Making Stone Soup on Roads

The policies of Gov. Robert F. McDonnell have more than a few contradictions.
A key one is his stubborn refusal to raise taxes while
he also deals with a state highway system that badly needs upgrading. Yet, it so short of money that funds for maintenance are routinely raided from construction funds.

Trying to reconcile this is Sean T. Connaughton, the former chairman of the Prince William County Board of Supervisors, a former head of the U.S. Maritime Administration and now McDonnell’s Secretary
of Transportation.

Connaughton sat down with me last week for an interview that focused on how he expects to make stone soup for the state’s transportation sector with the state running a $4.4 billion budget deficit.
The former Coast Guard and Navy officer insists that he can be done. Money isn’t exactly the main problem, Connaughton told me. Of its $3.8 billion transportation budget, the state still puts about $1 billion a year into infrastructure. “But right now we have money for construction that isn’t moving through the pipeline. So we’re trying to understand why,” he says.
To find out, the McDonnell administration has launched a series of audits of the Virginia Department of Transportation. Besides that, Connaughton says he wants to find out why state and federal transportation planning often runs at cross ends and why it takes so
long to get an improvement completed.

One example is the plan for so-called “hot lanes” on Interstate 395 and 95 south of Washington which offer motorists expedited rush-hour access for extra fees. Conaughton complains that he was hearing about the project eight years ago when he was chairman of the Prince William board “and we still haven’t gotten to a comprehensive agreement.”
Another question mark involves federal money for higher-speed rail. Politicians and the state’s business elite had big plans to get a big chunk of the $8.5 billion offered for passenger rail by President Barack Obama’s American Recovery and Reconstruction Act. They dreamt of
fast passenger trains that would whisk them from downtown Richmond to
Washington in 90 minutes.

But this year, Virginia got a paltry $75 million while North Carolina got $545 million. One reason is that North Carolina has been working on higher speed rail much longer than the Old Dominion and has a more sophisticated program. And even though the two states have a
compact for cooperation on the issue, “they have never met about it,”
says Connaughton who planned to visit Raleigh to get things moving.
What’s more, Connaughton is a big fan of the Virginia Public Private Transportation Act which some claim leads the states in its sophistication. Public-private funding lets the state have its cake and eat it, too, by letting the private sector shoulder the financial burden
for new roads since the state has no available funds and is unwilling to
raise money through taxes.

McDonnell is fast-tracking a plan to build a public-private superhighway along U.S. 460 from Petersburg to Hampton Roads that would be completely private.”We believe with will have a (program) that will move this project forward that will not require any state or federal
financial involvement. They are consulting lawyers right now. We would have essentially a true private toll road,” Connaughton says.
Another scheme to get around revenue woes would be putting toll booths on the southern approaches to Interstates 85 and 95. There’s one big caveat, Connaughton acknowledges. Funds raised from those tollbooths can be used only for maintenance on those federal interstates. But doing so would take the maintenance burden off the state and could speed safety improvements in accident-prone areas of the interstates.

Will Connaughton’s schemes work? He is known for out-of-the-box solutions.
As chairman of the Prince William board, he pushed the county to start building and maintaining its own roads rather than having to deal with the state.
But relying on public-private partnerships doesn’t always work. The Pocahontas Parkway near Richmond was such a deal but demand for the toll road was so weak that the state came close to losing its pristine AAA bond rating, forcing the state to scramble for a new
deal.
There’s only so far Virginia can go without actually paying for its transportation needs.
Peter Galuszka

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102 responses to “Making Stone Soup on Roads”

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Conaughton complains that he was hearing about the project eight years ago when he was chairman of the Prince William board "and we still haven't gotten to a comprehensive agreement."

    Maybe because it is a freaking lousy idea.

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Peter, on this one you sound like Fred Hiatt and Til Hazel.

    First, go back to BR, January 9, 2009 & look at the posting on the huge taxpayer subsidy to overweight (mind you, not illegally overweight) trucks. More than $200 M each year. (About 20% of VDOT's maintenance budget.) Senator Janet Howell has been valiantly trying to fix this problem for years. Shouldn't we get these businesses off the dole before we raise taxes for anyone else?

    Two, Del. Jim LeMunyon introduced H.B. 779, a bill to prioritize transportation projects by ranking them (NoVA only) in terms of traffic congestion reduction. Or should we continue to let real estate lobbyists dictate where tax dollars are spent?

    Three, cut out the waste, fraud and abuse. We are spending more than $5 billion just to bring Dulles Rail to Wiehle Ave in Reston under a NO-BID contract with Bechtel & its partners signed by then Gov. Mark Warner. How much money would be available for other projects had there been a bid?

    The Route 28 corridor upgrade has been a huge success in both Fairfax and Loudoun Counties. In exchange for higher densities and a no-down-zone agreement from both counties, the commercial landowners are paying 75% of the costs of the expanded infrastructure. Why won't that model work across the state?

    On the other hand, Til Hazel and his crowd are trying to persuade state and local governments to cede some of both their tax revenues/taxing authority and land use review powers to a regional authority to juice up real estate development. This makes as much sense as the Commonwealth trying to promote cigarette use to high school students.

    Finally, tolling is clearly the wave of the future. Fairfax County DOT has proposed dynamic pricing for the Dulles Toll Road. There are many problems that must be addressed first, but at least the engineers are thinking.

    TMT

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Peter:

    A fair and balanced post. (As TMT notes, it sounds like MainStream Media.)

    You might have noted that the very same situation exists at the Federal level.

    This is masked by the fact that ‘stimulus’ money has been tossed into the Trust Funds (Highway and Transit) to keep them afloat for a while but there is NO support for a long term “solution” to funding the current Mobility and Access agenda – the White House against raising the gas tax, etc., etc…

    The same problem exists at the Regional scale as well. Note the condition of METRO in the National Capital SubRegion.

    There is a reason for all this ‘gridlock’ and it has nothing to do with ‘politics,’ it has to do with physics, math and macro economics.

    As Professor Risse pointed out at a recent lecture:

    “While ‘the people of the of America’s oil and natural gas industry,’ ‘the Autonomobile industrial complex,’ ‘the transportation profession,’ both major political Clans’ and all Business as Usual spokespersons (TMT's arch foes included) will not admit it:

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    He suggests there are two solutions:

    A deep, long depression, or

    Fundamental Transformation in human settlement patterns.

    More and more agree.

    Observer

  4. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    TMT

    Til Hazel? I'm checking with my lawyer to see if this is grounds for libel!

    PG

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    One note on TMT’s comment:

    The Route 28 Corridor improvements are NOT a good role model.

    I recall Professor Risse pointing out in the early 90s (?) that in 1984 (?) he and others on the Fairfax Chamber of Commerce Transportation Committee pointed out that the traffic generated by the proposed new zoning in the route 28 Corridor would generate demand for 16 lanes of traffic and huge interchanges while the money generated by the tax district would pay for only 6 lanes and small interchanges.

    You might check out how much public money has been plowed into the Route 28 fund and how many additional changes in the zoning have been ‘accommodated.’

    Have you tried to drive down Route 28 at 3:30 to 5:30 recently? When the last two stop lights are removed between Toll Road and I-66, then I-66 will grind to a halt, in spite of the recent and continuing widening.

    TMT, if you dig into it you will find as many problems on Route 28 as there are in Tysons Corner and for the same reasons.

    Autonomobiles will not provide Mobility and Access for large Urban agglomerations.

    On Janet Howell, you are absolutely right.

    As I recall Joe Stowers and Professor Risse while a resident of Reston urged Sen. Howell to take on taxing trucks related to the damage they cause when she first ran for office.

    All part of a fair and equitable allocation of locations variable costs.

    Observer

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Peter – perhaps the comparison was a bit harsh — but it did get your attention.

    What do we get for the dollars spent? What are the alternatives? Who benefits? Who pays?

    I'm never troubled by anyone trying to advance his/her own self-interests. The problem, IMO, is that too often private parties try to claim public interest benefit for something that chiefly benefits themselves. While reasonable people can fairly disagree as to what is in the public interest, the media should be helping to question those claims from everyone. However, too many members of the media don't do that well because they have a single view of the public interest. The media should return to being skeptical of, or at least, testing, all arguments and positions.

    TMT

  7. Larry G Avatar

    Well… I give McDonnell and Connaughton some credit for looking first in the existing transportation cupboard but methinks it's just as bare as it was before.

    it's hard to believe that an agency with a 3 billion dollar budget is 'tapped out' but it is indeed the truth because despite the conventional wisdom that roads are paid for when they are initially built – we should know that that is no more true than any of us who owns homes who would have been foolish enough to think that the initial cost of the house was all we signed up for in the way of costs.

    One of the problems in Va is that we add 400 miles a year to a state system that accepts what are essentially private subdivision roads for state responsibility that are while "in theory" open to the public – they won't get you from point A to point B in most cases and even if they do – the folks that live there don't want you to.

    So they're really not public roads and yet the public pays for them.

    The guy who lives in an apt or condo and drives and pays gas taxes, he doesn't get his parking lot paved or plowed when it snows. Nope, it's incorporated into his rent.

    But the guy who lives in a subdivision and pays gas taxes, his taxes go to fix/maintain his subdivision road.

    when you add 400 miles a year of this kind of road.. more and more gas taxes get spent in that way.

    In 46 other states, if you live in a subdivision, you, not the state, is responsible for your roads and yor gas taxes go towards county/state roads.

    In Va, the idea of the county taking responsibility for county roads is almost heretical … though.

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    finally, tolling is clearly the wave of the future.

    It is s dumb and costly idea. it has zero redeeming values except it makes it look as if you are not raising the gas tax.

    If this is the wave of the future, then it is time to move to higher ground.

    This is going to make New Coke look like a marketing success.

    RH

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    But the guy who lives in a subdivision and pays gas taxes, his taxes go to fix/maintain his subdivision road.

    that is not a problem of the gas tax. Anyway, after you fix this problem you still need to fix (raise) the gas tax.

    RH

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    too often private parties try to claim public interest benefit for something that chiefly benefits themselves.

    Bingo.

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    Funny, the Texas transportation study has repeatedly pointed out that those areas that spend the most see the slowest increase in congestion.

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    Funny, the Texas transportation study has repeatedly pointed out that those areas that spend the most see the slowest increase in congestion.

    That is not ‘funny’ at all, it is correct and it is exactly what the data from the Texas Transportation Institute has shown since 1987.

    It must be assumed that Anon 1:39 hopes to profit from Business as Usual.

