to do so will opt out and find some other option for educating their children.

    I just think we don’t really think hard enough about what some our problems are and that’s the cause of some of our problems that do not get solved and actually end up gridlocked…

    we blame schools… the problem is us…

  20. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    @Viper – we talked about homeschooling. the teacher requirements in Va for homeschooling are a high school diploma.

    You could save a whale of a lot of money if the Henrico School system were able to hire teachers with only high school diplomas.

    would you support that as a way to save money?

  21. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    here’s something else to think about Viper.

    Va is but one of a handful of states that do not have school boards that levy taxes separate from the county.

    would you support dividing up the county and the schools for assessing taxes?

    if the county stayed more or less static and the schools kept increasing taxes – and the school board was elected – would that be okay? So if the taxes kept going up but the boards continued to get re-elected… ???

    re: “prolific”… others here don’t use that word.. they use the phrase “bull s_it”.

  22. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    FYI – ” School districts are local governments with powers similar to that of a town or a county including taxation and eminent domain, except in Virginia, whose school divisions have no taxing authority and must depend on another local government (county, city, or town) for funding.”

    would you support the ability of the School Board to levy taxes separately in Henrico?

  23. Viper Avatar
    Viper

    @larryg

    When I give you the last word, you can’t come back asking me a bunch of questions, ok? Perhaps you should write an article on this subject and get Jim to let you post it on the blog. We can then discuss/debate further. Perhaps the latest release of SOL scores is a starting point.

    You keep throwing statistics and rankings out there. Am I skeptical? Yes. I took statistics in college and know how easily you can make numbers say whatever you like. Do I discount them completely? No.

    BTW, yes, I believe you do not need a college education to teach the basics. Again, I relate to my personal experiences. I’ll put my wife, a non-college graduate, up against anyone you like when it comes to teaching fundamental reading, writing and math. When it comes to English usage, grammar, and composition–she’ll give any English major a run for the money.

    Now, for real, you have the last word. State your piece, but no more questions. Please.

  24. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    @viper – gee guy…

    I don’t make numbers do things.. I just provide the source of them so you can decide for yourself… my usual practice ….

    Okay.. so you are OKAY with Henrico hiring people with only a high school education to teach….

Leave a Reply

Read More