Mary Peters on Virginia Transportation Policy

Mary E. Peters, the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, has published a column in the Times-Dispatch today that displays a surprising familiarity with Virginia’s transportation-policy gridlock. Perhaps, as a federal employee, she is a resident of Virginia, which means she is affected by the actions (or non-actions) of the General Assembly. Or, perhaps her knowledge derives from the fact that Virginia is a national leader in tolling and congestion pricing — which happen to be the very remedies for the nation’s transportation woes that she advocates.

Whatever the case, Peters makes far more sense than most national politicians who pontificate about transportation policy. She’s got the big themes right. Now she needs to work on the details.

At the heart of her message, Virginia needs to change the way it funds transportation projects. She writes: “It makes little sense — and it’s certainly not sustainable — to increase our reliance on gasoline taxes at a time when we all recognize the need to decrease fuel consumption and increase the use of alternative fuel sources. … gasoline, car, property, and sales taxes have little or nothing to do with the use of highways and are ineffective at reducing highway congestion.”

Translation into Bacon-ese: Transportation funding needs to address the demand side, as well as the supply side, of the equation. There needs to be a direct connection between how much, and when, people drive and how much they pay. If drivers pay their share of the cost of building and maintaining roads and highways, they won’t “demand” as much transportation capacity as if they pay by other means.

Peters is a huge fan of variable pricing, or congestion pricing, as am I — the difference being that I recognize there is a gap between abstract economic theory and how congestion pricing is applied in the real world.

Private toll operators, Peters says rightfully, bring private capital to the able, allowing projects to get financed that Virginia otherwise could not afford. Congestion pricing, she adds, manages transportation corridors on the basis of supply and demand, allocating scarce capacity in a manner very much like long-distance phone service.

But the analogy with long-distance phone service is far from exact. There is abundant competition in phone service, with multiple players utilizing multiple technologies. Private toll operators strive to squelch competition in order to lock in their captive markets, as Virginians discovered when we got a peek at the contract between the Commonwealth of Virginia and Capital Beltway Express for operation of the Interstate 495 HOT lanes. (See “The Capital Beltway HOT Lane Deal.”) That was a deal, incidentally, that Peters’ office was intimately acquainted with, as the feds provided much of the low-interest financing to make it happen.

The Beltway HOT lane contract protects the private operator’s revenue stream by imposing significant financial penalties on the state of Virginia for making transportation improvements that would undercut toll revenues. I would humbly suggest that the solution to traffic congestion is more competition, not less. On the other hand, it is questionable whether Transurban and Fluor, the joint venture partners, would have made the investment and taken on the financial risk without some assurances, so there are no easy answers.

Still, Peters articulates the critical issues clearly when writes:

Virginia’s leaders have a clear choice. They can ask drivers to pay more at the pump, more at the store, and more at the DMV — regardless of where they live or when they drive. Or, they can put in place direct user fees that will be targeted to areas where congestion is at its worst, and will actually cut traffic, speed commutes and improve the timeliness and quality of transit bus service. …

Embracing direct pricing for road use would also have the added benefit of encouraging better decisions about land use, stimulate reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions and encourage more of the commonwealth’s commuters to try transit. In short, embracing tolling as a solution to Virginia’s transportation funding challenges would cut traffic, generate needed revenue, improve transit, and significantly benefit the environment.

Now, if we could just get Madame Secretary to start talking about “balanced communities,” we’d really be making some progress!


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Comments

  1. Rodger Provo Avatar
    Rodger Provo

    Jim –

    Good post.

    Virginia has a congestion management problem on our
    highways.

    It also has a settlement pattern
    problem, given our growth (EMR is so right about this
    issue).

    We can’t fund our future needs, as
    we have done in the past by asking
    our residents to pay more taxes,
    while not seeking funds from out of
    state users of our system.

    Nor can we continue to grow as we
    have since the 1960’s which has
    created the mess we have.

    Politicians from both parties who
    continue to use these issues for
    political gain are harming our
    state’s future.

  2. Not Ed Risse Avatar
    Not Ed Risse

    Jim:

    If everyone pays their own way through congestion tolling, why do you care about balance?

    Won’t millions of individuals making their own choices decide for themselves what a balanced living arrangement is?

    For some it will be cheaper housing and a more expensive tolled commute. For others it will be living in an apartment over the store they work in.

    Why should I care?

    Or are you suggesting that Mary Peters needs to get the government to loosen up its overly restrictive anti-housing anti-mixed use zoning rules so more people can choose to live near their jobs?

    In that case I agree with you.

    Freedom and user pays will allow us over time to evolve “functional” settlement patters.

  3. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think Not Ed Risse asks a provocative question.

    but then I’d go one step further – and ask … if selective congestion pricing … itself – depending on where it is employed and where it is not employed – affecting the scope, scale, size and geographic location of settlement patterns?

    Which – will almost surely stir up the folks who don’t care for the idea of tolls in the first place and/or who are suspicious of “do-gooder” policies.

    also.. be sure that we understand the difference between tolls, express tolls and congestion priced tolls because their impacts on traffic can be quite different.

    If the core purpose of the toll is to address congestion – no matter where it occurs or why – but it’s focus is to reduce congestion – that may well have a very different impact than say..express tolls – which are static and do not vary according to congestion.

    One thing is for sure – if the GA does not act to raise taxes – what is left on the table is – tolls and not much else.

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Jim Bacon:

    Are you sure that Ms. Peters wrote that item?

    It sounds like a consultant to Transurban Flor wrote it and passed it on.

  5. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Jim Bacon:

    Good post and I like the last sentence!

    Larry makes several good points:

    Focusing on congestion is key but, as he says some will see a hidden agenda in variable tolls.

    That is why citizen education is so important.

    There is another reason that your last sentence is important.

    Variable congestion pricing is great but in the long run it does not solve the problem especially if there is not a draconian wealth transfer to narrow the Wealth Gap.

    Raising the price is fine but a lot of people who own cars cannot afford to drive now. What is worse a lot of folks cannot afford cars.