    BJC

  13. Larry G Avatar

    " But the guy who lives in a subdivision and pays gas taxes, his taxes go to fix/maintain his subdivision road.

    that is not a problem of the gas tax. Anyway, after you fix this problem you still need to fix (raise) the gas tax."

    fix this problem?

    ha ha ha ha ha rots of ruck

    If you raise the gas tax – the same cast of characters, including developers will continue business as usual where instead of spending the money to reduce congestion, it gets spent to fatten the pockets of those who can figure out how to get their hands on it.

    the public has a simple solution. starve the beast. do not feed it.

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The gas tax is the ONLY tax that charges by weight, milage, speed, and driving habits.

    You also need another tax to support roads that comes from property owners independent of the amount of use they create.

    If you are saying that it is politically impossible to fix except by a worse and less complete solution (tolls), then we deserve what we get.

    It is the stupidest idea I ever heard of.

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "the public has a simple solution. starve the beast. do not feed it."

    That is not a solution. The public has to drive on those roads. Roads which are every day loooking a lot more like stone soup.

    The public is paying for the legislatures stupidity in wasted gas and broken axles and bruised tires.

    If someone makes money because we have roads and transportation, since when did that become a bad thing?

    RH

  16. Larry G Avatar

    " The public is paying for the legislatures stupidity in wasted gas and broken axles and bruised tires"

    naw.. this is a jobs program for those who sell replacement parts and repairs, no?

    Other states – 46 of them by the way – don't have their DOTs "do" subdivision streets and county roads and as a result are NOT adding 400 miles of new roads to maintain every year and do not have developers trying to figure out how to get their hands on state money for their local development projects.

    We won't "fix" the problem in Va by just increasing the gas tax – we'll just continue practices that are at the heart as to why we're in trouble with funding right now.

    People LIKE the idea of the state being responsible for their subdivision roads and the counties LIKE the State being responsible for their county roads – but it is one of the main reasons that the State has no money for state roads.

    Even worse, in the other 46 other states, most of them have a HIGHER gas tax AND it is INDEXED and so they DO have money for high priority projects whereas in Va – we are left with one option – tolls.

  17. Groveton Avatar

    I drive Rt 28 on a regular basis. Unfortunately, I also drive in many other areas of NoVA. The Rt 28 program has been a great success regardless of what Dr Risse may have predicted.

    Rt 66, on the other hand, has been an epic disaster forever. That road has now achieved Los Angeles class fiasco status whereby it can come to a snarled stop at any time of any day of the week.

    Good to hear Janet Howell is trying to do something useful. That makes one thing she's tried to get right. Of course, she has failed to actually get anything done but I'll grant her one good idea in the 19 years she's been in the Virginia Senate. I am very hopeful that the Republicans will find a decent candidate to run against her in 2011. However, I have started insisting on an elementary level math test for all candidates for office in Virginia – especially Republicans (see comments below). Hopefully, the Republicans can buck their recent trend and find a decent candidate who can perform integer level math.

    Virginia's transportation problem is very easy to understand. We have frozen the gas tax (in cents / gallon) since 1986. Meanwhile, the costs of everything to do with road construction and maintenance have inflated greatly in those 24 years. A kid with a C average in math from back at Groveton High School could have predicted this problem in 1986. Unfortunately, both McDonnell and Connaughton went to toffy private high schools where math was apparently not a point of focus. Therefore, they are both flummoxed by the issue. "We'll sell the liquor stores to pay for the roads." says McDonnell. I wonder what he plans once the liquor stores are sold and the roads need continued maintenance and construction?

    Peter is completely right. This problem will not go away until we start paying the costs of the transportation system we need. And that won't happen with a gas tax frozen at 1986 levels.

    Being a civic minded person I will try to find some of the freshman level math teachers from Groveton. Perhaps one of them would be willing to go down to Richmond once and week and give Gov. McDonnell and Mr. Connaughton remedial math lessons. They can start with a word problem – "If inflation averaged 5% for the last 24 years and a candy bar cost a quarter in 1986, what would it cost today?". Best of luck, boys. Pencils down in 30 minutes on this one.

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    projects whereas in Va – we are left with one option – tolls.

    or we could get smart like other people and index.

    RH

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    A kid with a C average in math from back at Groveton High School could have predicted this problem in 1986. Unfortunately, both McDonnell and Connaughton went to toffy private high schools where math was apparently not a point of focus.

    guffaw, guffaw.

    Good one.

    it really is that simple.
    Larry has a point about subdivisions, but it is small potatoes compared to 28 years of neglect on the gas tax.

    Whatever we do will cost what it costs unless we stupidly decide to pay for it with tolls, in which case it will cost more.

    RH

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    $0.81 ????

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – you make a reasonable argument on the gas tax — but you also need to address Larry's objection, IMO.

    "If you raise the gas tax – the same cast of characters, including developers will continue business as usual where instead of spending the money to reduce congestion, it gets spent to fatten the pockets of those who can figure out how to get their hands on it."

    More money without fundamental reform equals more of the same. We have many of our transportation problems today because we let heavy trucks be subsidized; we let lobbyists, rather than engineers, determine which projects we fund; we left lobbyists persuade government officials to sign no-bid contracts; we let local officials make land use decisions, while requiring VDOT to maintain the roads; we tolerate and fund WMATA's incompetence; etc. Unless these practices change, adding more money will not produce better results.

    If fundamental changes were to occur, adding money would likely produce better results. Give a drunk more money and he will continue to drink, just more and more often.

    TMT

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Amazingly, most of the commentors ignored the following and continue to chase their tails arguing minor rabbit trials:

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    BJC

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton said:

    “I drive Rt 28 on a regular basis.”

    What part of Route 28? The part of Route 28 that provides access to Affordable but NOT Accessible housing in the outer Radius Bands via I-66 is already congested and will only get worse.

    “The Rt 28 program has been a great success…”

    On what basis?

    In responding, please take into consideration that there are thousands of acres of land that is planned and zoned for intensive development under the Route 28 tax district scheme is still vacant.

    When this land is developed the 6 and 8 lane sections of Route 28 with small interchanges will be swamped.

    The planned and zoned land uses in the corridor will generate two to three times the traffic that the Route 28 tax district was designed to pay for. Back in the day, ‘the answer’ was that when the traffic gets so bad there will be support for a light rail from Manassas to Great Falls.

    How likely is that to happen?

    As BJC noted, all this talk ignores that fact that:

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    TMT is on the right track but still thinks that somehow, Autonomobiles can provide Mobility and Access in a large Urban agglomeration.

    “Virginia's transportation problem is very easy to understand. We have frozen the gas tax (in cents / gallon) since 1986.”

    It is easy to understand but a clear understanding has NOTHING to do with finding ways to pay for ‘improvements’ that will only make the problem worse.

    Observer

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton said:

    “I drive Rt 28 on a regular basis.”

    What part of Route 28? The part of Route 28 that provides access to Affordable but NOT Accessible housing in the outer Radius Bands via I-66 is already congested and will only get worse.

    “The Rt 28 program has been a great success…”

    On what basis?

    In responding, please take into consideration that there are thousands of acres of land that is planned and zoned for intensive development under the Route 28 tax district scheme is still vacant.

    When this land is developed the 6 and 8 lane sections of Route 28 with small interchanges will be swamped.

    The planned and zoned land uses in the corridor will generate two to three times the traffic that the Route 28 tax district was designed to pay for. Back in the day, ‘the answer’ was that when the traffic gets so bad there will be support for a light rail from Manassas to Great Falls.

    How likely is that to happen?

    As BJC noted, all this talk ignores that fact that:

    “There is a growing consensus that every proposed transportation plan could be fully funded and traffic congestion would just continue to get worse as it has for the past 40 years.”

    TMT is on the right track but still thinks that somehow, Autonomobiles can provide Mobility and Access in a large Urban agglomeration.

    “Virginia's transportation problem is very easy to understand. We have frozen the gas tax (in cents / gallon) since 1986.”

    It is easy to understand but a clear understanding has NOTHING to do with finding ways to pay for ‘improvements’ that will only make the problem worse.

    Observer

  25. Larry G Avatar

    indexing would be a reasonable start but I doubt very seriously that McDonnell and the RoVa GA would go along.

    The thing about Conaughton is ( believe) that he's one of these "let's get everything on the table including revenues" type guy.

    It'll be interesting to see if any reports and recommendations that come from his agency actually say the "T" word.

    The fundamental problem in Virginia is not the subdivisions – although they are indicative of a deeper problem and that is that the gas tax comes back to the locality in the form of a 6-year plan and across the width and breadth of Virginia and as far back as the Byrd era – it's been a time-honored practice for local politicians to get cozy with developers to decide how best to use that money and over and over they choose development… over transportation utility and congestion reduction.

    Only since the demise of the 6yr plan as a reliable cash cow have localities been exploring other options such as special transportation districts and the like.

    and that's the reason why reform is needed before we re-fund from an increased gas tax.

    If we raise the gas tax we're going to go right back to the development community determining how a locality 6-yr money should be spent.

    This goes back to the Dillon Rule that Groveton chafs at.

    The gas tax right now is a very clever shell game – where local citizens are taxed for fuel.. it is sent to Richmond.. and then it comes back as a slush fund that developers can influence and co-opt for private gain.

    we need to fix it but I'm worried about the comment I heard that Conaughton never met a developer he did not like or something to that effect.

  26. Groveton Avatar

    TMT –

    Oh, I agree with you and LarryG on the need for reform beyond just raising the gas tax. However, I am always struck by the Republicans' willingness to play ostrich with the gas tax point. Here's what I'd like to hear from one of McDonnell's Mutants:

    "I am an anti-tax Republican. Therefore, I support the continued freeze of the gas tax at 1986 "per gallon" levels. I attended math class in high school so I know that the gas tax freeze I support causes financial problems for teh state. Notably, the gas tax has not kept up with the inflation in costs associated with the maintenenace and construction of roads. Therefore, our roads pretty much suck in much of the state and traffic just gets worse and worse. Meanwhile, I keep trying to convince companies to relocate here but that's another story. I have a sophisticated plan to address the transportation issue. First, I'll sell the liquor stores to private companies and use the money to patch up the roads. Then, I'll sell the roads to private companies who will charge you to drive on the roads. Some might ask why I don't just index the gas tax to inflation. I could accurately argue that wouldn't be a tax hike in real terms but I slept through college economics so I don't really understand what "real terms" means. I spent most of my time in college writing theses about fornicators so I didn't have a lot of time for economics. But that's another story too. Anyways, if I indexed the gas tax to inflation I couldn't pander to the 'T'aint gonna pay fer no Nover roads' voters. Ooops … was that my outside voice or my inside voice?".

