McDonnell’s Transportation Plan: Disaster on Wheels

The contrast between Virginia’s two gubernatorial candidates could not be more stark: Elephant clan candidate Bob McDonnell has thought long and hard about Virginia’s transportation issues and provides a detailed blueprint for how he would raise more money and spend it. Donkey clan candidate Creigh Deeds has very little to say about transportation at all. He conspicuously ignores the topic on the issues page of his website. And he has said little in his public pronouncements other than concede that, to quote the Washington Post, he would be willing to “sign a transportation plan that identifies new revenue to fix roads.”

Bottom line: McDonnell tells us with great specificity how he would squander billions of dollars in new revenue on transportation projects while Deeds asks us to take it on faith that he would squander the billions.

It appears that Deeds has little useful to say on the subject of transportation. Therefore we are left with the impression that either (a) he would pursue Business As Usual, or (b) he entertains ideas so radical that he doesn’t dare express them publicly for fear of not getting elected. In the absence of evidence otherwise, I will assume that the first explanation applies. Frankly, there is little more that we can say about Deeds’ approach to transportation.

McDonnell is much more complicated. His transportation platform does have a few good ideas. But a McDonnell transportation administration would focus on finding new money to inject into the system, not changing the way the money is spent. The phrase “land use” appears only once in his entire transportation treatise, and not in a context suggesting that he would build on the incremental reforms of the Kaine administration.

First, let’s talk about the good things in the McDonnell plan.

Prioritize traffic congestion and economic development. First, McDonnell would adopt the principle of prioritizing transportation projects based on their ability to reduce traffic congestion or promote economic development, in contrast presumably to projects flogged by lobbyists and politicians to open up new land for exploitation. “Just like any capital intensive business, we should invest in projects that make economic sense and are driven by demand, not projects that simply make it more likely for a politician to get re-elected.” (While this principle is fine in theory, I question whether it will be honored in practice, as I explain below.)

More technology, less asphalt. Second, McDonnell acknowledges that there are ways to mitigate congestion that don’t entail laying asphalt. He specifically mentions investing in traffic signaling technology. “It makes little sense … to skimp on technology investments because they may not offer the same kind of ribbon cutting opportunities that a new road does.”

Integrate growth, transportation planning. “Localities and regional entities should be encouraged to consider the relationship between land use policies and transportation policy when developing and assessing the impact of transportation plans.” Yes, McDonnell is right, regions should be encouraged to consider land use. Unfortunately, he has nothing useful to contribute on how they should be encouraged. The utter lack of detail suggests that a McDonnell administration would give no more than lip service to land use reform.

Now, let’s talk about the bad things in the plan. McDonnell, or the authors of his policy platform, have applied the vast majority of their creative energies into identifying new mechanisms for funding transportation that can’t be tagged as a “tax hike.” McDonnell’s proposals, if adopted, would create a flood of new revenue for Virginia transportation, which he would plow into a wave of new mega-project construction like Rail-to-Dulles, Interstate 81, the Coalfield Expressway, Interstate 66, the Hampton Roads 3rd crossing, high-speed rail and a host of others.

Apparently, McDonnell deems all of these projects to be high priorities. There doesn’t seem to be a regional mega-project that he doesn’t like. Based on his rhetoric, we can only surmise that he has already concluded without benefit of comparative cost-benefit studies that all of these projects make “economic sense.” So much for his core principle that transportation projects should be driven by “demand” — unless by “demand” he means the clamouring of lobbyists and special interests.

Here is a partial list of how McDonnell proposes to raise new revenues for transportation:

  • Expedite the issuance of $3 billion in bonds authorized by the General Assembly in 2007.
  • Issue another $1 billion in bonds for projects in congested areas.
  • In years when General Fund revenue growth exceeds 5%, dedicate the surplus to transportation.
  • Dedicate 75% of annual budget surpluses to transportation.
  • Privatize the Department of Alcohol Beverage Control and funnel the estimated $500 million into transportation projects.
  • Open up offshore oil and gas drilling and steer 80% of the royalties to transportation.
  • Dedicate 30% of state revenue attributed to the growth of the ports of Hampton Roads to transportation.
  • Slap tolls on Interstates 95 and 85 at the North Carolina border.

Ay yi yi! What do these measures have in common? They all support the illusion that transportation is an amenity that somebody else pays for. They have nothing to do with market-based principles whatsoever. At least with the good ol’ gasoline tax, the more you drive and the more gasoline you consume, the more tax you pay. It’s not perfect but at least there is a rational nexus between the tax and the benefit you derive from it. The same holds with tolls. McDonnell does endorse HOT lanes, but there is precious little else in his plan that squares with the user-pays principle.

While McDonnell says he would like to keep politicians out of the transportation decision-making mix, his financing schemes would only elevate their power. Who else would decide how to allocate bond monies, surplus General Fund revenues and the rest of the loose cash generated by McDonnell’s schemes?

In a nutshell, McDonnell would indiscriminately raise new transportation revenues from a variety of sources, sever the connection between those who use a transportation asset and those who pay for it, increase state indebtedness, make the system even more political than it is now, and plow billions into mega-projects favored by regional elites.

The nation is careening toward fiscal insolvency, and rather than tightening criteria for taxing and spending, McDonnell would open the money sluices for transportation. The globe is transitioning to an energy-scarce era of peak oil, and McDonnell would dump billions into projects conceived during an era of energy abundance. This isn’t mere Business As Usual, as bad as that would be — this is Business As Usual on steroids.

Update. Deeds has released his transportation plan, which he has packaged as part of a larger plan to jumpstart Virginia’s economy. Deeds supports the usual list of bridge-and-highway mega-projects, plus unspecified light rail and mass transit projects, without regard to social Return on Investment. Unlike McDonnell, he doesn’t say how he will pay for his “billion dollar transportation proposal.” I guess the money will materialize by magic. On the positive side, Deeds says he will promote telecommuting, flextime and ride sharing, and he would “connect transportation planning with smart land use decisions” by prioritizing growth in corridors already served by transportation infrastructure.


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101 responses to “McDonnell’s Transportation Plan: Disaster on Wheels”

  1. I would submit that both McDonnell and Deeds went through the same vetting process and by the time they got done being told what they could not do – by the defenders of the status quo… McDonnell steamed ahead with what he had left and Deeds said.. " I'm not going to claim that mess as a plan – instead I'm going to say "trust me").

  2. Here is Bobby's plan to solve the transpo in Hampton Roads – put oil platforms in the Naval Operating/Training area offshore, then the Navy moves to the welcome arms of Jacksonville, FL and closes most of the facilities in HR so all the military personnel and retirees move south. Thus, no need for 3rd crossing or other road/rail upgrades. Problem solved with no taxes!

  3. Anonymous Avatar

    "According to Robert Channick writing in the Chicago Tribune:
    …Modified golf carts are headed from the fairways to the roadways in Illinois, offering an … eco-friendly alternative for those satisfied with more leisurely travel.Dubbed "neighborhood electric vehicles" and retrofitted with safety features, the new category of mini-cars will be street-legal beginning Jan. 1. Operating for pennies per mile, limited to 25 m.p.h. and restricted to local roads, the battery-powered buggies are quietly generating buzz.

    … Morris Clement, 62, … is putting together four muscular prototypes in the fourth bay of his Fastlane lube shop….

    Neighborhood electric vehicles, or NEVs, were born more than a decade ago in Sun Belt retirement communities…. As increasing numbers of seniors plied the streets in golf carts, the federal government stepped in to regulate the vehicles in 1998, imposing minimal safety standards. Mandating a speed of no more than 25 m.p.h., the law added requirements for seat belts, brake lights, headlights, mirrors, turn signals and windshields.

    Nearly all states permit low-speed vehicles, with a range of restrictions….

    Most golf carts have a top speed of less than 15 m.p.h., so require souping up….

    Using a standard golf-cart frame, Clement drew upon his racecar design experience to reinforce the chassis, add independent suspension, large knobby tires and a 20 horsepower AC motor capable of producing speeds of 40 m.p.h…."

    We will need new lanes, just for these things. Where is the McDonnell plan for that?

    Anyone know what the Virginia Regs are? Since my daily trip is rapidly approaching a 30 MPH average,thai is looking more and more realistic.

    RH

  4. Anonymous Avatar

    "Virginia
    Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (NEV) Access to Roadways
    NEVs may not operate at a speed of more than 25 miles per hour (mph) and may only be used on roads that have a posted speed limit of less than 35 mph. The vehicle must comply with safety standards contained in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, section 571.500, meet the standards set forth in Virginia Code 46.2-908.2, and meet the same titling, registration and insurance requirements applicable to passenger cars."

    Gee, I imagine titling and insurance couldbe a problem.

    RH

  5. Anonymous Avatar

    Until we adopt an adequate public facilities law, this foolishness can never end. out-of-control development is at the root of most transportation and other public facility problems.

    In order for Tysons Corner to grow to 83-84 million square feet from 45 million, the Dulles Toll Road, for example, will need to be expanded from three to six interchanges within the 2.5 miles or so from the Beltway to just past Route 7. Since interchanges must be a minimum of one mile apart so that vehicles can enter, exit and merge safely (heck, a few dead people is a small price to pay for land speculator profits — not), the Dulles Toll Road must also be expanded from eight to thirteen lanes until Hunter Mill Road.

    What will the three new interchanges and five new lanes cost (four of the lanes must be collector-distributor lanes) cost?

    Now take a look at a hybrid satellite image — road map and tell me where the right-of-way is for all of this new highway facilities? What will it cost to obtain the right-of-way needed?

    Finally, tell me one good reason why any taxpayer or driver should pay an additional dime in taxes or fees to fund this absolute foolishness?

    Groveton, how much more would you pay for a 13-lane Toll Road, which MWAA, so far, has no plans to fund?

    TMT

  6. Anonymous Avatar

    where the right-of-way is for all of this new highway facilities?

    It is a self defeating prophesy, isn't it? The only way to get teh right of way is to tear down some of the development.

    Downtown Houston, for example is 75% streets, and that's not counting all the "streets" that are inside the parking garages.

    If you count the area in all the parking garages, then Houston is probably 10% development and the rest transportation.

    We can agree that Tyson's is out of control, but it is a small spot compared to Virginia's transportation problems. I don;t think we canuse Tyson's as an example of whats wrong. Since Virginia is still largely rural, how are all those other problems caused by out of control development?

    Too much development in too little space, maybe? Maybe the Tyson's problem IS generic, but dfferent in scale in other places?