    The idea that “everyone” has a car or has access to a car to provide Mobility and Access is beyond foolish.

    Shared-vehicle system — from hooking a ride with the neighbor, to jitneys, to publicos, to mini-busses, to … require concentration of origins and destinations — aka, functional settlement patterns.

    Somewhere I read:

    “There are no transport facility solutions that will solve traffic congestion on the Regional basis, NONE. It is not a matter of money or source of money.”

    “It is a matter of physics not policy, politics or even intra Regional selfishness.”

    “There are settlement pattern strategies that result in a Balance between existing and affordable improvements in transport system capacity and travel demand.”

    Until citizens understand the need for transport system / settlement pattern Balance there will be no concensus to support any money scheme.

    EMR

  6. Not Ed Risse Avatar
    Not Ed Risse

    So EM Risse wants “a draconian wealth transfer” to solve humanity’s problems.

    The old Soviet Union is gone.

    Who is left to implement Risse’s Marxist ideas?

  7. “There needs to be a direct connection between how much, and when, people drive and how much they pay.”

    You mean like if you drive twice as much you pay twice as much in tax? Sort of, kind of EXACTLY what the current system does? And if you want to keep the money local, the tax could just as easily be collected on a county or regional basis. It would be a stupid thing to do, but that goal is easily accomplished without an Australian Big Brother/Rube Goldberg tax infrastructure.

    “Private toll operators, Peters says rightfully, bring private capital to the table,”

    Not really. They’re borrowing in advance on tolls the public pays. These private companies are putting forward very little capital of their own — it’s almost entirely the public’s money at stake.

    “Or, perhaps her knowledge derives from the fact that Virginia is a national leader in tolling and congestion pricing”

    Or perhaps her knowledge derives from her being a former employee of HDR, a toll road company. And Virginia is hardly a leader. California did HOT ten years ago. It was a total disaster, just like the Virginia deal is poised to become.

    “If the core purpose of the toll is to address congestion”

    Let’s be honest. “Demand side” is code for higher taxes and more congestion, not less. The goal is to make driving an expensive and miserable experience so that people drive less. The more I dig behind the lofty words I find the same anti-growth and anti-prosperity mentality lurking.

    EMR: “The idea that “everyone” has a car or has access to a car to provide Mobility and Access is beyond foolish.”

    You may wish to take up your complaint with the Department of Motor Vehicles. Somehow they seem to think there are 7,246,709 registered vehicles in the Commonwealth. The population is 7.5 million, many of whom are too young to drive. The percentage of residents over age 16 is 86%. It’s closer to 95% if you drop out the too-old-to-drive demographic.

    It’s only foolish if you don’t bother looking at the data.

  8. Oops, I meant:
    The percentage of residents over age 16 with a driver’s license is 86%.

  9. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    In our earlier post we said:

    “Variable congestion pricing is great but in the long run it does not solve the problem especially if there is not a draconian wealth transfer to narrow the Wealth Gap.”

    We thought readers would understand that variable congestion pricing would not solve the Mobility and Access problem unless there was a draconian transfer of wealth and that almost no one – including us – wants or believes that a draconian wealth transfer is worthy of consideration, especially since there are far better alternatives – like a fair allocation of location-variable costs.

    At 2:09 PM, Not Ed Risse said…

    “So EM Risse wants “a draconian wealth transfer” to solve humanity’s problems.

    “The old Soviet Union is gone.

    Perhaps ‘Not Ed Risse’ learned his / her English in the Soviet Union.

    Also, Bob – sorry you are confused.

    We are not talking about the total number of registered vehicles, we are talking about the number of Households that do not have a vehicle.

    Many more do not have a vehicle for everyone that has to get to places that are only accessible by Autonomobile.

    There are also Households that cannot afford to drive the car they have or use the licence they have.

    There are two driver Households with 3, 4 or 5 register vehicles.

    “The percentage of residents over age 16 (with a drivers licence) is 86%.”

    Having a licence and having a vehicle available when you need to get somewhere are two different things.

    “It’s closer to 95% if you drop out the too-old-to-drive demographic.”

    Actually the too-old-to-drive demographic too often have a licence and they are driving.

    In one group of census tracks of about 75,000 citizens where a handicapped friend lives, she has done the numbers very carefully and says 50 some percent of the population is immobile unless someone else drives them.

    If you look behind the raw data you will find there are lots of reasons why the Autonomobile is not the solution.

    EMR

  10. “If you look behind the raw data you will find there are lots of reasons why the Autonomobile is not the solution.”

    Certainly. But the numbers point toward the most effective answer for the greatest number of people. Trying to social engineer a utopia for 7.5 million based on the needs of 32,500 is a backwards way of doing things.

    “We are not talking about the total number of registered vehicles, we are talking about the number of Households that do not have a vehicle.”

    I understand the concept. Do you have actual statewide data? The northeast is a car-hating region and Virginia has an excessively punitive car tax. In California, there are plenty of households with more cars than people. Without seeing data, I doubt that the number of excess-car households appreciably exceed the number of one-car households in Virginia.

    For everyone who, say, can’t drive because they’re too old there are people with handicaps that make walking any considerable distance a burden. They can still drive, but a “walkable community” for them would be an absolute nightmare. Like a pregnant woman with two kids trying to bring home groceries in the rain — assuming the Государственный комитет по планированию (Gosplan) allows children.

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    A simple math problem…….

    Mary E. Peters, the U.S. Secretary of Transportation

    +

    …is a huge fan of variable pricing, or congestion pricing

    +

    Private toll operators, Peters says rightfully, bring private capital to the able, allowing projects to get financed that Virginia otherwise could not afford.

    +

    Congestion pricing, she adds, manages transportation corridors on the basis of supply and demand, allocating scarce capacity in a manner very much like long-distance phone service.

    +

    ..they can put in place direct user fees that will be targeted to areas where congestion is at its worst

    +

    ..embracing tolling as a solution to Virginia’s transportation funding challenges would cut traffic, generate needed revenue, improve transit, and significantly benefit the environment.