    For the record, I still think McDonnell is far out-performing Tim "asleep at the wheel" Kaine and Mark "if I am talking I am lying" Warner.

    Back to the point (sort of). Municipalities should take responsibility for their own roads. That should start with a constitutional amendment authorizing them to levy taxes for the roads and allowing them to keep and spend the monies raised in any way they see fit (i.e. with no Richmond based intrusion). I saw what Tim "Look at Me! I'm invisible" Kaine tried to do with the education funding formula. Richmond cannot be trusted. If they want the localities to run their local roads they need to swear off the matter entirely. That would be a first step in dilluting Dillon's Rule and would be just fine by me.

  27. Groveton Avatar

    Well, it seems that McDonnell got Northrop Grumman into NoVa. Good for him. I was afriad that NG might end up in Maryland after they saw NoVa traffic. However, the must have seen Maryland driving too. Does Maryland require any kind of test whatsoever in order to get a driver's license?

    It'll be interesting to hear the anti-McDonnell crowd try to spin this one. I am guessing the VITA contract settlement will be called a pay off.

  28. Larry G Avatar

    re: traffic and congestion that drives off business prospects.

    No one has every convinced me that there is data that proves that there is systemic business loss due to congestion much less point out "better" places that these businesses flee to.

    There is some anecdotal examples but no clear and convincing trend case for entire cities and regions

    there is no top 10 most congested cities with corresponding charts for proportional regional business losses that I've seen.

    this is just more road-building drum beating by developers.

    if there was anything to this at all – you would not be offering one road at a time to relieve local congestion but instead looking at the top ranked projects that would reduce congestion in the region.

  29. Larry G Avatar

    not sure where to put this but thought the the Risse supporters and perhaps others might find it useful:

    "Cities Do It Better"

    " What makes dense megacities like New York so successful? One reason is that urban scale and density strengthen markets by bringing together an abundance of buyers and sellers in an information-rich setting."

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/cities-do-it-better/

  30. Groveton Avatar

    "No one has every convinced me that there is data that proves that there is systemic business loss due to congestion much less point out "better" places that these businesses flee to.".

    Ah, the old data argument.

    I've been part of plenty of decisions as to where we would locate people. We assess quality of life. Not because we're good guys but because we can pay less for the same level of talent if we hire where people want to live.

    Traffic congestion isn't #1 on the list but it is on the list. People don't want to live in places with a reputation for endless traffic jams. Companies will not open new, white collar operations in Los Angeles for just that reason.

    I know a company which just made a Virginia vs Texas location decision. Not a corporate headquarters but about 1,000 high quality jobs. They chose Texas. Good airport, low taxes, decent schools, good transportation system (i.e. roads). They figured the sum of the QoL factors meant they could hire the same level of talent in Texas for less money than in Virginia. Operations like the one I described have to run for many years before they make a lot of economuic sense. Just looking at instantaneous salary data isn't good enough. You have to assess the balance of talent and cost. And roads are a factor in that calculation.

  31. Larry G Avatar

    well.. it's not a 'data' argument.. it's a let's see something besides anecdotal stuff.

    If congestion was the business killer that is claimed.. we'd have a list of cities whose congestion clearly harmed them economically.

    here's the list:

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/24/traffic-congested-cities-lifestyle-real-estate_congested_cities_full-list.html

    L.A., NY, Chicago, Dallas, Washington, etc, etc, etc

    it read's like a who's who's of the most vibrant cities in America not a list of damaged goods.

    I don't doubt that qof is an important consideration but you know – to be perfectly honest here – 50 mile commutes from work to "quality-of-life" is part of that calculation as every major city in the US has a beltway and spur roads off into the burbs… that good old "sprawl" – right?

    so Groveton.. do those companies consider the burbs 50 miles away as quality-of-life indicators?

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – I think you make some reasonable arguments on looking at increasing the gas tax above 1986 levels if we want progress on transportation. But given the choice of living with what we have or paying more for the benefit of the developers and road-building industries, I'll stick with what we have today thank you. I'm just sick and tired of being forced to subsidize some other person's business and so are many others.

    We will also see more toll roads and other forms of congestion pricing in NoVA. These types of pricing not only raise revenues, but they also function to limit traffic. There are big problems with cut-through traffic abandoning the tolled roadways. Those need to be addressed and probably should serve as a barrier to dynamic or so-called "open road" pricing. But tolling also pushes travel from the peak. It moves traffic to less congested periods. It encourages businesses to give more employees more freedom to work earlier or work later. We will see more and more of it, IMO.

    TMT

  33. Groveton Avatar

    so Groveton.. do those companies consider the burbs 50 miles away as quality-of-life indicators?

    No. At least, not in my experience. They create an age – educational demographic map of the city. You need to be close enough to young people although they generally will tolerate 10+ mile commutes. Then you need to be nearby neighborhoods with good houses and good schools. And an airport, always an airport.

    For us, Arlington – particularly the Wilson Blvd Corredor is a good location for the young technically skilled people we want to hire. Twenty-somethings, good education, creative, not bringing home the big salaries. Just what you want at the bottom of the pyramid. The middle layer. Thirty-somethings. They are skilled, married, make good scratch. One good thirtysomethimg is worth 10 average twenty-somethings. What do they want (beyond money, which they worship). They want upscale houses, good schools, proximity to recreation, especially swim and tennis clubs. Location is driven by the stay at home spouse in service to the kids. Maybe Chesterbrook in McLean. Then come the executives. Fourty to Fifty five. In the end, they call the shots. Big houses, close to office which is close to airport.

    So, we have lots of young fodder in Arlington to start at the bottom of the pyrmid. Plenty will quit, get fired, go back to school. The trick is a plentiful supply. Next level, more permanance. Married with kids. Cute litte house, schools. They live there and commute to work for 10 years. Gotta keep them. Attrition around 6% per year. Then, the big whigs.

    Where do I locate my office?

    Reston.

    Long way from Arlington but you're going against traffic. Every other week we have a corporate blow out in some Arlington bar just to build morale. The bad ones quit, the good ones stay on the payroll and move to Chesterbrook / McLean. Spouses are happy. Working executives work all the time anyway. Executives hit Great Falls, McLean, Oakton. Big houses, good schools, plenty of country clubs. Short ride to work. Convienient to airport.

    Tyson's would have been a better choice than Reston except for the traffic. Better to lose some twenty-somthings making them drive out to Reston than lose thirtythings who have to get into and out of their cars all day long just to get around.

    As for 50 mile commuters – who would be dumb enough to do that? We got the right house for the right age. Condos in Arlington for the 20s, small houses in Arlington and Chesterbrook for the 30s, Places in McLean and the lower end of Great Falls for the 40s. And big houses in Great Falls, McLean and Oakton for the 50s.

    Secretaries from Pimmit Hills or Sterling.

    Why is anybody commuting 50 miles?

  34. Larry G Avatar

    " Why is anybody commuting 50 miles?"

    It's a demographic you did not cover in your otherwise excellent commentary on what businesses look for.

    It's also not unique to the Wash Metro Area but instead commonplace in every major urban area in the country – agree?

    Most companies more than likely have 50-mile commuters on their staffs – and they may be a key part of that talented labor pool that businesses seek.

    are the 50 mile commuters talented workers making dumb decisions?

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "It's also not unique to the Wash Metro Area but instead commonplace in every major urban area in the country – agree?"

    Larry, we have been through this and threough this and you still won't agreee that the numbers show that this is NOT commonplace. The average commute is only 23 or 27 minutes.

    A relatively few people commute such distances and most of them stop after a year or two.

    In my area, I knwo a couple of people that do it, because they bought their retirement home shortly before they retired, for example. And those people don't go in every day.

    People that do, have good and sufficient reasons to, until they can get their situztion changed.

    Get this through your head.

    50 mile commuters are NOT the problem.

    RH

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton:

    Nice to see this place injected with a dose of reality.

    Pretty much the same around offices I have been posted.

    RH

  37. Larry G Avatar

    the "average" commute is an inaccurate picture.

    A more accurate picture is the MEDIAN commute ALONG with a histogram showing the spread.

    How many 50 mile commuters are there in the Wash DC area ?

    Go stand on I-95 in Prince William in the morning and watch what VDOT measures to be about 200,000 cars a day.

    50-mile commutes are COMMON if your brain accepts the fact that a high percentage of that traffic – more than 50,000 per day are, in fact, 50 mile+ commuters.

    not only that – they are commuting at peak hour overwhelming the capacity of the road and resulting congestion is very apparent.

    Why would someone be vociferously opposed to HOT Lane congestion pricing if there was not a problem anyhow?

    here's some data relevant to the Wash Metro Area:

    " The average one-way commute distance was 36.3 miles. The average one-way commute time was
    63 minutes."

    http://www.mwcog.org/commuter2/pdf/FY09%20Placement%20Rate%20Survey%20FINAL%20Report%20051909.pdf

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    One of the biggest causes of Virginia's traffic problems is the long-time disconnection between land use and transportation. Having VDOT control roads and counties and cities control land use is a recipe for disaster.

    For example, Fairfax County has regularly approved much more development than can be handled by the transportation network, including transit. Then, politicians, like Gerry Connolly, have tried to blame VDOT and the General Assembly. And, of course, Judge Dillon.

    This was one issue where Tim Kaine got it right. The 527 process is good and has the potential to be extremely helpful to existing residents and businesses. The developer community is finally starting to realize that this statute is ending business as usual in the Commonwealth.

    Now the General Assembly should enact legislation that forces counties, just like cities and towns, to operate their own streets and roads, leaving state and federal highways to VDOT.

    TMT

  39. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    The goal is to try to avoid needing 50 mile commutes for the employees by locating the offices in places much closer to the pools of workers.

    Also, the 50 mile commuter tends to be life event driven. Singles and DINKs (Double Income No Kids) tend to live close in to the city. Once the couple starts having children, things change. The kids need additional bedrooms, schools become an issue and, most importantly, one spouse often stops working or substantially reuces his / her workload. This is generally when the 50 mile commuters are born.

    Industries with generally higher margins understand that employee retention is a key to success. So, more and more, they are locating their operations in places which are attractive to people as they progress through their careers and move from singles to DINKs to parents and (more and more) to empty nesters. Interestingly, the empty nesters tend to look like rich singles. Whereas the singles may be living in condos in Ballston the empty nesters like townhomes in Old Town or Georgetown.