    "according to Christopher Lineberger a real estate professor at the University of Michigan and a fellow at the Brookings Institution….we could see a repeat of what happened in center cities in the 1950's and 60's when abandoned homes set off blight.

    What we really need to do is reinvent entire communities as the sorts of places people want to live. That means building mass transit and urban style city centers away from the Metropolitan core."

    Imagine that, More Places.

    ———————

    My problem with TMT's argument is this: If you had APF laws, then you would depend on development to pay for infrastructure. And if development is out of control now……. It is a sham because APF laws are nto designed to provide infrastructure, they are designed to stop development.

    Which would be OK if development were really out of control. But people keep buying all that development: no one suspects that Tyson's will be built and go vacant, but THAT is the definition of development out of control.

    Now, who is going to fund all that mass transit and new urban style city centers away from the urban core? And how will you build urban centers without someone claiming developmnt is out of control?

    RH

  7. Anonymous Avatar

    Ray, how about limiting APF to NoVA? Alexandria, Falls Church, Manassas, Fairfax City, and Fairfax, Arlington, Prince William and Loudoun Counties. Fairfax County is essentially built out. We don't have spare infrastructure and cannot afford to build more. So why should we have more development under these circumstances?

    So I agree, we need more places. Always have and always will.

    TMT

  8. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    If this story is true, then state/local taxes will go through the roof just to maintain the current government. Add in all the fed giveaways, your take home pay is going to be a small portion of your total earnings.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/home-prices-wont-regain-peak-this-decade-moodys-2009-09-18

  9. McDonnell has a plan. Deeds does not. That's the whole story.

    Roads create jobs. We need jobs. That's the sub-plot.

    Every compaany who hires an educated employeee has benefited from the roads that allowed the kid to go to school. Everybody who buys anything in a store benefits from the roads that allowed the trucks to get the product to market.

    The Commonwealth spends $34B per year. What percentage of that is spent on roads?

    User pays? I'll believe it when I hear one person from outside NoVA and Tidewater explain how it applied to their locality.

    New human settlement patterns? Great idea on paper – kind of like the UN. But I think we'd better keep the Army for just a bit longer – you know, just in case this UN theory doesn't guarantee world peace. New human settlement patterns? Great idea on paper. But maybe sensible politicians like McDonnell ought to keep building road capacity until we have Manhattan population density levels served by Jetsons type technology.

    McDonnell is the only choice in this election.

  10. " McDonnell has a plan. Deeds does not. That's the whole story."

    perhaps. especially if you think it has some similarities to the 3202 "plan".

    funding transportation from the general fund.

    Actually, I find of like it in a way.

    So at some point.. all those folks that say rail and transit are "stealing" from auto transportation monies won't have a leg to stand on…

    The interesting thing is that we're already doing this but few folks know it.

    Already, 1/2% of the general sales tax – is pre-dedicated to transportation – about a 1/2 billion a year I believe.

  11. Anonymous Avatar

    The problem remains that transportation in Virginia has very little to do with moving people and goods safely and efficiently and everything to do with helping someone's speculative land purchase increase in value.

    I've had my differences with Gerry Connolly, but he was spot on when he told me that real estate investors tend to support any transportation project that gives them a windfall on the backs of someone else.

    The original plan for Dulles Rail was to travel to Dulles Airport in the median of the Toll Road. There would be stops at Tysons, Reston, Herndon. If that plan had been retained, rail would be built and working today.

    But the owners figured that they could get more density if they could move rail from the DTR through Tysons Corner and build more stations. So it got hijacked and became much more expensive. Now, we start adding all the costs to bring the Toll Road to 13 lanes. Add another lane to the Outer Loop of the Beltway between Tysons and I-66 beyond the HOT lanes. Widen 123 and 7, along with a number of other roads.

    What are the costs? Astronomical. And will any of this actually improve transportation. Not much. The added development will quickly overcome any transportation improvements.

    The great truth was told by a young woman working for VDOT in November 2005. I asked her why we were spending billions on rail without seeing any measurable improvement in level of service on nearby roads. The employee said that was because all the service improvements would be overwhelmed by all the new people coming to, and living in, Tysons.

    This is so stupid that only Fred Hiatt and his tax-loving editor pals could like it.

    Why should anyone pay a dime more in taxes when we have state and local government like this?

    TMT

  12. I'm not in major disagreement with TMT's assessment.

    I've watched in my own area when a new roads was proposed – proposed – just the beginning of an idea – and developers were buying up land and advertising developments that would be "easy-on, easy-off" to the road that was only in an idea stage.

    some would say that they were only using the potential of the road as a marketing ploy except if that were true, they'd not be buying options on land would they.

    However, I don't think developers are as thrilled with toll roads and HOT Lanes as "free" roads.

    and then we do now have some projects like Route 28 where useful infrastructure is being built from transportation districts.

    VDOT is doing different things now.

    They're practicing "access management" ..closing median cross-overs that snarl traffic, setting traffic signals that adapt to time of day traffic such that traffic entering from side streets has to "stack" rather than one car triggering the change.

    VDOT is now requiring (I think) that new subdivisions have two entrances and if they are cul-de-saced.. they may not accept them for state maintenance.

    One of the biggest problems with land-development in Va is that VDOT will accept for state maintenance any subdivision road built to state specs.

    This is very expensive – ask anyone who lives in a private development or gated community.

    The folks who live in subdivisions get far more back in street maintenance than they pay in gas tax.

    46 other states and all of Virginia's cities are required to be responsible for maintenance – a significant issue when considering a land-use change that will generate new roads and new traffic on existing roads.

    This is what has finally pushed VDOT over the edge… and the next thing on their cut list is – maintenance of local roads.

    In this context – McDonnell's "plan" is dead-on-arrival because money alone .. even money from funky sources.. is not going to "fix" VDOT.

    However, on paper, to most folks, McDonnell does indeed have a "plan".

    I predict some bombshells from the GA this year on transportation.

    Look for more reforms including VDOT getting out of the local road maintenance business and more PPTA for new roads that will be electronically tolled – no toll booths.

    Cameras will capture those without transponders and automatically bill the driver – at a higher rate than if he had a transponder.

    What that will leave is surface streets that are signed as Va Primary Roads and they may well remain the responsibility of VDOT.

    It is this kind of thing that is missing from McDonnell's plan and what I used to expect from fiscal conservatives…

    to get into what was actually causing the hemorrhage and figure out if reforms or tax increase were needed – and to go forward with common-sense proposals that would gain support.

    So in this regard, I see McDonnell's plan to be more of the same with a bit of a 3202 "tax this a little, then tax that a little, approach".

    not a well conceived plan IMHO.

    sounds more like something that got written on the back of an envelope at a "working" lunch.

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    "and everything to do with helping someone's speculative land purchase increase in value."

    But you think every land purchase is speculative.

    Anyway, I'll ask again, why do we have a double standard on this. If Metro causes increase in property vaolues we count that as a plus, but if a road or road improvement causes increase in property value we ccount that as a minus – even whne the developer pays for the road improvement.

    RH

  14. Anonymous Avatar

    "…real estate investors tend to support any transportation project that gives them a windfall on the backs of someone else. "

    Gerry Connolly was a real genius to spot that trend, wasn't he? That makes real estate investors different from the rest of the world exactly how?

    How long do you have to invest in property and sit on it before it is not a windfall? In Orange couny a WalMart was recently approved in the face of stiff (and sudden) opposition. The county supervisors, in granting the approval, correctly noted that the land had been zoned commmercial for decades, and the owner had paid commercial taxes on it for decades.

    ???

  15. Anonymous Avatar

    "The original plan for Dulles Rail was to travel to Dulles Airport in the median of the Toll Road. There would be stops at Tysons, Reston, Herndon. If that plan had been retained, rail would be built and working today."

    That is correct. And the rail link might actually have provided the service promised in Rail to Dulles.

    But with all the added stops, no one is going to travel from Dulles downtown by rail, especially depending on how far the rail stop is from the air terminal(s). You could easily get off the plane at the remote terminal and take the new tram to the main terminal, then take a shuttle bus to the Metro terminal, out in orange parking somewhere.

    It is a joke.

    A better plan would have been to build it in he median as described above, and then put in a spur or loop spur to Tysons. That way the Tysons stops would not get in the way of actual transportation.

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar

    they'd not be buying options on land would they.

    That is why they buy options, and not the land itself.

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar

    Ray, I don't care how much anyone speculates on any investment, but I do care when the speculator wants me to build him a road or a train when, but for his/her campaign contributions, some other road or train would be built. Or we could put the money into fixing the worst intersections.

    If Dulles Rail were so essential, why did Virginia officials allow it to be hijacked by the Tysons landowners? Why did our elected officials accept a no-bid contract for an elevated line that will be an eyesore from Day One? It's about manipulating the political process to transfer wealth from taxpayers to a few well-positioned landowners.

    No one is saying that these people cannot build to what is permitted under the Comp Plan or the zoning ordinance. No one is down-zoning them. The head of Fairfax County's Planning and Zoning group said that.

    But they don't want to build to what they are allowed to do. And they don't want to pay for what infrastructure it would cost to support the density that they want. Too bad. Let them either build to what they can do by right, or pay the costs for what is necessary to be upzoned.

    How is that wrong or unfair?

    TMT

  18. I think this (TOD) is one of those things that sounds good in concept but just like "smart growth" – can and is co=opted for land speculation.

    I was a bit shocked when last year we used the METRO station in Springfield and other than a couple of vending machines.. I did not see anything at all that resembled TOD.

    I noted the same thing at other METRO stations out in the margins of METRO….

    I don't know what the "recipe" is for TOD that "works" at some stations and not others but it makes me wonder whether TOD would "work" for Metro extensions UNLESS there was sufficient density – and I don't mean density with a small "d" but Density with a BIG "D" and so I wonder if this is part of the rationale that the would-be developers at Tysons are dealing with.

    But TMT is right. We've seen this same thing with roads and interchanges where the interchange is taxpayer-built then the surface streets it serves become commercial venues that can generate such traffic as to damage the utility of the road.

    I see some parallels for Tysons.

    and it's this kind of thing, that McDonnell – if he really wanted to take the bull by the horns could make the case – that development that requires taxpayer infrastructure or worse – seriously degrades existing taxpayer-funded infrastructure – is a problem.

    This hurts VDOT and it's hurts the State funding of transportation when taxpayer money has to be spend in dealing with the impacts of development.

    That's why the Rt 28 PPTA is a change from business-as-usual.

    just curious TMT – does the Tysons proposal have special tax districts as part of the proposal?

    re: adequate public facilities

    and .. LOSS – levels of service standards and special tax districts.

