Mass Migration and Superstar Cities

The United States has seen at least two great migrations in its history: the great trek of settlers to America’s seemingly endless frontier through the end of the 19th century, and then the migration of farmers to towns and cities in the 20th century. The late 20th century has experienced a significant movement of “snowbirds” to the “sunbelt,” which continues to a degree, but that arguably pales in significance to the migration of the creative class to what regional economist Richard Florida calls “superstar cities.”

In his latest book, “Who’s Your City,” Florida describes a “mass relocation of highly skilled, highly educated and highly paid people to a relatively small number of metropolitan regions, and a corresponding exodus of traditional lower and middle classes from those same places.”

The means migration can be seen in the increasing concentration of college graduates. In 1970, human capital was distributed fairly evenly across the country, with half of all regions clustering within a narrow range of 9 percent and 13 percent of over-25 adults possessing college degrees. Over the past three decades, the percentage of Americans with college degrees has doubled, but the gains have gone overwhelmingly to regions like Washington, D.C., and San Francisco while largely bypassing regions like Detroit and Cleveland.

What’s driving the migration? Florida argues that the most talented and ambitious people need to live in the anointed regions in order to maximize their full economic potential. And in a virtuous cycle, the influx of talented and ambitious people spurs the productivity and innovation at the heart of wealth creation. The superstar cities surge ahead economically and cities like Motown figuratively spin their wheels.

While people can live anywhere they want to and plug in electronically in the Internet Age, they cannot plug into the networks that really count: the people networks. To participate in the great waves of wealth creation, people still have to live and work where the wealth is being created. Writes Florida:

When large numbers of entrepreneurs, financiers, engineers, designers, and other smart, creative people are constantly bumping into one another inside and outside of work, business ideas are formed, sharpened and executed, and — if successful — expanded. The more smart people, and the denser the connections among them, the faster it all goes. It is the multiplier effect of the clustering force at work.

(For a discussion of the “clustering force,” see “The Clustering Force Be With You.”)

What, then, are the implications for the themes discussed on this blog? One is that the wealth creators are driving up the cost of real estate, a phenomenon clearly at work in the Washington metropolitan region and to a lesser degree in the Richmond region. Florida explains: “Because the returns from colocation among the ablest is so high, and because high-end incomes are rising so fast, it makes sense for these workers to bid up the price of real estate and accept other costs that traditional middle-class families cannot afford.” The result: A metropolitan-wide gentrification in which the wealthy displace the less affluent, literally driving them out of the region.

Regions where the greatest wealth creation is taking place tend to be regions marked by the greatest disparities in income and wealth. Florida regards the “means” migration and the growing gap in incomes to as largely inevitable — and most distressing.

He also warns that escalating real estate prices can inhibit innovation. Many forms of creative activity — high-tech start-ups, art galleries, musical groups — require cheap real estate. If every dingy warehouse has been converted into loft condominiums and chi-chi boutiques, there’s nowhere for from-the-ground-up innovation to take place. Extreme real estate prices also hinder the ability of regions to attract new talent.

Says Florida: “When creative, productive regions become the province of affluent people who have already made their money (usually elsewhere), the cycle of local wealth building falls apart.”

Economy 4.0: Once again we see that economic development merges into community development. The challenge for most Virginia communities is to figure out how to jump onto that wealth-creation bandwagon. How do we spark the chain-reaction in which regions attract talent, which generates wealth, which attracts more talent? (It can be done. Florida points to the example of Nashville as a city that vaulted from a second-tier music city focused on the country-and-western genre into the third largest cluster of musicians in the country, after New York and Los Angeles, and has eclipsed those two cities as “the place for music writing, recording and publishing.”)

The Washington region has already catalyzed its human capital/wealth creation chain reaction, and it’s far advanced into the unaffordable housing phase. Washington’s task is to preserve and create livable and sustainable communities in the face of the Great Means Migration.

I’ll have more to say about these themes in later posts.


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Comments

  1. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Great summary Jim.

    One point:

    There is absolutly no reason why the regions that are most attractive to the creative class should have higer prices for Housing / Services / Recreation / Amenity.

    What is driving the high cost is dysfunctional human settlement patterns proped up by actions of Agencies (programs, projects, policies and controls) and reinforced by an uninformed market.