    One trend to watch – the idea of locating everybody in a given city inside one campus or building is being challenged. Improvements in office-based technology is causing companies to consider setting up a series of locations around a city. You certainly see that with Northrop Grumman in NoVa. However, the work at home technology is a lot less mature from a price / performance perspective. Unfortunately, this "series of offices in a given metro area idea" tends to increase suburban spread (although it may reduce commuting). for example, I could easily understand a company locating a portion of their Metro DC operations in Fredricksburg. There is a good labor pool, talented people want to live there, now parents find it particularly attractive. Yet, one of the main attractions of moving further from the city center is the lower cost of land / housing. Since the land / housing costs less the people buy more of it. If a company insisted on a single headquartes building in Rosslyn a lot of employees would refuse the long commutes and live somewhat frugally in Arlington. If the same company creates a ring of offices (connected electronically) the outlying offices would house employees who could (and will) buy larger houses on larger lots.

    Work at home is a final point. It seems so seductive. No commute, more time with the spouse and kids, work in your basement office while wearing your pajamas and bunny slippers all day. Then, someone in HQ wonders why the company needs an American employee who never physically goes to work when an Irish or Indian employee would so the same job for a much lower cost.

    No easy answers.

  40. Groveton Avatar

    "For example, Fairfax County has regularly approved much more development than can be handled by the transportation network, including transit. Then, politicians, like Gerry Connolly, have tried to blame VDOT and the General Assembly. And, of course, Judge Dillon.".

    Wrong.

    All of that develoment brings in taxpayers who contribute money via income taxes, sales taxes, real estate taxes, etc.

    However, the "'T'aint gonna pay fer no Nover roads" crowd won't comit the additional money raised by the people living in that development to the transportation system.

    Some guy paying $750,000 for a new home in Fairfax is paying way, way more than his fair share of total taxes.

    Sorry TMT but your argument just doesn't pass the sniff test.

  41. Larry G Avatar

    " Yet, one of the main attractions of moving further from the city center is the lower cost of land / housing. Since the land / housing costs less the people buy more of it. If a company insisted on a single headquartes building in Rosslyn a lot of employees would refuse the long commutes and live somewhat frugally in Arlington. If the same company creates a ring of offices (connected electronically) the outlying offices would house employees who could (and will) buy larger houses on larger lots."

    there are a bunch of implications in this statement and apparent contradictions.

    While we do have our share of large-lot NoVa commuters, by far – the vast, vast majority of our NoVa commuters live in subdivisions.. many of the along the lines of 1/4 or 1/3 acre..water & sewer (not well/septic) and local schools, libraries, amenities, etc.

    The difference is.. they get that house for less than 300K down here and up there, an equivalent situation is going to be double that – right?

    the problem with NoVa companies locating in Fredericksburg is that in doing so – they automatically reduce their available labor pool and the optimal location for labor pools in right smack in the center of a large and diverse urban area – congestion be hanged… in many cases.

    So they'd rather be in central NoVa attracting the lions share of talent from a 360 degree geography ..including those who would commute some distance if it works for them and the company.

    Fredericksburg has tried everything but stand on it's head and whistle Dixie to get major employers to locate here and they had two successes. Geico and Capital One and Cap One left.. and never heard why but such an "exit" interview would be valuable I'm sure.

    The last time a Federal Agency tried to relocate down this way, a survey of their employees indicated a loss exceeding 50% so they changed their mind….

    Mr. Risse and his supporters here seem to think that all we need to do is to "inform" people of the tradeoffs.

    I think they're already informed and made their decisions… an that much more than an information campaign would be necessary to change the trajectory.

    "more places" is similarly a bit of a pipe dream .. again an idea..with no realistic way of implementing….

  42. Groveton Avatar

    "the problem with NoVa companies locating in Fredericksburg is that in doing so – they automatically reduce their available labor pool and the optimal location for labor pools in right smack in the center of a large and diverse urban area – congestion be hanged… in many cases.".

    You should be trying to get them to locate part of their operations in Fredricksburg – not all of their operations. You should offer them free consulting as to how they can network their Fredricksburg location into their core NoVa locations. I am sure you can find some civic minded retired technology executive who would be willing to do this.

    The labor pool of talent in core NoVa is being depleted. That's driving up prices which attracts more people to core NoVa which increases congestion. Five years ago – there would have been little tobe done about that. Now, the price / performance of industrial grade collaboration has improved so much that companies can exploit smaller labor pools effectively. Annapolis is loaded with talent. Fredricksburg too. Both locations are close enough for face-to-face meeting in a central location when necessary.

    I would forget about the government agencies. They are in the technology stone age (give or take the highly classified agencies).

    Go after the government contractors. Show them how to work on a slightly distributed basis. They don't need to go to India or even Texas to get better prices. But they do have to get out of core NoVa.

    You guys have the right idea but the wrong approach. Grab pieces and prove the pieces will work.

    If you want to get really sophisticated – work with Verizon or AT&T and bring a boatload of bandwidth to an office park. Make sure every building can get sufficient bandwidth for full, symmetrical video conferenceing from desktops to phonetops to offices to conference rooms.

    Corporate welfare? Maybe. However, when 47% of Americans pay no taxes then the competition for the 53% who do pay will intensify. New York and California's losses need to be Virginia's gains. Sorry, but the failed experiments in high tax socialism in CA and NY are causing "the producers" (those in the 53%) to flee while "the takers" (those in the 47%) remain. As a point of interest, the terms "producer" and "taker" are in common usage today in California.

    As a final note, one can only hope that Dear Leader and Nancy Nutjob are thwarted in their effort to make the entire country into the failed NY / CA mode.

  43. Larry G Avatar

    Geico has high-speed broadband so I assume the locals know it's importance in attracting industry.

    but speaking of California and taxes and fiscal responsibility, I ran across this and wondered about your opinion:

    " Federal Spending by State Per Dollar of Federal Taxes
    Fiscal Year 2004"

    California – .79
    Virginia – 1.66

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr139.pdf page 2

    so Groveton.. Virginia gets TWICE as much as California in Federal Spending…???

    it's old data 2004… but it certainly offers an additional perspective that "dear leader" apparently had nothing to do with – per the usual blind-eye double standard used when judging this guy with his predecessors…

    let me guess.. in 2004.. we all KNEW that Bush was going to be replaced by Obama so we got Barney Frank, Cris Dodd and Nancy to start shifting great pots of Fed dollars away from California and to NoVa …and that's why California is now going broke and NoVa is fat and sassy?

    GAZOOKS!

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – Jerry Gordon, head of the Economic Development Authority for Fairfax County, argues that very few households pay their costs in real estate and other local taxes. This is especially true if there any children in public schools.

    For FY 2010, Fairfax County Public Schools spent an average of $12,898 per student. About 75% of those costs are paid by local taxpayers, read real estate taxes. So it costs about $9670 plus in real estate taxes per student in Fairfax County. How many households moving into the county pay real estate taxes of at least $9670? And that doesn't include other county services (fire, polices, libraries, parks, social services, administration).

    So a person buying a $750,000 house (assuming it's assessed at 100% of value) will pay $8175 in Fairfax County real estate taxes.

    Now if the new owner(s) has no children in school, the answer might be different. But we have around 170,000 children in public schools. The county loses money on many new residents.

    Fairfax County gets about 20 cents per dollar back for any taxes sent to Richmond.

    I think I do more than pass the sniff test.

    TMT

  45. Groveton Avatar

    TMT –

    You have forgotten a few taxes. Like income, sales, gas, drivers license fees, etc. You have fallen into the classic politican's trap. They all plead poverty to the extreme. To hear them tell it, government loses money on virtually every taxpayer. That's just not true. Various governmental entities slice and dice their budgets to claim poverty. However, in aggregate, a person working to afford a $750,000 house is paying more in total taxes than he or she is consuming in total services.

    Your education point also misses a trick. Go to Flint Hill or Gonzaga or Little Langley and tell me where the parents of the children in those private schools live. Just because a $750,000 house has 4 bedrooms doesn't mean there are 3 kids in the local public school system.

    Your "no growth" argument is fundamentally that virtually no family makes enough money (and pays enough taxes) to be accretive. If that's true then we are all really screwed. Like nationally bankrupt. Not nationally bankrupt in 20 years as Jim "Boomergeddon" Bacon says but now, right freakin' now.

    Do you really believe that?

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Wrong house wrong location:

    "The oil and jobs boom in North Dakota is creating a new problem – a temporary shortage of housing for all of the workers"…

    RH

  47. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Just because a $750,000 house has 4 bedrooms doesn't mean there are 3 kids in the local public school system.

    In fact, just the opposite. If I count the six homes nearest me there are 28 bedrooms and zero children.

    Go figure. My wife and I have an excuse: we grew into this situation: all the others were constructed by the owners.

    it is one redason the county loves farms: they pay twice as much in taxes as they use in services.

    RH

  48. Larry G Avatar

    Spotsylvania's budget is piddling compared to Fairax and other NoVA jurisdictions but I'm posting it here to to give folks an appreciation for what proportion of our budget (our taxes) go to education:

    Total Operating Expenditures = $378,222,929

    Total School Expenditures=
    $268,000,000

    http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/emplibrary/Budget/Annual_budgets/FY2010/FY%202010%20Budget%20Highlights.pdf

    the per pupil funding is 10K

    think about how many people in Spotsylvania pay 10K a year in taxes…

    almost none.

    the average is about $1800

    where does the remaining 8K per kid come from?

    Now you know why Spotsylvania does not like by-right growth and has proffers exceeding 30K per home.

    The more kids we get – the higher our taxes – no way around it.

    Every new NoVa commuter who lives here costs the county taxpayers 8K per kid.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't hate kids nor do I advocate not giving them a good education.

    But I do point out this little game that the localities play in trying to evade the growth because of the inevitable tax increases required.

    We'd much, much rather NoVa keeps all of it's workers and their kids…

    So we actually deserve a subsidy from Fairfax to help educate their workers kids, eh?

  49. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    "So we actually deserve a subsidy from Fairfax to help educate their workers kids, eh?"

    Hmm…..

    2001 Student enrollment 20000
    2010 Student enrollment 24000
    20 percent increase

    2001 Total staff 2700
    2010 Total staff 3200
    18.5 percent increase

    2001 Instruction costs 98mil
    2010 Instruction costs 174mil
    77 percent increase

    2001 budget 140 mil
    2010 budget 260 mil
    86 percent increase

  50. Groveton Avatar

    Let's rough out the taxes paid by an average Spotsy resident.