    One approach says the road is maxed and no more development will be permitted until the road is improved.

    the second approach says – maintain or even improve the LOS by using a supplementary tax on the property owners that will benefit from it.

    The other property owners also contribute because special tax districts require bonds and govt bonds usually cost less in interest than CDA (private) bonds.

    When the county issues a bond – it affect it's credit – it's rating and it's future borrowing capacity – where future county projects could be impacted if prior tax districts used up much of it's borrowing capacity.

  19. Anonymous Avatar

    "VDOT is doing different things now."

    Yeah, they are not doing anything, including mowing. My weed situation is much worse because they are not taking care of their property.

    On Rte 15, major improvements are being funded entirely by the developers. And of course, if theyfoot the bill, they are going to expect some rights in exchange.

    You ay very well get what you wish for: less expenditures by VDOT, and still get out of control development.

    VDOT at least has some incentive to get the road system to work, and so do the businesses along RTE 28. But the development on 15 is golfcourse residential, so I wouldn;t expect the developers there to do anymore than they absolutely have to do.

    This is not a recipe for a good transportation system.

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    "VDOT is now requiring (I think) that new subdivisions have two entrances and if they are cul-de-saced.. they may not accept them for state maintenance."

    That seems fair enough to me.

    Except, non cul-de-sac homes sell for less money. Local officials looking for tax revenue may not like that.

    If the developer can't get state maintenance, he'll set up a road trust administered by the HOA. If the fees are too high it will affect the value of cul-de-sac homes.

    The end result will be subdivisions with cut throughs, and state maintenance. The state will have saved nothing, but at least there will be cut throughs, and the resulting pedestrian injuries and deaths.

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar

    "..setting traffic signals that adapt to time of day traffic such that traffic entering from side streets has to "stack" rather than one car triggering the change."

    That situation ccurs because VDOT makes developers pay for the traffic signals. The Developers then argue that if my buyers are paying for the signal, then they had better benefit from it.

    It is a situation that has gotten out of control. What do you do if there is not eneough traffic on the side street to stack? You start a timer and make him wait for nothing. From the busy street side, they see the light turn red and one car comes out, so there is no visible difference to them either.

    RH

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar

    "Cameras will capture those without transponders and automatically bill the driver – at a higher rate than if he had a transponder."

    What century do you think that is going to happen in?

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar

    "I noted the same thing at other METRO stations out in the margins of METRO…."

    How would you have TOD for Metro stations at the margins? Those stations have to have signficant parking because there is no further destination: it is the end of access. You would have to put the TOD on top of the parking garages. That ought to sell well.

    Or you can can the garages and watch suburban support for METRO evaporate.

    If you are in Rosslyn, you can go to Alexandria, DC or Falls Church, so TOD makes some sense.

    But if you are in Springfield, well, you can go to Alexandria, or get in your car and go anyplace.

    Obviously, we need to stop that.

    RH

  24. Anonymous Avatar

    "…when, but for his/her campaign contributions, some other road or train would be built. "

    Which would benefit some other landowner. The one who didn't donate as much.

    I don't buy it. Given your starting premise, there is no outcome that will make you happy, unless maybe it affects your own land.

    To get a realistic result, you need to start with realistic premises. One place to start is to recognize that developers need 25% profit on their successful ventures in order to pay the costs for all the ones that get shot down.

    If you had regulations that were fair, transparent, and predictable, that might not be the case.

    As it is, we have created a game that only big builders can play, and they can play only if we grant them windfall profits.

    Then we complain about windfall profits.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar

    TMT: I appreciate where you are coming from, really. I just think your argument leaks like a sieve and it is unrealistic to boot.

    Development is going to coat what it costs and transportation is going to cost what it costs. There is no point in fooling ourselves that we will avoid the costs of transportation by privatizing (some of) it.

    I'll agree that the costs of some development (hyper dense and hyper spacious) are more than some other kinds. We ought to be measuring those costs realistically and approve more of the lest costly kind, whatever that turns out to be.

    It won't be Tysons, and it won't be Western Loudoun, either.

    RH

    RH

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    "…the second approach says – maintain or even improve the LOS by using a supplementary tax on the property owners that will benefit from it."

    Who would that be? I don't live anywhere near RTE 15 but I might still benefit if it were improved.

    Of course, the last thing I want is Rte 55 to be improved. It is dangerous enough for my tractor now, as I drive to the neighboring farms. I'd hate to be the property owner who paid for that "improvement".

    RH

  27. Anonymous Avatar

    "If Dulles Rail were so essential, why did Virginia officials allow it to be hijacked by the Tysons landowners? "

    Good question. And why did the Feds, wo provide much of the funding go along with this stupid idea?

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar

    "But they don't want to build to what they are allowed to do. And they don't want to pay for what infrastructure it would cost to support the density that they want. Too bad. Let them either build to what they can do by right, or pay the costs for what is necessary to be upzoned.

    How is that wrong or unfair?

    "

    I agree.

    But that is Tysons, which is a special case, by any measure.

    What is wrong or unfair about it is that we do not hold the same standard for people who are downzoned.

    What is wrong or unfair about it is when every landowner anywhere is accused of getting windfall profits just because of some (needed) road improvement. We take one good example of your argument, and then use it to set Claymore mines acros the state.

    And what is really wrong or unfair about it is that the Tyson's landowners are going to get away with it.

    RH

  29. Anonymous Avatar

    "… prioritizing transportation projects based on their ability to reduce traffic congestion or promote economic development, "

    Well, that is going to be tough, isn't it?

    We have spent decades selling ( and overselling and falsely selling) the idea that we canot build our way out of congestion. No project can make the priority list on that assumption because we have brainwashed people not ot believe it.

    And promoting economic development menas someone gets a windfall, and surely we can't have that.

    How about if you tax the windfall for five years and then let it ride?

    RH

  30. Anonymous Avatar

    " Second, McDonnell acknowledges that there are ways to mitigate congestion that don't entail laying asphalt. He specifically mentions investing in traffic signaling technology. "

    He lost my vote right there. Show me one place this has worked. Not only that, but first we put n advanced signal technology, and then we use it to give priority to streetcars.

    How well has this worked on Rte 7, for example.

    Yes, signal technology is one tool in the kit, but it is not a replacement for asphalt, any idiot should be able to see that.

  31. Anonymous Avatar

    Actually, VDOT has not implemented light timiing on Route 7 — at least not anywhere near Tysons. Watch a light turn green and then traffic move to the next green light.

    This is still a big area for improvement.

    TMT

  32. " You ay very well get what you wish for: less expenditures by VDOT, and still get out of control development."

    actually VDOT is broke in part because of development.

    remember – we're talking about VDOT – the taxpayer-funded entity.

  33. so I wouldn;t expect the developers there to do anymore than they absolutely have to do"

    which might well be more than they are doing right now.

  34. " The end result will be subdivisions with cut throughs, and state maintenance. "

    the result will be subdivisions with more than one entrance such that traffic signals won't be required for every new subdivision.

    "Cut-throughs" will be handled with traffic calming measures.

  35. "The Developers then argue that if my buyers are paying for the signal, then they had better benefit from it."

    but a light does not entitle you to screw up the mainline traffic.

    The "stack" in controlled by a timer so that once the time ticks down you get the light.

    You should wait when the mainline is maxed.

    if you flip the mainline signals every time some one pulls up.. it won't do them any good anyhow because the mainline will be so backed up they'll not even be able to get out from the sides.

  36. " What century do you think that is going to happen in?"

    I thought you were well read Ray.. that you kept up with things.. but now I wonder:

    https://www.platepass.com/TollAuthorities/AboutPlatePass.html

    PlatePass® Toll Payment Service is currently offered by Hertz and Advantage – two of the nation's largest rental car companies, and is available on some of the largest toll roads in the United States (View Locations).

  37. " Those stations have to have signficant parking because there is no further destination:"

    if there are LOTs of cars though.. there must be LOTs of people right?

  38. " But that is Tysons, which is a special case, by any measure."

    not true.

    it's not about profits, windfall or otherwise.

    it's about "right sizing" the development for the infrastructure available.

    Your argument is akin to saying that a development cannot pay for parking or water/sewer and still be profitable so it's not their fault.

    which is an interesting concept all in it's own right.

  39. "… prioritizing transportation projects based on their ability to reduce traffic congestion or promote economic development, "

    this has been the current approach and the two goals are in many respects mutually exclusive so having them in the same sentence allows McDonnell to say later that he DID support roads for economic development.

    that's been the problem all along.

    On virtually every major surface street with commercial – the business owners want cross-over medians even though those medians destroy the utility of the mainline road and promote traffic congestion, unsafe behavior and accidents.

    New roads that promote more residential that otherwise would not be viable are also considered to be "economic development".

    and for that matter TOD around rail stations is considered economic development.

    the important part not part of the conversation is – how much economic development do you get compared to the investments of public money and resulting congestion that ends up requiring even more public money to mitigate.

    Developers think that they are entitled to public money for their businesses and what McDonnel did was to agree.

    This is the same old, same old that is at the crux of why VDOT failed financially.

    If we only used tax money to build roads prioritized for the movement of good and services and required development to pay their fair share to mitigate, VDOT would still have money for roads – and more importantly, people would have been more willing to consider higher taxes.

    One of the reasons that people are opposed to higher taxes is that they believe that the money will just be further dedicated to "economic development", i.e. building roads for development.

  40. re: license plate readers

    not only for TOlls but for all manner of scofflaws including those who do not pay their bills:

    http://www.elsagna.com/

    "New Haven Collects Nearly $3 Million in One Year With MPH-900® ALPR
    The ALPR system recognizes license plates associated with drivers who owe back taxes, penalites and ticket fees."

    why not let VDOT put these readers on the highways and let them fund roads from a percentages of "sales"?

    now which of the two candidates is more likely to sign on this method of revenue recovery "enhancement"?

  41. Anonymous Avatar

    "… why VDOT failed financially."

    VDOT is failing financially because the gas tax was never indexed to the dollar instead of the gallon, and because it has not been riased since 1987.

    But you are missing the point. VDOT cold fail financially and yet the system it supports be a success. What, really is the overall benefit we recieve from transportation, compared to what we pay for it?

    Isn't the argument that developers get a windfall really an argument for the success of the VDOT supported system? A statement that it pays back more than it costs?

    What I hear you saying is that you have a problem with how the "losers" in an otherwise winning transaction get compensated.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar

    "…the money will just be further dedicated to "economic development", "

    Good Lord, we can't have that, can we?