    =

    Another bureaucrat embracing a philosophy that will ensure she has a job when her current appointment ends.

  12. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Oh good. I guess the Bush Administration has done all the good it can do for the country and now is dispensing invaluable advice to the states. I wonder how transportation planning is going down in New Orleans. Oh, yeah…I forgot.

    Heck of a job, Brownie!

    However, even by Bush standards, this woman seems lost. Our roads are like the long distance telephone network. Hasn’t the cost / minute of long distance calling gone down over the last 20 years? Hasn’t it gone down because more and more capacity was added to the network? Haven’t most telcos implemented flat rate pricing instead of variable, per minute pricing? Hmmmm. OK, so maybe that’s the worst possible example to use.

    Heck of a job, Mary.

    The good news is that she’ll soon be joining Brownie in the unemployment line. Oh wait. No she won’t. She’ll just go back and work for … a road tolling company. Or maybe she’ll run for Governor of Arizona. She said she was going to do that in 2006. Only one problem … she doesn’t live in Arizona. She lives in Virginia – where she is registered to vote. It seems there is some annoying law about having to live in Arizona in order to run for Governor of Arizona. Damn. If there isn’t always some detail getting in the way of the Bushies’ brilliant plans.

    So, Sec. Peters is trying to address another one of those annoying details that plague the Bush Administration. This particular nit involves a massive expansion in government accompanied by deep tax cuts. It seems this combination of run away spending without equivalent revenue is causing the government to run out of money. Who could have ever dreamed that would happen? And, of course, taxes are bad. So, how to deal with this unexpected problem? Ohhh Ohhhh Mr. Kotter! I know. Just like in New Orleans – basically don’t do anything. Keep collecting all the taxes but demand that “users pay”. Of course, it will only be a tiny percentage of users. You know, those in “congested” areas. Everywhere else roads are free.

    Tolls are taxes when you apply them to public roads built with taxpayer money using rights of way taken (through threat of force) by the government.

    The Republican Party stands for:

    1. Massive increases in the size and scope of government.
    2. Higher taxes without having the honesty to call a tax a tax.

    Digusting.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    One of the generally accepted reasons for the housing market collapse is a sustained period where housing prices increased much faster than average incomes.

    Now we continue to see both government spending and tax collections increase at rates much faster than average incomes.

    Even the WaPo editors and Bill Lecos should understand this one.

    TMT

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I see two problems with the angst associated with road tolling and Mary Peters.

    1. – first and foremost, folks are in denial about the scope and scale of the tax increases that would be needed to actually REDUCE congestion. Total Denial.

    2. – closely followed by a “kill the messenger” mentality….

    “There is ample evidence at this point in time that the current system just does not work.

    It is not working to make sure that our transportation system is running well and producing efficiently the throughput of traffic that we need to get through the system.

    The result has been the failure of performance in a very major area and that’s congestion.”

    http://www.trafficworld.com/newssection/government.asp?id=46888

    Can anyone really disagree with her statement about how successful we have NOT been in dealing with congestion?

    Is her statement a lie?

    Then she says this:

    “Despite the fact that we’ve increased funding 100 percent over the last 10 years, congestion has gotten 300 percent worse in that same period of time.

    Now, some people say it’s just a matter of money, and that if we had more money everything would be fine, but I do not believe that at all.

    I believe the current system isn’t functioning well. It’s unsustainable, it’s unresponsive, it’s based on a fossil-based fuel tax, a commodity that we as a nation want to use substantially less of…”

    Now .. is this a corrupt statement?

    “There’s also an erosion of public confidence. I call it a failure of investor confidence. We haven’t increased the federal gas tax since 1993. I assure you, if the public were clamoring and beating up on members of Congress to increase the gas tax it would have happened. But the fact is that they’re not. They’ve lost confidence in the system because of the substantial amount of earmarking and special programs that have been added layer upon layer since the Interstate Highway System was authorized.”

    Is this a lie?

    and then:

    “And over time, these 108 different programs have been built up and they all take money away from the highway and the transit portion of the funds and they don’t necessarily deal with what I think is the major problem in our system today, which is congestion.”

    108 programs…. imagine that..

    Ms. Peter’s actually sounds like some of the bloggers in BR who complain long and hard about how the current system is wasteful and inefficient and non-responsivce….and despite 4 billion dollars annually in Virginia – we are not only NOT seeing less congestion – but MORE congestion.

    ..yet the stock response has been:

    1. – raise taxes

    2. – “reform” the process “make those guys do what they are supposed to be doing”.

    I think Ms. Peters has a better grip on reality – at least she admits that reforming the system is wishful thinking.

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “It makes little sense — and it’s certainly not sustainable — to increase our reliance on gasoline taxes at a time when we all recognize the need to decrease fuel consumption ….”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    If you want to decrease fuelconsumption, then raise the tax on it.

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “That is why citizen education is so important.”

    It is important that they hear the truth, not some canned idiological claptrap.

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There are two driver Households with 3, 4 or 5 register vehicles. “

    So what?

    There are also businesses that own dozens of vehicles.

    There are still a lot more people who have access to cars, and a lot more people who share cars, than have access to transit. Your argument only shows that cars ARE shared vehicles, for the most part.

    RH

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If just raising the gas tax and then building more capacity were the solution, how does one explain the fact that Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile all limit their customers’ peak-time calling minutes in almost all calling plans?

    My family plan has XXX peak minutes and unlimited off-peak minutes. So does virtually every other pricing plan have a limited number of peak minutes.

    The carriers can give away minutes at 10 pm or Saturdays at noon. But if they had no limit on minutes during the normal business day, they would, in many markets, find their network capacity strained and be forced to add capacity constantly.

    Isn’t this the same principle that many argue should be applied to energy pricing? So why doesn’t it apply to driving automobiles?

    Tolling major roadways will reduce demand. A toll into Tysons Corner (or very high parking rates) would yield the visionary walkable community that Connolly extols. But it would also make Tysons less attractive than other places without similar fees. Hence, when push comes to shove, the Tysons landowners will oppose high parking fees or congestion tolls. “Just raise the gas tax.”