    The per capita income in Spotsy is $21,458 (2008 data).

    That generates $1,546 in federal taxes.

    That generates $751.03 in state taxes (assuming 3.5% tax rate).

    The average commute is 36 miles each way or 72 miles / day *250 days = 18,000 miles / year. Average gas milage is 22 miles per gallon. That's 818 gallons at 19.6 cents per gallon or $160 in gas tax on $2,863 in gas purchases at $3.50 per gallon.

    After paying federal and state taxes and buying gasoline the average Spotsy resident has $16,297. If they own a $150,000 house, they will pay about $1,500 in real estate taxes. That leaves $14,729 to spend.

    That spending will generate a weighted average sales tax of, let's say, 3.5%. That's $515 in sales taxes.

    So, how much has our average, single Spotsy resident paid in taxes?

    $2,792.

    Adding a spouse roughly doubles the tax to $5,944. Not even enough for 1 kid to attend school and that's all the major taxes.

    Now, let's see where one of those Northrop Grumman executives comes out. They make $300,000 per year.

    That generates $82,262 in federal taxes.

    That generates $17,250.00 in state taxes (assuming 5.5% tax rate).

    The average commute is 36 miles each way or 72 miles / day *250 days = 18,000 miles / year. Average gas milage is 22 miles per gallon. That's 818 gallons at 19.6 cents per gallon or $160 in gas tax on $2,863 in gas purchases at $3.50 per gallon.

    After paying federal and state taxes and buying gasoline the average Spotsy NG exec has $200,328. If they own a $750,000 house, they will pay about $7,500 in real estate taxes. That leaves $192,828 to spend. Let's say they spend $150,000 and save $42,828.

    That spending will generate a weighted average sales tax of, let's say, 4.5%. That's $6,750 in sales taxes.

    So, how much has our average, single Spotsy NG executive paid in taxes?

    $113,922. Or, 41X more than the average Spotsy resident.

    Adding a spouse roughly doubles the tax to $227,844.

    The state and local take from this Spotsy NG executive couple is – $63,320.

    They can apply $10,000 toward their own state and local costs. Educate 3 of their own kids at $10,000 each and still have $23,320 left. That means they can subsidize the education of two average Spotsy families with 3 kids each.

    You begining to get this math there LarryG?

    All taxpayers are not created equal. All development is not created equal. The NoVa commuters living in the McMansions you so loathe in your town are keeping you and many others economically afloat.

    The next time you see one of these long distance NoVa commuters coming out of their McMansion at 5:30 AM to get to work by 7:30 AM you should run up to them and than them. Thank them for working hard in high school so they could get into a good college. Thank them for the hours they spent studying in college so they could get a good job. Than them for succeeding at their vocation. Thank them for being willing to endure the pain of a long commute in order to bring a surplus of taxes to your community. Tell them you are unworthy to be their neighbor. Offer to babysit their kids the next time their nanny gets sick so they can keep their job and continue to prop up your community.

  51. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – I've been looking at a price list given to me this week by Fairfax County. It's price list for "Tysons Road, Transit Costs (2010-2030) 5-year increments, 2010 $ (April 19, 2010). By 2015, the county needs $128 million for two road projects. By 2020, it needs another $287 M for four road projects. By 2025, $163 M for six road projects. And by 2030, a mere $63 M for one road project. Also, by 2020, it needs $742 M for the grid of streets. Transit costs (not related to Dulles Rail), but for capital and operating costs mainly for buses is $374 M. That's a grand total of $1.762 B.

    Now those are planning costs. How much more will the actual costs be (even in 2010 dollars)?

    And when we are all finished, we have transportation network failure. Who will pay for this? That question has not been answered yet. And is $1.762 billion well spent when, by completion of the projects, we have network failure?

    Moreover, those costs do not include the costs for MWAA to rebuild the storm water facilities, train control facilities and power substations that is building now so the Silver Line can operate — just to Wiehle Ave.

    It's more than elected officials claiming poverty. It will take a lot of $750 K homes without kids to pay those bills.

    TMT

  52. Larry G Avatar

    Darrell – nice job on putting together the data and you are right, it is impressive and it really does demonstrate the impacts of the in flux of growth in the county over the years.

    What has caused the increases is primarily this:

    As a result of our proximity to NoVa – in order to hire an retain teachers, we've have to pay higher and higher salaries to keep pace.

    2nd the folks who come here from NoVa want much more comprehensive course offerings than were originally offered here but were in NoVa and thus a demand that the migrating parents wanted.

    I'm talking of a tripling of so called "electives' and an example is that we used to just offer Spanish I and II for the foreign language elective but now we offer Spanish I-IV, Latin I-IV, French, German, etc.

    Baccalaureate programs. Governor School – you get the picture.

    This year, we finally turned the corner and turned the Middle school and some high school sports into partially-funded user fee programs.

    In short, the influx of growth brought with it people who wanted much better schools and were willing to pay for them.

    Unfortunately, the people who actually live here AND work here do not earn those salaries but if they owned a house – their taxes have more than doubled but their incomes have not.

  53. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – your "creative" calculations of how Spotsylvania should tell the Feds and the State on how to reallocate the spending and re-direct it to funding for our schools is … what can I say.. disengenous as you surely realize that Spotsylvania can no more tell the State and the Feds how much school money to give us than the man in the moon.

    Also, I do not "loath" the NoVa workers in MacMansions as I have fairly regularly informed you that most of them, in fact, do NOT live in MacMansions but in (by NoVa standards) fairly typical subdivision homes but at about 1/2 the cost.

    We'd LOVE more MacMansions as it has been calculated that a 400K house would break even on taxes paid for services for ONE kid.

    The other, non-MacMansion homes come up short to the tune of 8K for the first kid and 10k per kid for the rest and it's no secret, man NoVa workers who want 2 or more kids and Mom at home, simply cannot find affordable housing in NoVa and that's why they come here.

    5% of our school funding comes from the Feds mainly in the form of NCLB and what is known as "Chapter" funding for kids that need more help.

    About 50% of our funds comes from the "state" which returns to us some of the Income and Sales tax that we pay – plus a little more from the composite index – the subsidy from Fairfax – which does not even come close to buy down that 8K per kid loss.

    At the end of the day, my original statement – WITHOUT LOATHING or PREJUDICE is the simple statement that Groveton himself uses – 'facts are troublesome things sometimes'.

    And the facts are clear – in Spotsyvania, each new NoVa worker home with kid requires an 8K annual subsidy from other taxpayers in the county.

    Which is not a bad deal if you also have a kid getting that 8K but not so hot if you are retired and on a fixed income.

    Again, I don't begrudge folks having kids nor seeking the highest quality of life than they can afford – but it does not come free.

    It's all our duty to pay to educate kids.

    We want them to grow up and become well compensated workers who will pay their fair share of taxes and not end up needing govt assistance but it does come at a significant cost to all of us.

    Fairfax/NoVa does not provide enough affordable housing for it's workers and the result is they commute to the exurbs and in doing so require very expensive commuting infrastructure (paid for by others) and 8K per kid subsidy that comes from local workers who earn 1/2 the salary …and fixed income retirees.

    Fairfax is actually richer because they outsource their education costs, eh?

    and ya'll complain about having to subsidize RoVa education, tsk, tsk

    facts are stubborn and troublesome things sometimes.

  54. Groveton Avatar

    "Groveton – your "creative" calculations of how Spotsylvania should tell the Feds and the State on how to reallocate the spending and re-direct it to funding for our schools is … what can I say.. disengenous as you surely realize that Spotsylvania can no more tell the State and the Feds how much school money to give us than the man in the moon.".

    Do you and your neighbors vote in federal and state elections or not?

    Do you insist that the officials you send to Washington and Richmond provide an accounting of all the taxes collected at all levels as well as where the money is spent?

    Do you contribute whatever you can afford to candidates who honestly want to establish transparency in federal, state and local government?

    You and TMT would rather play the victim. Boo, hoo, hoo … my county can't afford people and my neighbors and I can't possibly do anything whatsoever about the national and state government.

  55. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    You will eventually have to do one of two things –

    1. Play the victim forever.

    2. Support the idea that political power and money should be decentralized so that the government which governs closest to the people has the maximum practical level of power. And, as you'll eventually come to see, this includes a substantial dillution of Virginia's absurd Dillon's Rule implementation. Otherwise, you will be forever consigned to whining that, "Spotsylvania can no more tell the State and the Feds how much school money to give us than the man in the moon.".

    You see Larry, if we didn't let the state and feds steal our money in the first place then the locality would be able to spend what makes sense on schools. Spend too much and drive away wage earners with excessive taxes (See: California, New York). Spend too little and you fail to attract job holders (who pay considerable taxes) with children.

    Should Washington make these decisions for you?

    Should Richmond make these decisions for you?

    Or, should Spotsylvania County make those decisions for you?

    As for me, I want Fairfax County making those decisions.

  56. Larry G Avatar

    actually Groveton – we don't boo hoo, we try to do something about it.

    We want to charge appropriate proffers for schools and we'd like impact fees and do you know who is working in Richmond to "undo" proffers and deny impact fees?

    Yup.. the developers .. and others who have the gift of "free speech" … to spend as many dollars as it takes to render our citizen votes moot.

    There is no boo hoo here.

    Nope.

    We're only recounting the facts of the matter.

    We pay.

    We've been paying.

    and we'll continue to pay.

    but we'll also continue to point out that Fairfax/NoVa skim the profits of economic development while not providing adequate affordable family housing, instead outsourcing it to poorer jurisictions then hypocritically complaining that some of their money is sent to jurisdictions who do provide affordable housing to NoVa workers.

    So.. WHO is boo hooing Mr. Home "give us our money back" Rule?

    You want Home Rule?

    ha ha ha….

    you want Home Rule but you want to outsource your costs?

    nice try.

    How about you get Home Rule and you cannot outsource your debts?

    now don't boo hoo…. man up

  57. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    Here is a copy of what I posted on Sen. Petersen's site …

    300 people * $300,000 salary/person/year = $90M in total salary per year.

    Let's just focus on state income taxes and ignore all the other taxes which state and local politicians levy in order to rob Northern Virginians blind while sending vast sums to elsewhere in the state.

    Let's use 5% as the average state income tax rate for people making $300,000 per year.