    There is no economic, social or physical reason why everyone could not live at a Georgetown or The Fan or the R / B Corridor or Reston or Burke Centre or Warrenton level of amentiy (or a Great Falls level of amentiy if they could afford the added cost of dispersal)…

    if the costs were fairly allocated.

    EMR

  2. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Ed, you are right. The weakness in Florida’s argument is that he assumes that increases in the demand for housing will drive up prices. Elementary economics says that is true only if the supply of housing in the right locations fail to keep pace. (Increasing the supply of housing on the outer perimeter of the region, causing less affluent employees to commute 40 to 50 miles one way does not count as increasing the supply of housing in the right locations.)

    That observation does beg the question, though, of why regions cannot seem to increase the supply of housing in the places where it is needed to create balance. The construction of such housing is largely forbidden by zoning codes, comprehensive plans and boards of supervisors unwilling to permit re-development at higher densities.

    And why do supervisors resist higher densities? Because re-development creates a host of issues that our fellow bloggers have enumerated. In the absence of transportation upgrades, more people means more congestion. More people also puts pressure on neighborhood school systems and public services. The citizens who are already in place don’t want to bear the unpleasant consequences or pay the costs — they want the newcomers to pay.

    Ultimately, it all boils down to who pays for the location-variable costs. Everybody wants someone else to pay. That’s politics.

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Sure. Nashville, Las Vegas, Taos, Provincetown, Salt Lake City, New Orleans.

    Lots of places suddenly develop in unlikely places.

    RH

  4. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “If every dingy warehouse has been converted into loft condominiums and chi-chi boutiques, there’s nowhere for from-the-ground-up innovation to take place. Extreme real estate prices also hinder the ability of regions to attract new talent.”.

    This proves that neither Google nor Silicon Valley exists. Unfortunately for this argument – they both do exist.

    “That observation does beg the question, though, of why regions cannot seem to increase the supply of housing in the places where it is needed to create balance. The construction of such housing is largely forbidden by zoning codes, comprehensive plans and boards of supervisors unwilling to permit re-development at higher densities.”.

    Fairfax County population density – 2,636 / sq mi.

    Henrico County population density – 1,024 / sq mi

    Why does Henrico County have such an obviously inferior zoning plan? A plan that observably retards high density development? That’s a very good question. Because I’ve been reading R’Biz and Richmond is a booming hub of the creative class.

    “Ultimately, it all boils down to who pays for the location-variable costs. Everybody wants someone else to pay. That’s politics.”.

    That’s an interesting comment. Let’s look at who is paying for location variable costs by looking at who is paying taxes.

    http://www.porterinc.com/4650-oakleys/pdf/CityCountyComparison2004.ppt#313,1,Thirteen City/County Comparison

    “Henrico County citizens pay the lowest taxes and fees of any of the localities surveyed.”. Page 22/23

    And these aren’t just Henrico vs. NoVA comparisons. There are Henrico vs. Tidewater comparisons.

    Also on page 22 –

    Henrico – taxes and fees: $176, per capita income, $26,410

    Portsmouth – taxes and fees: $267, per capita income, $16,507

    And where are the highest taxes and fees paid?

    Fairfax County: $381, per capita income, $36,888

    So, Fairfax County has a per capita income that is 39.7% higher than Henrico County (not adjusted for regional costs of living) but pays 116% more in the analyzed taxes.

    And who published this analysis? The Henrico County Board of Supervisors. They even have their picture on the last page.

    “Everybody wants someone else to pay.”.

    Sure semms that way in Henrico County.

  5. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, (sigh) it is futile to compare Henrico and Fairfax in the way that you do. The dynamics in the Richmond and Washington metro areas are very different.

    Henrico County isn’t fully developed. At least one-third of the county is undeveloped, and another 1/6 to 1/3 is underdeveloped. Comparing average population density is meaningless.

    Henrico’s zoning plan is changing. County planners recognize that the county needs to urbanize, as in, to evolve from “sub”urban densities to urban densities in places.

    But that re-development process is only beginning. Henrico does not face anywhere near the development pressure that Fairfax does. As the region continues to grow, we *will* see more development pressure in Henrico, but we’re probably 25 to 30 years behind Fairfax’s curve. When the time comes and the county is fully developed and density needs to increase, we’ll see whether the Henrico BoS steps up to the plate and approves an evolution to a more urbanized jurisdiction. If I’m still around, I’ll be supporting the transition. (Indeed, in articles I’ve written for local media, I already have supported the transition).