    Now Bob, Groveton and others point out flaws in some of the details about tolls, but those can be addressed. But the imposition of tolls will have a stronger demand repression affect than just raising the gas tax. That’s probably why tolls are opposed by the real estate industry. They work.

    TMT

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “One thing is for sure – if the GA does not act to raise taxes – what is left on the table is – tolls and not much else.”

    Tolls ARE taxes.

    If the GA wants more money for transportation they are going to raise taxes.

    Now we are talking about who will pay the taxes and how much. will it be a few paying a lot, with everyone to benefit, or will it be a lot of people paying a lettle, with everyone to benefit?

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Tolling major roadways will reduce demand.”

    No it won’t. What it will reduce is usage, not quantity demanded.

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “A toll into Tysons Corner (or very high parking rates) would yield the visionary walkable community that Connolly extols. “

    Complete and utter nonsense. No, it won’t transorm Tyson’s into a walkable community. It is simply too big.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Many more do not have a vehicle for everyone that has to get to places that are only accessible by Autonomobile.”

    And many, many, many many more do not have access to transit that will take them to places that are only accessible by automobile.

    RH

  23. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “If you want to decrease fuel consumption, then raise the tax on it.”

    re: “If the GA wants more money for transportation they are going to raise taxes. “

    The GA AND 80% of taxpayers have said MORE THAN ONCE that they did NOT want higher taxes on gasoline….

    What part of this do ya’ll not understand and refuse to accept?

    Is your “solution” to IMPOSE a tax that 80% oppose? What planet are ya’ll living on?

    are you really after solutions – or are you more wedded to an ideology – no matter how futile?

    We can call tolls taxes – fine.

    but the difference is one of them is a quid pro quo tax.

    Every day, you can choose to NOT pay that tax if you can find a better/cheaper way to not…

    they make GPS units right now that allow you to find the fastest way to get from A to B without tolls.

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    What part of tolls are a tax is it that you don’t accept?

    There was a good letter to the editor in Sunday’s post outlining the flummagoguery that Republican tax renaming has devolved to.

    I’ll bet that 80% or more of those that have tolls imposed will be opposed to higher taxes also. What is wrong for the many is still wrong for the few. Even more wrong because the injustice will be higher. Doesn’t the state consitution say something about taxes being evenly imposed?

    “Every day, you can choose to NOT pay that tax if you can find a better/cheaper way to not… “

    That would be great if there WAS such a way, but there isn’t, which is the only reason the tolls can posssibly work: they are cherry picking.

    What’s worse, theya re cherry picking with a non-compet clause, just so that there never will be a ceaper way…..

    80% don’t want higher gas taxes. But they want their bridges maintained for free. If I order you to jump over the moon, and you don’t do it, whose fault is that?

    Even Adam Smith recognized that roads were so central to the general public good that they should be paid for from the public coffers.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations” (1776): “The expence of maintaining good roads and communications is, no doubt, beneficial to the whole society, and may, therefore, without any injustice, be defrayed by the general contribution of the whole society.”

    Fromn the post letter to the editor.

    RH

  26. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    two really bad assumptions:

    1. – that people have no choice but to drive solo every day at rush hour which is totally incorrect..

    2. – that you can go ahead and raise taxes on the 80% that are opposed – and use your rationales to convince them that you know better than they do.

    People don’t like tolls – agreed but they DO have choices… just not the perfect ones they’d prefer.

    With taxes, you have NO choices at all.

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    One really bad assumption.

    That just because 80% of th epeople do not wish to be taxed, that they ave the right to impose a discriminatory tax on the other 20%.

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “that people have no choice but to drive solo every day at rush hour which is totally incorrect..”

    The question isn’t whether they have another choice, but whether it is a GOOD choice. You don’t make it a better choice by taxing or tolling the other choice out of existence.

    RH

  29. TMT: “Now Bob, Groveton and others point out flaws in some of the details about tolls, but those can be addressed. But the imposition of tolls will have a stronger demand repression affect than just raising the gas tax.”

    That’s exactly the problem. They cannot be addressed. Tolls are inherently wasteful. No way around that. They create bottlenecks and congestion outside the toll road. That can’t be fixed either, unless every road is tolled.

    The root of the problem is that you’re thinking simplistically about the effect of a toll on one road, not the effect it will have on the entire transportation network. Make it expensive to take a certain freeway and people will take neighborhood roads and side streets. You’ve done nothing, as RH said, to address demand. Nothing. But I suppose using the lingo makes faux free marketers to feel better about themselves.

    RH —

    There is an entire chapter in the Wealth of Nations about tolling. It’s worth a read. Smith fully debunks many of scams that are being trotted out now — and he did so long before there was an excise tax alternative. (It’s not like you could have taxed hay effectively back then.)

    Larry —

    You have it reversed. #1 is reform (stop wasting money). #2 is raise taxes as a last resort for well-defined projects. The order cannot be reversed.

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Bob & Ray – Thanks for the additional points. In general, I would agree with you vis a vis toll roads and demand.

    However, I think that in at least two cases demand repression will occur. One is over fairly long distances. If a toll is put on I-66 from the Beltway to D.C., there are sufficient substitutes (Lee Highway, Route 50, Wilson Blvd.) that could be used. Query whether one can patch together other routes going from Stafford County, for example, to D.C. I suspect that the time spent in snaking along that route would more than eat the toll charge.

    The second case the “walled city,” i.e., Tysons Corner. There are only so many ways into Tysons. (Contrast Rosslyn-Ballston) Tolling those bottlenecks would likely cause demand repression, IMO.

    TMT

  31. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Not Ed Risse,

    You raise a good question: “If everyone pays their own way through congestion tolling, why do you care about balance?

    “Won’t millions of individuals making their own choices decide for themselves what a balanced living arrangement is?”

    I care about “balance” because under Business As Usual scenarios, even with congestion pricing, commuter choices are severely restricted. Zoning codes and other municipal regulations severely curtail the types of communities that developers can build, and where they can build them. Unfortunately, there is no “free” marketplace in land development, so land uses are not free to evolve to more transportation-efficient uses that would benefit toll road users.