    That's $4.5M in state income taxes per year from the 300 employees or $15,000 per year per employee. Let's make the simplifing assumption that none of these executives have working spouses. So, $300,000 is annual salary for the executive and the household. The average Virginia household earns $61,233 per year. Let's assume that's a breakeven level for taxes paid vs. services received. The NG executives are making $300,000 – $61,233 = $238,767 more per year than the average Virginia household. The highest income tax bracket in Virginia starts at $17,000 per year so even the average earner is close to the highest earner in perecnt of wages paid in state taxes. Deductions help a bit so let's call the average household income tax rate 4.5%. The average (assumed break – even) household pays $61,233*.045 = $2,755 per year in state taxes. That's $12,245 less than the NG executives.

    By this logic, the 300 NG executives are generating a total of $3,673,500 in surplus income taxes per year.

    What's the present value of $3,673,500? Well, that depends on the discount rate. I think a decent Virginia municipal bond is yielding about 4.75% right now so let's use that as the cost of capital / discount rate.

    Uhh…say there Sen. Petersen, I am getting $77.3M as the discounted cash flow from an annuity of $3,673,500 at 4.75%. And that assumes these people never get raises.

    And you think McDonnell overspent by paying $12M – $14M now for that cash flow?

    If you really believe that McDonnell overspent you might want to consider getting a stockbroker to manage your own finances.

  58. Larry G Avatar

    groveton – I don't recall saying that McDonnell "overspent"… where did you get that?

    did I say that?

  59. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    You just hate the reality of "takers" vs. "producers".

    The people who commute from Spotsy to NoVa are not the only Spotsy residents with children. Instead, they are among the few willing to endure the substantial personal inconvience of long commutes. They do this to earn more money in NoVa than they could earn in Spotsy.

    In other words, they are the "producers". They are carrying the "takers".

    Per-capita income in Spotsy is about $21,000 per year. Meanwhile, the per capita income for Virginia overall is $23,975. So, even with the high salaries coming in from NoVa commuters, Spotsy is a "taker community". Imagine how much worse it would be without those NoVa commuters.

  60. Groveton Avatar

    "groveton – I don't recall saying that McDonnell "overspent"… where did you get that?

    did I say that?"

    I was hoping you could make the relatively easy extrapolation of understanding how big a contribution high income wage earners make to the total tax burden.

    Then, you would see the value of the people who carry the "takers" in Spotsy by making themselves miserable trying to earn a higher income and thereby paying higher taxes.

  61. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – do you think the folks who lived in Spotsy, worked for a living, and paid taxes only for what they could afford – were "takers"?

    Did they start "taking" when the influx of higher earning people insisted that taxes be increased on everyone so their kids could get the education they were accustomed to in NoVa?

    You say "take"

    Spotsy was taking care of it's 8K subsidy when we had far fewer kids an our growth rate was modest.

    The "taking" occurred when the growth rate skyrocketed and the kid ratio with it.. along with the parents who insisted on the expensive educations that they were accustomed to in NoVa.

    So.. for years.. we had a stable population with modest increases in taxes to accommodate our growth..

    until we were invaded by fiscal locusts.. demanding Baccalaureate programs, county-wide 24/7 EMS and wide roads they could clog up twice a day on their "awful" commutes on road they expect others to provide for them.

    I'd say in your world.. the farmer is "taking" when the locusts descend to wipe out his crops… and leave locust poop behind as a "gift".

    Mr. Home Rule – are you advocating keeping the gold and outsourcing the poop and call it a "taking"?

    "producers" yes indeed.

    NoVa sucks at the Fed teat at the rate of $1.66 for every dollar sent – and then lectures the outsource counties for not being similar "producers".

    NoVa entrepreneurial prowess is a legend in your own minds.

    tsk tsk

    you want those Fed tax dollars but then want to outsource your debts…

    shame shame.

  62. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton – I'm not playing the victim. I'm working to do something about it. The real victims are the average residents of Fairfax County, who are fleeced regularly by state and local governments. I'm working to stop the fleecing and, if I could take off my disguise, could show you concrete examples of progress.

    The fools, IMO, are the so-called business leaders, not in the real estate industry, who are supporting the plundering of their companies and employees by the real estate developers. For example, the Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce supported sending an additional $100 million plus to Richmond every year that enabled other localities to reduce their local support for schools. (The Chamber has figured out that, if Fairfax County continues to ship more money south, the so-called Rubes and Hicks will kill any legislation that will negatively affect real estate development in Fairfax County.)

    The Chamber also supports transportation tax increases while ignoring the $200 M annual subsidy to overweight trucks. The Chamber supports higher real estate taxes for everyone so that the Tysons landowners don't need to pay the same extra taxes being paid by the Route 28 landowners. How many of your business acquaintances are paying dues to support this self abuse?

    TMT

  63. Larry G Avatar

    calling a region – "producers" that relies almost totally on sucking at the Federal teat is rich in ironies, no?

    So NoVa sucks up Fed taxes collected from all of Virginia and Kansas and other states and then turns around and disdainfully tells the others to become "producers".

    Groveton – do you know WHY McDonald Douglas is sending executives to the NoVa area?

    Do you think those executives are going to be "producing" airplanes and weapons in NoVa or do you think they might be seeking even more lucrative contracts – paid for by the taxpayers in Spotsylvania an SW Virginia?

    Where do you think those significant taxes you tout being paid by those executives comes from?

    Perhaps the expensive weaponry that said company provides in exchange for the tax dollars collected from ordinary hard-working people who do not make those Fed-funded "producers" in NoVa?

    oh.. Groveton.. have you ever bet on the wrong horse…

  64. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Now you know why Spotsylvania does not like by-right growth and has proffers exceeding 30K per home.

    Well, then they should never have called it "by-right" growth. Taking those rights away now just makes them out to be liars and thieves.

    RH

  65. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The other, non-MacMansion homes come up short to the tune of 8K for the first kid and 10k per kid for the rest and it's no secret

    And what doe that tell other than spotsy residents are not paying enough tax?

    You can prevent all the new home you like but Spotsy still faces the same problem, but with no growth path to get out of it.

    I have to side with Groveton on this. Look at Fauquier and Loudon thirty years ago in terms of percapita income, and per capita assed value (accumulated wealth).

    Thirty years ago they were roughly equal. Fauquier has pursued a strong strategy of limited growth, advertising as Larry does that it "saves money".

    If you look at them today, Loudoun residents pay higher taxes, true enough. But their per capita incom and per capita assed value is now far higher than in Fauquier. In spite of the higher taxes, they are better off, (financially) just as Grovetons numbers indicate.

    The other way to look at is is that they are over all equal in wealth and the difference is the hidden, off budget, cost of conseration to Fauquier residents.

    RH

  66. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    TMT:

    I pay more taxes to Fauquier than I do to Fairfax. If I'm being fleeced in Fairfax I'm getting F'd in Fauquier.

    RH

  67. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Groveton's right again. The best thing that ever happened to Fauquier is growth in Loudon. Fauquier gets a lot of its dollars from people who work in other counties.

    It gets a lot of its dollars from people who don't work, too.

    RH

  68. Larry G Avatar

    " And what doe that tell other than spotsy residents are not paying enough tax?"

    in whose opinion?

    do you think the folks who not only live in Spotsylvania but work there for 1/2 of NoVa salaries is going to agree to pay higher and higher taxes so that people who earn twice as much can move to Spotsy?

    I don't think so.

    the answer to this is simple.

    just say no to more growth and throw out any BOS who disagrees.

  69. Larry G Avatar

    do you think that because a person's property is worth more that they earn any more to pay the increased taxes on it?

    What if they are on a fixed income or barely make enough to pay their bills because they work locally?

    What then?

    Move out?

    well.. they have a different concept.

    it's called.. vote out an BOS that "thieves" THEIR money at the same time claiming they are "better off" because the county can raise taxes on their property.

    This is so ironic.

    "Mr Property Rights" is perfectly willing to not only rob those who cannot afford it but it's just fine with him if they have to give up their property because they can no longer afford the taxes on it.

    "Mr property rights" indeed.

  70. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    You math doesn't work (in fact, it never works).

    NoVa commuters constitute a majority of voters in Spotsylvania County? Then why is Spotsy's per capita income still below the state average?

    In 2002, Spotsy spent $8,393 per student. Henrico County spent $6,847 that year. By 2009, Spotsy was spending $10,833 while Henrico was spending $9,469. Using the CPI as an inflator, Spotsy's cost/student increased $833 in real terms while Henrico's cost per student increased $1,311.

    Feel free to check my math:

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tv4OWILqD4k1EfVH479eNIg&hl=en#

    Are the NoVa commuters driving up Henrico's costs too? Or, are all education costs inflating faster than the CPI?

    In fact, during a time when many NoVa commuters moved to Spotsy, their costs per student grew more slowly than a county into which we can fairly say no NoVa commuters moved.

    LarryG – the truth will set you free.

  71. Larry G Avatar

    We're sorry, "larry" does not have permission to access this spreadsheet.

    so I presume your math is about equal to your ability to share a spreadsheet – lacking?

    tee hee

  72. Groveton Avatar

    "do you think the folks who not only live in Spotsylvania but work there for 1/2 of NoVa salaries is going to agree to pay higher and higher taxes so that people who earn twice as much can move to Spotsy?".

    Income taxes are tied to … well … income. In fact, they are graduated. The NoVa commuters are paying more than twice the income taxes if they make twice the dollars. And that has nothing to do with what the people who live and work in Spotsy pay.

    Real estate taxes are indexed to the assessed value of the property. If group A makes twice as much money as group B then the people in group A usually live in more expensive houses than the people in group B. Therefore, they pay higher real estate taxes. This is also independent of the people in the lower income group.

    LarryG just doesn't like progress. When I was born, Fairfax County had about the same population density as Chesterfield County today. 15 years before I was born Fairfax County was a serious dairy farm locale.

    Not a lot of dairy farms here anymore. And, the population density has increased by about 4.5X.

    "do you think the folks who not only live in Spotsylvania but work there for 1/2 of NoVa salaries is going to agree to pay higher and higher taxes so that people who earn twice as much can move to Spotsy?

    I don't think so."

    Yep, that's the answer. Of course, you'll sell you property at an immense profit as you head off to Florida to retire so it's not all bad.

    "just say no to more growth and throw out any BOS who disagrees.".

    Too late, I guess. According to your logic the NoVa commuters have already taken over and are forcing you to spend more on education. So, I'd guess you pseudo-local yokels (pseudo since you weren't born in Spotys – you were once part of the "excessive growth problem" yourself) have lost.

