Marginalizing Another Dissident

Ann McLean

by James A. Bacon

The Washington Post recently published a story about a gubernatorial appointment to one of Virginia’s more obscure commissions: the state Board of Historic Resources, which oversees state historic-site designations. The article focused on Governor Glenn Youngkin’s selection of Ann McLean, who believes that Virginia’s heritage is “under attack,” and has condemned the destruction of Confederate monuments as a “dangerous” rewriting of history.

Only three years ago, before the protests unleashed by the George Floyd protests, views on Confederate statues were radically different. A special commission appointed to study the statues on Monument Ave. was debating what to do with the monument which, even before George Floyd’s death, some considered a problem. The committee was leaning then toward “recontextualizing” or “reinterpreting” the statues to reflect the fact that the public understanding of the monuments had changed since they were erected more than a century ago. It was a perfectly acceptable position to argue at that time, as McLean did, that these magnificent works of public art should be preserved in place.

Today, some paint that view as racist.

The WaPo quotes Delegate Lamont Bagby, D-Henrico, the head of the Virginia Legislative Black Caucus, as saying McLean’s appointment showed Youngkin’s “callous attitude toward Black history in Virginia and the lingering effects of institutional racism.” In a text message to the Post, he said that Youngkin seemed intent on “erasing our voices, images and pain without flinching. He must believe no one is paying attention to his appointments or he’s just that brazen to repeatedly thumb his nose at us.”

Count on Bagby to insinuate racism, and count on the Post to publish his comments.

The Post quotes McLean as saying in December that “these statues were built to tell the true story of the American South to people 500 years from now.” The Civil War was fought for the “sovereignty of each state and constitutional law.”

“This whole tragedy is that these statues were built to tell the true story of the American South to people 500 years from now,” McLean said to a Richmond radio host last year. “People want to destroy the evidence of that story.”

To the Post’s readership the idea that Virginians fought for “state sovereignty” and not to uphold slavery will be viewed self-evidently absurd, a confabulation of the Lost Cause narrative. Without rehashing the timeless debate over the causes of the Civil War, however, it is indisputable that while the first Southern states to secede from the Union did so explicitly to preserve slavery, Virginia voted initially not to join them. Only when President Lincoln announced the mobilization of an army to force the Southern states back into the Union did Virginia vote to leave the union — on the grounds of preserving state sovereignty.

McLean lays legitimate claim to expertise on the history of Civil War statues. She wrote her PhD dissertation at the University of Virginia on the topic: “Unveiling the Lost Cause: A study of Monuments to the Civil War Memory in Richmond, Virginia and Vicinity.

The dissertation, written in 1998 before the statues became a culture-wars flash point, acknowledges the links between the Confederate statues on Monument Avenue and the Lost Cause mythology as well as African-American opposition at the time to erecting the statues. But the motivations behind the memorials were more complex and nuanced than conveyed today. As McLean wrote:

Agreement existed among white city leaders to establish a corridor based on War memories which promoted Richmond’s self-perception and identity as a place of historical importance. The Avenue’s statues were erected to proclaim the virtues associated with war (courage, leadership, devotion to duty, scientific ingenuity) with which the South wished to be identified. They also are a collective political message about a failed nation’s strength. Today they reveal the dominance of a white, patriarchal, Protestant society and women’s willingness to uphold that social norm.

Other statues honoring enlisted soldiers testified to a “New South” mind-set and  America’s ideal of a democratic republic.

“Placing a monument was in some sense a dutiful end-statement, from which society could then move forward,” McLean wrote. But the statues were also political statements, inspired by a search for virtue in tradition and to glorify the past. “They are about resistance to changes imposed from without, resistance to a perceived “northern” way of life…. They also testify to a society condition, the lack of racial equality in the military and in many social institutions at the time of their founding. Thus they supported Jim Crow laws which denied power to minorities.”

In other words, the history is complicated. The statues, wrote Mclean, were “multivalent.” Her dissertation sought to elucidate multiple layers of meaning.

Bacon’s bottom line: Bagby and the Post are signaling in the article that complexity and nuance are unwelcome in any discussion of Civil War memorials. They’ve got their own narrative about the statues’ meaning, they’re sticking to it, and there is zero room for compromise. A new orthodoxy has replaced the old, and dissidents like McLean must be portrayed as extremists whose continued participation in the public dialogue is a matter of controversy. 

Full disclosure: I serve with Ann McLean on the board of The Jefferson Council and have published her articles on Bacon’s Rebellion. We are also collaborating on other initiatives relating to Virginia’s culture wars and assaults on individual liberties.