    In previous remarks, you seemed to be of the opinion that achieving “balance” is a matter of imposing the vision of an anointed planning elite. I see it quite differently. I see more “balance” arising from greater free market forces. All other things being equal, free markets will strive to create balance in jobs, housing and amenities because that is what most people desire.

    Achieving balance can never be a purely free market endeavor, however, because we live in a society in which government provides infrastructure and public services that would influence the shape of development even in the absence of zoning. But if government created a level playing field by charging the location-variable costs of providing those utilities and services, a free market would tend to provide balance, and motorists would enjoy a broader range of options for minimizing their payment of congestion tolls.

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “land uses are not free to evolve to more transportation-efficient uses that would benefit toll road users.”

    Well, yes, but you would not have to benefit toll road users with “better” land use choices if you didn’t disbenefit them with tools in the first place.

    The land use issues you raise and the toll issues are separate: if it is really a “better” land use then it shouldn’t matter if tolls are in place or not.

    On the other hand, with tolls in place, some “better” land uses won’t happen – just to avoid the tolls.

    RH

  33. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “….we live in a society in which government provides infrastructure and public services that would influence the shape of development even in the absence of zoning.”

    Well, if zoning and infrastructure provision (or lack thereof) are negatively afffecting land use decisions, what does that tell you?

    RH

  34. charlie Avatar

    Jim — at least you are honest enough to admit that tolling is much difference in practice than in theory. The fact that people pushing it stand to makes millions also makes a stink.

    But we have a semi-effective system in gas taxes. As I’ve said before, if you assume in 2014 we have $7 gas we can make some assumptions. We would be driving like Europeans do now. Take the UK: average car drives about 9K miles a year and gets 25 MPG.

    I won’t walk though the math anymore, but given 7 million vehicles in Virginia, that comes out to about 453,600,000 a year in gas tax revenue (at 18 cents state tax)

    According to VDOT at

    http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/Agenda_Item_4_Final_FY_09-14_Budget_Presentation_%282%29.pdf

    2014 budget projections are asking for about $1.1 billion in gas tax revenue. So we are looking at shortfall of about $700 million in Virginia.

    At that point, tripling the state gas tax (from 18 cents to 54 cents) would bring in about $1.1 billion in additional revenue. Yes, an increase from $7 gas to $7.50 would result in lower gas usage, but at that point the pain of filling your tank would not hurt much more.

    Two notes on that:

    1. $7 gas in not a realistic price point in 2014; at that point the US economy would be in major recession. Gas in europe would be over $15 a gallon and both China and India would also be experience steep demand drops. I’m painting a worse case scenario.

    2. As you’ve pointed out, at $7 a gallon the number of vehicles miles would fall — as would congestion and potentially VDOT spending (although the gas-inflation might destroy some of the savings). So the break even point might be closer to 45 cents a gallon.

    Let me throw out another number. Assume in 2014 we do have $7 gas and a $700 million shortfall. What level of tolling would bring in $700 million. Dulles Toll Road (the most successful) brings in $70 million a year. We can find 10 intestates in Virginia that can generate that level of revenue? Remember, people will drive less at $7 gas as well.

    In short, Mary Peters’ argument about increases in the price of gas destroying VDOT are bunk; modest gas tax increases can solve most of the shortfalls. Tolling isn’t the answer.

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Won’t millions of individuals making their own choices decide for themselves what a balanced living arrangement is?”

    No. You are still stuck on the erroneous idea that toll roads are an exercise in free markets, which they are decidedly not.

    If you think that tolls are a tax on behavior that is ndesireable because it creates a negative unpaid for externality, then you have an obligation to set that tax no higher than the cost of the externality.

    If the toll is set too low, then those suffering the externality have their property rights negatively affected. If it is set too high then those paying the toll have their property rights negatively affected.

    Ordinarily, the way you resolve this is by negotiating the price in the market, but that assumes that there ae other providers, not that your “choice” is to do without.

    But since the toll is a tax it is going to be imposed by government (with help from the contractors) and there is no possibility of negotiation. As a result, millions of indivisuals will NOT be making their own free choice.

    And, the toll is almost sur to be set wrongly.

    RH

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Demand depends on the availability of substitutes. Goods with a lot of substitutes have more elastic demand. toll roads are designed to be in places where there is (and won’t ever be) any substitute.

    Demand also depends on how the market is defined. If entry to the city is defined as autos plus transit, then the elasticity is LOWER than if you define it as only atou access.

    And, demand depend on the share of the consumers budget the product takes up. The larger the share of the budget the more elastic the good. This is the fala flaw in Larry’s argument. He thinks you can get just as much money by taxing a few an outlandish amount, but that probably won’t happen.

    RH

  37. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “This is the fala flaw in Larry’s argument. He thinks you can get just as much money by taxing a few an outlandish amount, but that probably won’t happen.”

    fatal flaw?

    actually.. I’ve never said how much money is or should be involved – because what tolls are about is not money but demand management and if demand is sufficient then build in response to the specific demand – not claims of demand.

    And blogger Charlie (who sounds a LOT like blogger Bob for some reason)… also seems much more concerned about how much more money could be collected if the gas tax is increased – but never once do you or him talk about how much is actually needed…

    …. just “more”

    your advocacy is to tax for “more”…

    no connection at all to how much more is needed ..where.. and why..

    no pricetag for buying down congestion…

    just tax more….

    this is why the 80% are opposed…and will choose a toll/tax that they can avoid paying in a number of ways if they wish.

    Tolls are UnAmerican and instead intended as a Government (read taxpayer) function?

    Tolls, in fact, are VERY American and in fact, Eisenhower wanted the Interstate system to be paid for with tolls…not taxes…

    If we had done what Eisenhower has originally wanted….

    … how far away would folks have moved from their jobs.. when the farther they moved..the more it would have cost them?

    .