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Run the numbers for Henrico and Loudoun. They are more on the same page methinks. It shall be interesting to see where both of these counties decide to go and if they will actually learn anything from Farifax

    P.S. my argument still stands from a realistic what is possible politically dealing with NIMBYs and all sorts of other special interest groups is Fairfax really all that bad? :-p

    NMM

  7. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim (sigh) you can’t seem to find any measures of success. Population density can’t be used. Taxes paid vs. services provided can’t be calculated.

    That which cannot be measured cannot be managed.

    Maybe you should look at the following two population maps – one for Henrico County, one for Fairfax County – both use year 2000 data. I’ll throw in Loudoun County too – just for grins.

    Henrico County:

    http://www.dof.virginia.gov/R2/hen-info-pop-map.shtml

    Fairfax County:

    http://www.dof.virginia.gov/R3/fax-info-pop-map.shtml

    Loudoun County:

    http://www.dof.virginia.gov/R3/lud-info-pop-map.shtml

    Henrico County looks a lot more like Fairfax County than it looks like Loudoun County. In fact, it looks a lot like Fairfax County. Your comment that, “At least one-third of the county is undeveloped” does not seem to be supported by the facts (and that’s with year 2000 data, it must be worse now). It would be true to say that Loudoun County is one third undeveloped (from the 2000 data).

    Jim – this whole debate needs to be much more fact based. I am constantly reading statements that are just not true. The General Assembly may be happy operating in a fact vacuum but we should not be happy operating that way.

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I sorta wonder what the point in the comparisons are…

    of course Henrico’s axe to grind was to proclaim it’s low tax credentials.

    but as far as a strategic economic development philosophy/intent.. here’s what I’m pretty sure did not happen…

    Way back when..80 years ago or so the city fathers of NoVa did not sit down at a big round table and say – “we’ve got to put together a world class economic development plan that will make this region an economic powerhouse that will be the envy of Virginia”.

    Nope… instead.. over a period of time a series of GS up-t-scratches said – “we need to have our agency’s headquarters in Washington where the other agency headquarters are”..

    so just like Mr. Florida’s plausible theory of guitar makers and music writers flocking to Nashville to hobnob with the performers.. Washington became a “cluster”.. no of creativity but government…

    Government bureaucrats made NoVa what it is – not economic geniuses.

    so Groveton.. lift thy nose a bit higher so it’s not so easy for you to look down it when focusing on places like Henrico..

    the only thing creative about NoVa are the developers…

    🙂

    virtually everyone else gets their jollies at Costco…

  9. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, You’re right, it would help at least if we could agree on the facts. We’re back to your idea of building and maintaining a database for state and local public policy analysis. A worthy goal.

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Comparing average population density is meaningless.

    Not if you are also comparing other county averages.

    ——————————–

    At least one-third of the county is undeveloped, and another 1/6 to 1/3 is underdeveloped.

    OK, so what?

    Does that mean that Average Henrico taxes are low because they are heavily subsidized by (even lightly) taxing (a lot of ) land that gets no services?

    Does it mean that the developed areas are developed that much better and more efficiently than than Fairfax, such that they can cut their taxes THAT much? Somehow I doubt it.

    Does it mean tha they get by with a lot less services? That I could believe, because density means you need more services.

    Even so, which would you rather have, $36,500 , after taxes, or $16,250, after taxes?

    Loudoun chose the first answer, Fauquier chose the second. or, using Grovetons’s approach, the Fauequier elite made that choice: they could afford to because they have plenty of money.

    RH

  11. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    All this discussion of “comparisons” of unlike place is why we developed Regional Metrics.

    Until one measures the organic components of human settlement pattern there is no validity in comparisons of unlike entities — two “counties” (the borders established before the Revolutionary War) that have nothing in common except being in the same state.

    The Alpha Clusters and Alpha Neighorhoods (and even the Beta Clusters and Beta Neighborhoods) and the other organic components can be compared.

    They can also be used to create valid comparisons between New Urban Regions (or their component parts) in the US of A and in the EU.