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Comments

115 responses to “Marginalizing Another Dissident”

  1. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    “People want to destroy the evidence of that story.” This statement is where she loses me. People don’t want glorification of men who fought to preserve slavery and destroy the Union, which is different. Evidence of “that story” can be found in history books galore, just as I know that George III was king during the Revolution even though his statues were torn down in the 1770s and 80s.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Mr. Purdy, I have something for you. Just in case you never knew why 155,000 Virginians followed Marse Robert and bled Virginia blue.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbYL7LFG6Ds

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        There were Shufflebargers and Dudleys there, ancestors of mine, indirectly anyway. They were fools fighting for an evil cause, poor men fighting a rich man’s war. Romantic claptrap, James.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          I will spend the remnant of my days defending the honor, virtue, and valor of those brave Virginians who gave the last full measure.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            In that case (Pickett’s Charge, I assume from your Lost Cause clip)… for no good reason… at that point it was more stupidity than valor. The smart ones (a substantial number, btw) refused to make the charge and chose to shelter in a depression of Emmitsburg Road and surrender to Union soldiers after the battle.

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            The brave ones, such as my 3rd great grand uncle Thomas Booker Tredway, gave the last full measure. Tredway dropped out of VMI to join the Chatham Gray’s at age 16. He was amongst the handful the pierced the angle and captured Cushing’s battery. Young Tredway threw himself freely in front of a yankee bullet meant for Colonel Rawley White Martin. Tredway was mortally wounded. He was just 17 years old. Dr. Martin lived until 1912 and made the most of a long and useful life. A pioneering Virginia physician who helped found the Medical College of Virginia. Martin was fully aware of the debt owed to Tredway. My family carries Tredway’s name forward to this day. I could fill up the rest of this day telling you stories about my numerous kinsmen who were in that fateful charge.
            https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11598965/thomas-booker-tredway
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/84ef97788f854e029def28838e0399e0e31e65794c6d76940f9e094d5b09efec.jpg

          3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I have a (in my case) 2nd great grand uncle who survived Cedar Mountain, Antietam, Gettysburg and many others and was killed in the Battle of Peachtree Creek. He is buried at Marietta National Cemetery… he was on the right side of history and truly gave his life for our country…

          4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            “And does it matter, after all, who wins?
            Was that ever really the question?
            Will almighty God
            ask that question in the end?”
            Robert E. Lee
            Evening of July 3rd, 1863.

          5. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Not who won… who was right… who fought for our country… the answer is clear…

          6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Ha! Eric. We have had this same exact run around discussion. Maybe 4 or 5 years ago now. I am pretty sure we ended up the same point then as now. Not to poke you in the eye, but if you are so right why won’t you put your last name by your convictions? I am not ashamed to do so. Your uncle did see real combat. Following Banks at Cedar Mountain was heroic. A near defeat for the might Stonewall. At Antietam your uncle was led by Mansfield. His battered corps breifly captured the Dunkard Church. At Gettysburg your uncle was led by Slocum who stubbornly refused to give up Culps Hill. At Peachtree Creek your uncle was flanked and buried by Johnny Reb. See you in hell Billy Yank!

          7. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Sorry, James, I am just too attached to this 20+ year old Half a Troll fella at this point to let him retire. Plus, it is really fun to watch people grind their teeth in frustration. But I see no harm in using a pen name, it does have a rich tradition behind it in American politics, wouldn’t you say?

            Nonetheless, I really do recognize that the soldiers on both sides showed true heroism (I do not believe that my uncle was ever flanked at Peachtree Creek, however… it was a close thing by my reading of the battle). The idea behind that heroism is where things break down for me… one side did it for country, the other to preserve their culture (much of which was indefensible).

            I have always wondered why the South see Sherman’s march to the sea as something… um… dishonorable (?) … the war was lost well before then, they refused to lay down their arms… from my perspective the North had no other choice… welcome to “modern” warfare, I suppose…

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I do not understand the fetish about folks names for commenters.

            Pen names have been common for a long time and no accusations of bad faith or cowardice, etc.

            And yes.. whether or not an individual demonstrated heroism in the name of their country is entirely different from whether they died for a “just” cause or not – and yes, some of us have trouble admitting or reconciling the death of someone for a “cause” – such as Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan OR the Civil War.

            Heroism (or cowardice) is not the same as allegiance to a good (or bad) cause. They are different in my mind.

          9. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Is your uncle buried at Marietta National Cemetery? That is where most of Sherman’s casualties are resting. I will be there in September. I can put a stick flag up for you if you desire so.
            https://www.cem.va.gov/CEM/cems/nchp/marietta.asp

          10. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Yes, he is. This is him:

            https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/3956026/frederick-sorber/photo

            Wish they would have gotten his name right on his headstone but that’s history now. A flag would be nice… none of those rebel ones though…😉

            If you take a picture, you can send to erichalftroll@gmail.com. I’ll respond back as my true self in exchange (requesting you keep my “secret” – such that it is. I’ve already given you enough that you could easily ID me if you so wish).