  38. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    News Flash:

    “Dow Jones Indexes and Brookfield Asset Management Launch Global Infrastructure Indexes”

    …”a global index series designed to serve as benchmarks of companies that are owners and operators of key infrastructure assets such as toll roads, pipelines and ports.”

    …”there is a greater demand among investment professionals for high-quality benchmarks that accurately reflect this burgeoning asset class.”

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/dow-jones-indexes-brookfield-asset/story.aspx?guid={ACFED4F5-320E-40DE-8A88-A017B36FBB38}&dist=hppr

    Now.. there are at least two ways to look at this news…

    Mary Peters is on to something…

    … or.. the ever more popular – nefarious foreign flag conspiracy view

    … now what would be a real kick in the pants… would be news reporting that Mary Peters would be leaving her government post to assume leadership of this fund…and that her top staff would all be illegal immigrants.

  39. charlie Avatar

    larry:

    Sorry, I’m not Bob. Have no idea who he is.

    I agree tolls may have be able to play a role in congestion or demand management. For instance, I’d rather see I-66 inside the beltway become a toll than a 3 lane highway.

    Since I’m advocating a modest increase in the gas tax, in the order of 10 cents, I don’t think people will be to avoid that by going to another state. Yes, a 10 cent gas tax won’t reduce congestion problems but it will fill any VDOT funding gap.

    The problem with your view is that

    1. The companies that operate tolling aren’t interested in reducing congestion; as the LExus Lane on the beltways prove they actually want to increase congestion elsewhere so they can make more money.

    2. The problems we have in NoVA are primarily on secondary roads — not intestates.

    3. A more effective way of reducing congestion is increasing the price of parking, rather than the complex and civil-liberty sapping tolling.

  40. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    my apologies Charlie.

    re: who decides what the goals of congestion pricing should be….

    It’s true – the goal of any company is to maximize the return on investment.

    I’m not convinced that the HOT lanes folks have NoVa by the short hairs.

    I’m not sure how we conclude at this point that they do.

    Don’t forget – the revenues over and above a certain percentage accrue NOT to the toll road operator and – we know – can be used for things like transit and other road (bottleneck removing?) projects.

    some would say that METRO/VRE are “competitors” of HOT Lanes also so my interpretation (and I am clearly no lawyer) would be that the context of “competing improvements” would be adding capacity to other roads – rather than “improving” their through-flow – unless it is clear that the logical termini are aligned with the HOT lane logical termini.

    I would think before we could conclude what “non compete” really means – that we need more than our current speculation.

    If this agreement actually does rule out ANY improvements to NoVa secondary roads – I WOULD be shocked..

    do we know for a fact that this is true?

    re: reducing congestion through increasing parking – which is NOT a civil-liberty sapping strategy (really?) …

    what are you trying to achieve with higher priced parking that is different than what tolling what achieve?

    and if that is the case – then what you are saying is that NoVa elected – have had this option all along and never did need the State’s “help” much less that “help” being in the form of HOT Lanes.

    don’t you think that NoVa leaders knew about the coming of the HOT lanes and could have stopped them in their tracks if they did not want them?

    I find the whole affair interesting.

    It’s not like Kaine or VDOT could come and tell NoVa – “You are going to have HOT lanes whether you like it or not”.

    There HAD TO BE – a substantial level of agreement and concurrence from the local elected – both BOS and GA for HOT lanes to be accepted.

    don’t you think?

    but anyhow.. let’s assume that
    the goals of HOT lanes and high-priced parking are the same.

    then why are tolls and less or more anti civil-liberty than high-priced parking?

    re: 10 cent gas tax.

    I agree with this – and I add further – index the gas tax such that the gas tax keeps pace with inflation and we get away from the problem of the State needing GA action to deal with maintenance issues – although – I WOULD like to see a comparison of Virginia’s average road maintenance costs with other states.

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “actually.. I’ve never said how much money is or should be involved – because what tolls are about is not money but demand management and if demand is sufficient then build in response to the specific demand – not claims of demand.”

    Circular logic. We will manage the demand, and then when it proves insufficient, we won’t build anything.

    You have never said how much money should be involved because you know it cannot be enough to meet even our maintenance needs.

    And that’s IF you are willing to redistribute regionally.

    IF tolls are a true “user pays” situation then there won;t be any money to redistribute.

    Yoour entire argument is a fraud, ill-conceived, promotes inefficiency, and it is environmentlaly unfriendly, not to mention dis-egalitarian.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I don’t think what Eisenhower wanted has very much bearing ontoday’s problems.

    If the interstate highway system had paid for itself through user fees, not punitive meaures, then people would still make their choices and live where they choose to live.

    Overall, the cost of roads would have been little different, and most people would have paid more or less what they pay now.

    What part of regression to the mean is it that you don;t understand?

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “your advocacy is to tax for “more”…

    no connection at all to how much more is needed ..where.. and why..”

    I never said that. I advocate for better prioritizing and better metrics. You don’t think we need a blank sheet to figure out what is needed, because you think we demand mange down to nothing.

    I say that when we figure out what is needed, it is going to cost more money than we seem to have. Whatever you call the source of more money, I call it more taxes.

    RH

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    putting tolls on the roads to slow development in Fairfax County sounds like a winner to me.

    TMT might be right, but it won’t slow development, only move it.

    EXCEPT THAT, there are more than 2000 juridictions with some kind of growth control in place. It is only a question of time before an irresistable force meets an immovable object.

    This is the same argument EMR frequently makes.

    RH

    RH

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “…this is why the 80% are opposed…and will choose a toll/tax that they can avoid paying in a number of ways if they wish.”

    Well sure, 80% know they won;t be affected by tolls. It is yet another way to tax the guy behind the tree. The main way they avoid the tolls, is by not living where they cause them to be enacted. It is taxation without representation.

    RH

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    some would say that METRO/VRE are “competitors”

    That’s true when they are in similar corridors providing similar service and similar levels of service.

    But, in that case you can define the market as commuter provision and ignore the competition.

    Corn Chex and Ceerios have competitiors in the cereal market, but cereal as a whole has no competition for breakfast, nor does it compete (much) for dinner.