    Comparing Counties, or nation-states is sillyness squared.

    This is why I find the work of Lucy and Phillips so useful. They break data down to the Census Block. This is a rough equlivalent of an Alpha Neighborhood.

    It needs to down to the Alpha Cluster scale but that is only possible in places like Burke Centre where the design included articulation to that scale.

    Earlier Jim Bacon asks:

    “why regions cannot seem to increase the supply of housing in the places where it is needed to create (B)alance?”

    He goes on to list a lot of bad assumptions based on no data that is used to create phony excuses and feed NYMBYism.

    When we get the Conceptual Framework (the organic components and a system of metrics in which we all agree) we can gather meaningful data and then, with a Vocabulary to discuss and arrive at a concensus, we can wipe out the reasons why regions cannot evolve functional human settlement patterns — in this context quality Housing / Services / Recreation / Amenity at a fair price so we can have happy Creative citizens.

    EMR

  12. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “They break data down to the Census Block. This is a rough equlivalent of an Alpha Neighborhood.”

    jeeesushkeerist….you mean all this fundamental change stuff boils down to some census bean counters drawing boundary scribbles on maps?

    🙂

  13. Stephen Avatar
    Stephen

    That is an interesting summary. Most of what Mr. Florida said seems to be true buth nationally and internationally. Living in Northern Virginia this benefits me and the region. Besides the economic benefits the author mentioned it also adds a vibrance and energy to the region.

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    remember the “mill towns”?

    remember that such towns would attract other allied industries…they became “clusters”

    and it made sense from a physical point of view.

    A maker of appliances that needed steel would benefit by being near where still was produced.

    and it’s true that people still go to Nashville or Silicon Valley for their specialty…

    but I think Florida is looking at vestiges of a more physical world and is overlooking a “flat” world.

    There are tons of counter examples of “scatter” of enterprises.

    For instance, personal navigation devices – a world-changing technology is centered not in silicon valley or Houston or Austin Texas but scattered across the world.

    Garmin is located in Olathe, Kansas of all places.

    GPS is a confluences of multiple technologies like so many other devices these days.

    A main competitor – Tom Tom – is European-based in Amsterdam.

    Magellan is in Santa Clara, Calif.

    The digital mapping companies that are an integral part of these products… Tele-Atlas is in Belgium and Navteq is in Chicago.

    Nokia – the company that bought Navteq is headquartered in Scandinavia.

    And all of these companies have regional offices scattered around the world.

    It used to be – that when you looked up a city – there would be an articulation of its “industries”.

    so.. there is no denying that there are tons of allied companies in Silicon Valley but there is also no denying that not only are companies scattered across the globe but they regularly get sliced and diced, bought and sold, merged and split apart..

    But if you were someone who was fascinated by GPS technology where is the center of the GPS world?

    it’s probably true that you’ll find sizable dollops of GPS in the mega-regions…

    but what are the mega-regions at their essence?

    they are areas with wide and deep with generic infrastructure… the “fuel” for enterprise .. agreed

    but with information available at the fingertips wherever communications are present means that knowledge, innovation and creativity occur anywhere.

    so.. I’m skeptical

    Open Source software – the creme-de-le-creme of creativity and innovation in some respects is a world-wide collaborative effort and
    I doubt (but would stand corrected) that there is any kind of a strong correlation to “clustering”.

    In order for me to buy into Florida’s thesis – I’d have to see more rigor and more specificity.

  15. not a florida fan Avatar
    not a florida fan

    So Florida is still getting people to put down cash for another twist on the same story? Capitalism is beautiful but here’s the rub for me, isn’t Census Block data still 2000 data? The only interim figures are surveys/estimates and won’t give you block level data.

    I don’t necessarily disagree with Florida’s fundamental thesis, but think about all that’s happened in the economy since 2000? On housing costs alone I bet the next census tells a different story.

  16. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    speaking of census…

    “ZCTAs are distinct from other Census Bureau statistical areas, such
    as census tracts, because they are not stable over time and are
    computer-delineated based on the location of addresses at the
    time of Census 2000 rather than manually delineated by local
    program participants or Census Bureau staff before the census.”