          11. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            46th PA Infantry. They suffered severely at Cedar Mountain. You should go and visit this battlefield. They were part of Crawford’s attack that split Jackson’s line, drove back the Stonewall brigade, and routed a third of Jackson’s infantry. Brilliant feat of arms that included rare hand to hand combat. But then “Up Came Hill”. General AP Hill and his vaunted Light Division saved the day. The 46th suffered; out of a total of 504 engaged, the regiment lost 31 killed, 102 wounded, and 111 taken prisoner or missing, a casualty rate of 48%. The regiment never fully recovered from that fateful and hot day in August of 1862. Check out Crawford’s report. It is very good and captures the martial spirit of those brave men.
            https://friendsofcedarmountain.org/2021/02/no-8-crawford/

          12. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I will, thanks. The thing about Frederick is that he was completely forgotten (no wife or children – even buried under the wrong name) until I tracked his story down through my genealogy research. I did have copies of letters he sent his sister (my gg-grandmother) so we knew he existed but did not know his story or fate. Now I feel very attached to him.

            I do want to go to Cedar Mountain… maybe this fall…

          13. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            You let me know when you want to come to Cedar Mountain. My dad is an authorized battlefield tour guide from the Freinds of Cedar Mountain Association. He can retrace the exact movements of the 46th PA. You can walk in the footsteps of brave Frederick. You should share those letters with the Asssociation. They have an impressive portfolio of first hand accounts.

          14. WayneS Avatar

            Your history lessons are always fascinating. You must have been one hell of a good teacher, sir.

            Still are, actually.

          15. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            It is too bad I cannot go back. The left stole from me the very thing I loved. So hard to let go of that wonderful 27 year run I had.

        2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          Revelation Chapter 3 Verse 5 Mr. Haner.

        3. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “They were fools fighting for an evil cause, poor men fighting a rich man’s war. Romantic claptrap, James.”

          That is always the case with only a few exceptions. See John Walton the MACV-SOG member and Vietnam vet.

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Apples and oranges. Vietnam was a misadventure, and a moral gray area, but not patently evil like the violent insurrection to preserve slavery.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Your comment has nothing to do with mine.

            Those with less means always fight the wars declared by our Politicians.

            Vietnam was a proxy war that could’ve stayed proxy if Johnson had practiced a modicum of restraint. Beyond that MACV-SOG and the secret war was successful and it was just overshadowed by Vietnamization.

          3. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Ah, I thought you were talking about the moral dimension of the two. Yes, it’s true that wars are always fought by those with less means. And yes, MACV-SOG was successful (my father was a member, in fact).

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            No, the men who fought in the Civil War most sid so without a thought about slavery.

            Men go to war for the men standing next to them. See the Charge of the Light Brigade.

          5. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Can you cite to where most did without a thought about slavery? And further, it’s not the rank and file who are being celebrated in the vast majority of instances. It’s leadership, and they certainly knew the point of the whole thing.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The leadership seldom define the solider, leadership are Politicians above LTC.

          7. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            But the leadership, and their glorification, is whom Ms. McLean believes should be left in place. Did they know that they were fighting to preserve slavery? Did the people who erected those statues know that as well? The answer to both is ‘yes.’

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Which is true, but has nothing to do with my initial comment.

            Men without means fight the wars of men with means. They don’t get to determine the cause for which they fight and are more than likely fighting for the solider next to them.

          9. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            I agree with that.

          10. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            A misadventure? Tell that to the 4 million dead in that God awful war from hell.

          11. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Yes, misadventure. It was a tremendous loss of resources for no payoff. I think the US was on the right side, but it doesn’t mean that it was a wise decision to go to war. And one the Pentagon thought we would lose and the politicians had no stomach to win.

          12. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            On the right side? We were on the wrong side since the end of WWII when we armed Jap POWs to guard Vietnamese we had imprisoned who resisted the Japs and then objected to French recolonization. Going to war for the Domino Theory was on the right side? The Vietnamese fought us because we invaded their country, just like the Afghans and Iraqis more recently.

          13. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Going to war to contain communism was a misadventure. But given the choice between murderous ideologies and western democracy, it’s not a close call.

          14. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            You are right, it was not a close call. The North Vietnamese were nationalists first, and communists only second after we refused to support them before WWII. With 60k US dead versus several million Vietnamese dead you make a curious choice as to which one was the “murderous ideology”.

            There are millions of bodies, a significant number of them American, on just how wrong we were. It is the same today after being wrong on Afghanistan and Iraq. I ain’t going to relitigate Viet Nam with you here.

            My position then was: Support our troops, bring them home alive now. Then and more recently the politicians who took us into those wars and kept us in them are the criminals, not the guys who fought and died in them. As remarked in the conversation here today, it has always been thus.

          15. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Your facts are inaccurate and imply that we killed all those civilians. We did not. Check your facts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_caused_by_North_Vietnam/VC_forces

          16. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Nope bud, I stated, and did not imply anything. You’re in lala land. We killed at least 2 million in Viet Nam. We have killed more than a million civilians since 2001.

            We had Bin Laden and Al Qaeda trapped in caves in Tora Bora in 2001. Think what a different world it would be if we had taken them there then declared victory and come home.