    RH

  47. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Take the UK: average car drives about 9K miles a year and gets 25 MPG.

    Yeah, take the UK. now multiply its area by that of the U. S. and what do you get?

    The UK is a little over half the area of Virginia but it has 8.6 times as many people.

    When we have 17.2 times as many people as we have now, then intercity trains will make economic sense: if you want more trains, then pray for a lot more growth!

    RH

  48. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If UK density is 17.2 times as great as the U.S., then you should figure that anything you might need would be 17.2 times as close.

    Yet they STILL drive 9k miles per year. Despite heavily subsidized mass transit they drive almost half as much as wee do, and since they are 17 times as close that means they are 8 times less effiicent than we are.

    Except they earn almosst 25% less than we do so their transportation system is ten times less efficient than ours. And where does all that money come from? Right out of THEIR pockets which means they have that much LESS to live on and their mortgage payments are that much MORE than ours.

    Now, what did Groveton say a 3 bedroom town hous costs in part of London? $8,400,000. Divide that by ten and you have 840,000, which is not too far off from the cost of a townhouse of smilar proportions in some U.S. neighborhoods.

    Does anybody still want the British System of creating “balance”?

    RH

  49. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Oh, yeah. I forgot they pay twice as much as we do for gas, so their system is really 20 times less efficient than ours.

    RH

  50. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There HAD TO BE – a substantial level of agreement and concurrence from the local elected – both BOS and GA for HOT lanes to be accepted.

    don’t you think?”

    No. I think it got SOLD by special interests, just like any other GA action.

    RH

  51. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “index the gas tax such that the gas tax keeps pace with inflation “

    Should have done so 20 years ago, as some other states have done.

    We keep hearing taxes should not outpace inflation plus population. The gas tax has done neither.

    RH

  52. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    What would the gas tax be if you indexed it for inflation from 1986 until today?

    Somehow, I expect that Larry’s gruding acceptance of ten cents wouldn’t cover the spread.

    RH

  53. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Mary is just securing her future with one of the foreign companies interested in influencing our public policy to their benefit. Her Chief Council DJ Gribbons is already experienced at working for these companies then moving to DOT to promote policy to benefit those companies, returing for a high paying job and then taking a 50% cut in pay to return to DOT to push though more policy.

  54. charlie Avatar

    My point of raising the UK model is merely to do some back of the envelope calculations regarding gas prices. UK prices for gas are about $9 a gallon, and we know that people will drive less if gas costs more.

    So we can look at say, hey, here’s some people with cars that still drive 9K miles a year with gas at $9 a gallon. If you go back to my original point, I’m trying to model how much gas tax Virginia would raise in the world of $7 gas, and I’m using the UK as a worse-case model to compare.

    Larry, look at the agreement the state has in place with the two operators. Although Metro and other transit options are not included, the purpose is to make sure the Lexus lane operators get a guaranteed return every year. Side note: a problem with these sorts of arrangements is usually the private company comes back in a few years and sues the state saying we expected more revenue under the agreement.

    Tolling requires camera, monitors and other implements that track our use of highways. It also creates backups whenever the toll is collected. Yes, there are technical solutions. And in some instances tolling works out OK. It is just not a blanket solution.

    In terms of parking, what hurts me more? The 50 cents of gas I spend driving to work, the potential $3 toll, or the $18 parking? Trust me, I take the Metro because of parking expenses. I’d like to see you get a $15 toll on the Roosevelt Bridge in the morning.

  55. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    ” we know that people will drive less if gas costs more.”

    So raise the gas tax, like UK did.

    I’m a systems guy. If you want to tlk about the UK system, talk about the whole system, don’t do your usual stunt and cherry pick to prove a point, that’s pointless.

    RH

  56. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I take the Metro because of parking expenses.”

    Translation; someone has imposed an artificial external cost on me, which affects my property rights.

    Translation: Metro isn’t worth what it costs on its own. I have to be incentivized through negative externalities.

    Translation: I endure lesser service because better service isn’t available.

    RH

  57. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: …” So raise the gas tax, like UK did.
    .
    .
    .

    “I take the Metro because of parking expenses.”

    Translation; someone has imposed an artificial external cost on me, which affects my property rights.”

    If the UK …”artificially” raises the gas tax – as you advocate – and then spends it on transit – as you oppose – what does that mean?

    Are you advocating “artificially” raising the gas tax ONLY if it is spent on what you think is correct?

    so… you’re really only opposed to “artificially” raising the price of gas if they spend it on transit?

    How about this:

    The UK raise the prices of gas to pay for transit.

    NoVa – instead of raising the price of gasoline – instead raises the price of tolls, (which you call a tax), to pay for transit.

    are we not essentially emulating the UK model by substituting tolls for taxes?

  58. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “more places”

    won’t congestion tolls – tend to create “more places” which both RH & TMT advocate?

  59. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The UK raise the prices of gas to pay for transit.

    No. Gas taxes go into the general fund to be spent as public officials see fit. It is not earmarked for transit.

    ———————————–

    Yes, congestion tolls will make those places less desireable and tend to create other places. I think we could do the same thing at less cost if that is the goal.

    ———————————

    I think there is an argument to be made that both transit and roadways should be free to use. I think that for much of public transit, it would be better used. The part that is still not used should be shut down. There would be no reason to argue about “unfair subsidies” and transit would compete on an equal footing with roadways.

    I think this is the path to maximum public benefit for both roadway and transit expenses, and it would eliminate a lot of stupid quibbling over which is better or more favored.

    You would still have to figure out how to raise the money.

    RH

  60. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “are we not essentially emulating the UK model by substituting tolls for taxes?”

    No, of course not. Even in the UK where people drive less, most people drive, and that means most people pay the tax.

    Tolls are targeted against a favored few.

    RH

  61. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “so… you’re really only opposed to “artificially” raising the price of gas if they spend it on transit?”

    I don’t care how you spend the money, as long as you can justify it on some kind of an equal basis with other priorities. I believe there is an economic space for transit: we should find out what that is and exploit it. But, transit does NOT provide the same service as roadways. The two are fundamentally different and they need to be analyzed differently. Transit is not and never will be a repalcement for autos, or something similar.