    “ZCTAs frequently cross county and place boundaries and may
    occasionally cross from one state into another”

    so at least the government recognizes population and economic attributes as potentially distinct from political boundaries.

    but ..then… they also recognize that these areas are not static either… they can grow, shrink and change shape…

    hmmmm.. I wonder what that means with respect to the idea of a “clear edge” – that contracts and expands ???

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “but ..then… they also recognize that these areas are not static either… they can grow, shrink and change shape…

    hmmmm.. I wonder what that means with respect to the idea of a “clear edge” – that contracts and expands ???”

    Good point. We should be looking for policies that adapt change gracefully and equitably rather than try to produce stasis.

    RH

  18. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Dr. Souwell would be upset –

    “Way back when..80 years ago or so the city fathers of NoVa did not sit down at a big round table and say – “we’ve got to put together a world class economic development plan that will make this region an economic powerhouse that will be the envy of Virginia”.

    Actually, they did. The county of Alexandria (which now is Arlington County and the city of Alexandria) was ceded to the US government as part of the creation of Washington DC (by the Virginia state legislature). However, it was receded to the state of Virginia through a petition of those who lived there (not based on the state legislature because it was not part of teh state). So, the money that Virginia gets from federal employment in Arlington and Alexandria as well as all local taxes collected there were the result of the citizens living there at the time.

    “the only thing creative about NoVa are the developers…

    🙂

    virtually everyone else gets their jollies at Costco…”.

    Now who is looking down their nose at whom?

    Nextel
    MCI
    WebMethods
    Savvis
    RipTech
    UUNet
    Jim Morrison
    Steely Dan
    David Baldacci

    You see Larry – I think you better stick to Robert Reich and Supercapitalism. Dr. Souwell’s approach of using facts and empirical evidence just doesn’t seem to suit the “logic” of your arguments.

    As for Henrico County – it’s on a list of places with considerable potential in my mind. Also on the list – Tidewater, Charlottesville, Roanoke, NoVA. My issue with arguments like the ones often espoused by Jim Bacon is that they center on how to limit NoVA and avoid addressing how to expand the contribution from Charlottesville, Henrico, Roanoke, etc.

    In all candor, I consider most of SW VA an economic basket case that will require money from the rest of the state for the forseeable future. Fredricksburg and Spotsylvania have some potential but the NIMBY attitude of the newly arrived and the self proclaimed “first families” hold that area back. Ditto for western Loudoun, Clarke and Warren Counties.

    Jim B. – You have my database proposal. I have enough money to get started but not enough time to build it myself. I have agreed to extend my intended retirement date (from my company) from 2009 to 2011. So, I will have more money and less time. If anyone has a rough proposal of how to build this database – send it to me at Groveton@GMail.Com. My only requirements are:

    a) I can afford it or we can raise enough money
    b) The database be absolutely and completely non-partisan. We’ll load all data, not just the data that supports particular positions.

    Technically, I know how we can build this database. As a Northern Virginia resident who has never set foot in a Costco (or a Wal Mart) I have had the time to read the technology manuals. It is also part of my non-creative job which relies entirely on the federal government (actually, I have a very creative job which relies on the federal government about 2%).

    Larry – you post has earned the first Groveton Fact Vacuum Award for a combination of “whine level” and “observable error”.

    One final question – what is located at this address?

    3102 Plank Road #600
    Fredericksburg, Virginia
    22407

  19. The Logician Avatar
    The Logician

    “As for Henrico County – it’s on a list of places with considerable potential in my mind. Also on the list – Tidewater, Charlottesville, Roanoke, NoVA.”

    If we’re talking about potential for economic and creative progress, I’ve got to rank Tidewater last on your list.

    I’ve lived in all of those locations except NoVA, and have enough in the way of family and friends there I feel I know it well anyways.