          17. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Cite your facts. What I cited directly contradicts your silly claim.

          18. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            The escalation of Vietnam served one political purpose. LBJ could finally show the Cold Warriors of his own party that he was not a weak chicken hawk.

      2. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        There were Shufflebargers and Dudleys there, ancestors of mine, indirectly anyway. They were fools fighting for an evil cause, poor men fighting a rich man’s war. Romantic claptrap, James.

      3. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        As Puck said: What fools these mortals be.

      4. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        Right, and if people want battlefield or gravesite memorials, good. We should avoid homages to the Lost Cause and Jim Crow in public places. If we want them recontextualized, which is also a legitimate option, the state better come clean about slavery, Jim Crow, and white supremacy.

        1. “The state better come clean about slavery, Jim Crow, and white supremacy.”

          Come clean? Come clean about what? How do you think the subjects of slavery and Jim Crow have been treated in Virginia schools the last 40 years?

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            In the context of “recontextualizing” monuments, Jim. Read my whole statement.

      5. James, I know someone who wants to contact you — she loved this video clip — but I don’t have a current email address for you. Can you shoot it to me at jabcaon@baconsrebellion.com? Thanks, Jim

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    And this, too, shall pass. Time to put away Confederate toys.

  3. WayneS Avatar

    They’ve got their own narrative about the statues’ meaning, they’re sticking to it, and there is zero room for compromise. A new orthodoxy has replaced the old, and dissidents like McLean must be portrayed as extremists whose continued participation in the public dialogue is a matter of controversy.

    That’s right. And if you, she, and others like you persist in bringing up unpopular or unacceptable narratives that the Ministry of Truth has ordered be placed in the memory hole, you may find yourselves in a cell at the Ministry of Love, with your head immobilized in a cage, and only a single wire door separating your face from a couple of ravenous rats…

    Either that or you’ll be canceled…

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    This past year the Virginia Historical Highway Marker commission added 16 new signs to our highways. Every single one of them represents an important aspect of black history. I looked it over. Great selections. A few questions that deserve an answer. How many applications were rejected by the commission this past year? What were the subjects of those rejections? Why were they rejected? I hope Ms. McLean can find the answers.
    https://www.dhr.virginia.gov/news/16-new-state-historical-highway-markers-approved/

  5. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Four card monte. Find the racism card.

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      Joke’s on you. The Confederacy itself was racist.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        A revelation worth waiting for.

      2. JayCee Avatar

        Just like the union was antisemitic?

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Sadly, it the strongest and most valid of the four. I wish Bacon understood how useful he is to those who wield it.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        My point: it is possible to disagree with this woman’s appointment without calling her racist.

        1. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          No, it’s not. It is the only card they can play. Great art is art, even if you disagree with what it might stand for. Renaissance art was and is art.

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Many statues were mass produced schlock. The few that can qualify as ‘art’ should be preserved. In a museum.

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Which statues are you talking about as “mass produced schlock?” And what does that have to do with the statues in question? They were not “mass produced schlock,” so your point is? I consider modern art to suck – but I don’t advocate destroying it.

          3. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            You said we’re losing ‘works of art.’ Many are not. They’re like garden gnomes. And I addressed the ones that are–they should be put in museums or battlefields.

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Names. Which ones are garden gnomes that are being torn down? I don’t have any garden gnomes, but it seems to me, you pick it up and move it, not tear it down.

          5. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Here’s an article. It’s one of many about the origins of Confed. monuments. I invite you to continue to research for yourself. https://newrepublic.com/article/158715/secret-history-americas-worthless-confederate-monuments

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Names! You do your own homework with your own worthless references. I linked to the New Republic article (a magazine like National Review which has lost its way). The noted scholar Kate Wagner (that was in sarcasm font) stated her opinion and cited a Bridgeport Ct company selling statues for as little as $450. The Monumental Bronze Co made a statue in Connecticut in 1889. An 1889 dollar would be $32.21 today. $450 1889 dollars would be $14,494.50 today. The garden gnomes at Strange’s which I think is overpriced don’t cost near that much, and certainly not at Lowe’s and Walmart.
            Name names and do your own homework. The statues removed were great works of art, even if you choose to take offense. I was OK with the Arthur Ashe statue – he was a fine man, and a great story. But the Marxists didn’t stop there. Then we remove the Confederate statues and are assured it will stop. But now it is on to Jefferson and Madison, and after they fall, Washington. It is all BS. A statue is inanimate, just like a name on a building. Rumors of War is ugly. I don’t advocate tearing it down. Communism is evil and killed at least a hundred million. I can see the Communist symbols without quaking in fear.
            Make your garden gnome case.
            Should the Northern Garden Gnome statues be taken down? Those soldiers fraternized with Southern soldiers and didn’t have the necessary level of hate. Many of them (maybe most) had the same racist attitudes as are alleged uniformly (and incorrectly) to have been held in the South. Tear down all statues and re-name all buildings and streets and towns!