    Every place on the planet has economic development as a reason to build or improve roads. without that there really isn't much reason. We can still argue about how the costs and benefits are distributed, but let's at least not call the benefits a cost when it comes to roads and a benefit when it comes to rail.

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar

    "..available on some of the largest toll roads in the United States "

    It is a long way from there to universally tolling all rural roads, which is what I understand yoru prediction to be.

    There is lots of technology available, but that doesn't mean that using it is necessarily a good idea. We may very well find out that cameras tracking and billing our every move turns out to be the Kepone of social policy.

    The reason tolls are popular is that most people don;t pay them, and they see it as a way to tax the other guy, like tolls at the NC border. But if you make them universal and enforce them with tens of thousands of ubiquitous cameras, well, the gas tax is going to llok like a good idea in comparison.

    RH

  44. Anonymous Avatar

    "…it's about "right sizing" the development for the infrastructure available."

    Right. Like I said, APF has nothing to do with actually providing adequate public facilities, it is about preventing development, just as your statement implies.

    If we were really going to do as your statemnet suggests, we would tear down half of the existing Tysons, to get to the size the infrastructure will support. And by contrast we could easily multiply the development here on the farm by a factor of ten, with very little impact.

    Neither one of those is going to happen, and we will continue to have pockets of failing transportation and reams of unused transprotation. (Schools of course, are another matter).

    I'd be all in favor of your statement if I thought for a second that it means what is says rather than being code for something entirely different.

    RH

  45. " Isn't the argument that developers get a windfall really an argument for the success of the VDOT supported system? "

    Nope.

    What's the argument?

    If we don't do more roads for transportation, we'll strangle economically – right?

    so the reason we would fail economically is….gridlock?

    so.. we have to build whatever it takes so that we do not fail economically?

    this is the old "we need a bypass" argument isn't it?

    We need a bypass because people can't get to the businesses on the original road but if we build a bypass then people will stop shopping on the other road we we need to allow businesses to locate on the bypass…

    until we need another one..

    who pays?

    well, of course.. someone else needs to pay for the bypasses because it wouldn't be economic development otherwise – right?

    this is the kind of bizarre logic that has led to VDOT's finance issues – not indexing the gas tax.

    Indexing the gas tax in the context of our current approach to using transportation money for economic development will only lead to more money spent on roads – not for the movement of goods and services but instead as venues for private profit.

    so we have a beltway and the solution to our traffic problems is what?

    an outer beltway and a western transportation corridor and the funding for such a thing should come from where and who and why?

    How about a region-wide indexed gas tax and let the folks in this region decide at election time how much of that money they would support for "economic development"?

    Actually McDonnell has suggested the first half of that by re-designating existing sales taxes towards transportation – without really saying what would be def-funded by re-dedicating the sales tax.

    So far.. no one has said – what might get de-funded when the sales tax is re-designated.

    I submit that once we know what would de-funded that the real discussion will begin.

    So, I give McDonnell credit for his approach – to suggest that it is a regional issue and requires some regional decisions about what the funding priorities are (and are not).

  46. "universal tolling of roads"

    this is an interesting concept especially if you have a road that experiences gridlock-like conditions at peak hour.

    Not every trip that is made at peak hour – needs to be made a peak hour but the fact is simply that as long as there is "no cost" to those driving at peak-hour – they will continue to drive at time when it's not in their interests much less others.

    Paying to drive at peak hour would cause everyone to think about whether or not their trip must be made at peak hour.

    and at the same time – it would generate funds to improve the roads so they can handle more traffic – even at peak hour.

    It's a balancing mechanism that requires no tax increase and only those who "need" will pay and those that determine that they don't need to – after all – won't pay.

    I can see a situation where people simply defer their trips to off-peak hours which is what some folks do right now when they start their commute at 5 a.m. and leave work outside of the standard peak-hours.

    tolls would actually reward these folks and assign costs to those who should be paying.

  47. Anonymous Avatar

    "The Developers then argue that if my buyers are paying for the signal, then they had better benefit from it."

    "…but a light does not entitle you to screw up the mainline traffic."

    I agree, Larry, I'm just telling you what happend in the past, how we got this way. The practice (apparently) has been, in fact, that paying $80 or $160 grand to put up a lght DOES give you some rights.

    And I'm pointing out that the proposed fix won't necessarily make any difference. It only makes a difference if there is enough side traffic to create a stack. If there isn't, then you have one car idling for three to five minutes unnecessarily, (not a green thing) and when he finally does come out, that one car is STILL going to stop all the traffic on the main road.

    Unless an actual queue develops the net change will be zero. The real situation (often) is that given the vlume of traffic on the main road the side traffic would wait indefinitely, unless there is a light present.

    Now, if you have a sensor that first recognizes when a car shows up to wait at the light, and then predicts whether a queue willl develop any time soon, then you have a plan.

    Otherwise the situation is that you have a finite proability that you trade one bad result (stopping traffic for one car to enter) for two bad results (same thing but now you have an idling car), and the rest of the time you still stop traffic, but now you do it for three or four cars, whch have been sitting idling. It is a marginal improvement over stopping through traffic four times in quick succession.

    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the proposed changes, just that if you think it all the way through, you can see the result won't be what is suggested by those who support the change.

    This isn't rocket science, all you have to do is go down to the corner and look at what happens where there is a small set of garden apartments in the middle of a block. Big development, it is a different story.

    RH

  48. Anonymous Avatar

    Actually, VDOT has not implemented light timiing on Route 7 — at least not anywhere near Tysons.

    As I understand it, light timing was in the plan for Rte seven and it was a big promise from Wolfe,a nd a big embarassment when it didn't happen.

    Whether they couldn't get it to work or it was neer funded, I don't know. Also we wouldn't want to do anything to compete with the greenway.

    I wouldn't expect it to work anywhere near Tyson's either.

    RH

  49. Anonymous Avatar

    "The result will be subdivisions with more than one entrance such that traffic signals won't be required for every new subdivision."

    Nonsense. For the most part you will now have TWO traffic lights, one at each end.

    And the point is that you will STILL have state maintenance, so you won;t have saved anything.

    And what is the point of that, if you are going to have traffic calming so that the (state required) cut throughs cannot be used anyway? Might as well keep the cul-de-sacs.

    Jeez, Larry, THINK. And try not to do it in circles.

    RH

  50. many subdivisions with one entrance result in cars having to come all the way around to get to the light- that adds to the traffic.

    two signals – yes but each of them have left turn lanes and right turn accel/decel..

    traffic moves more easily.. and traffic that gets off the mainline quicker relieves congestion quicker.

    the purpose of the multiple entrances is not to create alternative routes for traffic not bound for that neighborhood but rather for traffic specific to that neighborhood multiple ways to get in and out instead of a single entrance.

  51. re: waiting at the side streets in period of high congestion…

    what's the difference between waiting on a side street and waiting on the mainline?

    Ahh… glad you asked.

    20 cars on the mainline and 2 cars waiting on the side streets is two less cars on the mainline…

    2 less cars on the mainline, multiplied by 20, 30, 100 times means less cars stacked at the left turns on the mainline which means less traffic blocked when the left turns back up into the mainline.

    It's better to have cars "stacked" at the side streets than "stacked" at the left turns on the mainlines.

    keeping cars on the side streets until enough cars exit from the mainline to allow room is a logical strategy.

    It also is a good strategy to let people decide if they want to wait at the side streets or wait 30 minutes or an hour to make that trip or to leave earlier before max rush hour to make their trip.

    Not every trip .. in fact, Many, if not most trips are not trips that can ONLY be made at the height of rush hour to start with.

    In fact, congestion, lets people decide how important their trip is for the time it will require them to encounter delays.

  52. In Spain for a few days (Madrid) – I will provide a quick overview on transportationa and development here in Madrid toward the end of the week.

    Meanwhile …

    1. The Tyson's plan is pretty helter-skelter. However, there is a lot of NIMBY-ism in McLean and Vienna that will complain about any plan.

    2. If the Navy can't avoid sailing into oil platforms and/or flying into oil platforms – we need a new Navy. Of course, that assumes there is actually any oil there. This argument is fishy (pun intended).

    3. The entire state of Virginia should have an adequate public facilities law – not just NoVa.

    4. The development industry is a more malevolent special interest than most because they are a more effective special interest than most. Strict caps on campaign comtributions in Virginia is the only way we'll ever muzzle these dogs.

    5. Rail is the right mid-term answer. We should be investing in rail by allowing the government to build passenger rail without perfect and immediate business cases. However, we need more road capacity now.

    6. McDonnell has a plan and Deeds does not.

  53. Groveton – how about a traffic report from Madrid?

  54. McDonnell has a plan …. to deal with developer worship and special interest money polluting our elections?

    COOL!

    where can I find this plan on his website?

    Deeds is not any better, I agree… but picking McDonnell for having a plan that walks and talks like the stinky parts of the 3202 legislation is a stretch also.

    However, to be fair, he also talks about tolls and HOT and the like.

    He's apparently not cognizant o the FHWA rules with respect to tolling existing interstates but at least he is thinking along those lines.

    I'll be dollars to donuts that if extra (voluntary) lanes for I-95, I64, I-81 was built that it could pay for itself on tolls but I'd await a study to show that….

    so why did McDonnell not say that?

  55. Anonymous Avatar

    "The entire state of Virginia should have an adequate public facilities law – not just NoVa."

    I'd like to propose that the entire state enact an adequate money law, : it would make about as much sense.

    Do you think that the barrios of Sao Paulo would not exist if only they had an APF?

    APF just means Any Place Faraway.

    RH

  56. Anonymous Avatar

    "….this is the old "we need a bypass" argument isn't it?"

    You lost me. I don't see any similarity between the two arguments.

    RH

  57. Anonymous Avatar

    "two signals – yes but each of them have left turn lanes and right turn accel/decel.. "

    At least we agree on the two signals.

    You are still missing the point. As I understand your complaint, the problem is the state accepts all these subdivision roads which are essentally private, and this is costing us a bundle.

    So VDOT requires Cut throughs, so that the roads are not private, but now the state still has to acept them.

    How does that solve your complaint?

    It doesn't, the state still has to pay. And then you suggest that the roads will remain essentially private because of traffic calming measures.

    Your argument is so circular it makes me dizzy. I don;t even see what it is you are trying to get at.

    The whole point of the cut throughs was to offer more routes, even if the people living there hate it. If the cut throughs do offer more routes, then the traffic light at the development intersection can no longer be construed as a light "for the development".

    Queues that develop at the light can no longer be considered as "stopping the main traffic flow" because they are equally (or more equally)part of the main traffic, because those cars may come from the development or anywhere beyond it.