    For a region to be favorable to this kind of creative/economic growth, I believe it needs at least one, but preferably some combination, of the following three things:

    1)Industry
    2)Academia
    3)Tradition (<-- the largest benefactor of Nashville's musical Renaissance) NoVA/DC is a region that has primarily relied on the industries of government/defense and communication to attract the brightest minds. Government employees and associated contractors in DC are much more likely to be higher on the GS or executive scales than they may be at other satellite Federal agency locations. It’s no coincidence that half of the graduating seniors from UVA, Tech, W&M (and I imagine MD schools as well) wind up relocating to the DC NUR. The better jobs attract the better minds. Throw in some damn fine universities and it’s no wonder it’s become a brain mecca. Places like Charlottesville and the Roanoke/Blacksburg corridor benefit mightily from the existence of two of America’s finest public colleges. Industry is attracted to towns with top-notch colleges (a) for research, and (b) to have the pick of the best graduates, which in turn generates the wealth and the creativity. Tidewater has none of this. There are some good colleges, but they don’t have that Ivory Tower appeal to industry that UVA, Tech, and even VCU offer. The primary industries in HR are much more blue collar than they are in some of those other regions. While Richmond is a banking center and a state capital, HR relies on local military installations, shipping and transportation, and tourism, where advanced degrees are rarely required. (As an aside – Williamsburg I hesitate to lump in with HR. They may share an area code, and there is a sizable HR commuter population residing there, but there’s still a noticeable culture shift as you pass Yorktown NWS and Ft Eustis on I-64.) Virginia is a state with great colleges, policies attractive to business, and a rich heritage, so it’s no wonder that you see a number of its regions prospering. I reserve my optimism for Tidewater, though.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m gonna stick to my guns..

    You take the government jobs out of NoVa – and that includes the companies that depend on selling goods and services to the Feds or companies that support the Feds..

    and what you’ll get would look like many urban areas without a substantial Federal presence – regardless of the Dillon Rule and regardless of a “royal” governance model.

    compare .. top 10 companies in NoVa with top 10 companies in another similarily sized metro area…

    Groveton – do you seriously believe that the Pentagon is where it is because NoVa forefathers made a stronger case than the Roanoke or Columbus, Ohio forefathers?

    come on man.. admit it… geographical happenstance – happens!

    It’s only a bad thing if you think you actually were responsible for it.

    Face it. NoVa is NoVa because of a very fortunate geographic circumstance.

    re: costco
    number of Va Costco’s: 14
    Number of NoVa Costco’s: 7

    Arlington (Pentagon City),Chantilly
    ,Fairfax,Leesburg,Manassas,
    Newington-Springfield, Sterling

    re: database

    Here’s a contribution:

    Virginia’s Direct Aid to Localities for Public Education

    Page 11 – Sharing of Costs Between State & Local Composite Index of Local Ability-to-Pay

    http://www.vml.org/CONF/07CJamesCityCo/07ConfDocs/5%20VML%20-%20VA‘s%20Direct%20Aid.pp

    re: non-partisan data – what a concept!

    given your time/money issues – might want to start out with defining your site schema/organization and stand-up a framework with light population… as a prototype…

    would suggestion for consideration..also.. better to do start it as a portal with links.. to the source data rather than making copies and storing locally… will get you into a world of hurt with trying to keep up with outdated data… although.. dead-links is a downside of linking.

    later… synthesizing data from multiple sources.. to produce “new” info not apparent by reading the sources stuff…

    optimal.. allow the user to synthesize – but that would require an actual database… lots of work to keep it current and pruning dead/old data… save that for when you have LOTs of free time..

  21. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Logician, Good comments about Hampton Roads. I spent much of my youth growing up there (my Dad was in the Navy), as did my brother and sister. We’re all college educated, and we all moved away. It saddens me to see the region unable to progress, despite the worthy efforts of a number of creative and hard-working people.

    Here’s my pet theory, which I would hold up for scrutiny and comment. The economic/ community development apparatus of the region has been captured to a significant degree by traditional industries: tourism, ports and shipbuilding, especially the former two. Where does community investment on roads and infrastructure go? To benefit tourism and the ports. What is the community investing to grow industries of the future, like the emerging modeling & simulation cluster? Not very much. Billions for tourism/ports, pennies for modeling & simulation.

    Just a thought to get the dialog going….

  22. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I actually think places like HR/TW are easier to figure out than other places inland…because it’s pretty clear that at it’s core it is
    basically a seaport with a seafaring heritage…

    I might be wrong..but I’d wager that
    HR/TW has a lot more in common with other seaports than RoVa or NoVa.

    By the way.. I was born there.. to a Marine… and his Marine Wife near the end of “the” war.

    He was the son of German immigrants who ran a dairy in New York and she the daughter of a Virginia couple with a very English family name but poor farmers.