          7. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Get a grip, Walt. I know it’s tough to lose an argument.

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            And I feel for you

  6. James McCarthy Avatar
    James McCarthy

    The culture war trajectory should have taught us that there can be no winners in that war. Yet, enormous time and energy is expended by leaders and combatants alike. Culture is one of the most changeable aspects of society. Its preservation for the sake of preservation creates conflict especially where the objects are of questionable value to the future. Here in the Commonwealth, it is, IMO, time to allow the Lost Cause to be lost.

  7. Let’s take a look at the tourist dollars brought in by those who visited the city with an interest in the Confederacy and The Late Great Pleasantries compared to the money brought by BLM-enthusiasts recently.

  8. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I no longer subscribe to the Post. What else would you have me do? Set my hair on fire? I was there forty years ago, 1981 campaign, when they sent reporters to follow Mills Godwin around hoping he would make some comment they could blow up into a racial incident (he finally talked about racial set asides in state contracts and you could see their excitement). It’s been their thing a long time, being the racism sniffer-outers. Had he used the N word I think Don Baker would have been so happy he would have levitated, but Godwin was way smarter and more a gentleman than any Post reporter I ever met.

    Right. Virginia was hard for the Union before Sumter (where the South fired first, Jim). If that gets you through the night….Politics of the day put up the statues to garner votes and the politics of our day is taking them down to garner votes. Ms. McLean is on the board and I hope she ignores the sniping enjoys the time.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      The South shall rise again! Too bad it won’t be in the habitable zones above 50N and below 40S in the year 2175.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        Appomattox was half time!

        1. WayneS Avatar

          That’s funny!

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Jim Crow was the marching band?

          1. WayneS Avatar

            Okay. I guess that works. It doesn’t stretch the analogy to the breaking point, at any rate.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Klan as cheerleaders?

          3. WayneS Avatar

            That might be a stretch. They never showed enough leg…

          4. WayneS Avatar

            The United Daughters of the Confederacy, though, they had some real lookers.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/527d86b2e323e2dd60c74cfe4c2b7681b7bdcea1a42a553e53a4e1334d1b06ef.jpg

          5. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            I’ll take the daughters any day over these darlings of modern Donkey Pox.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d2e15fd81c44cd01272172bcb4e02ab099c2db261c35e0ef154a1103eeae480d.jpg

          6. WayneS Avatar

            I agree 100%, sir.

          7. Led by Dems all the way to the time of Sen. Byrd and Uncle Joe proclaimed what it is to be black.

          8. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Lincoln’s funeral was the half time show?

          9. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how’d you like the play?

          10. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            I believe she cracked up. Cheese slid right off the cracker. A tragic story for Mary Todd. I have paid homage to her lonely gravesite at Arlington. She had a knack for bringing Uncle Abe out of the depths of self-doubt and depression.

          11. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            The poor guy’s history was not one of Happiness, but gotta give the devil his due, Irrepressible was his middle name. Either he was the world’s number one optimist, or the proof that an inability to learn from experience is an asset.

          12. WayneS Avatar

            That’ll work.

  9. Paul Sweet Avatar
    Paul Sweet

    Although statues of generals might have been erected to glorify the Confederacy, the statues of Confederate foot soldiers at many courthouses were erected to honor the sacrifices that many people’s ancestors made to protect their homeland.

    The average Confederate foot soldier was generally descended from poor settlers from Scotland, Ireland and the northern English borderlands, rather than the landed gentry and Cavaliers who owned the plantations, and probably would have been considered a Deplorable in the eyes of the plantation elite leading the war effort for the South. Most of these foot soldiers were too poor to have slaves. He wasn’t fighting so these wealthy plantation owners could have hundreds of slaves. He was fighting because Union forces were invading his state, destroying his (and his neighbor’s) crops, slaughtering his livestock to feed themselves, and burning his house and barns.

    The Civil War was fought in the South, except for a couple incursions into Maryland and Pennsylvania that didn’t end well for the Rebels. No Confederate general marched from Philadelphia to the sea destroying crops like General Sherman did in his march across Georgia. No Confederate general bragged that the Hudson River Valley would be left so that crows flying over it will have to carry their own rations like General Grant ordered General Sheridan to do to the Shenandoah Valley.

    Even though I’m a damnyankee who had ancestors who fought for the Union, I believe that the Confederate foot soldier statues should remain. Destroying them is insulting the heritage and ancestors of many ordinary people.

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      I do think there’s a material difference between statues of the average soldier and general. I don’t think your characterization of the war strategy of Grant, Sherman and Lincoln is warranted. They knew that the only way to break Confederate will and maintain political support in the north was to show that the war would be inevitably won by the North, and there would be no going back to a morally and culturally bankrupt system like plantation-based slave republic. Hence, total war. And it worked.