    Maybe retreat into the middle of West Virginia? You could live to be 110 and the suburbs won't catch you there.

  73. Larry G Avatar

    here's a more complete picture:

    the first is Spotsy, the 2nd the state:

    Persons per household, 2000 Spotsy = 2.87 state = 2.54

    Median household income, 2008 $77,461 $61,210

    Per capita money income, 1999 $22,536 $23,975

    the per capita is indicative of the huge spread in salaries between NoVa workers and local workers but the date renders the relevance moot.

    here' some more data:

    " Spotsylvania expended $1,926 per capita… $186, 10.7%, higher than the state average per capita spending of $1,740."

    this is 2008 data

    http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/emplibrary/Budget/Annual_budgets/FY2008/APA%20report.pdf

    page 11

    and ya'll persist in the misguided belief that 1% of the sales tax belongs to NoVa an not the State who enacted it specifically to meet it's Constitution mandate to provide equal access to a minimum basic education to all kids – and the state also MANDATES the local minimum match – which again is determined by the state – not the locality.

    If the locality does not allocate the amount required by the State, the AG is mandated to get the money from them.

    The Department of Education website has a complete list of how much money each locality gets and their minimum mandated match.. if ya'll want the link.

  74. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG –

    I jumped on a video chat with Google. It seems their standard sanity filters were preventing you from accessing the spreadsheet. They said something about lots of complaints about some guy named LarryG.

    I vouched for you.

    Try again.

    As an aside – if you could provide me with the links to the spreadsheets with the facts which underlie your arguments it would be greatly appreciated.

  75. Larry G Avatar

    re: " So, I'd guess you pseudo-local yokels (pseudo since you weren't born in Spotys – you were once part of the "excessive growth problem" yourself) have lost."

    nope. a funny thing happened on the way to the bank…

    NoVa folks who moved here don't like higher taxes either and just like the hypocrites they are.. once they get here.. they wail about how the place has changed with all the "newcomers".

    That's the thing about a "come here".. they start off saying.. "when I first arrived in 1992… it was a nice rural county.. and NOW.. it's a mess… like they had nothing to do with it turning into a mess"

    Oh. and THEN.. they threaten to leave to find the place they were hoping this place was.. never once understanding the influence they had on the "mess".

    for NoVa folks – "it's all about me and what I want"..

    and "producers" ?

    ha ha ha

    the lot of them are GS umptee scratches or contractors working for those GS umptee scratches…

    NoVa refugees are demanding ingrates…

    they move down.. crap up the county demand more expensive schools, 24/7 EMS, and subsidized VRE and "Smart Benfits commuting subsidies from the Feds (at $2400 a year) … ..then complain about how terrible their commute is, while those who have lived here all their lives are "invited" to move elsewhere…if we no longer can afford to live here.

    and that's called "progress".

  76. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – on your spreadsheet..

    did you go through the dialog to make the link public – as opposed to specific user permissions?

    you'd need my private email to give me permission but you could give me the public link which only those who see it here could get to it.

  77. Groveton Avatar

    "an not the State who enacted it specifically to meet it's Constitution mandate to provide equal access to a minimum basic education to all kids.."

    There is no such mandate in either the US or Virginia constitutions.

    Sorry LarryG but you are wrong yet again…

    http://oxroadsouth.com/2010/01/19/fighting-the-lci-freeze-on-the-senate-floor-2.aspx

    The LCI is a state law – nothing mandated by the constitution or ordered by the courts.

    LarryG – it's almost a full time job clearing up your misconceptions.

  78. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – I would direct your attention to the Virginia Constitution which as a NoVa Home Rule advocate, you are apparently astonishingly ignorant:

    ARTICLE VIII – Education
    Section 1. Public schools of high quality to be maintained.

    Section 2. Standards of quality; State and local support of public schools.

    Section 3. Compulsory education; free textbooks.
    Section 4. Board of Education.
    Section 5. Powers and duties of the Board of Education.
    Section 6. Superintendent of Public Instruction.
    Section 7. School boards.
    Section 8. The Literary Fund.

  79. Groveton Avatar

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AncLi32ZzSCZdHY0T1dJTHFENGsxRWZWSDQ3OWVOSWc&hl=en

    Maybe this link will work. I like Google but I am definitely suffereing from a 20 year addiction to Microsoft.

  80. Groveton Avatar

    "ARTICLE VIII – Education
    Section 1. Public schools of high quality to be maintained.".

    Which could be easily accomplished by insisting that each locality pay sufficient taxes to educate their own children.

    Sorry but the locality welfare payment known as the LCI is purely an invention of the General Assembly.

  81. Larry G Avatar

    no dice… make your link public.. ..

    take it from someone who "rolls" with cloud commuting….and
    a longtime user of GOGGLE DOCS.

    click on the SHARE then read carefully the choices…

    keep at it old boy. you'll eventually get it…

    free advice from "geezer Gross"

  82. Larry G Avatar

    Groveton – did you read the section that says SOQs?

    " Standards of quality for the several school divisions shall be determined and prescribed from time to time by the Board of Education, subject to revision only by the General Assembly.
    The General Assembly shall determine the manner in which funds are to be provided for the cost of maintaining an educational program meeting the prescribed standards of quality, and shall provide for the apportionment of the cost of such program between the Commonwealth and the local units of government comprising such school divisions. Each unit of local government shall provide its portion of such cost by local taxes or from other available funds"

    now make sure you understand this part:

    " he General Assembly shall determine the manner in which funds are to be provided for the cost of maintaining an educational program meeting the prescribed standards of quality, and shall provide for the apportionment of the cost of such program between the Commonwealth and the local units of government comprising such school divisions."

    then this:

    " Standards of quality for the several school divisions shall be determined and prescribed from time to time by the Board of Education, subject to revision only by the General Assembly. "

    now fess up.. who did not know the facts here?

    why should I believe what you say are the "facts" when you are apparently blissfully unaware of them?

    tweak tweak

    now.. I do expect you to have some crow here…

  83. Larry G Avatar

    maybe you should get in touch with your buddy cucci to challenge the constitutionality of this…

  84. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG – Where are the letters LCI or Local Composite Index mentioned?

    They aren't.

    The General Assembly could apportion the costs in many different ways. For example, they could decide that each jurisdiction has to meet 80% of their educational costs locally. Or, 90%. Or, 100%.

    Tim Kaine tried to freeze the LCI. If the LCI were enshrined in the Virginia Constitution then even Timmy the friendly ghost wouldn't have suggested changing it without so much as a vote of the General Assembly.

    Mark Warner led a dishonest but successful effort to change the LCI formula without any change to the Virginia constitution.

    There is absolutely no constitutional requirement that requires Fairfax County to send $1.00 in taxes to Richmond only to get $.20 back.

    In case you wondered:

    "to calculate the LCI, fifty percent of the true value of real property, forty percent of the gross income, and ten percent of sales tax collections of each locality are totaled and then weighted two-thirds by average daily membership and one-third by population.

    Average Daily Student Membership Component=

    .5 [((Local True Property Value)/(Local ADM))/ ((Total Statewide True Property Values)/ (Statewide ADM))]

    +.4 [((Adjusted Gross Income)/ (Local ADM))/ ((Total Statewide AGI)/ (Statewide ADM))]

    +.1 [((Local Taxable Retail Sales)/ (Local ADM))/ ((Total Statewide Taxable Retail Sales)/ (Statewide ADM))]

    Overall Local Population Component=

    .5 [((Local True Property Values)/ (Local Population))/ ((Total Statewide True Property Values)/ (Statewide Population))]

    +.4 [((Adjusted Gross Income)/ (Local Population))/ ((Total Statewide AGI)/ (Statewide Population))]

    +.1 [((Local Taxable Retail Sales)/ (Local Population))/ ((Total Statewide Taxable Retail Sales)/ (Statewide Population))]

    Local Composite Index =
    ((.6667 x ADM Component) + (.3333 x Local Population Component)) x 0.45

    Every two years the LCI is recalculated as all of the information can change. The LCI for Fairfax County Public School for 2008-2010 is .7657. This means that Fairfax County must pay 76.57% of its own basic education. Or, in other words, out of every $100 in public education costs, Fairfax County pays $76.57 while the state pays $23.43 for public education.

    There are 136 localities and out of all of those only 10 have an LCI higher than Fairfax County. These ten are Arlington (.8000), Bath (.8000), Goochland (.8000), Rappahannock (.8000), Alexandria (.8000), Falls Church (.8000), Fredericksburg (.7943), Williamsburg (.8000), Fairfax City (.8000), and Lancaster (.7824). On the other end, Lee county has an LCI of .1552 (only has to pay 15.52% of its own basic education), Sussex County has an LCI of .2799 (only has to pay 27.99% of its own basic education), Danville has an LCI of .2394 (paying 23.94% of its own basic education.".

    Where in the constitution is this language?

  85. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "15 years before I was born Fairfax County was a serious dairy farm locale."

    As I understand it from a remote member of the family, the Hazels originally had a dairy farm where Georgetown is today, and they later moved it to near Baileys Crossroad, and then near Tysons.

    Aside from being avaricious developers, the Hazels also represent local people who made good as a result of progress.

    I have to agree with Groveton again, on his analysis. The reason existing, lower income taxpayers wind up paying more is that the standards have increased: if they have to build or upgrade a school, they will have higher school coxts, just to be competitive. Also, the infrastructure was never fully funded to begin with and debts previously pushed off are now catching up.

    We see the same thing happening to "planned communities" which now try to charge new members but not previous ones additional initiation fees.

    Larry argues this as if it had to do with money and infrastructure, but Groveton is correct, it is only about preventing progress which is mistakenly viewed as promoting conservation.

    Even if a developer agrees to every stipuation put forward by the county, if they fail to have the desired effect, the county can still turn them down, unless it finally develoves to only by-right development.

    And the board objects to even that because they have no control.

    Control is what it boils down to, and if Spotsy wants control they can by the land and control it to theri hearts content. There is nothing to prevent that.

    Except, then they would find it costs them more than deeloping the land would, which defeats their own starting argument.

    Fauquier county once found themselves in exactly this position with a piece of surplus land. They developed it. I think for low income housing.

    RH

  86. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The LCI, in and of itself, is not evil. There should be some mechanism to ensure truly poor areas of the state can offer a reasonably good public education. Fairfax County cannot expect to avoid paying some of those costs.