  23. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Larry:

    Your arguments are more lost than usual. Go to this website and click on the “Founding of Washington, DC” video. Watch the 49 minute video. Then tell me again about geographical happenstance.

    http://www.americanpresidents.org/presidents/gwashington.asp

  24. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    The re-education of Larry Gross (Pt 2):

    Larry:

    Beyond being deluded as to Virginia / US / Washington DC history, you also seem stuck on some sort of absurd argument regarding Costco. You provide the following fact:

    re: costco
    number of Va Costco’s: 14
    Number of NoVa Costco’s: 7

    Without commenting on the pointlessness of this I’ll provide some additional education about Costco, WalMart, etc.

    I’ll start by assuming that you think Costco is bad since you go to lengths to show how many Costcos there are in NoVA and you hate everything NoVA (without ever considering how Fredricksburg might improve itself).

    Given the lack of obvious logic in your “I hate Costco” stance, I’ll have to make some assumptions. I can only assume that Costco represents an activity (big box shopping) that plagues NoVA and explains the lack of creativity in NoVA (i.e. too much time spent shopping at Costco and not enough time spent “creating”?).

    This would be a bad argument if Costco were the only big box retailer operating in Virginia. However, since there are other, well-known big box retailers, the argument goes from bad to idiotic.

    Let’s look at the biggest of the big box reatilers – WalMart.

    http://www.roadnotes.com/walmart/va.htm

    There are 80 Wal Mart stores in Virginia. 10 are in NoVA. 70 are in RoVA. Fredricksburg has 3 all by itself. So, NoVA has about 24% of the state’s population but only 20% of the combined total of WalMarts and Costcos.

    I am sure you will follow absurdity with absurdity by trying to explain how Costco is bad but WalMart is good. Supercapitalism has been widely quoted on this blog. Let’s see what Robert Reich has to say.

    “CEOs do occasionally upgrade the skills of their employees in order to make them more productive and worth every penny of good wages and benefits. Big box retailer Costco carefully trains its personnel to know merchandise and help customers, and pays them well. In 2005 they averaged $17 an hour, more than 40 percent higher than employees at Wal-Mart’s Sam’s Club receive. Costco also offers a generous health plan. Some observers assume that if Costco can do it, Wal-Mart can, too.”.

    Gee Larry – it seems that not only does NoVA actually have fewer big box retailers than RoVA (in proportion to population) it also has better big box retailers (in terms of employee pay and benefits).

    Now – what was your point again?

  25. Douglas Avatar
    Douglas

    I would invite all who are concerned with the patterns of growth in our communities to follow the efforts of the Public and Private sector to work Together to foster sustainable communities in Fauquier County. The new Board of Supervisors is reaching out to all segments of the Urban Planning and Development communities in an effort to foster community growth with respect for the heritage and natural environment with which we have been so generously endowed.
    Even VDOT appears to be evolving in directions which are less hostile to philosophies that are people and family, not auto, centered.
    All significant positive societal actions require the willing adoption of the principle of team effort and compromise by disparate individuals with the goal of progress for each of society’s members.

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    douglas:

    You see things in Fauquier far differently than I do.

    Instead of reaching out to all segments of the Urban Planning and Development communities, the board ought to try reaching out to their own citizens.

    Historically, “compromise” has not been in their vocabulary any where near as much as “no”.

    “with respect for the heritage and natural environment with which we have been so generously endowed.”

    This is the kind of thing that illustrates a a complete msunderstanding of ownership. When we say we have been endowed with this natural environment, it is a claim of ownership – that it is endowed is a claim that it is handed down, by right.

    In fact, that natural environment sits on land that is owned by citizens.

    What happens next is that those that claim ownership of the environment, then claim that those who own the land under it should expect to be stewards of the environment.

    And that is fine.

    But, if those that claim ownership of the environment expect to have stewards, then they should expect to pay them as stewards.

    Otherwise, they have not got stewards, but slaves.

    I’m not too impressed, actually, if they have respect for the heritage and natural environment, if they haven’t respect for me and my heritage.

    As far as I can see, their idea of team effort means “our way or the highway”. In fact, I was invited to leave the county, by a former supervisor – in the public paper.

    Those are a lot of nice words. i wish it were all true. But from my end of the bargain, it hasn’t meant a thing, when the rubber meets the road.

    RH

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