  10. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    There is a dimension of the statues that I have not seen any commentary. That is the remarkable artistry of the horses in the statues. My kid, a sculpture grad from VCU, and no fan of the monuments, has remarked he had to go to Rome to see equivalent classical equestrian artistry.

    With their removal we have lost something in public art that is independent of the symbology of Losers Row as it was sometimes known.

    Long ago I lived in the Fan and worked in Northside. I remember looking up at Stuart’s horse’s patoot every morning as I headed to work.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Thus, the progress of time diminishes the good, the bad, and the ugly.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        and for a fistful of dollars we can replace them with undiminished new g,b & u.

  11. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    I know this is a partisan source, but some of these statements are simply crackpot. Mr. Bacon, can you please address or correct or contextualize these statements, in particular:

    The constitution was “broken when Lincoln called up 75,000 troops to fight against secession.” And, she added, “secession was not treason…each state was allowed to secede, we all had seceded from Britain…each state was like its own country, so Lee considered Virginia his country.”

    “Invasion, just like we see Russia invading Ukraine, invading a new territory was wrong. And so many people want to just flatten the whole Civil War to slavery, and of course we know slavery is not good. But I think…slavery would have been outlawed in the South within 5 or 10 years, but they wanted to do it on their time.”

    https://bluevirginia.us/2022/07/audio-gov-youngkins-new-appointee-to-the-va-board-of-historic-resources-says-robert-e-lee-was-a-morally-fine-human-being-secession-was-not-treason-the-norths-invasion-of-the-sout

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      “I know this is a partisan source…” with a link to bluevirginia(dot)us!
      Lack of self-awareness much?
      By the way, all of the statements blared in BV are debatable, but it would require an ability to think, to consider all the facts and circumstances. Robert E. Lee was a man of impeccable character. He graduated from West Point without a demerit. He was respected by the Northern Generals before, during and after the war. He chose to surrender for the good of the country. He worked to re-unite the country.
      Apply Matthew 7:1-5 to yourselves, then pronounce your judgments without forgiveness.
      And, by the way, Ann McLean is a wonderful person, and you might want to consider that people can think differently than you and you could still be friends and not the other a moral reprobate. Get off your high (hobby)horse!

      1. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        I noted it was a partisan source that I cited. I don’t care if Ann McLean is Mother Teresa, but if she did say those things cited in the article, it’s crackpot b.s. It’s not just “different”; it’s demonstrably wrong. I invited Mr. Bacon to offer some additional context, but so far nothing.

        1. I don’t know if Ann made those statements or not. But the statement that “Lee considered Virginia his country” sounds like her. Mainly because it is historically accurate. The U.S. was a system in which states were co-sovereign with the federal government. Lee’s views were no different from those of thousands of other Virginians. The notion that Lee was a “traitor” to his country (the United States) is based on ignorance of the times. He was torn between competing loyalties, and he had to choose one over the other. After the war he sought to bind up the nation’s wounds and reconcile Southerners to the union.

          As for the alleged conjecture that the South would have abolished slavery within 5 to 10 years, I find that unlikely. But serious people have made the argument that the South would have abolished slavery eventually after an opening up of global competition with other cotton producers (Egypt, most notably, as I recall) would have made the South’s cotton economy uncompetitive.

          What’s your argument here? That such a conjecture is so beyond the pale of acceptable discourse that Ann should not be serving on the Board of Historic Resources? I’ll tell you what’s crackpot: claiming that the true founding of America was in 1619 and that the American colonies sought independence to preserve slavery.

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Let’s leave Lee to the side. He fought for the wrong side, and made a bad decision, but I don’t think he was an evil man. Incidentally, he was only one of 8 active duty colonels from Virginia in 1861 who decided to go with the Confed. So the idea that it was “expected” or “de rigueur” is not accurate. IMO, there’s no chance that the south would have ended slavery in 5 to 10 years. This was a canard since the founding (i.e., it’ll die out) and no one goes to war at that scale to protect an institution that is obsolescent. And even if they did, what status would former slaves have had? Certainly not full citizens; it would have been a caste system (read the Confed. constitution; it places blacks in a subordinate position through natural law). But let’s turn to the statements themselves: that the Confed. was a different country (like Russia and Ukraine), had a right to succession, and that Lincoln’s raising of federal troops to put down succession was the real violation of the Const. There is no right to seccession; you don’t get to leave the Union because you lost a free and fair election (contrast Independence where the colonies had no representation in Parliament). The South was not a different country both de facto and de jure. It was never officially recognized as one by other countries, and legally speaking, seccession is a nullity, never legally recognized. Likening it to Russia and UKR is, sorry, totally indefensible and crackpot b.s. Finally, raising troops to put down insurrection has a long history in this country. Washington himself put down insurrections as president. Can you address the aforementioned? Do you agree with me or McLean?

          2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Unfortunately, I doubt you will hear back from JAB. He has likely moved on to his next propaganda piece. But, hey, you’ve got Old Walt here to wrangle with until the cow’s come home….!!