    But lets say the traffic calming works, and the state pays to accept these streets for nothing. The end result is the same (almost) as accepting cul-de-sac streets. and suppose there isn;t enough traffic to generate a queue. So I come up to the light and it triggers a timer. No one shows up behind me and eventually the timer expires: the light stops the main traffic and one car pulls out and proceeds on its way, after sitting there polluting for three minutes.

    The public on the main road is not going to see any visible difference in the events that happen, and some jughead is going to come up with the idea that we need to fix this problem.

    You lost me. Is the problem that the state spends too much on (essentially)private roads, or is it that we have too many (essentaily) private roads and not eneough cut throughs? Or is the problem that our transportation system is screwed up by short cycling lights, but we are going to fix it by putting in TWO short cycling lights. Or is the problemthat we put in two short cycling lights and that allows windfall profits for the developers of that subivision?

    I can't tell what you are against and what you are for.

    RH

  58. Anonymous Avatar

    "Rail is the right mid-term answer. We should be investing in rail by allowing the government to build passenger rail without perfect and immediate business cases. However, we need more road capacity now."

    And the only way to build more road capacity is with tolls and user fees so that cars can pay their own full costs.

    And the way to buil rail is to divert or increase those user fees, so we won't have to raise taxes or create new ones.

    The right of ways are full of development and EPA won't let you build a new road anyway.

    And what is the cure for all of this: More Density Just Not In My Back Yard.

    You guys should patent this as fantasy politics, just like fantasy football.

    At least fanatsy football makes money.

    RH

  59. Anonymous Avatar

    "The (220 spaces) reduction in parking is part of a garage rehabilitation project slated to last 18 to 20 months. The project, which will happen in 12 phases, includes concrete, structural and electrical repairs of the 12-year-old facility, which opened in June 1997, Metro said. "

    18 to 20 months for MAINTENANCE?

    Not to get any more parking but just for repairs to the existing facility?

    If you figure this is a recurring situation, and may occur more frequently as years go by, that means those spaces will be out of service for 20% of their lifetime.

    That is the kind of maintenace issues we face, let alone APF for new: we can;t or won;t even pay APF for old.

    RH

  60. the multiple entrances are not for "cut-through" traffic but to all multiple access points to multiple, perhaps adjacent developments.

    that allows traffic to enter/exit at multiple places instead of having to drive all the way around to one single entrance.

    What VDOT is saying is that if you want a subdivision that is built as a private one with but one entrance, then it contributes to congestion and traffic more than it can be justified to be maintained with public taxes.

    The maintenance requirements of many subdivisions exceeds what folks pay in gas taxes or it consumes much of it so that they really do not contribute to the maintenance and operations outside of their subdivision proportionally compared to someone who lives in an apartment – and pays the same gas taxes and their rent includes the maintenance of their parking lot.

  61. " after sitting there polluting for three minutes."

    if the light changed right away – what would you do?

    you sit in traffic for 3 minutes or more because every light up and down the mainline would put more traffic on the mainline from sides streets.

    waiting the side streets, if it allows the mainline to move quicker is better than waiting on the mainline if it has the effect of slowing it down further.

    It's a simple as asking if 20 cars take us more space than 30 cars especially if the 30 are stacked in the left lane and back up into the mainline.

    have cars wait on the side streets helps to keep the backups from getting bigger and you don't wait any longer on the mainline than you were on the side street anyhow since you have to wait no matter what (when the timers are set to hold traffic on the side streets).

  62. Anonymous Avatar

    "you sit in traffic for 3 minutes or more because every light up and down the mainline would put more traffic on the mainline from sides streets."

    You either don't understand or you are ignoring my point. And now you are arguing from a what-if this occurs many times situation, which is an attempt to change the argument.

    Even with this added condition, it does not change the result of the argument.

    Suppose there is not enough side street traffic to generate a Queue.
    If that is the case, then it does not matter whether the single car that triggered the sensor has to wait or not: it is going to cause the same interruption to main line traffic, eventually. And even if this this happens many times at different intersections it makes no difference to the flow of trafffic on the main line whether the single cars have to wait or not. The main line is equally disrupted either way.

    The only difference is when, exactly, they disrupt the flow of traffic. And that will make no difference to the flow on the main line.

    The only other difference is whether the side street cars (individually) sit idling or not.

    Nothing else changes.

    If, on the other hand, they generate a Queue whle they are waiting, then the condition changes, and that condition favors a longer wait to generate longer queues, up to a point.

    At present, we don't have sensors that can differentiate those conditions (without queue and potentially with queue), but for enough billions, we could do it.

    Or we could go identify and solve the real problem, and quit screwing around at the margins.

    RH

    PS you can make a simulation of this with an Excel sheet in a half hour or so.

  63. Anonymous Avatar

    "I can see a situation where people simply defer their trips to off-peak hours which is what some folks do right now when they start their commute at 5 a.m. and leave work outside of the standard peak-hours.

    tolls would actually reward these folks and assign costs to those who should be paying."

    You should differentiate better. now you are talking about congestion pricing which is different from generalized tolls, as you described tem above.

    Or, you can consider generalized tolls as a special condition of congestion pricing in which the fees are uniform because there is no congestion.

    If you want to incentivize epople to go someplace ales and create new places, I can think of no better way to do it than congestion pricing. And it would require a uniform measure of how much is too much: you would hate to pay $5.00 for LOS C in one jursidiction and pay $5.oo for LOS B in antother.

    RH

  64. " Suppose there is not enough side street traffic to generate a Queue.
    If that is the case, then it does not matter whether the single car that triggered the sensor has to wait or not: it is going to cause the same interruption to main line traffic"

    Let's say over some time range you have six cars on the side street…

    in one scenario – you'd change the green six separate times.

    in the queue/delay scenario, you might – over time – over have 3 greens instead of 6.

    That's 3 less times that the mainline does not get delayed.

    right?

    and that means that cars turning off that mainline – turn off of it quicker keeping the throughput higher…

    this is pretty much a proven and accepted technique…

    do you want cites?

  65. Anonymous Avatar

    "in the queue/delay scenario, you might – over time – over have 3 greens instead of 6."

    Yes, no argument there, if there is enough traffic to generate a queue. It is the if that counts. But every time a single car goes through, there is no difference and no gain to be had.

    A light cycle is what, three minutes for a normal light. So you trip the sensor and trigger the three minute wait time.

    Only if another car arrives during that time do you save a cycle, again, no argument with that. It is only that the benefit is not as promised because there is a probability distribution as to whether a queue forms or not. In short it is no panacea to our transportaton problems, not even a blip on the radar.

    These lights don't even use a normal three minute cycle: they are normally red on the side street side unless an event is triggered by the sensor. When the light turns green it is for a very short period, maybe enough for three cars if you rush. Because they do not work on the same logic as other intersection lights they make the whole issue of light timing more difficult.

    Sometimes the sensor is in the pavement and set back from the stop line. An event isn't even triggereed until the second car arrives. Sometimes I've had to back up and hit the sensor again to get a light. Otherwise you could sit there all night, or until you lose patience.

    Some of them must have more sophisticated sensors, because they apparently have enough sense to hold the light green for varying numbers of cars, and switch back to red once the queue ends.

    We will eventually have very sophisticated systems, modeled after the airpace system. There will be no traffic signals, and the cars will negotiate directly with each other over right of way as they approach the intersection. You will have a seamless four way zipper with inches of clearance, and no stopping at all.

    Sounds impossible today, but if we are going to make a dent in our problems we will have to think a lot bigger.

    RH

  66. Anonymous Avatar

    "That's 3 less times that the mainline does not get delayed.

    right?"

    Yes, but only if the queue develops, if it doesn't, then you are just wasting gas.

    I was driving a "normal" care recently, and I got all freaked out when it didn't shut off at the light (What's wrong with this thing?). Weird what you get used to if you drive a hybrid.

    RH

    RH

  67. " it is no panacea to our transportaton problems, "

    it's managing to achieve as good a condition as possible…

    or to put it another way.. it's managing to remove the things that harm the overall flow the most.

    you may also notice than in these "timed" corridors that the left turns are delayed also – usually with significant queues and with the same quick lights such that during peak hour traffic, your left turn may take several cycles.

    it's the same logic used for the side streets… to hold in a queue – turning traffic that would result in stopping the mainline traffic.

    In the timed corridors – the left turn lights are time with the side street lights and while you could look at a particular side street and claim that there was no effect .. it would not be true of all the side streets in that timed corridor and that's the point… to not have side street demand traffic – uncoordinated just like the left turns… you don't want them each going on an a schedule that is not coordinated with the other turning movements.

    it's a system approach… there is some math involved .. queuing theory, etc

    and yes.. if a sensor is not placed correctly or is malfunctioning then it wo't work as optimally as it might.

    I know some side streets that simply don't work at rush hours some times… the locals know not to use that street or to make a right turn and then move left to the next left turn – "U" turn lane.

    alright.. now…

    is this an issue worthy of claiming as an issue at the election of a Gov?

    It's not like VDOT does not already do this.. and not like they are working to expand it…

    so what is it that McDonnell is promising?

    to make VDOT do more of it ..faster, cheaper, better?

    ha ha ha ha…

    If you just took VDOT of out the proposal and inserted all gov functions.. it would sound as silly as it really is.

    One would assume that the Gov would be "making the rounds" to make sure all the agencies are doing everything they should be doing – like the folks in charge of them don't really know and/or consider that part of their jobs.

    The job of Gov is more programmatic in my view.

    for instance, he would make sure that audits are done – across the board.. and that the results are made available to the public – and addressed – measured and acted upon – as part of a process that is ongoing and a permanent part of the modus operandi of the State.

    To pick out one agency – and one that has been picked on by a steady succession of Govs (not without justification) and to make a campaign promise to ensure that it does a more thorough job of "timing" the roads is amusing to me.

    Someone on his staff came up with this idea- then it was vetted by his team and then he makes it one of his campaign issues…

    I'm not sure what to make of it to be honest.

    I can't believe that he has folks on his team that are that naive about "government" that they'd be so down in the weeds on the micro level… on these kinds of issues…

    but then again.. it took 3202 to get VDOT to begin disciplines like access management and traffic studies so who knows.

  68. Anonymous Avatar

    This just in! The state doesn't even have the $$$ to build a public-private toll road to replace US 460. What does that do to McDonnell's Transpo Plan? http://tinyurl.com/mgnart

  69. Anonymous Avatar

    According to the energy economist Phil Verleger, a $1 tax on gasoline and diesel fuel would raise about $140 billion a year. If I had that money, I’d devote 45 cents of each dollar to pay down the deficit and satisfy the debt hawks, 45 cents to pay for new health care and 10 cents to cushion the burden of such a tax on the poor and on those who need to drive long distances.