    But the LCI has two huge faults – one, it ignores cost differences among local jurisdictions. It costs a lot more for everything in NoVA than in most parts of RoVA. Also, Groveton's $750 K buys very different houses throughout the commonwealth. A house comparable to the $750 K Fairfax County home costs much, much less in many areas. Yet, the formula focuses on the absolute value of housing and, hence, real estate tax revenues. That's wrong and unfair.

    Second, the LCI ignores the issue of whether a locality actually makes a good faith effort to raise money locally. There is no minimum local effort required. So many local governments keep their local property taxes low on the backs of NoVA taxpayers. That's wrong and unfair.

    Beyond this is a Fairfax County problem — dumb and lazy voters who don't bother to complain when their elected representatives agree to plans that send even more money south because more pennies will flow north. I've heard people say, "We need the state to spend much more money on public education," without understanding that this means more revenue being shipped from Fairfax County to the rest of the state.

    Fortunately, the hard times has caused a growing number of Fairfax County residents to take the time to learn about the perverse relationship with Richmond and to oppose solutions that send dollars south in exchange for more pennies coming north. Hope springs eternal!

    TMT

  87. Mimi Stratton Avatar
    Mimi Stratton

    I wonder how much of a tax subsidy McDonnell gave Northrop to move to NoVa. And for how long. And I wonder if that arrangement will ever be audited to determine if it makes sense.

  88. Mimi Stratton Avatar
    Mimi Stratton

    The work at home option, along with advancing videoconferencing technology is becoming more viable. Groveton has brought up the trust/performance/outsourcing issues. Granted, any technology job that can be done offshore is guaranteed to be outsourced, if not today, then very soon. A knowledge worker is in a better position. I always thought the best hybrid would be: work at home 2/3 days/week, come in 2 days/week for meetings, meet & greet, etc. Managers really seem to need their face time to feel secure.

  89. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    LarryG – it's almost a full time job clearing up your misconceptions.

    I don't think they are misconceptions.

    Larry knows the facts but prefers to spread disinformation which he believes is in his interest. What Bacon calls agenda driven drivel.

    It is a full time job to rectify this, which is why EMR thinks someone is paying me for my feeble efforts to dig through the crap for the pony underneath.

  90. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    And I wonder if that arrangement will ever be audited to determine if it makes sense.

    Ah yes, my old argument surfaces.

    Total cost = Production Cost + External Cost + Government Cost

    in this case Total Cost = Northrup Costs for moving and doing business + Cost of externalities such as Larry and TMT complain about + government cost in tax giveaways and future losses in productivity because of infrastructure lag in other locations induced by tax giveaways.

    And you are right, it needs to be audited to see if the tax giveays still make sense in the future, even if they pass muster today.

    RH

  91. Larry G Avatar

    re: "Where in the constitution is this language?"

    …" The General Assembly shall provide for a system of free public elementary and secondary schools for all children of school age throughout the Commonwealth, and shall seek to ensure that an educational program of high quality is established and continually maintained.

    Section 2. Standards of quality; State and local support of public schools.

    Standards of quality for the several school divisions shall be determined and prescribed from time to time by the Board of Education, subject to revision only by the General Assembly. "

    what part of the Constitution is unclear to you?

  92. Larry G Avatar

    again… what part of the Constitution that explicitly tasks the GA to develop a process for funding public schools by delegating the Education Dept to recommend to it that process which they did develop called the LCI?

    What mechanism would you use instead of the Constitution delegation of that duty to the GA?

    Each state has their own method.

    this is ours.

    You have the right to advocate for a different method.. to vote for or against those you want to and to mount a legal challenge.. to the methods..even the Constitution.

    Not a soul is preventing anyone from showing how the current system is wrong and to recommend reform…

    you can even advocate for a Constitutional Amendment or get Chap Peterson to submit legislation to exempt NoVa from the rule.

    LOTS and LOTS of options except the one where they take your idea and use it to replace the existing one – just on your word.

    but essentially claiming that the GA is not empowered to do this is …. well… what is it?

    better check with Cucci again… perhaps he will render an opinion that the Va Constitution or the GA is null and void…

    I take Groveton's Home Rule to be "Governance my way" similar to Ray's school of thought.

    which is based on the delusional idea that NoVa's largesses is the fruit of hard-earned entrepreneurial skill rather than the old lips around the govt teat trick.

    $1.66 comes back to NoVa for every dollar they send to Washington.

    Oh what I wouldn't give to have Spotsylvania get that deal and then look down my nose at those other slothful jurisdictions.

  93. Groveton Avatar

    "but essentially claiming that the GA is not empowered to do this is …. well… what is it?".

    I don't claim that at all.

    I claim that the GA can use many different formulae and still meet the requirement. I claim no court designed the LCI and forced it on the GA. This is not analagous to court ordered bussing. The GA has wide latitude.

    I contend that the GA uses the excessively complex and opaque LCI to buy votes by over-subsidizing certain jurisdictions.

    I contend that NoVa's state legislators are complicit in this becuase they want funding for re-election from the PACs run by their state parties. So, they play the "see no evil, hear no evil" game and we (the voters) let them do it.

    I contend that having your expenses paid by others is a lot different than having a job working for the government. A sargeant in the US Air Force is not on welfare because his paycheck says "United States of America" at the top. I would be very happy if Virginia's "welfare localities" required their citizens to work 2 hours a day answering phone calls from people calling the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles as a method of paying for their subsidies. Then, they would be working to earn the money instead of just being handed the money.

    I contend that subsidizing jurisdictions which cannot generate sufficient economic activity to pay for the basic services needed by their citizens is counter-productive. It encourages people to remain in places where there is high un and under employment when those people shoud be encouraged to relocate to areas where there is more demand for labor.

    I contend that the government which governs closest to the people governs best. I have no problem with the good people of Spotsylvania County completely stopping all development so long as they pay for their own citizen services with their own taxes. Note: I think they should try to bring government jobs to the county – either state or federal. Of course, this would run counter to their apparent goal of no growth.

    "Oh what I wouldn't give to have Spotsylvania get that deal and then look down my nose at those other slothful jurisdictions.". If that were to happen, some people would be gainfully employed in Fairfax County on non-government jobs. Many would move to Spotsylvania County to gain employment there. Some particularly lazy people would refuse to move despite the lack of econonic opportunity and would whine on and on about how those willing to endure personal inconvienience and relocate should subsidize them. You and I both would look down our noses at those people. I would oppose the payment of subsidies to those people since it would be a futile effort that robbed investment from viable localities (which, in this case, would include Spotsylvania County) in order to temporarily fund an unsustainable structure.

    What else can I answer for you today LarryG?

  94. Larry G Avatar

    You did a pretty good job – all things considered…

    you should consider politics.

    Groveton – I'm pretty sure that no one asked to be born in those areas of weak economic capability.

    I generally agree with you about NOT subsidizing continued systemic dependency on the govt and that's why a good education for those kids born in poor economic circumstances is to your benefit and mine.

    If those kids do not have the education that allows them to leave and go compete for a better life, they will stay there and expect "assistance" from you – not for 12 years while they get smarts but for their entire lives…

    so ..I think you're a smart man for sure.. so I'm pretty puzzled by your shortsighted tendencies…

    so how about it.

    how would you go about "fixing" the economically slothful locations in Va beyond making them impersonate India call centers…with better accents?

  95. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    There is nothing wrong with living a simple life, I know people who earn far less than I, but they seem happy enough with their life.

    Maybe we just expect too much. maybe full time, full support jobs for everyone is an idea of the past. Earning less and using less is one way to reduce our impact on the planet, as EMR points out.

    Or else, someone has got to live in those places, maybe we just need to find a way to pay them enough for the job that they do.

  96. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Note: I think they should try to bring government jobs to the county – either state or federal. Of course, this would run counter to their apparent goal of no growth."

    Precisely. I once spoke with a mand who wanted to open a business in Fauquier. A board member questioned him (in private) about how many workers he would need and where would they come from.

    The gentleman in question got the message and took his business elsewhere.

    As far as the board was concerned, it was mission accpomplished.

    RH

    RH

  97. Larry G Avatar

    saying "no growth" with respect to a county that went from 15,000 to 125,000 is pretty hilarious.

    NOW.. they say – Managed Growth – 2% a year…

    that's more than a 1000 money-losing new residential a year – inevitable tax increases…

    That's hardly "no growth".

  98. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "I contend that NoVa's state legislators are complicit in this becuase they want funding for re-election from the PACs run by their state parties. So, they play the 'see no evil, hear no evil' game and we (the voters) let them do it."

    AMEN!

    TMT

  99. Groveton Avatar

    Groveton – I'm pretty sure that no one asked to be born in those areas of weak economic capability.

    Probably not. My grandfather didn't ask to be born in coal mining town in Kentucky. When he got back from WWI he went to the promise land … Detroit.

    My Dad didn't ask to be born in Detroit. When the Navy stationed him in DC he decided to stay after he got out.

    I didn't ask to be born in DC but, so far, so good. My kids were all born here too. Last two generations in one place event since my grandfather was born in Kentucky in the late 1800s.

    There's a reason it's called chasing the American dream rather than waiting for the American dream to find you.

    "how would you go about "fixing" the economically slothful locations in Va beyond making them impersonate India call centers…with better accents?".

    Pay the people to leave. Offer subsidized housing (for a while) in a place where there is economic opportunity. Use public funds to buy their property, bulldoze the houses and turn it back into forest and parkland. Just what the mayor of Detroit wants to do. And he's a liberal, Democratic leader who has been honored for his work in civil rights. He's lived in Detroit since he began playing for the Pistons in 1966. Of course Der Bingster was born in DC so he has a certain innate displined common sense typical of those born in that city.

    One time subsidies? Fine. Temporary subsidies? Probably fine (so long as temporary doesn't get to be too long). Permanent subsidies? Economic suicide.

    Don't California Virginia.

  100. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    that's more than a 1000 money-losing new residential a year – inevitable tax increases…

    And why are they money losing residences?

    Because residences don't pay enough tax.

    And why are they money losing famrs? because farms pay twice as much intaxes as they get in services.

    The problem isn't residences: the problem is the tax structure. the problem is existeing residences which now want to become free riders.

    (Oh yeah, and the money losing argument, is probably bogus).

    RH

  101. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Use public funds to buy their property, bulldoze the houses and turn it back into forest and parkland. Just what the mayor of Detroit wants to do. And he's a liberal, Democratic leader who has been honored for his work in civil rights.

    What a novel conservation idea. Free market and civil rights both protected, and youget as much forest and parkland as you can afford.

    Isn't that what they did with the GW Forest?

    RH

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