          3. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear that she said those things and was not misquoted. I’d like for someone (not Walt) to explain to me why her opinions are “dissenting” and not just plain “crackpot” nonsense.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I’d be curious to hear her view on the Montpelier issue.

          5. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Have not followed it quite as closely. It sounds like it was a pretty nasty case of anti-woke nonsense predicated on false assertions and a political climate that favors culture war.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            lots of reporting on it… do a google… yes.. the culture wars came to visit…after supposedly, descendants of slaves got equal representation on how to depict history of Montpelier that included slaves.

            Been waiting for Bacon or Walter or someone to post their take on it.

        2. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          I see Jim has stepped in, but he makes the point I would make. Why is it crackpot? Not your mere assertion, which is how indoctrination, with a stifling of dissent, works. Just like the Jefferson-Hemings children issue, we will never know while we are on Earth – but the facts are not fully known, and the constant repetition of one view, that which is worst to Jefferson, is intellectually dishonest and unfair.
          So, which statements are crackpot and why?
          Or are you just a Bot repeating Larry the G’s “wackadoodle” charges and offering a different pejorative?

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            You can read my other post if you’d like an explanation. And sorry, the Jefferson-Hemmings thing is settled. It’s over. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t honor TJ. He was a great man and genius. And horrifically flawed. https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/monticello-affirms-thomas-jefferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Oh…it’s settled! Why, thank you, God!
            It is not settled. See, I read your stupid New Republic article. Why don’t you read the Scholar’s report that has been cited here before? They concluded it was almost certainly not true. So, it is not settled. It is open to debate. And that is the limit of knowledge at this time.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: “settled”. Walter, would you agree that MOST researchers believe it is settled?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Hemings_controversy

            there are almost 100 references in the wiki.

            But I think folks misunderstand the issue with Jefferson – it was not so much whether or not he had children with Hemmings as it was his attitudes towards black people which walked and talked white supremacy.

            That’s why some folks don’t hold him in high regard – they see him as one of the fathers of white supremacy and the treatment of blacks based on that for a century and decades after.

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            NO!
            “Most” thought the earth was flat at one time.
            “Most” thought the sun revolved around the Earth.
            “Most” believed “safe and effective” for the Covid non-vaccine “vaccine.”
            Consensus does not equal proof.
            And, I will say it a million times to you racists, I DON’T CARE if Jefferson fathered all 6 children. (Even though he most likely didn’t if you actually read the scholar’s report, as opposed to Wikipedia, which is not a credible source, and which has been taken over by Leftists re-writing “history” with the narrative.) Any child born between a slave and a slaveowner is a child of God, created in the image of God, with 99.9% of the same DNA.
            Jefferson wrote of universal truths that all people claim, all over the world. He was a human being, therefore, by definition, imperfect. I can’t wait for all you people who are good with baby-killing to be judged with equal harshness 100 years from now… Barbaric. Blind guides. Know how to virtue signal, but not how to virtue (the important part). Walk a mile in the other man’s shoes. Pull the log out of your own eye, etc.
            And the destruction of Jefferson and Madison isn’t the end – remember the Confederate statues – Washington and Lincoln are coming if this doesn’t stop.
            Do they meet your great and high moral guide, O Wise and Perfect Larry the G?

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Walter – consensus is not proof – I agree but at some point it’s like denying science while at the same time depending on science “consensus” for your own health decisions. You do decide.

            But whether or not he did or did not is not the reason that most people of color do not revere him in the same way that some white folks do.

            They see him as a racist who advocated white supremacy – not as a discarded artifact but a movement (Jim Crow) that continued against blacks for more than a century.

            They will never hold him in high esteem for his views about blacks as a race.

            Re: Washington, Madison, etc.

            I want to ask you if you are following the Montpelier controversy.

            Crickets in BR. What do you think?

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            You know what I think. Ahistorical and immoral and hypocritical.

            Re – “They will never hold him in high esteem for his views about blacks as a race.” You speak for all black people? Did you know the slaves revered Jefferson? That he was an enlightened “master?” This entire thing has been contrived for political power. My ancestors were mistreated. So were yours. If you go back far enough, you will find slavery and likely slave ownership. It is the tragedy of the human condition and is going on today. In fact, your beloved SlowJoe is allowing human trafficking with the open border. The 10 year old abortion story appears to be one of those things – all illegals, and the mother is apparently involved with the rapist, but the “authorities” won’t report cuz the narrative! This abuse often happens in the fatherless families, another area you are hopelessly and always wrong, where the boyfriend of the single Mom abuses the kids (both sexes).
            Larry – you do not read or think anything other than the narrative – I read the cr@p you people on the Left post and they don’t establish what you say.