    Such a tax would make our economy healthier by reducing the deficit, by stimulating the renewable energy industry, by strengthening the dollar through shrinking oil imports and by helping to shift the burden of health care away from business to government so our companies can compete better globally. Such a tax would make our population healthier by expanding health care and reducing emissions. Such a tax would make our national-security healthier ….
    There is something wrong when our country is willing to consider spending more lives and treasure in Afghanistan, where winning is highly uncertain, but can’t even talk about a gasoline tax, which is win, win, win, win, win — with no uncertainty at all. So, I ask yet again: Who are the real cheese-eating surrender monkeys in this picture?

    Fropm the New York Times, "Real Men Tax Gas"

    RH

  70. re: US460

    here's the real reason they are not going forward:

    "Tolls alone are not going to be able to sustain the project. It won't work without a contribution from the public sector."

    I think this is interesting from a point of view of how we define "need".

    What does it mean if we say there is a "need" for this road but there won't be enough demand for it for the tolls that would be charged?

    Obviously, this plays right into the issue of "economic development" and "need".

    A road that is REALLY needed for economic development or ofr that matter just as an improved transportation corridor would be willingly paid for in tolls.

    no?

  71. "real men" taxes.

    that's exactly what Europe and virtually every other industrialized country does.

    One penny in Va raises about 50 million so 100 times that would bring in about 5 billion a year assuming everyone work drive just as much and not buy more fuel efficient cars.

    and that's the rub.

    Europeans drive, on average about 1/2 as much as we do and they use 1/2 as much fuel per capita as we do.

    further potential "benefits" – more fuel efficient cars = cleaner air = potential relaxation of the non-attainment restrictions …

    but this would be political suicide, we all agree.

    So the only way this happens is if the candidate lies.. says he will not increase taxes then turns around and not only increases them but triples them (in Va).

    It would never happen. Getting the Va Gen Assembly to increase taxes on gasoline – to date – has been a spectacular flop.

    And all these guys in Congress coming up for midterm elections are not going to vote to raise taxes.

    Our folks, in this country, prefer tolls about 2-1 over taxes.

    that number has stayed pretty constant.

    a politician could support tolls and survive.

    but roads that won't "work" as stand-alone toll roads are not going to get built – simply because Va/VDOT have no money to supplement them with.

    That's why the US 460 is going away.. and it might be why the HOT Lanes might go away if Transurban cannot get private equity money without more money coming from the state.

    But I was always curious anyhow as to why you'd build a brand new separate corridor between Richmond and HR/TW instead of adding new toll lanes to I-64 which would get their share of during busy times…

    I'd pay $5-10 bucks per trip to get out from behind these 20-car "trains" blocking the left lanes of I64 much of the time.

  72. Anonymous Avatar

    "REALLY needed for economic development or ofr that matter just as an improved transportation corridor would be willingly paid for in tolls.

    no?"

    No. It is silly to think that way.

    Dulles greenway went bust, and was was restructured. Meanwhile usage went up, tolls went up, and now it pays for itself. The restructuring amounted to an influx of free cash, same as if it were government support.

    But, had the true facts been known up front it would have never happened becuase the initisal demand and intitial toll revenue would not carry it until it eventually became profitable.

    You can't get to the long term profit wthout the short term profit. But government can afford to and should take a longer view of such things.

    When I wanted to start a commuter Airline out of Richmond, it wouldn't pay, initially. I figured it would take five years of reliable and inexpensive service to develop the market to a self sustaining condition, but operations during that time would need some kind of subsidy, fom government or patient investors.

    Same deal with 460.

    Well, why not wait until the demand is there before you build the road? Because it costs a lot more to build later.

    What I am willing to pay in tolls depends on what the road will save me in other costs, and that isn't related to what the road costs. I may have a real need to save those other costs, such that if I don't save them I go out of business. but that still might not be enough to pay for a new road, right now.

    To do this analysis you cannot just ask if the road will pay for itself.

    What you have to do is consider the costs of doing nothing, vs the costs of building or improving the road. Then, if the costs of doing nothing are more than what it will take to provide extra support to the road for a few years, then the road is still an economic winner, even if the tolls won't support it directly.

    You cannot do an aconomic analysis of just a road, you have to do an economic analysis that compares you rvarious options, one of which is "do nothing".

    RH

  73. Anonymous Avatar

    " that's exactly what Europe and virtually every other industrialized country does."

    No they don't Larry. We have been through this before. Their gas taxes go to the general fund, and not the transportation fund, and therefore they get much more support.

    That is more or less what the article suggested, use the gas tax to pay down the deficit and get conservatives on board with it. Use the gas tax for health care and get the liberals on board with it.

    ———————————-

    "Europeans drive, on average about 1/2 as much as we do and they use 1/2 as much fuel per capita as we do."

    We've been through that before and it is also not true. They drive about 70% as much as we do.

    And that is in spite (because of) a number of mitigating factors 1) they dont't have as far to drive as we do 2)they haven't got the money 3)they spend as 3) they spend as much money on rail infrastructure as they do on road infrastructure. 4) as a (partial) consequence of using less fuel and travelling less, they produce less GDP per capita, so they are less productive. Being less productive they have no choice but to consume less.

    The question is how much they travel total, not how much they drive, and how much it costs them, total. Since the rail subsidies come out of what they pay to drive, they may as well use the train when it is conveneient, which is about 15% of the time.

    What is true is that they pay much more in fuel tax per capita than we do, and their politicians have not committed suicide.

    ——————————-

    So no. I do not agree that raising the gas tax is political suicide. I certainly think it is less so than creating a whole new bureaucracy and business of building and managing a huge network of cameras and toll booths to track and bill us for every move we make.

    For whatever money any other system is supposed to raise, the equivalent gas tax can do it better, more fairly, and cheaper.

    ——————————–

    "So the only way this happens is if the candidate lies.. says he will not increase taxes then turns around and not only increases them but triples them (in Va)."

    Which taxes are you talking about? Transportation taxes or general taxes? As far as transportation goes it is going to take more money to fix the problem one way or another. The best way to do it is the gas tax. You may have to use the gas tax to replace some other taxes, and make it a LOT higher, as the Eropeans do, in order to make it palatable, but it is still the best known way to do it.

    Charge the tax per dollar spent on fuel, and you automatically charge for weight carried and miles carried, fuel efficincy of vehicle and driving habits. What more could you possibly want from a tax?

    Or do the same thing through a whole new bureaucrcy and charge 4 times as much. It is still more taxes, any way you slice it.

    If it costs three times as much it might still be cheaper than doing nothing.

    ——————————-

    "Our folks, in this country, prefer tolls about 2-1 over taxes."

    Larry, Larry Larry.

    That is a stated preferece, based on some surveys. Go out and do and actual survey of what people do, and what they actually spend and you get a different answer. Like my friend who said she stopped using the Greenway once the tolls exceeded $5.

    Of course they are going to say that in a survey, because they figure they won;t be the ones paying the tolls: just like my friend isn't.

    But for crying out loud, if the tax is effectively per mile (like the gas tax) there is no mathematicall difference between a gas tax and a toll that raises the same money.

    Why do we care if the pols are lying to us about raising one tax per mile or a different tax per mile? Because tolls and cameras are going to coast a lot more to collect the same spendable money, that's why.

    Real men step up to the plate of reality and the wimps hide behind some survey.

    RH

  74. Anonymous Avatar

    "a politician could support tolls and survive.

    but roads that won't "work" as stand-alone toll roads are not going to get built – simply because Va/VDOT have no money to supplement them with."

    Great, so what you are saying is that a politician could support tolls and survive as long as he supports tolls that are insufficient to do the job.

    Now look at what I said before about what people are actually willing to pay. If you set the toll taxes high enough to do the job, those same people who claimed they prefer tolls will wind up driving a long way to avoid them, burning gas and paying gas taxes the whole way.

    Toll taxes high enough to do the job place too high a burden on too few people too soon, so they can't get the needed job done.

    They are a failure in fact, a failure in policy making, an economic failure. They are an outright lie staring us in the face and if we are too stupid to see it, then we deserve the lying politicians we get.

    ——————————-

    Transurbans not going to get private equity money unless they can see how they are going to get paid back: in the short term and the long term.

    You would really hate to be some of the private equity money invested in the first incarnation of the Greenway, or Pocahontas.

    How many examples do we need?

    And when it comes around to raising toll taxes again, the next time, would you prefer government do it or private eneterprise?

    ——————————

    "I'd pay $5-10 bucks per trip to get out from behind these 20-car "trains" blocking the left lanes of I64 much of the time."

    Don't understand. If they are in the left lane they are probably well above the speed limit already. You mean you would pay more to go faster?

    Or is it because the lead car of 20 is yacking on the scell phone and holding everyone else back? How do tolls solve that problem for you?

    Or is it the trucks you are talking about?

    —————————–

    If you are going to use the same arguments over again, after I already provided data and citations to (partially) refute them, at least qualify them as to what conditions you think they still apply.

    RH

  75. re: toll roads that go bankrupt and don't pay for themselves.

    Bankrupt means you go away… the road cannot pay for itself.

    No one is going to invest in or pay for a business that has more in expenses than costs. they close them.

    the Greenway nor the Pocahontas Parkway went "broke" in that sense or else the companies that eventually took them over would be what ? fools?

    With US 460 – you have to ask yourself – why tolls would not pay for it.

    In other words, people would not be willing to pay the tolls that would be needed to build it.

    In terms of "need" – you have to calculate the actual costs to fulfill that "need" and if the costs are more than the "need" what does that mean?

    Well, it means that I want a Toyota Pruis for 10K… right?

    that's not a need… that's a want.

    "needs" have to match up with the real world otherwise, you just put them on the list of things you cannot afford.

  76. " Well, why not wait until the demand is there before you build the road? Because it costs a lot more to build later."

    if the demand is there, it's just like any other start-up business. You need start-up money sufficient to keep you in business until it becomes profitable.

    Businesses with high startup costs (like skyscrapers) have to be built at a loss until they are occupied and it takes years for them to become profitable.

    this is all worked into the finances.

  77. re: Europe – agree.. not 1/2 but significantly less and a direct result of gasoline prices.

    re: using gas taxes for the general fund…

    don't we have the opposite problem here in Virginia with McDonnell advocating using general fund taxes for transportation?