    What I object to is calling something a user fee and then spending the money on something else. THAT is dishonest. Calling for increased penalties agains drivers whether in terms of parking fees or punitive gas taxes in order to increase the “popularity” or the “economic advantage” of transit is equally dishonest.

    And besides that it is economically stupid.

    RH

  62. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “so… you’re really only opposed to “artificially” raising the price of gas if they spend it on transit?”

    I’m opposed to raising money from what are ostensibly road use funds and then claiming that roads “don’t pay their way” or that autos are “heavily subsidized.”

    There are a lot of things that need to be done, and a lot of ways to do them, but they all take money.

    Somehow we have become so twisted that we can’t be happy with ordinary accomplishments that we work for and we pay for. We also have to feel as if we pulled the wool over someone’s eys, that “we won”, or twist and spin what we actually accomplished to make it look better politically.

    It is a waste of time and effort, which most people can see through. Every time we attempt it we cheapen ourselves and everything we claim to stand for.

    RH

  63. A decently in depth piece in today’s Sydney Morning Herald on the fraudulent business practices of our new Australian overlords:

    “Three years ago, a 75 year-old academic from Sydney University, Dr John Goldberg, issued a paper claiming Australia’s toll road companies were unsustainable unless the Government continued to prop them up with subsidies under its infrastructure bond scheme. Goldberg was rubbished by the operators Transurban and Macquarie.”

    And then, last month, Transurban’s new chief Chris Lynch conceded his business model was unsustainable.

    “That is a departure from the other operators whose line is, yes, oil price assumptions were factored into our traffic model but, no, we won’t be revealing to the public what our oil price assumptions are because they don’t matter. The price of petrol, you see, doesn’t have much of an effect on motorists’ behaviour and therefore toll revenues. ‘Inelastic,’ apparently.”

    If you’re going to advocate “public private partnership” toll roads because it sounds like a wonderful ivory tower concept, you need to actually look at the books of the companies you’re inviting to take over. Virginia has chained its taxpayers to a ponzi scheme for the next 80 years.

    Also, I am also pleased to learn that I am not Charlie. I’m not RH either, if you’re wondering.

  64. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Is this really about foreign ownership or is that just one of a number of a wide array of arguments used against toll roads in general?

    In other words – are you fine with toll roads if they are not foreign operated?

    I suspect not.

    And while I’d not disagree that there are more than a few unsavory aspect of the current process of approving TOll Roads, I’d point out that the “ponzi” scheme involved most if not all of your elected officials, as well as VDOT and the US DOT which kicked in a billion dollars worth of your Federal gas tax.

    Why would you then have trust in this same group to do roads with higher taxes instead?

  65. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “….just one of a number of a wide array of arguments used against toll roads ….”

    Gee, Larry, how many do you need before you concede it is a bad idea from end to end?

    RH

  66. “I’d point out that the “ponzi” scheme involved most if not all of your elected officials, as well as VDOT and the US DOT which kicked in a billion dollars worth of your Federal gas tax.”

    Indeed. They should be jailed. They’re all worthless.

    Public toll roads are not ponzi schemes. Instead, many of them are patronage factories filled with their own form of corruption — especially the ones in Pennsylvania. That’s preferable.

    And no, before you say it, I have no idea if that CBBT is well run. Some of the California’s formerly private but now public toll roads appear to be decently managed — after wasting a monstrous amount of money to pay off private investors.

  67. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    what I’m trying to get at is whether you are opposed to the concept of toll roads or the ways that many are currently implemented.

    In other words, if a toll road is well run – is it acceptable as a way to build and maintain a road?

    Here.. I’m make it easy on you:

    http://jlarc.state.va.us/Meetings/September05/CBBTclr.pdf

  68. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “Gee, Larry, how many do you need before you concede it is a bad idea from end to end?”

    I concede the fact that those opposed to toll roads use an array of arguments… not that those arguments are really any different than the same arguments that folks would use to oppose the current gas-tax method of funding roads.

    Get it?

    The current system of funding roads does not work.

    It does not relieve congestion.

    It is not supported by more than 70% of the folks that pay the tax – because most of them – including folks like Bob – think the money is wasted and not being spent for roads that benefit them.

    If the current system “worked”, toll roads would never come up as an alternative.. to start with.

    Right?

    I think toll roads will prevail – primarily because more people more strongly oppose gas tax increases than toll roads….

    If 80% are opposed to increases in the gas tax – as evidenced by most polls and the outcome of the General Assembly is no new gas taxes.. how will new roads get built … say in HR/TW?

    How will they get their bridges and tunnels?

    I think they will vote for tolls.

    but why would they do that if all the bad stuff you hear about tolls is true?

    How do YOU think HR/TW will get new bridges and tunnels if not from tolls?

  69. charlie Avatar

    larry — interesting point about tidewater. Yes, that is one part of the state where NEW interstates and tunnels are needed. When building new stuff, I can see an argument for tolls, although the devil is in the details.

    NoVA, on the other hand, doesn’t need new intestates or bridges (the feds picked up the Wilson Bridge). What we need is improved secondary roads and intersections, where tolling is completely inappropriate. There may be very small areas that make sense (turning the HOV lanes on 395 into lexus lanes) and most do not (spending millions building lexus lanes on the beltway).

    In any case, I don’t think the people of Virginia really would care about 10 cents gas tax. Republican politicians clearly do — they are afraid the crazies would run against them in primaries.

  70. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    the 10 cents – is about enough to cover the maintenance deficit so I have no problem with it.

    but I strongly suspect a 10 cents tax on gasoline will be a net loser for NoVa….

    once that money gets to Richmond, NoVa will be lucky to get it all back.

    NoVa would be better off trying to get excess revenues from the HOT lanes to go for local improvements.

    I think folks in NoVa would support this idea….

  71. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “…is it acceptable as a way to build and maintain a road?”

    Most probably – not. Tolls are expensive and inefficient to collect.

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