            Re SCIENCE! – what is the likelihood the weather is right for one day? I will grant you 99.9%, which is way too high. Take 99.9% to the 3650th power – 10 years – far less than what the climate fear porn people are doing – 2.5%. And this assumes perfect knowledge, understanding all factors, etc – they don’t. So, “consensus” is all about the Benjamins, and anybody with a rational, scientifically skeptical brain understands that.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No I do not speak for all people but I am willing to listen to them and try to understand why they feel the way they do.

            I think how black folks feel about the issue ought to be a major aspect because white folks like to talk about slavery at that time in history (i.e. supposedly they were “happy slaves”) versus the treatment of their race in what followed – systemic racism and white supremacy for more than a century.

            On science. You and I make decisions every day on what scientific consensus advises.

            You cite weather.

            Yes. Scientific models – not perfect by a long shot but way the hell better than the Farmers Almanac or your arthritic big toe.

            Every day, we get told what the temperature will be and yep, more often than not, it’s dead on… but it’s “consensus” not “proof”.

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Larry – I listen to people. I “listen” to you. I understand how “black” people may “feel.” And crazy liberals – feelings – feelings are feelings and not necessarily consistent with reality.
            I like the new acronym AWFL – it spells it out pretty descriptively… Affluent White Female Liberals…
            do 99.9% for 40 years – 99.9% to the 14600th power
            .999 ^ 14600 = 4.53031186112e-7
            In other words, move the decimal 7 to the left. To state it in percentages, move it 5
            So, as long as people are wrong, I will try to explain why, gently (usually). But some people – talking to you – are determined to be wrong, no matter how often smacked in the face with truth! I think this is due to different worldviews.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Walter – how would you know how black folks feel about Jefferson?

            Would you want to know?

            Would you care about how they feel?

            Would you think they may feel different from white folks on the issue?

            It’s not about who owned slaves guy. That’s a misconception from folks on the right who clearly do not understand black folks sentiment on the issues.

            Slave owners who also thought slaves were “inferior” to white folks and would never be their equals and advocated policies to keep black folks subordinate to whites – that they pay attention to.

            Just owning slaves is not the issue.

            Jefferson thought black folks were intellectually inferior and should not live free and equal in America along side whites after emancipation. He advocated they be sent back to Africa.

            If you don’t know, ask some black folks how they feel about that idea and how it became Jim Crow after Jefferson died.

          10. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I’ve read history. And reports. Unlike you.
            And I’ve read science. You take quotes from Notes on Virginia. Out of context. If you were observing the slaves, who had no training, would you POSSIBLY, O Great and Perfect Larry the G, have thought they were not intellectually equal? And don’t even bring up The Bell Curve… Different people are different. You weren’t there. You don’t know. It’s POSSIBLE you are wrong. (And you are)

  12. Ruckweiler Avatar
    Ruckweiler

    History is what happened and trying to throw it down Orwell’s memory hole is nonsense. What next, take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial, and change the name of DC? Here in Front Royal there is a memorial to the Confederate dead from this area for whom many of the names have their descendents in this community.

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      You should reread Orwell. Nothing about taking down Confed. iconography is Orwellian. Rewriting history is, and that’s precisely what the Lost Cause tries to do.

      1. Ruckweiler Avatar
        Ruckweiler

        You are missing my point. The statue to which I referred has nothing to do with the “Lost Cause” but is a remembrance of the local dead. Yes, it is all Orwellian as Winston Smith’s job is to send down the “memory hole” those ideas which Big Brother wants eliminated. Judging those people who fought for the Confederacy by today’s ideas forgets what THEY thought at the time. Maybe YOU should re-read “1984.” Wiedersehen.

        1. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          Fair enough about the particular statue you were referring to. As I said in another post, I think the case to keep up memorials to the dead and not iconography to Confed. leadership is far more compelling. But as to 1984, Winston’s occupation is official censor. He literally changes history by rewriting it. Changes names, places, things, outcomes and alliances in wars, etc. Tell me how taking down a statute and putting it in a museum does any of that. It doesn’t. It’s a misapplication of what Orwell was actually critiquing–the wholesale rewriting of history that totalitarian regimes have undertaken in the past– and not a judgment on whom society should and shouldn’t venerate. Get it?

        2. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          Fair enough about the particular statue you were referring to. As I said in another post, I think the case to keep up memorials to the dead and not iconography to Confed. leadership is far more compelling. But as to 1984, Winston’s occupation is official censor. He literally changes history by rewriting it. Changes names, places, things, outcomes and alliances in wars, etc. Tell me how taking down a statute and putting it in a museum does any of that. It doesn’t. It’s a misapplication of what Orwell was actually critiquing–the wholesale rewriting of history that totalitarian regimes have undertaken in the past– and not a judgment on whom society should and shouldn’t venerate. Get it?

    2. WayneS Avatar

      What next, take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial

      Some have already been calling for removal of the Jefferson Memorial:

      https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/506186-jefferson-descendant-take-down-his-memorial/

  13. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    “We are also collaborating on other initiatives relating to Virginia’s culture wars.” Sign me up!

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