    Don't we also have folks here that raise holy heck when we "raid" the transportation fund?

    What I'm pointing out is exactly this – that Europe, Japan and the rest of the world uses higher gas taxes to tamp down driving, encourage more fuel efficient cars, encourage people NOT to live 50 miles from their job…

    and then use that money for rail and other things like health care.

    Now show me where McDonnell (or Deeds) has come even close to proposing this for Virginia….

    McDonnell has a "plan".. it's basically more of the same… he just specified what "more of the same" actually was…

    The Europeans not only have $5 gasoline but they also have TOLL Roads and in some cities CORDON tolls, and redlight/speed cameras,

    Europeans value multi-modal mobility – they support it. The support using the gas tax to pay for rail.

    we don't.

    you keep saying Ray.. that you oughta get what you pay for – right?

  78. Anonymous Avatar

    "if the demand is there, it's just like any other start-up business."

    —————————–

    I don't suppose you feel the same way about wind and solar, though. How about someone who wants to starta hazardous waste cleanup business: you think he can drum up enough demand for dredging the Hudson? (Or would tht be dredging enough demand to drum up the Hudson?)

    What you are describing is exatly why this is NOT like other start up businesses.

    Besides that, you are artificially constraining the problem. On the one hand you are opposed to roads becasue they are a windfall for developers, but then you turn around and insist that the road be 100% paid for by the small subset of beneficiaries who happen to be the road users.

    Such an argument is only designed for one thing: prevent road construction, whether there is intrinsic value to it or not.

    And, on top of that by trying to privatize the road you automatically requires a higher discount rate and quicker payback than public works generally have.

    What I'm trying to explain to you, regardless of what my feelings might or might not be is this: if I can see holes in your argument big enough to drive a truck through, so can anyone else.

    Even if I agree with the goal, I can't agree with the arguments, because they are worthless. I wouldn't want anybody on my side of an issue making such crummy arguments.

    Why? Because it doesn't promote the advancement of the issue. Now, you can always appeal to purely emotional interests as a sales pitch, and that can be effective.

    It just doesn't guarantee you the best result.

    RH

  79. Anonymous Avatar

    "that Europe, Japan and the rest of the world uses higher gas taxes to tamp down driving, encourage more fuel efficient cars, encourage people NOT to live 50 miles from their job… "

    First of all, that isn't why they do it. They do it to raise money for the general fund.

    If it is why they are doing it, they are not being all that successful: their taxes are more than twice as high as our and they are not driving half as much.

    So how is it that Europeans have not fired their legislators for raisong taes so high long ago, and how is it they they willingly pay such taxes but we can't even consider so much as one cent?

    Or, If their system is so much better than ours, why don't we try it?

    While we are at it we can try out their health care system, too – paid for with gas taxes.

    RH

  80. Anonymous Avatar

    "agree.. not 1/2 but significantly less and a direct result of gasoline prices."

    Now we are getting somewhere. Now lets find out what the real numbers are, and why. Certainly some of it is high gas prices. Some of it is that they have other options: paid for with gas taxes. some is that they don't need to travel as far, and some is that they can't afford to travel as far. Thee may be other reasons, soo. Maybe we will hear some of them from Groveton in Barcelona.

    So tell me, if a candidtate proposed a 10 cent gas tax to be dedicated solely for mass transit, would you support the gas tax? how about health care, or education?

    RH

  81. Anonymous Avatar

    "They support using the gas tax to pay for rail."

    This is what drives me crazy about your arguments.

    Didn't you just say that if the demand was there the rail would pay for itself?

    The reason they use the gas tax to pay for rail is that rail DOESN't pay. They spend as much from rail as they do for roadways and rail carries 15% as many passengers.

    OK, so what if they value multimodal service? It is a bad deal and a waste of money. They are paying far too much for what they get.

    By YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, if the demand was there for rail, it would pay for itself, first day in service, and only by the people who use it.

    Which is it? We should only buy things that are profitable out of the gate, and theefore we can let private enetrprise do it, or we should only subsidize things that you favor.

    Is a gas tax a bad thing that will never be politically possible, or is it OK as long as you are stealing from drivers for some other purpose (which undoubtedly will be used by drivers anyway, just not in proportion to their driving.)

    How do you get through a whole day with such senseless, random thinking?

    RH

  82. " I don't suppose you feel the same way about wind and solar, though."

    ANY legitimate private sector for-profit business -yes.

  83. " Besides that, you are artificially constraining the problem. On the one hand you are opposed to roads becasue they are a windfall for developers, but then you turn around and insist that the road be 100% paid for by the small subset of beneficiaries who happen to be the road users."

    if you're talking about private sector, for profit then you have to conform to the basic concept of profitability.

    developers are not "investing" in infrastructure – they are seeking to feed off of it much like any commercial that would see a need road as a venue for profitable land-use that would benefit from the traffic on the road.

    The government – taxpayers – should not be building roads so that the private sector can make a profit off of them.

  84. " So how is it that Europeans have not fired their legislators for raisong taes so high long ago, and how is it they they willingly pay such taxes but we can't even consider so much as one cent?"

    because they apparently are willing to pay taxes for these things… and we are not.

  85. Anonymous Avatar

    "No one is going to invest in or pay for a business that has more in expenses than costs. They close them."

    No, they go bankrupt, get sold at a fire sale. The original investors take a bath (uless they get bailed out) and the new investors get the assets at a bargain price, and the (new) business then continues on a (more)profitable basis. The new investors have more cash flow than costs, and they invest willingly.

    Bankruptcy is administered by the government with an towards (among other things) maximizing governments future cash flow. It is a subsidy to the new owners, paid for by the previous owners under orders issued by the government.

    This is exactly what happened to the Greenway. It went broke, was sold at firesale prices, and the new owners have the same assets with less debt.

    I recently bought a truck from a bankrupt company, and I got it for far less than otherwise. I felt bad about it because it was a steal.

    Still a nice truck though.

    RH

  86. here's the VMT data:

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar4.htm

    but Ray.. they don't drive as far because it's expensive.

    again.. it's the idea of a want verses a need.

    you say that folks over here have a NEED to drive 50 miles.

    I say.. if gasoline was $5 a gallon, we'd see a lot less "need" to drive that far.

    so it's not a "need" after all.. but a "want" because "needs" are not flexible or elastic.

    You "need" a place to live but you "want" a NICE place to live.

  87. re: 10 cent gas tax for mass transit…

    yes.

    if it went for more rail, I would and if not mistaken I'm with about 80% of others who would do this.

    I'm also in favor of tolls being used for mass transit and I think others are also.

    What I'm opposed to is higher gas taxes for roads – not for roads per se – but for the process that we currently use for roads.

    I'm opposed to that process.

    I'm opposed to any process where unelected folks in Richmond .. and developers on the CTB are deciding priorities.

    I'm opposed to taxes collected locally and how much comes back locally is not really know but more than that – when the money does come back – the road that it will be spend on has been decided by others… and may well be a road that promotes more development at the expense of improving the current network or fixing bad bridges.

    I think a certain amount of tax has to go to Richmond to fund the roads that connect the state and benefit all Virginians.

    but the funds that will be spent locally – need to decided locally.

    VDOT in an onerous agency that is not tuned in at all to what is really needed locally.

    they much prefer new construction over improving and optimizing the existing network.

    Given a choice between a new road and fixing a bad bridge, they pick the new road.

    Our system of collecting taxes and sending them away to be dedicated by someone else to a local purpose is wrong and I think I'm not alone on this and it is why a lot of folks oppose the current VDOT taxing process.

    When we fix that – people will be more willing to pay higher taxes.

  88. Anonymous Avatar

    "re: 10 cent gas tax for mass transit…

    yes.

    if it went for more rail, I would and if not mistaken I'm with about 80% of others who would do this."

    ——————————-

    OK now we are getting somewhere.

    I believe that people in favor of this are in favor for the wrong reasons: they think they won;t have to pay the tolls, and they think someone else will ride the train, making THEIR drive easier.

    In effect, they view it as a subsidy to driving as much or more than a tax on driving.

    If we are fortunate enough to duplicate the eurpean experience, every dollar we spend on rail will buy us 15% as much travel as each dollar we spend on roads.

    The Europeans treat their gas tax as an extension of their sales taxes or value added taxes, and they are therfore able to use the tax to raise money for many projects or programs. This makes perfect sense to me because transportation is so closely tied to commerce, as I have argued before.

    Basically, what happens in Erope is that you have one tax on everything that gets sold, and onte tax on everything that gets moved (in order to be sold, for the most part). Now what you have is very close to a flat tax with few deductions. (There are still deductions in the European income tax, notably for home purchases, interest deductions, etc.) You can count the income tax as a sales tax on labor, if you like.

    But since their system is so differnet from our system of taxes dedicated to trust funds like air tansport and transportation, or the lottery tax dedicated to education, it is hard to make comparisons.

    But, I would argue that your willingness to overlook your general opposition to gas taxes for road use in exchange for some other use, suggests there is nothing fundamentally wrong with gas taxes, except we have just allowed ourselves to get intransigent about it, and consequently have stopped thinking clearly.

    Now here is a curious thing to me. One argument against the gas tax is the regioanl one: my roads are OK, why should pay more gas tax for someone else's road? But we don't hold that arument equally when we say we are willing to pay gas tax for someone else's mass transit. (At least not until it comes to actually paying the taxes, there are plenty of antirail bumper stickers on the toll road.)

    But I would have to conclude that the regional argument is bogus, since we are willing to overlook it in some cases.

    That said, the regional argument won't go away, just because it is a useful way to argue against any new tax.

    We are going to need new money and more money: it should be fun to watch McDonnell put lipstick on that pig.

    RH

  89. Anonymous Avatar

    "you say that folks over here have a NEED to drive 50 miles."

    I never said that.

    What I have said is that studies have shown, time and time again that people DO make rational economic choices concerning the tradeoff of driveing vs home prices, under existing conditions.

    Some people argue that we could change behavior if we charged the true price of driving, and the true price for maintaining far flung homes.

    They propose to do that by raising taxes and fees. Curiously, these same people say they are not in favor of social engineering, and they believe in a free market, and they hate the idea of higher as taxes. And, they propose to charge the true cost of driving by adding to it the cost of rail transport.

    My first impulse is to call this schizophrenia.

    ——————————-

    I don't think taht worrying about what other people think they NEED is very productive. A valid role for government is to expedite and keep inexpensive the people's right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is a valid role for government because, among other things, it provides mroe revenue to government to do more (hopefully) good things that the market won't do.

    But brooding and noodling over what someone else needs is fundamentally interfering with their happiness, and I don't think we have a right to do that, subject to the equivalent requirement that they have no right to demand happiness at our expense. And I believe there are rational ways to meet, measure, and balance those conficting requirements.

    The way to that is to promote and protect the ownership and trade of more kinds of property in more kinds of markets. Markets involve speculation, so get used to it.

    RH

  90. Anonymous Avatar

    "I'm opposed to any process where unelected folks in Richmond .. and developers on the CTB are deciding priorities."

    I agree we need a better method for setting priorities. Our highest priorities ought to be those that bring the highest overall return, with the minimum loss caused to others (and preferentially, no loss through compensation).

    But what does that mean? It means we hae to evaluate the change in value of people's property (including the developers), and the best wayto do that is with some kind of market. The people making decisions in that market will be unelected persons (we hope).

    Looked at that way, the present system isn't conceptually all that wrong, it is just that not all property owners have equal access and equal protection.

    —————————

    How would you set the priorities without considering property?

    RH

  91. " The new investors have more cash flow than costs, and they invest willingly."

    not with toll roads.

    besides the Greenway was "restructured" .. see this:

    http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/2170

    if the tolls won't cover the bond payback.. things come unglued.

    this is what happened:

    " the Dulles Gway has become a sorry showcase of a project in trouble because of a shoddy traffic and revenue study. The “Financial Model for the Final Financing” filed with the state by the Gway projected annual toll revenues in its first year of operation as $22m – about 39k vehicles per weekday average. On the major press bus tour prior to the opening, Charles Williams, the TRIP representative said: “We expect 40,000 vehicles per day.” That number was based on conservative figuring, he said, referring to the traffic and revenue forecasts. The official spokesman for the Gway, Suzanne Conrad, told me before the opening in a vetted quote for a FORBES mag piece that they were expecting 24k to start with. At other times 34k by the end of the first year was quoted. So somewhere in the range 20k to 40k was expected at a basic toll $1.75, to go to $2.00.

    In the first six months of operation weekday average weekday traffic was in the range 10k to 12k , so first year revenue was headed in early 1996 for something like $8m compared to the business plan’s $22m, and the project was immediately unable to meet debt service commitments. A near-halving of the basic toll ($1.75 to $1.00) slightly more than doubled traffic to the low to mid-20ks but the project has been unable to service most of its debt in its current financial configuration. The basic toll has since been increased to $1.25 but revenue remains about half projected levels. The original forecasting failure remains controversial. "

    That is what has happened to the HOT Lanes.

    What I suspect is that the projected interest rate on the bonds jumped much higher as the credit markets essentially dried up – such that the original toll concept numbers all changed…

    and that meant that keeping things like HOV-3… the percent of free carpools allowed, and the pay back – all would require changes…. in order for Transurban to still make a go of it.

    and so Transurban basically said that if VDOT/Va could not guarantee a more favorable interest rate on the private equity that the deal was off.

    This same thing has happened across the country.

    VDOT had this same fun with the Pocahontas Parkway. Their toll projections did not pan out and they were in danger of defaulting on the bonds – and the private equity folks would have taken the road and Va's bond rating damaged…

    and this is why the US 460 thing went belly up.

    the private equity markets were not going to go for it unless Virginia guaranteed the fill the gap and even with McDonnells money – it would not be enough if the projections were off as much as they were for the Pocahontas and Dulles roads.

  92. " I agree we need a better method for setting priorities. Our highest priorities ought to be those that bring the highest overall return, with the minimum loss caused to others (and preferentially, no loss through compensation).

    But what does that mean? "

    it means that the people who pay the taxes need to hold the folks who spend it – more accountable.

    those folks may well not agree with your take on how to figure priorities ….

    " Looked at that way, the present system isn't conceptually all that wrong, it is just that not all property owners have equal access and equal protection."

    I don't think the average person sees it this way.

    I think they see something like an obvious bottleneck.. a light that is not working properly or like in your case a roundabout improperly designed and at the same time they are told that bridges will fall and gridlock will occur if VDOT does not get more money.

    Sending more money to VDOT Richmond will accomplish what?

    In NoVa, the suspicion is that they'll be lucky to get half of it back… and they'll continue to see bottlenecks and other snafus that the standard VDOT response is " yeah, we know about that.. it was reported a couple of months ago"…

    the ..unstated part – "why are you bothering us with this stuff when we already told you we knew about it"?

    got the drift?

    VDOT is the ultimate opposite of a responsive and responsible agency.

    they are big and often aloof ..and at times – appear downright arrogant…

    they are not very "customer friendly" and, in fact, I'm not even sure that they view their job as actually involving 'customers' at all.

    I think they view themselves as "engineers" and "customers" as clueless herds that will run off a cliff if there's not a sign there saying "don't drive off this cliff".

    and on this issue, VDOT is unfortunately – correct – I see their point.

  93. Anonymous Avatar

    "besides the Greenway was "restructured" .. see this:"

    Precisely what I told you. When it was restrucutred the new owners wound up with the same assets with much less debt, and therefore their existing cash flow suddenly turned profitable.

    Same thing happend with Shinkasu in Japan.

    What you are claiming is the exact opposite of the results: Greenway is now making money, which is easy to do if the government helps you shed your (previous)debt at no cost.

    RH

  94. Anonymous Avatar

    All of Virginia's citizens and the media outlets should be looking at VDOT's future transportation plan and not Deeds or McDonnell…it is in place and moving forward and the VDOT transportation plan is the one you will be driving on…governors have little or no power when it comes to roads because Federal guidelines, state laws, Department policies & procedures dictate what happens…governors just make speeches…

  95. …." Federal guidelines, state laws, Department policies & procedures dictate what happens…governors just make speeches…"

    so.. those things preordained the Transurban HOT Lanes in Va and the Maryland DOT operated ICC?

    1/2 of Transportation money comes from taxes in Va… and yes the other 1/2 does come from the Feds with strings attached.

    but Va is one of but 4 states that does not hold localities responsible for local roads and every county does have that option.

    All the cities and 2 counties in Va do take personal responsibility for many of their roads…

    and that's one way to not "wait" for the Feds or VDOT to do "something".

    VDOT, in fact, wants to divest itself of maintenance of local roads – and the prevailing attitude seems to be that, that's not such a good idea because it would be an additional financial burden on localities.

    True… but what is the alternative?

    A statewide gas tax?

    I think now is the time to cut the cord.

    Let VDOT tend to the major work of roads that connect the state and let our localities tend to their transportation needs – and to be responsible and accountable for their land-use decisions that result in transportation issues.

    I have absolutely no doubt at all that the Tysons's Corner issue would have an entirely different flavor if VDOT were out of the picture and would not be perceived as waiting in the wings to swoop in and fix the transportation impacts of a high-density development proposal.

    so I see a silver lining in the current budget woes of VDOT and that is that the development community and their BOS supporters no longer will be able to tell voters that VDOT will take care of the transportation part of development proposals.

    Everyone will now know – that for each proposal – that the transportation part of will ALSO fall on local voters and no longer will the developer-friendly folks be able to essentially dupe local voters into thinking that the transportation issues are separate from the land-use issues.

    that's a good thing in my book.

    With a little luck, we are going to end up with more transparency and more accountability on transportation (assuming it devolves to the local level).

  96. Anonymous Avatar

    Mopntgomery county has a new way to prevent road construction.

    "Montgomery Wants to Know: Will That Road Make You Sick?

    Montgomery County officials want to know if that new road might make you wheeze.

    Officials on Tuesday will propose requiring health studies before major roads are approved. They want to gauge how vehicle exhaust will affect minors, seniors, women who might have children, heart patients and others.

    "If one lives close to a major highway, it can have real impacts on respiratory function and lung capacity," said council member Duchy Trachtenberg (D-At Large), who is introducing the idea with four of her colleagues. "If a project is going have a negative impact on the population . . . we have an obligation as public servants to work with that information and make sure we protect the public's health and well-being."

    The regulation would require predicting pollution levels near proposed roads and their effects decades into the future. Major state and county roads within 1,000 feet of parks, schools, day-care centers, retirement homes or hospitals would be affected. Federal highways would get a pass. "

    Sure, lets make a law that that says we must prdict pollution level decades into the future.

    Does this make the slightest bit of sense? Is it even possible? Would we be able to separate road effects from everything else that affects us?

    As a family protection kind of gy, McDonnell shoud jump right on this.

    RH

  97. Anonymous Avatar

    " and let our localities tend to their transportation needs – and to be responsible and accountable for their land-use decisions that result in transportation issues."

    Including land use decisions that reduce the value of property purchased under a different set of rules and expectations.

    RH

  98. Anonymous Avatar

    "Last week, the Prince George's County Council, which sits as the District Council when it hears zoning matters, approved an essential part of a plan that will alter the landscape of Westphalia by allowing about a half-dozen developers to build a town half the size of Columbia. "

    Imagine that, A new place.

    RH

  99. Anonymous Avatar

    FYI

    Between the tiny Dakotan hamlets of Meadow and Glad Valley lies the McFarthest Spot: 107 miles distant from the nearest McDonald’s, as the crow flies, and 145 miles by car!

    From Environmental Economics

    RH

  100. " Including land use decisions that reduce the value of property purchased under a different set of rules and expectations."

    if you have local elected then you have local accountability for such land-use decisions.

    If you make land-use decisions that result in higher taxes to build the necessary infrastructure, the local voters get to decide the "value" of those decisions.

  101. Anonymous Avatar

    "If you make land-use decisions that result in higher taxes to build the necessary infrastructure, the local voters get to decide the "value" of those decisions."

    Back to the mob rule argument. Never mind government has a resopnsibility to protect the minorities.

    Local voters get to elect their officials, but once elected those officials are responsible for representing ALL citizens equally.

    Local voters do NOT get to decide the value of decisions those officials make: the only choice they have is to elect different officials when the time comes.

    Those officials, in turn, have a responsibility to protect all citizens equally.

    If they have any spine. If they haven't, then mob rule wins, and the effective result is that citizens have valued the decisions officials made on their behalf.

    Having "won" this dubious battle, the local citizens are LESS secure in their property than before, because we have now made it clear that elected officials can do anything they damn well please, and they had better act on behalf of the most powerful voting interests.

    Which is how we got into the problem of having special interests rule the roost.

    The only way that DOES NOT happen is when elected officials make it clear that they represent everyone equally, which means that the mob cannot steal from the minorites.

    Your contention that
    "local voters get to decide the "value" of those decisions."

    leads to ethical bankruptcy.

    RH

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